Anti-Global Left and Radical Islam Alliance

[Dakota435]

I know some of the lefties on this forum resent the accusation that they are allied with radical Islam. Well here ya go...

No doubt Chomsky was there.

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2007/839/sc1.htm

Anti-globalists reach out to Islamists
Cooperation between Islamists and the left is growing, reports Eric Walberg
Click to view caption
Leftist and Islamist young activists at work during the conference

What is striking about this latest conference is the growing cooperation both within the Muslim world and between the anti-global left and Muslims. This should come as no surprise, considering the traditional focus of the left on defending victims of torture. Who are the biggest victims of torture in the world today? Of course, Muslims, primarily in Iraq and Palestine, but everywhere in the West, and just about in every country that is predominantly Muslim.

The left realises this and is finally overcoming its traditional resistance to the cultural conservatism of Islam, and likewise Muslims are reaching out to the left -- clear examples are Egypt with the Muslim Brotherhood's (MB) prominent role in this conference and Lebanon, where Hizbullah was prominent at a similar anti-imperialism conference last November in Beirut. Organised by Al-Karama (Dignity), Al-Ishtirakyin Al-Sawryin (Socialist Revolutionary Party), Al-Ikhwan Al-Muslimin (Muslim Brotherhood) and Al-'Amal (Labour), and held at the Egyptian Press Syndicate, the conference attracted close to 600 participants and observers from around the world, including a delegation of 80 South Koreans and 20 Canadians.

But what can we make of the overwhelming prominence at the conference of the MB and their very professional brochures and CDs, well translated into English? One pamphlet quotes MB deputy Khairat El-Shater assuring the reader "No need to be afraid of us" and "We do not promote an anti- Western agenda". Certainly we can condemn the military tribunals where 40 prominent MB members are being tried under emergency laws, in violation of the constitution. Belal Diaa Farahat, a business student at the American University of Cairo told Al-Ahram Weekly how his father Diaaeddin Farahat, a prominent businessman, was arrested along with 39 others "merely because he was successful and a member of the MB." After three months in prison and acquittal in a civil court, these men were re-arrested and will face a military tribunal next week.

Ahmed Shawqi, a student activist at Al-Azhar, said that all the delegates at the conference were unanimous in condemning the tribunals. Delegates from London, Canada and Greece promised to demonstrate, and organise petitions to protest against the military tribunals and invite MB representatives on speaking tours in order to explain their position. Shawqi added, however, that an important aspect of the MB's platform is not to work against Egypt in its international relations. In a sense, the Brotherhood "stole the show" at the conference, with their very real oppression fitting the international delegates' human rights agenda. Coincidence or act of God?

The key forum at the conference: "bridge building between the left and Islam" focussed on re-evaluating the relations of the left and the Islamists, as well as on practical ways to increase cooperation.

Mohamed Ghozlan, an MB Al-Azhar student activist, described the underlying misunderstanding: "the left thought Islam was just an anachronism, while Muslims accused the left of trying to destroy their way of life. However, with both sides being repressed by dictatorship, we are able to cooperate now on the basis of human rights and the fight against the war in Iraq and globalisation. Such Latin American leaders as Hugo Chavez have accelerated the cooperation, reaching out to the Muslim resistance." He explained the greater repression of Muslim than leftists in Egypt to be due to the fact that "the government sees us as the greater threat to it."

In an interview with the Weekly, conference organiser Nada Kassass said, "the turning point in the relations of the left and Islamists was the Intifada in 2000, when the committee to support the Intifada brought (the two parties together). The wars in Iraq and Lebanon increased the collaboration, and the struggle around the 2006 elections in Egypt showed the success of this strategy, with six nationalists and 88 MB candidates elected. Earlier, when MB members were arrested, the left did little -- the government was able to use religion to keep the left afraid of the Islamists and the Islamists afraid of the 'godless' communists. Both sides were at fault here in Egypt. Ironically it was actually easier for Islamists to work with European leftists than Egyptians, but all that has changed. The bad blood between the MB and the left dates from the 1960s and is now being overcome." Kassass related how left, liberal and Muslim students at Cairo University, Al-Azhar and Ain Shams joined forces to scuttle student council elections which were rigged by the government earlier this year, though some were expelled, arrested and beaten. "People are joining together to defend their rights."

Kassass's evaluation of the situation in Egypt was echoed in the exchanges of Sadala Mazraani of the Lebanese Communist Party, and Ali Fayyad of Hizbullah. Mazraani admitted that during the civil war in Lebanon, Islamists and socialists were fighting each other, and argued that we should learn from the successes of the anti- fascist front of WWII, the nationalist revolution of the 1950s in Egypt and the non-aligned movement of the 1960s, when imperialism was on the defensive. He pointed out how Latin America is uniting with the Middle East against the common enemy, and said it was more a matter of coordinating movements that have recognised common goals. "The Lebanese Communist Party actively works with Hizbullah against the occupation and in elections, both trying to unite Lebanese society to fight Israel and Zionism."

Ali Fayyad of Hizbullah backed up Mazraani, though he complained that, "many socialists in Europe still refuse to work with us, calling us 'terrorist'". He admitted that Islamists are conservative and often don't want to work with the left, especially extremists like Al-Qaeda, which "will not work with anyone and will fail". Then there are the liberal Muslims who don't care about the war and occupation, lack a clear position on imperialism, and as a result, actually ally with it. "The differences of Hamas and Hizbullah with the left are minor -- family and social priorities -- and at the same time, the Islamic movement must apply democracy, which is really the same as shura. Democracy is a bridge to cross to a better world. We should avoid intolerance in governance, whether it's Islamic or not, and forcing religion upon people." He referred to Gramsci's argument about creating a common front at important historical junctures to induce historical change, after which the different groups can go their separate ways.What a lovely irony to have an Islamist quoting a Western communist theorist.

"By working with Islamic groups in an open way, the left can have a positive impact on Islamic movements, and vice versa."

The international left, as represented at the conference, emphasised practical ways to reach out to the broader Muslim community, as reflected in conference forums on such projects as twinning UK and Palestinian cities, countering the boycott of the Hamas government in Palestine with a boycott of Israel and Western firms that provide military equipment to Israel, countering Islamophobia -- in a word, citizens' diplomacy.

James Clark of the Canadian Peace Alliance described how the anti-war coalitions are now supportive of Muslims who find themselves targets of racial and religious profiling and no-fly lists, and that there is active work in the peace movement to counter Islamophobia, "which the governments use to fan the flames to generate support for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. They are committed to defend all civil liberties. "On the wall of the prayer room at Ryerson University in Toronto, someone's spray painted 'Die Muslim'. The administration refused to condemn this as hate crime, so we organised a petition and a campaign to counter Islamophobia, and as a result, the head of the Islamic students' organisation was elected president of the students' council. So you can use such incidents to educate and mobilise people." Clark vowed that the Canadian peace movement, inspired by the Arab resistance in Lebanon and Iraq, would work with Muslims to defeat imperialism.

Johannes Anderson of Denmark criticised the Danish left for not standing behind Muslims during the cartoon controversy, allowing a weak prime minister to emerge unscathed. "I've changed through the past years and grown through criticism. We should not be afraid of it. We fight for democracy in the Middle East and Europe against neo- liberalism which is taking away our rights everywhere."

Wafaa El-Masri of Al-Karama Party saw a new Islamic message emerging at the conference -- shared principles to build society, emphasising our commonalty. "The Egyptian national movement works with the Islamists to fight the constitutional amendments, to end the Mubarak regime, to unite against the Iraq war, and to support Iran against the threat of US attack."

While the conference's criticism of the repression of the host government would hardly merit a comment if it were held in, say, Toronto or Moscow, the lack of fear by the MB and Egyptian opposition representatives was impressive -- they realise that at any moment they too could be arrested and possibly tortured, yet they did not fear speaking out. Belal Farahat's father, one of the 40 MB prisoners awaiting next week's military tribunal, had his assets seized and stores closed by the government, yet Belal continues to study at AUC: "The whole point of the Brotherhood is that we are one and must help each other."

In an interview with the Weekly, George Hajjar, a political philosophy professor at the Lebanese University and head of the National Rally in Support of the Resistance Option, though optimistic about the growing understanding between leftists and Islamists and supportive of the conference as a whole, criticised it for not having representatives from the Iraqi resistance, "because the resistance is primarily nationalist, and the MB and Shias in Iraq are members of the occupation government."

[Macs.]

Are you really that narrow minded, Dakota435 ?

I mean seriously, or are you being sarcastic ?

[The Evil Doctor Faustus]

on a scale of 1 to narrow-minded, we're talking off the scale!

[afreu]

There is an international conspiracy of communist and islamist forces to destroy the USA. Not to forget the liberal media which neglects this problem.

[dangerclose]

There is an international conspiracy of communist and islamist forces to destroy the USA. Not to forget the liberal media which neglects this problem.

If only they were just neglecting it.

[WarriorMonk]

seems a little farfetched but then again...

enemy of my enemy is my friend...?

[Kant]

You should also read the articles on that site about how conservative fuelled colonialism is responsible for all of the troubles currently taking place in the Middle East.

Anyways, at first I took you seriously.But now I realise that you're no better than Mr Joshua and Danger close or the other neo-conservatives on here. Creating enemies with an entire social spectrum in a vain attempt to validate your own lack of relevance.At least Jobu and Thor are good for a laugh. But you are just annoying.

The day that you all realise your side doesn't have the mortgage on what is right, the better you will feel for it.

[shocker1]

What if your an anti-globalist right winger, or a globalist lefty? Nobody asked these people. This is flawed, unless you speak of those with backpacks and black masks at WTO and the G whatever meetings.

[Daniel1115]

seems a little farfetched but then again...

enemy of my enemy is my friend...?Pretty much. It's not that they share ideologies, just a common enemy. I'm not going to generalize the Left, for, like the Right, it is a broad political spectrum; but there are a few who do sympathize with Islamists and see them as victims of a globalist, neo-con agenda. Any action by Islamists is interpreted as merely reactionary. Some anarchists and conspiracy theorists hold this belief as well. Noam Chomsky is certianly among that list.

Another thought that some people I personally know who describe themselves as "Lefties" have is that as progressive thinkers, they believe that through history there is a natural order when those who are the minority eventually replace the majority. Thus, in their eyes, their motives are to restore a global balance in humanity.

[dangerclose]

The left, islamists and neo-nazis share one thing in common: a hatred of Israel.

[budgie]

This thread is even more pathetic than the latest attack on Edwards.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

You should also read the articles on that site about how conservative fuelled colonialism is responsible for all of the troubles currently taking place in the Middle East.

Anyways, at first I took you seriously.But now I realise that you're no better than Mr Joshua and Danger close or the other neo-conservatives on here. Creating enemies with an entire social spectrum in a vain attempt to validate your own lack of relevance.At least Jobu and Thor are good for a laugh. But you are just annoying.

The day that you all realise your side doesn't have the mortgage on what is right, the better you will feel for it.


Hey buddy, if you wanna get me in the sack, you're gonna have to sweet talk me better than that.


The article is kinda odd, I posted one similar to this one recently, but mine had to do with the European and American socialist left, which I've always believed to be "Globalist".

The article says the alliance between radical islam and anti-globalist?

Very odd.

[Hollis]

You should also read the articles on that site about how conservative fuelled colonialism is responsible for all of the troubles currently taking place in the Middle East.

Anyways, at first I took you seriously.But now I realise that you're no better than Mr Joshua and Danger close or the other neo-conservatives on here. Creating enemies with an entire social spectrum in a vain attempt to validate your own lack of relevance.At least Jobu and Thor are good for a laugh. But you are just annoying.

The day that you all realise your side doesn't have the mortgage on what is right, the better you will feel for it.


Are you not doing the same thing? I have to agree no one group has any more corner on what is right or wrong. The article was title the Left and Radical Islam are in bed with each other (My words), that is true. There are many leftist that are westerners and are self defacing, any, I mean any enemy of the "West" is good for them. That is a sad predicament to be in. Radical Islam has nothing but disdain for lefties. They rate leftist as worse than pagans.

Probably more than economic philosophies or religion, it is human nature we are dealing with. That nature is in every group. What seems to happen certain "groups" will just create a different percentage of people who will act in barbaric fashion. No group is with vicious people though (large groups). The mix will depend on the cultural aspect that justifiy those inhuman actions. Such as, as culture that allows for oppression of women, we will see more women abused in. Even a society that condemns abuse of women, women will still be abused but in a much lesser degree.

Another aspect is codependency, Justifying wrong doing because of some past event. The evil colonialist cause this, therefor we are justified to act like barbarians.

The biggest problem in Iraq is sectarian violence. People who profess to be of the same religion but different sect, justifying the right to slay the other. Not much different than the World Wars of the last century.

To use the past as justification to kill, will only repeat the past. Also you cannot blame the medieval attitude in the middle east on colonialism.

[Firetxmi]

The left, islamists and neo-nazis share one thing in common: a hatred of Israel.

Damn it, you've caught me! I lean slightly left therefor I hate Israel. :roll:

Like how you pulled the Nazi card too.

[Dasein]

Anti-globalization is not a left-wing issue. I am very much a pro-globalization leftist. I favor virtually unrestricted trade, but also open borders and free movement of labor. I think nation-states are on the way out and sovereignty is no longer particularly meaningful. This puts me at odds with people on the right who oppose my view of globalization because they feel it undermines the state. It also puts me at odds with those on the left who dislike my support of global capitalism.

It's not as simple as left/right, liberal or conservative. There's conservative isolationists and liberal internationalists, left wing pro-globalization and right-wing anti-globalization.

[PPSH41]

Damn it, you've caught me! I lean slightly left therefor I hate Israel. :roll:

Like how you pulled the Nazi card too.

His brush stroke was a bit wide, I'd say the extreme left. The ones way out there in left field. neither left or right is necessarily bad, they keep each other in check, but when you get too far extreme one way or the other they're ideas are pretty crazy.

[Firetxmi]

His brush stroke was a bit wide, I'd say the extreme left. The ones way out there in left field. neither left or right is necessarily bad, they keep each other in check, but when you get too far extreme one way or the other they're ideas are pretty crazy.

I agree, but Josh and Danger use the wide brush all the time- it gets old.

[Kilgor]

Are you really that narrow minded, Dakota435 ?

I mean seriously, or are you being sarcastic ?

I would claim the radical left is sympathetic to Islamic terrorism. The enemy of the enemy is my friend.

1. Hatred of capitalism.
2. Desire to remove Israel from the map.
3. Hatred of the United States.

Core principles shared alike.

[Dakota435]

Are you really that narrow minded, Dakota435 ?

I mean seriously, or are you being sarcastic ?

Well, Noam Chomsky, voted intellectual #1 in the lefty deep thinker hit parade (He is generally rated as one of the top thinkers in the US by liberals and is clearly a role model to the more radical lefties on this forum), appeared with Nasrallah in Lebanon last spring at a press conference singing the praises of Hezbollah and condemning evil Isreal.

Chomsky is obviously not the only one who feels this way. Just look at all the Paleo scarves at an anti-globo moonbat rally.

That pretty much sums it up. If you don't believe it, a little searching on MEMRI will turn up the clip of him on Hezbo TV.

So, are YOU being serious?

[Kilgor]

When the US-led coalition invaded Iraq in March 2003, few would have imagined that the move might lead to the formation of an alliance between the radical Left and hard-line Islamists in Western Europe. But this is precisely what happened.

In this month's election for a new European Parliament, voters in several European Union countries, notably France and Britain, are offered common Galloway, recently excluded from the Labor party, who is under investigation for the illegal receipt of funds from Saddam Hussein. Galloway heads a list of candidates backed by several radical leftist groups, notably The British Socialist Workers Party (SWP), as well as the Muslim Association of Britain, the British branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, and a dozen Palestinian groups financed by Yasser Arafat.

The Palestinian checkered headgear, worn by the leftists as a cache-col, has become the symbol of this left-Islamist alliance.

The New Statesman, the organ of the British moderate Left, calls the new Islamist-Marxist alliance "Saddam's Own Party." The label is not fanciful. Many of the groups involved in the alliance had been financed for years by Saddam through his so-called Cultural Relations Office in London.

IN FRANCE the radical Left alliance of Revolutionary Communist League (LCR) and Workers' Struggle (LO) groups counts on Islamist militants to help it win seats in the European Parliament.
Arlette Laguillere, the pasionaria of the Workers' Struggle, claims that "the struggle for Palestine" is now an integral part of the "global proletarian revolution."

Similar Marxist-Islamist alliances have been formed in Belgium and Germany, where the Muslim Brotherhood itself has been taken over by radicals sympathetic to al-Qaida.

Talks are underway for holding a pan-European conference next year to give the Marxist-Islamist alliance permanent organizational structures.

The European Marxist-Islamist coalition does not offer a coherent political platform. Its ideology is built around three themes: hatred of the United States, the dream of wiping Israel off the map, and the hoped-for collapse of the global economic system.

Europe's hard Left sees Muslims as the new under-class in the continent.

"Are these not the new slaves?" asks Olivier Besanconneau, leader of the French Trotskyites. "Is it not natural that they should unite with the working class to destroy the capitalist system?"

The idea of an alliance with Islamists has even seduced the more traditional French Communist Party (PCF), which commissioned a study of the possibilities of electoral alliances with Muslim organizations.

The Islamists, for their part, are attracted to the European hard Left because of its professed hatred of the United States and Israel.

"We say to anyone who hates the Americans and wants to throw the Jews out of Palestine: ahlan wa sahlan (welcome)," quipped Abu-Hamza al-Masri, the British Islamist firebrand who is awaiting extradition to the US on various criminal charges. "The Prophet teaches that we could ally ourselves even with the atheists if it helps us destroy [the] enemy."

The first to advocate a leftist-Islamist alliance against Western democracies was Ayman Al Zawahiri, al-Qaida's #2. In a message to al-Qaida sympathizers in Britain in August 2002, he urged them to seek allies among "any movement that opposes America, even atheists."

The idea has received support from Ilich Ramirez Sanchez, the Venezuelan terrorist known as Carlos the Jackal. In his book Revolutionary Islam, published in Paris last year, Carlos, who says he has converted to Islam, claims he has advised Osama bin Laden, the al-Qaida leader, to forge an alliance with "all guerrilla, terrorist, and other revolutionary groups throughout the world, regardless of their religious or ideological beliefs."

Carlos says Islam is the only force capable of persuading large numbers of people to become "volunteers" for suicide attacks against the US. "Only a coalition of Marxists and Islamists can destroy the US," he says.

Europe must wake up to the dangers that this new version of the red-and-black alliance poses to its democracy, indeed to its political and social peace.

http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/5163

[Dakota435]

When the US-led coalition invaded Iraq in March 2003, few would have imagined that the move might lead to the formation of an alliance between the radical Left and hard-line Islamists in Western Europe. But this is precisely what happened.

In this month's election for a new European Parliament, voters in several European Union countries, notably France and Britain, are offered common Galloway, recently excluded from the Labor party, who is under investigation for the illegal receipt of funds from Saddam Hussein. Galloway heads a list of candidates backed by several radical leftist groups, notably The British Socialist Workers Party (SWP), as well as the Muslim Association of Britain, the British branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, and a dozen Palestinian groups financed by Yasser Arafat.

The Palestinian checkered headgear, worn by the leftists as a cache-col, has become the symbol of this left-Islamist alliance.

The New Statesman, the organ of the British moderate Left, calls the new Islamist-Marxist alliance "Saddam's Own Party." The label is not fanciful. Many of the groups involved in the alliance had been financed for years by Saddam through his so-called Cultural Relations Office in London.

IN FRANCE the radical Left alliance of Revolutionary Communist League (LCR) and Workers' Struggle (LO) groups counts on Islamist militants to help it win seats in the European Parliament.
Arlette Laguillere, the pasionaria of the Workers' Struggle, claims that "the struggle for Palestine" is now an integral part of the "global proletarian revolution."

Similar Marxist-Islamist alliances have been formed in Belgium and Germany, where the Muslim Brotherhood itself has been taken over by radicals sympathetic to al-Qaida.

Talks are underway for holding a pan-European conference next year to give the Marxist-Islamist alliance permanent organizational structures.

The European Marxist-Islamist coalition does not offer a coherent political platform. Its ideology is built around three themes: hatred of the United States, the dream of wiping Israel off the map, and the hoped-for collapse of the global economic system.

Europe's hard Left sees Muslims as the new under-class in the continent.

"Are these not the new slaves?" asks Olivier Besanconneau, leader of the French Trotskyites. "Is it not natural that they should unite with the working class to destroy the capitalist system?"

The idea of an alliance with Islamists has even seduced the more traditional French Communist Party (PCF), which commissioned a study of the possibilities of electoral alliances with Muslim organizations.

The Islamists, for their part, are attracted to the European hard Left because of its professed hatred of the United States and Israel.

"We say to anyone who hates the Americans and wants to throw the Jews out of Palestine: ahlan wa sahlan (welcome)," quipped Abu-Hamza al-Masri, the British Islamist firebrand who is awaiting extradition to the US on various criminal charges. "The Prophet teaches that we could ally ourselves even with the atheists if it helps us destroy [the] enemy."

The first to advocate a leftist-Islamist alliance against Western democracies was Ayman Al Zawahiri, al-Qaida's #2. In a message to al-Qaida sympathizers in Britain in August 2002, he urged them to seek allies among "any movement that opposes America, even atheists."

The idea has received support from Ilich Ramirez Sanchez, the Venezuelan terrorist known as Carlos the Jackal. In his book Revolutionary Islam, published in Paris last year, Carlos, who says he has converted to Islam, claims he has advised Osama bin Laden, the al-Qaida leader, to forge an alliance with "all guerrilla, terrorist, and other revolutionary groups throughout the world, regardless of their religious or ideological beliefs."

Carlos says Islam is the only force capable of persuading large numbers of people to become "volunteers" for suicide attacks against the US. "Only a coalition of Marxists and Islamists can destroy the US," he says.

Europe must wake up to the dangers that this new version of the red-and-black alliance poses to its democracy, indeed to its political and social peace.

http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/5163

Yeah I can tell by the reaction of some of the forum members to the thread (only two stars bwaaaaaaa) that this issue strikes a nerve. Obviously there are libs and lefties who DON'T want an alliance with radical Islam, but the fact is there are a significant number who do, and it's got the sane ones in denial rather than face the problem.

[Firetxmi]

Yeah I can tell by the reaction of some of the forum members to the thread (only two stars bwaaaaaaa) that this issue strikes a nerve. Obviously there are libs and lefties who DON'T want an alliance with radical Islam, but the fact is there are a significant number who do, and it's got the sane ones in denial rather than face the problem.

A significant number, really? Do tell how you know this?

Maybe we are not in denial, we just simply don't believe that a majority of people with liberal or left leaning points of view want to see radical Islam succeed.

[Dakota435]

A significant number, really? Do tell how you know this?

Maybe we are not in denial, we just simply don't believe that a majority of people with liberal or left leaning points of view want to see radical Islam succeed.

I didn't say a majority just a "significant number", which is obvious to anybody who reads the signs at rallies, and is disturbing enough. And as I said, the left's primary leading light, good ole Noam, is pretty much thrown his lot publicly with Islamists by endorsing Hezbollah's program. So it is safe to assume that all of Chomsky's legions of followers agree with him.

Therefore, any reasonable person left lib or not who thinks an alliance with radical Islam and the Left is insane, would have to denounce and disown Chomsky. I haven't heard a peep from any of you yet.

[Kilgor]

I didn't say a majority just a "significant number", which is obvious to anybody who reads the signs at rallies, and is disturbing enough. And as I said, the left's primary leading light, good ole Noam, is pretty much thrown his lot publicly with Islamists by endorsing Hezbollah's program. So it is safe to assume that all of Chomsky's legions of followers agree with him.

Therefore, any reasonable person left lib or not who thinks an alliance with radical Islam and the Left is insane, would have to denounce and disown Chomsky. I haven't heard a peep from any of you yet.

And we are talking about a man who openly met with hezbollah and endorse their "resistance"

http://www.danielpipes.org/pics/new/large/9.jpg

The spiritual head of the radical left meeting men like these, needs no explanation or further proof.

[Firetxmi]

I didn't say a majority just a "significant number", which is obvious to anybody who reads the signs at rallies, and is disturbing enough.

So those who rally are indicative of all people on the left or with liberal views? To be honest I have never protested, I think many people on both sides of the political spectrum have not protested. With that said, maybe it is safe to assume that those who protest are obviously more passionate and more left or right leaning than you average liberal or conservative.

I also think it is funny that Noam Chomsky in your eyes is the poster boy for "them damn libs." I really don't think of him that way, don't really know anyone who does. Do you denounce all your talking heads- O'Reilly, good ol' racist Imus?

[PPSH41]

I don't think its necessarily the numbers behind it, more the amount of money that is there. People like George Soros, PETA, Sierra Club, DSA and all of the rest of the far-left organizations are pooring money into the Democratic party. Pushing otherwise fairly moderate polititians farther and farther left to get that money.

[Dakota435]

So those who rally are indicative of all people on the left or with liberal views? To be honest I have never protested, I think many people on both sides of the political spectrum have not protested. With that said, maybe it is safe to assume that those who protest are obviously more passionate and more left or right leaning than you average liberal or conservative.

I also think it is funny that Noam Chomsky in your eyes is the poster boy for "them damn libs." I really don't think of him that way, don't really know anyone who does. Do you denounce all your talking heads- O'Reilly, good ol' racist Imus?

Come on dude almost all the lefties I know have read Chomsky and generally agree with at least some of his themes. If there was a conservative leading light I thought highly of, (not Imus, who is more of a lib and from all accounts is a total asshole, and I really haven't heard O'Rielly say anything as insane as Chomsky), that I later learned was a supporter of some dark cult or a wacko fringe group, I would certainly drop him like a hot potato. I don't know of any MAINSTREAM commentators on the right who've endorse a fascist religious organization pledged to finish the job Hitler started.

So anyway, everything else aside, do you think Chomsky's support of Hezbo is despicable and discredits him as a commentator and a reasonable intellectual? I'd like to hear at least one lib say that.

[Hollis]

Funny that liberals identify with the leftists. The leftist that I knew thought lower of Liberals than conservatives.

[Firetxmi]

O'Reilly is too busy with the "War on Christmas" or ****** abusing his employees.


So anyway, everything else aside, do you think Chomsky's support of Hezbo is despicable and discredits him as a commentator and a reasonable intellectual? I'd like to hear at least one lib say that.

I don't know a thing about Chomsky. Haven't really studied him, nor do I really care to.

[Macs.]

Well, Noam Chomsky, voted intellectual #1 in the lefty deep thinker hit parade (He is generally rated as one of the top thinkers in the US by liberals and is clearly a role model to the more radical lefties on this forum), appeared with Nasrallah in Lebanon last spring at a press conference singing the praises of Hezbollah and condemning evil Isreal.

Chomsky is obviously not the only one who feels this way. Just look at all the Paleo scarves at an anti-globo moonbat rally.

That pretty much sums it up. If you don't believe it, a little searching on MEMRI will turn up the clip of him on Hezbo TV.

So, are YOU being serious?

So... Who is the "left", who are the "liberals" ? Do all of them read Noam Chomsky's books like the bible ? Where do I sign up to be part of that leftist community and the monthly newsletter telling me what books to read and what country to hate ?

I think this black and white view is just laughable, not anyone who considers himself "right" supported the Iraq-War, not anyone agrees with how George W. Bush handles his job and not every "leftie" is reading Noam Chomsky or "hates" Israel.

[Atlantic Friend]

The left, islamists and neo-nazis share one thing in common: a hatred of Israel.

The Left hates Israel ? I thought two-thirds of US Jews voted Democrat - so they must hate Israel, too ?

[Mr. JOSHUA]

The Left hates Israel ? I thought two-thirds of US Jews voted Democrat - so they must hate Israel, too ?



Aint you ever heard of the "self hating Jew"?

[Kaerry]

It's not only the far-left that hates US but also the far-right especially because of US's support for Israel. I think pretty much all non-Jewish extremist groups hate Israel and its allies to some extent.

[Atlantic Friend]

Aint you ever heard of the "self hating Jew"?

I have yet to meet one such person. And even if I can imagine people experiencing self-hate, the idea two thirds of the US Jews are into "self-hating" is a bit outlandish, to say the least.

The way I saw it used in many a forum thread and political discussion, the whole "self-hating X" label's only use is to justify painting the other side in any argument with the broadest possible bush by explaining away inconvenient realities with a convenient buzzword. As in :

- All the Democrats hate Israel, you know.
- But, what about the two-thirds of American jews who vote Democrat ?
- Er...they're self-hating Jews.
- And what about the many Democrats who state the US should defend Israel ?
- Er...they're self-hating Democrats.
- And what about the Israelis who...
- Look, they're self-hating Israelis, okay ? So it proves my point.
- But...
- Look, buddy, everybody is into self-hating, except you and me and I'm starting to have doubts about you here.

[Hollis]

The Left hates Israel ? I thought two-thirds of US Jews voted Democrat - so they must hate Israel, too ?


There is a difference in being leftist and a Liberal. There is virtually no Left in the US. Traditionally Jews have supported social programs which were the Demo's hallmark. Both the R's and D's are capitalistic parties. D's did have some labor aspects in it long ago. That changed when Labor Union lost a large amount of membership/power.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

I have yet to meet one such person. And even if I can imagine people experiencing self-hate, the idea two thirds of the US Jews are into "self-hating" is a bit outlandish, to say the least.

The way I saw it used in many a forum thread and political discussion, the whole "self-hating X" label's only use is to justify painting the other side in any argument with the broadest possible bush by explaining away inconvenient realities with a convenient buzzword. As in :

- All the Democrats hate Israel, you know.
- But, what about the two-thirds of American jews who vote Democrat ?
- Er...they're self-hating Jews.
- And what about the many Democrats who state the US should defend Israel ?
- Er...they're self-hating Democrats.
- And what about the Israelis who...
- Look, they're self-hating Israelis, okay ? So it proves my point.
- But...
- Look, buddy, everybody is into self-hating, except you and me and I'm starting to have doubts about you here.

Have your doubts, but let me explain myself before you do.

George Soros, what are his stances on Israel and is he a Jew?

What political agenda does he push? Certainly, not a rightwing agenda.

The majority of the Jews who vote democrat are self hating Jews or very naive and gullable, they gobbled up everything Clinton and the Clintonites fed them, while all this time they supported and even did business with countries or known groups that are hostile towards Israel and Jews.

Sean Penn, he's not an important figure but is a prime example of the self hating Jew, if God forbid another conflict starts with Hezbollah and Israel, who do you think he's gonna be blasting and who he's gonna be praising?

Self hating, it doesn't mean that they hate themselves, it means they despise and resent their backround, much like a city teenager resents or hates the fact that they were brought up with religous values.

They don't want those values, they want to be the opposite, counter-culture so to speak.

And some of them take it even further by trying to spite, insult, defame, verbally attack and soforth the religion or conservative upbringing they had.

Anybody can claim this and that, a republican can claim he's for abortion, why?

Because he's either trying to scrape up the last few votes he can or he's in a state where he cannot afford to be against abortion.

Same thing with the democrats and any politician for that matter.

To say 2/3 of Jews are self hating Jews is absurd?

How so?

If its the new contemporary way of thinking, why is it not possible for that many people to be of that ideology for the lack of a better word.

If wahhabism can spread like fire throughout Islam because of a small minority who claimed Islam wasn't conservative enough, why can't the thought of Judaism being too conservative spread like fire aswell?

You said it an over used term to make broad generalizations, I have broken it down for you here.

[Atlantic Friend]

The majority of the Jews who vote democrat are self hating Jews or very naive and gullable, they gobbled up everything Clinton and the Clintonites fed them, while all this time they supported and even did business with countries or known groups that are hostile towards Israel and Jews.

But don't Republican Administrations do business with the exact same nations or groups ? Saudi Arabia, PAkistan, or Egypt don't rank too high on the list of countries sending Hanukah cards to Tel Aviv, and yet they enjoy strong support from Administrations of both sides.


Sean Penn, he's not an important figure but is a prime example of the self hating Jew, if God forbid another conflict starts with Hezbollah and Israel, who do you think he's gonna be blasting and who he's gonna be praising?

I don't know Sean Penn's posityions about Israel - and to tell you the truth I didn't know he was a Jew. Is criticizing Israel being a self-hating Jew, or does Penn call for the destruction of Israel or something like that ?


Self hating, it doesn't mean that they hate themselves, it means they despise and resent their backround, much like a city teenager resents or hates the fact that they were brought up with religous values.They don't want those values, they want to be the opposite, counter-culture so to speak.

That comparison seems a bit flawed to me, for adolescence is that time of our life where we define our own set of values, and often find it easier to do it by rebelling against the ones we were taught. I can't regard Liberal Jews (or Conservative Buddhists for that matter) as politically immature, even if some of these Jews and some of these Buddhists are indeed immature.


And some of them take it even further by trying to spite, insult, defame, verbally attack and soforth the religion or conservative upbringing they had.

Again, you'll find people like that. Some of them ? Certainly. But saying "the Left hates Israel" and "US Jews who vote Democrat are self-hating Jews" means , two thirds of US Jews, and half of Americans, hate Israel out of rebellion ? That does not sound realistic to me.


Anybody can claim this and that, a republican can claim he's for abortion, why? Because he's either trying to scrape up the last few votes he can or he's in a state where he cannot afford to be against abortion. Same thing with the democrats and any politician for that matter.

Why couldn't he be in favor of abortion, because that is what he believes in ?
Why couldnt a Liberal be against abortion because it's something he believes in ?


To say 2/3 of Jews are self hating Jews is absurd? How so?

Because it does sound absurd. If there was one Conservative Jew and all the others were Liberal, you'd thus have to say everyone is a self-hating Jew BUT that one guy. Occam's razor doesn't think so.


If its the new contemporary way of thinking, why is it not possible for that many people to be of that ideology for the lack of a better word.

That's saying two thirds of US jews are closet antisemites, which I would have trouble to say with a straight face.


If wahhabism can spread like fire throughout Islam because of a small minority who claimed Islam wasn't conservative enough, why can't the thought of Judaism being too conservative spread like fire aswell?

Certainly you can have people promoting a stricter or more relaxed form of religion, with a certain degree of success. But this is a very different step from saying "Two thirds of this group are actually self-hating and promoting their own self-destruction". Wahabbism is not about being self-hating Muslims, just like Protestantism wasn't about being self-hating Christians. If Wahhabism was about secretely resenting to be a Muslim, then I guess it wouldn't be that successful - just as Nihilism never ranked that high on the Philosophic Charts.

[Dakota435]

It's not only the far-left that hates US but also the far-right especially because of US's support for Israel. I think pretty much all non-Jewish extremist groups hate Israel and its allies to some extent.

Deep down the reason Israel and the US are hated, or at least disliked by more moderate people, is because they are so successful. Anybody who has been successful in sales knows this basic aspect of human nature.

There is probably more sheer genius per capita in Israel than anywhere else. The US just achieves so damn much because its human potential is allowed bloom with the least restrictions.

[Atlantic Friend]

Deep down the reason Israel and the US are hated, or at least disliked by more moderate people, is because they are so successful. Anybody who has been successful in sales knows this basic aspect of human nature.

There is probably more sheer genius per capita in Israel than anywhere else. The US just achieves so damn much because its human potential is allowed bloom with the least restrictions.

Isn't that a convenient way to explain critics away by calling them jealous losers ?

[Mr. JOSHUA]

But don't Republican Administrations do business with the exact same nations or groups ? Saudi Arabia, PAkistan, or Egypt don't rank too high on the list of countries sending Hanukah cards to Tel Aviv, and yet they enjoy strong support from Administrations of both sides.

I knew you were gonna say that, we are not talking about republicans, we are talking about democrats and the left and I am pretty sure you are aware that the democrats garner more of the Jewish vote than the repooblicans.




I don't know Sean Penn's posityions about Israel - and to tell you the truth I didn't know he was a Jew. Is criticizing Israel being a self-hating Jew, or does Penn call for the destruction of Israel or something like that ?

Well he is, I posted an article recently on how he is repeating his fathers history: "Hollywood History Repeats Itself".

Search for it, I put it on Politcal Discussions, read it if you like.


That comparison seems a bit flawed to me, for adolescence is that time of our life where we define our own set of values, and often find it easier to do it by rebelling against the ones we were taught. I can't regard Liberal Jews (or Conservative Buddhists for that matter) as politically immature, even if some of these Jews and some of these Buddhists are indeed immature.

Why can't you?

If someone is immature, they're immature, if someone does not want to own up to being wrong, is that not being immature?

I know it would be regarded as hardheaded but it is still being immature, not being able to own up to being wrong that is.




Again, you'll find people like that. Some of them ? Certainly. But saying "the Left hates Israel" and "US Jews who vote Democrat are self-hating Jews" means , two thirds of US Jews, and half of Americans, hate Israel out of rebellion ? That does not sound realistic to me.

They don't hate them out of rebellion, its kinda hard to explain without coming off as a cospiracy theorist, but, to me it has to do with politics, politics, politics, why has the US changed so dramatically since WWII in terms of patriotism and support for military operations?

To me, its because politicians over the years have thought of ways to hoodwink the average citizen into believing that they themselves are fighting for a noble cause for the citizens, if it involves putting a black eye on their own country then so be it.

If it involves turning your own country into the enemy and the enemy into the hero and it gets some votes, why change it.

If our politicians can hoodwink some of citizens here in America, what makes you think they can't do the same for certain voter bases with ties to certain religions or countries?

What makes you think the cannot convince certain people that they were wrong all along and that "A" is really evil and that they will do what they cant to fight "A" and its injustices.

Just look at Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, they're the masters at creating conflict where there is no conflict and capitalising on it.





Why couldn't he be in favor of abortion, because that is what he believes in ?
Why couldnt a Liberal be against abortion because it's something he believes in ?


I'm not saying that he could not be in favor of abortion, I'm just saying the reality of today is that it is more than likely that our politicians wet their index fingers and put them up in the wind rather than go with whats really in their hearts.




Because it does sound absurd. If there was one Conservative Jew and all the others were Liberal, you'd thus have to say everyone is a self-hating Jew BUT that one guy. Occam's razor doesn't think so.


Maybe I need to clarify myself, not all Jews are self hating Jews, but the key ones are: George Soros, Sean Penn, endless funds and endless cameras and mic's to spout off their twisted rhetoric, not everybody is as educated as you and i'm not being a smart ass, its like I said before, there's a good chunk of America who has their minds on whats contemporary rather than whats going on with their country.

These are the same people who just so happen to catch a snippet of a 30 min MSM news cast and they think that they are fully informed of the local, nations and worlds events.

These are the same people who have already made up their minds politically because of this 30 min broadcast which by the way was by the MSM which by the way has been accused over and over againg of being one sided.



That's saying two thirds of US jews are closet antisemites, which I would have trouble to say with a straight face.

Not antisemite, more of anticonservative, I think they want a more relaxed religion which is really an oxymoron when you think about it.




Certainly you can have people promoting a stricter or more relaxed form of religion, with a certain degree of success. But this is a very different step from saying "Two thirds of this group are actually self-hating and promoting their own self-destruction". Wahabbism is not about being self-hating Muslims, just like Protestantism wasn't about being self-hating Christians. If Wahhabism was about secretely resenting to be a Muslim, then I guess it wouldn't be that successful - just as Nihilism never ranked that high on the Philosophic Charts.

How do you explain the anti-Christ and the goth rebels here in America?

[Atlantic Friend]

I knew you were gonna say that, we are not talking about republicans, we are talking about democrats and the left and I am pretty sure you are aware that the democrats garner more of the Jewish vote than the repooblicans.

Well, you were saying self-hating Jews were immature because they were voting Democrat even though Democrat administrations are doing business with antisemitic countries and organizations. And I am saying, wait a minute, Republican administrations do business with the SAME countries and organizations, so how are the Left-leaning Jews any dumber than the Right-leaning ones. Which seems to me, I must very immodestly say, a rather relevant question.


Well he is, I posted an article recently on how he is repeating his fathers history: "Hollywood History Repeats Itself".

Search for it, I put it on Politcal Discussions, read it if you like.

Thanks, I will.


Why can't you?

Basically because I think one can very maturely and reasonably reach a political position that I disagree with, and because I can't explain away other people's political beliefs as their being unable or refusing to see the Truth, just because I disagree with them. Now if you ask me why I cannot do THAT, I'd tell you it's because of intellectual honesty, and because it would deprive both of us of the pleasure of this conversation.


If someone is immature, they're immature, if someone does not want to own up to being wrong, is that not being immature? I know it would be regarded as hardheaded but it is still being immature, not being able to own up to being wrong that is.

Having a different political opinion is being wrong ?



They don't hate them out of rebellion, its kinda hard to explain without coming off as a cospiracy theorist, but, to me it has to do with politics, politics, politics, why has the US changed so dramatically since WWII in terms of patriotism and support for military operations?

If you ask my outsider opinion, I'd say the US - along with the rest of the Western World - has gone soft because we have enjoyed a long period of peace. Being rational creatures as a whole, we soon realized that living in peace was better than the opposite, so we get increasingly irritated, sometimes rightfully and sometimes wrongfully, at those who advocate conflict. And we lose our ability to comprehend what can motivate such people, be they our foes or our friends.


To me, its because politicians over the years have thought of ways to hoodwink the average citizen into believing that they themselves are fighting for a noble cause for the citizens, if it involves putting a black eye on their own country then so be it.

In a democracy, politicians usually don't exist in a vaccuum. They tend to follow deep undercurrents rather than fight them and lead. In this respect, I think your explanation and mine tend to fuse together.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

Well, you were saying self-hating Jews were immature because they were voting Democrat even though Democrat administrations are doing business with antisemitic countries and organizations. And I am saying, wait a minute, Republican administrations do business with the SAME countries and organizations, so how are the Left-leaning Jews any dumber than the Right-leaning ones. Which seems to me, I must very immodestly say, a rather relevant question.

Well then forgive me for giving the wrong impression or not being able to atriculate better, I meant in the sense like the way the media bashes Bush, now, I am not the biggest fan of Bush, but I am still reasonable when I see him making an effort on something that is in the best interest of our country, now there are good "whole hearted American Democrats that do still believe in whats best for the country, and then there is the majority who have hijacked the party and who will not budge on inch even if its something that would usually be to their liking, they still will not budge in terms of saying alright, Bush or the Republicans or this conservative did good because it was in the best interest of the country.

These are the people I meant, the people who've already made up their minds that Bush and the republicans are their sworn enemy and will do everything in their power to undermine them.


Thanks, I will.

I sincerely meant that in a positive way and not in a smartass way, just wanted to clear that up.



Basically because I think one can very maturely and reasonably reach a political position that I disagree with, and because I can't explain away other people's political beliefs as their being unable or refusing to see the Truth, just because I disagree with them. Now if you ask me why I cannot do THAT, I'd tell you it's because of intellectual honesty, and because it would deprive both of us of the pleasure of this conversation.

I agree aswell, but I also believe people can be hoodwinked into believing fables and fairytales, just look at how the Duke Lacrosse Team was lynched and buried before there was ever a trial, because of who?

The media and those oh-so lovable Political Pundits/lobbyist/shakedown artist/con-men/ whatever you wanna call them who sit their and preach and preach and preach about how this group is evil and that group is evil but you cannot criticize our group because then you are a racist.

These are the same people who drive the democratic agenda, they may not have the reigns, but do have significant influence on them.



Having a different political opinion is being wrong ?

Not admitting when you're wrong is wrong, having different political backrounds and views is a must, if not, then we have communism.





If you ask my outsider opinion, I'd say the US - along with the rest of the Western World - has gone soft because we have enjoyed a long period of peace. Being rational creatures as a whole, we soon realized that living in peace was better than the opposite, so we get increasingly irritated, sometimes rightfully and sometimes wrongfully, at those who advocate conflict. And we lose our ability to comprehend what can motivate such people, be they our foes or our friends.


I can agree with that, but I also believe that the politicians believe that aswell and capitalise on it to benefit their agenda.



In a democracy, politicians usually don't exist in a vaccuum. They tend to follow deep undercurrents rather than fight them and lead. In this respect, I think your explanation and mine tend to fuse together.

ok.

[9mmRifle]

on a scale of 1 to narrow-minded, we're talking off the scale!

Do you see a bit of tongue ?


http://www.giveupblog.com/images/kiss-saudi.jpg

[Dakota435]

Isn't that a convenient way to explain critics away by calling them jealous losers ?

Simple fact of life. Many people dislike winners.

[inarguable]

Simple fact of life. Many people dislike winners.

I have always found it interesting that the Jews are able to carry such a powerful force on the world stage, yet what is so surprising to many is how small a segment of the global society the Jewish faith comprises. How much of the planet's population are adherents to Judaism?

2,100,000,000 Christians - 33% of the global populous
1,300,000,000 Muslims - 21%
....14,000,000 Jews - 0.22%

The Jewish faith comprises but a tiny sliver of the Homo sapiens pie - a mere 0.22% of the planet's population, and the faith also has a stagnant propagation factor that fluctuates just above or below the zero growth rate. From a purely statistical/analytical perspective, talk about an underdog! :)

[Dakota435]

I have always found it interesting that the Jews are able to carry such a powerful force on the world stage, yet what is so surprising to many is how small a segment of the global society the Jewish faith comprises. How much of the planet's population are adherents to Judaism?

2,100,000,000 Christians - 33% of the global populous
1,300,000,000 Muslims - 21%
....14,000,000 Jews - 0.22%

The Jewish faith comprises but a tiny sliver of the Homo sapiens pie - a mere 0.22% of the planet's population, and the faith also has a stagnant propagation factor that fluctuates just above or below the zero growth rate. From a purely statistical/analytical perspective, talk about an underdog! :)

That's because they don't "recruit" converts. If you are a non Jew you have to make an overt effort to join. The general Jewish population therefore is a function of its overall birth rate.