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super_noodle
04-12-2007, 04:26 PM
A freind of mine told me there was a book on the Vietnam war about the US Govermant employing a company of SS to reak havoc in Vietnam is this true if so does anyone no the title of the book?

Hydro
04-12-2007, 04:30 PM
I think by the Vietnam war the SS was rather a defunct organisation.

The only connection I have heard about the SS and Vietnam was former SS soldiers serving in the French Foreign Legion in the 50's, when Vietnam was still Indochina.

Karo
04-12-2007, 04:30 PM
Never heard anything like that. Maybe you mean that rumour (?) about SS soldiers in the FFL during the french part of the Indochina conflict?

super_noodle
04-12-2007, 04:30 PM
Ahhh ok thanks mate,might of been somewere else and my mate could of been mistaken.

Roy Batty
04-12-2007, 04:43 PM
They may have been talking about "Devil's Guard" by George Robert Elford. Try Amazon.com ect to find it.

panzrman
04-12-2007, 04:50 PM
They may have been talking about "Devil's Guard" by George Robert Elford. Try Amazon.com ect to find it.

Very good read , and I was going to mention it myself.

retrobob
04-12-2007, 05:02 PM
According to 'Spies and Commandos: How America lost the Secret War in North Vietnam' (Kenneth Conboy+Dale Andrade ISBN 1-55750-818-6))
SOG via the CIA's Bonn station hired 3 Germans to command MTB's in late 1962.SOG had earlier employed 3 Norwegian civilians to command their Norwegian made 'Nasty' MTB's. The Norwegians had sucessfully completed 6 month contracts and were apparently highly regarded by both the US and Vietnamese. The German seaman,owing to their offensive nature,poor seamanship,tactics and poor OPSEC were terminated after one month.

Jµµso
04-12-2007, 05:14 PM
Larry Thorne served in SS
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/larry-thorne.htm

super_noodle
04-12-2007, 05:56 PM
They may have been talking about "Devil's Guard" by George Robert Elford. Try Amazon.com ect to find it.
Thats the one Devils guard i think he said it was Devils Brigade but i have already read that book and watched the film :)
Have had a look on Amozen but i dont no which one it is?

California Joe
04-12-2007, 06:16 PM
Your mate is a knucklehead. With his vast knowledge of history he'd probably fit in well here.

super_noodle
04-12-2007, 06:22 PM
Your mate is a knucklehead. With his vast knowledge of history he'd probably fit in well here.
rofl roflYour right mate.

Argyll
04-12-2007, 06:22 PM
Care to explain why 4 peoples accounts come up when checking your IP address?
jameshr4
limey
super_noodle
SWATairsoft

Mutiple accounts are a banning offence.

Hydro
04-12-2007, 06:24 PM
Care to explain why 4 peoples accounts come up when checking your IP address?
jameshr4
limey
super_noodle
SWATairsoft

Mutiple accounts are a banning offence.




This alongside the Kurdish guy's dupe account as well? Hmmm, coincidence? Or is Argyll's spidey sense on the blink? p-)

DnA
04-12-2007, 06:26 PM
Care to explain why 4 peoples accounts come up when checking your IP address?
jameshr4
limey
super_noodle
SWATairsoft

Mutiple accounts are a banning offence.

ohhhh snap

Argyll
04-12-2007, 06:28 PM
Indeed they are.......

Ed the bumbling fool
04-12-2007, 06:32 PM
FFL definitely employed large numbers of germans although not necessarily ss.
They should have left in to the Gurkha's and the whole mess might have cleared up before 1950.
(British troops from 20th indian division including Gurkha's were first allied troops into Siagon and south Vietnam (french indochina) in 1945 and succeeded in re asserting control from viet minh before arrival of french troops.

zulu261
04-12-2007, 07:05 PM
Care to explain why 4 peoples accounts come up when checking your IP address?
jameshr4
limey
super_noodle
SWATairsoft

Mutiple accounts are a banning offence.

"Tonight, watch Argyll own the multi-ip gang" :)

As for the topic I think that the only SS guys served with the FFL, because they fled this way after the allies occupied Germany.

I read about that complete SS brigades dissappeared in the last days of war. So them joining the FFL is pretty realistic. Highly efficient fighters which only faced combat so far.

But I have nothing proved so...

Ordie
04-12-2007, 07:08 PM
FFL definitely employed large numbers of germans although not necessarily ss.
They should have left in to the Gurkha's and the whole mess might have cleared up before 1950.
(British troops from 20th indian division including Gurkha's were first allied troops into Siagon and south Vietnam (french indochina) in 1945 and succeeded in re asserting control from viet minh before arrival of french troops.

At that same time 150,000 Chinese Nationalist Forces (KMT) enters into Hanoi from Yunnan. The Japanese surrendered to the (KMT). It wasn't until 1946 when the Chinese agreed to leave Vietnam in return for French concessions/colonies in China.

Pidyon Shevuyim
04-12-2007, 07:23 PM
As for the topic I think that the only SS guys served with the FFL, because they fled this way after the allies occupied Germany.


Although i cant provide solid proof (over the internet), i can asure you La Légion étrangčre has had its fair share of SS enlisted in its ranks. Many also fled to Africa after the war, and fought in the Congo, along side Siegfried Müller.

capixaba
04-12-2007, 07:43 PM
They may have been talking about "Devil's Guard" by George Robert Elford. Try Amazon.com ect to find it.

I read that when it first came out - still a few copies around on Amazon, when I was looking for it again a couple of months back.

I was doing some research on a WW1 French soldier, a while ago and I went on the French national roll of honour site, that gives casualty details from both World Wars, and also Indochina. Now having read the above mentioned book I got looking on the Indochina section, and typed in a few common German surnames, like Schwartz, and there they were - died for France so honoured by France - it gives place of birth (when known), also the ages are bang on for having served in WW2.
Now it is more than likely some of them were ex SS. Most ordinary German soldiers only wanted to go home at the end of the war (if they could - or had anything to go back to). Obviously there were SS who needed to get out of Europe, but there were others who saw it as a way to continue the fight against the Communists.

Hollis
04-12-2007, 07:48 PM
Ok this is a secret, never before mentions, so before I tell anyone, you have to swear to secrecy......

OK, that being done, Alien Martian Mercenaries were employed by the US forces to zap ray, the Cong. That is the real reason the Cong regulars disappeared in 1968.

California Joe
04-12-2007, 07:59 PM
Hollis, I thought you trained them while you were there for that offshoot of the Phoenix program. You know....the Wolpertingers. From what I read their ROE's were not to "wreak havok" but to "insult, annoy and generally cause the enemy to have low self esteem"

Ezekiel25:17
04-12-2007, 08:13 PM
They were in Laos too fighting the Mexicans.

Hutz
04-12-2007, 09:57 PM
Still no news on the multiple accounts? The suspense is killing me.

INCONEL
04-12-2007, 10:36 PM
They may have been talking about "Devil's Guard" by George Robert Elford. Try Amazon.com ect to find it.


That is the book on former SS Soldiers in Indochina...The book is not cheap..I picked up a 1st edition hardcover off ebay about a year ago...$195.00 usd...

OldRecon
04-12-2007, 11:06 PM
At that same time 150,000 Chinese Nationalist Forces (KMT) enters into Hanoi from Yunnan. The Japanese surrendered to the (KMT). It wasn't until 1946 when the Chinese agreed to leave Vietnam in return for French concessions/colonies in China.

Was it Ho Chi Minh who said: "Better to tease the French for 5 years, than eat Chinese dog**** for 500 years" ?

koolkat
04-13-2007, 07:03 AM
There was another thread on the same subject here. There was also a link to free ebook devils guard by george robert elford.

super_noodle
04-13-2007, 07:32 AM
Care to explain why 4 peoples accounts come up when checking your IP address?
jameshr4
limey
super_noodle
SWATairsoft

Mutiple accounts are a banning offence.
I dont no mate i have been on here for years,well watched but have never registerd,and i hate airsoft bunch of walts,and im called Dave not james.

Switek
04-13-2007, 08:01 AM
Care to explain why 4 peoples accounts come up when checking your IP address?
jameshr4
limey
super_noodle
SWATairsoft

Mutiple accounts are a banning offence.

In my case, according to my internet provider, I share my IP address with about 30 local net users.

OMG!!!

playtym
04-13-2007, 08:05 AM
In my case, according to my internet provider, I share my IP address with about 30 local net users.

OMG!!!

I can get assigned a new IP just by re-booting my ADSL router. Using an IP to identify someone isn't that simple I guess.

FROGFOOT-MKDN
04-13-2007, 08:22 AM
Although NOT a fan of nazis, the SS troops were till the end of WW2, the best infantry in every aspect imaginable. Just saw on Discovery Civilization some documentary about them, even in the last months of the war, with shortages of supplies, intelligence & all else proved to be superior to everything the Allies threw at them.
I would sure like to had some of those experienced men by me when the ***** hits the fan! Bet they come in handy in Indochina, since French are not famous for being good warriors!

alfigel
04-13-2007, 10:18 AM
Never heard anything like that. Maybe you mean that rumour (?) about SS soldiers in the FFL during the french part of the Indochina conflict?

That's no rumour. The French offered a lot of POWs to fight in the French Foreign Legion for 10ish years, and especially former SS soldiers accepted because of the fear that they would be prosecuted as war criminals. Saw a documentation on that on Arte (French-German TV station).

ex1cdo
04-13-2007, 10:18 AM
They may have been talking about "Devil's Guard" by George Robert Elford. Try Amazon.com ect to find it.

I found it out there somewhere in the recent past, it's about 1.1 megs in PDF format....


(http://ca.geocities.com/ex1cdo/dg.pdf)

super_noodle
04-13-2007, 10:23 AM
I found it out there somewhere in the recent past, it's about 1.1 megs in PDF format....

Devil's Guard (http://ca.geocities.com/ex1cdo/dg.pdf)
Does not work mate.

ex1cdo
04-13-2007, 10:27 AM
Does not work mate.

Bloody bandwidth restrictions. I'll see if I can put it elsewhere and repost the link.

super_noodle
04-13-2007, 10:38 AM
Bloody bandwidth restrictions. I'll see if I can put it elsewhere and repost the link.
Cheers mate,nice one.

darkninja
04-13-2007, 09:06 PM
Although NOT a fan of nazis, the SS troops were till the end of WW2, the best infantry in every aspect imaginable. Just saw on Discovery Civilization some documentary about them, even in the last months of the war, with shortages of supplies, intelligence & all else proved to be superior to everything the Allies threw at them.
I would sure like to had some of those experienced men by me when the ***** hits the fan! Bet they come in handy in Indochina, since French are not famous for being good warriors!


Best Infantry of WW2??? On what do you base that on??? If you limit it to the Eastern Front-I might agree but the statement of the best of WW2 seems a stretch....What about the 82nd or the 101st??? They were considered crack troops...The Royal Marine Commando's were tough b*stards, the Canadian and Australians put together some aggressive, hard charging teams and last but not least, Marine Raiders, Marines, Japanese Naval Infantry...and I'm sure many that I forgot...

super_noodle
04-14-2007, 08:07 AM
I have started reading Devils Guard,they should make a film it would be exellent watching.

mas-36
04-14-2007, 08:33 AM
Bet they come in handy in Indochina, since French are not famous for being good warriors!


I see you've spent time here in the US. :roll: Trying reading about the French commandos, SAS, the Maquis fighters and Leclerc's 2e DB, to name a few.

Vandervahn
04-15-2007, 07:20 AM
Bloody bandwidth restrictions. I'll see if I can put it elsewhere and repost the link.


Just upload it to **********.com

Switek
04-15-2007, 07:29 AM
Although NOT a fan of nazis, the SS troops were till the end of WW2, the best infantry in every aspect imaginable. Just saw on Discovery Civilization some documentary about them, even in the last months of the war, with shortages of supplies, intelligence & all else proved to be superior to everything the Allies threw at them.
I would sure like to had some of those experienced men by me when the ***** hits the fan! Bet they come in handy in Indochina, since French are not famous for being good warriors!

AFAIK, the best SS infranty units in the end of the WW2 were those where served former Red Army troops (Russians, Ukrainians, Cossaks, Armenians and many others), who obviously knew what they were going be treated after transmmision them as POW to Stalin hands

STuG
04-15-2007, 08:33 AM
Hello all,

just to add to this discussion, i would hate to think that people are forming the opinion that "Devils Guard" is serious contribution to the literature of the French experience in Indochina.

Certainly ex-German troops served in the Legion, that is a matter of historical record, but over the years their numbers would seem to have been....overstated. Plus, just because a Legionnaire has a German name, this does not automatically make him a WW2 Veteran!

For example, a fairly poorly researched book which gave tenuous "support" to this notion is called "Verkaufte Jahr" by Hans E Baur.Amongst the many photos he alleged were of German Legionnaires was a photo of a grave of containing a German Legionnaire ( see attached image), sadly for him he had preformed no primary research himself and failed to note that the Legionnaire whose grave is shown, 2e Classe Horst Voigt of the 2e REI, was born in May 1932, making him all of thirteen when World War II ended! (The information on Voigt is posted on the French governments Indochina casualty database.)

If you want to read a very ,very good Indochina related book you MUST get hold of a copy of Bernard B.Falls' "Hell in a very small place" or his other classic "Street without joy".

Another good recent read is "The last valley" which deals again with Dien Bien Phu and the defeat of French Union forces in Indochina.All the above have little time for the "whole units of SS" myth.

The author George Lepre a few years ago spoke concerning the whole "Germans in Indochina" topic, his comments i post here for your continued information.



"Michels, Porch, and Fall are without a doubt among the finest Legion historians. Each one of them has researched the SS in Indochina question and reached the same conclusion, i.e. that the story has been blown out of proportion by post-war novelists (unintentionally) and by Communist propagandists (intentionally).

The best book on this subject is Dr. Eckard Michels' Deutsche in der Fremdenlegion, 1870-1965: Mythen and Realitaeten. Those of you who have read this masterwork will surely agree that the author is an outstanding and exhaustive researcher.

I think we should be careful not to confuse "SS" with "Wehrmacht" in this context, because former Wehrmacht members did serve in the Legion in Indochina. Legion recruiters began looking for volunteers in French POW camps in 1943 and the French zone of Germany beginning in the summer of 1945. Michels provides two figures regarding the number of Wehrmacht POWs inducted into the Legion in the period 1945-1946: one of these is 3000, given by the Allied High Commission; the other is 5000, which he calls a "maximum" figure.

Officially, former SS men could not enlist in the Legion. The Deuxieme Bureau interrogated prospective volunteers and inspected their arms for bloodtype tattoos (we know of course that not every SS man had this tattoo, but many did). However, a small number of ex-SS men did manage to gain entrance in 1945 and 1946. When the PCF and other Communist parties around the world heard of this, they had a field day. Enraged French government officials demanded a crackdown, and this took place in 1947. This is when the French officer gave the figure of "60 or 70" former SS serving in the Legion.

Professor Michels attempted on three different occaisons to obtain access to the Legion's own archive at Aubagne to explore this question further but he was refused admittance. However, the American historian Douglas Porch was permitted to see most of their files, and his overall conclusion was that few ex-SS men served in the Legion. I think that Porch's research has great weight, as he had assistance from the cream of French military historians, including of course Andre-Paul Comor.

Professor Fall's writings about the Legion are important because he personally visited units in the field and spoke with Legionnaires. However, it should be noted that by the time of Operation Castor (Dien Bien Phu - 1954), many if not most of the German Legionnaires who had enlisted in 1945 and 1946 had either deserted or completed their five-year contracts, so they were already gone. The desertion stories are fascinating in their own right; some Legionnaires enroute to Indochina jumped from their transport ships as they were passing through the Suez Canal, whereupon the French military police would open fire on them in the water."

I hope you find this of interest.

Ericsson
04-15-2007, 09:35 PM
SS soldiers where serving all over the world

1652HCU
04-17-2007, 06:10 PM
Many of the French and other 'conscripts' who had served in the German military were at the end of the war released from POW camps (as their service was seen as forced). To show their ‘patriotism’ many if not most ‘volunteered’ to serve in their countries armed services for a year or so.

As to the SS, they not only served in the FFL, but also in other European armed forces (much less documented). Remember that this was a time when the European countries still had many colonies and a big shortage of trained military personnel.

StukaJr
04-17-2007, 07:00 PM
A freind of mine told me there was a book on the Vietnam war about the US Govermant employing a company of SS to reak havoc in Vietnam is this true if so does anyone no the title of the book?

Using common sense, the youngest member of that SS Company would be in his mid 40's and most in their 50's - not the prime age group to recruit from for gruntwork, now is it? What jungle operation did SS ever participate in or trained for? Ever?

"Reak Havoc" is also not a description I would use for Vietnam War.

stonecutter
04-19-2007, 07:00 PM
Hello all,

just to add to this discussion, i would hate to think that people are forming the opinion that "Devils Guard" is serious contribution to the literature of the French experience in Indochina.


Good post, STuG. Indeed, the whole SS battalion fighting under French colours in Indochina is a myth. Elford's book is damned good reading, though! I believe the general opinion of it is that some of the stories depicted actually happened (Legion or other French Army units), and were cobbled together and perhaps embellished a bit for the book. Basically the guy listened to a bunch of beer-fuelled (?) stories, and wrote them down.

James
04-19-2007, 08:44 PM
Remember that this was a time when the European countries still had many colonies and a big shortage of trained military personnel.

In 1945? :| You sure about that?

turska
04-20-2007, 07:23 AM
Although NOT a fan of nazis, the SS troops were till the end of WW2, the best infantry in every aspect imaginable. Just saw on Discovery Civilization some documentary about them, even in the last months of the war, with shortages of supplies, intelligence & all else proved to be superior to everything the Allies threw at them.
I would sure like to had some of those experienced men by me when the ***** hits the fan! Bet they come in handy in Indochina, since French are not famous for being good warriors!

Well, some of the SS units were poorly trained and poorly armed. As a rule of thumb those "original" SS units were good. Like Das Reich, LAH, Wiking and so on., but most of those late war SS Infantry divisions were poor in every aspect.

OldRecon
04-20-2007, 07:44 AM
Well, some of the SS units were poorly trained and poorly armed. As a rule of thumb those "original" SS units were good. Like Das Reich, LAH, Wiking and so on., but most of those late war SS Infantry divisions were poor in every aspect.

I wouldn't exactly class late Waffen SS divisions like Götz von Berlichingen, Herman von Salza, Hitlerjugend and Nordland as poor performers in the field, but then you had other "divisonal" (many of the only of such strenght on paper) Waffen SS units like Prinz Eugen (mixed reputation), Handschar (poor reputation) and those units upgraded to divisional status on the charts led by people like Kaminski and Dirlewanger.

Bandeirante
04-20-2007, 08:08 AM
Two time Losers

1652HCU
04-20-2007, 06:38 PM
In 1945? :| You sure about that?

Yes, we’re not talking conscripts or the elements that joined the Allies after they were liberated, hastily trained and joined the fight. Here we are talking professional soldiers trained in COIN and conventional tactics.

Trying to ‘re’-conscript soldiers who had just helped liberate their homeland (France, Belgium, Netherlands etc) for overseas service was political suicide.

Remember that after hostilities ended, the Japanese were utilised by the allies to disarm all the rebel elements and restore order and the political norms. It took the European powers quite some time to get their houses back in order.

Ericsson
04-22-2007, 11:35 PM
the waffen SS where some of the hardest troop
they fought on everyfront in the Eastern front
they where out man out gun and freezing
very hard core..