Talabani’s Kirkuk proposal softens relations between Ankara and Iraqi Kurds

[Canadian2urk]

Iraqi President Jalal Talabani’s proposal to Turkey to send a delegation to the strategically important northern Iraqi city of Kirkuk, the future of which Ankara has serious concerns about due to a huge recent influx of Iraqi Kurds, was considered by the Turkish capital as “a positive sign clearly showing Iraqi Kurds want a better relationship with Turkey.”

http://medya.todayszaman.com/todayszaman/2007/03/31/erdogan-talabani.jpg
Riyadh was the venue for Talabani’s proposal earlier this week when he met with Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, who reiterated Turkey’s unease over developments in Kirkuk. Talabani answered him: “Is there a mistake that the Iraqis have made in regards to Kirkuk? Send a delegation; let them carry out investigations in Kirkuk. Let them look into whether the records of deeds have been erased. Let them carry out demographic studies. The base for these deeds is in Baghdad. Let Turkey’s consulate in Mosul look into this.”

Ankara is worried that Iraqi Kurds are trying to take control of Kirkuk as part of their push for an independent state on Turkey’s border and has repeatedly urged power-sharing among ethnic groups in the oil-rich city. Kirkuk lies just south of the Kurdish autonomous region stretching across Iraq’s northeast. Kurdish leaders want to annex the city. Iraq’s constitution calls for a census and referendum on the issue by the end of this year.

As of Friday, Foreign Ministry officials said that there was currently no concrete plans for sending such a delegation to Kirkuk. “It is a fact that Talabani’s proposal is in itself a positive step reflecting the Iraqi Kurds’ willingness for having a better, milder and -- most importantly -- appropriate relationship with Turkey,” a senior diplomat told Today’s Zaman, speaking on the condition of anonymity.

Kirkuk is an ancient city that was once part of the Ottoman Empire, with a large minority of ethnic Turkmens as well as Shiite and Sunni Arabs, Armenians and Assyrians. Since the US-led invasion in 2003, Kurdish forces in northern Iraq have rallied to reverse what they claim to be the Arabization policy of Saddam Hussein, which purged Kirkuk and other oil-rich Kurdish areas and replaced Kurds with Arab settlers.

Thousands of Kurdish settlers from northern Iraq have flooded back into Kirkuk, colonizing the city’s desert outskirts. Many believe the influx is a bid to change the city’s ethnic balance ahead of a 2007 census and referendum to decide whether Kirkuk will be annexed to Iraq’s autonomous Kurdistan region.

When reminded of possible interpretations of Talabani’s proposal, such as the Iraqi Kurds using a delegation sent by Turkey to the city for legitimizing their inappropriate activities, the same diplomat sounded confident and firm as on their position: “Ankara has no such worries because Turkey’s stance regarding Kirkuk is very well known by the Iraqi Kurds as well as by the international community.”

Meanwhile, it is still a subject of debate whether there had been any understanding over such proposal of inviting a Turkish delegation to Kirkuk between Talabani and Iraqi Kurdish leader Massoud Barzani, president of the de facto autonomous Kurdish region in northern Iraq, prior to Talabani’s meeting with Erdoğan in Riyadh.

However Ankara-based analysts underline that Barzani has recently become aware that the situation in Kirkuk is becoming a center of focus in the international community more and more. Barzani has also become aware that the situation in Kirkuk has had a negative impact on the image of Iraqi Kurds in eyes of the international community, convincing him to give consent to this proposal, one analyst said.

The prime minister already greeted Talabani’s suggestion with pleasure, saying a delegation would be sent, confirming that Ankara will be “analyzing this and making a decision very soon.” Erdoğan, who confirmed that his meeting with Talabani had gone well, was quoted as telling Turkish journalists on his way back from Riyadh: “Talabani told me ‘We need Turkey. We cannot deny everything you have done for us. We have made some mistakes, but then, so have you.’ They are particularly uncomfortable with the polemic that appears in the media. I reminded him that I had called him, as the prime minister of Turkey, while he was in the hospital.”

Dialogue with Iraqi leaders has become a matter of political controversy in Turkey after Chief of General Staff Gen. Yaşar Büyükanıt, during a recent visit to the US capital, said he would not meet Iraqi Kurdish leaders because they supported the outlawed Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK). The issue turned divisive when the government expressed intent to have talks with the same leaders to discuss security issues with Iraq. But tension cooled off after a meeting of the influential National Security Council (MGK), which groups the president, top military commanders and the government leaders, late last month. A statement released after the meeting expressed backing for “intensified diplomatic efforts,” something that has been widely interpreted as a green light for talks with the Iraqi Kurds.


http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?
load=detay&link=107055 (http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=107055)

[Canadian2urk]

on related news...


Relocation plan for Kirkuk Arabs

By Jim Muir
BBC News, Baghdad
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/999999.gif

The Iraqi government is to encourage Arab settlers in the city of Kirkuk in the north of the country to return to their original homes further south.

The measure is called for in an article of the new Iraqi constitution dealing with the ethnically mixed city. During Saddam Hussein's rule, Arabs were settled in the oil-rich province at the expense of Kurds and Turkomans.

A referendum on joining the other three provinces recognised as Iraqi Kurdistan is to be held this year.
Kirkuk is one of the most emotionally charged and potentially explosive issues in Iraq.

The Kurds see it as their natural capital. They want to see the oil-rich province attached to Iraqi Kurdistan - an idea resisted by many Arabs and Turkomans.

Mounting violence

Article 140 of the new constitution sets out procedures which the Kurds hope will achieve their goal.

It envisages a referendum before the end of the year, but first a normalisation process whereby parts of the province hived off by Saddam Hussein would be returned.

Arabs from the south settled there by him would be encouraged to return to their original homes and Kurds, Turkomans and others who were driven out allowed to come back.

Now the cabinet has approved proposals for the Arab settlers to be offered inducements to move out. They are to be given the equivalent of $15,000 each plus a plot of land in their place of origin.
The process is supposed to be entirely voluntary. Application forms are to be distributed for those who want to take part. But Sunni Arabs and others in the Iraqi cabinet opposed the step and tensions are rising on the ground in Kirkuk itself, where violence has been mounting.

Neighbouring Turkey, which regards itself as the guardian of Iraq's Turkoman minority, has also warned of the consequences of a Kurdish takeover of Kirkuk.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6515291.stm

[NewsMan]

My concern is that everything I read, including this, suggests Turkey is NOT interested in Kirkuk being in the Kurdish zone, period. No matter what happens, if the vote is for inclusion, the Turks will cry foul. In other words, the only possible solution (according to Ankara) is that Kirkuk IS NOT in the zone:

"Ankara is worried that Iraqi Kurds are trying to take control of Kirkuk as part of their push for an independent state..."

So I wonder, what will happen when the vote passes?

[Desk Jockey]

My concern is that everything I read, including this, suggests Turkey is NOT interested in Kirkuk being in the Kurdish zone, period. No matter what happens, if the vote is for inclusion, the Turks will cry foul. In other words, the only possible solution (according to Ankara) is that Kirkuk IS NOT in the zone:

"Ankara is worried that Iraqi Kurds are trying to take control of Kirkuk as part of their push for an independent state..."

So I wonder, what will happen when the vote passes?

We often disagree but no way in hell Turkey will let Kirkuk go into the Kurdish zone. Even with a vote, there will be some clause or diplo speak, this issue is to important to Ankara.

[annihilation]

We often disagree but no way in hell Turkey will let Kirkuk go into the Kurdish zone. Even with a vote, there will be some clause or diplo speak, this issue is to important to Ankara.

Why wont they "allow" kirkuk into the kurdish zone?

If I remember right, kirkuk is a region in Iraq with heavy oil fields and there is a fight between the sunni and kurds (politically over who controls it), or am I wrong? Personally, kurds are the only friends we have in iraq so I would be happy to see them get the kirkuk region.

[IraGlacialis]

At least there is some dialogue between the two groups.

[Argyll]

Again, this really has nothing to do with Turkey, this is an issue for the Iraqi people only!!

[IraGlacialis]

Again, this really has nothing to do with Turkey, this is an issue for the Iraqi people only!!
Still, if Iraq fractures and Kurdistan becomes independent, the dialogue shown gives hope that there will not be a negative confrontation between Turkey and Kurdistan.

[Ergnkon]

Again, this really has nothing to do with Turkey, this is an issue for the Iraqi people only!!

Then why don't the kurds allow the rest of the Iraqi nation vote in the Kirkuk referandum? Doesn't Kirkuk belong to Iraq now??. Whole Iraq should be involved with such an important decision....not only the kurds in Kirkuk and the kurds brought in from outside of the Iraq's borders.

Think about it ;)


Still, if Iraq fractures and Kurdistan becomes independent, the dialogue shown gives hope that there will not be a negative confrontation between Turkey and Kurdistan.

As long as they harbour terrorist PKK and supponser them against Turkey, there will be.

P.S. Erdogan to go by the next elections in November 2007.

[Argyll]

I agree with you.

[IraGlacialis]

I agree with you.
Ergnkon or me?

[Ergnkon]

Ergnkon or me?

I think with me.

Anyone with a logic would want the whole Iraqi nation to vote for Kirkuk's future...not only the kurds (and whatever is left of the Turkomans and Arabs). Kurds have been playing so much with the demographics of Kirkuk in their favor since the invasion (they even remove the headstones from the Turkoman grave yards) that the results are already known by Turkey..and anyone who follows the situation closely (incl. UN)

[Eusebius]

Isn't how they [Iraqis] resolve it altogether not an issue for Turkey to decided upon? If Iraq decides that only Kurds will vote on the issue, or only Sunnis, or only Shias, or all of them, it really is THEIR decision.

Maybe if Turkey had been at all helpful with the 2003 campaign, the US might have been more inclined to pressure the Iraqis on a solution that would be more favorable to Turkey's concerns. However, no one has a time machine, and Turkey will simply have to deal with this situation as it emerges without US aid, but with the understanding that military violations of Iraqi territory will invite a similar response from the United States.


Then why don't the kurds allow the rest of the Iraqi nation vote in the Kirkuk referandum? Doesn't Kirkuk belong to Iraq now. Whole Iraq should be involved with such an important decision....not only the kurds in Kirkuk and the kurds brought in from outside of the Iraq's borders.

[Ergnkon]

Isn't how they [Iraqis] resolve it altogether not an issue for Turkey to decided upon? If Iraq decides that only Kurds will vote on the issue, or only Sunnis, or only Shias, or all of them, it really is THEIR decision.

That's because no one could guess the kurds were going to change the demographics of that city the way they did...just to guartee it, they even import kurds from the nighboring countries..including Turkey.


Maybe if Turkey had been at all helpful with the 2003 campaign, the US might have been more inclined to pressure the Iraqis on a solution that would be more favorable to Turkey's concerns. However, no one has a time machine, and Turkey will simply have to deal with this situation as it emerges without US aid. Too bad.



That's democracy for you...the kind you're trying to install in Iraq...remember?

People's parliament voted no...that's it.

[intikam]

Again, this really has nothing to do with Turkey, this is an issue for the Iraqi people only!!

quite wrong...

actually Türkiye would wish to be not effected from northern iraq...
if northern iraq was in 10.000 kilometer away from Türkiye it wouldnt be problem..

there is 400 km border ...also there ARE teror ORGANİSATİON and TURKMEN PEOPLE historical connections etc..

may be you dont know northern iraq was part of land Ottoman empire...

US UK Poland Canada even japan etc are in iraq ..No one of them is mideastern country...no one has got land and people in ME...
but all of them tell what Turkiye should do...is it fair?is it justice?

enteresting side is majority of them allies with Türkiye in NATO...

actually l would like to see supporting our allies about northern iraq issue...

[NewsMan]

Even the Iraqi government thinks it should be returned to what it was:
4/1/2007
BAGDHAD (*******) - Iraq's cabinet has decided to pay compensation to Arab families forced by Saddam Hussein to move to Kirkuk if they leave the northern oil-rich city voluntarily, government sources said on Saturday.

ADVERTISEMENT

The sources said the cabinet agreed on Thursday to pay Arab families 20 million dinars ($15,000) each and give them a piece of land if they returned to their original towns.

"This decision does not need parliament ratification. It is effective immediately," one government official said.

The move was welcomed by Kurdish officials but angered some Shi'ite and Sunni Arab parliamentarians who, at a news conference in Baghdad, said it violated the constitution.

Sitting on one of the world's richest oil fields and just outside the borders of the largely autonomous Kurdistan region, Kirkuk could become a regional flashpoint. Kurds want to incorporate the city into their region.

Under Saddam, Kirkuk was subject to an "Arabisation" policy that drove many Kurds from their homes and brought in Arabs, mostly Shi'ite Muslims from the south.

A government official said families would be "encouraged" to leave Kirkuk. "No one will be forced to leave, it is voluntary," he said.

Iraq is expected to settle Kirkuk's final status in a referendum by the end of the year although officials have said such a step might increase violence.

Since the U.S. invasion of 2003, many Kurds have returned and Turkmen and Arabs in the city now complain of "ethnic cleansing."

This isn't a Kurdish thing, it's an Iraqi decision. I just found out last week that the IDP's I interviewed pre-war in Arbil, all went back to Kirkuk. This is a normal assumption considering the history. It should suprise no one.

[intikam]

some one is playing pin of handgrenade in the room..

[Ergnkon]

Even the Iraqi government thinks it should be returned to what it was:
4/1/2007
BAGDHAD (*******) - Iraq's cabinet has decided to pay compensation to Arab families forced by Saddam Hussein to move to Kirkuk if they leave the northern oil-rich city voluntarily, government sources said on Saturday.

ADVERTISEMENT

The sources said the cabinet agreed on Thursday to pay Arab families 20 million dinars ($15,000) each and give them a piece of land if they returned to their original towns.

"This decision does not need parliament ratification. It is effective immediately," one government official said.

The move was welcomed by Kurdish officials but angered some Shi'ite and Sunni Arab parliamentarians who, at a news conference in Baghdad, said it violated the constitution.

Sitting on one of the world's richest oil fields and just outside the borders of the largely autonomous Kurdistan region, Kirkuk could become a regional flashpoint. Kurds want to incorporate the city into their region.

Under Saddam, Kirkuk was subject to an "Arabisation" policy that drove many Kurds from their homes and brought in Arabs, mostly Shi'ite Muslims from the south.

A government official said families would be "encouraged" to leave Kirkuk. "No one will be forced to leave, it is voluntary," he said.

Iraq is expected to settle Kirkuk's final status in a referendum by the end of the year although officials have said such a step might increase violence.

Since the U.S. invasion of 2003, many Kurds have returned and Turkmen and Arabs in the city now complain of "ethnic cleansing."

This isn't a Kurdish thing, it's an Iraqi decision. I just found out last week that the IDP's I interviewed pre-war in Arbil, all went back to Kirkuk. This is a normal assumption considering the history. It should suprise no one.

Saddam also changed thousends of Turkomans of Kirkuk with Arabs...but we don't see kurds allowing these Turkomans return to Kirkuk. Instead, they(kurds) import other kurds from the neighboring countries into the place of these Turkomans.

[IraGlacialis]

Either way, I am just hoping the fracturing doesn't happen, but if it does, even though I may be unrealistic, I hope there is cooperation and dialogue between Turkey and Kurdistan.

[Argyll]

Turkomen are still IRAQI's , it has NOTHING to do with Turkey

[intikam]

Turkomen are still IRAQI's , it has NOTHING to do with Turkey


wrong ...
only 2 things except ... they have been send away kırkurk
of their hometown.....this situation is opposite of human rights...
second one Türkiye may try to save their rights...because some changes can be negative effects on future of Türkiye ...so this can cause to do something about northern iraq...;-)

[Argyll]

Right, so they're NOT Iraqi's then?...........If this is indeed the case, they have NO right to be in Kirkuk, and have right to be part of the referendum!!!
Human rights violations?.........what about the Kurds who were expelled in the first place to make way for Arabs?

[Rictor]

quite wrong...
may be you dont know northern iraq was part of land Ottoman empire...

So were Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Greece and most of the Balkans. That doesn't mean modern Turkey has any claims to them. The Turkey of today is not the Ottoman Empire, just as the UK isn't the British Empire and Russia isn't the USSR. Territories contained within the former do not apply to the latter.

[Ergnkon]

Right, so they're NOT Iraqi's then?...........If this is indeed the case, they have NO right to be in Kirkuk, and have right to be part of the referendum!!!

They are Iraqis of course, but just as barzani declares the kurds in Turkey their relatives and provokes them against the Turkish state, so does Turks have a right to protect their Turkoman relatives against the etnic clensing by the kurds in Kirkuk.



Human rights violations?.........what about the Kurds who were expelled in the first place to make way for Arabs?

Them and the import of kurds from the neighboring countries, 10 x more of them already returned to Kirkuk.

[Canadian2urk]

It's just double standards by the usual folks around here^^

When the Turks do it, everyone cries..
but it's ok for Barzani.:roll:

[Mahir]

Kirkuk should be Iraqis, it's resources must be distrubuted to whole parts of the country. We, Turks worry about Turkmen's living there, and as a strong country we are ready to do the same things like in Cyprus, to protect them. Lately bomb attacks started to Turkmens, and people are started to brought to Kirkuk by regional Kurdish government, that's why our government and armed forces warn Talabani,Barzani etc.
For 2003, I'm happy that we didnt let US troops, because we all knew it was about the oil, not the "nuclear weapons!!!!111oneoneeleven" in Iraq.

[Canadian2urk]

Kirkuk should be Iraqis, it's resources must be distrubuted to whole parts of the country. We, Turks worry about Turkmen's living there, and as a strong country we are ready to do the same things like in Cyprus, to protect them. Lately bomb attacks started to Turkmens, and people are started to brought to Kirkuk by regional Kurdish government, that's why our government and armed forces warn Talabani,Barzani etc.
For 2003, I'm happy that we didnt let US troops, because we all knew it was about the oil, not the "nuclear weapons!!!!111oneoneeleven" in Iraq.


lol, confirmed.
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/01/08/iraq-oil.html

[Argyll]

It's just double standards by the usual folks around here^^

When the Turks do it, everyone cries..
but it's ok for Barzani.:roll:

What the Turks do in their own country is entirely up to them, Kirkuk last time I looked is in Iraq, which means it has fcuk all to do with them, the sooner you realise this the better it will be for all concerned.

[Ergnkon]

What the Turks do in their own country is entirely up to them, Kirkuk last time I looked is in Iraq, which means it has fcuk all to do with them, the sooner you realise this the better it will be for all concerned.

...and Diyarbakir is in Turkey. As soon as barzani gets his hands off the kurds in Turkey(giving "kurdistan" citizenship and provocations), I'm sure there will be progress in Kirkuk's Turkoman situation also.

Things happen in a mutual ways around there ;)

[annihilation]

Kirkuk should be Iraqis, it's resources must be distrubuted to whole parts of the country. We, Turks worry about Turkmen's living there, and as a strong country we are ready to do the same things like in Cyprus, to protect them. Lately bomb attacks started to Turkmens, and people are started to brought to Kirkuk by regional Kurdish government, that's why our government and armed forces warn Talabani,Barzani etc.
For 2003, I'm happy that we didnt let US troops, because we all knew it was about the oil, not the "nuclear weapons!!!!111oneoneeleven" in Iraq.

Of course it was all about the oil. We have to make money some how in this venture. Considering it was the oil, i have no problem in giving it the kurds to administer. The only group in Iraq I currently like and respect. The rest could get another saddam for all I care.

[intikam]

It's just double standards by the usual folks around here^^

When the Turks do it, everyone cries..
but it's ok for Barzani.:roll:

excatly...
what kind of justice do you think?

[NewsMan]

Once again, the IRAQI government is in charge of the relocation. In fact Saturday, Iraqis SUNNI ARAB JM pushed it a step further:

FROM TODAY's AP:

The attack came days after the Iraqi government endorsed plans to relocate thousands of Arabs who were moved to Kirkuk as part of Saddam Hussein's campaign to force ethnic Kurds out of the city in an effort to undo one of the former dictator's most enduring and hated policies.

Kurds are seeking to incorporate the city, 180 miles north of Baghdad, and into their nearby autonomous region. But the move has met strong opposition from Sunni Arabs who fear being isolated from Iraq's oil riches, which are concentrated in the north and the mainly Shiite south.

The ancient city of Kirkuk has a large minority of ethnic Turks as well as Christians, Shiite and Sunni Arabs, Armenians and Assyrians. The city is just south of the Kurdish autonomous zone stretching across three provinces of northeastern Iraq.

Iraq's constitution sets an end-of-the-year deadline for a referendum on Kirkuk's status. Since Saddam's fall four years ago, thousands of Kurds who once lived in the city have resettled there. It is now believed Kurds are a majority of the population and that a referendum on attaching Kirkuk to the Kurdish autonomous zone would pass easily.

[NewsMan]

More:

By STEVEN R. HURST, Associated Press Writer
Sat Mar 31, 7:23 PM ET



BAGHDAD - Iraq's government has endorsed plans to relocate thousands of Arabs who were moved to Kirkuk as part of Saddam Hussein's campaign to force ethnic Kurds out of the oil-rich city, in an effort to undo one of the former dictator's most enduring and hated policies.

The Interior Ministry, meanwhile, raised the death toll in Tuesday's suicide truck bombing of a Shiite market in Tal Afar to 152, which would make it the deadliest single strike since the war started four years ago.

A spokesman for the Shiite-dominated ministry, Brig. Gen. Abdul-Karim Khalaf, said the toll nearly doubled after more bodies were pulled from the rubble in the northwestern city.

The U.S. military and the mayor of Tal Afar kept the death toll at 83. But they acknowledged the figure could rise.

The contentious decision on Kirkuk was confirmed Saturday by Iraq's Sunni justice minister as he told The Associated Press he was resigning. Almost immediately, opposition politicians said they feared it would harden the violent divisions among Iraq's fractious ethnic and religious groups and possibly lead to an Iraq divided among Kurds, Sunni Arabs and Shiites.

The plan was virtually certain to anger neighboring Turkey, which fears a northward migration of Iraqi Kurds — and an exodus of Sunni Arabs — will inflame its own restive Kurdish minority.

Around Iraq Saturday, at least 38 people were killed or found dead in series of bombings and attacks, including nine construction workers who died when gunmen opened fire on their bus south of Kirkuk. The violence capped a week in which more than 500 Iraqis were killed in sectarian violence.

The ancient city of Kirkuk has a large minority of ethnic Turks as well as Christians, Shiite and Sunni Arabs, Armenians and Assyrians. The city is just south of the Kurdish autonomous zone stretching across three provinces of northeastern Iraq.

Iraq's constitution sets an end-of-the-year deadline for a referendum on Kirkuk's status. Since Saddam's fall four years ago, thousands of Kurds who once lived in the city have resettled there. It is now believed Kurds are a majority of the population and that a referendum on attaching Kirkuk to the Kurdish autonomous zone would pass easily.

Justice Minister Hashim al-Shebli said the Cabinet agreed on Thursday to a study group's recommendation that Arabs who had moved to Kirkuk from other parts of Iraq after July 1968 should be returned to their original towns and paid compensation.

Al-Shebli, who had overseen the committee on Kirkuk's status, said relocation would be voluntary. Those who choose to leave will be paid about $15,000 and given land in their former hometowns.

"There will be no coercion and the decision will not be implemented by force," al-Shebli told the AP.

Tens of thousands of Kurds and non-Arabs fled Kirkuk in the 1980s and 1990s when Saddam's government implemented its "Arabization" policy. Kurds and non-Arabs were replaced with pro-government Arabs from the mainly Shiite impoverished south.

After the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in March 2003, Kurds and other non-Arabs streamed back, only to find their homes were either sold or given to Arabs. Some of the returning Kurds found nowhere to live except in parks and abandoned government buildings. Others drove Arabs from the city, despite pleas from Sunni and Shiite leaders for them to stay.

Adil Abdul-Hussein Alami, a 62-year-old Shiite who moved to Kirkuk 23 years ago in return for $1,000 and a free piece of land, said he would find it hard to leave.

"Kirkuk is an Iraqi city and I'm Iraqi," said the father of nine. "We came here as one family and now we are four. Our blood is mixed with Kurds and Turkmen."

But Ahmed Salih Zowbaa, a 52-year-old Shiite father of six who moved to the city from Kufa in 1987, agreed with the government's decision. "We gave our votes to this government and constitution and as long as the government will compensate us, then there is no injustice at all," he said.

There were fears that a referendum that was likely to put Kirkuk, 180 miles north of Baghdad, under Kurdish control could open a new front in the violence that has ravaged Iraq since shortly after the U.S.-led invasion. On March 19, several bombs struck targets in Kirkuk and killed at least 26 people.

Al-Shebli, a Sunni Arab, also confirmed he had offered his resignation on the same day that the Cabinet approved the plan. He cited differences with the government and his own political group, the secular Iraqi List, which joined Sunni Arab lawmakers Saturday in opposing the Kirkuk decision.

He said he would continue in office until the Cabinet approved his resignation.

The Iraqi List is led by former Prime Minister Ayad Allawi, a secular Shiite. The group holds 25 seats in the 275-seat parliament.

Ali al-Dabbagh, spokesman for Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, said al-Shebli quit before he could be fired in a coming government reshuffle. Neither al-Dabbagh nor al-Shebli would say if the minister had resigned over the Kirkuk issue.

In late February, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Iraq should delay the Kirkuk referendum because the city was not secure.

Turkey fears Iraq's Kurds want Kirkuk's oil revenues to fund an eventual bid for independence that could encourage separatist Kurdish guerrillas in Turkey, who have been fighting for autonomy since 1984. That conflict has claimed the lives of 37,000 people.

Al-Shebli said local authorities in Kirkuk would begin distributing forms soon to Arab families to determine who would participate in the relocation program. He said he could not predict how long the process would take.

Planning Minister Ali Baban said the relocation plan was adopted over the opposition of Sunni Arab members of the Shiite-led government, members of the Iraqi List and at least one Cabinet minister loyal to radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.

"We demanded that the question of Kirkuk be resolved through dialogue between the political blocs and not through the committee," he told the AP earlier this week. "They say the repatriation is voluntary, but we have our doubts."

Osama al-Nujaifi, a Sunni lawmaker with the Iraqi List, also denounced the decision, saying it fails to address key issues, including how to deal with property claims.

"There are more than 13,000 unsolved cases before the commission in charge of this point and it just solved no more than 250 of them," he said of the property claims. "The other thing is the huge demographic change in Kirkuk as more than 650,000 Kurds have been brought in illegally over the past four years. We contest these resolutions and we will raise to the parliament to be discussed."

[Argyll]

...and Diyarbakir is in Turkey. As soon as barzani gets his hands off the kurds in Turkey(giving "kurdistan" citizenship and provocations), I'm sure there will be progress in Kirkuk's Turkoman situation also.

Things happen in a mutual ways around there ;)


We're talking about KIRKUK here, you know that city in IRAQ, nobody in this topic is discussing Diyabakir.....;)

[Ergnkon]

We're talking about KIRKUK here, you know that city in IRAQ, nobody in this topic is discussing Diyabakir.....;)

Little bit of info about what barzani does in Diyarbakir would help you understand the connection ;)

[Argyll]

Like I said, what goes on in Turkey is up to the TURKISH people to sort out, Iraq for the Iraqi's, France for the French!!

[intikam]

Like I said, what goes on in Turkey is up to the TURKISH people to sort out, Iraq for the Iraqi's, France for the French!!

completely true... USA for american and UK for english etc....thanks mate...

[annihilation]

completely true... USA for american and UK for english etc....thanks mate...


I would be incline to agree, man would I love to see world to go on its own devices. Probably do just fine and the US would do better with all the money it saved.

[Mahir]

Like I said, what goes on in Turkey is up to the TURKISH people to sort out, Iraq for the Iraqi's, France for the French!!


LMAO "Iraq for the Iraqi's" =) Last time there were lots of soldiers from the US..

[Ergnkon]

Like I said, what goes on in Turkey is up to the TURKISH people to sort out,

...and I say; that'll require getting barzani's hands off the kurds in Turkey.

That's why I say; "bit of knowing what's really going on" would help understanding the big picture. ;)

[Argyll]

LMAO "Iraq for the Iraqi's" =) Last time there were lots of soldiers from the US..


Yeah but it was Iraqi's who voted, not Americans to elect their leader, and their Government. ;)

[Canadian2urk]

what about the Kurds who were expelled in the first place to make way for Arabs?

so that somehow justifies the expulsion of ethnic Turkmen from their hometowns by the Kurdish leadership????

both ways my friend, the sooner you start realizing how Kurdish leadership is slowly, but gradually ethically cleansing Kirkuk, the shorter this non-stop argument will last.. (you vs. almost all Turks on MP.net)

please stop with the one-sided slanted drivel, it just looks bad on your part as a mod.:cantbeli:


We're talking about KIRKUK here, you know that city in IRAQ, nobody in this topic is discussing Diyabakir.....;)

so it's okay for the Kurdish Leadership of KIRKUK to provocate the Kurds in Diyarbakir, TURKEY?, but Turks can't provocate thier people in Kirkuk?!?!?

when did the Kurdish leadership get this right??

do you understand what i mean when i say one-sided slanted drivel?



What the Kurds do in their own country is entirely up to them, Diyarbakir last time I looked is in Turkey, which means it has fcuk all to do with them, the sooner Barzani's Leadership realise this, the better it will be for all concerned.

just changed the words around... you catch on yet?

give that lecture to Barzani.

[Argyll]

........................

so that somehow justifies the expulsion of ethnic Turkmen from their hometowns by the Kurdish leadership????

Did I say that it did?............have I ever said that I agree with it?......NO I HAVEN'T.....If these Turkmen lived in Kirkuk all their lives, they have that right to live there........IF they were brought in to displace Kurds, then the answer is sadly No they don't, especially if the original homeowner returns.
Ethnic cleansing is wrong, no matter where it happens.....These Turkmen are IRAQI's, so it's an issue for the IRAQI government, not the TURKISH, if the Turkmen feel more Turkish than Iraqi, perhaps Turkey would be better offering them residency,which would solve the whole Kurd/Turkmen issue, you boot out your Kurds, and Iraq Boots out their Turkmen.......

both ways my friend, the sooner you start realizing how Kurdish leadership is slowly, but gradually ethically cleansing Kirkuk, the shorter this non-stop argument will last.. (you vs. almost all Turks on MP.net)

Much in the same way that it happened to the Kurds before?.....or is that a part you can't aknowledge.....If the Kurdish leadership are doing this in IRAQ, it's up to the IRAQI Government to stop it, the occupants of Kirkuk are all IRAQI's.........Not Turks......

please stop with the one-sided slanted drivel, it just looks bad on your part as a mod.:cantbeli:

Do not tell me what I can and cannot say as a mod!!.....as for drivel, and one sidedness, Pot this is kettle over!!



so it's okay for the Kurdish Leadership of KIRKUK to provocate the Kurds in Diyarbakir, TURKEY?, but Turks can't provocate thier people in Kirkuk?!?!?

Stop greeting about it, and do something, if the Kurdish leadership are stirring the shyt in Turkey, ban them, arrest them, stop moaning about it.
Thier people in Iraq?........They are Turkmen, but they are IRAQI's, so it's not allright, and neither is it all right for Barzani to do the same.

when did the Kurdish leadership get this right??

Probabaly around the same time your leadership decided to interfere in Iraqi affairs......:roll:

do you understand what i mean when i say one-sided slanted drivel?

Yes, you're using the same reasonings!!




just changed the words around... you catch on yet?

Indeed, did it work for you too?

give that lecture to Barzani.

Why don't you, next time he comes to Turkey?

[intikam]

Yeah but it was Iraqi's who voted, not Americans to elect their leader, and their Government. ;)

you surprised me.l havent seen anyone like you from western countries to defended kurdishes...
..please dont offend...may you be a kurdish?:roll:

[Argyll]

Not offended, I'm Scottish..........You must not be reading half the posts here, there's a LOT of support for the Kurds do a search....here's a hint
David Tate is also an avid supporter of the Kurds.

[Eusebius]

you surprised me.l havent seen anyone like you from western countries to defended kurdishes...
..please dont offend...may you be a kurdish?:roll:

Support Kurds who are loyal friends of the United States, or Turkey whose allegiances are dubious at best, and like I mentioned earlier, whose support for the 2003 invasion was non-existence pretty much, I think the American public and those who are friendly to American interests have a pretty simple choice of who they should consider a real friend.

[intikam]

Support Kurds who are loyal friends of the United States, or Turkey whose allegiances are dubious at best, and like I mentioned earlier, whose support for the 2003 invasion was non-existence pretty much, I think the American public and those who are friendly to American interests have a pretty simply choice of who they should consider a real friend.


so do you think Türkiye and Turks are not friend and ally of USA or EU?

[intikam]

Support Kurds who are loyal friends of the United States, or Turkey whose allegiances are dubious at best, and like I mentioned earlier, whose support for the 2003 invasion was non-existence pretty much, I think the American public and those who are friendly to American interests have a pretty simply choice of who they should consider a real friend.


you should know the truth...
actually Türkiye tried to join operation of iraq...
because existence of Saddam threated TURKOMAN people of iraq..
but kurdish politicians in Turkiye to prevent invade of northern iraq by Turkiye provokated Turkish goverment not to vote for march 1 permission...this is reality..

allready AKP which rules country is has got strong relations fundementalist organisation like HAMAS ..

as a Turkish l should say they dont repsent majority of Turkish nation

as you said your loyal friends prevented to support ...:roll:

[Ergnkon]

Support Kurds who are loyal friends of the United States, or Turkey whose allegiances are dubious at best, and like I mentioned earlier, whose support for the 2003 invasion was non-existence pretty much, I think the American public and those who are friendly to American interests have a pretty simply choice of who they should consider a real friend.

Then you can't argue that you believe in democracy around here..huh?

Today, 75% of the US troops logistics goes through Turkey and it's air space is open to US military. I'd like to see what'll happen when that privilage is taken away from them :)


@Intikam

x10 agreed bro

That's why you have to vote in this year's elections.


allready AKP which rules country is has got strong relations fundementalist organisation like HAMAS ..

as a Turkish l should say they dont repsent majority of Turkish nation

[Eusebius]

so do you think Türkiye and Turks are not friend and ally of USA or EU?

No I do not mean that. Turkey is a friend, but currently not judged to be that useful of a friend, this of course is given to dramatic changes given circumstances. But given the regional interest of the US currently, Kurds appear to the more as it is, useful, as a friend. As such, in a conflict of interests between Kurds and Turkey, Kurdish interests will have to take precedence, at least in the eyes of the American foreign policy.

[Argyll]

Where did you get the figure of 75% from?........I'd refute this, and state that 75% actually comes through Kuwait and the Port of Um Quasar

[Ergnkon]

Where did you get the figure of 75% from?........I'd refute this, and state that 75% actually comes through Kuwait and the Port of Um Quasar

...and why am I not suprised you oppose to it? Again... a lack of knowledge maybe?


Belive me mate...even the electricty this "kurdistan" uses supplied by Turkey. I bet you didn't know that ;)

Here is a bit that should give you some ide about the percentages.

Turkey-based Airmen saving troops' lives in Iraq

by Michael Tolzmann
Air Force Print News


11/14/2006 - INCIRLIK AIR BASE, Turkey (AFPN) -- Hundreds of miles away from the war zone, the efforts of Airmen here are helping keep Iraq-based troops off dangerous convoy routes that are plagued with roadside bombs and sniper attacks.

By flying critical supplies via C-17 Globemaster III from this eastern Turkey air base directly to servicemembers at remote locations in Iraq, more than 3,300 convoy truck missions are taken off the Iraqi roads each month, said Capt. James Burnham, aerial port operations officer with the 728th Air Mobility Squadron here.

Close to 60 percent of all air cargo destined for Iraq passes through Incirlik Air Base, said Col. Tip Stinnette, commander of the 39th Air Base Wing. He said three reasons influence the mission being operated here -- location, location, location.

"Incirlik is a strategic center of gravity for the U.S. and Turkey in this region," Colonel Stinnette said . "Here at Incirlik, I can pump that airplane and aircrew into Iraq twice in a day. By doing so, we can rededicate airplanes and aircrews to other missions. This comes down to greater efficiency and greater allocation of recourses. You can do a strategic hub just about anywhere, in fact, previously it was done out of Ramstein. But it takes a day for a plane to cycle from Ramstein into Iraq and back," he said.


http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123031784

US military cargo planes deployed at Turkey's Incirlik airbase

Four US Air Force C-17 cargo planes have arrived at the Incirlik airbase in southern Turkey this month since Ankara agreed to extend its period of use, semi-official Anatolia News Agency reported Monday.

Logistic supplies including tents, foodstuff, clothes and spare parts brought by US civilian cargo planes, will be transported from the airbase to Iraq and Afghanistan by C-17 cargo planes, said the report.

In April, Turkish President Ahmet Necdet Sezer approved a government decree extending for another year the right of the US military to use the airbase as a logistical cargo hub for operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The traditionally close ties between the two NATO allies were strained when Turkish parliament refused to allow US troops to use Turkish territory to invade Iraq in 2003.

Ankara was also angered by US reluctance to take military action against the rebels of the outlawed Kurdish Workers' Party (PKK) based in the north of Iraq.

US and British warplanes used the Incirlik airbase to patrol the no-fly zone over northern Iraq since the end of the first Gulf War in 1991 to oust Iraqi forces from Kuwait.

Source: Xinhua

http://english.people.com.cn/200506/07/eng20050607_188772.html






...and there is more going in via hundreds of Turkish truckers on daily bases.

[Argyll]

yeah I know...........I'm on a CONVOY TEAM!!

almost 60% of Air cargo is not 75% of the overall logistics mate, you should know this, the amount of tonnage an Aircraft can carry, compared to a seaborne vessel is grossly different.

The vast majority of fuel convoys that are delivering fuel to the FOB's and Iraqi Installations that come from the South

I've no doubt that almost 60% of airfreight comes in via Turkey, but that's airfreight mate, it's not the overall picture, there's land and sea freight on top of this.....You implied that 75% of the Logistics for Iraq comes through Turkey......being on one of those convoy teams , and knowing the other companys who are on the PWC contract, kind of makes me sceptical of the claims you made.

Oh and just to let you know, I agree that without Turkeys Aid to the overall Mission in Iraq, it would be a very difficult situation indeed, the Turkish drivers who run these roads with me on a daily basis have my utmost respect, and are kind warm hearted individuals, because they're not getting involved in the Politics.
Turkey is a key Ally in Iraq, that position should not change, and there's no need for it to either.

[NewsMan]

Not offended, I'm Scottish..........You must not be reading half the posts here, there's a LOT of support for the Kurds do a search....here's a hint
David Tate is also an avid supporter of the Kurds.

Actually... I support Turkey as well as Kurdish identity. I do not support Kurdish seperatism, but do believe that Turkey's policies create most of her own problems.

My support of Kurds is simply based on my desire to educate people about distant issues that involve human rights. Awareness is half the battle.


As for Kurds and US policy: I have sat down with US Senators on at least two occasions (most recently last month with Jim Webb) to help "guide" them to what I see as the krux of the current Iraq issue (Kirkuk). I believe the truest friends the USA has in the Middle East, next to Israel, are the Kurds. We MUST NOT turn our backs on these people again. As Americans, we owe the Kurdish people for their unwavering US support.

[annihilation]

As for Kurds and US policy: I have sat down with US Senators on at least two occasions (most recently last month with Jim Webb) to help "guide" them to what I see as the krux of the current Iraq issue (Kirkuk). I believe the truest friends the USA has in the Middle East, next to Israel, are the Kurds. We MUST NOT turn our backs on these people again. As Americans, we owe the Kurdish people for their unwavering US support.


I agree also whole heartly. The only reason why im reluctant for the US to leave Iraq is because of them. I could careless for the sunni and the shiites, but for the kurds I wish them the best, and hope that the united states will continue to support them for a long time to come.

Turkey is cool too :)

[IraGlacialis]

I agree also whole heartly. The only reason why im reluctant for the US to leave Iraq is because of them. I could careless for the sunni and the shiites, but for the kurds I wish them the best, and hope that the united states will continue to support them for a long time to come.

Turkey is cool too :)
You just gave yourself a paradox.
IT'S TURKEY OR KURDISTAN; NO ROOM FOR BOTH!! ;)

[Ergnkon]

I have sat down with US Senators on at least two occasions (most recently last month with Jim Webb) to help "guide" them to what I see as the krux of the current Iraq issue (Kirkuk). I believe the truest friends the USA has in the Middle East, next to Israel, are the Kurds. We MUST NOT turn our backs on these people again. As Americans, we owe the Kurdish people for their unwavering US support.

Talabani and Barzani have spent thousands of dollars getting former US ambassadors to say good things about them. I thought that since the Iraqi Kurds have not been able to learn what Washington really thinks about them, it would be a good idea to say it directly to their newspapers. Iraqi Kurds must understand that Washington will absolutely not forget about Ankara, and that for as long as the PKK exists in Northern Iraq, the region will be seen as a terror supporting one.

In the end, the Northern Iraq leadership is responsible for whatever happens in their region. And if the situation continues, Northern Iraq is not looking at a good future. Turkey has just as much a right as the US, Israel, and other countries to struggle against terror coming from across the border to it.

http://hurarsiv.hurriyet.com.tr/goster/haber.aspx?id=5440734



I agree also whole heartly. The only reason why im reluctant for the US to leave Iraq is because of them. I could careless for the sunni and the shiites, but for the kurds I wish them the best, and hope that the united states will continue to support them for a long time to come.

Enabling Kurdish Illusions
Independence isn't in the cards.
by Michael Rubin
03/19/2007,

Iraqi Kurdish leaders continue to shelter the PKK. Whether their support is active or passive is irrelevant, for there are no acceptable levels of support for terror. Nor is it responsible to undercut the security of a long-term NATO ally like Turkey. Until Iraqi Kurdish leaders expel terrorists in their midst and renounce interests beyond Iraq's border, any congressional encouragement of ethnic federalism risks plunging the region into chaos.

Michael Rubin, resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, recently returned from both Iraqi Kurdistan and Turkey.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/013/397lgxzg.asp?pg=2

[NewsMan]

I'm just lying low on this subject these days. I've come to the conclusion that Talabani and Barzani could crap golden eggs and solve world hungry... and STILL be evil Kurds trying to undermine Turkey. I just hope both sides come to the table and make peace.

[Ergnkon]

I'm just lying low on this subject these days. I've come to the conclusion that Talabani and Barzani could crap golden eggs and solve world hungry... and STILL be evil Kurds trying to undermine Turkey.

Would it help with US policies against terrorism if OBL did that too? I didn't think so...

Terrorists and their suponsors will always be treated as one. If they're seeing an independent state in their future and wanted to be accepted as one, then they should act like a responsable statemen and deanounce terrorism and stop harboring them against their neighbors.

Masud Barzani, president of the Iraqi Kurdistan Region, shelters PKK terrorists in his territory. Every winter, his political party, the Kurdistan Democratic Party, profits by selling PKK members supplies as they descend from their mountainous hideouts. While Barzani insists that the Kurdish militia and not the Iraqi army should secure his region's northern border, he has failed to use his militia to secure the Iraqi-Turkish border. All but the lucrative formal crossings with Iran and Turkey are unguarded.

http://www.nysun.com/article/22456?page_no=1


President of Kurdistan: We would not allow any country to attack PKK

2/26/2007 KurdishMedia.com

Masoud Barzani
London (KurdishMedia.com) 26 January 2007: The president of Kurdistan, Massuad Barzani, stated that the Kurdistan government would not allow any country to attack the PKK fighters stationed in southern Kurdistan.

http://www.kurdmedia.com/news.asp?id=14126

[nesesiz]

I'm just lying low on this subject these days. I've come to the conclusion that Talabani and Barzani could crap golden eggs and solve world hungry... and STILL be evil Kurds trying to undermine Turkey. I just hope both sides come to the table and make peace.

there is no war between TURks and kurds.

[NewsMan]

Would it help with US policies against terrorism if OBL did that too? I didn't think so...

Terrorists and their suponsors will always be treated as one. If they're seeing an independent state in their future and wanted to be accepted as one, then they should act like a responsable statemen and deanounce terrorism and stop harboring them against their neighbors.

Masud Barzani, president of the Iraqi Kurdistan Region, shelters PKK terrorists in his territory. Every winter, his political party, the Kurdistan Democratic Party, profits by selling PKK members supplies as they descend from their mountainous hideouts. While Barzani insists that the Kurdish militia and not the Iraqi army should secure his region's northern border, he has failed to use his militia to secure the Iraqi-Turkish border. All but the lucrative formal crossings with Iran and Turkey are unguarded.

http://www.nysun.com/article/22456?page_no=1


President of Kurdistan: We would not allow any country to attack PKK

2/26/2007 KurdishMedia.com

Masoud Barzani
London (KurdishMedia.com) 26 January 2007: The president of Kurdistan, Massuad Barzani, stated that the Kurdistan government would not allow any country to attack the PKK fighters stationed in southern Kurdistan.

http://www.kurdmedia.com/news.asp?id=14126


This arguement is useless because it's been said a million times and we just see things different. In fact, I don't look at PKK and AQ as the same, so it is useles to compare them in an arguement directed at me. Be as bullheaded as you want, but until you make things right with your Kurdish population, your country will continue to be the best recruiter for the PKK.

It's a lot easier to disenfranchise a population (as Turkey has with its Kurds) than it is to repair that relationship. Turkey hardly tries.

[Ergnkon]

This arguement is useless because it's been said a million times and we just see things different. In fact, I don't look at PKK and AQ as the same, so it is useles to compare them in an arguement directed at me.

I know you don't :) Why? cuz they haven't killed any Americans yet.



Be as bullheaded as you want, but until you make things right with your Kurdish population, your country will continue to be the best recruiter for the PKK.

Maybe your country should re consider it's ME and Iraq policies also to put an end at AQ recruitments ;)


It's a lot easier to disenfranchise a population (as Turkey has with its Kurds) than it is to repair that relationship. Turkey hardly tries.

That's^ a statement of ignorance.

PKK and their supporter kurds wants tear a part of Turkey away from it and annexed it to N. Iraq.

There can't be any "relationship" to be fixed with such people.

[NewsMan]

There can't be any "relationship" to be fixed with such people.


Especially when Turkey looks at the majority of the Kurdish population as either second class, sub-Turk and/or PKK. I'd be fighting you too.

[Ergnkon]

Especially when Turkey looks at the majority of the Kurdish population as either second class, sub-Turk and/or PKK. I'd be fighting you too.


That's a rethoric spread around by the PKK terror supporters to obscure their real intentions..which is seperatism. ;)

Turkey had a kurdish president. Right now, Interior Minister is a kurd who can barely speak Turkish.

Just a two examples of hundreds. ;)

[nesesiz]

Especially when Turkey looks at the majority of the Kurdish population as either second class, sub-Turk and/or PKK. I'd be fighting you too.

these words are not true your comments are very very excecive..
no second class human in Türkiye
but there is no freedom of terorism all over the world even EU UK or USA..

you should know what you support..

this pics were taken school bus attack done by pkk...
there are much more worse then these pics or anykind of teror organisation..
but l wont send...

please dont support pkk..

[Desk Jockey]

Especially when Turkey looks at the majority of the Kurdish population as either second class, sub-Turk and/or PKK. I'd be fighting you too.

Dave I personally know Kurds who call themselves Turks, it seems this identification and second class citizen in something of a more perception of the outside world.

Just this weekend I was at the Turkish Boston University Student Associations first annual dinner.

300 members, NO ONE IDENTIFIED THEMSELVES TO ME AS KURDISH, although many were.

That may be just an anecdotal, but from my time at METU, to working and living in several Turkish cities (yes Kurdistan too) I just don't agree with your analysis of the level of antagonism.

If anything there is animosity I have witnessed with the "arabic" and "turkish" type cultural backgrounds in Antakya, Mersin, Adana.

Do you really believe the "MAJORITY" of Turks see Kurds as second class, funny thing, many of my Turkish friends who happen to be Kurds would be very confused as to what to say.:)

[Desk Jockey]

The PIC is gonna bring Delta Whiskey with the ban stick and this conversation is gonna be history. Let us try to keep this thread open. Many of us, too many first hand and up close know what victims of terror look like. Images like that are not needed in this discussion.

Take it down please before the cavalry shows up.

[NewsMan]

Dave I personally know Kurds who call themselves Turks, it seems this identification and second class citizen in something of a more perception of the the outside world.

Just this weekend I was at the Turkish Boston University Student Associations first annual dinner.

300 members, NO ONE IDENTIFIED THEMSELVES TO ME AS KURDISH, although many were.

That may be just an anecdotal, but from my time at METU, to working and living in several Turkish cities (yes Kurdistan too) I just don't agree with your analysis of the level of antagonism.

If anything there is animosity I have witnessed with the "arabic" and "turkish" type cultural backgrounds in Antakya, Mersin, Adana.

Do you really believe the "MAJORITY" of Turks see Kurds as second class, funny thing, many of my Turkish friends who happened to be Kurds would be very confused as to what to say.:)

I suppose perception can be where you get your knowledge from. Is your knowledge coming from the beautiful vistas of Istanbul or are they formed from your experience in SE Turkey? This will just have to be another disagreement. Citings are limitless when addressing the second class nature many, many, many Kurds face in Turkey (Of course NONE of the citings of ANY pro-Kurdish news is valid). You speak as if what I suggest is completely baseless. Don't think I have put my views together from discussions on this site. I've seen repetitive things that help shape this opinion (as well as an enormous amount of reading I do on the subject).

[NewsMan]

please dont support pkk..

Because we do not agree, does not mean I support the PKK, which I do not (for the hundredth time).

[nesesiz]

[quote=Desk Jockey;2414154]The PIC is gonna bring Delta Whiskey with the ban stick and this conversation is gonna be history. Let us try to keep this thread open.




for what ? no one change their idea...This topic is not disgusable...
Could Pr.Bush disguss with Saddam invasion of iraq?.
useless...
Because some people may like kurds and may not like Turks...
or complite opposite...
so feelings becomes more important then ideas.....

so no one is right or wrong...
so l removed pics...

[IraGlacialis]

for what ? no one change their idea...This topic is not disgusable...
Could Pr.Bush disguss with Saddam invasion of iraq?.
useless...
Because some people may like kurds and may not like Turks...
or complite opposite...
so feelings becomes more important then ideas....
I would have to say, even if I disagree with your views, that post is really appropriate, especially about this subject.

[Desk Jockey]

I suppose perception can be where you get your knowledge from. Is your knowledge coming from the beautiful vistas of Istanbul or are they formed from your experience in SE Turkey? This will just have to be another disagreement. Citings are limitless when addressing the second class nature many, many, many Kurds face in Turkey (Of course NONE of the citings of ANY pro-Kurdish news is valid). You speak as if what I suggest is completely baseless. Don't think I have put my views together from discussions on this site. I've seen repetitive things that help shape this opinion (as well as an enormous amount of reading I do on the subject).

Diyarbakir, Van, Batman, my friends family comes from Siirt and now lives in Istanbul. Kurds, whose father is an avukat and daughter works at Philips in Umraniye.

Yeah I like Taksim for appetizers and drinks and Alanya for the Russian chicks but I was not a tourist there David. I am not saying what you say is baseless, sure there are incidents, and there is a history, but countries evolve.

You seem to be full tilt that the majority of Turks are anti Kurdish. Where is this data? It is anectodal like mine, except I am saying it exists but not to your perceived extent and furthermore I have been on the ground in periods equal to years. Not as a tourist and or journalist.

Reading on the subject is good, but consider the source, I say this with respect, you have never really lived, I mean lived in their society and thus lack the understanding of the complex dynamics of the issue.

Where is your (non read) knowledge coming from?

[Desk Jockey]

[quote=Desk Jockey;2414154]The PIC is gonna bring Delta Whiskey with the ban stick and this conversation is gonna be history. Let us try to keep this thread open.




for what ? no one change their idea...This topic is not disgusable...
Could Pr.Bush disguss with Saddam invasion of iraq?.
useless...
Because some people may like kurds and may not like Turks...
or complite opposite...
so feelings becomes more important then ideas.....

so no one is right or wrong...
so l removed pics...

It is just that images imflame tensions, I understand you wanted to show the murderous nature of Kadek, I have. We know what Kadek does, however in these threads the mods watch closely and do not take kindly to things spinning out of control. It really was not the pic, it was what it could have brought about. I hope you understand me. These threads are tricky and tolerated by the mods but closed down quickly if things turn ugly.

Just trying to be prudent.

Thanks and nice to meet you.

[NewsMan]

Where is your (non read) knowledge coming from?

I lived and worked with Turks across the Middle East and Central Asia for more than a year. Many different Turks who had the same feelings toward Kurds: That they were dirty, inferior people who were almost certainly terrorists or sympathizers. Kind of reminded me of how racist people here in the US talk about blacks.

[IraGlacialis]

I lived and worked with Turks across the Middle East and Central Asia for more than a year. Many different Turks who had the same feelings toward Kurds: That they were dirty, inferior people who were almost certainly terrorists or sympathizers. Kind of reminded me of how racist people here in the US talk about blacks.
But couldn't there be just as many Turks who look upon Kurds as real human beings? Same as the fact that not every white guy in the US is a bigot. However, everybody does have prejudices.

[Desk Jockey]

I lived and worked with Turks across the Middle East and Central Asia for more than a year. Many different Turks who had the same feelings toward Kurds: That they were dirty, inferior people who were almost certainly terrorists or sympathizers. Kind of reminded me of how racist people here in the US talk about blacks.:roll:

You are smarter than that, that is like living in Georgia and saying all white southerners are racist.

In fact in Taskkent we use Uzbek, in Samarkand, Tajik is used more often, I hear of some "quips" about southern Uzbeks, hell I use words like red necks or tree hugggers, it doesn't mean that there is visceral hatred toward them.

I hear Chorniye "black" used around me in Moscow, but not all Russians are racists.

[NewsMan]

:roll:

You are smarter than that, that is like living in Georgia and saying all white southerners are racist.

In fact in Taskkent we use Uzbek, in Samarkand, Tajik is used more often, I hear of some "quips" about southern Uzbeks, hell I use words like red necks or tree hugggers, it doesn't mean that there is visceral hatred toward them.

I hear Chorniye "black" used around me in Moscow, but not all Russians are racists.

Come on now... If I see common racism toward Kurds on a regular basis from those in my environment for a long period of time... why wouldn't that become part of my hypothesis? I never said all... or even close to all. I did say a majority... and yes, that is unprovable. However, let's be straight about this: There is MAJOR racism toward Kurds from Turks no matter how you slice it. Do countries evolve? Yes they do. As someone who is fond of Turkey, I hope that is the case. Unfortunately, taking the US approach of always being right with no room for diplomacy, will lead you down the same path: More terrorists.

[Desk Jockey]

Come on now... If I see common racism toward Kurds on a regular basis from those in my environment for a long period of time... why wouldn't that become part of my hypothesis? I never said all... or even close to all. I did say a majority... and yes, that is unprovable. However, let's be straight about this: There is MAJOR racism toward Kurds from Turks no matter how you slice it. Do countries evolve? Yes they do. As someone who is fond of Turkey, I hope that is the case. Unfortunately, taking the US approach of always being right with no room for diplomacy, will lead you down the same path: More terrorists.

So Turkiye negotiates with Kadek when they perform acts of terror? Like the US approach of zero diplomacy. :roll: We have been too diplomatic.

Kadek like islamo facists understand violence, and they seek to ruin the Turkish economy. What is Turkey to do? Appeasemet, show the violence brings nations to the bargaining table?

KADEK operations need to be met with the full might and resources of the Turkish security forces, that they understand.

[Ergnkon]

So Turkiye negotiates with Kadek when they perform acts of terror? Like the US approach of zero diplomacy. :roll: We have been too diplomatic.

Kadek like islamo facists understand violence, and they seek to ruin the Turkish economy. What is Turkey to do? Appeasemet, show the violence brings nations to the bargaining table?

KADEK operations need to be met with the full might and resources of the Turkish security forces, that they understand.

Exactly. Modern Turkey is been living with a 30 some years of kurdish terror. We'll see how the Americans will look at the muslims in their country after 30 years of AQ terror and 30 some thousend deaths. We'll see how tolerant they are.

I think DT is doing what's he's been paid for doing. Just kurd propaganda.

[Argyll]

You mean just like the Sunni and Shia in Iraq just now?.......or the Protestants and Catholics of Northern Ireland?

AQ is not tied to Ethnicity, but a religion.....that's the difference, and even at that there will be a few Christians within AQ's realms....AQ is "The movement", it's not a race, or religion.

[Desk Jockey]

You mean just like the Sunni and Shia in Iraq just now?.......or the Protestants and Catholics of Northern Ireland?

AQ is not tied to Ethnicity, but a religion.....that's the difference, and even at that there will be a few Christians within AQ's realms....AQ is "The movement", it's not a race, or religion.

I guess we can we remember the troubles with what, Hugh O'Neils Rebellion. Michael Collins, Eamon De Valera, damn Ben Franklin and Samuel Adams, the "Son's of Liberty." Terrorist or Freedom Fighters.

Any one in Iraq now AQ, or not who is viewed as a terrorist gonna be shown in a good light in history? You see an Iraqi, Sunni or Shiite or Kurd or Turkoman being one day viewed the savior of Iraq because he kicked out the American Forces (Coalition)? Do you feel a non man stream leader who has support on the ground, a unifer, a man who who don't here about but you may being there?

Lastly,

It may sick to say but could the thought of not facing off in a red jacket in a line be time stamped now as smart yet at the time dispicable, like IED's?

[NewsMan]

I think DT is doing what's he's been paid for doing. Just kurd propaganda.

Funny stuff here. This is the mindset that I run into that convinces me I might be mostly right. I have clearly stated my desire for a common existience... but constantly accused of being a Kurd mouthpiece because I see things other than the mighty Turk smashing the enemy with the only language they know. Give me a break. Beer time.

[Desk Jockey]

Funny stuff here. This is the mindset that I run into that convinces me I might be mostly right. I have clearly stated my desire for a common existience... but constantly accused of being a Kurd mouthpiece because I see things other than the mighty Turk smashing the enemy with the only language they know. Give me a break. Beer time.

We will all have raki and be friends:) Dave if your good I may even bring you to the best Turkish restaurant in the world, Gazi Antep city in your intineraryp-)

I still think your wrong though, and a bit of a Kurd mouthpiece, but your heart is is in the right place. We can agree to disagree.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Especially when Turkey looks at the majority of the Kurdish population as either second class, sub-Turk and/or PKK. I'd be fighting you too.


Dear David,


I again see same things from you. What can we do for you?

There are "no" "SECOND" (or third, or ....) Class people in Turkey. Everybody is First class in this plane. And you can be very sure that we will not allow you to crash this plane like some kurdish nationalist separatists backed by some other countries. ( is USA one of them? maybe...)

This issue is a political minded (a thin plan) and a pocker card against a hegemonic state Turkey in the middle east and other regions. USA and some other countries try to hold this issue "lively" and "ethnically". There is not ethnical problem until you write it everywhere in west media. We clearly see the process,slowly...Thin, wisely, separatism minded, deeply divisive policy, no any constructiveness.

You must understand,see that We will "never ever" allow to happen these things. If you have some pocker cards, then we have too and the one more thing, the table is our table, not yours. The base is our base, not yours. The country is our country, not yours. The people is our people, not yours. No any SECOND bla bla here. We are first and will stay first.


I advise you to read "Turkey as Regional Hegemon—2014: Strategic Implications for the USA" article. It shows everything is about a game of "who graps". Real Politics...nothing more...

If you do not find article, I can post whole article here. This is the last paragraph of it;


CONCLUSION
Demonstrably, Turkey is preparing the capability to become a regional
hegemon. Whether it does or not, is, in many ways, up to the US. American
withdrawal from the Middle East, an American failure to honor assurances,
the evolution of Iran as a nuclear state, the dissolution of Iraq as a national
state, and an increase in terrorism or Islamic fundamentalism are all potential
triggers for Turkey’s ascension to power. There are of course dozens of
other possible triggers that might make the Turks turn toward regional hegemony.
The question that Americans must ask themselves is, “Is it in our best
interests for Turkey to become a regional hegemon by 2014?” If the answer
is no, then the US needs a strategy to prevent this from happening.

[Ergnkon]

You mean just like the Sunni and Shia in Iraq just now?.......or the Protestants and Catholics of Northern Ireland?

AQ is not tied to Ethnicity, but a religion.....that's the difference, and even at that there will be a few Christians within AQ's realms....AQ is "The movement", it's not a race, or religion.

But you keep failing to see that all these groups uses terror to achive their goal behind whatever the reason they hide. Terror is the word here..keep that in mind.

Catagorizing of these terrorists behind names as "religious", political", "ethnic" etc..etc is just a way of those who are ready to use them as it fits their agenda.

I'm sure the day Iraqi insurgents who kills US soldiers now turns on AQ, they'll get off your "terrorist" list. ;)

[Argyll]

Iraqi Insurgents are not on the terrorist list mate....;)

[Ergnkon]

Iraqi Insurgents are not on the terrorist list mate....;)

maybe not on your personal one, but US authorities still refers them as terrorists ;)

[Ergnkon]

I lived and worked with Turks across the Middle East and Central Asia for more than a year. Many different Turks who had the same feelings toward Kurds: That they were dirty, inferior people who were almost certainly terrorists or sympathizers. Kind of reminded me of how racist people here in the US talk about blacks.

If they refuse to integrate with the society they live in by at least learning the official language, sending their kids to schools and not killing their wifes/daughters in the name of "honor",(does that sound familiar to the Europeans here?) it would help them a lot how ppl of Turkey in general looks at them. But they have such a good propaganda mouthpieces around the world today, even when they kill a teacher who is there to help them, they're presented as "freedom fighters"

BTW, Those who integrates becomes Presidents, Interior Ministers, Foreign Ministers etc,.

Turgut Özal (October 13, 1927–April 17, 1993) was a Turkish political leader, prime minister and 8th president of Turkey.

He was born in Malatya and was of partial Kurdish descent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turgut_%C3%96zal

Aksu, Abdülkadir (b. Oct. 12, 1944, Diyarbakir, Turkey), interior minister of Turkey (1989-91, 2002- ). He was also governor of Rize (1980) and Gaziantep (1984-87).

http://rulers.org/indexa2.html

Hikmet Çetin (born 1937 in Diyarbakır) is a Turkish politician, former minister of foreign affairs and was leader of the Republican's People Party for a short time. He served also as the speaker of the parliament.

He was appointed on November 19, 2003 as NATO Secretary General's Senior Civilian Representative in Afghanistan, the highest-level political representative of NATO in this country, where it has held the command of the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) since August 11, 2003. On January 26, 2004, he took office in Kabul, and served until August 24, 2006 two consecutive terms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikmet_%C3%87etin

[nesesiz]

problem is not second class people, human rights, kurdish terorism ,kurdish separatists or etc..

actully some friends try to say lets kurds found their own state..

problem is Turkiye is reluctant to give lands...

so some european friends say kurdish people are right..

they want us to give lands..

but we dont want...

so argue will never finish...

all times it is easy talking about another man money except your money..

for example US 16 times greater than TURKİYE...

also US is 8 times more welfare than us...more and more etc...

[Clearday-TRForce]

problem is not second class people, human rights, kurdish terorism ,kurdish separatists or etc..

actully some friends try to say lets kurds found their own state..

problem is Turkiye is reluctant to give lands...

so some european friends say kurdish people are right..

they want us to give lands..

but we dont want...

so argue will never finish...

all times it is easy talking about another man money except your money..

for example US 16 times greater than TURKİYE...

also US is 8 times more welfare than us...more and more etc...




Ahh hi nesesiz, are you from Turkey? ok, I would like to know why do you type like poem? :)




BTW, Those who integrates becomes Presidents, Interior Ministers, Foreign Ministers etc,.



Bro, they also know these things but yeah politics again.

[achilles]

That's a rethoric spread around by the PKK terror supporters to obscure their real intentions..which is seperatism. ;)

And whats wrong with separatism and self-determination for at least 10 million people of distinct ethnicity?


Turkey had a kurdish president. Right now, Interior Minister is a kurd who can barely speak Turkish.

Just a two examples of hundreds. ;)

I suppose we both realize that politicians arent exactly running your country but your generals.

[Ergnkon]

And whats wrong with separatism and self-determination for at least 10 million people of distinct ethnicity?

That's a racist state ambitions..you're aware that they'll be cleansing the Turks from that area just like they do in kirkuk and other parts of "kurdistan" in N. Iraq...right?

Also, coming from a Greek, it's a hypocracy...You should consider the situation of the ethnic Macedonians in Northern Greece (South Macedonia) before helping the kurds in Turkey ;)




I suppose we both realize that politicians arent exactly running your country but your generals.

You're media needs to update itself. If that was true, a Islamic Erdogan wouldn't be in power for the last five years and not looking at becoming a president in a few weeks.

I wish your assumption was true though ;)

[Clearday-TRForce]

Ahh, Ashilles discuss Turkish issues. Should we discuss Macedonia and Albania ethnical problems of Greece? :) what a coincidence!!! hi friend, long time. p-)

[nesesiz]

talabni or barzani demand lands from TURKIYE..not officially now...
but we know their intensions.......
there are alot of maps SE of Turkey is divided and aparthed.....
future realtions will be not good...because AKP Wİll not be succesfful
as much as 2002 november elections..
next goverment will be consisted with more right winged politicians..
thsi is not good for barzani or talabani...

[NewsMan]

talabni or barzani demand lands from TURKIYE..not officially now...but we know their intensions.......


More of the problem.

[Vorian]

Also, coming from a Greek, it's a hypocracy...You should consider the situation of the ethnic Macedonians in Northern Greece (South Macedonia) before helping the kurds in Turkey

rofl rofl rofl

Could we please leave Greece out of this??? Thank you.

[Canadian2urk]

That's a racist state ambitions..you're aware that they'll be cleansing the Turks from that area just like they do in kirkuk and other parts of "kurdistan" in N. Iraq...right?

Also, coming from a Greek, it's a hypocracy...You should consider the situation of the ethnic Macedonians in Northern Greece (South Macedonia) before helping the kurds in Turkey ;)





You're media needs to update itself. If that was true, a Islamic Erdogan wouldn't be in power for the last five years and not looking at becoming a president in a few weeks.

I wish your assumption was true though ;)

Greekowned! lol

[Desk Jockey]

I suppose we both realize that politicians arent exactly running your country but your generals.

After Refa was removed in 1997, and the words of Erdogan, (help me guys I am paraphrasing) "our strengths are in our mosques" caused much discussion, we had the Virtue party, the party apparatus of Erdogan did not dissappear.

We have the AKP, Ergogan is PM, soon to be President, the Turks take the separation of Church and state seriously, yes, it is a tenant of the founding of the modern republic.

But Erdogan would not be around if the "Generals ran things", hell the 4th ID would have rolled through Northern Iraq in 2003.

That notion is simply wrong Achilles.

[Ergnkon]

After Refa was removed in 1997, and the words of Erdogan, (help me guys I am paraphrasing) "our strengths are in our mosques" caused much discussion, we had the Virtue party, the party apparatus of Erdogan did not dissappear.

He also said:

"With the help of Allah, we'll not heasitate to intruduce Shariah in Turkey"

"Democracy is not our goal, just our tool"

There is at least 15 quotations like those ^ from his speaces in his recent past...not to mention the picture of him sitting by the knees of Hekmetyar.

I'm sure many remembers him trying to pass a law in Turkey outlawing adultry just two years ago...many were glad tha secular Turkey didn't give into his similar demands.