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Kilo
04-05-2007, 05:34 AM
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Russia's Muslims

A benign growth
Apr 4th 2007 | KAZAN AND MOSCOW
From The Economist print edition


APhttp://www.economist.com/images/20070407/1407EU1.jpg


Russia's fastest-growing religious group is its Muslims. But they are not much like their counterparts in other countries
MUSLIMS in Russia—or at least the politically active among them—are rejoicing. On March 30th a human-rights case that had become a touchstone of Muslim concerns was dramatically resolved. The story concerned a Russian who had adopted Islam, prefixing his Slavic name of Anton Stepanenko with a Muslim one, Abdullah. Thriving in his adopted faith, he became an imam in the south Russian town of Pyatigorsk. But in January 2006, say friends, he was arrested on sham charges of kidnapping and theft.
Senior Muslims across Russia used their access to the pro-government press to make a public appeal to President Vladimir Putin for his release. Suddenly, just as Muslims were about to celebrate the Prophet's birthday, the imam's fortunes changed: the charges against him were reduced and he was freed. His release came just in time for this “exemplary, heroic figure for all the nation's Muslims”, as one report called him, to go to the mosque and lead his flock in Friday prayers.
The imam's travails, and ultimate release, exemplify two features of Muslim life in Russia. One is the state's pragmatic combination of authoritarianism and flexibility towards minorities. Another is the emergence within Russia of an active but ultimately loyal Muslim community. Muslims want a fair deal and growing influence to match their rising numbers.
Whatever the Stepanenko case was about, it had nothing to do with the bloody war for the independence of Chechnya, which most people outside Russia—including many Muslims—see as the biggest quarrel between the Russian state and Islam. Not that Chechnya is easy to sweep aside. For the world's Muslims, the troubled region is usually listed with Palestine, Kashmir and Bosnia as one of the places in which Islam has been under attack. The repression of the Chechens, as well as sputtering violence in the entire neighbourhood, is the biggest albatross round Mr Putin's neck in his efforts to cultivate Muslim countries.
Yet in most of Russia a quite different contest over the future of Islam is going on. All of its participants insist that they have no desire to live under a ruler other than Mr Putin. But they differ on how, and how far, to hold him to a promise he first made in Malaysia in 2003, when he declared that Russia was a Muslim power, which hoped to play a role in global Muslim affairs.
A Muslim power? It sounds bizarre. But Russia has more Muslims than any other European state (bar Turkey); and the Muslim share of the population is rising fast. The 2002 census found that Russia's Muslims numbered 14.5m, 10% of its total of 145m. In 2005 the foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, put the number of Muslims at 20m. Ravil Gaynutdin, head of Russia's Council of Muftis, talks of 23m, including Azeri and Central Asian migrants.
Moreover, the Muslim population of Russia is rising even as the country's overall population falls. Many Muslim communities long predate Russian rule. Shamil Alyautdinov, the imam of the newest and most dynamic of Moscow's four mosques, insists that the very word “minority” should not apply to a faith “which emerged on Russia's territory far earlier than Christianity did”.
Aside from the Caucasus, there are now two concentrations of Muslims in Russia. One is in Moscow, swollen by labour migration, where they may number 2m. The other is in the faith's old bastions: Bashkortostan and, above all, Tatarstan (see map), where a revival of the faith has been overseen successfully by a wily regional president, Mintimer Shaimiev. In several parts of the Caucasus, old-style compacts between local rulers and “tame” clerics have alienated young people; but in Tatarstan they still seem to work quite well.


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Tatarstan has its share of Islamists, some of whom face severe repression. Seven men sent back to Russia from Guantánamo Bay all suffered harassment or torture, says Human Rights Watch, a lobby group. Two were later convicted in dubious circumstances of blowing up a gas pipeline in Tatarstan. Especially in the early 1990s, Russia's new freedoms—to go on pilgrimage or to open mosques—imported new influences, from Saudi Arabia, Iran and Turkey. In Tatarstan much of the alleged radicalism was linked to a foreign-financed religious school, now closed. Last week six people were convicted of belonging to Hizb ut-Tahrir, a non-violent Islamist movement to restore the caliphate that is banned in Russia (as is the international Muslim Brotherhood).
But in general Islam's resurgence in Tatarstan's capital, Kazan, has been peaceful. For the first time since Ivan the Terrible conquered the place in 1552, the city's Kremlin houses a mosque, its minarets vying with nearby Orthodox Christian onion domes. Ramil Yunusov, its Saudi-trained imam, gets on fine with the local Orthodox clergy. Just 25 years ago, says Gusman Iskhakov, the mufti who heads the Muslim Spiritual Board of Tatarstan, the region had some 20 mosques. Now there are around 1,300. In Russia, says the mufti, things are better for Muslims than in many Arab countries. Muslim prayer rooms are to be found in Kazan State University, where Tolstoy and Lenin studied. Even as he grumbles about the harassment that an Islamic beard can incur, one foreign Muslim notes the small but growing number of local girls and women wearing headscarves. Tatarstan, he avers, is the last hope for Muslims in the former Soviet Union.
Rafael Khakimov, an adviser to Mr Shaimiev, uses the term “Euro-Islam” to describe the faith that has evolved in what was for long the world's northernmost Muslim outpost. Wherever he turns, Mr Shaimiev likes to present a benign image. Accompanying Mr Putin round the Middle East, the Tatar leader shows Russia's pious Muslim face, a tactic that underpins the Kremlin's Middle East diplomacy. In February the Saudis gave Mr Shaimiev an award for services to the faith. But when they are talking to west Europeans, the Tatar authorities like to present themselves as more open-minded than most other regions of Russia.
Many people in Arab countries, says Mr Shaimiev, have never lived on equal terms with other cultures, and their teaching doesn't suit the needs of the Tatars, who have. His government has opened its own religious schools and universities, to propagate its preferred form of Islam.
Among the politically active Muslims of Moscow who lobbied for Imam Stepanenko, the mood is different. For one thing, there is a row between two contestants for official favour: the cautious Mr Gaynutdin, and Talgat Tadjuddin, a feisty chief mufti who in 2003 proclaimed a jihad against America. But more significant than these two old-timers is a flashier movement based on Muslim entrepreneurs, journalists and websites such as www.islam.ru (http://www.islam.ru/). Ansar, a publishing house linked to the site, turns out Russian translations of Islamic thinkers along with catchier titles such as “Love and *** in Islam”.
Since no political force in Russia has much hope if it stands in open opposition to Mr Putin, these Muscovite Muslims tend to flex their muscles by being (even) more critical of the West than the Russian norm. Shamil Sultanov, a Muslim legislator who is close to the new movement, praises Mr Putin for “standing up to America” and its nefarious plans. Such talk meshes easily with a strand of Russian nationalism that looks to Islam as an anti-Western ally. And the easy fit between Russian-style political Islam and ordinary Slavic pride may be one reason why the Kremlin tolerates it.
Terms like “Euro-Islam”, says Rinat Mukhametov, a Muslim journalist, reflect a patronising Western Orientalism. For an up-and-coming advocate of Islam in Moscow, nothing could be worse.

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8961754

Sergei
04-05-2007, 06:08 AM
Another scary story for western public consumption. So what?

In Russian Empire, the muslims coexisted peacefully with christians for many hundred years.

Kilo
04-05-2007, 06:25 AM
Another scary story for western public consumption. So what?

In Russian Empire, the muslims coexisted peacefully with christians for many hundred years.


you didn´t even read the article, did you ? ..ehehe

the article is entitled "A benign growth"

kosse
04-05-2007, 06:30 AM
Another scary story for western public consumption. So what?

In Russian Empire, the muslims coexisted peacefully with christians for many hundred years.
You can't ignore the demographics. It seems that muslim Russians are making a lot more children than the rest of Russians and their proportion of population is growing rapidly. It will change Russia, there's no doubt about it. I'd sincerely much rather have today's Russia as a neigbour than the Islamic Caliphate in a few decades with the current development p-):|

Mamont
04-05-2007, 07:45 AM
You can't ignore the demographics. It seems that muslim Russians are making a lot more children than the rest of Russians and their proportion of population is growing rapidly. It will change Russia, there's no doubt about it. I'd sincerely much rather have today's Russia as a neigbour than the Islamic Caliphate in a few decades with the current development p-):|

So what is your proposition?

M_S
04-05-2007, 08:04 AM
The muslims are going from 0,005% of the total population to 0,006%!! And by the year 2921 they will take over Russia!! LETS KILL THEM ALL, NOW!

Kaapeli
04-05-2007, 08:11 AM
Well since majority of the muslim population live in ethnic republics/oblasts/krays they could be given independence.

Flamming_Python
04-05-2007, 08:20 AM
Well since majority of the muslim population live in ethnic republics/oblasts/krays they could be given independence.

Most people don't want it. The elites of Tatarstan wanted it during the early 90's, but got extended autonomy instead.

In any case this article is pretty stupid, as it must be realise that Muslims in Russia still have a fairly low religious consiousness, i.e. Many just don't care about their religion, just like the Orthodox Christians.

Tatars especially, are a very european people. Most likely you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a Tatar muslim and a European unless they tell you who they are.

newb
04-05-2007, 09:06 AM
one good thing commies did back in the day was to 'transform" islam and the mosques to almost another department of commi central committee. so nowaday muslims in Russia for the most part don't know sh*t about islam and never even held quran in their hands anyway, just like to call themselves muslims. hope it stays the same way.

Flamming_Python
04-05-2007, 09:54 AM
one good thing commies did back in the day was to 'transform" islam and the mosques to almost another department of commi central committee. so nowaday muslims in Russia for the most part don't know sh*t about islam and never even held quran in their hands anyway, just like to call themselves muslims. hope it stays the same way.

Yeah I hope it remains so as well. Otherwise, we could be in big trouble :|

Xaito
04-05-2007, 10:38 AM
Yeah I hope it remains so as well. Otherwise, we could be in big trouble :|

I think Russia is one of the countries that can manage the situation al long as it doesn't become too much like western countries in the future.
I'm sure when things become too much of a problem Russia will come up with a crude but effective solution.

kosse
04-05-2007, 11:01 AM
So what is your proposition?
Well, you could

- do nothing and face the disaster later
- give those areas independence when they start to demand it
- crude Russian solution as mentioned by Susumu..the methods are propably better left not voiced aloud p-)

Eokboy
04-05-2007, 11:50 AM
one good thing commies did back in the day was to 'transform" islam and the mosques to almost another department of commi central committee. so nowaday muslims in Russia for the most part don't know sh*t about islam and never even held quran in their hands anyway, just like to call themselves muslims. hope it stays the same way.
I don't see how practicing Muslims is a bad thing. I am one and I turned out just fine :)

Mamont
04-05-2007, 12:33 PM
Well, you could
- do nothing and face the disaster later
Disaster? Like what? How long is "later"?



- give those areas independence when they start to demand it
You so sure they start?



- crude Russian solution as mentioned by Susumu..the methods are propably better left not voiced aloud p-)
Enforced tolerance? Whats so hard about it?

Doublethinker
04-05-2007, 12:41 PM
Oh, well. Russian isn't that different from Europe in that respect.

Europes bends over to muslims and so does Russia.

I, for one, welcome our new muslim masters! p-)

Switek
04-05-2007, 12:50 PM
I don't see any problem...

I can imagine that in about 100 years muslim Russia will join to muslim EU or just the other way about and dream of united continent finally will come true

;)

Sergei
04-05-2007, 01:46 PM
Oh, well. Russian isn't that different from Europe in that respect.

Europes bends over to muslims and so does Russia.

I, for one, welcome our new muslim masters! p-)

I already figured that you are racist pig, so don't bother. Don't blame the religion, blame the concrete people.

Sergei
04-05-2007, 01:48 PM
I don't see any problem...

I can imagine that in about 100 years muslim Russia will join to muslim EU or just the other way about and dream of united continent finally will come true

;)

Oh- oh, another fortune teller. :) Muslims always used to have many more children than say russians or ukrainians or belorussians but they are still Russia's minority after Yarmak's cossaks conquered Siberian in god knows how many centuries ago.

Xaito
04-05-2007, 04:22 PM
I don't see any problem...

the problem is that some people (like me) think that Russia (and other non muslim countries) should keep its culture - the more of the population becomes muslim and the more influence they get the more Russia itself will change - who knows if for the better or for the worse but personally I don't want to find out.
Its not about not liking muslims its about liking Russia as it is.

Kaapeli
04-05-2007, 06:29 PM
the problem is that some people (like me) think that Russia (and other non muslim countries) should keep its culture - the more of the population becomes muslim and the more influence they get the more Russia itself will change - who knows if for the better or for the worse but personally I don't want to find out.
Its not about not liking muslims its about liking Russia as it is.

Russia has 160 different ethnic groups and indigenous peoples and just as many cultures. Many of those have been following Islam and other religions like shamanism or buddhism long before there even existed a nation called Russia.
It's kinda wierd to say that Russia should keep it's culture when it's a multicultural federation of so many cultures itself. What culture of those should it keep and what should it lose?

Xaito
04-05-2007, 06:44 PM
as long as things stay balanced its ok - but if (in this case) the muslim influence will grow too strong then there will be problems.

khukuri
04-05-2007, 09:00 PM
I already figured that you are racist pig, so don't bother. Don't blame the religion, blame the concrete people.



The muslims are going from 0,005% of the total population to 0,006%!! And by the year 2921 they will take over Russia!! LETS KILL THEM ALL, NOW!



thx guys:) ...............................

Flamming_Python
04-05-2007, 10:42 PM
thx guys:) ...............................

Hmm now you have made me feel ashamed of myself for my earlier comment :-(

In any case, it's all a bit silly talking about hypothetical problems that may or may not appear decades down the line. The situation as it is now, is that inter-religious relations are at an all time high in Russia especially when compared to many other places in the world, and the reasons for this must be figured out, so that we can also figure out how to keep it this way.

JJC
04-05-2007, 11:45 PM
As far as I know, Russian Muslims are very secular compared to Muslims let's say in Pakistan or Lebanon. I don't know how it is today though, because after the collapse of the S.U. secular Muslim countries like Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan for example have problems with radical movements that never existed before.

Desk Jockey
04-06-2007, 12:00 AM
As far as I know, Russian Muslims are very secular compared to Muslims let's say in Pakistan or Lebanon. I don't know how it is today though, because after the collapse of the S.U. secular Muslim countries like Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan for example have problems with radical movements that never existed before.

Always existed just not as prevalent. Uzbekistan it depends where you go, Tashkent is pretty cosmopolitan, Ferghana Valley or of course Andijan then you get a more radical base. Turkmneistan was pretty much controlled by Niyazov befored he died, "Turkmenbashi" 98.5 percent of the vote or somethng like that.

Central Asian Muslims were under Soviet rule for 75 years so it is a little strange at times. Like a previous poster mentioned about Russia, USSR Muslims did not really have the madrassas, overt radicalism, etc. Russofication was pretty thorough.

The Uzbeks do have a problem with the IMU, Namagani is dead but he was a figure head. It never really took Central Moscow control to quell the Muslim radicals in the republics, the locals did it for them. Same way with Karimov and his internal (KGB trained) security forces. Tough bunch.

I think the only real Russian Military presence was the 201st Motorized Rifle Division doing border security in Tajikistan. The officer cadre had a whole floor of the hotel Dushanbe.

Could never rent a room below the 5th floor because bullets had a habit of flying up from the basement bar after a bit of drinking by the troops.

Good timesp-)

Lt. KoNAne
04-06-2007, 12:13 AM
I heard by 2020, Muslims will outnumber Christians.

Doublethinker
04-06-2007, 01:33 PM
I already figured that you are racist pig,


Nah, you figured that one wrong. I'm a cultural suprematist. But thank you for caring p-)


so don't bother. Don't blame the religion, blame the concrete people.

Why would I do that, when its about cultural and religious background?

Doublethinker
04-06-2007, 01:36 PM
the problem is that some people (like me) think that Russia (and other non muslim countries) should keep its culture - the more of the population becomes muslim and the more influence they get the more Russia itself will change - who knows if for the better or for the worse but personally I don't want to find out.
Its not about not liking muslims its about liking Russia as it is.

Why can't we have it both? I, for one, don't like women wearing blacks bags, or some mullah screaming hysterically each day in the morning right in your ear.

Doublethinker
04-06-2007, 01:39 PM
Hmm now you have made me feel ashamed of myself for my earlier comment :-(

In any case, it's all a bit silly talking about hypothetical problems that may or may not appear decades down the line.


Yeah, really. Who needs planning anyway?



The situation as it is now, is that inter-religious relations are at an all time high in Russia especially when compared to many other places in the world, and the reasons for this must be figured out, so that we can also figure out how to keep it this way.

Eh? What? You should read up something on inter-religious hatred in the ranks of the Russian army. Or haven't you heard about a group of azeri taking Russians into slavery? I mean, how can one be so blind really. Just because Russian gov't does a massive cover-up, doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist.

asch
04-06-2007, 06:56 PM
you need to master the art of writing answers to different people in one post.

Sergei
04-07-2007, 02:14 AM
Nah, you figured that one wrong. I'm a cultural suprematist. But thank you for caring p-)


It is people like you who will drive Russia into a lot of sheet very very soon. Supermacist? Is it a PC synonym for "skinhead"? :)

Doublethinker
04-07-2007, 02:57 AM
you need to master the art of writing answers to different people in one post.

This martial art is beyond my abilities, Master Wu! I can't do it, I'm just not ready!

Doublethinker
04-07-2007, 03:02 AM
It is people like you who will drive Russia into a lot of sheet very very soon.


Its already there, dude.



Supermacist? Is it a PC synonym for "skinhead"? :)

If you have trouble figuring out the meaning of the word, just look it up in the dictionary, instead of demonstrating your ignorance yet again. ;)

Cultural suprematism stands for belief in supremacy of one culture compared to all others (in this case, I mean European culture), but at the same time it goes contrary to biological racism of skinheads and nazis, since anyone who adopts the supreme culture and is assimilated by it, should be treated as an equal member of the society, no matter what his color is.

Sergei
04-07-2007, 10:17 AM
Its already there, dude.



If you have trouble figuring out the meaning of the word, just look it up in the dictionary, instead of demonstrating your ignorance yet again. ;)

Cultural suprematism stands for belief in supremacy of one culture compared to all others (in this case, I mean European culture), but at the same time it goes contrary to biological racism of skinheads and nazis, since anyone who adopts the supreme culture and is assimilated by it, should be treated as an equal member of the society, no matter what his color is.

Is Edichka Limonov your hero? :)

Doublethinker
04-07-2007, 01:07 PM
Is Edichka Limonov your hero? :)

No. Does that ruin all your stereotypes and cause the system to overload? p-)

makavelli
04-07-2007, 11:20 PM
I heard by 2020, Muslims will outnumber Christians.
you mustve join the wrong crowd

Vertibird
04-08-2007, 01:28 AM
Oh, well. Russian isn't that different from Europe in that respect.

Europes bends over to muslims and so does Russia.

I, for one, welcome our new muslim masters! p-)

Let every braindead american sign under that!

soldier20
04-08-2007, 01:39 AM
the problem is that some people (like me) think that Russia (and other non muslim countries) should keep its culture - the more of the population becomes muslim and the more influence they get the more Russia itself will change - who knows if for the better or for the worse but personally I don't want to find out.
Its not about not liking muslims its about liking Russia as it is.

hey dont confuse me what you just said is the same thing you dont like muslims

Xaito
04-08-2007, 07:45 PM
hey dont confuse me what you just said is the same thing you dont like muslims

no, I don't like the idea of a muslim Russia - thats different.
You could say I don't like the muslim culture - but as long as they live by their culture and I don't have to it doesn't bother me.
I also have friends from Iran and Pakistan who happen to be muslims ;)

No although I don't like some and have seen some bad **** going on which happened because of the culture of some of them (especially one case of muslims from ingushetia who had no problem killing their own child for disobedience - it was so natural for them to do it like it is for me to go to the toilet if i have to ****), I really think saying that I don't like muslims in general is wrong.

Oggin
04-08-2007, 08:43 PM
Kazakhstan number 1 exporter of potassium.........All other countries have inferior potassium......:roll:

Kroforit
04-09-2007, 11:06 AM
It is people like you who will drive Russia into a lot of sheet very very soon. Supermacist? Is it a PC synonym for "skinhead"? :)

Supremacist.

Kroforit
04-09-2007, 11:09 AM
Its already there, dude.



If you have trouble figuring out the meaning of the word, just look it up in the dictionary, instead of demonstrating your ignorance yet again. ;)

Cultural suprematism stands for belief in supremacy of one culture compared to all others (in this case, I mean European culture), but at the same time it goes contrary to biological racism of skinheads and nazis, since anyone who adopts the supreme culture and is assimilated by it, should be treated as an equal member of the society, no matter what his color is.

Supremacism

Kroforit
04-09-2007, 11:14 AM
Its already there, dude.



If you have trouble figuring out the meaning of the word, just look it up in the dictionary, instead of demonstrating your ignorance yet again. ;)

Cultural suprematism stands for belief in supremacy of one culture compared to all others (in this case, I mean European culture), but at the same time it goes contrary to biological racism of skinheads and nazis, since anyone who adopts the supreme culture and is assimilated by it, should be treated as an equal member of the society, no matter what his color is.

It seems that Russian mslims have long been assimilated into Russian culture and are still able to practice muslim culture.
What ever you are suggesting sounds like racism and Borg assimilation -- "Resistance is futile!". Learn to live in hormony with others, Raven.

Kroforit
04-09-2007, 11:17 AM
Yeah, really. Who needs planning anyway?



Eh? What? You should read up something on inter-religious hatred in the ranks of the Russian army. Or haven't you heard about a group of azeri taking Russians into slavery? I mean, how can one be so blind really. Just because Russian gov't does a massive cover-up, doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist.


And your solution is to purge all non-Russians who haven't been assimilated, instead of uniting them, right?