Anti-Americanism.

[theholeinthedonut]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6547881.stm

[Sharp]

anti french crap article
the brits are humiliated by their so called american friends and the only interesting thing they find is to try to **** the french ahah please ..

[Atlantic Friend]

I just love these articles. I do, really. The big bad French did this, they said that, they probably wrote something worse, and oh, don't we decent Britons shudder thinking about what the article did not dare say ?

I feel like that proverbial Jew who, before WW2, got a subscription to the Nazi tabloid Der Stürmer, and who told his friends, who asked him why he loved reading a newspaper accusing the Jews of corrupting nations, causing bad harvests, putting curses on Gentiles : "I like to read this because when I do I feel so powerful" !

;)

[theholeinthedonut]

Qed/cqfd :::::::::

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Seems reasonable enough to me. It's quite easy to see the lack of balance in these anti-US demonstrations. I grew up watching them during the cold war, when much of Europe's collective panties were in a twist not over the multitude of nuclear weapons aimed at them, but over the ones that defended them. Pretty much the same thing going on today - why should they protest AQ...who might actually strike back at them...when they can protest America who they know will do nothing? It's as if they're not actually concerned about achieving tangible results, but just trying to make themselves feel better by doing something...even if it makes no sense.

I posted this the other day but it bears repeating here. I came across it on Wiki when reading about a completely different subject;


Much of this interest was because of British antipathy to America. As one prominent writer explained, "The evil passions which 'Uncle Tom' gratified in England were not hatred or vengeance [of slavery], but national jealousy and national vanity. We have long been smarting under the conceit of America--we are tired of hearing her boast that she is the freest and the most enlightened country that the world has ever seen. Our clergy hate her voluntary system--our Tories hate her democrats--our Whigs hate her parvenus--our Radicals hate her litigiousness, her insolence, and her ambition. All parties hailed Mrs. Stowe as a revolter from the enemy."


It's from 1852. We humans are emotionally driven - and it's not surprising at all that emotion often takes the place of reason or logic. Of course Americans do the same thing....but apart from the silly flap of the French "action" (a word I have carefully chosen to replace a less palatable one) at the UNSC vote over Iraq, I can't remember them ever getting together en masse to protest any other nation.

>edit for irony< - I'm gonna correct myself - I've actually seen lots of demonstrations against nations inside the US...but they're all anti-US demonstrations too...so jackwaddedness apparently knows no national borders. p-)

[mas-36]

Laughable. Really, it's not much different of an arguement than those who attempt to equate anti-Israeli policies with anti-semitism. The same drivel here: Anti-American policies/anti-Bush = hatred of Americans. :roll:

Unfortunately for the BBC, many of it's journalists/reporters never did let go of the schoolyard mentality from their collective, but obviously recent childhood, and that mentality still applies.

Imagine had those 15 sailors/marines held in Iran been French? I seriously doubt there would have been anywhere near the same amount of concern for them in the US/UK press, but instead an endless barrage of anti-French jokes. Thats the difference between America bashing and French bashing.

[Digital Marine]

Az i zuzpected, iet iez ze french!

[2Sheds_Jackson]

I have yet to see any posts effectively de-bunking what the article says. There's a lot of "the BBC sucks" and "the article is stupid" but nothing addressing what it actually says with a cogent argument.

There is far more at work here than simple disagreement with US policy. When you burn US soldiers and our President in effigy the street, when you openly support those who have vowed to destroy us, when you claim that we are the source of all the world's problems as well as the solution to them - it has gone beyond civil disagreement and into hatred IMHO. To ignore that simple truth is to ignore reality. In all honesty, I think it's a bit of a reach to claim that Paris is the source of it - how could they possibly know that - but it's kind of hard to deny that it's a source of it.

[IronFinn]

No worries, when Finland takes its righfull position as the only superpower in the world these kind of articles will be all about anti-Finnishnes and US don´t need to worry about them anymore ;).

[mas-36]

There is far more at work here than simple disagreement with US policy. When you burn US soldiers and our President in effigy the street, when you openly support those who have vowed to destroy us, when you claim that we are the source of all the world's problems as well as the solution to them - it has gone beyond civil disagreement and into hatred IMHO. To ignore that simple truth is to ignore reality. In all honesty, I think it's a bit of a reach to claim that Paris is the source of it - how could they possibly know that - but it's kind of hard to deny that it's a source of it.

I agree, those are acts of anti-Americanism, but as far as "debunking" is concerned, I would like to see the same retrospectively. I have never heard of anything like burning efigies of US soldiers or the US president in the streets of Paris, nor have I ever seen/heard of anything which would be considered as voicing support for Al Qaeda coming from France. This is the kind of con-job story put forth by the likes of Bill O'Reilly and etc. to get people whipped up.

Indeed, I would contend that the worst of the anti-US soldier behaviour has either come from the middle east, or come from different areas of our very own USA. Paris is not Seattle, and France is not the Westboro Baptist Church.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Indeed, I would contend that the worst of the anti-US soldier behaviour has either come from the middle east, or come from different areas of our very own USA. Paris is not Seattle, and France is not the Westboro Baptist Church.

Well I can agree with that - like I said, there's plenty of rabid leftist anti-US sentiment right here at home. It's kind of funny that it comes from both sides - the loony left, and now from the extreme right with the Westboro freak shows. Can't please everybody k'know.

[mas-36]

Well I can agree with that - like I said, there's plenty of rabid leftist anti-US sentiment right here at home. It's kind of funny that it comes from both sides - the loony left, and now from the extreme right with the Westboro freak shows. Can't please everybody k'know.

True enough, although I'm not really sure how to classify the Westboro freaks. Extreme right? I'm not sure. David Duke and Illinois Nazis* are extreme right. Westboro folks are simply extreme wacko, if there is such a political spectrum.

*I can't get the Blues Brothers out of my head when I say Illinois Nazis. ;-)

[joe mama]

True enough, although I'm not really sure how to classify the Westboro freaks. Extreme right? I'm not sure. David Duke and Illinois Nazis* are extreme right. Westboro folks are simply extreme wacko, if there is such a political spectrum.

*I can't get the Blues Brothers out of my head when I say Illinois Nazis. ;-)

Those bums won their court case so they're marching today.

[AK-Lover]

Well I can't speak for the French, but I know why I dislike America and it's because it sticks it's nose in other countries business and leads wars driven by its military-industrial complex in the name of "Democracy and Freedom" For who? Not for me thats for sure, I wasn't too keen on having bombs dropped on my head either, while watching what kind of BS American tv stations and politicians talks about me and my country while killing my people and destroying our land for supposed humanitarian reasons <Bunch of BS
I think alot of Americans on this forum know why so many people hate them in the world, it's not like it's a secret

[Ordie]

Here's a NY Times article in re to a Pew Survey.

I still think the US is one of the greatest country. For a simple reason.

It is a place where anyone and everyone has a chance to achieve anything.

Many talk about Anti-americanism, yet we see lines of people outside each US Embassies and consulates hoping for a chance of a new life.

If these people do not have 'faith' in the US then who does?




June 14, 2006

Global Image of the U.S. Is Worsening, Survey Finds

NY Times

By BRIAN KNOWLTON (http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?ppds=bylL&v1=BRIAN KNOWLTON&fdq=19960101&td=sysdate&sort=newest&ac=BRIAN KNOWLTON&inline=nyt-per)
WASHINGTON, June 13 — As the war in Iraq continues for a fourth year, the global image of America has slipped further, even among people in some countries closely allied with the United States, a new opinion poll has found.
Favorable views of the United States dropped sharply over the past year in Spain, where only 23 percent said they had a positive opinion, down from 41 percent last year, according to the survey. It was done in 15 nations, including the United States, this spring by the Washington-based Pew Research Center (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/p/pew_research_center/index.html?inline=nyt-org).
Other countries where positive views dropped significantly include India (56 percent, down from 71 percent); Russia (43 percent, down from 52 percent); and Indonesia (30 percent, down from 38 percent). In Turkey, only 12 percent said they held a favorable opinion, down from 23 percent last year.
Declines were less steep in France, Germany and Jordan, while people in China and Pakistan had a slightly more favorable image of the United States this year than last. In Britain, Washington's closest ally in the Iraq war, positive views of America have remained in the mid-50-percent range in the past two years, down sharply from 75 percent in 2002, before the war.
Support for the fight against terrorism led by the United States is also down, Pew found.
Although strong majorities in several countries expressed worries about Iran's nuclear intentions, in 13 of 15 countries polled, most people said the war in Iraq posed more of a danger to world peace. Russians held that view by a 2-to-1 margin.
"Obviously, when you get many more people saying that the U.S. presence in Iraq is a threat to world peace as say that about Iran, it's a measure of how much Iraq is sapping good will to the United States," said Andrew Kohut, president of the Pew Research Center.
The latest declines came after a year in which anti-American sentiment had slightly receded, aided by good feeling over aid for tsunami victims and political progress in Iraq.
The polling was conducted before the completion last week of the Iraqi government or the killing of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/z/abu_musab_al_zarqawi/index.html?inline=nyt-per), the leader of Al Qaeda (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/a/al_qaeda/index.html?inline=nyt-org) in Mesopotamia.

These were some other findings:

After Hamas's (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/h/hamas/index.html?inline=nyt-org) victory in the Palestinian elections, Germans, in a reversal, said they sympathized more with Israel than with the Palestinians. Support for Israel also rose in France, to 38 percent from 20 percent.
After the immigrants' riots and job protests in France, people in every country but one — the United States — said they held dimmer views of the French. The number of Americans favorably impressed by France rose to 52 percent, from 29 percent in 2003, when the French angered many Americans by refusing to back the war in Iraq.
Only 75 percent of Americans had heard reports of abuses at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq and at the American naval base at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, while 90 percent of Western Europeans and Japanese had heard about them.Many respondents distinguished between their largely negative feelings about President Bush and their feelings about Americans in general.
Majorities in 7 of 14 countries polled, not including the United States, had favorable views of Americans, led by Japan, at 82 percent, and Britain, at 69 percent. But majorities in just two countries, India and Nigeria, expressed confidence in Mr. Bush.
After a tumultuous year in Iraq and Afghanistan, the fight against terrorism is now backed by more than 50 percent of people only in Russia and India, while support has virtually collapsed in Japan, the poll found. People in the United States were not asked this question. But as leading powers seek ways to contain the Iranian nuclear program, the poll found strong majorities in Western Europe, Japan, and India sharing underlying American concerns. The percentages of people in Britain, France and Spain who view Tehran as a threat have roughly tripled in three years.
More than 9 in 10 Americans, Germans, Japanese and French opposed Iran's acquiring nuclear arms.
Pew surveyed 16,710 people from March 31 to May 14 in Britain, China, Egypt, France, Germany, India, Indonesia, Japan, Jordan, Nigeria, Pakistan, Russia, Spain, Turkey and the United States. The margin of error was two to four percentage points in every country except Britain and Germany, where it was six points.

[Hydro]

Those bums won their court case so they're marching today.




Illinois Nazis.........I hate Illinois Nazis.

[Kilgor]

Well I can't speak for the French, but I know why I dislike America and it's because it sticks it's nose in other countries business and leads wars driven by its military-industrial complex in the name of "Democracy and Freedom" For who?

You will find throughout human history, major world powers with the ability of international reach have always stuck their noses in other people's business.

[Ed the bumbling fool]

No worries, when Finland takes its righfull position as the only superpower in the world these kind of articles will be all about anti-Finnishnes and US don´t need to worry about them anymore ;).

Im on to you now your getting us all addicted to mobile phones and soon the price will start going up, My wife (a Swede) was right you cant be trusted you have a language nobody can even learn let alone understand drink chemicals and probably all have knives in your boots.:fork:

[muck]

Here's a NY Times article in re to a Pew Survey.

I still think the US is one of the greatest country. For a simple reason.

It is a place where anyone and everyone has a chance to achieve anything.
Many talk about Anti-americanism, yet we see lines of people outside each US Embassies and consulates hoping for a chance of a new life.

If these people do not have 'faith' in the US then who does?

Well, the South European coast lines also receive that friendly storm of Immigrants hoping for a better life in European Countries...Due to the very strict immigration laws of the US I would assume those people would search for a better life in general and did not care about the name of the place where they can find it. But back to the topic.

Probably everyone is very fond of his nation. But concerning another country, we should separate between the image we have got from the policy it's government stands for and the people from that nation. You see, speaking of the American policy, I'm totally disappointed. If this is enough for that survey to call my attitude towards the United States 'Anti-American', a partial explanation is delivered for the result of that questionary.

But I myself know some Americans, they are very friendly and warm-hearted people, so I suppose I do not have something against the United States at all. The fact would be, I am not Anti-American - got what I mean?

The second part of the result should be explanated with the image one gets from a whole nation. Not knowing any American, the most people judge from the few Americans they see in TV...that impression, mixed with the little nasty prejudices probably everyone has, in this case prejudices about those crazy-patriotic and stupid-ingenuous Americans, you have an obvious ending. But policy apparently does the biggest damage to the image of the good America.

[CroWinner]

Probably everyone is very fond of his nation. But concerning another country, we should separate between the image we have got from the policy it's government stands for and the people from that nation. You see, speaking of the American policy, I'm totally disappointed. If this is enough for that survey to call my attitude towards the United States 'Anti-American', a partial explanation is delivered for the result of that questionary.

But I myself know some Americans, they are very friendly and warm-hearted people, so I suppose I do not have something against the United States at all. The fact would be, I am not Anti-American - got what I mean?

The second part of the result should be explanated with the image one gets from a whole nation. Not knowing any American, the most people judge from the few Americans they see in TV...that impression, mixed with the little nasty prejudices probably everyone has, in this case prejudices about those crazy-patriotic and stupid-ingenuous Americans, you have an obvious ending. But policy apparently does the biggest damage to the image of the good America.

I do, soo agree with this.
Americans are very warm and darling people. But I have no respect for Bush administration, at all.

[IronFinn]

Im on to you now your getting us all addicted to mobile phones and soon the price will start going up, My wife (a Swede) was right you cant be trusted you have a language nobody can even learn let alone understand drink chemicals and probably all have knives in your boots.:fork:

You got it allmost right, we actually collect huge amount of intell through the surveillance tech installed in all of the Nokia phones p-). As for the swedes, they are first ones we will take over when our wunderwaffens are complete, after the swedes we will take the world. Then the swedes and the rest of the world need to start learning finnish to be able to comply with your new masters :).
Err the knifes, are you talking about these? (the standard knife for every finnish male, mine is from the army NCO -school). If so then yes, we are packed with them.

[11 Bravo]

I wasn't too keen on having bombs dropped on my head either, while watching what kind of BS American tv stations and politicians talks about me and my country while killing my people and destroying our land for supposed humanitarian reasons


So you mean you're not one of those slavs that was butchering your neighbors because of their religion or ethnicity ?. Shame some buddy of mine missed your arse with those GPS munitions. Won't next time adolph.

[artistoli]

France lost most of the Americas to the British Empire and ever since has been distinctly suspicious of the Anglo-Americans. This was not helped by the fact that it needed the same Anglo-Americans to defend it during the First World War. Things really got bad when the French were left out of the major decisions taken during the Allied fight in World War 2 after May 1940, and then by the fact that Paris had to be liberated by the same Anglo-American forces. Added to this the fact that post WW2 the French were on their knees economically and had to be bailed out by the American Marshall Plan (as were the British and most of Western Europe to be fair), and that the disasterous French fight to keep Indo-China had to be paid for by the United States, and it is hardly suprising that the French still feel a certain bitterness to the Anglo-Americans.

The French are a nation that lost their place in the world in 1940 and found their new place as a power within the European project. It has served them, and Germany well (think CAP for example). Fair dos to the French, they have played their cards in the post-war period well, but due to their comittment to the European project they are going to see any projection of power by the US as a threat to their dream of being the driving force at the heart of a new European superpower. The UK has never fully embraced the European club due to its close links (as much in terms of individual families and friends as politics and economics) with its former colonies, including the US, and so it will always look across the Atlantic for support and to give it's support. I for one believe that despite the left-wing trend to embrace Europe and so join in (often without real thought or consideration) the anti-American rhetoric and jump on the bandwagon, most Brits are still much more pro-American than the media would have us believe.

[Dakota435]

... most Brits are still much more pro-American than the media would have us believe.

I don't get that impression from the brits I know. They tend to have a knee jerk condescending outlook to all things American.

I live a couple hundred miles from where the French lost N America to the British, a little pasture outside the old walls of Quebec City, and it's a bit of a shock to discover the fate of N America was decided by maybe 1000 troops total on both sides (forget the actual number). The French gave up N America with not much of a fight because they were distracted elsewhere. Then when they were offered Quebec back a number of years later, they took Martinique instead. Quebecers are not as attached to the mother country as you might think, for this reason and others.

[mas-36]

artistoli-

You must have read Bill O'Reilly's "Conservatively Correct American History".

Next time you post something which you know very little about, you may wish to post a "Comedy Relief" disclaimer before you write anything else.:bash: It's only good form.

[artistoli]

artistoli-

You must have read Bill O'Reilly's "Conservatively Correct American History".

Next time you post something which you know very little about, you may wish to post a "Comedy Relief" disclaimer before you write anything else.:bash: It's only good form.

I have actually read a great deal of books on the subject and been fascinated with it for years. I have also lived in the US as well as here in the UK. Your comment is typical of the personal attacks that the left tend to use. It is that exact kind of tactic which people who cannot come up with an argument use. Quite childish really.

The comments I made did not, if you actually read them, comment much on the politics one way or another; just the cold hard facts of what happened. How people interpret what happened is what gives rise to the arguments we now have.

[artistoli]

I don't get that impression from the brits I know. They tend to have a knee jerk condescending outlook to all things American.


I think that this is completely wrong. I have lived in the West Midlands, Kent, Worcestershire, East Sussex and also London. The only place where people seemed to look down on Americans (obviously I am generalising as is necessary in such debates) was in London. It is interesting to note that although 12 million people live in greater London, 48 million Brits live outside of it, and London is by far and away the most un-British place in Britain; being largely populated by foreigners. Because the media, and in particular the BBC, is based in London this tends to give Londoners a much louder voice on the world stage; hence the views of a minority are misinterpreted as the voice of the majority.

If you want to gauge the view of the majority of the British just look at what newspapers are the most popular in the UK; the tabloid Sun and the broadsheet (well, shrunken broadsheet now) Times. Both are by and large pro-American. Of course, other papers such as the Guardian and the Observer are vocally anti-American and very pro-European integration, but it is interesting to note that they are actually loss making papers with dwindling circulation.

As always in Europe (including the UK), the relatively small inteligestia tends to lean to the left and thus will always be suspicious of capitalist America. It is the same small group of people who tend to have access to the media and educational establishments, thus giving them a much bigger voice than they warrant.

[shocker1]

t the French still feel a certain bitterness to the Anglo-Americans.

Ahh.. My grandfather said only French men were bitter. All kidding aside most Europeans who know what America is like focus their dissatisfaction at our goverment. The misinformed, biased picture book ideas of anti-americanism seems to be the fad today. Politics aside we like to do the same things but nice hand holding international brotherhood does not sell papers or drive wars and elections. Can't have that now.

[CMNot]

Just wait until China is top dog, then we'll hear sweet nothings about the yanks as opposed "they are all fat/stupid/fanatical etc. etc.".

I'd take what we have right now over what we could yet get.

[Hydro]

As a whole, people only tend to look at the negatives when judging a country, inevitably these negatives are stereotypes. Grinds my gears. Here, a lot of folk say they hate France and the French. Why? Never heard a good reason for it. Why do you hate the Americans? Usually the answer is "George Bush". That's right, judge the country and it's people on one man, and a politician at that. I've always been of the opinion that America is like 48 small countries joined together with another tacked onto Canada and another floating in the Pacific. You can't say a Texan and a Californian, in the broad strokes, are the same person.

[shocker1]

Just wait until China is top dog, then we'll hear sweet nothings about the yanks as opposed "they are all fat/stupid/fanatical etc. etc.".

I'd take what we have right now over what we could yet get.
China is top dog at the auto parts store with Mexico running a close second.:)

Canada holding the rear of the top three.

[Atlantic Friend]

As a whole, people only tend to look at the negatives when judging a country, inevitably these negatives are stereotypes. Grinds my gears. Here, a lot of folk say they hate France and the French. Why? Never heard a good reason for it.


That's the point. Bots, whether Conservative or Liberal, never need reasons - in fact they keep well away from rationales, because then it makes it harder to say "I hate Nation X/Group Y" and feel all macho and superior about it.

[artistoli]

That's the point. Bots, whether Conservative or Liberal, never need reasons - in fact they keep well away from rationales, because then it makes it harder to say "I hate Nation X/Group Y" and feel all macho and superior about it.

To an extent this is true but there is also the point that if we were not to generalise, and instead took stock of nations based on their individual citizens then nothing would ever be understandable, nothing would ever be decided, policies would be unworkable and everything would break down into a slimy mass of primordial soup. Generalising and stereotyping, whilst being unsavory to individuals negatively affected, is a necessary building block of civilization. If you think about it democracy itself is an exercise in generalisation and ignoring individual traits and preferences in favour of the desires of the largest group's preferences.

[Hydro]

To an extent this is true but there is also the point that if we were not to generalise, and instead took stock of nations based on their individual citizens then nothing would ever be understandable, nothing would ever be decided, policies would be unworkable and everything would break down into a slimy mass of primordial soup. Generalising and stereotyping, whilst being unsavory to individuals negatively affected, is a necessary building block of civilization. If you think about it democracy itself is an exercise in generalisation and ignoring individual traits and preferences in favour of the desires of the largest group's preferences.


That's more akin to "intelligent" generalisation I suppose. There are reasons for doing so, whereas a lot (this itself would be a generalisation to a degree :)) of people that I've been in contact with claiming to dislike a certain nationality or state have no good reason to other than following the herd.

[Atlantic Friend]

To an extent this is true but there is also the point that if we were not to generalise, and instead took stock of nations based on their individual citizens then nothing would ever be understandable, nothing would ever be decided, policies would be unworkable and everything would break down into a slimy mass of primordial soup. Generalising and stereotyping, whilst being unsavory to individuals negatively affected, is a necessary building block of civilization. If you think about it democracy itself is an exercise in generalisation and ignoring individual traits and preferences in favour of the desires of the largest group's preferences.

Of course. Breaking down big, incoherent things into small, manageable and coherent items is key to human comprehension of the universe (and lack thereof).

But when it comes to hate, well, I think it's just some primitive and powerful part of our brain who makes sure higher thought processed are bypassed so it can feel good hurling abuse at whoever is the current target. And as History has shown time and time again, you can even run whole developed nations on these dark undercurrents, with far less positive results on human civilization.

[Amethystfretchen]

Ok. And now a break and some rock:

http://www.youtube.com/v/_YAry_ZtTDs