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budanski
04-30-2004, 12:04 PM
Why US troops have new shoulder pads
csmonitor (http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0428/p06s01-woiq.html)


http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0428/csmimg/p6a.jpg
PATROL DUTY: Marines with the RCT1 Medivac Convoy Security near Fallujah wear Kevlar shoulder pads to protect against injury from explosive devices.

A new combat trauma registry that tracks casualty patterns in Iraq may spur development of new gear.

By Scott Peterson | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

FALLUJAH, IRAQ - For military medics, the lesson that matters most from Lt. Jeff Copeland's US Marine convoy is not that it was ambushed three times by Iraqi insurgents on a single run.

The key point for them: How and where were the two US casualties wounded?

As US troops struggle with ongoing violence, a newly established US Navy Combat Trauma Registry is charting casualty patterns in hopes of improving troop protection. The number of US dead in April has reached 122, with nearly 900 troops wounded.

Already, specific dangers for US forces - roadside bombs and urban warfare - are prompting swift innovations.

The military, for example, has rush ordered thousands of Kevlar shoulder guards and blastproof sunglasses. The reason? Ask Lieutenant Copeland, a US Navy combat medic officer from Gainesville, Fla., whose first taste of combat came two weeks ago. Two of his marines took shoulder injuries from bullets and shrapnel. "He's done, he's gone home - he can't shoot," Copeland says of one case. New Kevlar shoulder guards might have protected the marine and kept him on the battlefront.

Monday, Fallujah remained relatively calm as marines prepared for joint patrols with Iraqi forces later this week. But in Najaf, US forces killed 43 Shiite militiamen in a gun battle and destroyed an antiaircraft system belonging to the insurgents. Spanish peacekeeping troops also completed their withdrawal from positions in Najaf and Diwaniya.

At Camp Fallujah, seven miles east of the city, new forms arrived this week that will allow surgeons to log details of injuries and answer questions about their cause, and armor used.

Using a prototype form until now, US Navy medical corpsmen at the Bravo Surgical Company here have detailed more than 190 trauma cases.

The new forms can be filled out on computer; some medical officers nearer the front line will hold voice recorders. "All we have is this huge database from Vietnam that ... needs updating," says US Navy Capt. Eric McDonald, chief surgeon for the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force. "We're trying to answer those questions - which glasses are better, which armor, which vehicle is better - in a scientific way."

There has been close cooperation between the US Army and the Navy, which traditionally provides medical support for the marines. "If you watch Roman Legion movies, that is where we are getting to," says Navy Capt. John Siefert, a doctor from San Diego, Calif., referring to Kevlar shoulder guards and lower skirts on flak vests.

"I've seen mockups of the future warrior, and they look like [Star Wars] storm troopers," says Cmdr. Ben Ernst, medical director of the unit, from Chillicothe, Missouri.

Trauma centers in US hospitals today are a direct outgrowth of Army medics coping with combat trauma in Vietnam. Improvements since that era - including forward surgical teams much closer to front-line action - have trimmed front-line death rates.

In the 1991 Gulf War, ceramic armor plates were used only by Special Forces; today they are standard issue.

Parallel to the budding Navy effort, the Army has been pursuing the first stages of its own trauma registry. The birth of key innovations in Iraq, in fact, began over the winter, when the Army's 82nd Airborne controlled this area.

It was Lt. Col. Kelly Bal, an orthopedic surgeon with the Army's 82nd Airborne, who first detected the pattern of wounds to exposed shoulders.

Colonel Bal jerry-rigged a Kevlar groin protector from a typical armored vest to fit around the upper arm, says McDonald. A prototype saved a soldier. The Army quickly bought 6,000, some 2,000 of which are now being used by marines. The Marines have ordered 25,000 more shoulder protectors.

A similar story surrounds the wide use of Wiley-X sunglasses with ballistic lenses and padded frames, and toughened goggles - a direct result of blast wounds to the eyes from IEDs.

"Ideally, we would travel in hermetically sealed bubbles ... but we don't drape ourselves in this stuff [because] everything you add is a benefit, and has a cost," says McDonald. Shoulder protectors may hamper a marksman and add a heat burden. Some ballistic glasses tend to fog in heat.

Experts are also working on a better earplug that permits frequencies like voices while protecting against the noise of a nearby grenade blast. Surgeons here also expect more coverage of neck and lower abdomen areas. "The future is mining that database," says McDonald, "to find the places where benefits [of new measures] outweigh risks."

mack pl
04-30-2004, 12:11 PM
Good idea :|

scm77
04-30-2004, 01:02 PM
I know it doesn't really matter, but the Marines look like horrible. Theyhave all kinds of different camo patterns and colours. Woodland, Marpat, 3 Colour Desert, Coyote Brown. :cantbeli:

Fintin
04-30-2004, 01:04 PM
I know it doesn't really matter, but the Marines look like horrible. Theyhave all kinds of different camo patterns and colours. Woodland, Marpat, 3 Colour Desert, Coyote Brown. :cantbeli:

the pritty soldier is a dead soldier....who cares...they are safer..thats all that matters

foxtrot023
04-30-2004, 01:06 PM
I know it doesn't really matter, but the Marines look like horrible. Theyhave all kinds of different camo patterns and colours. Woodland, Marpat, 3 Colour Desert, Coyote Brown. :cantbeli:

perhaps we should send the queer eye for the straight guy squad to Iraq and teach those marines a lesson in combination of colors, right?
:cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli:

Skullknight
04-30-2004, 01:22 PM
Why are you attacking him? He said he knew it didn't matter, just making a comment.

Khabbi
04-30-2004, 01:22 PM
Im sure the Fab 5 would stay longer in Iraq then Spain did , prob do a better job too , rofl

Just kiddin :D

IDFM203
04-30-2004, 01:24 PM
Why US troops have new shoulder pads..............................................................................................................................
I think that’s a great idea.

Lets see how it develops or………

Perhaps issue vests like what we in the IDF have where we have been doing something similar for a while (Not all but a lot of soldiers are issued these vests).

Tell me what you think about this and perhaps this is a good idea for your troops as well?

Unified Ceramic Vest (http://www.isayeret.com/vest/ceramic.htm)

http://www.isayeret.com/vest/main-vest.gif
http://www.isayeret.com/vest/vest-new.jpg


Shalom :D

Fintin
04-30-2004, 01:28 PM
i have see a few US swat team vests that have sholder pads like that...kinda odd that the military is just getting the idea

foxtrot023
04-30-2004, 01:31 PM
Why are you attacking him? He said he knew it didn't matter, just making a comment.

Just having a little fun mate, like Khabbi did with Spain. It is all in good sport.

Jack Mehoff
04-30-2004, 01:33 PM
The most important part of your body, your schlong.

http://www.bulletproofme.com/new%20download%20images/Military-Tactical-Vest.jpg

American Patriot
04-30-2004, 01:38 PM
**** flaps and shoulder pads.

Uncle Sam
04-30-2004, 01:41 PM
http://www.xbox-connection.com/hostedimages/2001914247.jpg

gilgoul
04-30-2004, 01:53 PM
http://community.webshots.com/s/image11/2/88/72/134728872qPShaV_ph.jpg

I sugest you get those kind of integrated vests
Ceramic in front with optional back, the rest paded with kevlar, and integrated pouches and magazine carrying system.
It get s a little heavy after 4 to 5 hours, and is really a bitch in term of mobility (try to drop in an APC or hummer hull, it feels kind of slow).
Otherwise, you really feel safer in those kind of things.
An other thing, always take some water in the pouches reserved for that use, you simply sweat like a pig in those cute outfits)
woot

ibstolidude
04-30-2004, 05:23 PM
i have see a few US swat team vests that have sholder pads like that...kinda odd that the military is just getting the idea
um yea - uh even seen the flak jackets from 20 years ago - just getting the idea huh.

Merik
04-30-2004, 10:50 PM
How much weight do they add? People here dont realize how much this stuff actually weighs after a couple hours of humping it around.

SiFiOn
05-01-2004, 05:32 AM
The Wiley-X Ballistic sunglasses:
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/438_1083403791_wileyxsunglasses.jpg

Good improvements on equipment here, but I agree with Merik. You get loaded with stuff...

weedman
05-01-2004, 06:46 AM
Looks kinda strange... (I mean these pads)

csqnsas
05-01-2004, 06:55 AM
would you sooner lose an arm than sweat and strain that little bit extra??

Rantanplan
05-01-2004, 07:09 AM
Marines need this



http://img1.imageshack.us/img1/1746/smarines.jpg

THE_Dorff
05-01-2004, 08:00 AM
fekkin weirdo wargamers!

these remind me of the old german splinter vest which had those shoulder pads- much akin to the IDF ones...

are they kevler or plate?- plates would be a bitch but kevlar would just be a bit uncomfortable after a while!

SiFiOn
05-01-2004, 08:55 AM
would you sooner lose an arm than sweat and strain that little bit extra??

They say that by every kg that I carry...
...Here a nice radio to talk to your commander, and here a nice radio to talk to your subordinates and here are the batteries that go with them... Oh, you are suppossed to be self-supportive for 48 hours? Here, take these extra batteries. Oh, to prevent that you get shot, here some nice body-armour and kevlar helmet. It's kinda hot out there, doesn't it? Here, also take 5 ltrs of water with you...
In the Dutch army they even switched from the 100 ltr Berghaus:
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/438_1082715381_dsc00266-1.jpg

to the 120 ltr Lowe Alpine, so you can add some more weight....

At some point, the sweating will stop I hope....

Falco
05-01-2004, 09:21 AM
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/Chief_Land_Staff/Clothe_the_soldier/hab/images/Photos/2002.jpg

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/Chief_Land_Staff/Clothe_the_soldier/hab/images/Photos/9018.jpg

The canadian ballistic vest already has the shoulder plates. Why did they put some in the american one in the first place?

Scrim
05-01-2004, 11:49 AM
know it doesn't really matter, but the Marines look like horrible. Theyhave all kinds of different camo patterns and colours. Woodland, Marpat, 3 Colour Desert, Coyote Brown
Dont you see those palms in the background, maybe Im wrong but i think they are green, and Coyote brown is the standard color of gear used with MARPAT.
Good post SiFiOn, when will it stop? I know that we ditched half that **** as soon as the Officers pissed off, now thy got to wear ****ing shoulder pads too, pain in the ass.

Haiw
05-01-2004, 12:02 PM
Where's it gonna end?

http://www.phototrial.it/duegiornidellabrianza/michelin.jpg

gilgoul
05-01-2004, 12:05 PM
would you sooner lose an arm than sweat and strain that little bit extra??

They say that by every kg that I carry...
...Here a nice radio to talk to your commander, and here a nice radio to talk to your subordinates and here are the batteries that go with them... Oh, you are suppossed to be self-supportive for 48 hours? Here, take these extra batteries. Oh, to prevent that you get shot, here some nice body-armour and kevlar helmet. It's kinda hot out there, doesn't it? Here, also take 5 ltrs of water with you...
In the Dutch army they even switched from the 100 ltr Berghaus:
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/438_1082715381_dsc00266-1.jpg

to the 120 ltr Lowe Alpine, so you can add some more weight....

As i said sooner, this kind oequipement can be used only when you re on guard , or mechanized/easy foot patrol.
No way can you hang around with the stuff try to play the acrobat.
let`s say .
3.5 kg of naked weapon unloaded
.5 kg of scopes & battery
8 time 750 gr of magazines so 6 kg
2 liters of water/24 Hours very least
1 Kg of helmet
let s say 2 nades of + 1 smke = 1.250 gr
you are already at 14 kg at the very leaat.
On that you add the vest without the ceramic > around 3.5 kg
+ the ceramic front : 5 to 7 kg
ceramic back 4kg
basically like a turtle carrying its shield, you might be "bullet proof", and only for the first bullet that destroys the ceramic, but you barely move, so no way you` re going to hang around with a back back and extra gear.
(i`m pretty gealous by the way, the Lowe alpine is one of the best back pack ever) :P

At some point, the sweating will stop I hope....

foxtrot023
05-01-2004, 12:08 PM
Where's it gonna end?

http://www.phototrial.it/duegiornidellabrianza/michelin.jpg

Naw, probly something like this:

http://www.knightsandarmor.com/4thofjuly4.jpg

SiFiOn
05-01-2004, 02:01 PM
(i`m pretty gealous by the way, the Lowe alpine is one of the best back pack ever) :P



I totally agree with you gilgoul, except for the point of the Lowe Alpine vs the Berghaus Vulcan. The one you see in the pic is my own. I use it during field excercises. My Lowe Alpine (Army issued) stays in the closet. The hip-belt of the Lowe Alpine is stiffer compared to the belt of the Vulcan, it doesn't give as much support as the Vulcan. (You begin to feel it in your shoulder as more weight is upon them.)

Also a military basic rule can be aplied here: KISS!
The Vulcan is far more easy to fit. Look at all the webbing the Lowe Alpine has...

Don't have a detailed picture from our Lowe Alpine, but here you can see some pics of soldiers who ar equiped with the rucsac. Btw; it is especially developed in coorporation with our Army, this version has for example a pouch in it to put your camelbak in.

http://www.dutchdefencepress.com/photo_pages/smp.htm

I post will post more detailed pics when I've found some.

csqnsas
05-01-2004, 02:21 PM
I agree with all on the weight issue but what else do you carry. How much spare kit.?

Full gortex? Full length sleeping mat? Full rations ? any spare boots and clothing.


On ops you can cut out all that crap.

Ask those who have had to fight in last 30 years .

We are not talking humping up mountains with the SF but walking targets with vehicle support i.e foot soldiers patrolling for 24-48 hrs with logistic backup.

All others are talking about their own military (maybe with some stupid S.O.P's)

Fenna
05-01-2004, 02:25 PM
http://www.knightsandarmor.com/4thofjuly4.jpg

That's what Sixgun Symphony thinks the war on terrorism is about! :roll:

Uninen
05-01-2004, 03:33 PM
This was a good post, about interesting subject, i just wonder why did they make this "armor addition" so that it would be all they way to the elbows? That way the upperbody protection would be almost complete and there wouldnt be a change that you would be shot "trough" your shoulder and arm pit area... (no matter at what angle your arms are at the moment when your hit...)

:|

Haiw
05-01-2004, 03:43 PM
This was a good post, about interesting subject, i just wonder why did they make this "armor addition" so that it would be all they way to the elbows? That way the upperbody protection would be almost complete and there wouldnt be a change that you would be shot "trough" your shoulder and arm pit area... (no matter at what angle your arms are at the moment when your hit...)

:|
I'm no expert, but wouldn't all the way down to the elbows become too restricting on the arms? BTW if you'd really want to protect the entire chest you could make some sort of sideplates at the vest under the arms.

Uninen
05-01-2004, 03:49 PM
I do realize that this way it would be more " restricting", but would it be too " restricting"... dunno.. :|

One must also remember that sometimes some forces have actually chose not to use body armor, even if available... like Chechens did in fightings in Grozny, said that it slowed em down, and the speed and agility was more in demand than protection.... (and what they had was basic body armor.. nothing fancy, but still they felt it was too heavy.)

SiFiOn
05-02-2004, 04:59 AM
I do realize that this way it would be more " restricting", but would it be too " restricting"... dunno.. :|

One must also remember that sometimes some forces have actually chose not to use body armor, even if available... like Chechens did in fightings in Grozny, said that it slowed em down, and the speed and agility was more in demand than protection.... (and what they had was basic body armor.. nothing fancy, but still they felt it was too heavy.)

I've read an article in the latest edition of SOF that reported about EOD teams in Afghanistan. They we're hunting terrorists and worked together with trained Afghan's, called MRF (****ounce MURF), Mobile Reaction Force. The Afghans wouldn't use body-armour, according to the reporter it was all about a pride thing... Also a reason not to wear body-armour... :backhand:

gilgoul
05-02-2004, 06:48 AM
Let`s say that as usual, BA class 4+ is not the panacea, and we have to always take in consideration the secific need of the mission.
If ceramique were smaller, lighter and articulate, i`d be ceramic all the way.But it`s not the case, and as you pointed out, in urban environement, agility seems to be the most important point, and full fledged protection is more a handicap due to the weight.
I tried recently different equpement in different situation, and went to these conclusions :

_ if on a static, MG, check point, ponctual disembarkement from aN APC or jeep, always wear the best protection avaible, even if it weight an other 10 kilos on your back.
You can keep your extra ammo and at least half of water in the cvehicle, or static post.
-If on regular 2/4 hours patrol on easy/moderate terrain, like in street patrol, wear the full protection too, most of the case of fatalities in those kind of operation came from short range automatic fire, often in the back.
That is were full protection is needed.
_If on search/arrest job, wear the light ceramic protection, like the american one, but only with the strrictly necessary equipement for the surtion of the job.
All other situation, especially if doing some hit and run (wich you re not supposed to do anyway), long range foot patrol ( that beside for the SAS like units has no real tactical use in todays warfare), and some long autonomy team sized op, I don`t really see where the need is for a full fledged protection, but a kevlar like light vest is always an option, because it is too dumb to be WIA or KIA by some low velocity projectile while even a class 2 would protect.
woot