FRENCH ELECTIONS - 2007, 22 April

[Sharp]

FRENCH ELECTIONS 2007 - FRANCE
http://www.host-images.com//out.php/i2171_drapeau_france.jpg

Ok this is not the first thread about elections so i think pretty interesting to make a thread about the next elections in France wich will happen soonly, the 22 April to be precisely (first round, and 6 May for the second and last round).

Different party in france :

- UMP (Union pour un Mouvement Populaire / Union for a Popular Movement) - Nicolas Sarkozy
- PS (Parti Socialiste / Socialist Party) - Ségolene Royal
- FN (Front National / National Front) - Jean-Marie Le Pen
- UDF (Union pour la Démocratie Française / Union for the French Democracy) - François Bayrou
- MPF (Mouvement pour la France / Movement for the France) -
- LCR (Ligue communiste révolutionnaire / Revolutionary Communist League)
- PCF (Parti Communiste Français)
- LO (Lutte Ouvrière / Labor fight)
- CF (Confederation Paysanne / Peasant confederacy) - José Bové
- Les Verts (Greens, ecologist party)

How Works the Electoral French System ?

Some points to make it up clear to you :

If someone want the right to can run for the presidential, then he have to get 500 "parrainages" , or voices. One voice represent the accordance of a town major.

A leader / Party have to get a total of 500 voices to have the right to present himself to the presidency.
It is can be pretty difficulit to obtain them for little leaders. Of course pressure and corruption are on their way.

Here is the list votes for the last elections, in 2002 :

71,6% of total voters
18,88% of votes for Jacques Chirac - UMP (droite, right)
16,18% of votes for Jean-Marie Le Pen - FN (extreme droite, far right)
16,18% of votes for Lionel Jospin - PS (gauche, left)
6,84 of votes for François Bayrou - UDF (centre, middle)

Ok so this was just for your understanding and little aknowledge about the french system.


http://www.generation-nt.com/images/biblio/misc/000000013809.jpg http://www.host-images.com//out.php/i2163_medium_060608093818.3vmxh3510_le-ministre-de-l-interieur-nicolas-sarkozy-le-7-jub.2.jpeg

Name : Nicolas Sarkozy
Age : 51 Years old, married, three childrens
Party : UMP

He is the son of a Hungarian immigrant, Pál Sárközy de Nagybocsa (in nagybocsai Hungarian Sárközy Pál) born in Budapest, in 1928, in a family of the Hungarian minor nobility. The great parents of Nicolas Sarkozy had acquired in 1918, the third of a domain of 705 acres, is a little more than 80 hectares, to Alattyán, a village in 100 km from the capital. In the arrival of the red Army in 1944, the family is expropriated and forced to the exile. After numerous events through Austria and Germany, Pál Sárközy meets a recruiter of the Foreign Legion to Baden-Baden. He undertakes for five years.

Nicolas Sarkozy is born in 1955; he is catholic baptized. He has two brothers.
Rather bad pupil, he doubles his sixth to the public secondary school Chaptal. This passage of the private to the public lasts only a school year; he is then a pupil at the deprived secondary school Saint Louis de Monceau. He obtains the high school diploma B in 1973 and the family settles down to Neuilly. After studies at the university Paris X, he goes out awarded a diploma in public law and in political sciences: he obtains a mastery of private law in 1978. In 1978, he is conscripted, before entering the Institute of political studies of Paris, "Faculty of political science", from which he does not obtain the diploma of the end of studies because of notes eliminating heats in English.
In 1981, having hesitated for a long time to become a journalist, he is resolved at the last moment to spend the postgraduate legal qualification (CAPA), so following the tracks of his mother. In the stride, he is engaged by lawyer's cabinet.




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Name : Ségolène Royal
Age : 54 Years old, married, four childrens
Party : PS

Ségolène Royal, been born Marie-Ségolène Royal on September 22nd, 1953 in Dakar in Senegal, at random of an appointment of his father career soldier, is a French politician. Member of the socialist Party, former Minister, she is a president of the regional council of Poitou-Charente since April, 2004 and a representative of Deux-Sèvres. She was indicated official candidate of the socialist Party for the presidential election of April, 2007 by the vote of the activists of the PS on November 16th, 2006 and invested in the Mutuality on November 26th.
Ségolène is the fourth of a number of eight children. Her family lives then in Martinique during three years because of another appointment of her father in 1960. She is then schooled to the boarding school Saint Joseph de Cluny to Fort-de-France.

Ségolène Royal makes some education one of its priorities (the region, as the others in France, dedicate near half of its budget to the training, the learning, the education and the higher education).
In economic subject, the region sets up a charter of mutual commitments which engages companies getting helps of the region not to be delocalized, not to be dismissed (if they make profits) and to respect the law in environment.




http://www.host-images.com//out.php/i2168_Logo_udf.png http://www.host-images.com//out.php/i2167_590px-BayrouEM.jpg

Name : François Bayrou
Age : 56 Years old, married, six childrens
Party : UDF

François René Jean Lucien Bayrou was born on May 25th, 1951 to Bordères, between Po and Lourdes. He is the son of Calixte Bayrou, farmer, and of Emma Sarthou (native of Serres-Morlaàs), farmer.
He gets married in 1971 at the age of 20 and follows studies in a literary preparatory class and at the University Bordeaux III. He obtains the aggregation of letters 23-year-old classical authors. His father dies from an industrial accident, and, while teaching, he helps his mother to hold the exploitation. He manages to overcome his stammering.
He is the author of a biography of Henri IV, free king, who gained a big success ( 300 000 sold copies). He dashed successfully into the breeding of runninghorses.
With his wife Élisabeth, he has six children (Hélène, Marie, Dominique, Calixte, Agnès, André) and twelve grandchildren.

Young person, François Bayrou is close to nonviolent movements, notably to Lanza del Vasto's community. In 30 years, in 1982, he becomes a councillor, then four years later delegated UDF of Pyrenees-Atlantic Ocean. Convinced laic teacher, of inspiration Christian Democrat, practising Catholic, it is a partisan lover of federal Europe.

In 1993, he is named a Minister of the Department of Education in the government of Édouard Balladur's cohabitation.




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Name : Jean-Marie Le Pen
Age : 79 Years old, married, three childrens
Party : FN

Jean-Marie Le Pen, been born on June 20th, 1928 in Trinité-sur-Mer ( Morbihan), is an extreme right French politician (or of « national right-hand side », according to his own expression), stemming from currents poujadistes. He is a president of the Front national ( FN) since the foundation of the party.

Jean-Marie Le Pen, been born Jean Marie Louis Le Pen, is the son of Jean Le Pen, boss fisherman, and from Anne-Marie Hervé, needlewoman and girl of farmers. To differentiate him of his father, his parents nicknamed him "Jeanjean". All his family is essentially native of the department of Morbihan. The word pen means in Breton "head", where from his nickname of "Menhir". Jean-Marie Le Pen becomes a war orphan: the boat where was his father having struck a mine, credibly German in 1942.
In November, 1944, at the age of 16, he asks to the colonel Henri de La Vaissière (alias Valin) to undertake in the FFI (French Forces of the inside), which prefers to refuse: « henceforth, order is given to make sure that our volunteers are over 18 well years. You are a war orphan: think of your mother! »
He is a pupil to the Holy Jesuit school François Xavier with Gates, then with the secondary school of Lorient. He enters then the Law Faculty of Paris. He is awarded a diploma by higher education of political sciences and bachelor of law. He was a president of the law students of Paris then, afterward, honorary president of "Corpo", from 1949 till 1951. While he begins in politics, he makes change his Jean's first name in Jean-Marie, his wife considering that this last one is more to attract the catholic electorate.


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All heads together

Some graphics now...

Where come from the new 2007 year's electors?

http://www.host-images.com//out.php/i2173_nouveaux_inscrits.JPG

Predictions polls for the first round

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Predictions polls for the second round

http://www.host-images.com//out.php/i2175_sondage_sego-sarko.JPG

and for the fun, yes it's pretty old ... Chirac to your left and Sarkozy to your right .. :) les tontons flingueurs du rpr ;)

http://www.host-images.com//out.php/i2176_nicolas-sarkozy-29.jpg

edit: sorry if there have mistakes or errors , or bad english use :) feel free to help and PM's me if something is wrong.

[Merfeller]

Wow. Thanks very much for that informative post! Who do you think will win?

[mas-36]

What about that hot babe Cindy lee? (I think thats her name)

[NuclearHead]

Damn dude, Royal is such a MILF.

But seriously I hope she loses for her socialistic ideas aren't very sound. Go Sarkozy or Le Pen.

[Belial]

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/4726/6038317jv0hu7.jpg

[p$ycho+log!cal]

sarko = mangeur de bite.

[Martel]

sarko = mangeur de bite.
For moderator who don't speak french, this nice guy is saying "sarkozy = **** eater" ...

[DeltaWhisky58]

For moderator who don't speak french, this nice guy is saying "sarkozy = **** eater" ...

Sorry - I thought it was French-Canadian for I'm a ****head, ban me! rofl

[DongFangBuBai]

Wow. Thanks very much for that informative post! Who do you think will win?

Many of my French military friends think that Sarkozy will win. Some say that he knows how to play the game while others are hopeful that he will have the balls to implement some strong medicine to revitalise the French economy.

[Snoshi]

Does Sarkozy have some Jewish blood? I have read that somewhere.

[Martel]

Does Sarkozy have some Jewish blood? I have read that somewhere.
His mother was jewish, converted to catholicism when she married Nicolas' father.

[Snoshi]

His mother was jewish, converted to catholicism when she married Nicolas' father.

So that means that he can forget the votes from extream right because he is a Jew?

[R.D.]

His mother was jewish, converted to catholicism when she married Nicolas' father.

http://www.linenoiz.com/pics/funny/its_a_conspiracy.jpg

rofl rofl rofl

[AROUETLJ]

Does Sarkozy have some Jewish blood? I have read that somewhere.

No, it's all Catholic blood. Said so himself.

[Martel]

So that means that he can forget the votes from extream right because he is a Jew?
Yeah, and forget votes from extrem left because he is a "zionist" (as they say ...)
Look how he is represented here in France by these as***** of extremists : http://www.toutsaufsarkozy.com/

[Martel]

What about that hot babe Cindy lee? (I think thats her name)
She didn't get the 500 mandatory signatures ;)
http://www.parti-du-plaisir.com/presidente/pres3/photos/pres1.jpg

[mas-36]

She didn't get the 500 mandatory signatures ;)
http://www.parti-du-plaisir.com/presidente/pres3/photos/pres1.jpg

I'll write my name 500 times, even though I'm not French! woot

[McNasty]

What? She looks like Miss Piggy without a snout.

[mas-36]

What? She looks like Miss Piggy without a snout.


meh...in that case put a bag over her head and do your business.p-) But she looks fine to me.

[Sharp]

Found that on France Television One (TF1) , about their next show , the 22/04/2007.



Dès 18h50, TF1 donnera une estimation de la participation. A 20 heures, elle donnera une estimation des résultats.

Sur le plateau, Patrick Poivre d'Arvor et Claire Chazal, François Bachy, chef du service politique de TF1 et Brice Teinturier, directeur de TNS-Sofres commenteront ces résultats.

Avec les porte-parole et soutiens des candidats : François Fillon, François Hollande, Jean-Louis Borloo, Jack Lang, Marine Le Pen, Hervé Morin, Robert Hue, Jean-Pierre Raffarin, Laurent Fabius, Philippe Douste-Blazy, Bernard Kouchner, Marielle de Sarnez...

Les envoyés spéciaux de TF1 interviendront en duplex des QG de tous les candidats et de toutes les grandes villes de France, avec les réactions à chaud des candidats, mais aussi des électeurs.



From 18 hours 50 (6.50 PM), TF1 will give an estimation of the participation. At 8 pm, she will give an estimation of the results.

On the tray, Patric Poivre d' Arvor and Claire Chazal, François Bachy, leader of the political service of TF1 and Brice Teinturier, director of TNS-Sofres will comment on these results.

With the spokesmen and the supports of the candidates: François Fillon, François Hollande, Jean-Louis Borloo, Jack Lang, Marine Le Pen, Hervé Morin, Robert Hue, Jean-Pierre Raffarin, Laurent Fabius, Philippe Douste-Blazy, Bernard Kouchner, Marielle de Sarnez...

The special messengers of TF1 will intervene in duplex apartment of the HQ of all the candidates and all the big cities of France, with the reactions to warmth of the candidates, but also the voters.

[Sharp]

Other news , this time about presidential runner , Jean-Marie Le Pen (FN).
Very interesting!


A l'heure où tous les électeurs-conducteurs se demandent jusqu'où ira cette année l'amnistie présidentielle concernant les infractions de la route, Jean-Marie Le Pen s'empare du dossier et prend le contre-pied notamment de son rival de l'UMP auteur de la politique répressive sur les routes. Rappelant qu'il procèdera s'il est élu à une "large amnistie", sauf des "faits délictuels" sur la route, le candidat du FN a tour à tour fustigé lundi le permis à points, les radars automatiques "espèce d'amende automatique qui sont devenus des sources de revenus", le taux d'alcoolémie "exagérément bas" et la limitation de vitesse sur les autoroutes.

Estimant lors d'une visite d'un musée de l'automobile à Reims que le système actuel aboutit à considérer les automobilistes comme "des présumés délinquants", Jean-Marie Le Pen "veut qu'on mette les automobilistes à l'abri de cette répression automatique". Il faut donc selon lui "remettre en cause le système du permis à points" et faire passer la circulation sur les autoroutes "à 150 km/heure", ce qui lui "paraîtrait sans risque supplémentaire d'accidents". D'autant que, selon le président du FN, "la circulation européenne" des camions qui sont impliqués "pratiquement neuf fois sur dix" dans des accidents, est en cause. "Je ne vois pas pourquoi on ne ferait pas une taxe à l'entrée de notre pays comme c'est le cas en Suisse, où vous devez acheter une vignette pour circuler."


When all the voters-drivers wonder to where will go this year pardons him presidential concerning the malpractices of the road, Jean-Marie Le Pen seizes the file and takes the contrary notably of his rival of the UMP author of the repressive policy on roads. Reminding that he will proceed if he is elected in a " wide amnesty ", except delectuals " facts " on the road, the candidate of the FN alternately fustigated on Monday the licence with points, the automatic radars " sort of automatic fine which became sources of incomes ", the rate of alcohol " excessively low " and the speed limit on highways.

Considering during a visit of a museum of the motorcar in Reims that the current system succeeds to consider the motorists as " presumed delinquent ", Jean-Marie Le Pen " wants that we put the motorists shielded from this automatic repression ". It is thus necessary according to him " to question the system of the licence with points " and make spend the traffic on highways " in 150 km / hour ", what he " would appear without supplementary risk of accidents ". As far as, according to the president of the FN, " the European traffic " of the lorries which are implied " practically nine times on ten " in accidents, is in question. " I do not see why we would not make a tax for the entrance of our country as it is the case in Switzerland, where you have to buy a logo to circulate."

He suggests increasing the limit in 150 kph on the highway instead of a 130km / hour current, what he " would appear without supplementary risk of accidents ".

[Sharp]

French version


ISF : Nicolas Sarkozy pique une colère contre Libération

Le candidat UMP à la présidentielle aurait appelé l'actionnaire majoritaire du quotidien pour lui dire son mécontentement après la Une du 1er mars titrée:"Impôt sur la fortune de Sarkozy : le soupçon".

Selon une source interne à la rédaction en chef de Libération, confirmant une information du site internet de L'Express, Nicolas Sarkozy aurait téléphoné à Edouard de Rothschild, pour lui faire part de son mécontentement après la Une de Libération le 1er mars.
Le quotidien titrait ainsi: "Impôt sur la fortune de Sarkozy : le soupçon". Le candidat UMP à la présidentielle aurait pris son téléphone pour dire directement à Edouard de Rothschild, actionnaire de référence du journal ce qu'il pensait du journal, le qualifiant notamment de "sectaire de gauche".

"Journal de merde"

Nicolas Sarkozy aurait ajouté que "cela empêcherait sans doute le quotidien de trouver des gens pour le financer". Contactée par nouvelobs.com, une source interne à la rédaction en chef, qui souhaite garder l'anonymat, indique que le PDG de Libération, Laurent Joffrin, a confirmé l'information en conférence de rédaction mercredi 7 mars.
L'échange entre Edouard de Rotschild et Nicolas Sarkozy aurait été "musclé", le candidat de l'UMP se laissant même aller à employer des termes "grossiers", qualifiant, entre autre, Libération de "journal de merde".
D'après une autre source interne à Libération, le coup de téléphone aurait "beaucoup fait rire Edouard de Rothschild".
English version

STF (money tax): Nicolas Sarkozy pricks an anger against Libération

The UMP candidate with presidential would have called the shareholder majority daily newspaper for him to say his dissatisfaction after the One with March 1 (Ttile of the TV show) titrated: " Wealth tax of Sarkozy: the suspicion ".

According to an internal source with the drafting as a chief of Release, confirming information of Internet site of L'Express, Nicolas Sarkozy would have telephoned to Edouard de Rothschild, to make him share of his dissatisfaction after the One with Release on March 1. The daily newspaper titrated as follows: " Wealth tax of Sarkozy: the suspicion ". The UMP candidate with presidential would have taken his telephone to say directly to Edouard de Rothschild, shareholder of reference of the newspaper this qu'il thought of the newspaper, qualifying it in particular " sectarian of left ".

Newspaper of ****.

Nicolas Sarkozy would have added that " that would undoubtedly prevent the daily newspaper from finding people to finance it ". Contacted by nouvelobs.com, an internal source with the drafting as a chief, who wishes to keep l'anonymat, indicates that the chairman of Release, Laurent Joffrin, confirmed the information in conference of drafting Wednesday March 7. The contact between Edouard de Rotschild and Nicolas Sarkozy would have been " muscular ", the candidate of l'UMP letting himself even go to employ "bad" terms;, qualifying, amongst other things, Release of " newspaper of **** ". From another source internal with Libération, the telephone call would have " much made laugh Edouard de Rothschild ".

[Sharp]

Sarkozy against Liberation newspaper, now against France 3 TV channel !

French version


Sarkozy s'emporte contre la direction de France 3

Obligé de patienter avant de se faire maquiller pour participer à "France Europe Express", le candidat UMP s'en est pris à la direction de la chaîne publique: "il faut la virer".

Selon Le Canard enchaîné paru mercredi 21 mars, le ministre de l'Intérieur et candidat UMP, Nicolas Sarkozy, a piqué une grosse colère, dimanche 18 mars, dans les locaux de France 3.
Invité de l'émission "France Europe Express", animée par Christine Ockrent, Nicolas Sarkozy est arrivé avec "une escouade de garde du corps, de conseillers et sa maquilleuse personnelle". Mais une fois dans la loge, le candidat a été invité à patienter, tous les sièges étant déjà occupés par les autres invités de l'émission.

Au bout d'un moment, le ministre a perdu patience, toujours selon l'hebdomadaire satirique: "Je ne veux pas attendre plus longtemps, je veux me faire maquiller tout de suite". Puis, encore un peu plus tard: "Mais enfin, il n'y a personne pour m'accueillir. La direction n'est pas là? Ce n'est pas normal. Qu'est-ce qu'ils font? Qui suis-je pour être traité ainsi ?".

Nicolas Sarkozy aurait alors fait mine de partir, déclenchant la panique parmi les journalistes, avant de "péter les plombs": "Personne n'est là pour m'accueillir. Toute cette direction, il faut la virer. Je ne peux pas le faire maintenant. Mais ils ne perdent rien pour attendre. Ca ne va pas tarder."
English version

Sarkozy carries himself against the direction of France 3

Obliged to have patience before being made make up to take part in "France Europe Express train", the UMP candidate was caught some with the direction of the public chain: "it should be transfered".

According to "Le Canard enchainé" published Wednesday March 21, the candidate and Minister of Interior Department UMP, Nicolas Sarkozy, has pricks a large anger, Sunday March 18, in the buildings of France 3.
Invited emission "France Europe Express", animated by Christine Ockrent, Nicolas Sarkozy arrived with "section of adviser, bodyguard and his personal make-up girl". But once in the cabin, the candidate was invited to have patience, all the seats being already occupied by the other guests of the emission show.

At the end of one moment, the minister lost patience, always according to the satirical weekly magazine: "I do not want to wait longer, I want to be made make up immediately". Then, still a little later: "But finally, there is nobody to accomodate me. Isn't the direction there? It is not normal. What do they make? Who I am to be treated thus?".

Nicolas Sarkozy would then have made pretence leave, starting panic among the journalists, before "péter leads": "Nobody is there to accomodate me. All this direction, it should be transfered. I cannot do it now. But they do not lose anything to wait. that will not delay."

I do not know if the word were quite selected by the translator , but here , the meant of "transferred" is clearly "lay off" .

[gilgoul]

So, since I'm not a resident anymore, I won't vote. But I was wondering, what is going to be the voting trend among our french voters. I guess not Besancenot nor Bové, but there could be some surprises.

[Sharp]

This is how i see the winners, depending of who will be in the second round :

Sarkozy vs Bayrou : Bayrou winner
Segolene vs Bayrou : Bayrou Winner
Segolene vs Sarkozy : Sarko winner
Le Pen vs Sarkozy or Segolene ? Hard to say, since segolene would give order to vote for sarko, and sargo probably give order to vote for sego.

Besancenot ? Well, i don't give much credit , how can someone said to be against "unemployement" and from another side want to delete the Defense budget and his personal (+300 000 person) .. one thing parmis tant d'autres.

But there can be a surprise from the "little" leaders , like Chasse & Peche,the Greens etc , because they still can give order to vote for le pen if he's on the second turn.

[DongFangBuBai]

To the French posters here, please do not take this as an insult nor a criticism. I'm genuinely interested in understanding the French system.

I've observed several main issues:

1) Immigrants and children of immigrants who have no desire to integrate or are descriminated against. I'm referring to the banlieue situation.

2) Perhaps this was linked to the first point. I observed the CPE riots/ manisfestations last year right at my door steps. I understand that the ones disagreeing with the CPE are a different group of youths. As I understood (pardon me if I'm mistaken), CPE was the government's (Villepin) attempt to address the low employment rate (causing the riots of 2005). The law was passed and legalised but the government gave in after the Anit-CPE riots. Question: I've discussed with my French friends (military) and a couple of white collar workers and all agree that CPE needs to happen but perhaps it was a little too harsh. However, they admitted that the system needs to change but the French public is very unwilling to change, especially if it meant some sacrifice.

3) Les heures, 35-hr work week. Is this going to change? Friends say that many would like to work more to earn more but are prevented legally from doing so.

4) Radical islamization. While I understand that this is a worldwide phenomenon, I remember reading that the French Govt had little idea of the size and extent of the issue simply because they do not have official data. For example, it is forbidden to track a person by race and religon. There were reports that police and gendarmes were ambushed just on the outskirts of Paris and the groups are increasingly violent. Is there an effort to deal with this?

5) In my stay here, I've met a lot of french military officers (>500) be it in Ecole Militaire or during base visits. I've not seen a single officer of African nor Arabic decent. I've only spotted one LCL who is asiatique. I find this odd considering how many 'non-white' sous-officiers there are. Is egalité, Liberté et Fratenité working?

[Atlantic Friend]

To the French posters here, please do not take this as an insult nor a criticism. I'm genuinely interested in understanding the French system.

I've observed several main issues:

1) Immigrants and children of immigrants who have no desire to integrate or are descriminated against. I'm referring to the banlieue situation.

Most definitely an issue. May be part of a larger issue which is increasingly common in every Western country : a growing part of the citizenry wants nothing to do with civic duties or even acting responsibly, and is just here for hand-outs to which they think they are entitled because of their social/ethnic/political/family background.


2) Perhaps this was linked to the first point. I observed the CPE riots/ manisfestations last year right at my door steps. I understand that the ones disagreeing with the CPE are a different group of youths. As I understood (pardon me if I'm mistaken), CPE was the government's (Villepin) attempt to address the low employment rate (causing the riots of 2005). The law was passed and legalised but the government gave in after the Anit-CPE riots. Question: I've discussed with my French friends (military) and a couple of white collar workers and all agree that CPE needs to happen but perhaps it was a little too harsh. However, they admitted that the system needs to change but the French public is very unwilling to change, especially if it meant some sacrifice.

To be fair, one has to separate the riots from the protests. The CPE law was half-baked, and de Villepin was particularly apt at painting himself into a corner and ruffling everybody's feathers the wrong way - mostly on account of him being a world-class jerk. The protests, like every mass movement, were used as an opportunity for full-fledged rioters, who would have been taxed to even say what the letters CPE actually stood for.

A similar law could have been passed without protests - and thus without riots - with a little more finesse from the head of the government.


3) Les heures, 35-hr work week. Is this going to change? Friends say that many would like to work more to earn more but are prevented legally from doing so.

Regardless of whoever wins (among the major candidates), the 35-hour week will be heavily modified IMHO.


4) Radical islamization. While I understand that this is a worldwide phenomenon, I remember reading that the French Govt had little idea of the size and extent of the issue simply because they do not have official data. For example, it is forbidden to track a person by race and religon. There were reports that police and gendarmes were ambushed just on the outskirts of Paris and the groups are increasingly violent. Is there an effort to deal with this?

Radical Islamization is an issue that needs to be separated the 2005 riots, which were not religously-motivated, but more the produce of growing violence by youth gangs. In this respect, ethnic issues seem a bigger problem for everyday violence, while Islam radicalization is a less visible and more fundamental threat. Again, it's my humble opinion.


5) In my stay here, I've met a lot of french military officers (>500) be it in Ecole Militaire or during base visits. I've not seen a single officer of African nor Arabic decent. I've only spotted one LCL who is asiatique. I find this odd considering how many 'non-white' sous-officiers there are. Is egalité, Liberté et Fratenité working?

From the outside perspective of a civvy, I think European armies in general are regrettably less keen than the US Army on pushing good NCOs to become officers. As such, the French Army isn't the integration tool it could otherwise be. Things seem to be going in the right direction - I can think of at least two officers I know who are of Arab descent for example - but way too slowly.

[Atlantic Friend]

So, since I'm not a resident anymore, I won't vote. But I was wondering, what is going to be the voting trend among our french voters. I guess not Besancenot nor Bové, but there could be some surprises.

I personally lean toward Bayrou for very subjective reasons, but I'll vote for Sarkozy.

[Musashi]

I personally lean toward Bayrou for very subjective reasons, but I'll vote for Sarkozy.
Good choice. That man seems to have cojones and if I were you I would vote for him, too.

[Atlantic Friend]

Good choice. That man seems to have cojones and if I were you I would vote for him, too.

Working (although indirectly) for his Socialist opponent makes it some form of moral obligation.

[AROUETLJ]

Re. all those points you mentioned above, I've been living here for close to a year now, so here goes:

The Anti-CPE riots/protests were nothing but the usual student reaction to anything. I said it once, and I'll say it again, France is still living under the shadow of May 1968. It's difficult for any government to change anything, given that a vast majority of students will go on strike or protest withoutb even understanding what they're protesting against.

re. Officers from "ethnic minorities" (I hate the term, but I'll use it for the sake of clarity). It's all linked to qualifications. Obviously if you're qualified you're more likely to go straight to St Cyr.

Radical islamisation, and I'm going out on a limb on this, is less of a problem in France than the media make it out to be. The DNAT is doing a very good job, and a large number of networks have been dismantled. Note too that the November 2005 were NOT, as the English-speaking media put it, "an Intifada" (i.e. giving the whole thing a religious Muslim vs. The Rest twist). What IS worrying is the European/Black/Maghrebin division along cultural lines, with each group having its own icons and its own music. And that's not just a French problem.

re. Les 35 heures. Something will have to change, but so far unemployment has been going down even with this rule in place, so thingss aren't that gloomy.

Now I'll say one thing. I think the French are among the least racist people on the planet. I've never experienced racism over here, and believe me, if you look closely, I do stand out. Perhaps it's just my impression, but they relate to people as individuals, regardless of anything else. That's one of the best qualities they have.

[DongFangBuBai]

Now I'll say one thing. I think the French are among the least racist people on the planet. I've never experienced racism over here, and believe me, if you look closely, I do stand out. Perhaps it's just my impression, but they relate to people as individuals, regardless of anything else. That's one of the best qualities they have.

I beg to differ. In my line of work, I've lived in Australia for 4 years, USA for 2 years and now in France for 18 months. I mix around with the 'learned', elite, 'enlightened'. Military officers who should have seen and interacted not only within Europe but also beyond its frontiers. I must say that I've never felt so discriminated in my life. I'm asian and comparing the 3 western societies that I've just mentioned, I don't feel welcomed nor accepted in France, even though I was invited by the French government. I mean this with no ill intent. Just want to let you know the reality. For example when I was at the Marie (town council), I was spoken down to, ignored or even ridiculed, even when I identified myself as a étranger and senior military officer. By the way, the functioner didn't treat the next Français the same way as he treated me. This happened to me several times and at other places, La poste, Gare, hospital, police. Perhaps it's my damn luck or I look like a horse's ass. My experiences were also corroborated by my other international friends (officers).
Perhaps I should qualify by saying that most of my bad experiences (at least with civi french) are with Parisians.

[DongFangBuBai]

re. Officers from "ethnic minorities" (I hate the term, but I'll use it for the sake of clarity). It's all linked to qualifications. Obviously if you're qualified you're more likely to go straight to St Cyr.

I'm going out on a limb on this,

Since you're kind enough to 'go out on a limb' for me... I'll return the kind gesture.

I had the opportunity to speak to the director general of Humain Resource of Armée de l'Air and told him my observation on the lack of 'non-white' officers. I am not going to reveal some privileged information but I'll share 2 words that he used: "Not integrated''. I'm rather surprised by this because I was bombarded by how great the armée is for social integration and that is certainly very true for the sous-officiers (other ranks). Guess it doesn't apply to the elitist officer corps.

[roland]

Now I'll say one thing. I think the French are among the least racist people on the planet. I've never experienced racism over here, and believe me, if you look closely, I do stand out. Perhaps it's just my impression, but they relate to people as individuals, regardless of anything else. That's one of the best qualities they have.

As a french I'm not the best placed to comment but what I think is that you're right and wrong.

Right because traditionaly we are rather color blind and don't have racial conciousness.

Wrong because we are getting more and more racists.

That's because a lot of foreigners came here and bring there culture with them intead of letting it where they come from and are arrogants.
People blame it on them and are getting racist but that's a mistake. The blame lies in the may 68 socialist multiculturalism soft approach that let them think that they can stay here without adopting our values and not mixing with the rest of the population contrary to the previous waves of immigration where childrens first course at school started by "our ancestor the Gauls"
I think this multicultural crap is over and we are going to fix that. But since it's all based on education it must take long and we don't have to expect to complete the process of assimilation before one or two generation. It can't be done too fast to avoid radicalisation. But it has to be a slow but firm process starting by closing the door to all new immigration for a few tens of years. But what's a few tens of years for a millenaire country ?
But it have to be done. The French are open minded but not tolerant. The immigrant sons HAVE to mix. If they don't and live as foreigners on part of our soil that's as if foreigners occupy part of our sacred soil and the French can't accept it for long. Pushing to the extrem the tendency of those last years with increasing racism, increasing "communautarism" (short definition: community based loyalty) and religious crap can only result in a disaster compared to whitch the St Barthelemy would look like a little dispute.
But fortunatelly, contrary to what we can read here and there specially on anglo media, we are far from such a situation and the immigrant sons are much more french than a lot think



Europe: Study Shows France Leading In Muslim Integration
By Julie A. Corwin (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:newWindow%28%27/features/authors/corwin.asp%27,325,280%29) http://gdb.rferl.org/da1d06e8-cdc8-48a2-a35e-6b497c3c45b8_w220.jpgRioting in Toulouse in November 2005(AFP) WASHINGTON, August 24, 2006 (RFE/RL) -- A new analysis by the Washington-based Pew Research Center suggests that European countries with significant Muslim populations may be well advised to study the French model of integration. The Pew data shows that French Muslims are embracing assimilation more eagerly than their counterparts in other European countries.


After the riots in Parisian suburbs and other French cities by mainly Muslim youths late last year, few international and domestic analysts were touting the soundness of the French government's policies toward its Muslim population.
Critics charged French society with discriminating against people of North African descent and Muslims generally. Such discrimination, they claimed, fueled the riots.
Economically Driven Dissatisfaction
However, the Pew Center's survey data paints a different picture of the violence, putting France's treatment of Muslims in a more favorable light.
"When we look at the riots last year in France, they appear to have been heavily economically driven rather than driven by religion -- by the fact that there are very high rates of unemployment among French Muslims rather than by a zealous desire to convert or extinguish those of other faiths," Jodie Allen, a senior editor at Pew, told RFE/RL.
Thirty-seven percent of French Muslims reported a bad experience due to their race, ethnicity, or religion, compared to 28 percent among British Muslims.
French Muslims, like Muslims in the rest of Europe, are concerned about unemployment. France has an estimated 5 million Muslims, comprising about 8 percent of the population. By contrast, Muslims make up less than 3 percent of the population in the United Kingdom and Denmark.
French Muslims Ready To Assimilate
More than half of French Muslims are concerned about joblessness, according to survey data collected by Pew in April 2006. But unlike their coreligionists elsewhere, a substantial majority embraces the customs of their countrymen.
"Nearly eight in 10 French Muslims generally say they want to adopt French customs," Allen said. "And this high preference for assimilation certainly compares with that in Spain, although Spanish Muslims tend also to come from North Africa. Only 53 percent of Muslims in Spain say they want to adopt Spanish customs. Only 41 percent in Britain say the same about British customs. And nearly 30 percent in Germany say that. So you can see that in some sense the Muslims in France feel more at home in that country."
As with the Paris riots last fall, the arrests of British-born Muslims in London in connection with an alleged plot to blow up airliners have prompted speculation that ethnic discrimination and joblessness have made Islamic extremism attractive to British Muslims. But French Muslims also face unemployment and prejudice. In fact, 37 percent of French Muslims reported a bad experience due to their race, ethnicity, or religion, compared to 28 percent among British Muslims.
Differing Worldviews
Yet, the worldviews of French and British Muslims are worlds apart, according to Allen.
http://gdb.rferl.org/3E781490-10FE-41FA-8840-5B6AAAF5DD8F_w220.jpg Muslims working at a Burger King near Paris (AFP file photo)"When you ask questions about things like [potential] Iranian nuclear weapons -- this is a very striking finding," Allen said. "When we asked whether they favored or opposed Iran acquiring nuclear weapons, fully 71 percent of French Muslims opposed it, whereas only 41 percent of British Muslims opposed it. You just sort of see a different worldview operating there. I think it is partly French culture, and it is also partly the culture that their family lived in North Africa, too, in a more secularized outlook and a feeling that religion can be separated from the state."
Some of the difference between British and French Muslims can be attributed to ethnicity and country of origin. Nearly three-quarters of British Muslims are from South Asia -- Pakistan or India -- while French Muslims are predominantly from Morocco and Algeria, where they were already exposed to French culture.
Historically, French colonial policy emphasized the "civilizing effects" of the French language and culture, while the British Empire allowed its subjects more room to maintain their own cultures, discouraging integration.
In 2004, the French government began expelling foreign clerics that it deemed to be preaching intolerance toward other religions. In addition, would-be imams studying in French mosques must demonstrate their proficiency in French.
Few French Muslims perceive a conflict between being a devout Muslim and living in French society. Some 72 percent of those surveyed see no conflict, compared with only 49 percent in Great Britain.
Perhaps it is not coincidental then that the broader French public -- some 74 percent -- also sees no conflict, while only 35 percent of the British public agrees with this sentiment.


http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/08/8c29f0a2-1e7f-43f6-8341-98ba1e9e7afc.html

[AROUETLJ]

I'll report back on the topic when I've lived here for a few more months!

At least though, the French don't think, unlike some other Europeans, that Africa starts just south of Rome.

And re. May 1968, allow me to say this: It's ****ed up your universities. The Charte universitaire is the whole reason why French universities score poorly in international classifications, even though you have an excellent teaching system, some brilliant students, and top-notch research institutes. That, and the student protest culture, which means they'll go on strike (students "on strike"??) every June. Politics and campuses is a recipe for disaster.

Over here they call me a Facho because I don't have bobo intello-orgasms when they mention May 1968.

[Sharp]

Can you tell us more about the "Charte universitaire" ?

[AROUETLJ]

Can you tell us more about the the "Charte universitaire" ?

Basically it's the set of rules which govern French universities. Among them is the uniformisation of entry requirements across all universities i.e. French universities cannot set their own entry requirements, and neither can departments or faculties within them. If you have your Bac, you're good to go, and can get into university. All this was done, presumably to prevent the creation of a "two tier" system, with some elite universities, and a bunch of mediocre ones. The problem is, as I always point out to my French colleagues, that elite higher education institutes do exist: Les grandes écoles (Polytechnique, ENA, etc). And it goes further. No public exams between primary and secondary school, no public exams between secondary and higher secondary/last two years of Bac. I went through an educational system that's modelled on the British one. I had to sit for public exams between primary and secondary school, between secondary and sixth form, and between sixth form and university. The French system is too easy, until you get to the Fac. Then you have 50% of students dropping out or changing courses in their first year. That's not the way to go.

Another good idea would be to relax the strict separation between chercheur, maître de conférences, ingénieur-chercheur, etc. You have a ridiculous system where people who do the same job have a different salary.

One good thing which needs to be kept (it's not all doom and gloom) is the "stage" during the DEA/Master, which is a good introduction to the world of industry or research.

Oh and another thing, and may Marianne forgive me for saying this, of all people. French Government Scholarships must be handed out strictly on academic merit. As things stand, you have too many African students coming over on a BGF, milking all the benefits, and then raising **** against France. I know people who've been on selection committees for the ENA scholarships, and they'll tell you that you get students at interviews not even knowing what they've applied for.

[Olybrius]

......


a bit trivial and superficiel ;)
so , for the most part , you have only met french officiers in Ecole Militaire ..and there, you have seen a lot of non white sous-officiers but only one asian french officier... (the truth is you probably seen dozens of them but from african armies not from the French Army)

The Ecole Militaire is like Saint-Cyr, there you will mostly meet officiers with a strong and old vocation , and it's true that many of them are belonging to very old (and often noble) white french family with sometimes several centuries of military story. It's not a problem about integration it's mostly a cultural thing .. especially when you compare the average wage level with the required school level ...
btw ,i doubt that there is a higher % of non white officer in west point.

You will find many more non-white officiers in operationnals units , most of them are coming from the french DOM-TOM and many from La Reunion island, in all my career in the army i was always amazed to see the incredible number of black officiers/sous officiers coming from this single island .. a perfect example of a successfull integration in the french army.

btw , you 're in france since 18 months , you're still not able to spell correctly mairie or hopital ... and you feel discriminated...

[Sharp]

11 Days last!

The election seem to have take a more soft way ..

[Sharp]

sample of european show "Planète presse" "World press" on french presidentials , today , 19h00 to 19h45 on the French/German channel , Arte.

http://www.arte.tv/planetepresse

http://www.arte.tv/de/geschichte-gesellschaft/ARTE-info/Planet-Presse/1453588,CmC=1461934.html

[Litti]

I firmly support Segolene Royal in these elections. She has a healthy attitude towards Middle-East and the European Union in general. I dont really know about her domestic policies but since she´s a socialist I would assume that she supports a higher minimum wage, better unemployment benefits and improved education.

[Cpl Steiner]

I firmly support Segolene Royal in these elections. She has a healthy attitude towards Middle-East and the European Union in general. I dont really know about her domestic policies but since she´s a socialist I would assume that she supports a higher minimum wage, better unemployment benefits and improved education.

:)

So basically you support the same old same old.

Yeah socialism has done so much for Europe,especially France.

Better unemployment benefits? Instead of getting a job?

I thought that those poor,down trodden 'youths' were rioting because they cannot get a job in racist France,so how will better unemployment benefits benefit them?

Socialism has had its day in Europe,people need to extract their thumbs from their backsides and stop relying on the welfare state.

Also what is a 'healthy attitude to the middle east'?

Turning France into an Islamic state?

A white liberals wet dream maybe.

[Zarathustra]

11 Days last!

The election seem to have take a more soft way ..

Let's say that the people around me here are pretty much all assured that Sarko will win, so we're all losing interests (even the french, first supposed concerned!) about this election.

So this will be Sarko, who wants a "break" with France's 30 last years of politics (inside and international).

[Sharp]

sample of european show "Planète presse" "World press" on french presidentials , today , 19h00 to 19h45 on the French/German channel , Arte.

http://www.arte.tv/planetepresse

http://www.arte.tv/de/geschichte-gesellschaft/ARTE-info/Planet-Presse/1453588,CmC=1461934.html

i'm currently uploading the tv show, with french and german language.
There had : 1 French, Italian, Polish, German and Netherland journalist from their national newspaper here to speak of the french elections and give their opinion (very interesting).

[Martel]

I firmly support Segolene Royal in these elections. She has a healthy attitude towards Middle-East and the European Union in general. I dont really know about her domestic policies but since she´s a socialist I would assume that she supports a higher minimum wage, better unemployment benefits and improved education.
Segolene Royal ... She can speak during 10 minutes and say nothing, she's pathetic.

[Sharp]

Arte Show Available (http://s141165764.onlinehome.fr/arte.ts) (FR/DE audio channel).

[xav]

http://medias.lefigaro.fr/photos/20070412.WWW000000418_25825_3.jpg I like this photo montage by The Economist

[Sharp]

4 days left.

[Zarathustra]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6570947.stm

[Zarathustra]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6566649.stm

[Loki77]

http://medias.lefigaro.fr/photos/20070412.WWW000000418_25825_3.jpg I like this photo montage by The Economist
Sarkozy is not good for France..

I prefer Bayrou (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Bayrou)...His platform promotes job creation, better educational standards and a stronger European Union...

[xav]

I have to drive 70 miles (both way so 140) to go vote in Orlando tomorow.
Well i guess I am lucky I don't have to go all the way to Miami.

Any other members voting in the US here?

[Sharp]

if im not wrong the US don't allow their expat to vote?

[Dinivan]

I hope frenchs decide to vote for Bayrou, not only because we need a strong pro-European France together with Merkel, but also because he has good ideas and because as he is in the centre nobody would feel completely excluded and defeated.
And as socialist as I am in social matters, if the second round ends being Sarkozy vs Ségolène I would for sure vote for Sarkozy, because if Ségolène implements her proposals she will ruin the french economy, something which would hurt the entire Union.

[Merfeller]

if im not wrong the US don't allow their expat to vote?

False. US expats can vote via absentee ballot from anywhere. They just have to register. I have voted from three different countries.

[BMF_EOD]

if im not wrong the US don't allow their expat to vote?

US citizens living outside the country are allowed to vote. I have mailed in my ballot for the last 3 election due to my location.

[Merfeller]

I hope frenchs decide to vote for Bayrou, not only because we need a strong pro-European France together with Merkel, but also because he has good ideas and because as he is in the centre nobody would feel completely excluded and defeated.
And as socialist as I am in social matters, if the second round ends being Sarkozy vs Ségolène I would for sure vote for Sarkozy, because if Ségolène implements her proposals she will ruin the french economy, something which would hurt the entire Union.

Very interesting. I hope you can give us some analysis when it is over, will you?

[roland]

I hope frenchs decide to vote for Bayrou, not only because we need a strong pro-European France together with Merkel, but also because he has good ideas and because as he is in the centre nobody would feel completely excluded and defeated.
And as socialist as I am in social matters, if the second round ends being Sarkozy vs Ségolène I would for sure vote for Sarkozy, because if Ségolène implements her proposals she will ruin the french economy, something which would hurt the entire Union.

With Royal It would be more of the same sh:t, with Bayrou it would just be the same sh:t like it is since 30 years since he wont be able to do anything. Little difference except that it would take longer to go to bankrupcy.

[Pille1234]

Did the riots and the government's reaction strengthen or weaken Sarkozy?

[xav]

For those who want to know the estimations all day before 8 Pm check the swiss and belgium medias:

http://ansermoz.blog.24heures.ch/politique-francaise/le-sondage-interdit.html#c10

http://www.tdg.ch/

http://www.lesoir.be/

;)

[Sharp]

Did the riots and the government's reaction strengthen or weaken Sarkozy?

not Sarkozy but Le Pen yes (far right).
but indirectly it then served sarko yes (right).

@Xav > real scores will be given at 20:00hours (8 pm)

i personally will vote in few hours.

[Herrmannek]

I'm hopping for LePen... Although any info I got about him is second hand... But If French media are ignoring him as Polish ones he can't be a bad candidate...

[Zarathustra]

A voté !

Y'avait du monde...

ddddddddddd

[Switek]

After I was going thru different media and this thread I see that this no good day for France. There are no real statesman in France, now.

Seem that today's elections will be much more against, than pro... This situation sounds familirar. Pity

[Snoshi]

I know that Royal will win.. :( all immigrants will vote for her

[Sharp]

I know that Royal will win.. :( all immigrants will vote for her
what do you bet?

[Herrmannek]

what do you bet?

He already did... His life is on a stake :)

[Scourge]

I voted Bayrou 3 hours ago !

[ultra_mat]

and i voted Royal and my parents where immigrants...from Spain via Algeria (pied noirs, and FFL) and England...
keep your immigrant remarks to yourself, immigrants build the old french empire...
part of the french history...
"liberte,egalite,fraternite..."

[Sgt Kanderer]

Bayrou for me .

[Martel]

I'm hopping for LePen... Although any info I got about him is second hand... But If French media are ignoring him as Polish ones he can't be a bad candidate...
Le Pen who said no problem that Iran get the bomb, and holocaust is a detail ?? Very clever choice ...

As ultra-mat, half of my family came from Spain and Italy via Algeria but I voted for Sarkozy.

[xav]

11h30 Dimanche : Très forte participation dans les DOM/TOM, ainsi que dans les banlieues métropolitaines, énormément de jeunes. En Martinique-Guadeloupe, Bayrou y ferait mieux que prévu, tout comme on noterait un bond en avant énorme pour Le Pen, selon des commentaires directs sur les poubelles des isoloirs et des indiscrétions de forums. Sarkozy serait planté et Sego l’emporterait devant Bayrou.

Martinique Radio reports huge participation.
Rumors: Better than expected for Bayrou, as well as Lepen. Sarkozy not so good and Royal is reported in front of Bayrou.

(But in Martinique and Guadeloupe Giscard won in 1981, Chirac in 1988, Jospin in 2002, and Taubira had a huge score...so yeah DOM-TOM always votes the opposite of Mainland...

[xav]

Polling station: Fare HUAHINE FRENCH POLYNESIA Résultts around 21h30

locale (9h30GMT)
registered: 1340
Voter 819
blank 7
voted 812

SARKOZY 417 51,35% ROYAL 297 36,58% BAYROU 43 5,30% LE PEN 25 3,08% VOYNET 9 1,11% BOVE 7 0,86% BESANCENOT 6 0,74% BUFFET 6 0,74% DE VILLIER 1 0,12% LAGUILLER 1 0,12% SCHIVARDI 0 0,00% NIHOUS 0 0,00%

Ok based on 819 votes...small city (or village) but this contrast the results from french Antilles above...
Conclusion: Nothing is sure yet....

[Belial]

I sensed a huge participation. It's the first time I've seen so many people in voting offices. Went to two different ones as my wife and I don't vote in the same office. Both were overcrowded at 10. Lots of young and elderly people in both the urban and peri-urban ones.
Voted for Bayrou due to the lack of alternatives. Waiting for tonight now.

[Herrmannek]

Le Pen who said no problem that Iran get the bomb, and holocaust is a detail ?? Very clever choice ...

Taken out of context, such statements never have a sense...

[Zarathustra]

Sego up in French Antilles (first results, they voted yesterday) isn't surprising.

Wait until 6PM GMT for first reliable estimation.

8PM for the official result.

[frenchy]

I've voted this morning. More people than usual.

[Guerrier_Franc]

Quote:
11h30 Dimanche : Très forte participation dans les DOM/TOM, ainsi que dans les banlieues métropolitaines, énormément de jeunes. En Martinique-Guadeloupe, Bayrou y ferait mieux que prévu, tout comme on noterait un bond en avant énorme pour Le Pen, selon des commentaires directs sur les poubelles des isoloirs et des indiscrétions de forums. Sarkozy serait planté et Sego l’emporterait devant Bayrou.

...


where did you read that ?

[Zarathustra]

where did you read that ?

Des indiscretions de forums. ;)

[Zarathustra]

French in Exile are voting en masse for "Sarko l'Americain"

[Guerrier_Franc]

Des indiscretions de forums. ;)

Mouais j'accorde pas beaucoup d'importance aux rumeurs...

[Belial]

Mouais j'accorde pas beaucoup d'importance aux rumeurs...

Agreed, the only way to know is to wait for the evening's estimations and for the definite results.

[Zarathustra]

Yep... basically rumours until Late this afternoon.

[Martel]

Taken out of context, such statements never have a sense...
Yeah ... Le Pen is always taken out of the context, all the story of his life, poor Jean-Marie ...

[Atlantic Friend]

The electors flocked to the voting stations where I live. Abstention should be quite low this time. As for the results, we'll see...Count one more vote for the small excited candidate !

[frenchy]

Well it will be tightened.

[xav]

My source for the rumors:

http://www.lesogres.tv/article.php3?id_article=88

latest rumors:

Je vous livre un sondage sorti des urnes (IFOP) avec une fourchette incertitude de 4% et après correctif. Sondage connu des états-majors UMP, PS et UDF. 1 - Bayrou : 23 (21-25) 2 - Royal : 22,5 (20,5-24,5) 3 - Sarkosy : 21,5 (19,5-23,5) 4 - Le Pen : 16 (14-18) 5 - Besancenot : 5,5 (4,5-6) 6 - Buffet : 3 (2,5-3,5) 7 - Laguiller : 2 (1,8-2,2) 8 - Bové : 1,5 (1,4-1,6) 9 - Voynet : 1,5 (1,4-1,6) 10 - Shivardi : 1,5 (1,3-1,7) 11 - De Villiers : 1 12 - Nihous : 1

Le Pen n’a aucunne chance d’être au second tour et Sarkosy risque d’échouer d’être au second (comme Jospin en 2002 alors qu’on le donne élu président). La surprise serait Bayrou qui fait le plein chez les jeunes, les indécis et dans les DOM-TOM.

and


BRUSSEL 14h (RTBF)/ SARKOZY 25% ; ROYAL 22% ; LE PEN 21% ; BAYROU 17% ; BESSANCENOT 4,9% ; BOVÉ 2% ; DE VILLIER 1,9% ; VOYNET 1,7% ; BUFFET 1,6% ; LARGUILLER 0,9% ; NIHOUS 0,8% ; SCHIVARDI 0,4%. Résultats pour la France. Français en BELGIQUE / SARKOZY, 27,2% ; LE PEN 24,9% ; BAYROU 22, 6% ; ROYAL 20,9%.

But yeah...this are only rumors, it becomes frustrating. Can't wait for 18h !
Until then these rumors are useless.

edit:
Updated estimation out of the polls: SOFRES (compare to IFOP above)

SOFRES (15h56)

Sondage sorti des urnes

1 - Bayrou : 22,5 (21-24) 2 - Royal : 22 ,5 (20,5-2324 3 - Sarkosy : 22,5 (20-24) 4 - Le Pen : 17 (15-18) 5 - Besancenot : 5 6 - Buffet : 2,5 7 - Laguiller : 1,5 8 - Bové : 1,5 9 - Voynet : 1,5 10 - Shivardi : 1,5 11 - De Villiers : 1 12 - Nihous : 1

[CaptainFreedom]

J'espère que certains ont retenu la leçon de 2002.

[Loki77]

Updated estimation out of the polls: SOFRES (compare to IFOP above)
Royal vs Bayrou???

[Ren987]

Does Sarkozy have some Jewish blood? I have read that somewhere.
His grandmother from the maternal side is jewish sephardic from Greece. So in fact he's jewish by the Halakha even if he is catholic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Sarkozy#Family_background

[Martel]

Your figures are only for French Antilles, no ?

[Sharp]

Oh, i'm just come back from vote office.
LP get my vote.

there had a dumb guy just behind all of us (voters) , showing us his "phillipe de villers" candidate paper ... ahhh...

edit: they used a children school as vote office , and the fonctionnaires employees didnt even know how to do their job ..:roll:

[Miles Teg]

Done !

This would be a pleasure if results are tight for second row.

[Zarathustra]

http://drzz.romandie.com/

22 avril, 17h27/ Premier sondage micro tendu à la sortie des urnes:
Nicolas Sarkozy: 30%
Ségolène Royal: 25%

[Ivan le Fou]

Rumors are sedicious!

Remember the "Guignols de l'Info" about when you can vote:

IFOP: on saturday.
SORES: on monday.
IPSOS: last week.

[Sharp]

i have few previous socialist voters friends wich told me they will vote for Sarkozy today, mainly because "they didn't find themself anymore" in Royal ideas.
This include some wich voted for the socialist party for the last 20 years.

this time, if the Socialist party fail, they couldn't blame no one than themself.

[Sgt Kanderer]

i have few previous socialist voters friends wich told me they will vote for Sarkozy today, mainly because "they didn't find themself" in Royal ideas.
This include some wich voted for the socialist party for the last 20 years.

I voted for the PS for the last 15 years and this time i voted for "le mileu c'est merveilleux", 'cause i don't like Royal but i don't even think voting for the little existed dwarf !

[xav]

FRANCE - Voici les premiers chiffres articulés par des sources proches du QG de l’UMP.

PREMIERES ESTIMATIONS :

Sarkozy Entre 27 et 30% (selon sources)

Royal Entre 23% et 26% (selon sources)

Bayrou 17%

Le Pen 13%

Source : http://www.20min.ch/ro/news/monde/story/28173691





Chiffres RTBF : 30 % NS, 23 % SR, 17 % Bayrou, 13 % Le Pen.

Chiffres Romandie News : NS 26.5 %, SR 26 %, Bayrou, 16 %

So called media official numbers... but no source for the last one (nothing on RTBF website) and the link for the other source does not work...How convenient

EDIT The link works...
http://www.20min.ch/ro/news/monde/story/28173691

So is this reliable? 30% sounds like a lot for sarko

[Olybrius]

1. Nicolas Sarkozy (UMP) 26-30 %
2. Ségolène Royal (PS) 23-27 %
3. Français Bayrou (UDF) 16-20 %
4. Jean-Marie Le Pen (FN) 11-14 %

http://www.letemps.ch/

and a final turnout probably around 87 % !

[Martel]

European news websites are all exploding !

[xav]

^^ GREAT! thank you!

[Ivan le Fou]

I would have prefered Sarko - Bayrou than Sarko - Ségolène.



But well... it's not 7h yet.

[xav]

Cool, TF1 / LCI finaly opened their internet live stream (took them a while)

http://tf1.lci.fr/infos/elections-2007/0,,3434639,00-lci-direct-.html

^^

[signatory]

Cool, TF1 / LCI finaly opened their internet live stream (took them a while)

http://tf1.lci.fr/infos/elections-2007/0,,3434639,00-lci-direct-.html

^^

Thanks !

lol @ French commercials :)

[Olybrius]

18h45 sondages sortis des urnes)
1. Nicolas Sarkozy (UMP) 26-27,5 %
2. Ségolène Royal (PS) 26%
3. Français Bayrou (UDF) 19 %
4. Jean-Marie Le Pen (FN) 11-12 %


(18h50 ; chiffres de l'institut Ipsos sur la base de bulletins dépouillés)
Candidats Voix (selon LeTemps.ch)
1. Nicolas Sarkozy (UMP) 30,3 %
2. Ségolène Royal (PS) 25,8 %
3. Français Bayrou (UDF) 17,7 %
4. Jean-Marie Le Pen (FN) 10,7 %

http://www.letemps.ch/

seems Le Pen will be the loser :)

[xav]

LCI just reported 15% abstention, 85% participation...
A first in French history.

A friend tells me "ca sent la fraude si c vraiment 85% tu sais comme la deriniere fois ou les morts votaient"

"smells like fraud if it is really 85%, like last time, when dead people voted"


Anyways here comes SARKOZY
http://medias.lefigaro.fr/photos/20070412.WWW000000418_25825_3.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/frenchxavier/53015410.jpg
http://medias.lemonde.fr/mmpub/edt/ill/2007/01/09/h_4_ill_812421_sarkozy-bush.jpg
http://cawa.fr/IMG/jpg/Sarko_Juifs_1.jpg

[Ivan le Fou]

Dawn of the dead? rofl

[Olybrius]

http://www.letemps.ch/custom/actu/sarko-sego.jpg

[Sharp]

seems Le Pen will be the loser :)

le pen might but the french people will be the first looser ..

[signatory]

French Embassy SWEDEN

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/3695/valetstockholm4451baddemf6.jpg

Record breaking amount of voters - Queue 1.5h just to vote

[Zarathustra]

FRANCE - 19h05, selon les bulletins déjà dépouillés, les tout premiers résultats fiables.

PREMIERS BULLETINS DEPOUILLES (19h05)

Sarkozy 29,15%
Royal 26,2%
Bayrou 18,6%
Le Pen 10,8%
Besancenot 4,7%

Source: http://www.20min.ch/ro/news/monde/story/28173691 (http://www.20min.ch/ro/news/monde/story/28173691)

[Olybrius]

(19h00 ; chiffres de l'institut Ipsos sur la base de bulletins dépouillés

1. Nicolas Sarkozy (UMP) 29,4 %
2. Ségolène Royal (PS) 26,2 %
3. François Bayrou (UDF) 18,6 %
4. Jean-Marie Le Pen (FN) 10,8 %
5. Olivier Besancenot (LCR) 4,7 %
6. Marie-George Buffet (PC) 2,1 %
7. Philippe de Villiers (MPF) 2,5 %
8. Arlette Laguiller (LO) %
9. José Bové (Alter) 1 %
10. Dominique Voynet (Verts) 1,6 %
11. Gérard Schivardi (PT) 0,4 %
12. Frédéric Nihous (CPNT) 1,2 %

Participation: env. 86 %

http://www.letemps.ch/

[Sgt Kanderer]

le pen might but the french people will be the first looser ..

Certainly not !!

[Zarathustra]

Belle déculottée pour JMLP, 2002 marquait la fin du PC, je crois que 2007 annonce celle du FN, c'est pas la Marine qui va relever le parti.

[Martel]

(edit : already posted above)

[xav]

http://a1692.g.akamai.net/f/1692/2042/7d/schlomoh.blog.lemonde.fr/files/sarko_salut_romain_ap_4.jpg
http://www.interet-general.info/IMG/Nicolas-Sarkozy-8-2.jpg
http://www.monolivet.org/dotclear/images/sarkozy1.jpg


YEAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH FRANCE IS B A C K

[Sharp]

In a way, i prefer to see Sarkozy to the power than Royal, because he is finally particulary close of le pen about the immigration and their right in france.

it seem than the turks will have to re-start their boycott of french products if Segolene do not win and do not let them enter in Europe rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

[xav]

Conservative pro-american (WTF?) Nicolas Sarkozy and Socialist Segolene Royal appeared headed to a runoff for the French presidency, according to pollsters' projections from the Sunday vote.

[signatory]

Conservative pro-american (WTF?) Nicolas Sarkozy and Socialist Segolene Royal appeared headed to a runoff for the French presidency, according to pollsters' projections from the Sunday vote.

In the eyes of the media... anyone who is not outspokenly anti-american is of course "pro-american" p-)

[xav]

Rectification:

TF1 link (more interesting because more guests):
http://tf1.lci.fr/infos/elections-2007/multiplex/0,,3434629,00-tf1-direct-.html

LCI link (that i gave previously):
http://tf1.lci.fr/infos/elections-2007/0,,3434639,00-lci-direct-.html

enjoy

[Guerrier_Franc]

Belle déculottée pour JMLP, 2002 marquait la fin du PC, je crois que 2007 annonce celle du FN, c'est pas la Marine qui va relever le parti.


C'est Sarkozy qui lui a pris plein de voix.

[EMPEROR ATTiLA]

In a way, i prefer to see Sarkozy to the power than Royal, because he is finally particulary close of le pen about the immigration and their right in france.

it seem than the turks will have to re-start their boycott of french products if Segolene do not win and do not let them enter in Europe rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl


no mate..most of Turks will be glad...very glad...
dont worry ..
because it was also unreachable dream...
only business world , capitalists and some separitists will be sad...:)

[Sharp]

C'est Sarkozy qui lui a pris plein de voix.

Frederic Nihouss va être degouter, lui qui se faisait un point d'honneur de faire mieux que les Verts ...:cantbeli: rofl

(cela dit j'ai pas du tout aimé sa façon de faire faire ses interviews aux medias devant sa BMW sport sieges becquets et tout pour parler agriculture et environnement:-*$ )

Frederic Nihouss (a useless running for the elections, from hunt and fishing party) is angry because he was hoping to make better than the Greens but he really didn't do a better score than the greens .

[Zarathustra]

Bah ça rappelle un peu Bové faisant l'Alter de service, lui descendant d'une bonne famille, en allant casser des MacDo, avec tous ses potes a machines agricoles a 5 Millions d'Euros.

Nihouss faisait plus "présentable" que Saint Josse en 2002 (on croirait qu'ils l'avaient sortis du sketch des inconnus sur les chasseurs).

[frenchy]

Retour au classique gauche-droite.

Bientôt le "karcher" ?:roll:

[Martel]

Please keep posting in english, I don't want to see this topic locked ;)

[AROUETLJ]

Just had an interesting conversation with a disgruntled ex-Spahi monarchist, who didn't vote.

[frenchy]

Please keep posting in english, I don't want to see this topic locked ;)

Right, right. Anglo-Saxon can be interested to understand.;-)

So we have a classic right-left battle in the second round.
The most interesting is the result of Bayrou. Segolene and Sarkozy want to have his votes now.

[AROUETLJ]

Right, right. Anglo-Saxon can be interested to understand.;-)

So we have a classic right-left battle in the second round.
The most interesting is the result of Bayrou. Segolene and Sarkozy want to have his votes now.


I thought that Le Pen's speech contained a veiled hint that he might call for a Sarkozy vote on 1st May.

[Switek]

Right, right. Anglo-Saxon can be interested to understand.;-)


Thank you for appreciating the "others" as well... p-)

[roland]

one more for the over active dwarf.
I was scared like hell by Bayrou. Sound good for the second round now.
But the leftists are going to do all they can to scare the people presenting Sarko like a little fascist. that stinks but wont work.

[AROUETLJ]

one more for the over active dwarf.
I was scared like hell by Bayrou. Sound good for the second round now.
But the leftists are going to do all they can to scare the people presenting Sarko like a little fascist. that stinks but wont work.

Let's hope so. My passport hangs in the balance. Now if I'd come sans papiers, it would be another matter....

[Sharp]

Retour au classique gauche-droite.


est-ce que je me trompe si je dis que sarko souhaitait , comme bayrou, un system (comment ils appellent ça deja?) à la proportionelle?



Bientôt le "karcher" ?:roll:

faut esperer ! autrement on est plutot mal barrer.
et si sego passe , selon la gueule du pays d'ici 5 ans, peut etre que mes enfants auront l'occasion de voir du pays , en photo !!

[Zarathustra]

est-ce que je me trompe si je dis que sarko souhaitait , comme bayrou, un system (comment ils appellent ça deja?) à la proportionelle?




faut esperer ! autrement on est plutot mal barrer.
et si sego passe , selon la gueule du pays d'ici 5 ans, peut etre que mes enfants auront l'occasion de voir du pays , en photo !!

On a déjà pas mal d'exilés (contingent après 2002, se rettaper Chirac pour cinq années de plus), on a plus que Sarko pour encore nous retenir ici....

Le repport des voix de Bayrou ne sera pas la clé du scrutin, il a fait un trop bon score pour être "acheter" par UMP/PS... et trop orgeuilleux aussi.

[xav]

Let's hope so. My passport hangs in the balance. Now if I'd come sans papiers, it would be another matter....

I always thought you were french AROUETLJ...where are you from? (if you don't mind)


faut esperer ! autrement on est plutot mal barrer.
et si sego passe , selon la gueule du pays d'ici 5 ans, peut etre que mes enfants auront l'occasion de voir du pays , en photo !!
ROFL ! so true !


But please guys, keep it to Shakespeare language it is not that hard really... like mentionned above, let's not get this thread closed. Thanks

[teutateswolf-n]

Salut d'un Belge au Japon,

Je vais poser ma question a la fois en anglais et en francais, car ca me fait trop bizarre d'utiliser l'anglais pour chater avec des Francais.
(ne vous inquietez pas s'il n'y pas d'accents ni de cedilles car j'utilise un clavier japonais)

En clair, qu'est-ce-qui differencie les politiques de Defense Nationale de Sarko et Royal?

What are the differences between the defense policies of Sarko and Royal?

[Atlantic Friend]

Salut d'un Belge au Japon,

Je vais poser ma question a la fois en anglais et en francais, car ca me fait trop bizarre d'utiliser l'anglais pour chater avec des Francais.
(ne vous inquietez pas s'il n'y pas d'accents ni de cedilles car j'utilise un clavier japonais)

En clair, qu'est-ce-qui differencie les politiques de Defense Nationale de Sarko et Royal?

What are the differences between the defense policies of Sarko and Royal?

A mon humble avis, la seconde ne voit la Défense Nationale que comme un gros gâteau dans lequel elle pourra taper pour financer des programmes sociaux. Elle ne s'intérese absoulment pas à la politique étrangère, et les étrangers ne votent pas, donc pourquoi s'embêter à conserver les outils pour l'appliquer ? Voilà sa logique, j'en ai peur.

IMHO the latter only sees Defense as the cash cow she'll milk to finance welfare programs. Why bother paying for the tools for a French foreign policy when you are not interested at all in a foreign policy because foreigners don't vote ? That, I'm afraid, is her reasoning.

[Musashi]

Sound good for the second round now.
But the leftists are going to do all they can to scare the people presenting Sarko like a little fascist. that stinks but wont work.
As I see you are a supporter of Sarkozy, I am afraid you would also scared a lot of undecided people, who could vote for this great man, but would not do it, if they learn he's popular amongst retards :roll: p-) :petting::-( :-( :-(

[Russian_dude]

You should see who Segolene is popular with...

[Snoshi]

You should see who Segolene is popular with...

Yep... I pray to G-d that she will not win

[Sharp]

au moins cette tête de cul de Borloo s'est pas tromper en choisissant Sarko plutôt que Bayrou .. finalement qu'est-ce qui va changer entre la composition du gouvernement de 2002 et de 2007 ? Villepin ministre de l'environnement?
same players play again?

[roland]

As I see you are a supporter of Sarkozy, I am afraid you would also scared a lot of undecided people, who could vote for this great man, but would not do it, if they learn he's popular amongst retards :roll: p-) :petting::-( :-( :-(

Thank you for your contribution.


Salut d'un Belge au Japon,
En clair, qu'est-ce-qui differencie les politiques de Defense Nationale de Sarko et Royal?

What are the differences between the defense policies of Sarko and Royal?

Comme AF a dit.
Plus, je pense que Sarko est surtout attendu sur le front interieur et que la politique etrangère et de defense de Sarko sera plus ou moins controllée par la vieille garde Gaulliste.
Mais la politique etrangère et de defense et la politique economique sont liés parce que le principal probleme de la France qu'elle suffoque sous des frais de fonctionnements qui la paralisent.
Dans 5 ans quand les caisses serons pleines on pourra toujours le virer p-)

Translation:
Like AF said.
Plus I think that Sarko is mostly waited on the interior front and that the foreign and defense policy will be more or less checked by the Gaullist old guard.
But the foreign and defense policy and economic policy are linked since
the main problem of France is that she suffocate under non productive administration cost that paralize her.
In five years when he would have filled the state's bank account we still can fire him p-)

[Musashi]

Thank you for your contribution.
You are welcome, Monsieur Retard woot :hug:
But please take into account, my "contribution" would have never taken place if I had not seen your "contribution" (http://militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2419895&postcount=49).
Apparently not just you like posting stupid comments, but the main difference between us is, somebody must give me a really good reason to post something stupid about him p-) My response was just a reaction for your remark and I don't have anything against the French or France, trust me. I have a family in France, near Merlebach (Metz region).

I am declaring I can stop posting such comments any time if you don't post remarks like the one I mentioned.
So will you bury your Durandal or save it for Saracens? p-) Peace? Truce? The decision is yours :petting:


Like AF said.
Plus I think that Sarko is mostly waited on the interior front and that the foreign and defense policy will be more or less checked by the Gaullist old guard.
But the foreign and defense policy and economic policy are linked since
the main problem of France is that she suffocate under non productive administration cost that paralize her.
In five years when he would have filled the state's bank account we still can fire him p-)
Sarkozy is considered the most pro-American candidate amongst all. Do you think it will worsen his result in the second round?

[Atlantic Friend]

Sarkozy is considered the most pro-American candidate amongst all. Do you think it will worsen his result in the second round?

I doubt it, for two reasons.

First, the election isn't about being for or against the United States or any other country. French themes dominate the debate : eveolution of the French economy, evolution of the French welfare system, French stature on the international stage.

Secondly, Sarkozy will not emphasize American ties or sympathies during this campaign. If forced to say something about it, or if he chooses to pre-empt the issue, he'll probably say something like "I am a friend of the United States, France is a friend of the United States, and I shall speak frankly with the United States about what we agree about and what we disagree about, as friends do". That will stress out the fact he will be the voice of France, which is what is very much expected of the President.

Sarkozy is in a very good position right now. He currently is the front-runner with a 6-point headstart, which is pretty solid. It is doubtful UDF voters (18.8%) will overwhelmingly swing left - culturally, they are Center-Right. So it's time to negotiate openly with the UDF and ackowledge Bayrou as an independent-minded ally who played his hand very well. A little atonement for the UMP's past attempts to destroy the UDF in 2003 would be appropriate. I feel confident the UDF and UMP can work on a common economiic/social platform what will satisfy Conservatives and Centrists alike.

Le Pen might endorse Ségolène Royal (or threaten to do so) just as some leverage for the coming general elections, but would National Front voters (11%) follow blindly ? I doubt they would - some will, but many loathe Socialists more than they loathe Gaullist Conservatives.

De Villiers's voters (2.4%) will vote Sarkozy in their vast majority, and so will the Hunting/Fishing Party's (1.5%).

Given the fact the turnout has been so high (lessons of 2002 have been learned), there is no untapped voter motherlode to exploit for round 2. The 15% of non-voters are mostly those who could not, or would not, take part.

Ségolène Royal can add to her 25% the vote of the Green Party (1.5%), Communist Party (1.8%), but it is doubtful the extreme-left voters (6-7% combined) will vote for her, even if their leaders ask for it.

For Sarkozy and Royal, France is going to be won or lost on the Center of the political stage now. Whoever strikes a bargain with Bayrou will gain some advantage, and whoever convinces Centrist voters will win big. In a way,

As an aside note, and wishing Nicolas Sarkozy gains overwhelmingly in two weeks, Centrist leader François Bayrou can also be regarded as the winner of round 1. He is the "indispensible man" and has, for some time at last, reestablished a Centrist base of power in France. He also has gained stature for the 2012 elections, after having more than doubled his 2002 score. Under his leadership, French Centrism is no longer about seeing where people are going and pretending Centrist leaders are leading them here.

[Zarathustra]

Hugo Chavez, the Venezualan President supports Segolene... will she accepts ? She better think twice for once...

I agree with AF, the fact is, Sarkozy has stated already that France and the US were friends since hundreds of years even if we disagreed on blablabla...

On the paper, Sarko CAN'T lose. The socialists and leftists better not play the "Sarko fascist, everyone but him" argument for two weeks, 'cause they won't gain more supports from it.

Basically, IF debate between them there is, Sego is smashed. Sarkozy was a lawyer, don't forget. :)

[Musashi]

Thanks for clarification, Atlantic Friend.

Le Pen might endorse Ségolène Royal (or threaten to do so)
This part made me laugh rofl I know what you mean :)

I posted just what Polish media are bringing up.
According to them Sarkozy wants to tighten transatlantic contacts. Polish journalists noticed Sarkozy often quotes John Paul II, the Polish pope.
He is portrayed as a man with balls. Segolene Royal is also present in the Polish media, but we know very little about Bayrou. OK, I have an info in the introductory post in this topic. However it's not important now as just 2 candidates count.

Regards,
Chris

[Atlantic Friend]

Basically, IF debate between them there is, Sego is smashed.

He quashed Le Pen in a debate three years ago, so she doesn't stand much of a chance.

[Guerrier_Franc]

With Sarkozy president Turkey will not enter in Europa... :)

[Atlantic Friend]

we know very little about Bayrou. OK, I have an info in the introductory post in this topic. However it's not important now as just 2 candidates count.

A man to keep an eye on. I thought he was a dopey, gullible good-for-nothing suit when he was the Education Minister in the mid-1990s, but I have been quite impressed with him over the past few years.

When the UMP was founded with the clear intention to assimilate or terminate all other Conservative and Center-Right parties, he basically told Chirac, Sarkozy and de Villepin to f*ck off, and has lived to tell the story. Takes some balls, and, even more interestingly, some talent.

I also liked his stance towards the media, saying they were out of line when they decide, by giving or witholding press coverage, who the French voters should consider a "serious" candidate and who they should ignore. Bayrou has been largely ignored by the media in the early and middle part of the electoral campaign, and has nevertheless rallied behind him more than 7 million voters out of the 37 that actually voted. Everyone in the media is now lyrical about the UDF being the key to any future Presidency and Government.

[Vince S]

As long as Royal don't win it's ok... I'm not a french but hate her since she said she was in favor of the separation of Quebec from Canada. She should have mind her own ****ing business on that one.

[Guerrier_Franc]

As long as Royal don't win it's ok... I'm not a french but hate her since she said she was in favor of the separation of Quebec from Canada. She should have mind her own ****ing business on that one.

And she said the same thing about Corsica...:roll:

[xav]

He quashed Le Pen in a debate three years ago, so she doesn't stand much of a chance.

Is this debate available anywhere ?

[Vince S]

And she said the same thing about Corsica...:roll:

As I see she loves foreign affairs...

[Martel]

Is this debate available anywhere ?
Don't know, but that's true, Le Pen was completely wiped out by Sarkozy in this debate.

BTW did you see Segolene speech yesterday ? Never saw such a boring and catastrophic speech in politics !!

[Atlantic Friend]

Is this debate available anywhere ?

Here is an excerpt I found on Youtube :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5aBEUDU_hw

[kamaz]

question for the french posters here, are most of you voting for Sarko or Royal?

[Zarathustra]

I'm voting for Sarkozy.

[Atlantic Friend]

Sarkozy all the way, even though my sympathies ran closer to Bayrou.

[kamaz]

it looks like Bayurou is suffering from the 'dont want to waste my vote' effect. Many people agree with him but will vote for Sarko just so that Royal doesnt win. We have a very similar pattern in US, many people want to vote Independent or Libertarian but dont want to 'waste' a vote so a democrate or republican is elected.

[Martel]

I've voted and I'll vote for Sarkozy.

[Atlantic Friend]

it looks like Bayurou is suffering from the 'dont want to waste my vote' effect. Many people agree with him but will vote for Sarko just so that Royal doesnt win. We have a very similar pattern in US, many people want to vote Independent or Libertarian but dont want to 'waste' a vote so a democrate or republican is elected.

Yes, that is exactly what happened in my case. I know Royal, and I'd rather have France remain a Republic thank you very much. To make up for it I'll get my UDF membership card !

[xav]

I vote for http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=108777&page=8

:)

Thanks for the link AF

[Guerrier_Franc]

I will vote Sarkozy.

[alexz]

Sorry guys if it already brought up in this thread but what about the issue
of security? What i mean is AQ or other islamic fundamentalist trying to influance the election like they successfuly did in Spain.
Are the security forces ready? is there more visible police presense in public places and such?

[roland]

Sorry guys if it already brought up in this thread but what about the issue
of security? What i mean is AQ or other islamic fundamentalist trying to influance the election like they successfuly did in Spain.
Are the security forces ready? is there more visible police presense in public places and such?

http://www.lefigaro.fr/english/20070416.WWW000000478_france_feels_threatened_by_renewed_jihadist_activity.html

[AK-Lover]

I was slightly disappointed La Pen did not make as much progress as was talked about. Or am I misinformed about the present situation.

[Loki77]

'If Sarko wins, there'll be riots' http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1690098.ece?token=null&offset=0

[Zarathustra]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1690098.ece?token=null&offset=0

*Shaking in my boots, packing my suitcase before I get killed by global riots all around France*

Yawn...

[Merfeller]

Just a question - those who voted for Bayrou and Le Pen...how will they most likely break down? Will the Bayrou people break down 50/50? Will the Le Pen people just stay home next time or could they possibly be the deciding factor for Sarko? I am very interested in this election because, obviously, so much is riding on it, not just for France. Thanks for your opinions...

[frenchy]

I will vote Sarkozy.

So do I, even if I'd have prefered Bayrou. But I can't vote for a leftist. Too much problems from them when they take power.

[xav]

[URL]'If Sarko wins, there'll be riots'

I hope there will be! So that we can show them who is the new king in office
http://medias.lefigaro.fr/photos/20070412.WWW000000418_25825_3.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/frenchxavier/53015410.jpg
rofl


I am very interested in this election because, obviously, so much is riding on it, not just for France.
True that... PA2 AND UK's CVF are at stake...
http://www.meretmarine.com/objets/500/6328.jpg

[Snoshi]

I was slightly disappointed La Pen did not make as much progress as was talked about. Or am I misinformed about the present situation.

Le Pen is a racist and moron...

[Atlantic Friend]

Sorry guys if it already brought up in this thread but what about the issue
of security? What i mean is AQ or other islamic fundamentalist trying to influance the election like they successfuly did in Spain.
Are the security forces ready? is there more visible police presense in public places and such?

I honestly do not see any such attempt - unless you count the Taliban capturing two French NGO staffers and threateneing to behead them if France doiesn't pull out of A-stan, but that isn't particularly linked to the election process.

As for Spain, I disagree. AQ did not successfully influence the Spanish election, the way I see it. PM Aznar did. His government certainly was hoist to its own petard when they tried to pin the blame for the 3/11 attacks on the Basques, so as to discredit the Basque National Party which was allied to the Socialists in the coming elections. The fact the lie was so blatant the government had to backpedal frantaically immediately afterwards, plus the usual wear and strain associated with being in power, and the fact the Spanish people were ALREADY opposed to a Spanish presence in Iraq did the trick.

I haven't noticed particular security measures where I live, at least at voting stations, but it probably has been stepped up in big cities with troubled neighborhoods, and official buildings. I am going to Bordeaux (France's 4th or 5th biggest city I think) tomorrow, so I'll see if the Police Nationale is out in force on the street. I think the Vigipirate Plan is still enforced, so there should be Army patrols in train stations and airports.

[Atlantic Friend]

Just a question - those who voted for Bayrou and Le Pen...how will they most likely break down? Will the Bayrou people break down 50/50? Will the Le Pen people just stay home next time or could they possibly be the deciding factor for Sarko? I am very interested in this election because, obviously, so much is riding on it, not just for France. Thanks for your opinions...

A quick poll on over a thousand people gave the following results : 54% would vote for Sarkozy, and 46% for Royal. I tend to think the final numbers will show Sarkozy getting more than 54% of the Centrist vote, but I may be wrong - Royal has upset a lot of Socialist sympathizers. Where I work, it's the sincere Socialists who hoped so much from her in 2004 who really hate her.

[Atlantic Friend]

I was slightly disappointed La Pen did not make as much progress as was talked about. Or am I misinformed about the present situation.

Basically Le Pen is at a dead end. The National Front is less a party than a nebula of groups ranging from disenfranchised Conservatives, Royalists, Petainists Conservatives, and a smattering of real Fascists and Nazis.

Barring extraordinary circumstances, such groups have zero chance of ever reaching 25% of the voters. The only reason Le Pen was qualified for Round 2 in the last election was the large number of candidates on the Left, and the fact the left-leaning voters were equally dispersed. With one candidate such as Jean-Pierre Chevenement out of the race, it would have been a classic Socialist-Conservative race.

This time people have learned the lesson of 2002. The small candidates have been practically terminated, even though the voters were far more numerous to turn up at the polling stations (85% instead of 74%). And they voted for the candidates they saw as having a real chance of being elected : Sarkozy, Royal, Bayrou. Of all the candidates, only those who really had a power base remained, like Bayrou and, to a lesser extent, le Pen.

The French Communist Party, once able to command 25% of the electorate, now barely makes 1.8%. The Green Party that had blossomed at 11%, ends with a wilted 1.7%. De Villiers' "sovereignty party" ? Barely 2.4%. The three extreme-left ? Collectively, they have slipped from over 10% last time to 6-7%, and none has reached 5%. Given the fact the campaign expenses of French parties are reimbursed by the State if they reach 5% of the vote, you can guess the nightmare for all these parties' treasurers.

As for the National Front, I do think it has run its course, with no perspective of further growth or influence. The only thing they can hope now is to gain some Congressmen through either the current system or a more proportional one. If they don't, they'll remain a political party that only exists once every five years, for the Presidential race, their power base slowly eroding (or not so slowly like last Sunday).

[Lope de Aguirre]

As for Spain, I disagree. AQ did not successfully influence the Spanish election, the way I see it. PM Aznar did. His government certainly was hoist to its own petard when they tried to pin the blame for the 3/11 attacks on the Basques, so as to discredit the Basque National Party which was allied to the Socialists in the coming elections. The fact the lie was so blatant the government had to backpedal frantaically immediately afterwards, plus the usual wear and strain associated with being in power, and the fact the Spanish people were ALREADY opposed to a Spanish presence in Iraq did the trick.

then you think that if there wouldn't have been terrorist attack the electoral results would have been the same, right?

By the way, i give my support to Sarkozy, he has clearly shown his policy about ETA terrorism.

[raoul volfoni]

Given the fact the campaign expenses of French parties are reimbursed by the State if they reach 5% of the vote, you can guess the nightmare for all these parties' treasurers.
In fact I think it works like this:
- The 2 candidates who make it to the second round get 50% of their campaign expenses reimbursed by the state
- The candidates who get more than 5% of the votes are reimbursed up to 8M€
- The others get up to 800K€

Yesterday they said that the Royal campaign cost already more than 20M€

[Atlantic Friend]

then you think that if there wouldn't have been terrorist attack the electoral results would have been the same, right?

More exactly, I think Aznar's attempt at spinning the terrorist attack was more damaging for his party than the attack itself. Trying to put the blame of the Basque, when the Spanish police was very quick in pointing fingers at the real culprits, was stupid IMHO. Clinging to that story in a desperate attempt to fling mud towards the opposition was another dumb mistake, and one that backfired pretty badly for the Popular Party.

A different stance in the aftermath of the attack might have maintained the PP in power, IMHO. And even if the PP was doomed, it unwittingly dug its own grave with this gratuitous smear campaign, that is what I think.

[AROUETLJ]

I haven't noticed particular security measures where I live, at least at voting stations, but it probably has been stepped up in big cities with troubled neighborhoods, and official buildings. I am going to Bordeaux (France's 4th or 5th biggest city I think) tomorrow, so I'll see if the Police Nationale is out in force on the street. I think the Vigipirate Plan is still enforced, so there should be Army patrols in train stations and airports.

Nothing out of the ordinary in Paris. The riot story is just the usual mental masturbation by some ignorant hacks. They don't report what actually happens, but what they wish would happen.

[teutateswolf-n]

Je pense que t'as bien analyse la situation.

I think that you analyzed very well the situation.



Basically Le Pen is at a dead end. The National Front is less a party than a nebula of groups ranging from disenfranchised Conservatives, Royalists, Petainists Conservatives, and a smattering of real Fascists and Nazis.

Barring extraordinary circumstances, such groups have zero chance of ever reaching 25% of the voters. The only reason Le Pen was qualified for Round 2 in the last election was the large number of candidates on the Left, and the fact the left-leaning voters were equally dispersed. With one candidate such as Jean-Pierre Chevenement out of the race, it would have been a classic Socialist-Conservative race.

This time people have learned the lesson of 2002. The small candidates have been practically terminated, even though the voters were far more numerous to turn up at the polling stations (85% instead of 74%). And they voted for the candidates they saw as having a real chance of being elected : Sarkozy, Royal, Bayrou. Of all the candidates, only those who really had a power base remained, like Bayrou and, to a lesser extent, le Pen.

The French Communist Party, once able to command 25% of the electorate, now barely makes 1.8%. The Green Party that had blossomed at 11%, ends with a wilted 1.7%. De Villiers' "sovereignty party" ? Barely 2.4%. The three extreme-left ? Collectively, they have slipped from over 10% last time to 6-7%, and none has reached 5%. Given the fact the campaign expenses of French parties are reimbursed by the State if they reach 5% of the vote, you can guess the nightmare for all these parties' treasurers.

As for the National Front, I do think it has run its course, with no perspective of further growth or influence. The only thing they can hope now is to gain some Congressmen through either the current system or a more proportional one. If they don't, they'll remain a political party that only exists once every five years, for the Presidential race, their power base slowly eroding (or not so slowly like last Sunday).

[teutateswolf-n]

We have some ideas about the choices of the candidates concerning big topics like the second carrier or the nuke.
But, what about the conventional ground force? Will they reduce more and more the heavy units?! (an army needs heavy units too) And what about the manpower?
What about military or civil service? I think that Bayrou had in his program the proposition to introduce a civic service. Do the candidates of the 2nd round have similar propositions?

[stephane from Paris]

question for the french posters here, are most of you voting for Sarko or Royal?


Royal: supported by ultra left who hates so much France and her History.
More imigration, more money for the one who don't work, more european integration (i'm for economic Europe not for political one).

Sarkozy: a fake patriote who says what people want to hear but will do nothing excepting killing our social model, give more right to ultra capitalism (the same ultra capitalism who asked, and will, for more immigration to have low cost salaries) , will build mosquee with our money...

I'll vote but for none of these morons who lead the 2 sides who ran the country since so long. They are the 2 sides of the same piece.
I'll vote white.

[roland]

Royal: supported by ultra left who hates so much France and her History.
More imigration, more money for the one who don't work, more european integration (i'm for economic Europe not for political one).

Sarkozy: a fake patriote who says what people want to hear but will do nothing excepting killing our social model, give more right to ultra capitalism (the same ultra capitalism who asked, and will, for more immigration to have low cost salaries) , will build mosquee with our money...

I'll vote but for none of these morons who lead the 2 sides who ran the country since so long. They are the 2 sides of the same piece.
I'll vote white.

Royal is for massive regularisation and would surrender to any leftist organisation that would shout loud enough against expulsion.
Sarkozy NOT.
That's one difference nobody can deny in good faith.

[AROUETLJ]

I can understand Stéphane's viewpoint, but I don't think it's totally correct. One crucial difference (for me) is that Royal talks about les sans papiers and says absolutely nothing on those EU citizens who enter and work in France legally. Sarko does.

[ultra_mat]

you guys should move on from the immigration debate, stop focusing on it, it's a force for good, who's going to do the jobs nobody wants to do..., and people on the left or far left don't hate France and it's history, what a stupid comment, all my familly on my dad's side have been in the forces(FFL) and always voted on the left.
my favourite history teacher told me once:
'' there's always a price to pay for having an empire...'' we had empire, move on...

[stephane from Paris]

you guys should move on from the immigration debate, stop focusing on it, it's a force for good, who's going to do the jobs nobody wants to do..., and people on the left or far left don't hate France and it's history, what a stupid comment, all my familly on my dad's side have been in the forces(FFL) and always voted on the left.
my favourite history teacher told me once:
'' there's always a price to pay for having an empire...'' we had empire, move on...

the jobs nobody want? wake up and go far from big town you'll see who do the hard works.
It's big companies who asked (and still do) for massive imigration not for find hard workers but for find people who says nothing and accepts low salary. It's them who create large scale unemployement to control european working class.
The same big companies who gave money to nearly all politicians from these 2 party, and find them a job when they move from politic.
My grand dad too was communist in 30's/40's he did the Spanish war as volunteer, was wounded in 1940 in the north, but the left at this time hasn't the same value as the left now who really is shamefull of France.

I'm from a hot suburn near Paris, i spent 20years of my life as a minority in my own country so your lessons....
I respect people from everywhere but i says there's too much extra europeans immigrants now and i don't want to see balkanisation of my people.
I don't want a white France, not more a all french one, but i says that people who come must respect our rules and more OUR culture and History.

Your teacher is just another morons like most of the ones i had in my communist town.
Most of Spain was under muslims oppression for centuries so what?
Balkans were under ottoman oppression for centuries so what?
Is there someone to ask muslims to pay for that?
It's past , i deny you the right to says that we'll pay our collonies and it's a just payback !

I voted for MPF and i see that our value enter in french mind!
TOUCHE PAS A MON PEUPLE

[stonecutter]

you guys should move on from the immigration debate, stop focusing on it, it's a force for good, who's going to do the jobs nobody wants to do..

I was just in southern California (Palm Springs) on a short apprenticing trip. I talked to guys down there about Mexican labourers and migrants (the town I was staying in was 80% hispanic), and initially I thought they were a good thing, filling a labour niche that was otherwise vacant. But the Californians told me that they were also responsible for driving down labour costs so much that it was hard to compete anymore. I was told that if you're a carpenter (a skilled tradesman offering valuable services anywhere else) living in that area now, your salary could only let you afford to live in a trailer.... Not good.

[stephane from Paris]

Royal is for massive regularisation and would surrender to any leftist organisation that would shout loud enough against expulsion.
Sarkozy NOT.
That's one difference nobody can deny in good faith.


Sarkozy did nothing against the illegals in Cachan affairs!
Sarkozy is the one who surrendered against students for CPE when Villepin show far more bollocks.
Two of my friends are cops (BAC) and received order to not arrest guys in hot places since Sarkozy fears riots before elections.
...
A fake man
I heard his speach yesterday, he spoke about immigration, about the ex colons peoples, about Harkis like Le Pen could did! But what he did the 5 years he was minister? Nothing, he just want to find voters but he'll do nothing.
I heard him speaking about ultra capitalim who act only for financial interrests but what did he do?????
A fake man

[AROUETLJ]

You made some important points there. And the values held by parties such as the MPF have now entered mainstream politics. Of course Royal pretends there are no such issues, because of the PS strategy of demonising Sarko. I mean, if Sarko says that immigrants need to respect French laws (a perfectly rational thing to say), agreeing with that would be tantamount to admitting he's right, which is a big no-no in the Right vs Left debate. I sincerely hope that Sarkozy wins. At least the chap proposes such sensible stuff as obeying the law and paying for your train ticket, which became Extreme Right ideology after 1968. I hate to think what Président Royal's reaction would be next time some turnstile-jumper is approached by an RATP agent.

[roland]

you guys should move on from the immigration debate, stop focusing on it, it's a force for good, who's going to do the jobs nobody wants to do...,


that's the difference between the left and right:
The left prefer to let come non french workforce that often is backward, illiterate and religion infested and at the same time subsidize lazy parasites who probably spent 8 years of useless studies in psychiatry or sociology but who don't want to lower themselves to do manual work.
The right prefer to cut the wankers's funding and let them the choice between die of starvation or move there @ss and do something usefull of there life, be it manual work: il n'y a pas de sot metier. That would be better for our economy and better for the concerned people either.
Since the later option never was tried before I conclude that what we call "right" currently are in fact leftists or at leat let the leftist control the state and social system.

Hopefully we at last are going to try a real right policy, supposing of course that Sarkozy doesn't surrender to the commies during the unavoidable "3rd social round" (also called commie little putch), like Chirac did in the big strikes of 1995 only six month after his first election.



and people on the left or far left don't hate France and it's history, what a stupid comment,

let me sumarize for you the French history like taught to my childrens:

- Middle age = bad: crusaders, poor peasant reduced to slavery by bad lords,
- French revolution = bad: blood bath,
- Napoleon = bad: dictator,
- Industrial revolution = bad: working childrens, Zola, bad capitalists,
- Communes = good: great commie revolution,
and so on

[roland]

Sarkozy did nothing against the illegals in Cachan affairs!
Sarkozy is the one who surrendered against students for CPE when Villepin show far more bollocks.
Two of my friends are cops (BAC) and received order to not arrest guys in hot places since Sarkozy fears riots before elections.
...
A fake man
I heard his speach yesterday, he spoke about immigration, about the ex colons peoples, about Harkis like Le Pen could did! But what he did the 5 years he was minister? Nothing, he just want to find voters but he'll do nothing.
I heard him speaking about ultra capitalim who act only for financial interrests but what did he do?????
A fake man

I agree with most of what you say apart the ultra capitalist part but nevermind.
I have little illusion but I think we have to give Sarko his chance. Thing is he is a professional politician (else he wouldn't be there) and understood that we, French, are biased toward the left: our parents were leftists (may 68), our teatchers were lftists, our intellectuals were almost all leftists until very recently and our media are leftists (hell listen France Info as if it was leftist propaganda, it's laughable when you realize it is in fact).
So to have any chance of winning Sarkozy had to be very cautious. Though we can't really say he is an hypocrit since he already speak much more clearly than any other politician before. But he had to be carrefull, just look at this campaign trying to make him look like a dangerous dictator.

[stephane from Paris]

http://www.dailymotion.com/ByeByeChirac2007/video/x1qjdv_les-gauchos-le-clip/1

[Olybrius]

you guys should move on from the immigration debate, stop focusing on it, it's a force for good, who's going to do the jobs nobody wants to do..., and people on the left or far left don't hate France and it's history, what a stupid comment, all my familly on my dad's side have been in the forces(FFL) and always voted on the left.
my favourite history teacher told me once:
'' there's always a price to pay for having an empire...'' we had empire, move on...

lol it's not a thread for open minded people ;)

[roland]

lol it's not a thread for open minded people ;)

Yes it is: the opinions were rather argumented and before you spoke nobody closed his mind to other people's opinion, ironically pretending they aren't open minded enough.

This being said I think there is a lot of good thing in stephanes's video but in the end there is a general racist tone that waste it all.
One can perfectly support the end of immigration as long as all our immigrants aren't fully assimilated, as well as support the expulsion of the illegals without being racist.

[ultra_mat]

i agree with Roland, I respect other board members opinions as well.
debate is good....
ps. Roland, your daughter should have a better teacher...nothing to do with the left my friend.

[Atlantic Friend]

Nothing out of the ordinary in Paris. The riot story is just the usual mental masturbation by some ignorant hacks. They don't report what actually happens, but what they wish would happen.

Nothing at all in Bordeaux either. I haven't even seen one police uniform in the streets.

[Atlantic Friend]

I voted for MPF and i see that our value enter in french mind!
TOUCHE PAS A MON PEUPLE

Good Lord ! Has Viscount de Villiers suddenly discovered there was such as thing as a French "peuple" ? ;)

Sorry, I was too much of a Républicain, I guess, to let that one pass.

Que veut un bon Républicain, que veut un bon Républicain ?
Du fer du plomb et puis du pain, du fer du plomb et puis du pain...
Du fer pour travailler, du plomb pour se venger,
Et du pain pour ses frères, vive le son, vive le son
Et du pain pour ses frères, vive le son du canon...

More seriously the trouble with the MPF - among other small parties - is that, while they are able to criticize what has been wrongly done over the past decades, they remain unable to formulate a viable alternative politicy, with a big strong emphasis on "viable". At best they can serve as a reminder for the larger, more governmental parties, that such and such issue has to be adressed, but frankly I for one could not even imagine France being run by the Vendéen Viscount, nor by, for example, the Greens. It doesn't mean that sovereignty or protection of the environment don't have to be adressed as issues, but only that their most vocal proponents lack every tool to actually implement a viable policy on these themes.

[AK-Lover]

that's the difference between the left and right:
The left prefer to let come non french workforce that often is backward, illiterate and religion infested and at the same time subsidize lazy parasites who probably spent 8 years of useless studies in psychiatry or sociology but who don't want to lower themselves to do manual work.
The right prefer to cut the wankers's funding and let them the choice between die of starvation or move there @ss and do something usefull of there life, be it manual work: il n'y a pas de sot metier. That would be better for our economy and better for the concerned people either.
Since the later option never was tried before I conclude that what we call "right" currently are in fact leftists or at leat let the leftist control the state and social system.

Hopefully we at last are going to try a real right policy, supposing of course that Sarkozy doesn't surrender to the commies during the unavoidable "3rd social round" (also called commie little putch), like Chirac did in the big strikes of 1995 only six month after his first election.



let me sumarize for you the French history like taught to my childrens:

- Middle age = bad: crusaders, poor peasant reduced to slavery by bad lords,
- French revolution = bad: blood bath,
- Napoleon = bad: dictator,
- Industrial revolution = bad: working childrens, Zola, bad capitalists,
- Communes = good: great commie revolution,
and so on

Hahah ironic friend, I get the same feeling that in my country are "government" is pushing for same kind of thing. But thank god we are not their yet.

[xav]

About De Villiers:


Publié le 25/04 à 19:59
Villiers "invite" à voter Sarkozy

Le président du MPF avait refusé, au soir du 1e tour, d'appeler à voter pour M. Sarkozy au 2e tour.

Mais, dans un communiqué il déclare mercredi, après la conférence de François Bayrou, "avoir entendu (...) la neutralité stratégique et politicienne (...) qui sonne comme une offre de services à la candidate socialiste".

Mercredi, le président du conseil général de Vendée souligne que "malgré les différences évidentes qui existent avec le programme du président de l'UMP", il ne veut pas "faire la politique du pire" et "refuse depuis toujours les alliances électorales contre-nature". :)

That's a few more voters for Sarko

[Loki77]

Royal supports "Open Source" software....

[Musashi]

- Napoleon = bad: dictator,

Oh Sire, Napoleon is not portrayed in Polish history so bad. He introduced a new and good law system for example.

[roland]

Royal supports "Open Source" software....

That's a good point but not enough for me.
Search for efficiency and cost saving should be enough to help Free software deployment in the administration. No need for ideology. And I trust Sarko better in good management of the state than Segolene.
Anyway Segolene says a lot of thing. but saying isn't enough when you have a heavy administration to reform, with very good people but people who took bad habits because of horrible human ressources management.

roland aka die_hard_rightist_ Linux_user ;)

[xav]

TO french posters:
What would you reply to the following post:
I've always admired the French gift of style and elegance. Even in the dirty business of politics, the system has symmetry and natural justice. The President is at the peak of his powers for only the first two years; then (if his appointees are axed by the electorate) he has to cuddle up to a whole new set of erstwhile enemies. Love it! Mind you, it's a helluva lot of voting, but the Frogs don't seem to mind. Now, xav, my question is this: How strong is Sarkozy's standing likely to be with the National Assembly, considering the coalition deals that might have to be done? Would he, for instance, have the political muscle to push PA2 into existence, and would his 2yr honeymoon be enough to stave off cancellation at a later date?
Cheers,

(from another board)
Thank.

[roland]

Now, xav, my question is this: How strong is Sarkozy's standing likely to be with the National Assembly, considering the coalition deals that might have to be done? Would he, for instance, have the political muscle to push PA2 into existence, and would his 2yr honeymoon be enough to stave off cancellation at a later date?
Cheers,

(from another board)
Thank.

there will be no coalition. hopefully.

[Atlantic Friend]

TO french posters:
What would you reply to the following post:
I've always admired the French gift of style and elegance. Even in the dirty business of politics, the system has symmetry and natural justice. The President is at the peak of his powers for only the first two years; then (if his appointees are axed by the electorate) he has to cuddle up to a whole new set of erstwhile enemies. Love it! Mind you, it's a helluva lot of voting, but the Frogs don't seem to mind. Now, xav, my question is this: How strong is Sarkozy's standing likely to be with the National Assembly, considering the coalition deals that might have to be done? Would he, for instance, have the political muscle to push PA2 into existence, and would his 2yr honeymoon be enough to stave off cancellation at a later date?
Cheers,

(from another board)
Thank.

It's far too early to know if a centrrist-Conservative Coalition will be necessary, or if the UMP can have a clear majority all by itself. As for husbanding the PA2 project from drawinf board to operational commission by the French Navy, that is a job that would require two presidential mandates - far more than a honeymoon !

[stephane from Paris]

this morron said french troops in Astan aren't here for long time!
fake bolocks!

[xav]

Thanks Roland and AF.

To our members who can't read french here is Sarkozy's program on his official english website: http://www.support-sarkozy-france.com/

:) I am sure he is the only candidate who has a website in english and his program in english...

[Lazy Lob]

Just out of interest what do our French members think of this article?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/article1717452.ece


France must break free. But the time isn’ t ripe for Sarko
Matthew Parris

Leaving a meeting at The Times last spring I was approached by a youth who politely asked, in a French accent, where he might buy the weekly magazine Loot. I knew a likely newsagent, and we fell into conversation as he accompanied me. His name was Alex, he was about 20, and working as a kitchen porter near Tower Bridge. He could not find work in France. Loot (Alex had been told) had listings of accommodation to let, and he needed a room. In the end he found one; I know because we kept in touch.

He came round for a cup of coffee a few weeks later. At the time Dominique de Villepin, the French Prime Minister, was trying slightly to loosen employment protection laws, making it easier to hire and fire young people under the age of 26. The aim was to make young workers (who find work hard to get in France) more attractive to employers; but Mr de Villepin was encountering such fierce popular opposition, including from the trades unions and from students, that he was destined finally to abandon his plan.

I assumed Alex would support the thinking. He was himself a victim of youth unemployment in France; he had chosen Britain where there is much less job security; and his family were in business: he wanted to start a business himself.......................................it goes on....

[AROUETLJ]

Just out of interest what do our French members think of this article?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/article1717452.ece


Anecdotal. So I'll reply with my own anecdote. I couldn't find work in my own country, so I went to France.

[Lazy Lob]

Anecdotal. So I'll reply with my own anecdote. I couldn't find work in my own country, so I went to France.

You just read the section of the article I posted. The general thrust of the article has nothing to do with that. That's why I submitted the link as well. Anyway I did ask French members.

[Atlantic Friend]

I think the article touches some very true aspects of French society.

Take the general stance about State protection in the job market, for example. It is a largely prevalent sentiment that the job market should not be run purely by market mechanisms. Even the libéraux (a word which ironically in French means the most vocal proponents of free-market) will always, after explaining how market mechanics will work to our advantage, add they believe in some regulation just in case they don't.

Is it fear of the market, lack of self-confidence, anguish that French businesses would get steamrolled ? The way I see it, it is more a culture of top-down management that was prevalent from the very days of the French Republic - and of course before. Industrialization began in France largely because the Monarchy, and then the Republic, decided to help it grow.

You Americans did your Revolution because you felt you paid too much in taxes when compared to the freedom you were granted by the British Crown. We did ours because we felt the French Crown was not taking enough care of the country when compared to the money it collected. In your case, too much taxation - in ours, not enough management. No wonder we, as nations, tend to identify the same problems, but also to look at them from opposite perspectives.

So yes, it is emotional - as is emotional, I guess, the idea that market mechanisms hold all the answers and can be allowed to run our economies and lives freely. We are all capitalists here, in the sense not one of us, I think, can say "Communism works" with a straight face. But we can also all think of cases where Laissez-Faire capitalism has been equally bad, when the shareholders's thirst for short-term, high profit dividends has led to mismanagement and eventually whole companies sinking. Even on forums where people are staunch opponents of anything even remotely left-leaning, there is uneasiness about the outsourcing of jobs.

I guess it's the old question about the respective role of politics and economics. What is the most important one ? Which one came first ? Is it better to have a powerful economy and GNP, even if your corporations actually outsource whole sectors of your economy away, or is it better that more of your citizens have jobs, even if that means your companies make less money and a more sluggish economy ? Nowadays, the only question seems to be how we balance our act between pumping up the market and keeping the jobs in the country through one way or another.

As for general distrust of politicians, that is very much a French trait of character. Step into any bar and ask the customers sipping their coffee or beer what they think of the government, and you'll get the impression the country is ripe for another revolution. Crooks, the lot of them. Idiots, the lot of them. Useless bastards, the lot of them. They fix the level of tax applied to bar food but couldn't fix a ham and butter sandwich. Incompetent dunces, the lot of them - they're so useless you have to wonder if they don't work for a foreign government. We'd gladly charge them with "intelligence with the enemy", but that would mean accusing them of intelligence first. Shameless bunch of thieves, all of them - let's round up a firing squad or hang them by the nearest lamp post. Step out of the bar and go in a factory, in a bank office, anywehere, and you'll get more or less the same kind of comments, directed at first at one side of the political spectrum and soon at basically everybody else.

And yet, last Sunday, 85% of these disgruntled citizens, would-be revolutionaries and self-proclaimed political haters went to vote. That is France. And Italy too.

We hate our politicians, but we love to hate them, so we vote them into office again. As long as their heart beats, we feel a little more alive ourselves. And so we hurl abuse at them. Sometimes, of course, one of those shady characters kicks the bucket - didn't we say they were unreliable, to the point they die on us ? So, reluctantly at first, and then more openly, we pretend to discover they were not all that bad after all. The bar crowd will begin a few sentences with "Quand même", which believe me is the best kind of eulogy a politican can get in these parts. "Quand même, de Gaulle, quand même, Mitterrand, they were something else - they don't do politicans like him anymore". And we'll sigh in our beer because obviously the giants have left and we are stuck with this new batch of pygmies. You know them, a useless bunch of bastards, the lot of them.

[Belial]

Great post Atlantic Friend. I often go to that PMU, le Longchamp, on the Faubourg du Pont Neuf street to have a rapido, buy some newspapers, cigs and drink a beer or two. What you described is exactly the feeling of the place as soon as politics become the topic of the pilliers de zinc.

While I'm more a Café de la paix or Buck Mulligan's type of guy, I sometimes venture in PMU's as it makes for an often fun and alcoolized ethnographical dive in french working class :)

We could maybe have a drink one of these days, the Longchamp has a fine Calva and good coffee :)

-edit- To our foreign friends, PMU means Pari Mutuel Urbain, it's a business taking bets on horse races, most of those bars are simply called PMU's as they're some kind of franchise for this organisation, you can bet on horses and play some scratch tickets or quick lottery and other luck games while drinking a beer and buying cigarettes.

A single PMU place can catter with ease to the needs of roughly 12 working class drunkards at once with its alcohol, cigarettes, food and bets. :)

[Lazy Lob]

Good post AF. Do you think France will want and accept some sort of drastic change any time soon without taking to the streets? Some sort of large scale state withdrawal (not full) from the private sector?

[Atlantic Friend]

We could maybe have a drink one of these days, the Longchamp has a fine Calva and good coffee :)

Why not indeed ? I go to Paris from time to time - even though, as a proper provincial, I try to avert my gaze.


A single PMU place can catter with ease to the needs of roughly 12 working class drunkards at once with its alcohol, cigarettes, food and bets. :)

Not to mention "PMuisms", those priceless snippets of alcoholic wisdom sentenciously uttered by guys who usually mistake late Iraqi tyrant Saddam Hussein and Kash Asmussen, the Scandinavian jockey.

I mean, what shouts "PMUism" more than :

- Tell you what, the best anti-theft system these days, it's to put dog**** on your car's door handles.

Tell you what, the Dalai Lama himself could not survive one round with these guys when it coems to wisdom.

[Atlantic Friend]

Good post AF. Do you think France will want and accept some sort of drastic change any time soon without taking to the streets? Some sort of large scale state withdrawal (not full) from the private sector?

There's no telling, really, what the Nation's reaction would be.

French people takes to the street to oppose changes. French people also takes to the street to demand some others, and sometimes French people takes to the street even though it won't change anything. Not to mention the vast majority of Frenchmen who never take to the streets for any reason. If it wasn't for this last category, we would be a nation of Marathon champions.

By and large, taking to the street is just one of the tools of the labor unions here. Not because they are powerful, but quite the contrary because they are not. With less than 10% of French workforce unionized (do I see Free Marketers raise an eyebrow or two here ?), the only way they can have an influence is by putting people in the streets, just as some reminder that they still have some power. Still, the largest striked and protests France ever experience, in May of 1968, were decided AGAINST the unions, who didn't see anything coming.

My point of view is, everything would depend on what the reforms would be about and also on how they would be brought up by the reform-minded government. The "CPE protests", for example, were entirely brought up by the government's heavy-handed method, which managed to turn a very minor and generally accepted reform into some big social cause.

What would be nice, too, would be a little pedagogy here and there. Our politicians tend to think they don't have to explain anything once elected, and that basic voters would not understand anyway because they did not go to the Administration National School. They want a strong and remarkably unclear mandate to conduct business as they see fit.

They also love to make big speeches about the virtues of risk-taking and about how greater rewards await if we choose the greater challenges, but don't ask them to take the risk of organizing referendums (like de Gaulle did a lot) or to accept the challenge of debating an issue openly (like Giscard and Mitterrand used to) if they can avoid it. And of course, when us basic stupid voters take to the street or vote them out of office, they grumble about how this country is opposed to reforms and does not deserve them.

So a lot depends here on what the government does, how it will do it, and how successful (or willing) it will be to enlist the nation in its projects. if you take History as an example, you will find no example when the French citizenry refused to follow its government when said government had taken some time to make sure everybody would be onboard. And - something for our politicians to ponder - you will find many examples of the citizenry shooting down reforms, bad and good alike, everytime it had the impression the government had half-baked the whole thing behind the nation's back.

[Martel]

UMP and Sarkozy meeting right now : http://www.sarkozy.fr

[Belial]

Why not indeed ? I go to Paris from time to time - even though, as a proper provincial, I try to avert my gaze.

I was talking about Poitiers.
Rue du Faubourg du Pont-neuf, one of the most lively and colorful yet narrow and overcrowded arteries of Poitiers ;)
If you still work here, that is. Remember, I too am from the wonderful Poitou Charentes, héhé.

[roland]

Atlantic Friend for president 2012 ! woot

The LazyLob article make sens but we've just lost 10 years with Chirac and our industry can't afford to wait any more for reforms imo.
I hope it's Sarko and if it's him that he would take some time to convince the maximum of people before reforming but sometime when you have to break some fortress talk wond be enough. For example we had a referendum a few years ago about EDF (public electricity company) retirement. Exagerating a little that was: "what do you prefer: 1) a 55 years old well paid retirement or 2) a 65 years old retirement paid like sh:t". Unsurprisingly 1) got 85% of the vote. what I don't get is that they still found 15% to vote for 2). That is ridiculous.
My point is that I agree, thing must be well explained, the politics have to consider that we are less retarded than they think, but you wont avoid to hurt some interests and you wont avoid confrontation sometime. The less possible and in the best possible position to win but still.

[Palestine]

This two candidate it's very bad.. (Bayrou en Force !)

[Atlantic Friend]

I was talking about Poitiers.
Rue du Faubourg du Pont-neuf, one of the most lively and colorful yet narrow and overcrowded arteries of Poitiers ;)
If you still work here, that is. Remember, I too am from the wonderful Poitou Charentes, héhé.

Cripes, that's true, you a homeboy too ! Hell, no problem, then, the town's our oyster. I dunno about your 'hood, but the centre Ville was pretty much deserted last night. Only "le Square" seemed to have some action past eleven.

There are a few good dives Grand'Rue too, so I guess we can start planning to paint the town red ! woot

[Lazy Lob]

Cripes, that's true, you a homeboy too ! Hell, no problem, then, the town's our oyster. I dunno about your 'hood, but the centre Ville was pretty much deserted last night. Only "le Square" seemed to have some action past eleven.

There are a few good dives Grand'Rue too, so I guess we can start planning to paint the town red ! woot


I hope not. Please chose another colour.

[Atlantic Friend]

I hope not. Please chose another colour.

Weeeeeell, we'll paint the town blue, white and red then.

[Belial]

Or yellow with brown bits if we drink a bit too much Murphy's at the Buck :D
I'm in Beaulieu and the place is deserted right now. Sucks to live in a college town, all the fun leaves during the holidays.

[Atlantic Friend]

Or yellow with brown bits if we drink a bit too much Murphy's at the Buck :D
I'm in Beaulieu and the place is deserted right now. Sucks to live in a college town, all the fun leaves during the holidays.

Aaah, to be drunken meat at the Buck Mulligan's...

[Palestine]

Sarkozy Human Bomb !

ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eixGxV0PwNE (ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eixGxV0PwNE)

[Martel]

Sarkozy Human Bomb !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eixGxV0PwNE
I remember that, Sarkozy was very courageous, one more reason to vote for him.

[signatory]

:)

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21650073-2703,00.html



France's '68ers earn a Right bashing
Emma-Kate Symons, Paris
May 01, 2007

FRANCE'S May 1968 generation has received an unprecedented dressing down from an increasingly strident Nicolas Sarkozy, the presidential frontrunner, who has berated its legacy of welfare dependency, fraud, thievery, egalitarianism and "moral and intellectual relativism".
At his final Paris campaign rally in front of 20,000 screaming supporters, Mr Sarkozy declared himself the candidate of the "silent majority", tired of a "moral crisis in France not seen since the time of Joan of Arc".

"I want to turn the page on May 1968," he said of the student protests *** social revolution that rocked France almost four decades ago.

"The heirs of May '68 have imposed the idea that everything has the same worth, that there is no difference between good and evil, no difference between the true and the false, between the beautiful and the ugly and that the victim counts for less than the delinquent."

Denouncing the eradication of "values and hierarchy", Mr Sarkozy accused the Left of being the true heirs and perpetuators of the ideology of 1968.

"The word moral does not scare me," he said. "After May 1968 we could not speak about the moral any more. For the first time in decades, it has been at the heart of a (presidential) campaign."

Emboldened by his consistent lead in the polls, which show him between 3 per cent and 5 per cent ahead of Socialist candidate Segolene Royal, Mr Sarkozy repeated his notorious comments before the suburban riots of 2005, when he said he wanted to "clean out with an industrial power hose" the violent gangs from France's most troubled neighbourhoods.

The May '68ers were held responsible for all that was negative in contemporary France, from the denigration of national identity, to fundamentalism, the weakening of the school system and authority, and even the cynicism of big business delivering golden parachutes to retiring or sacked executives.

While shying away from direct attacks on Ms Royal ahead of Sunday's run-off election, Mr Sarkozy allowed Defence Minister Michele Alliot-Marie to join other Centre-Right women in linking the candidate's weaknesses with her ***.

"We cannot have a candidate who changes her ideas as often as her skirt," Ms Alliot-Marie told the rally at a Paris sports stadium.

Without naming Ms Royal, Mr Sarkozy took aim at her attempts to highlight the Left's patriotism and desire for a "just order", calling them a transparent attempt by "politicians who give lessons to others but don't apply them to themselves".

"We can't content ourselves with flying the flag from windows on the 14th of July or singing the Marseillaise instead of the Internationale," he said. "You can't say that you want order and systematically stand against the forces of order. You can't say that you are for the value of work and generalise the 35-hour (week), continue to overtax work or encourage welfare dependency, stop those who want to create wealth to invest in France."

Despite his traditional right-wing discourse, Mr Sarkozy offered a sop to the key centrist leader Francois Bayrou, whose 7million voters from round one could determine the election.

He told supporters he would consider introducing limited proportional representation in the French parliament, an initiative that would directly benefit Mr Bayrou and his new "Democrat Party" of the Centre.

Ms Royal, who is hoping for a late campaign turnaround from Wednesday's televised candidate debate, also made a new bid for Mr Bayrou's - and his supporter's - endorsement. Asked whether she would consider nominating him as prime minister, Ms Royal did not rule it out.

woot

[Lazy Lob]

:)

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21650073-2703,00.html

woot

Brings a tear to my eye...........



http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/5324/almurrayht7.jpg

[Martel]

Debate live between Royal and Sarkozy :
http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/news/world.html
(clic "play video", video take some time to start)

[signatory]

Debate live between Royal and Sarkozy :
http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/news/world.html
(clic "play video", video take some time to start)

Thanks!

I hear Royal is using Scandinavia as a good example again... someone should tell her we kicked out her ruling party comrades in Sweden, Finland and Denmark because the politics didn't work p-)

[Weasel]

Thanks!

I hear Royal is using Scandinavia as a good example again... someone should tell her we kicked out her ruling party comrades in Sweden, Finland and Denmark because the politics didn't work p-)

The politics did work. Sweden, Finland and Denmark just have the wrong population. p-)

[Chimera]

:)

So basically you support the same old same old.

Yeah socialism has done so much for Europe,especially France.

Better unemployment benefits? Instead of getting a job?

I thought that those poor,down trodden 'youths' were rioting because they cannot get a job in racist France,so how will better unemployment benefits benefit them?

Socialism has had its day in Europe,people need to extract their thumbs from their backsides and stop relying on the welfare state.

Also what is a 'healthy attitude to the middle east'?

Turning France into an Islamic state?

A white liberals wet dream maybe.

I'm sure you don't even know some policies Royal defends. She has nothing to do with socialism, we keep calling "Parti Socialiste" the french left wing party but they have nothing to do with socialism anymore. I'm talking about Royal, not the other monkeys behind her (Fabius and Co).
I voted Bayrou last month, i don't know for who i will vote for now.
Sarkozy is pretty good regarding his economic policy, but he's gonna break the social fabric. He's wayy too aggressive in his words. He could have the same policy towards immigration and order, but peacefully.

[DongFangBuBai]

I remember that, Sarkozy was very courageous, one more reason to vote for him.

Can you elaborate what happened (hostage situation with kids involved I figured) and what did he do that was courageous? Thanks.

[Martel]

Copy-Paste from an article on the web
"One of his first opportunities to shine came in May 1993, when a hostage crisis captivated all of France. Sarkozy had only been a cabinet minister for six weeks when, in a kindergarten in his city of Neuilly, a crazed computer scientist took 21 children and one teacher hostage and demanded a ransom of 100 million francs. When the man threatened to blow up the school, his threat was taken seriously and the police wanted to storm the building. But Sarkozy, who was present at the scene, took over the negotiation.

Over the course of 46 hours Sarkozy, his shirt wet with perspiration, walked into the kindergarten seven times to negotiate with the hostage-taker. He spoke with the man, calmed him down, promised him the ransom money, gradually managed to secure the freedom of all the hostages and even offered himself as a hostage. In the end, all of the children and the teacher were saved and special forces shot the hostage-taker."

[AROUETLJ]

It was quite lively at Philippe's bar. A drunken clochard in the corner kept shouting "Sarkozy, enculé!", while another drunken fellow next to me started a discussion about radical Islamic immigrants wanting to take over France.

I'll be frank: Most of what Royal said in relation to that which concerns me was either total bollocks or so vague as to be incomprehensible. Like this government loan scheme for "university students". Is she talking about undergraduates? Postgraduates? Past graduates? Graduates from French universities? Foreigners included? And the bit about granting "decent scholarships". Fine. There are three ministries which award scholarships, and the amounts, fixed by the law, are vastly different. Then there are scholarships awarded by individual institutions. Which one of these is she talking about? And may I inform both of them that some of us are living below the RMI, and yet are not RMistes.

[mas-36]

Everytime I've gone to France and overheard people talking politics, it seems that the lefties enjoy calling those who show patriotism as "fachos" (Fascists) and associate them with the extreme right of Le Pen's group. I feel that there is a desire among many French to feel patriotic and not be afraid of expressing their love of their country without having insults hurled at them by lefties.

May of '68 is over, and long gone. Cohn-Bendit has become the anachronism of that era, and perhaps someone should tell him that.

Where is Massu when you need him? ;-)

[Atlantic Friend]

Where is Massu when you need him? ;-)

Here is my favorite Massu quote : "Mort aux cons !"

[theholeinthedonut]

Here is my favorite Massu quote : "Mort aux cons !"

Isn't the french army supposed to be "La grande muette"?

[Atlantic Friend]

Isn't the french army supposed to be "La grande muette"?

It is. But it has its fait share of "grandes gueules" (big mouths). Massu is supposed to have said this to de Gaulle, IIRC when de Gaulle was elected President of the French Republic. De Gaulle's answer is said to have been "Now that is a tall order, Massu"

[Shinobi]

Is that real?


One tragicomic moment during the Sarko-Ségo debate was when Royal attacked Sarkozy on France's high crime rate by shamelessly exploiting the recent rapes of 2 off-duty policewoman in Bobigny. After laying the blame on Sarkozy's stint as Interior Minister she went on to expose her solution to the problem: if she is elected, she promised to have all off-duty policewomen escorted by... the police! Folks, you can't make this **** up. It's a French Socialist mindset sputtering away on all cylinders.

[theholeinthedonut]

It is. But it has its fait share of "grandes gueules" (big mouths). Massu is supposed to have said this to de Gaulle, IIRC when de Gaulle was elected President of the French Republic. De Gaulle's answer is said to have been "Now that is a tall order, Massu"

I quite like Massu, alltough it has to be related to my disdain for "La grande Zora",.....he saved De Gaulle's ass in 68 alltough la grande Zora was quite nasty to him after the Putsch.

[Atlantic Friend]

I quite like Massu, alltough it has to be related to my disdain for "La grande Zora",.....he saved De Gaulle's ass in 68 alltough la grande Zora was quite nasty to him after the Putsch.

I'm afraid I cannot commiserate here, as I tend to be a staunch admirer of de Gaulle.

[AROUETLJ]

Is that real?

It bloody well is. And Sarko's riposte was "And who will escort the escorts?" Then there was the barbed "Are you hurt, Mr Sarkozy?"

It was better than a rugby match. Philippe even allowed people to eat their McDonalds dinner at the bar, and brought them a napkin, for the crowning touch.

Here's a masterpiece of a video to cheer you all up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De4_NPPDMts

[xav]

I just come back from Orlando poll station...

Good news: among the "papers" i could see in the bin, 5 were ROYAL and only one was Sarkozy....

[stonecutter]

I just come back from Orlando poll station...

Good news: among the "papers" i could see in the bin, 5 were ROYAL and only one was Sarkozy....

Bah -- the truly good news is that Sarkozy will take the helm of the country. Royal still hasn't figured out that jobs can't be created simply by spending more on welfare.

[signatory]

BBC slideshow...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/07/in_pictures_french_voters_at_play/html/1.stm


:)

[Snoshi]

Please G-d dont let Royal win.

[Martel]

I've voted one hour ago, didn't want to be in the crowd like 2 weeks ago !

[Zarathustra]

I'm going to vote at lunch time.

[Zarathustra]

Done !

ddddddddddddddddd