What do you sacrifice for the war?

[WARPIG]

Where is the sacrifice that the American people have grown tired of in support of this war on terror?
Without getting into the blame game.. I'd like to discuss what exactly the people of the United States are growing tired of sacrificing in this war on terror. There are countless discussions about the human toll that the US suffers for the sake of a "losing, illegal, unjust, unwarranted, unwanted, _________<insert negative description" war in Iraq.

Most logical people understand that our human loss is very low in comparison to most Wars in history. Of course, no loss is acceptable. Some political focus is still driven based on that subject. Our political climate grows more heated as the focus on the War in Iraq continues to "burden" the US. So what is the real burden, the sacrifice, what exactly does the the American People have to give up to support the war? Money? OK... So not enough bang for the buck. Is that reason enough for the political fall out and the call to simply quit? Maybe there is a disconnect or lack of understanding about what is at stake here. Further, there is definitely a lack of understanding about what and where that buck is being spent. Our military is smaller, costs less than half of the GDP than it has in recent wars, uses less servicemen to do bigger jobs, and has turned it's reserve and national guard into a full time war filler. Yet, the political left wants to take funding away. This isn't a new development, we basically tried to fund war cheaply, with a smaller military, and more tasks. Regardless, the military has been getting it done. So, basically, the military has been sacrificing.. What about the government? I don't see it. Still, can't seem to see where the American people are sacrificing. Discount prices for soldiers to fight war with US tax dollars, yet the American People are losing faith and growing tired of funding the war?
Sure, this is a bit of a rant on my part. But one of the things that we lack in this war IS support from the American Population. Be it war bonds, some form of war tax, the draft, or anything remotely inconvenient to the US population.. We dare not ask. I don't assume that this is the end all issue that is hampering the war effort... But a significant one from my perspective. I think it is academic that our government has done more to hamper the war effort but we all, soldiers and citizens alike, share in the blame as well as the outcome. The US government, and the US people are not at war. US soldiers and their families are.

OK.. so I'm baiting a little bit with my own opinion of this here. Just keep the deliberate flames to yourself and bring some intelligent discussion for my enlightenment.

[cover2]

I haven't sacrificed a thing. Not directly, anyway.

What has the USA sacrificed? 3,000+ lives, I've lost track of the billions of dollars that could have been spent elsewhere (think: Katrina, education, prisons, roads w/o potholes), the lack of prestige of the USA, the wearing down of our offensive and defensive capabilities worldwide and our associated ability to respond to threats elsewhere (Iran, N. Korea, etc.).

Indirectly most of those things are sacrifices I've made, but I'd never compare it to what the soldiers there have sacrificed everyday for the last 4 years.

There's only been a lot on the line b/c of a misguided policy from the beginning. If Saddam was still there, there'd be nothing on the line. Plus, I don't think you can compare this war with past ones, particularly WW2 with war bond drives, draft, etc. We were not attacked, nor have our allies been, as was the case with WW2. For Vietnam, there was a draft, and of course you saw the result of that in terms of the popularity of the war, another "limited war" with no definition for victory.

[onefast93z28]

First off, I support our efforts in Iraq.

The biggest problem I see is the funding issue. I know that there are other things our federal budget needs to spend more on. An example is the shortage of Air Traffic Controls in the US becuase the FAA can't get the money it needs. Almost all ATC facilites are running understaffed and over worked. They are hardly hireing new guys and just gave new hires a 40% pay cut and over 60% of the current workforce will retire over the next 5 or so years. It takes years to train new controllers (4 years at a CTI college, then 2-3 years of on the job training, after waitng around a year to get hired) so this is a big problem.

[Hollis]

Lets See the worse financial situation the military was in, was during the Clintoon administration. The Problem with Reed Hospital began there, it was doom for demolition. All one needs to do is ask anyone who served then.

IMHO, the war is pretty much invisible in the States, except for the families directly effected by it, those families with people serving.

[WARPIG]

I think my point here is that we aren't spending too much money on Iraq.. but never started with enough. Don't confuse policy with strategy. Our strategy was flawed to begin with. Not enough troops, not enough funding, not enough forsight.. the list goes on. It's too much to ask the American people to do anything but "approve" of our actions. The American people didn't lose 3000 people to the war.. those numbers would have been lost without a war. (Check the stats.) Even if they were more significant, those losses are military.. not the publics. The government is only in the war as far as money and poor micromanagement. Not much else. Leaving the rebuilding of a sovereign government to an overworked military wasn't very good strategy either. Less than half of the GDP funds our military now as in the Gulf war almost 2 decades ago.. so the tax burden isn't a sacrifice either. No war bonds, the IRR isn't being tapped, no war tax, most military equipment is contracted, no draft. No sacrifice. Other than having been force fed bull**** from the MSM about what they want you to think is going on in Iraq.. the US has been little more than inconvenienced.

[CPLHUNTER]

That is a great point.

We as a nation really haven't sacrificed much, except maybe paying a bit more for gas.

As for me? I have really haven't given anything up, but since I'll going to MEPS at month end to complete my enlistment, I'll suppose be doing my part.

[Skutatos]

I had a friend(will not give names to protect privacy) in the USMC who died in Fallujah. Also my best friend since we were seven is serving in Iraq currently. He is like a brother to me, so I often worry about his safety.

[Ordie]

Sacrifice nothing....

Protect our Constitutional Rights!!!

If we lose our rights, the enemy has won.

[WarriorMonk]

no matter what, the political left has always been anti-military, and anti-US in general (discounting the Bush factor and all of his mistakes)

[Doublethinker]

Maybe there is a disconnect or lack of understanding about what is at stake here.

So what is at stake there?

[Roids]

I think it's more along the lines of they don't care, at least not an enough to really want to do anything significant. Remember when Iraq was about to be invaded and the feeling along with it? We had just liberated Afghanistan from the Taliban and felt like we could do a favor for Iraq and ourselves. After the WMDs were not found, the people lost interest, as Saddam wasn't going to effect us anymore.

I think that the higher gas prices give people a greater feeling to end the war then the troops dying(!). If they really cared, it would have been like Vietnam. Which is why you see some anti-war folk wanting the draft, so we can re-create Vietnam with mass protest and draft-card burning. The feeling about the troops is more subtle, it's along the lines of "I feel sorry for them" because, you know, it's only those "black kids from Harlem trying to get college money" that fight the war. It makes me cringe everytime I hear "I don't know why anyone would ever want to join the military".

I think the term you used "Bang for the buck" is fitting to describe the atmosphere. I bet if we were to pull out right now people would look at what would happen to Iraq and not care, no Iraqi life is worth an American one(even if this could effect Americans in the long run). Everyone would just go "Okay" and go on with life.

In all honesty I never want the military to fight another war like this. Their seems to be only two kinds of wars the American people will support, one that is a month long or one where we are attacked. If another 9/11 happens, so be it. It's better to win our wars then to fight ones we will inevitably lose because of our own will.

[seraosha]

I've had my respect of the Democratic Party and our Media ripped to shreds over the Iraqi Conflict. Until 2000-2003 I think I lived in a bubble where the media was here to inform, and the 2 different parties were really on the same team, just different approaches.

So as to my personal sacrifice, I think a difficult thing to measure was lost...naivety, innocence, maybe just ignorance...and I can't say I miss it.

[nahimov]

As soon as we "have to" sacrifice something the war in Iraq will end. Simply put, there are not enough Americans who are convinced we are fighting correct war for correct reasons. I myself don't think that war in Iraq has anything to do with war on terror. By spending so much money on war and borrowing to fund it we really sacrificing the future of our children or grand children.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Most logical people understand that our human loss is very low in comparison to most Wars in history. Of course, no loss is acceptable.

I'ma have to disagree with this a bit. I mean, it's hard to say that loss is acceptable, but it's simply a reality. If you go to war, people are going to die, plain and simple. Hell, they will be a handful killed just on the drive over. The question becomes; what is an acceptable loss vs. what we hope to gain? To my way of thinking, what we believed to be at stake (with the WMD inspections) & what the situation is now in the ME, more than justifies the sacrifices the nation has made. That's a judgement call, but that's how I see it.

To be clear about "what have we sacrificed" - for the average Joe American - they have sacrificed absolutely nothing. We have an all-volunteer military, and nobody is compelled to serve. Our economy is booming with full employment, high wages, and wall street at record levels. Yes things can always be better as we measure ourselves against unreachable perfection, but things are pretty damn good.

IMHO the entire anti-war mantra is nothing more than a politically useful knee-jerk reaction led by those who have invested their self-worth in validating and reliving the anti-war stance of their youth. Media outlets and academia overwhelmingly lean to the left and they are managed and staffed by people who were marching in anti-war rallies in 1970. It is picked up, amplified, nurtured, polished, and served up as a political means to an end. Based on "what we have sacrificed" there is simply no rational basis for our current media led anti-war hysteria.


I've had my respect of the Democratic Party and our Media ripped to shreds over the Iraqi Conflict. Until 2000-2003 I think I lived in a bubble where the media was here to inform, and the 2 different parties were really on the same team, just different approaches.

So as to my personal sacrifice, I think a difficult thing to measure was lost...naivety, innocence, maybe just ignorance...and I can't say I miss it.

I agree - even pre-war I leaned to the right - but after seeing their disgraceful display during wartime, it has galvanized me into what most people would consider a hard line right winger. Oh well, you choose your side and go with it.

[Roids]

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/5349/warnx2.jpg

[WARPIG]

As soon as we "have to" sacrifice something the war in Iraq will end. Simply put, there are not enough Americans who are convinced we are fighting correct war for correct reasons. I myself don't think that war in Iraq has anything to do with war on terror. By spending so much money on war and borrowing to fund it we really sacrificing the future of our children or grand children.


The war in Iraq has everything to do with the war on terror.. now. Yeah.. the argument of whether it did in the first place will continue to stink up these forums for quite a while.. but whether the war on terror is being fought in Iraq right now is pretty obvious. It is indeed.

Basically, my problem with America as a culture right now is that we are treating this war as if we deserve to lose. Blaming the government seems to be enough justification to let the military walk away after beating the snot out of terrorists, insurgents, and all manner murderers and criminals in Iraq yet still being called failures. Doing what is right is less a priority since we can blame our government for it's poor leadership.

If some dumbass is talking on the phone while driving at 80mph on the freeway and ends up rolling his $50,000 SUV into the ditch.. do we simply drive by because it's his own fault? My opinion of America today looks a lot that way.

Now.. I don't just mean to blame American culture for this.. but the government and the military as well didn't bother to risk asking the American public to shoulder any of this burden. A professional military's pride won't let us accept another draft, and a gang of inept yes men wouldn't risk losing public favor on an unpopular war.

[MPNFL]

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/5349/warnx2.jpg

That pretty much summed up what I was going to say

[SBL]

If some dumbass is talking on the phone while driving at 80mph on the freeway and ends up rolling his $50,000 SUV into the ditch.. do we simply drive by because it's his own fault? My opinion of America today looks a lot that way.


I think you've hit on it. The hallmark of modern American culture is self-absorption; nobody wants to feel uncomfortable or shoulder any responsibility. People tend to just blame the government when they hear something negative, go back to their latte and on their merry way.

[AZRON]

I support the troops and the mission.

I have given money to charities that help the troops such as USO and DAV and others plus attended some support events.
Will always buy a WOT vet a beer when I run into one in a bar.

I gave Uncle Sam 6 years of my ass once upon a time.

I have complained heavily about the conduct of the war in regards to Rummy, Wolfowitz, Feith , Bremmer and Sanchez.

I fully support Gate's and Patreus's game plan and surely hope it works well.

[Skutatos]

Im more afraid of losing rights because of 'political correctness' then to any war.

[WARPIG]

I think you've hit on it. The hallmark of modern American culture is self-absorption; nobody wants to feel uncomfortable or shoulder any responsibility. People tend to just blame the government when they hear something negative, go back to their latte and on their merry way.

Well, I was being slightly facetious. Although more and more, typical Americans prove me right.. My intent wasn't to shift blame. My view of the lack of involvement by the American people comes from a strategic standpoint. A Nation at war sort of needs a Nation to support it. If funding is an issue, then Americans need to come off of their wallet. If human resources is an issue, then that whole selective service thing gets used. But, there wasn't any need for it since our leadership didn't see the need to put any more troops than was barely necessary. Our shock and awe campaign was limited to some flyboys and their hitech toys. Overwhelming force was dependant on the minimum amount of troops on the ground with out the necessary equipment (unless they bought it) and the skill of our fighting men and women. Our skill held the line when the discount shock and awe fell short. That same minimum force was tasked with winning hearts and minds while rebuilding a government that had no security. Battles continued to be one by skill yet our forces were continually being run through the gauntlet. Soldiers on 2nd and 3rd tours and reenlisting were slowly being thrown under the bus by the media and the American people. War criticiques aren't being held accountable for claiming the "human toll" as a talking point when barely more than military families are doing anything for the troops. Our strategy was flawed to begin with and I am not talking about the whole "Bush lied" mantra. The only thing US citizens were asked to do was to rally behind the war effort. They did, until the intelligence and facts about WMD's didn't rattle out like on CSI. Our culture's need for instant gratification and a sterile war wasn't met, and regardless of the lack of contribution, simple patriotism was too much to ask. Regardless, the yes man posse in our government found it easier to get rid of the people asking the hard questions rather than finding answers. Discount military, poplation that can't even afford to show some team spirit much less contribute anything, and an inept govermnent that gets rid of the people who don't agree to sanitary, PC, remote control war.

[Skutatos]

I agree, its like what Cyrus the Great said "...from soft lands come soft men"

[Weasel]

I hope I won´t get banned for writing this:

In my humble (and non-american) opinion the biggest sacrifice for the war is the developing of a big-brother state and the disregarding of human rights (Gitmo). In short: less freedom.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

I hope I won´t get banned for writing this:

In my humble (and non-american) opinion the biggest sacrifice for the war is the developing of a big-brother state and the disregarding of human rights (Gitmo). In short: less freedom.

I understand your point, but the fact is, we're not living in gulags yet and i'm still spouting my right wing talking points.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

I hope I won´t get banned for writing this:

In my humble (and non-american) opinion the biggest sacrifice for the war is the developing of a big-brother state and the disregarding of human rights (Gitmo). In short: less freedom.

If that's the biggest sacrifice, then I have indeed made none. Because my life is absolutely the same as it was before before these supposed draconian measures. Gitmo, btw, is the only prison in Cuba that the Red Cross has been granted access to since the early 1980's.

[Weasel]

I understand your point, but the fact is, we're not living in gulags yet and i'm still spouting my right wing talking points.

Do you see this development, too? Independent from agreeing or disagreeing with the imperative of these actions.

[AZRON]

I hope I won´t get banned for writing this:

disregarding of human rights (Gitmo).

Yep , I know what you mean , I feel the disregard of the human rights of 2700 people that went to work in the WTC on 9/11 scares me also.

Same scenario isn't it ? Wrong place at the wrong time doing the wrong thing !

[Weasel]

If that's the biggest sacrifice, then I have indeed made none. Because my life is absolutely the same as it was before before these supposed draconian measures. Gitmo, btw, is the only prison in Cuba that the Red Cross has been granted access to since the early 1980's.

You know why Gitmo is criticized and what I mean. Only there the inmates are kept without being proven guilty = no justice. That´s not what the US used to stand for.

[Weasel]

Yep , I know what you mean , I feel the disregard of the human rights of 2700 people that went to work in the WTC on 9/11 scares me also.

Same scenario isn't it ? Wrong place at the wrong time doing the wrong thing !

Fighting terror with terror? With this behaviour you would give up your western and moral values. I defeat this.

[nahimov]

The war in Iraq has everything to do with the war on terror.. now. Yeah.. the argument of whether it did in the first place will continue to stink up these forums for quite a while.. but whether the war on terror is being fought in Iraq right now is pretty obvious. It is indeed.

Basically, my problem with America as a culture right now is that we are treating this war as if we deserve to lose. Blaming the government seems to be enough justification to let the military walk away after beating the snot out of terrorists, insurgents, and all manner murderers and criminals in Iraq yet still being called failures. Doing what is right is less a priority since we can blame our government for it's poor leadership.

If some dumbass is talking on the phone while driving at 80mph on the freeway and ends up rolling his $50,000 SUV into the ditch.. do we simply drive by because it's his own fault? My opinion of America today looks a lot that way.

Now.. I don't just mean to blame American culture for this.. but the government and the military as well didn't bother to risk asking the American public to shoulder any of this burden. A professional military's pride won't let us accept another draft, and a gang of inept yes men wouldn't risk losing public favor on an unpopular war.

It seems that it is obvious to you why we have to fight in Iraq but it is not obvious to most of Americans. To me personally I don't think leaving Iraq would mean any danger to us. 9/11 happened because US intelligence was asleep at the wheel. We are not being attacked here not because we are fighting in Iraq but because finally intelligence services are doing what they are supposed to. If we leave Iraq it would be the same as leaving Veitnam, meaning nothing bad would happen. And to be honest I think majority of US shares my opinion (at least that is how I interprit poll and election results).

[shocker1]

Fighting terror with terror? With this behaviour you would give up your western and moral values. I defeat this.
Well handing out weapons and glad handing with Islamists did not work either. Which we still do! You will not find much sympathy for those in Gitmo in the US for sure in my neck of the woods. Right or wrong thats just the way it is.

The big mistake was not lableing them POW's and granting rights accordingly and hold the bastards till the war is over or hell freezes over. Now we are in a fix with it.I will accept the negative implications in lue of keeping terrorists and those who fight against our troops locked away. It is not a moral thing with me it is who they are and what they will do when released.

As far as freedom in the States, I would say people have never been so free to do anything they want. I can sure think of more restrictive times past and better examples of a police State in America. I mean we have not rounded up Muslims yet or Arabs. I hope that never happens.

Back to topic I personaly have sacrficed nothing for this war. I have two cousins in the military now. One in Korea and the other in Iraq with the Marines. It is then my duty to do my daily job to the best of my ability to keep up the home front and support the troops, the mission they are dying for and avoid those who undermine the war and the President for political gain.

[WARPIG]

You know why Gitmo is criticized and what I mean. Only there the inmates are kept without being proven guilty = no justice. That´s not what the US used to stand for.


I don't think your intent was to flame this thread.. but this arguement in the minutia really isn't proving anything. However I'll respond.

Gitmo is just another one of those circumstances that no one had a plan for. Most of the issue with Gitmo was driven by liberal sharpshooting of the US and war critics. Although logical minds concede there is no human rights crime nor any torture going on there, the authority in which terrorists are held is in question. Terrorists recognize no law, follow no doctrine, and recognize no authority. Yet, the US is expected to apply some form of law, doctrine, or authority while handling them. So, we are painted as some great evil for holding terrorist alive while trying to get intel from them as opposed to simply slaughtering them in combat. We could easily capture, torture, and kill them once we have the intel we want without ever bringing them near Gitmo. All this could be done in the black with no one to know it ever happened. Yet the US lets the whole world know where the terrorist are being held and allows Gitmo to be scrutinized under a microscope. No matter the effort to be transparent in dealing with such an enemy, the US still endures the negativity and criticism.
Now if we can relate this topic to this thread then I don't mind discussing this further, but if you simply feel a need to respond, maybe another discussion would be better suited.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

You know why Gitmo is criticized and what I mean. Only there the inmates are kept without being proven guilty = no justice. That´s not what the US used to stand for.

Sigh. Do you mean like during WWII when we had thousands of POWs detained with no civil trial? Or when we detained/imprisoned people with no trial during the 1917 flu pandemic? Or when we rounded up all the Japanese Americans on the West coast and put them in camps? Or when we suspended habeas corpus imprisoned people for free speech during the Civil War? Or when we adopted a "take no prisoners" policy in the Pacific after being butchered one too many times by Japanese faking surrender? The US stands for a lot of things - one of them is fair play. If the enemy plays nice, so do we. We have all kinds of conventions in place guaranteeing our conduct when fighting those who wear a uniform and who follow the rules of war. But if they don't, we aren't obliged to provide them any more than minimum guarantees of safe treatment.

[vulpine]

It seems that it is obvious to you why we have to fight in Iraq but it is not obvious to most of Americans. To me personally I don't think leaving Iraq would mean any danger to us. 9/11 happened because US intelligence was asleep at the wheel. We are not being attacked here not because we are fighting in Iraq but because finally intelligence services are doing what they are supposed to. If we leave Iraq it would be the same as leaving Veitnam, meaning nothing bad would happen. And to be honest I think majority of US shares my opinion (at least that is how I interprit poll and election results).

The Intelligent services were asleep yes, but is that also the reason why the first trade center attack happened? Is that the reason why the USS Cole was bombed? Is that the reason why aN islamic fundumentalist killed CIA emplye's in Langley VA.? Is lack of intelligence the reason why the Marine barracks was bomed in Beruit KILLING 241 American Marine and 40 French soldiers? That is a weak ass comment saying the US was attacked soley because the intelligent services were asleep. THE REASON WAS ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISM!!!!!!!!!

[Weasel]

Now if we can relate this topic to this thread then I don't mind discussing this further, but if you simply feel a need to respond, maybe another discussion would be better suited.

I will respond to your statement. If it´s not suitable for this thread please delete. But my point is that the biggest possible sacrifice (your topic) is to loose freedom and I think this happens in the US.

No one would care if the US intels lock away those beheading, car-bombing terrorist-scum but the inmates of Gitmo aren´t terrorists until proven guilty. That´s one of our principles and we should stick to them no matter who we judge about. Even the most evil child molester has the right to stand in front of a court and to have a lawyer. If these principles are violated we have lost freedom. I hope you understand what I mean. And now I stop it. ;)

[vulpine]

In keeping with the thread. I have sacrificed a year spent in Iraq.

[AZRON]

In keeping with the thread. I have sacrificed a year spent in Iraq.

Thank you !

[Skutatos]

Nothing happened when we pulled out of south vietnam only if you think that south vietnamese lives meant nothing.

[nahimov]

The Intelligent services were asleep yes, but is that also the reason why the first trade center attack happened? Is that the reason why the USS Cole was bombed? Is that the reason why aN islamic fundumentalist killed CIA emplye's in Langley VA.? Is lack of intelligence the reason why the Marine barracks was bomed in Beruit KILLING 241 American Marine and 40 French soldiers? That is a weak ass comment saying the US was attacked soley because the intelligent services were asleep. THE REASON WAS ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISM!!!!!!!!!

So the answer is to attack the most secular country in the middle east?

[nahimov]

Nothing happened when we pulled out of south vietnam only if you think that south vietnamese lives meant nothing.

If US pulled out earlier a lot more lives would be saved.

[vulpine]

So the answer is to attack the most secular country in the middle east?


NO!!! You can't blame a whole population for what a few crazy wacko's did.

[nahimov]

NO!!! You can't blame a whole population for what a few crazy wacko's did.

My point exactly. We don't need to be in Iraq to be safer. US population will not be presuaded to sacrifice anything for Iraq so you can't really expect them to. If not for Iraq, war on terror would not require a lot of sacrifices at all.

[ibstolidude]

If we leave Iraq it would be the same as leaving Veitnam, meaning nothing bad would happen. Yeah, it could be the same as leaving Afghanistan to it's own (and neighbors') devices, like we did a decade+ ago. What bad could happen.......oh yeah...nevermind.

[Gman3ID]

Your absolutely right, vent,vent,vent. Why are civilians (including myself now) not made a concious effort to fuel, supply, grant, extend our will to to a victorious outcome? Why dont we unify?Why because we sometimes we are what they say we are. We get up in the morning not worrying about whether were going to get hit or not, but if we are going to stop for coffee or not and we can't really decide because we let our fat arsess sleep till 8 oclock.
We watch TV, listen to our Ipod, play video games, (some of which I thouroghly enjoy) and every thing else that distracts us from securing our own future. We are in a generational war. We cannot afford to sit by and let an oil junky and gov't contractor run around like idiots. We have payed a dear price, we are doing exactly what the wanted us to do. We are divided, we have lost our moral bearing, we have abused our own civil rights, and are bogged down in a war that could spread any day. The question is where do find common ground from within?
I have sacrificed a few yr's with the infantry, A few dollars to benefit wounded vets ie Homes for our troops.com, and support family in al Anbar.

[nahimov]

Yeah, it could be the same as leaving Afghanistan to it's own (and neighbors') devices, like we did a decade+ ago. What bad could happen.......oh yeah...nevermind.


When did we leave Afghanistan? Did I miss a war or something? I though USSR fought in Afghanistan and US helped mujahedins?

[ibstolidude]

When did we leave Afghanistan? Did I miss a war or something? I though USSR fought in Afghanistan and US helped mujahedins?
Well there you go....

[Techmarine1228]

Why are civilians (including myself now) not made a concious effort to fuel, supply, grant, extend our will to to a victorious outcome? Why dont we unify?

I have asked myself these same questions many times. We've even had a weeklong debate in one of my classes over American ignorance to foreign affairs and why most Americans just don't care about the political system, civil rights, etc. My belief is that we, as a society, think that we are losing a war, which you would probably think if all you did was read articles about deaths and IEDs. We arent exposed to the positive side of the war, because that doesn't sell. In my opinion, the media and politics run to maximize their ratings and votes. Because society is exposed to the negative, it no longer want to support the war, and it tries to put the blame on another party so that people feel better about themselves and dont have to take responsibility. In our case, we are putting the blame on different political ideologies, splitting us apart. Our country will not unify because that would mean that there would be no one else to point the fault of the war and it's problems at. If the left and right work together, they won't have other people

But hey, I'm just a crazy college kid. :)

[ag05]

I have asked myself these same questions many times. We've even had a weeklong debate in one of my classes over American ignorance to foreign affairs and why most Americans just don't care about the political system, civil rights, etc. My belief is that we, as a society, think that we are losing a war, which you would probably think if all you did was read articles about deaths and IEDs. We arent exposed to the positive side of the war, because that doesn't sell. In my opinion, the media and politics run to maximize their ratings and votes. Because society is exposed to the negative, it no longer want to support the war, and it tries to put the blame on another party so that people feel better about themselves and dont have to take responsibility. In our case, we are putting the blame on different political ideologies, splitting us apart. Our country will not unify because that would mean that there would be no one else to point the fault of the war and it's problems at. If the left and right work together, they won't have other people

But hey, I'm just a crazy college kid. :)

I'm beginning to get the opinion that, as a society, the US (and the West) will no longer allow itself to win a war. Rather than fight to victory, we now strive to fight to a half-arsed negotiated treaty that may or may not last. After all, in order to truely win, someone must lose. And we've been so ingrained with this trophies-for-everyone, no losers mentality that we are willing to sacrifice our goals to keep from shameing the vanquished.

[Spinal Tap 84]

I agree with Warpig that the average American civilian (myself included) has not sacrificed anything for the war effort. We have spent quite a bit of money on the endeavour, but that does not have a direct impact on my daily life. Sure the war has had short term effects and there will surely be some long term effects that are yet to be determined, but there is nothing to remind Americans that they are in a state of war except for the news (which most people do not read/watch anyways). During WWII EVERY American was affected by the war. You served, worked in a factory supporting the war effort, bought war bonds, planted a victory garden, or sacrificed luxuries due to rationing. Everywhere you went there were constant reminders that we are at war and that loosing is not an option.

It seems today that due to the loss of our traditional values that made this country great, that there is a growing rift between those who serve and those who do not. Our society has gone soft. Our society tells you that the most important person in the world is you. The media glorifies worthless celebrities like Paris Hilton instead of shedding light on people who make a difference. Those of you that serve (thank you by the way) do not buy into that garbage, and it seems that there is an ever dwindling number of people who are willing to make personal sacrifices. I mean most people here think a bad day is when you spill your Starbucks on yourself driving to work.

Due to the extreme differences in values and lifestyles it is much harder for civilians to relate to what our men and woman in uniform give up for their country. I think this is why a lot of veterans (and correct me if I am wrong) have a difficult time adjusting to the civilian world after serving overseas. When they come home, they are surrounded by people who have NO idea as to what they have experienced. Life went on for those people back home as if nothing was different (for the most part) while the soldier/marine/sailor/airman was in constant danger for a year or longer. I read somewhere that it’s almost as if we were outsourcing courage. A brave few bare the burden of a whole nation.

It isn't all bad news, however. There are lots of civilians volunteering to pack gift packages for the troops and work with various charities. Gary Sinise is just one name that comes to mind right away, but they are a minority (at least from my perspective).

Sorry for the rant, but I was wondering if anyone agrees with me on this. Then again I could just be crazy...

[Spinal Tap 84]

I'm beginning to get the opinion that, as a society, the US (and the West) will no longer allow itself to win a war. Rather than fight to victory, we now strive to fight to a half-arsed negotiated treaty that may or may not last. After all, in order to truely win, someone must lose. And we've been so ingrained with this trophies-for-everyone, no losers mentality that we are willing to sacrifice our goals to keep from shameing the vanquished.

I agree 100%. We need to get in touch with our rugged individualism roots.

EDIT: Sorry for double post!

[madjack]

I'm 53. I left the Army in 1982.
On September 11 I asked God to let me do something "more active" than running simulations at Ft. Leavenworth.
I've been in Afghanistan as a contractor since January 06. I'm not out humping the mountains but do feel there's been some sacrifice involved.

It doesn't surprise me that people back home are living their lives as if nothing is going on. The president told them to go to Disneyworld.

[Spinal Tap 84]

I'm 53. I left the Army in 1982.
On September 11 I asked God to let me do something "more active" than running simulations at Ft. Leavenworth.
I've been in Afghanistan as a contractor since January 06. I'm not out humping the mountains but do feel there's been some sacrifice involved.

It doesn't surprise me that people back home are living their lives as if nothing is going on. The president told them to go to Disneyworld.

Amazing stuff! First you serve in the Army, then help train our men and women in uniform, and then you volunteer to go to Afghanistan for well over a year! Thank you for your life long dedication to serving this country.

[usmcprincipal]

I think it's safe to say there is little feeling of ownership or responsibility for Iraq or the Global War On Terror for most of the citizens of the United States.

Few Americans have been directly touched by the war and even fewer have been asked to make a personal sacrifice. There will be a down the road fiscal accounting for the expenditures in Iraq and around the world, but few Americans think that far into the future...(at least if our savings habits are to be believed).

I believe most Americans are apathetic about the war in Iraq and ambivalent about the more generalized War On Terror. I'm currently a teacher and retired Marine with a son on active duty with the Marine Corps. All my fellow teachers respect my service and many express their appreciation and concern whenever my son is deployed. However, and it's purely anecdotal, for most of my colleagues there is a disconnect between their lives and the war in Iraq. The war is an occasional soundbite, grisly photograph, or a non-descript article culled from a newspaper. Iraq is a sometimes disagreeable intrusion into their busy lives, which are humming along as if the nation were at peace. Most want the country to exit Iraq as quickly as possible, but they're generally unable to articulate rational reasons for reaching this conclusion.

Despite a deep and overriding respect for the military, there is generally no feeling of kinship with those in the armed forces. It's a small (relative to the population), professional force with a shrinking pool of veterans. Many can only relate a grandfather or great uncle, who served in World War II, Korea, or Vietnam. Few can speak of a son, daughter, brother, sister, or cousin currently serving in the military or recently seperated from the armed forces. At best many might know about the kid down the street or a friend of a friend, who chose to enlist.

I think for most life has gradually idled to pre-9/11 days. There's an overriding sense of safety and distance from the threat of terrorism. It's more an abstract idea than a looming reality. Few view Iraq as part of a dangerous world many of whose inhabitants wish for the destruction of western society and to a lesser extent capitalism. I think many view the World Trade Center bombing and the Pentagon attack as an aberration and view the oceans as some sort of insurmountable barrier despite history telling us otherwise.

The price of gas has been the most affecting sacrifice; however, I think it's attributed more to greedy oil companies and hidden agendas, rather than a necessary reduction in the good life.

In closing, while I sometimes believe we're a soft society, we're also a busy society. People must continue to earn a living, further their educations, raise their kids, and pay mortgages. I don't think most people view the war so much as a burden, but as a source of frustration and loss without the hope of victory.

[madjack]

I agree with a lot of what you say, but feel that if there was a coherent effort on the part of the administration to involve people, things would be a little different.
But let's face it, the USA has not been at war since VJ day. The military has, but not the nation. Ever since Eisenhower made his speech about the dangers of the military-industrial complex, the nation has been increasingly uninvolved.

[WARPIG]

One might be justified in believing that we (the US) have earned the right to get a bit soft and spoiled as a nation. I can agree to that. But, again, strategically speaking.. our nation didn't manage to galvanize toward a common goal. Although militarily successful (to no ones surprise) our leaders, government, and society failed to act as a nation united. Liberal loons did as expected and managed to undermine any and every success while looking for failure in every thing the government or the military did. Right wing kooks took the opportunity to push further right and dig in. Their single minded arrogance masked in patriotism. Yet, most of us fall somewhere in the middle. Still, we found a way to get sucked into basically doing nothing and risking nothing. What did we really lose? Our rep? Meanwhile, we martyr several thousand of our real patriots and heros for a cause no one else will lift a finger to win, and seem to have increased our enemies.

[remo williams]

We've forgotten our way and now we will pay for it. Ever heard "The more you get, the more you forget?" We've forgotten what it's like to be under a real threat, and thinking that automation and smart weapons are a cure all. We've become afraid of the thought of totally elimating a threat, lest we be seen as lawless genocidal maniacs. Instead we've become a consumer nation in place of being the innovative,producing nation that got us here. And in doing so, we've let many of those we consume from, have access to the entities which regulate our lives. Our Gov't. You're seeing it now with a do more with less approach, instead of the too much is never enough way that won us WWI and WW2. We've not learned to integrate the two to our advantage because things are more or less based on efficiency and profit. Instead of what is really good for the nation in case of any future eventuality. We've become a nation business of sorts.

[Calanen]

I tried to enlist at the San Diego recruiting station for the Army in downtown San Diego. I just confused the recruiters though, who said they would take it higher up the chain and get back to me. They never did.

[that_one_guy]

IMHO, there were 2 wars, the war with iraq and the global war on terror. The war in iraq, IMO ended when Saddam's regime was ousted from power.The US and coalition forces are now in the long and tedious process of reconstructing the decimated infrastructure and esatblishing a legitimate governmental power that would fold in on itself when the US leaves. That being said, IMO, the fighting currently in Iraq is part of the global war on terror.

The average American citizen fails to realize this and the very important fact that this war is asymetrical in nature. There are no clear battle lines, or hell even a face to use as a poster boy for the enemy. Insurgents don't exactly play by the rules causing this to be a very very difficult situation to say the least. Average people also fail to recognize that this global war on terrorism spans various countries and involves other countries than just the US.

Warpig is right, what has the average US citizen sacrificed for the war? Most havent sacrificed anything at all, but many have sacrificed mothers, daughters, sons, fathers, and best friends. I for one, have known too many people that have given their lives in OIF and the war on terror. As for me doing my part, I'm stateside, defending my friends in the military from liberal asshats that call them "baby killers" and "killing machines."

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

I've sacrificed personal freedoms in the name of freedom.

[LRPV]

I've sacrificed personal freedoms in the name of freedom.

I think Warpig is referring to what his countrymen have sacrified...or otherwise.

If you are still wearing that PVC skirt, you have all the freedoms you need.p-)

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Ah right.

You must admit the whole thing is full of irony though.

[Rictor]

Does no one else find the arguement that the United States needs more resources to fight the "War on Terror", therefore the population needs to tighten its belt, utterly preposterous? If $600,000,000,000 a year isn't adequate, no amount of money is.

The insurgencies in both Iraq and Afghanistan are fighting with old AKs, homemade IEDs and a fraction of the active personnel that the coalition has. If the world's largest, best funded, most advanced, best trained military force is not capable of defeating that, do you really think that people buying war bonds is going to make any difference?

The way I see it, the American public is sacrificing - every man, woman and child pays about $2000 every year to fund the US military. The fact that this has become institutionalized, and is therefore taken for granted, does not change the fact.

[annihilation]

I agree we the general public do not sacrifice. The congress and its members do not sacrifice. The administration doesn't sacrifice. The personnel in the military and their families sacrifice over and over and over.

But then again we wouldn't have these types of conversations if we didn't make so many mistakes in the years after the invasion. People have been loosing faith over our leadership running the war because of these constant mistakes and constant BS rhetoric of "stay the course". Granted I lacked faith in Iraq from the beginning, saw it is a misdirection of resources, money, personnel that could have been better spent in afghanistan.

But slowly im turning around and having some hope for the operation. Considering now that the administration is willing to make changes and replace leaders with others with new ideas. Nice to see their feet held over the fire and to hear them say "give us more time to let this plan work" instead of "stay the course". So I am actually starting to support our en devours there because I think things might be done right this time.

[Gluten]

Sacrifice nothing....

Protect our Constitutional Rights!!!

If we lose our rights, the enemy has won.

i dont get that, constitutional rights... what do u mean with "protect", im not trying to flame or anything but can u please explaine for me what u mean?

[annihilation]

i dont get that, constitutional rights... what do u mean with "protect", im not trying to flame or anything but can u please explaine for me what u mean?

I think he is talking about the patriot act. Under the guise of fighting the war on terror, the federal government has new more power rights in investigating and searching individuals.

[Gothjod]

Sure the war has had short term effects and there will surely be some long term effects that are yet to be determined, but there is nothing to remind Americans that they are in a state of war except for the news (which most people do not read/watch anyways). During WWII EVERY American was affected by the war. You served, worked in a factory supporting the war effort, bought war bonds, planted a victory garden, or sacrificed luxuries due to rationing. Everywhere you went there were constant reminders that we are at war and that loosing is not an option.

It seems today that due to the loss of our traditional values that made this country great, that there is a growing rift between those who serve and those who do not. Our society has gone soft. Our society tells you that the most important person in the world is you. The media glorifies worthless celebrities like Paris Hilton instead of shedding light on people who make a difference. Those of you that serve (thank you by the way) do not buy into that garbage, and it seems that there is an ever dwindling number of people who are willing to make personal sacrifices. I mean most people here think a bad day is when you spill your Starbucks on yourself driving to work.

Due to the extreme differences in values and lifestyles it is much harder for civilians to relate to what our men and woman in uniform give up for their country. I think this is why a lot of veterans (and correct me if I am wrong) have a difficult time adjusting to the civilian world after serving overseas. When they come home, they are surrounded by people who have NO idea as to what they have experienced. Life went on for those people back home as if nothing was different (for the most part) while the soldier/marine/sailor/airman was in constant danger for a year or longer. I read somewhere that it’s almost as if we were outsourcing courage. A brave few bare the burden of a whole nation.

It isn't all bad news, however. There are lots of civilians volunteering to pack gift packages for the troops and work with various charities. Gary Sinise is just one name that comes to mind right away, but they are a minority (at least from my perspective).

Well Thats pretty much what I'm thinking. Many things (for good and for bad) have changed since WWII and I hope we could get them back :-(

Matt

[Durandal]

Me and a couple of the local business owners have emergency plans in the works to help neighbors in case of a natural or manmade event since the local or federal government seems incapable of doing it.

I mean, after all, we are CONSTANTLY under the threat of FOREIGN attack, right?

That said, not too sure how you can sacrifice in a time of war when no one is asking you to or providing you a way to do it. I am not giving my spare steel to a corporation that is going to profit from it. I already garden and provide a chunk of my own dietary requirements between that and wild game during the year. Even if I wanted to, who is going to take it and how is it going to be used?

This is not World War II.

I think that I can disapprove of the cost of this war without having actually sacrificed ANYTHING at this moment. I see the sacrifices, the true sacrifices, coming 2 generations from now...hell, maybe even my children will see it.

Oh, I did stop buying ammo in large quantities so our troops in the Gulf can have more federal 5.56 and 7.62x51...well them and the hoarders too...

[seraosha]

We here on this forum might be special, but I think the majority of Americans have forgotten the lessons of September 11, 2001.

I hope another lesson doesn't come around again, but I think it might.

[Gluten]

I think he is talking about the patriot act. Under the guise of fighting the war on terror, the federal government has new more power rights in investigating and searching individuals.

okay, thanx

[Durandal]

I've sacrificed personal freedoms in the name of freedom.

Well said my friend, well said...

And drips with irony.

[Wodan]

I sacrifice my black afghan, red lebanese and morrocan in order to not support the terrorists, and buy columbian, dutch or homegrown german instead

[jedisponge]

Unbelievable.

Some of you guys talk about "Remember 9/11 and its lessons", at the same time saying that in general Americans know nothing about the war and have not made a direct sacrifice to help the "war effort", throwing criticism at the American public for that. That screams of hypocrisy. What do most of you know about what people that were hurt and killed in the 9/11 attacks, other than news and soundbites? What do you know about the construction workers, policemen, firemen, EMS workers who now have health problems as a result of them working at "Ground Zero?" Going along the lines of argument that some people are presenting about what the "average" American knows about Iraq, unless you were actually affected by the attacks or know someone affected by it, YOU KNOW NOTHING. So I ask whoever used such lines in their arguments to stop, because it is idiotic and moronic, and is an insult the Armed Services and your fellow American. There's more to the

Yes, Americans are going to malls, going to ballgames, going to movies. What do some of you want them to do about the war? Have everyone able join the military? You would then have some obscenely large army, which has to be trained, equipped and fed, ready to fight the "War on Terror" in theatres such as Afghanistan and Iraq. Who will provide the finances for this? The government, which derives its resources from taxes and tariffs and whatnot. But now that there is no one left to work in the civilian world, the government won't occur the tax revenue to support such a venture. We would be screwed.

Don't you realize that if every American stopped buying "luxury A" or "necessity B", the U.S. would lose its financial power, and as an extension, its military power? As a result of that, we would have no say international politics and would not be able to continue with our policy against Terrorism. So the arguments that Americans are stupid for living life like there's no war going on, again, isn't founded on the best of ideas.

Now lets go back to the actual situation as of now. An excruciatingly large amount of funds have been spent, 6 Billion, in Iraq alone if I recall correctly. $6,000,000,000.00. That's right, 9 zeros. Let that number sink in. Now, lets go back to economics. Opportunity costs are what you lose by committing one action. Think about the opportunity costs of spending 6 billion dollars. Remember now, 9 zeros.

Now I can't speak for the American public, but I'm just thinking about the conditions that some people in the U.S. are living in right now, and some cloudy future that many will be facing soon, and I just imagine what that 6 billion dollars could've done. I'm sure that many, many more Americans are thinking the same thing. If you think that Americans just want out of the war simply because "war is bad", I would venture to say that you have your thoughts misplaced. Don't think the average citizen in the country is ignorant to that number and that idea. Not to mention, as much as I want the Iraqis to have a better life, shouldn't you want your more immediate neighbors, ie across the street, or a person in some less than ideal neighborhood in your local city to have a shot at something better first?

Iraqi Freedom and its ongoing operations did not have as strong of "justness", to use the term somewhat offhandedly, as Operation Enduring Freedom. Many people in foresight, and now many more in hindsight did not think our operations in Iraq were the best in terms of allocating our resources. Now that we're in on it, there's nothing else we can do that will allow us to derive some benefit other than making sure the current Iraqi government consolidates its power, and that the country doesn't fall apart into a swarming, pissy mess and perhaps throw the rest of the region into a larger swarming, pissy mess. We got ourselves into what is now a big mess, and if we want to derive anything out of the situation, such as a strong U.S. supporter in the region (that actually has some strategic benefit for us other than say... Israel), we need to make sure the Iraqi government succeeds and becomes a strong country in the region.

P.S., I'm just curious. But how would you, Weasel, know anything about our freedoms in the U.S., being from Germany? Do you have any actual experience in losing freedoms that Americans seem to be experiencing over there? Or are you getting all that from literature in Germany? I'm not really a supporter of the Patriot Act, but... I'm just curious.

[Calanen]

If US pulled out earlier a lot more lives would be saved.

Not many lives were saved in Cambodia when the international community would not intervene. Or Rhwanda.

[Calanen]

I think he is talking about the patriot act. Under the guise of fighting the war on terror, the federal government has new more power rights in investigating and searching individuals.

Some very interesting parts to the Patriot Act. One is that it can get US citizens on the boards of foreign banks to do certain things at the request of the US government.

[zonk]

i have sacrificed time, money and more than a couple years of my life fighting overseas..

my friends lost their lives for the country, i feel what i have gave is not enough by a long shot

[Bia]

Where is the sacrifice that the American people have grown tired of in support of this war on terror?

The lower middle class and the working poor are sacrificing many things.... much much more than those in a slightly higer class.

Everything costs more... many good decent working poor have lost insurance and ability for family to afford even regular dentist visits... when fuel/everthing goes up the dentist that makes 200k a year is of course going to raise his rates and the lower hard working classes continue to suffer more.

there are litterally dozens and dozens of examples along these lines.

Yay King George and trickle down bull$hit.

[Nano]

The lower middle class and the working poor are sacrificing many things.... much much more than those in a slightly higer class.

Everything costs more... many good decent working poor have lost insurance and ability for family to afford even regular dentist visits... when fuel/everthing goes up the dentist that makes 200k a year is of course going to raise his rates and the lower hard working classes continue to suffer more.

there are litterally dozens and dozens of examples along these lines.

Yay King George and trickle down bull$hit.

The opposite can also be said about the benefits of the war to the working class. There has been many jobs and companies saved that if war had not been waged many people would have been out of jobs. This in part would be true because of bad management which the war helps cover since there is never a lack of orders that need to be filled and makes things look good on paper for those companies. What you describe is an entirely different issue aside and is almost entirely unrelated whether the war had been waged or not in the case of Iraq. I agree that the higher class is banking a greater net benefit from the war and sacrificing less for those benefits. In all honesty however, very few have sacrificed anything (nor have they been asked to) in comparison if there had not been a war to sacrifice anything for. Personally I was willing to join the Marines to help, but was not eligible. I still wanted to serve even though my personal opinion at the time and (still is) that some of those in leadership were lacking in their abilities to lead, but wanted to share the burden with everyone else who were serving.

[Hollis]

Are all these factors a product of the war. We can blame even our toilets not flushing on the war, but is it true. Inflation has been around a long time. Devaluation of the Dollar on the international market, nothing new there. Late 80's Dollar dropped 40% compared to the European currency at the time.

Oil market, Well they have used what ever excuse to charge more. Most of the higher prices is because of lack of new refineries and upgrading old ones, can't blame that on the war. China increase in energy needs is not because of the war.


Some items are dropping in prices. Katrina cause the rise in construction materials.

There definitely no shortage of political Bull Scat because of the war.

[Skutatos]

i have sacrificed time, money and more than a couple years of my life fighting overseas..

my friends lost their lives for the country, i feel what i have gave is not enough by a long shot

Its people like you who make this country great, thank you for your service.

[1652HCU]

If the world's largest, best funded, most advanced, best trained military force is not capable of defeating that, do you really think that people buying war bonds is going to make any difference?

Which military is that? :-)

"world's largest" = China
"best funded" = US
"most advanced" = Germany (The US is buying equipment from a third world country to counter IEDs)
"best trained military force" = isn't that the Vatican Gaurd, UK or Israeli military?

Sacrifice isn’t always measured by fiscal/physical or even tangible means, when we sacrifice the very things that define us as human, then maybe the price is becoming too steep.

[annihilation]

I sacrifice my patience with administration and their lack of doing anything right.

[Lokos]

The American people didn't lose 3000 people to the war.. those numbers would have been lost without a war. (Check the stats.) Even if they were more significant, those losses are military.. not the publics.

I haven't read a large chunk of the thread, so forgive me if this has already been covered:

Look, I'm all for the 'stay the course' approach, but I find this statement strange, WARPIG.

These 3,300 individuals weren't born in the military. They all had families. These families, I can only presume, aren't military property. Therefore, the part of American society with loved ones lost in the Iraq or the Afghanistan campaigns are certainly entitled to feel a sense of their loss, and are most certainly entitled to question the justification for that loss.

Volunteer military or not, there is over a million families in America with ties to the military through one or more serving relatives. Do they have the right to question the use of something putting the people closest to them in the line of fire? Assuredly.

A hypothetical response to this is that they knew what they were getting into. This is irrelevant. A Zulu king once marched an entire impi of his warriors over a cliff, just to prove their discipline. Does the military have a license to spend lives in any manner imagined, according to whim? Is policy beyond reproach? Especially the policy of a civilian government?

Most members of these boards who are either serving, hoping to serve or are admirers of the military are indignant over the protests of the 'peacemongers'. Professional pride, I would venture, is one of the major culprits. An earnest belief in the correctness of the Bush administration's policy can also lead to this reaction. There are, of course, also the gits who just love war and see it as the ultimate means of conflict resolution; balking at all others in the process. An equivalence between the military and government policy is established, wherein the questioning of the latter equates to the questioning of the former. But this is a misplaced concern.

'Have the American people sacrificed too much?' is the question at hand. The answer is simple: if the American people feel they have sacrificed too much, then they have. A goal is only worth the price you are willing to pay to attain it. If you're not, it's not worth your effort, your blood, or your sweat. These same people have a right to question government policy.

Indignation about the extent of the sacrifice is irrelevant. If they feel it's too much, then it is. That's it.

Regards,
Lokos

[WARPIG]

I haven't read a large chunk of the thread, so forgive me if this has already been covered:

Look, I'm all for the 'stay the course' approach, but I find this statement strange, WARPIG.

These 3,300 individuals weren't born in the military. They all had families. These families, I can only presume, aren't military property. Therefore, the part of American society with loved ones lost in the Iraq or the Afghanistan campaigns are certainly entitled to feel a sense of their loss, and are most certainly entitled to question the justification for that loss.

Volunteer military or not, there is over a million families in America with ties to the military through one or more serving relatives. Do they have the right to question the use of something putting the people closest to them in the line of fire? Assuredly.

A hypothetical response to this is that they knew what they were getting into. This is irrelevant. A Zulu king once marched an entire impi of his warriors over a cliff, just to prove their discipline. Does the military have a license to spend lives in any manner imagined, according to whim? Is policy beyond reproach? Especially the policy of a civilian government?

Most members of these boards who are either serving, hoping to serve or are admirers of the military are indignant over the protests of the 'peacemongers'. Professional pride, I would venture, is one of the major culprits. An earnest belief in the correctness of the Bush administration's policy can also lead to this reaction. There are, of course, also the gits who just love war and see it as the ultimate means of conflict resolution; balking at all others in the process. An equivalence between the military and government policy is established, wherein the questioning of the latter equates to the questioning of the former. But this is a misplaced concern.

'Have the American people sacrificed too much?' is the question at hand. The answer is simple: if the American people feel they have sacrificed too much, then they have. A goal is only worth the price you are willing to pay to attain it. If you're not, it's not worth your effort, your blood, or your sweat. These same people have a right to question government policy.

Indignation about the extent of the sacrifice is irrelevant. If they feel it's too much, then it is. That's it.

Regards,
Lokos


I understand you didn't read the whole thread.. but my "question" wasn't have the American people sacrificed too much.

My question was what have they sacrificed. I know that military personnel and thier families have been doing their part. I was looking more at what the factor of the obvious lack of public contribution play on the current war. Military stategists and historians have made note of this and despite the cultural and political disconnect that has come with it, the strategic implications that have changed the outcome of the war are pretty noticeable.

[Mastermind]

No home front sacrifice...no "war".

We could as easily ask "What have we sacrificed for the "War on Drugs" or the "War on Cancer" or the "War on Poverty"!

GBII burned a very expensive and needed set of bridges when this thing first started. He acted foolishly and squandered our spirit and defiance in the face of a terrible and still threateneing enemy.

Now.....Here are a dozen of my thoughts on the subject...

1) We have no real enemy except some ghostly "insurgents".

2) We have no real goal...like "Peace in our time" or "Freedom for All"....

3) We have no war slogans to encourage us, like..."He fights to keep you free...you can fight to keep him armed!"
4) There are no war songs to bolster our courage....
5) We have nothing rationed...like one of the very weapons we could and should be using is a drastic reduction of our over seas oil dependancy...we could cripple the enemy money supply if we just reduced our usage of oil...so posters and ads, like..."Is this trip really necessary?" and "Save gas, give a patriot a ride."...showing a driver picking up a walking worker.

6) Terms like "Patriotism" and "Defend America" are practically forbidden...they are considered ultra "right wing" and fanatical.

7) Kids are not being encouraged to go toward a military career...in fact, just the opposite, recruiters are being banned on campuses...a kid even draws a picture of a gun and he is expelled for violent thoughts.

8) No movies of our brave warriors are being shown...instead, movies of old wars, like Band of Brothers and Ghost Talkers are, but are always in the slanted view of "War never solved anything"

9) The way of the "enemy" (whover that is now) is always kept practically sacred...defended on campuses and in the entertainment industry...and touted as something just and righteous in our very own government.

10) Church groups and even government funded lawyers (ACLU) are out to defame our warrior class..and when they do, there is hardly any public outcry or action against them.

11) Many of our represenatives in congress slander our President and even call him "liar" and "Hitler" all while he tries to lead our troops and encourage our citizenry. Some even go to encourage the "enemy" in their homeland and return to applause in the halls of congress. They are even re-elected!!!!

12) We, as a people, have nothing better to do than bicker and whine about our personal petty grievances while our soldiers die and bleed.

War? This is no war. I don't even know what this is. But, whatever it is, it damn sure needs to change.