New Army Uniform Doesn't Measure Up

[maple.leaf]

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,131103,00.html

Military.com | By Eric Coulson | April 05, 2007
http://images.military.com/pics/FL_uniform_040507.jpgOne of the most visible and high-impact changes adopted by the Army since Operation Iraqi Freedom began has been the fielding of the Army Combat Uniform, or ACU. The new uniform replaces the woodland camo Battle Dress Uniform and the "three color" Desert Combat Uniform.

One of the main goals of the change was to have a uniform that worked in all environments - woodland, desert, and urban - and held up to the rigors of combat duty, as well as the strictures of day-to-day work in garrison.
A great deal of time and money was spent on the development of this new uniform and the Army Program Executive Office Soldier did extensive testing with Soldiers in Iraq, Afghanistan and at home in the United States.

Considering all the testing the uniform went through, it is surprising such a mediocre product finally emerged.

The Good:
The overall layout and organization of the uniform is good, the pockets are generally more useful and accessible in field gear.

Additionally, adoption of the rough-out boot is sensible from the maintenance and appearance standpoint. Soldiers coming out of the field are not going to be immediately gigged for having unshined boots, and while an old Army tradition may have gone by the wayside, no one really misses shining boots - particularly in the field.

The Bad:
Velcro was a good idea, but the execution was simply lacking. This material is just not ready for combat. Putting anything of size or weight in the pant's cargo pocket will often cause the closure to fail if your Velcro has any wear and tear - which in Iraq, it does. Soldiers risk losing belongings and being chewed out by the nearest NCO for an unsightly appearance.

The addition of Velcro on the sleeves to attach patches was intended to keep a Soldier from spending money modifying uniforms with new patches and skill badges. But this savings has been lost in a couple of ways.
First, patches are much more likely to be lost now that they can be easily removed. And, more obviously, Velcro repair kits are beginning to appear in the exchange shops - a tacit admission the Velcro does not last. Instead of shelling out cash to put new patches on the blouse, Soldiers now have to buy new Velcro to replace the material that failed.

The uniform is also poorly constructed. In more than 10 years of active and reserve service, I never once had a uniform "malfunction." Twice in my tour in Iraq I have had the crotch on my pants rip out. Embarrassment was the least of my worries. Had I not been near the end of a patrol it would have been a serious problem if my vehicle had gone down.
And I am not alone. I've talked to many Soldiers that have had this happen. The data is anecdotal at best, but it sure appears to be a problem.

The material itself is a problem as well. The 50/50 blend of cotton and nylon does not appear to have the staying power or the protection of the old 100% cotton or the Nomex of today's flight suits. In fact, Soldiers and Marines that spend a great deal of time in vehicles in Iraq are being issued tan Nomex flight suits to protect them from the possibility of flash fires in their vehicles. The cotton/nylon blend burns very quickly and can add to the injuries sustained in a burning vehicle by melting to the Soldiers skin.

The Ugly:
The ACU in universal camouflage is just not a very attractive camouflage pattern. Admittedly that's a poor reason to choose such utilitarian clothing; especially if I was convinced that it is a highly effective pattern. But I am not.

The pixilation assists in breaking up the shape of the Soldier - particularly through night vision - but in general, it stands out against anything except a concrete wall.

The pattern also shows every last bit of dirt the Soldier's been exposed to. I never once saw my original BDUs stain like my ACUs have, and I was spending more time rolling around on the ground in my earlier days. Even though the new uniform is supposed to stand up to the rigors of daily wear and tear enough that I don't have to buy separate "field" and "garrison" uniforms, a stained ACU isn't going to work in either environment.

Here are some suggestions to improve and complete the ACU:
A new pattern -- Army PEO Soldier is using a so-called "multicam" pattern in its testing of the Land Warrior system. This is a proven all-environment camouflage. It may stand out a tad more in urban environments, but the likelihood is the Soldier has already been detected. I say just adopt this pattern.

New material -- Use Nomex or some other fire-retardant material instead of the 50/50 cotton-nylon blend. The extra cost of Nomex will be more than made up in savings for the treatment and care of burned Soldiers.
Return to sew on patches and buttons -- Velcro is simply not up to the standard needed for combat. A return to sew on patches would also be a morale booster. Soldiers want to have their skill badges sewn on like they were on the BDU and DCU.

When the ACU was first introduced, I was a big fan. Having lived and worked in the uniform for over in year in various field environments - including combat in Iraq - it is clear the goal has not yet been achieved. With a few changes, the Army can complete the process and ensure today's Soldiers have a top-quality uniform ready to take them into combat.
Eric Coulson is an Army officer commanding an Engineer Company in Iraq. He hosts the Badger 6 Blog (http://www.military.com/blog/badgersforward).

[Switek]

seems thay this article is a part of PR action preparing some changes, I hope. Well, Guy Cramer should know all details... but pssst it must be a secret... ;)

I guess digitalized MC is a winner :)

[8thidpathfinderpower]

The debate on the ACU is going to be an ongoing thing....just like the M16/M4. Look, soldiers tested and approved this uniform. It is actually pretty effective, contrary to popular opinion. It will do the job, in all terrain, but it is aknowledged to be not the greatest. But, it DOES work.

Soliders will cry, and soldiers will alwaya complain about their equipment. Thats the fact of life of being a soldier.

[jagermeister]

booo phuckin hoooo

[seraosha]

Look, soldiers tested and approved this uniform.

Link me to where the ACU was tested, either the results, when/where it was tested, or what unit/company did the testing. And not the natick tests at Polk, NTC, Benning and Irwin...the new camo was not tested along with all the other patterns.

The Army needs to suck it up and buy the licence for MARPAT, drop the E&A, and redeploy with it. And I'm not some airsofter nor an armchair commander, but a vet who has buddies serving in the new **** uniform.

[jagermeister]

i think we should go with some good old WW1 khaki!

[seraosha]

i think we should go with some good old WW1 khaki!

For Class A's, I couldn't agree more.

[jagermeister]

give us the ACU in a darker khaki color and we would be good to go.

[8thidpathfinderpower]

Link me to where the ACU was tested, either the results, when/where it was tested, or what unit/company did the testing. And not the natick tests at Polk, NTC, Benning and Irwin...the new camo was not tested along with all the other patterns.

The Army needs to suck it up and buy the licence for MARPAT, drop the E&A, and redeploy with it. And I'm not some airsofter nor an armchair commander, but a vet who has buddies serving in the new **** uniform.

Initial testing was done by Natuck. The unit testing was done by one of the Stryker birgades out of Ft. Lewis.

Go to www.peosoldier.army.mil (http://www.peosoldier.army.mil) for more info.

[Sloppy Joe2]

i swear to ****ing god if they make us wear nomex uniforms, i will **** a ****ing brick.
the one thing i absolutely love about the ACU's is they breath very well, but even in Iraq not well enough. Nomex is like an oven mit, it is hot all the time and might come in use every once and a while. it is like them saying we cant wear under armor and our fleece's anymore outside the wire, the reasoning for this is it burns. no ****ing **** fire tends to burn everything including nomex!

i would like to see the velcro pockets go, unit insignia has worked out fine with me. and ACU's are golden in urban areas over here, especially at night.

one more thing i gives a **** if my uniform stains, i am not here to be a pretty soldier! i am here to do my job and that is all i have on mind from which people could reflect!

[scrybe]

booo phuckin hoooo

If he was bitching about seems that itch or something I would agree, but when he is pointing out fundamental design flaws I think his argument is legitimate.

[SamHamam]

i swear to ****ing god if they make us wear nomex uniforms, i will **** a ****ing brick.
the one thing i absolutely love about the ACU's is they breath very well, but even in Iraq not well enough. Nomex is like an oven mit, it is hot all the time and might come in use every once and a while. it is like them saying we cant wear under armor and our fleece's anymore outside the wire, the reasoning for this is it burns. no ****ing **** fire tends to burn everything including nomex!

i would like to see the velcro pockets go, unit insignia has worked out fine with me. and ACU's are golden in urban areas over here, especially at night.

one more thing i gives a **** if my uniform stains, i am not here to be a pretty soldier! i am here to do my job and that is all i have on mind from which people could reflect!

A lot of what you say makes sense apart from the comment about fleeces and under armour. Certainly fire tends to burn everything but the issue with man-made fibres is the way the burn and melt onto the wearer, not nice.

The UK Army used to have a type of polyester mix green 'fatigue' trousers called lightweights - these were banned from wear in NI for this very reason (together with civi thermals and suchlike) . Something we seem to have forgootten as we have moved back from 100% cotton combat uniforms to a poly-cotton mix.

[Sloppy Joe2]

A lot of what you say makes sense apart from the comment about fleeces and under armour. Certainly fire tends to burn everything but the issue with man-made fibres is the way the burn and melt onto the wearer, not nice.

The UK Army used to have a type of polyester mix green 'fatigue' trousers called lightweights - these were banned from wear in NI for this very reason (together with civi thermals and suchlike) . Something we seem to have forgootten as we have moved back from 100% cotton combat uniforms to a poly-cotton mix. there are other types of wear with the same material that we are still allowed to wear, it doesnt make sense.
if i am stuck in a situation where i am burning, i am going to just shoot myself.

[angry cow]

I've never almost lit my arm on fire burning loose threads like I have since we switched to ACUs.

Is the anti-bug or anti-wrinkle treatment flammable? Holy crap! Let's just say I wouldn't have a BBQ for my plt in ACUs.

[Sloppy Joe2]

I've never almost lit my arm on fire burning loose threads like I have since we switched to ACUs.

Is the anti-bug or anti-wrinkle treatment flammable? Holy crap! Let's just say I wouldn't have a BBQ for my plt in ACUs. are you starching your uniform? if so it shows off real well with thermals. NODs to some extent as well.and yes the enemy does have that technology.
the bug-**** (permethrine i think is the name) is not flammable after the treatment has set it, before hand though dont know.

[nilz]

it is like them saying we cant wear under armor and our fleece's anymore outside the wire, the reasoning for this is it burns. no ****ing **** fire tends to burn everything including nomex!

The reason is not that it burns, everything will burn. The reason is that these fibres will melt and fuse with your skin. This won't heal. Your skin will have to be stripped from your body and reconstructed while you spent time in hospital risking nasty infections etc, etc...

[Adam Wilhelm]

The poms learned it the hard way in Falklands.

[baker company]

seems thay this article is a part of PR action preparing some changes, I hope.

Funny you should mention that, because the photos on army.mil have recently become vehemently pro-ACU. They must have got a new caption writer or something; lots of them are saying things like "The soldier's uniform helps him blend into his environment" and they're all pics of ACU in lightly wooded areas. And in the pics it's usually doing an okay job.

I don't think It'd take too much to "fix" it...keep Foliage Green as the colour for all the solid things, and tweak the other two colours. A little brown/khaki would do wonders for non-urban areas, and Foliage is grey enough to keep it working in the cities. That said, I doubt we're going to see any changes...

What's the new USMC FROG made out of, with the Crye style underarmour shirt? Here's an article, I know there's more info out there...

http://www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/sites/pmice/News/Clothing/Mar%2007/FROG%20Article%203_07.pdf

Couldn't the Army make ACUs out of whatever this mystery material is, or is it likely hot as balls as well?

[seraosha]

Initial testing was done by Natuck. The unit testing was done by one of the Stryker birgades out of Ft. Lewis.

Go to www.peosoldier.army.mil (http://www.peosoldier.army.mil) for more info.

Dude, you need to read the results and see the camo used in the nantick tests...go google it, you can still download the Powerpoint presentation, and if you can't, I'll find it and email it to you...the new army pattern is nowhere to be found. And the Lewis tests you are quoting were looking at "digital desert brush" the selected "winner" of the nantick tests.

[flanker7]

Can you provide a link to the powerpoint presentation. I curius

[maple.leaf]

Dude, you need to read the results and see the camo used in the nantick tests...go google it, you can still download the Powerpoint presentation, and if you can't, I'll find it and email it to you...the new army pattern is nowhere to be found. And the Lewis tests you are quoting were looking at "digital desert brush" the selected "winner" of the nantick tests.

That's right. The ACU/UCP combo was not part of those trials. From those trials, they selected the three colours that they thought had the most wide-spread suitability, then they created a hasty variation of the MARPAT pixilated digital pattern, using those three colours, called it "universal" and then tested the uniform style ideas among the troops. If you read the story of the development that was posted by the project leader, you'll see that the camouflage pattern never actually underwent any comprehensive, comparative testing. It was only the style of the uniform that was tested by troops at Fort Lewis - that is, do you like slanted pockets better than straight ones? what about a velcro strip here? is a mandarin collar better than a pointed one? etc.

The whole thing seems to have been rushed, and the camouflage pattern seems to have been a done deal from day one.

[trey40]

Multicam is the cat's ass

[Scrim]

I simply dont understand ACUs. Its the absolute worst sh*t Ive ever seen in my life. Both the design and the pattern.

[RGRBOX]

Interesting info foating around this thread..

I would first just like to add, that the idea of a Universal camo is Crap.. there isn't one.. or there was one, and that was OD.. we had it when there wasn't anything that would do in most environments.. anyway, MC isn't that great either.. unless, they used the present version for desert, and a greener version for forest areas.. I spoke to the folks as Crye some years ago, (Because talking to them now is impossible) and they have the ability to vary the colors.. so why not do this.. I would prefer to see a camo that works.. period.. and not the horse sh'it that's being used now.. I like th ecut of the uniform, but have only worn it for fun.. I came out of the OG 107 / BDU Army of the 80's and 90's..

I know that MC is around to stay, because companies like BHI and other that are already making the stuff, are getting ont he band wagon of the big sale.. but I'm not sold.. I wouldn't mind it if the Army would go back to a Garrison unifrom, and a field uniform.. why not.. the Government has the money to buy all kinds of BS toys to play with, why not do something with the uniforms, and kit..

Like with the M4 project.. it has been proven that the M16/M4 needs a lot of updating.. but you have the Azzhole Officer at Benning who refuses to budge on testing or doing something better.. like as if Colt is stuffing his pocket.. I read his comments in an intervioew about the HK416 and the tests done by SF elements, and how ell this weapon did.. so now because of this idiot, the SF will have the weapon of choise, but the grunts will still have to play with the M16/M4..

Anyway, thanks for leting me post my rant.. and good luck to all of you Joes, who are out there making a difference, witht he standard CRAP the US Military is making you use..

One last point, sure Joes bitches about everything.. but he's deserved the right to bitch about it.. and if your not bitching about the crap your feed, then your not serving...

RB

[SamHamam]

The poms learned it the hard way in Falklands.

The RN did, the pongos had been well aware of it for years - petrol bombs in NI were a constant reminder.

[Rosa Jonas]

Just take the best parts from the two uniform designs and create a good working piece of clothing. I've read about a new type of velcro in some science magazine, much stronger, might be good to look into.

Regarding camouflage, I mean. One doesn't save that much just having one pattern do you? They'll get worn out twice as fast AFAIK. Rework the ERDL and add/remove things based on todays science, then fractal/pixelate it. The desert should IMO be like the three color, but improved with what we know today.

TBH, I think the ABU is a better pattern for universal use and they didn't even try :)

[ABNINF]

One doesn't save that much just having one pattern do you? They'll get worn out twice as fast AFAIK.


They wear out much faster than that. I've got BDU's that are 8 years old, seen alot of field time and are still running strong. I've got 4 sets of ACU's that are nothing but rags after one deployment. We need something better.

[aj-0311]

They wear out much faster than that. I've got BDU's that are 8 years old, seen alot of field time and are still running strong. I've got 4 sets of ACU's that are nothing but rags after one deployment. We need something better.

You're absolutely right, we have soldiers that still have servicable field BDUs from the mid 90s and trash/stain the hell out of ACUs in one field op.

[Rosa Jonas]

I'm no fabric expert, but the ACUPAT has fabric that takes up more ambient colors. This absorbant fabric might not have half the durability compared to the old, with two/three camo uniform I don't think it's as needed.

Anyone tried multicam? I think it has fabric like this as well, does it wear out too?

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Just guesstimating from reading all the ACU threads, it seems that at least 75% of US servicemen don't like the ACU and would either prefer the BDU back or a better alternative.

So what are the chances that the Army will actually dump the ACU in favor of something else?

Who makes that decision actually?

By the way, ACU actually looks pretty effective in these Afghanistan pics.

[palakaboy]

Just guesstimating from reading all the ACU threads, it seems that at least 75% of US servicemen don't like the ACU and would either prefer the BDU back or a better alternative.

So what are the chances that the Army will actually dump the ACU in favor of something else?

Who makes that decision actually?

By the way, ACU actually looks pretty effective in these Afghanistan pics.


just a personal guess...

the chances of the bdu coming back are slim to none.

[maple.leaf]

By the way, ACU actually looks pretty effective in these Afghanistan pics.

yeah - 'cause they're standing amongst or against grey rocks.

[seraosha]

In the right environment, the new Army camo looks great.

You know, in Afganistan, a gravel pit, or covered in dust on the streets of Iraq. Since that's the current environment we are fighting in, it's not a bad choice...but as far as a "universal" pattern?

Just hope we don't have to fight in temperate forrest anytime soon.
And I'll email out the pp presentation when I get back to my work comp...just bored at the inlaws atm.

[Switek]

By the way, ACU actually looks pretty effective in these Afghanistan pics.

No doubt that ACU looks pretty effective in many pics... what is different than in reality

[palakaboy]

nope...

i've seen people use them in the jungle and it stands out like a diamond in a pig's anus.

they need more than one uniform, like the marines.

[trey40]

multicam works much better

[RGRBOX]

You put MC in any Green environment, and it sticks out just as bad as ARPAT..

MC isn't the answer.. unless your an airsofter...

The Army needs a real camo.. not these BS ones, like ARPAT, and MC.. anyway, MC is being used by a lot of people know, I can't see the Army ever using it.. and I mean never..

RB

[Switek]

You put MC in any Green environment, and it sticks out just as bad as ARPAT..

MC isn't the answer.. unless your an airsofter...

The Army needs a real camo.. not these BS ones, like ARPAT, and MC.. anyway, MC is being used by a lot of people know, I can't see the Army ever using it.. and I mean never..

RB


... real camos, I guess you meant, for woodland, urban and desert/arid terrains. ;)

[RGRBOX]

Camos that work...

RB

[Switek]

Camos that work...

RB

Plural makes a significant difference.

[RGRBOX]

True.. and I stand corrected if a mistake was made.. but one isn't enough.. unless we plan to live and train only in the sand box...

RB

[FutureMcDonaldsEmployee]

the army should just use the camo the marines are using

[Heazy]

I always thought if the army was to change the acu pattern to fit more temperate and wooded areas they could just replace the "tan" color in the current acu pattern and replace it with a ranger green type color. Thus, you will have a more arid pattern and greener varient which still holds greater concealment in urban/rocky terrain.

[trey40]

they could really be wearing blaze orange most of the time. lets face it, it doesnt take a ninja master to know when a battalion of regular army is roll'n up

[RGRBOX]

Trey, you ever serve in a regular Army unit??

RB

[Zero 706]

I've been issued both ACU and BDU... so we usually wear ACU's in garrison/school/whatever-you-wanna-call-it, and wear our BDU's when we're in the field for FTX/STX/other training excercises.

personally I think the rest of the Army should work this way but I'm just in ROTC-land so things work a little different.

[thurman]

We should have gone with the CRYE pattern but we were to damn cheap. Anyways the ACU is ok just as long as they do not switch the pattern in the next couple of years I just invested in eagle ciras in that pattern and not to mention the other pouches I purchased.

[trey40]

anyone know where to get a good low profile multicam carrier for SPEAR armor panels?

[jango]

This article states that the new acupat uniform stains to easily and picks up dirt from the enviroment that it is being used in. But the is what it is suppose to do so that the wearing of uniform blend into his of her suroundins better. That is it design and purpose of the ucupat camo. That was the purpose of the uniform and i think that it has done well in this area at least. But i still don't like it personelyhttp://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,131103,00.html

Military.com | By Eric Coulson | April 05, 2007
http://images.military.com/pics/FL_uniform_040507.jpgOne of the most visible and high-impact changes adopted by the Army since Operation Iraqi Freedom began has been the fielding of the Army Combat Uniform, or ACU. The new uniform replaces the woodland camo Battle Dress Uniform and the "three color" Desert Combat Uniform.

One of the main goals of the change was to have a uniform that worked in all environments - woodland, desert, and urban - and held up to the rigors of combat duty, as well as the strictures of day-to-day work in garrison.
A great deal of time and money was spent on the development of this new uniform and the Army Program Executive Office Soldier did extensive testing with Soldiers in Iraq, Afghanistan and at home in the United States.

Considering all the testing the uniform went through, it is surprising such a mediocre product finally emerged.

The Good:
The overall layout and organization of the uniform is good, the pockets are generally more useful and accessible in field gear.

Additionally, adoption of the rough-out boot is sensible from the maintenance and appearance standpoint. Soldiers coming out of the field are not going to be immediately gigged for having unshined boots, and while an old Army tradition may have gone by the wayside, no one really misses shining boots - particularly in the field.

The Bad:
Velcro was a good idea, but the execution was simply lacking. This material is just not ready for combat. Putting anything of size or weight in the pant's cargo pocket will often cause the closure to fail if your Velcro has any wear and tear - which in Iraq, it does. Soldiers risk losing belongings and being chewed out by the nearest NCO for an unsightly appearance.

The addition of Velcro on the sleeves to attach patches was intended to keep a Soldier from spending money modifying uniforms with new patches and skill badges. But this savings has been lost in a couple of ways.
First, patches are much more likely to be lost now that they can be easily removed. And, more obviously, Velcro repair kits are beginning to appear in the exchange shops - a tacit admission the Velcro does not last. Instead of shelling out cash to put new patches on the blouse, Soldiers now have to buy new Velcro to replace the material that failed.

The uniform is also poorly constructed. In more than 10 years of active and reserve service, I never once had a uniform "malfunction." Twice in my tour in Iraq I have had the crotch on my pants rip out. Embarrassment was the least of my worries. Had I not been near the end of a patrol it would have been a serious problem if my vehicle had gone down.
And I am not alone. I've talked to many Soldiers that have had this happen. The data is anecdotal at best, but it sure appears to be a problem.

The material itself is a problem as well. The 50/50 blend of cotton and nylon does not appear to have the staying power or the protection of the old 100% cotton or the Nomex of today's flight suits. In fact, Soldiers and Marines that spend a great deal of time in vehicles in Iraq are being issued tan Nomex flight suits to protect them from the possibility of flash fires in their vehicles. The cotton/nylon blend burns very quickly and can add to the injuries sustained in a burning vehicle by melting to the Soldiers skin.

The Ugly:
The ACU in universal camouflage is just not a very attractive camouflage pattern. Admittedly that's a poor reason to choose such utilitarian clothing; especially if I was convinced that it is a highly effective pattern. But I am not.

The pixilation assists in breaking up the shape of the Soldier - particularly through night vision - but in general, it stands out against anything except a concrete wall.

The pattern also shows every last bit of dirt the Soldier's been exposed to. I never once saw my original BDUs stain like my ACUs have, and I was spending more time rolling around on the ground in my earlier days. Even though the new uniform is supposed to stand up to the rigors of daily wear and tear enough that I don't have to buy separate "field" and "garrison" uniforms, a stained ACU isn't going to work in either environment.

Here are some suggestions to improve and complete the ACU:
A new pattern -- Army PEO Soldier is using a so-called "multicam" pattern in its testing of the Land Warrior system. This is a proven all-environment camouflage. It may stand out a tad more in urban environments, but the likelihood is the Soldier has already been detected. I say just adopt this pattern.

New material -- Use Nomex or some other fire-retardant material instead of the 50/50 cotton-nylon blend. The extra cost of Nomex will be more than made up in savings for the treatment and care of burned Soldiers.
Return to sew on patches and buttons -- Velcro is simply not up to the standard needed for combat. A return to sew on patches would also be a morale booster. Soldiers want to have their skill badges sewn on like they were on the BDU and DCU.

When the ACU was first introduced, I was a big fan. Having lived and worked in the uniform for over in year in various field environments - including combat in Iraq - it is clear the goal has not yet been achieved. With a few changes, the Army can complete the process and ensure today's Soldiers have a top-quality uniform ready to take them into combat.
Eric Coulson is an Army officer commanding an Engineer Company in Iraq. He hosts the Badger 6 Blog (http://www.military.com/blog/badgersforward).This article complains that the uniform stains and picks up dirt of any envirment that it is worn in. But that is what it is suppose to do. The picking up of dirt and staining help in the blending in of the wearing into the surrounding enviroment. This is a good thing and something that you want the acupat material to be doing. That was what it was designed to do.

[oregongrunt]

On the ACUs we have to wear the metal badges instead of sewn-on or velcro, because of this many soldiers choose not to wear them at all, including myself. This must have an impact on morale since we aren't wearing our CIBs, Airbornes, etc.

[RGRBOX]

Have to agree Oregon... soldier works hard for this kind of stuff, and never wears it.. but on the other hand, what does it matter who knows what you did.. you know it..

I used to never wear half of the stuff the Army gave me..

I would agree that the pin on badges look like crap though.. and these destroy the blouse with holes and crap.. I'm still wondering what idiot att eh top came up with this brillant idea..

Are you guys still wearing Class As or has that already changed over to Dress Blues.

RB

[aj-0311]

It's still class "A"s until the end of the decade. I think it will be issued in 2009 for basic trainees.

[RGRBOX]

Holy ****.. another idiot idea from the US Army.. I guess this means no more Jump Boots, and Berets..

There's some Leg Tanker at the top who really hates Hooah Units..
RB

[maple.leaf]

This article complains that the uniform stains and picks up dirt of any envirment that it is worn in. But that is what it is suppose to do. The picking up of dirt and staining help in the blending in of the wearing into the surrounding enviroment. This is a good thing and something that you want the acupat material to be doing. That was what it was designed to do.

Bull****. What this guy, a combat arms Captain by the way - not some REMF, is saying is that it stains PERMANENTLY; thereby ruining the uniform for garrison wear. Don't forget, this is supposed to be a uniform for both field and garrison wear.

Besides, the effectiveness of camouflage uniforms can actually lessened to a certain extent if they pick up lots of grime and stains. It's plain OG uniforms that work better in the field if they pick up grit and grime of the surrounding environment.

[Switek]

...The picking up of dirt and staining help in the blending in of the wearing into the surrounding enviroment. ...


This is only advantage I can see in this camo...

[Mablod]

the bug-**** (permethrine i think is the name) is not flammable after the treatment has set it, before hand though dont know.

Ain't that **** toxic? I think the Norwegian army stopped using it because of unknown sideeffects...

[aj-0311]

This is only advantage I can see in this camo...

Quoted for truth.

[the_recruit]

hey, having pieces of the enviorment cant hurt, it'll help you if anything, I wouldnt mind my ACU's getting nice n muddy, you can't get chewed out for surviving combat can you?

[jango]

This is only advantage I can see in this camo...That is the whole purpose of the acupat camo design.

[trey40]

hey, having pieces of the enviorment cant hurt, it'll help you if anything, I wouldnt mind my ACU's getting nice n muddy, you can't get chewed out for surviving combat can you?

no, but you can get sent back to iraq...

[jango]

Bull****. What this guy, a combat arms Captain by the way - not some REMF, is saying is that it stains PERMANENTLY; thereby ruining the uniform for garrison wear. Don't forget, this is supposed to be a uniform for both field and garrison wear.

Besides, the effectiveness of camouflage uniforms can actually lessened to a certain extent if they pick up lots of grime and stains. It's plain OG uniforms that work better in the field if they pick up grit and grime of the surrounding environment.so you now see that my statement is correct becouse there are those who agree with this point. Acupat could be seen as a blank canvas and the enviroment of operations is the paint the blend it in.

[oregongrunt]

Have to agree Oregon... soldier works hard for this kind of stuff, and never wears it.. but on the other hand, what does it matter who knows what you did.. you know it..

I used to never wear half of the stuff the Army gave me..

I would agree that the pin on badges look like crap though.. and these destroy the blouse with holes and crap.. I'm still wondering what idiot att eh top came up with this brillant idea..

Are you guys still wearing Class As or has that already changed over to Dress Blues.

RB
That's a big part of it, we earned them but don't usually wear them. I don't think wearing them matters much either way to infantrymen, but barracks-type soldiers must freak out about it.

[seraosha]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/dailypix/militarypix/fresh/more/more/even%20more/more/will%20it%20ever%20end/more/070220-N-6901L-112.jpg

This pretty much sums up everything to be said about the different cammo options available.

[RGRBOX]

Exacly.. none of them are perfect..

RB

[maple.leaf]

Exacly.. none of them are perfect..

RB

True. But one of them is much worse than the others.... p-)

[Rosa Jonas]

Yes, the ERDL is awfull. :)

[maple.leaf]

Yes, the ERDL is awfull. :)

There is no ERDL in that photo.

[Rosa Jonas]

The mexican dudes in the back is wearing woodland ERDL.

[WARPIG]

I mentioned before that there is another opinion that the ACU is a success. There is still much to be improved, but soldiers from garrison, training environements, and combat that I've had a pointed table discussion with about he uniform all unanimously agreed that the ACU was a better uniform than the BDU. Since the source article is an OPED by one individual, it's definately not the tell all end all verdict on the ACU. But, I don't think any new uniform change was met with overwhelming acceptance. I am not a big fan of the ACU myself.. but I can't deny the improvements. Maybe the experimental program with the OBJ Warrior using the Crye systems kit will turn out. I hope so. But, I can already hear the complaints.

[Sabre]

I've always said it looked shyte. Simply changing the 'grey' in ACU to OG would result in a digital pattern that would mimick the old german WW2 'Feld Grau' uniform. I'm sure it would blend in well in urban and rural terrain, if the OG shade was right then it would blend into the desert well too, especially after a short period of wear.

But, defence procurement is a funny old business, isn't it?

[RGRBOX]

The mexican dudes in the back is wearing woodland ERDL.

He's wearing Woodland BDU.. ERDL was a Camo during and a bit after Vietnam.. not used anymore.. and that (Mexican) Guy you see is a US Army soldier...

Note: Name Tab..

Merci,

RB

PIG you right. it's abetter functioning unifrom fromt he BDU.. and yes a lot needs to be done witht he camo.. I just hope they figure it out before we see ourselves in another Jungle war...

[CPLHUNTER]

Well this is great news...I can see myself in Iraq now, rolling the dirt to get my camo up to speed.

In regards to durability, I have a pair of issue MARPAT cammies that have held up quite well to my abuse, with the exception of the pocket falling of the blouse. I don't know how well the ACU would have done.

So no matter what the uniform is, it's probably not going to be perfect for every AO.

[RGRBOX]

agreed...

RB

[Rosa Jonas]

He's wearing Woodland BDU.. ERDL was a Camo during and a bit after Vietnam.. not used anymore.. and that (Mexican) Guy you see is a US Army soldier...

Note: Name Tab..

Merci,

RB

PIG you right. it's abetter functioning unifrom fromt he BDU.. and yes a lot needs to be done witht he camo.. I just hope they figure it out before we see ourselves in another Jungle war...


Yeah, yeah, I just call all the patterns based on ERDL, erdl. It's mostly the same pattern, lookalikes, scaled up or not. Digital camo covers more patterns :P

[maple.leaf]

Yeah, yeah, I just call all the patterns based on ERDL, erdl.

You can call it whatever you like - but that don't make it right. ;-)

[pascalywood]

give us the ACU in a darker khaki color and we would be good to go.

i think its called CADPAT p-)

[RGRBOX]

Very True...



Originally developed by the U.S. Army Engineer Research and Development Laboratory (abbrev. ERDL) in 1948, this camouflage pattern was used by U.S. Armed Forces in Vietnam. It was issued to U.S. Army special units, from February 1967, and to all U.S. Marines, from the winter of 1968–69.
The ERDL camouflage pattern is a four-colour design, comprising large brown and medium green swathes, and smaller black 'branches', on a light-coloured background. Also known as 'highland' ERDL camouflage, this so-called 'brown' pattern has a light brown background colour, which was presumably intended for use in mountainous and arid terrains. Another version — the 'lime' or 'lowland' pattern — has a green background, and was probably intended for use in forest environments. However, the American quartermasters did not seem to distinguish between the two version; they even had the same stock number.



Also known as 'leaf pattern', examples of both 'lowlands' and 'highlands' ERDL camouflage were shipped to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, where they inspired the tritsvetnaya kamuflirovannaya odezhda (abbrev. TTsKO) family of camouflage uniforms.



In the United States, too, the original ERDL pattern continued to evolve. Its most recent evolution was the U.S. woodland camouflage pattern, which was introduced, in 1981, with the new Battle Dress Uniforms (abbrev. BDU).

Info from http://www.kamouflage.net

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

In the right environment, the new Army camo looks great.

You know, in Afganistan, a gravel pit, or covered in dust on the streets of Iraq. Since that's the current environment we are fighting in, it's not a bad choice...but as far as a "universal" pattern?

Just hope we don't have to fight in temperate forrest anytime soon.

Depends, in the USA temperate deciduous forests the tree trunks are all gray and you have faded brown leaves on the forest floor. This is especialy true in fall and winter when there are no leaves on the trees.

I don't know what colors are dominant in other forests. I can't imagine ACU being very effective in a tropical setting.

[ABNINF]

Megaraptor;2427012']Depends, in the USA temperate deciduous forests the tree trunks are all gray and you have faded brown leaves on the forest floor. This is especialy true in fall and winter when there are no leaves on the trees.

I don't know what colors are dominant in other forests. I can't imagine ACU being very effective in a tropical setting.

I've worked with the ACU's in the woodline, and they're sh*t for camo. They don't work very well at all in ANY set of woods. They just don't, unless those woods have a gravel parking lot

[Spinal Tap 84]

are you starching your uniform? if so it shows off real well with thermals. NODs to some extent as well.and yes the enemy does have that technology.
the bug-**** (permethrine i think is the name) is not flammable after the treatment has set it, before hand though dont know.

Ain't that **** toxic? I think the Norwegian army stopped using it because of unknown sideeffects...
I remember a buddy of mine who served in the Army said that he would refuse to treat his uniform with permethrin (though I did not think that he would have that choice). I did a VERY quick search and according to this link http://www.safe2use.com/poisons-pesticides/pesticides/permethrin/cox-report/cox.htm, the stuff is pretty dangerous. I cannot vouch for the credibility of the website though.

[Rosa Jonas]

I'm glad I didn't go through with my forum april fools here tbh, I was gonna make fake camo and say it was the new us army pattern for funs. Changed my mind cause people seemed really upset about the ACU and it was quite a serious matter.

this was something of what I had in mind, just made this quick now though :P

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/1672/aprilcz9.jpg

I decided not to do it so don't flame me :/

[jagermeister]

honestly ACUs in a solid dark khaki color and i would be 100% happy. Right now I dont think there that bad i mean hell after your sweaty and dirty, coverd in dust it all looks the same.

[scrybe]

I'm glad I didn't go through with my forum april fools here tbh, I was gonna make fake camo and say it was the new us army pattern for funs. Changed my mind cause people seemed really upset about the ACU and it was quite a serious matter.

this was something of what I had in mind, just made this quick now though :P

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/1672/aprilcz9.jpg

I decided not to do it so don't flame me :/

Alright I'm spent, who's next:

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/2730/digiwoodlandlj8.jpg

[StukaJr]

Alright I'm spent, who's next:

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/2730/digiwoodlandlj8.jpg

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/30/acurx2.jpg

[GoSka37]

Alright I'm spent, who's next:

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/2730/digiwoodlandlj8.jpg

"This is what we call 'L.S.D.' Back in the states! Have some!"

Honestly though... what is that he's got?

[jagermeister]

gum................

[Switek]

Field Review: New ACU Needs Work
Posted 10-Apr-2007 08:22
Related stories: Field Reports, Soldier's Gear
Also on this day: 10-Apr-2007 »
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/GEAR_US_Army_Combat_Uniform_w_Descriptions.gif
The New ACU: Changes


"When the ACU was first introduced, I was a big fan. Having lived and worked in the uniform for over in year in various field environments - including combat in Iraq - it is clear the goal has not yet been achieved. With a few changes, the Army can complete the process and ensure today's Soldiers have a top-quality uniform ready to take them into combat."
-- Eric Coulson, US Army officer, Iraq

"USA Contracts for New Army Combat Uniforms in ACUPAT Camo" discussed the new features of the US Army's combat uniform, and chronicles the contracts issued. In "New Army Uniform Doesn't Measure Up," Coulson's review identifies a number of weak points (velcro, durability, propensity to hold dirt, fire protection, camo pattern), and suggests a number of key modifications required, including:

A new pattern - like the "multicam" pattern being tested for Land Warrior.
New material - Use Nomex or some other fire-retardant material instead of the 50/50 cotton-nylon blend.
Return to sew on patches and buttons.


source (http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2007/04/field-review-new-acu-needs-work/index.php)

____________________________________________________________________

[Sloppy Joe2]

Bull****. What this guy, a combat arms Captain by the way - not some REMF, is saying is that it stains PERMANENTLY; thereby ruining the uniform for garrison wear. Don't forget, this is supposed to be a uniform for both field and garrison wear.

Besides, the effectiveness of camouflage uniforms can actually lessened to a certain extent if they pick up lots of grime and stains. It's plain OG uniforms that work better in the field if they pick up grit and grime of the surrounding environment.listen **** head, this guy in the article isnt the only combat arms soldier with an opinion so dont hold his opinion up in the clouds! as a combat arms soldier i could give a **** about how i look in garrison, what i care about is its ability to allow me to do my job. it has done pretty well so far and with the 6 month replacement plan, i can switch out the ones that are worn to ****.



Ain't that **** toxic? I think the Norwegian army stopped using it because of unknown sideeffects... well when i went through field sanitation class, they mentioned nothing of it, but i dought the Army would use it if it could risk the health of its soldiers.

BTW toxic or not, you want **** like that in Iraq! the amount of bugs and flys here is crazy!

[maple.leaf]

11B2P, 2 Bn. 504th P.I.R, 82nd Abn. Div., US Army 1982-1986.

[RGRBOX]

11B2P, 2 Bn. 504th P.I.R, 82nd Abn. Div., US Army 1982-1986.

Don't you love it when that happenes..

Audie, I will give you this, and that is your out there in Iraq and doing your job.. but please be careful of who your smacking off to.. you guys get these chips on your shoulders, and start thinking that you know everything.. sure it's fine that you have an opinion, and glade to see you like the ACUs.. but once you've spent a few years in the uniform, and seen how it does what it's been made to do, and on top of that, you yourself, have gotten some of the liquid stuff out from behind your ears then chew some azz.. but until then, let opinions be just that, and you know what opinions are like..

Anyway, Audie, doing the great work that you and your fellow soldiers are doing, and remember that your experince isn't the only experince..

ure I'm a hasbeen, and I will be the first to admit that.. but I do have a bit of experence with this stuff.

Maple, I forgot you were with 2/504th PIR.. I was with the 2/505th PIR..

A long time ago too.

RB

[James]

honestly ACUs in a solid dark khaki color and i would be 100% happy. Right now I dont think there that bad i mean hell after your sweaty and dirty, coverd in dust it all looks the same.

TruSpec makes them and sells them thru Brigade Quartermaster. Propper also has a variation.

[RGRBOX]

Propper is making a ACU Pattern unifrom in different camos now..

Even MARPAT.

RB

[Rosa Jonas]

I'm wondering, if getting dirt on your uniform is part of the plan, acu in woodlands wont work very well. In the arid places dirt mostly is what the nature consist of regarding colors, in real forests the dirt you get on clothes is brown (in some forest not even visible as in below leaves etc)

It'll be a very light gray/blue with dark brown splotches.




but I say, enough bashing of the pattern really :)

[maple.leaf]

Don't you love it when that happenes..

Audie, I will give you this, and that is your out there in Iraq and doing your job.. but please be careful of who your smacking off to.. you guys get these chips on your shoulders, and start thinking that you know everything.. sure it's fine that you have an opinion, and glade to see you like the ACUs.. but once you've spent a few years in the uniform, and seen how it does what it's been made to do, and on top of that, you yourself, have gotten some of the liquid stuff out from behind your ears then chew some azz.. but until then, let opinions be just that, and you know what opinions are like..

Anyway, Audie, doing the great work that you and your fellow soldiers are doing, and remember that your experince isn't the only experince..

ure I'm a hasbeen, and I will be the first to admit that.. but I do have a bit of experence with this stuff.

Maple, I forgot you were with 2/504th PIR.. I was with the 2/505th PIR..

A long time ago too.

RB

Well said bud.

By the way, the TruSpec T.R.U. (basically an ACU style uniform) is available in Tan/Khaki, O.D., Black, Navy and even Multicam now. ;-)

Nothin' wrong with the ACU (i.e., the uniform) really, it's just the "universal camouflage pattern" that's crap.

[Sloppy Joe2]

Don't you love it when that happenes..

Audie, I will give you this, and that is your out there in Iraq and doing your job.. but please be careful of who your smacking off to.. you guys get these chips on your shoulders, and start thinking that you know everything.. sure it's fine that you have an opinion, and glade to see you like the ACUs.. but once you've spent a few years in the uniform, and seen how it does what it's been made to do, and on top of that, you yourself, have gotten some of the liquid stuff out from behind your ears then chew some azz.. but until then, let opinions be just that, and you know what opinions are like..

Anyway, Audie, doing the great work that you and your fellow soldiers are doing, and remember that your experince isn't the only experince..

ure I'm a hasbeen, and I will be the first to admit that.. but I do have a bit of experence with this stuff.

Maple, I forgot you were with 2/504th PIR.. I was with the 2/505th PIR..

A long time ago too.

RByeah, yesterday was a bad day for me, maple i apoligize for freaking out. :)

[seraosha]

19D, 1/2 ACR, 82nd Abn. Div., US Army 1994-1997.

And it's ok to freakout sometimes, stay safe man.

[RGRBOX]

Indeed Audie.. you have more of a right then most.. you keep your knees and feet together young man.. we want to keep hearing from your Cav Mug...

RB

[maple.leaf]

yeah, yesterday was a bad day for me, maple i apoligize for freaking out. :)

No problem. Keep your head down and your guard up.

[Kitten Master]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25107&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1175974091http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25106&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1175974025

well look at these pictures, i think ACU is effective, think about it. All woodland enviroments have dirt in them. and here is proof that it works!

[maple.leaf]

Those pics have been posted a few times before in order to "prove" the effectiveness of UCP.

As usual, as long as you stand on gravel or in front of grey rocks it looks great....

[Kitten Master]

hmm, i guess so.
but considering the task that the US army in contrast to the marines, the camo that the US army has encorporated suits their job.

the time of the army ranging the battle feild is pretty much dead. it more about raiding buldings and hide outs and most the eliminating the enemy jobs are given to the tanks, helicopers, air support and missile.

Take alot at the 1990 Gulf war. the main task of the troops on the ground is to raid small complex and secure main positions. Where as the pior bombing by technology has eliminated the enemys main defenses and attack forces. <Jarhead>

in the case for the marines, since their are a first into battle unit of the Unites states armed forces, they task requires them to be concealed as they do special missions. <movie quote: tears of the sun>

anyone want to object?

[Sabre]

anyone want to object?

Your honour, I object.

[maple.leaf]

You're talking out of your 4th point of contact KittyLitter.

[Hydro]

hmm, i guess so.
but considering the task that the US army in contrast to the marines, the camo that the US army has encorporated suits their job.

the time of the army ranging the battle feild is pretty much dead. it more about raiding buldings and hide outs and most the eliminating the enemy jobs are given to the tanks, helicopers, air support and missile.

Take alot at the 1990 Gulf war. the main task of the troops on the ground is to raid small complex and secure main positions. Where as the pior bombing by technology has eliminated the enemys main defenses and attack forces. <Jarhead>

in the case for the marines, since their are a first into battle unit of the Unites states armed forces, they task requires them to be concealed as they do special missions. <movie quote: tears of the sun>

anyone want to object?




Sorry, are you citing movies (and not very good ones at that) as support for your (suspect) thinking?


I can see the words, but can hear your arsehole puckering as they exit it.

[seraosha]

hmm, i guess so.
but considering the task that the US army in contrast to the marines, the camo that the US army has encorporated suits their job.

the time of the army ranging the battle feild is pretty much dead. it more about raiding buldings and hide outs and most the eliminating the enemy jobs are given to the tanks, helicopers, air support and missile.

Take alot at the 1990 Gulf war. the main task of the troops on the ground is to raid small complex and secure main positions. Where as the pior bombing by technology has eliminated the enemys main defenses and attack forces. <Jarhead>

in the case for the marines, since their are a first into battle unit of the Unites states armed forces, they task requires them to be concealed as they do special missions. <movie quote: tears of the sun>

anyone want to object?

You play lots of BF2, don't you?
Welcome to the boards, maybe you ought to do a little more info seeking before posting on topics you are unsure of, or have no clue about.
p-)

[maple.leaf]

Sorry, are you citing movies (and not very good ones at that) as support for your (suspect) thinking?

Are you suggesting that Hollywood is not an accurate portrayer of reality?

:cantbeli:

[seraosha]

Are you suggesting that Hollywood is not an accurate portrayer of reality?

:cantbeli:

http://www.impawards.com/1986/posters/delta_force.jpg

no.way.

[Kitten Master]

You play lots of BF2, don't you?
Welcome to the boards, maybe you ought to do a little more info seeking before posting on topics you are unsure of, or have no clue about.
p-)


Yeah I relise that, Thank you. I will research before I make a post.

[RGRBOX]

Kitten, I don't know where you've been using a unifrom.. but camo has been a priority for me.. like forever...

If the damn thing sticks out like a chemlite, then i don't want to be around it..

RB

[Grumpy Bastard]

Propper is making a ACU Pattern unifrom in different camos now..

Even MARPAT.

RB

I just got some of them, for the collection really. Not a badly cut uniform at all. The patterns Propper are making are "sanitized" versions of Marpat including an urban colour scheme.

Propper got rid of the excess velcro on the sleeve pockets and the fabric seems a bit better than the ACU/TRU's I've had a look at. They could have improved the leg pocket fastening by using taped buttons instead of just velco I guess.

I know the ACU is also designed for garrison wear but I'm surprised at the front zip, why not just make it a pull over smock with a neck opening? (This being pretty much the cut of my old Ventile, less melty & more weather resistant, smock from back in the day.)

You get plenty of ventilation with a deep neck opening & it looks as smart as a full front opening if that's an issue. Also it's not expensive to have slits under the arms for extra breathability in really hot climates which would surely be more useful when worn with armour.

I know there's a few people who have been modifying their kit like this anyway so I'm a bit surprised it wasn't considered in the trials when a raid-esque BDU seemed to be the staring point for the ACU.