Michael Moore takes Ground Zero responders to Cuba for treatment!

[chuckster]

New York Post exclusive, it should turn your stomach:

"April 15, 2007 -- Filmmaker Michael Moore's production company took ailing Ground Zero responders to Cuba in a stunt aimed at showing that the U.S. health-care system is inferior to Fidel Castro's socialized medicine, according to several sources with knowledge of the trip.

The trip was to be filmed as part of the controversial director's latest documentary, "Sicko," an attack on American drug companies and HMOs that Moore hopes to debut at the Cannes Film Festival next month. "

Here's the link:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/04152007/news/worldnews/moores_sicko_stunt_worldnews_janon_fisher.htm

What can I say, the article speaks for itself. To me the phrases that explain what he is up to the most are 'socialized medicine', and 'Cannes Film Festival'. If you ask me, Michael Moore is the 'Sicko'.

[Roids]

Wonder what's next in his list in hopes of that people will agree on forming his little fascist state.

[SBL]

Oh, is he still around?p-)

[Roids]

Yeah he is even looking to build up on his original tripe with Fahrenheit 9/11½.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_9/11%C2%BD

[bluffcove]

Wonder what's next in his list in hopes of that people will agree on forming his little fascist state.

Was that even English?
Since when have Cuba and Fascism been aligned?

9 / 11 first responders were not harmed by communists, if a socialist government can care for injured people harmed in an attack launched by a mutual enemy then why shouldnt they?

Stating (or proving) the US has a poor healthcare system is no bad thing, if it is true. Moore has a right to free speech, which I presume no one on this site would query!

[WarriorMonk]

socialized medicine/universal healthcare is something that needs to be implemented EXTREMELY carefully for a state. as each state has a different culture(s) and mindsets in it, one good thing for a state may work poorly for another.

[bluffcove]

helping people on low incomes to recieve medical attention! thats verging on charity - and charity is one step away from communism!

You arent a communist are you?

[Roids]

Maybe a bad choice of wording when I chose "fascist". After I watched "Bowling for columbine", I don't take anything Moore produces seriously.

[name already taken]

Well, infant mortality rate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate) id 6.43/1000 births for USA against 6.22/1000 for Cuba.

Cuba 1, Usa 0. But not by much.

Where Cuba scores way above USA is that such a little and "poor" country assumes full fiscal and administrative responsibility for the health care needs of all its citizens, providing free preventive, curative, and rehabilitation services (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/review/review_summer_02/677cuba.html) without going belly up, according to wide eyed admirative students of the Harvard School of Public Health.

If the Harvard School of Public Health encourages its students to study the Cuban National Health System, you can be sure Michael Moore will use it as much as he can for propaganda purposes, because he, as the rest of the population, and contrary to the military, has to richly grease the Insurance system and all its middle men to get medical attention.

Showing even Cuba can do without this and absolutely free should get right into the belly of the current system and show everyone how much they get screwed with it.

So for Michael Moore it's business as usual and the only ones who must fear him are the big fat Insurance companies who collect everybody and who control the medical industry in their favor in the USA.

Who wants to save that ?

[Dakota435]

Well, infant mortality rate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate) id 6.50/1000 births for USA against 6.33/1000 for Cuba.

Cuba 1, Usa 0. But not by much.

Where Cuba scores way above USA is that such a little and "poor" country assumes full fiscal and administrative responsibility for the health care needs of all its citizens, providing free preventive, curative, and rehabilitation services (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/review/review_summer_02/677cuba.html) without going belly up, according to wide eyed admirative students of the Harvard School of Public Health.

If the Harvard School of Public Health encourages its students to study the Cuban National Health System, you can be sure Michael Moore will use it as much as he can for propaganda purposes, because he, as the rest of the population, and contrary to the military, has to richly grease the Insurance system and all its middle men to get medical attention.

Showing even Cuba can do without this and absolutely free should get right into the belly of the current system and show everyone how much they get screwed with it.

So for Michael Moore it's business as usual and the only ones who must fear him are the big fat Insurance companies who collect everybody and who control the medical industry in their favor in the USA.

Who wants to save that ?

You believe the statistics of a totalitarian state?????

[name already taken]

You believe the statistics of a totalitarian state?????
It's not Cuban statistics it's CIA (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html) statistics.

And if Harvard believes them, Why shouldn't I ?

[Henry's Fork]

Using sick people to further ones agenda is quite disgusting.

That said, i wonder if Moore was privy to see the real Cuban hospitals?

http://www.gwumc.edu/globalmd/cuba.htm

[name already taken]

Using sick people to further ones agenda is quite disgusting.

That said, i wonder if Moore was privy to see the real Cuban hospitals?

http://www.gwumc.edu/globalmd/cuba.htm
HMOs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_maintenance_organization) use sick people in the US to make billions.

It's about time someone (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/review/review_summer_02/677cuba.html) shows some different way of access to medical treatment.

Michael Moore isn't the only one.

[Henry's Fork]

Isnt that what business do? They make money. Be it medical, food, cars, whatever.

Using sick people like what MM is doing to further a political agenda while not being entirely truthful about things, on the other hand is wrong.

The truth is, that Cuba is not the rosy little socialist utopia that you and MM are trying to make out as.

Thing is, i personally know of at least a half dozen medical professionals here alone in California, who would have taken upon his or her self to help a 9/11 ground zero responder who needs medical help. For free. Why the need to go to Cuba?

So dont get on me for not buying into MM and Cubas whitewashing of things.

[Zuze]

You can hate Cuba but you can't deny fact that Cuba has best health care in whole Latin America. Free health care and free education are the only good things in communism. Not everything in USSR was bad as well :) After fall of USSR that was shock for their inhabitants to realize how bad education system is in west. For example level of mathematics in soviet school grade 9 was equal to mathematics level in western university.

[Zuze]

Isnt that what business do? They make money. Be it medical, food, cars, whatever.



It's sad that you think that medical care should be "business". Thank God we in Europe think differently.

[PPSH41]

I won't disagree that the health insurance and pharm. companies are crooked and exploiting the population. But I sure as heck don't want some national health care plan. Relying too much on someone else, or the government, for your health and safety is just asking for it IMO.

[name already taken]

I won't disagree that the health insurance and pharm. companies are crooked and exploiting the population. But I sure as heck don't want some national health care plan. Relying too much on someone else, or the government, for your health and safety is just asking for it IMO.
And when you rely on a HMO business, that's not someone else ?

Sorry but Robinson Crusoe never existed anywhere else than in a book.

You will not escape the fact you will have to rely on someone else all your life with such an argument.

[Thor]

You can hate Cuba but you can't deny fact that Cuba has best health care in whole Latin America.
Most of it is a propaganda stunt, a fasad.


Free health care and free education are the only good things in communism.
There is no such thing as a free lunch, there is always someone who have to pick up the tab. And in the end you always get what you pay for.


After fall of USSR that was shock for their inhabitants to realize how bad education system is in west. For example level of mathematics in soviet school grade 9 was equal to mathematics level in western university.
How come russian scientists in general weren't/aren't wanted in the west then? E.g. unlike professionals from many other countries russian M.D. can't afaik work here even after taking extra courses designed for people with degrees from other countries. They have to start all over again (but most likely won't be accepted for that either).

Secondly, the educational systems vary a lot in the west. E.g. here Gymnasium (High School) equals College in anglo countries.

[Jobu]

It's sad that you think that medical care should be "business". Thank God we in Europe think differently.

It's sad that you think the government should run the healthcare industry. Thank God we in America think differently.

[PPSH41]

And when you rely on a HMO business, that's not someone else ?

Sorry but Robinson Crusoe never existed anywhere else than in a book.

You will not escape the fact you will have to rely on someone else all your life with such an argument.

I believe I said relying on them "too much" is bad, not that having health insurance is bad. But I'm not going to bet my life on them being there to take care of me when I need it most.

[Snoshi]

Not this moron again.. I want to see him make a movie about how people get fat.. He can bash american food that he loves.

[Zuze]

How come russian scientists in general weren't/aren't wanted in the west then?
Check your data. In early 90ties there were thousands of soviet scientists which moved to US.

[Zuze]

It's sad that you think the government should run the healthcare industry. Thank God we in America think differently.

Problem is that you healtcare system is NOT effective. National Healthcare not only cover more people but it's also more cost effective and provides equal or often even better results as we can see from statistics.

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/9882/hc1wp8.jpg
http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/9004/hc2pe6.jpg

[Dakota435]

HMOs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_maintenance_organization) use sick people in the US to make billions.

It's about time someone (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/review/review_summer_02/677cuba.html) shows some different way of access to medical treatment.

Michael Moore isn't the only one.

Up here in our little Canadian health care utopia, being over 50, I live in fear of getting the wrong disease, one with a long waiting list. When that happens there are no other options except going south and paying cash. When it works up here, it's great. When it doesn't, it's awful. Here in Quebec it DOESN'T work very well. I'm sure it's fine in Alberta, awash in petro dollars.

It seems to me to be far more immoral to ration care by deliberately restricting supply than by economic forces.

[DANJANOU]

Ah yeah the myth of Cuba’s all superior free medical system. Like a lot of things it looks good in theory, in reality… well not so good. Kind of like Canada's sacred cow.

Yes Cuba has stated sponsored health care for all and back before the Soviets pulled pole in the late 1980’s and the economy went into a tail spin it did exist.

Since the advent of the “Special Period” which is basically a wartime economy complete with ration books for such luxuries as food gasoline and clothing, lets say that the “free medical system” is now in the toilet. Yes access is still free, but that’s about it. That temporary emergency special period has now been in place in excess of 18 years BTW.

Cuba now has a two tiered health care system. You have access to “hard currency" Formally US Dollars now CUCs (Cuban Convertible Pesos) then up to the head of the line at one of the “International Clinics.” Great if you’re a tourists foreign business type or Government muckity muck.

Poor Companero with Moneida Nacional Pesos then drag your poor ass to the main hospital or regional clinic where the only thing they’re not short of, or completely out, of is patients and waiting lists.

My Second trip there in 1994 I was on an eco tour up in the Escambrays and one of the other tourists got hurt, broken arm and a few other scrapes and scratches IIRC. I had my medical kit in my ruck so myself and another guy patched her up, sprinted the arm etc and helped get her down the mountain to the nearest town (Trinidad) and into the clinic there.

While waiting for the Docs to set it (paid for in US Dollars BTW) I took a look around and decided to see if I could get replacements for the splint, triangular bandage, band aids, Tylenols and alcohol swabs etc. I’d expended. Hell they had almost nothing in there, and I probably had more with me in my small kit.

End of that trip I ended up donating most of the contents of my FA kit to a very grateful local Doctor. Thirteen years later and 20 odd trips to la Isla Bonita (business/vacation) and I almost always leave with an empty FA kit.

In 2003 the wife and I were staying at a luxury resort down there for our wedding anniversary . One night I was sick as a dog and she called the hotel Doctor. He wouldn’t even agree to come to the room until it was confirmed the $20.00 US consultation feed would be paid in cash. I think it was another $20.00 for the shot he gave. Mild case of food poisoning, which incidentally he denied, claiming I had a bug, because of course no one could get food poisoning at a Cuban restaurant. BTW that Hotel was Canadian/Cuban run.

I’d say little brother Raoul is going along with this little publicity stunt of Moore’s for the propaganda possibilities alone. Look for plenty of coverage in Granma. Fidel did the same in 1993-94 when he agreed to trat a bunch of kids from Chernobyl,even if it meant more of his own went without, so he could show the world media the triumph of Cuba's socialist medicine.

No problem to order the Docs at one of the hard currency clinics set up for medical tourisim to treat these guys. The med staff are paid in Moneida Nacional (equivalent to $20-30.00 US a month wages) and never see the hard currency anyway.

[Jobu]

Problem is that you healtcare system is NOT effective. National Healthcare not only cover more people but it's also more cost effective and provides equal or often even better results as we can see from statistics.


Statistics are meaningless in this case.

I'd rather pay more for the best quality healthcare immediately than pay less and have to wait 14 weeks to get hospital care which may or may not be so stellar.

So while you're dying of heart failure waiting in line to get treated, I'll be getting that bypass.

[chas]

So while you're dying of heart failure waiting in line to get treated, I'll be getting that bypass.

OK; but when you get ruined, Ill still get the bypass, while they kick you out as they see you wont pay the bills in a long time...

[Dakota435]

While Mike's people will no doubt go to one of Havana's show hospitals for foreigners, here's an expose of REAL Cuban health care by the Brazilian magazine Gentiuno:

Follow the link for pics. Below is the somewhat awkward Google translation of the intro text.

http://www.gentiuno.com/articulo.asp?articulo=2167


As once Gonzalo Guimaraens already wrote, under the title “communist Cuba: the miserabilismo as atheism school” we copy very textually its reflection here to initiate this horrifying count graphical that today we will offer all those that they want and they do not want to see the farsante reality of the generating Revolution of horrors that has been the tyranny of Castro and its minions. Gonzalo Guimaraens says: ”… the miserabilismo is imposed in the island-jail like a philosophical option and a model of life, and not merely like fruit of a disastrous economic situation, as it could think; philosophical option, as it will be seen, defended by spokesmen of the regime, “blessed” by theologians of the liberation and praised in important document of the Cuban episcopado one.”

With photographies of one of its more emblematic hospitals of the Cuban capital: the “clinical Surgical one”, very known for being the center where more transplants of kidneys have been carried out in Cuba… without success, we initiated here what will be to be to undress of one of the great lies that zafios have sold to accomplices and estultos at world-wide level.

Photographies: Maria Elena Morejón
Description of the premises: Carlos Wotzkow

Room of reception of “Urgencies” in the Surgical “Clinical” hospital of Havana. Just next to the Bidet of Paulina (more well-known like the Luminous Source for the been born ones after the 59).

[Geezah]

Having had allot more experience(yrs wise) with National Health in the Uk than I have the medical system here, National Health blows chunks.
It sucks and as someone metioned you get what you pay for, as there is no such thing as free, if you work a legal 40hr week.

I have allot more confidence in the medical system here and while my insurance will not pick up the complete tab, I have no problems digging into my own pocket to make sure it's done right the first time.

[Jobu]

OK; but when you get ruined, Ill still get the bypass, while they kick you out as they see you wont pay the bills in a long time...

Not much chance of me being ruined. I invest conservatively so the odds of losing everything and not being able to afford healthcare are slim to none. I'd say there's a better chance of your socialist government collapsing and you losing access to your tax-funded wait in line.

[Hollis]

Chas you have a strange view of health care in the US, it is not ALL or Nothing.

CBC had a good special on some of the problems with the Health care in Canada. Yes the US has it's problems.

It seem "rich" in either country does not have a problem. Comrade Michael Moore does not have either. He is more than rich enough, he makes a lot of money selling it's great to be a member poor down trodden masses as he fly his private charter plane to Havana.

[Dakota435]

Chas you have a strange view of health care in the US, it is not ALL or Nothing.

CBC had a good special on some of the problems with the Health care in Canada. Yes the US has it's problems.

It seem "rich" in either country does not have a problem. Comrade Michael Moore does not have either. He is more than rich enough, he makes a lot of money selling it's great to be a member poor down trodden masses as he fly his private charter plane to Havana.

The problem in Canada is/was that the gov't (Liberal ones generally) made it an ideological dictum that there shall be no private care allowed. This resulted in truly absurd scenes like the Ontario government forcing the shutdown of the use MRI machines that were being used for paying customers during IDLE periods. Fortunately there was a recent Supreme Court ruling that banning private care violated constitutional guarantees of "security of the person", and private facilities are starting to appear.

Canada was one of the last western countries to stick to government insurance only. Just about everywhere else has mixed systems, (including the US which has what amounts to public insurance for seniors and the poor; the debate now is really over the ratio of private to public insurance).

Where I am we get the hell taxed out of us for only middling quality and if I paid 10k a year less in taxes and then had to buy private coverage I'm not sure that would be a bad thing.

[nognig]

Problem is that you healtcare system is NOT effective. National Healthcare not only cover more people but it's also more cost effective and provides equal or often even better results as we can see from statistics.


Do you know why the US system is so much more expensive? Because of the high level of care.

I've live in both a national health system (Canada) and the US system and I can say without a doubt, the US system is of a far higher quality. In Canada you can wait up to 2 year for orthopedic surgery. In the US the wait is non-existant. That is only one example.

I should note that plenty of Canadians go to the US for healthcare, I certainly haven't heard of any going the other direction.

NN

[DANJANOU]

It is understood that it is holy writ amongst the Natural Ruling Party (lieberals), Smilin Jack Layton the Patron Saint of the Sound bite and the MSM that our free socialized healthcare is superior to that offered by our misguided cousins to the south of the 49th, despite whatever “minor” problems there are with it.

Said minor problems are all the course the fault of such US style Neo Cons like Chainsaw Mike Harris, Ralph Petro Dollars Kline and now Stephen Harper. Sometime as trivial as facts shouldn’t stand in the way of this.

Incidentally this is not the first time the Happy Meal that walks like a man decided to engage in a little bashing of the US Healthcare system using Cuba. Way back in his pre Bowling for Columbine days he had a TV series on first NBC and then believe it or not Fox. One segment was entitled:

Health Care Olympics
TV Nation creates a contest for three different healthcare systems to see which system provides the best care. Competing countries are the United States, Canada, and Cuba. Special guests Bob Costas and Ahmad Rashad call play-by-play during the contest.

http://www.dogeatdogfilms.com/tv/tvarchive.html

I actually remember watching it and as I recall the US system did not fair well compared to the other two. Of course Moore is a master of selective editing who also won't let little things like the facts get in the way of his tirade.

[Kaapeli]

Do you know why the US system is so much more expensive? Because of the high level of care.

I've live in both a national health system (Canada) and the US system and I can say without a doubt, the US system is of a far higher quality. In Canada you can wait up to 2 year for orthopedic surgery. In the US the wait is non-existant. That is only one example.

I should note that plenty of Canadians go to the US for healthcare, I certainly haven't heard of any going the other direction.

NN

Well here's a some doubt for you because the statistics on healthcare efficiency and results tell otherwise. Canadian healthcare gives atleast equal and often superior results compared to US heatlhcare system on most indicators (life expectancy, child/maternal/cancer/heart disease mortality rates etc.), for the entire population and significantly cheaper. Plus according to polls Canadians are happier with their healthcare and it's quality than US citizens with theirs.
Of course in the USA you can propably get non-critical healthcare faster but you'll also have to pay for it more.

[Mr.Flint]

Jack Layton went for a surgery to a private clinicrofl

Yeah free health care rules..... not.
A friend of mine had kidney stones moving out, he waited for ten hours in the hospital to get some sort of care - a request for an urologist was answered "Not available and wont be in forseeable future". Thats Canadian free health care for you...
i got a whole bunch of stories of how great canadian healthcare is...

[PPSH41]

Well here's a some doubt for you because the statistics on healthcare efficiency and results tell otherwise. Canadian healthcare gives atleast equal and often superior results compared to US heatlhcare system on most indicators (life expectancy, child/maternal/cancer/heart disease mortality rates etc.), for the entire population and significantly cheaper. Plus according to polls Canadians are happier with their healthcare and it's quality than US citizens with theirs.
Of course in the USA you can propably get non-critical healthcare faster but you'll also have to pay for it more.

First I'll say that people in the US gripe about everything. We gripe about taxes too...which are ALOT lower than in Canada. We also have a huge part of our population coming in to their 50s and 60s, eating fast food everyday, and expecting their health insurance to fix the problems from it. We're coming up on a big problem with healthcare and social security as we will have more people drawing from it than we have paying in.

And as far as paying more...I can asure you that adding 20% to income tax is going to take a whole lot more out of my paycheck than the relatively small out of pocket cost for care.

[Calanen]

New York Post exclusive, it should turn your stomach:

"April 15, 2007 -- Filmmaker Michael Moore's production company took ailing Ground Zero responders to Cuba in a stunt aimed at showing that the U.S. health-care system is inferior to Fidel Castro's socialized medicine, according to several sources with knowledge of the trip.

The trip was to be filmed as part of the controversial director's latest documentary, "Sicko," an attack on American drug companies and HMOs that Moore hopes to debut at the Cannes Film Festival next month. "

Here's the link:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/04152007/news/worldnews/moores_sicko_stunt_worldnews_janon_fisher.htm

What can I say, the article speaks for itself. To me the phrases that explain what he is up to the most are 'socialized medicine', and 'Cannes Film Festival'. If you ask me, Michael Moore is the 'Sicko'.

I don't like or agree with Michael Moore, and this is a cheap stunt, as his stunts often are.

However, it does highlight something about the US which is deadset accurate - the health care regime over there is amazing, best medical care you will obtain in the entire world. If you can afford it, and if you do not have medical insurance, then, you can't. That's something that should change. One of the wealthiest countries in the world needs to bring the drug companies and HMOs under control, and provide a basic minimum healthcare standard to its working poor.

The same thing applies to a lesser extent with dental care in Australia. Ordinary working people cannot afford it in Australia, which means that people just do not go to the dentist unless they absolutely have to. I know of people pulling their own teeth with pliars because they cant afford the trip to the dentist. That just should not happen.

[Klatuu]

You can hate Cuba but you can't deny fact that Cuba has best health care in whole Latin America. Free health care and free education are the only good things in communism. Not everything in USSR was bad as well :) After fall of USSR that was shock for their inhabitants to realize how bad education system is in west. For example level of mathematics in soviet school grade 9 was equal to mathematics level in western university.

Selling Cuba by saying "Best health care in Latin America" is a bit like trying to pick up a girl by saying "I had biggest **** in kindergarten". Good line, Sparky.

What kind of people are so bereft of judgment that they praise a system that preserves the body but destroys the spirit? I thought people like this only existed in novels. I'm all for looking on the bright side, but "good thing about communism"? What's good about that? There's something good about death, too, I guess. The sun doesn't make your eyee hurt. Because you're DEAD. Yeehaa.

Communists educate so that they may indoctrinate, and no other reason is anything but an afterthought. One cannot read what one wishes, and one certainly may not write what one wishes. A government-educated mind in a government proscribed prison for that mind is like some ancient mythical torture of Hell.

The Russian are great at math, but up until a few years ago most of them didn't practice so rudimentary a thing as double-entry bookkeeping, not that many of them had any use for a ledger. The point of education and health care is to improve the human condition, not a end unto themselves, and when made so constitute a egregious case of horse-before-the-cart. "I can do multivariate calculus in my head, but I wipe my ass with my hand, and I've never had a steak or owned my own home". Sign me up.

Why is it all Communist countries have to put up barriers and machineguns to keep their people from leaving? The same reason prisons do?

[Dakota435]

Who cares, I mean the responders did not have to go if they did not want to...even if it is "propaganda", I mean alot of people on this site cite a whitehouse spokesmans soundbites as fact - what do you think this is ?(spin=propaganda)

Can some of you accept the truth that other countries may have something better than in the US...idiots!

A lot of the time it's the other way around with foreigners telling Amerians "We have free health care, nyaaaa nyaaaa nyanya nyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa... we're better than yuoooo-ooo". In Canada it's a national pastime.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Using sick people to further ones agenda is quite disgusting.Well just wait until the run up to the presidential elections then you will see a whole lot of photo ops with injured US troops.

[Liptow]

Free health care and free education are the only good things in communism.

How to explain that our average life was 10-15 years shorter than in Western countries? Soviet Union was even worse.

[martinexsquaddie]

my brothers worked in both the NHS and the US systems
US looks brilliant if you can afford just don't be poor or old or get something chronic then your fubared
nhs will save your life chronic and etc can do just don't expect a private bed and happy smiley staff.
been to a&e patched up inside 20 mins cost nadda same with partner broken foot in out outside of an hour comes out of National insurance everyone pays everyone is covered unlike the US system that will bankrupt the working poor but the truly indigent get treated anyway and you pay for there treatment anyway.
cuba's a nasty tyranny but compared with some of the "friends" of the US in that region its a hell of a lot better place to live

[Jobu]

You gotta love Cuba. A country of 11 million people in a land roughly the size of Pennsylvania whose government can afford free health care for its people but can't afford food or electricity half the time.

[phoebus]

You gotta love Cuba. A country of 11 million people in a land roughly the size of Pennsylvania whose government can afford free health care for its people but can't afford food or electricity half the time.

I'd be very interested to read on the power shortage problems in Cuba. Are there any reliable sources ?

[RICHICOQUI]

http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm this old cuban man at a state hospital http://www.therealcuba.com/kubaa463.jpg

[chuckster]

http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm this old cuban man at a state hospital http://www.therealcuba.com/kubaa463.jpg


Hey, what's there to complain about? It's free, isn't it?

[Calanen]

You gotta love Cuba. A country of 11 million people in a land roughly the size of Pennsylvania whose government can afford free health care for its people but can't afford food or electricity half the time.

It will be a good day for everyone when that Communist regime eventually falls. Cuba if it ran casinos again, would be an absolute tourist mecca.

[Kant]

Being very accident ****e, and having been treated in both the U.S private system and the Australian public system, I can say without a doubt that I would chose the treatment I received in Australia any day of the week.

I was checked by the specialist, had my operation and was out of hospital one week after the injury, and walked out with no bill.
In the U.S I had a one and a half week wait, with the same result surgery wise, but I paid $4,000 for the pleasure.

If the U.S has the greatest health care system in the world, then you are welcome to it. I'll stay in backwards Australia and spend my money on hookers ,weed and other important things.

[Calanen]

Being very accident ****e, and having been treated in both the U.S private system and the Australian public system, I can say without a doubt that I would chose the treatment I received in Australia any day of the week.



Mine was the complete reverse. I was treated at the VA in San Diego, and at La Mesa Hospital, and received the best care I've ever received anywhere...no sullen grumpy angry nurses and doctors, but instead people who were friendly and professional. Cost me an arm and a leg, but the treatment was excellent. In Australia, I am used to waiting forever in waiting rooms, having aggressive angry sullen staff who are abusive and rude, not being treated often but told to 'suck it up'. Being told no doctor is available, come back in a few days.

I broke my right arm, compound fracture. It needed to be set. I was made to wait 5 hours before I saw anyone. Then when I did see someone, the nurse told me no doctors were available because it was Friday afternoon. Come back on Monday morning though. Oh, its ok, we'll give you some panadeine for the pain. My father pulled strings to get one of his friends off the golf course to set my arm. If I was any other schmuck, I would have been nursing a compound fractured arm with a headache pill over the weekend.

On another occassion, I was having difficulty breathing because of an allergic reaction to medication. The nurse told the doctor in front of me 'hes faking breathing difficulties, but he can obviously breathe otherwise he'd be dead.' I told them what medication I was on, said it was recently prescribed, and that it may be causing this...oh no they said, I was just a hypocondriac. So I keep taking the medication, and the same thing happens again - the most intense breathing stoppages, gasping for air. I tell my uncle (a psychiatrist) who says that its a known side effect of the medication - which could have killed me....

The Australian hospital system is a *Joke* with a capital J compared to the excellent service I got in the USA. At least in NSW, I cant speak for other states, I have never been treated there.

[VetsandVettes]

Hmmm...
It will let me post reply but not quote, so I'll copy/paste I guess...

"You can hate Cuba but you can't deny fact that Cuba has best health care in whole Latin America. Free health care and free education are the only good things in communism. Not everything in USSR was bad as well :-) After fall of USSR that was shock for their inhabitants to realize how bad education system is in west. For example level of mathematics in soviet school grade 9 was equal to mathematics level in western university."

Yep. Although I don't go for all of Moore's portrayals, he did make some good points here and there that were backed up by actual footage.
Cuba does have an extremely high literacy rate, everyone can read at a young age, speak often two languages, go to University for free, get medical for free. In Canada, we have a credit card you just hand over at a Doctor's or hospital and forget the bill. Problem is, taxes are very high for this.
I have to give Castro credit for taking care of his people. I love it there and spent 3 weeks this winter wandering around Havana and Veradero. Very safe, nice people, no crime, better than Mexico (or Florida) and not anal about a lot of the things Canada is with the PC crap.

[DANJANOU]

I'd be very interested to read on the power shortage problems in Cuba. Are there any reliable sources ?

With an excess of 20 Cuban entry/exit stamps in my Passport would you consider me a reliable source?

Rolling brown outs and even blackouts are the daily norm in Cuba. on really bad days even the rather isolated resorts are affected, although the newere ones now have back up generators to keep some lights on.

There's a reason my maglight is always in my travel bag on trips there, and in the old days I'd take a dozen or so cheap dollar store flashlights to give away to friends etc.

[name already taken]

With an excess of 20 Cuban entry/exit stamps in my Passport would you consider me a reliable source?

Rolling brown outs and even blackouts are the daily norm in Cuba. on really bad days even the rather isolated resorts are affected, although the newere ones now have back up generators to keep some lights on.

There's a reason my maglight is always in my travel bag on trips there, and in the old days I'd take a dozen or so cheap dollar store flashlights to give away to friends etc.
Confirmed in the CIA world factbook: ...Havana continued to invest in the country's energy sector to mitigate electrical blackouts that have plagued the country since 2004. (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html)

[Hollis]

Comrade Moore would just be another sugar cain harvester in Cuban and not be so FAT. I guess the indulgences of living in the USA and eating enough for a entire Cuban city in a day wasn't enough for him. I hope the Cuban people don't have to feed Moore.

[name already taken]

Comrade Moore would just be another sugar cain harvester in Cuban and not be so FAT. I guess the indulgences of living in the USA and eating enough for a entire Cuban city in a day wasn't enough for him. I hope the Cuban people don't have to feed Moore.
Comrade Moore is presently producing a movie about the sicko medical system in the USA.

That's why he brought some ground zero people to be treated there.

The film has been selected to be part of the main program of this year's Cannes Film Festival (http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mikeinthenews/index.php?id=9626).

So it's safe to say the Cuban people won't have to feed Moore anytime soon.


http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2238/mikeinsickohx0.jpg (http://www.michaelmoore.com/)

[VetsandVettes]

With an excess of 20 Cuban entry/exit stamps in my Passport would you consider me a reliable source?

Rolling brown outs and even blackouts are the daily norm in Cuba. on really bad days even the rather isolated resorts are affected, although the newere ones now have back up generators to keep some lights on.

There's a reason my maglight is always in my travel bag on trips there, and in the old days I'd take a dozen or so cheap dollar store flashlights to give away to friends etc.

I take a few flashlights and stuff too. Those crank style LED ones are a really nice gift down there, for like 10 bucks. They don't stamp passports anymore there, I've been going yearly at least since 1998 and have never had my passport stamped. They do this so Uncle Sam won't screw over the Yanks for indulging in a little forbidden pleasure. Instead, they give you a Tourist Card and a departure tax coupon.
I haven't experienced a true power outage there since '98 in Playa del Este and I don't always stay in AI's either. I think they're getting their **** together a bit more in that respect, but man, Havana is startin' to crumble big time now...
Good to meet another adventuring Amigo...

[DANJANOU]

I know they don’t stamp Passports, aside from that funky little airplane stamp, unless of course you specifically ask them too, but you get the idea. Economic reforms there come in waves like the blackouts.

The place was a hell hole in 93 early 94 when bars of soap and packs of Marlboroughs were the accepted currency while booting around Santiago Province. US dollars were forbidden and going for 50-100 Pesos to one Dollar on the Black Market. *** tourists from North America and the US had just discovered the place and where beginning gotr swmap the place too.

A few years later things had improved and the black market rate was down to 30-35 to 1 then Castro went on another rampage after the Papal Visit and locked up 10,000 odd “Jinteros.”

Again things calmed down, small business passed on the old illegal Casa and Paladores began to emerge and overall things improved until a couple of years back when he took the place off of the US Dollar as the hard currency and replaced it with the CUC to combat black market activities and drug money laundering.

[VetsandVettes]

Even Canuckbucks are desired now when 10 years ago they would look at a blue Canadian 5 in utter bewilderment. They are a resourceful batch of rascals. I fell kind of hard for a Tropicana dancer last month down there and asked if she wanted to visit Canada and she said "Nope, too cold!"
Some might be surprised how many are actually happy there and patriotic.
Everyone has a little something going on the side alright.

[VetsandVettes]

Ever scope out Gitmo on Google Earth? That must drive Fidel nuts...

[California Joe]

My Dad used to fly down there from Miami for 15 bucks round trip and gamble and whore around before Fidel. He probably hung around with DANJANOU.

I think anyone with sense would agree that the US system is far from perfect but there is a frigging happy medium out there somewhere in the ether between ours and Cubas. That's like flying to Mexico just to drink the water.

[Dakota435]

My Dad used to fly down there from Miami for 15 bucks round trip and gamble and whore around before Fidel. He probably hung around with DANJANOU.

I think anyone with sense would agree that the US system is far from perfect but there is a frigging happy medium out there somewhere in the ether between ours and Cubas. That's like flying to Mexico just to drink the water.

Isn't it funny how universal health care is used by the lib left as way to excuse dictatorship? Castro may be a dictator who has ruined his country over 45 years, but Cuba has free healthcare and education, so that's ok. It was simply not possible to have free healthcare and education AND a democratic government, they seem to be saying. Bizzare.

[California Joe]

Bottom line is, there are a lot of smart people out there that could probably devise a system of universal healthcare that would work as intended and make most rational people happy. But it will always be at the whim of politicians and lobbyists and business interests that are interested in the bottom line, not on the betterment of society as a whole. That's the price we, as individuals, pay.

[DANJANOU]

Bottom line is, there are a lot of smart people out there that could probably devise a system of universal healthcare that would work as intended and make most rational people happy.


Up here we call them the Quebec and Alberta Governments. Both Provinces have two tier systems. Basic free service for everyone, and for those willing to pay more either through work place insurance plans or out of their own pocket there are the extra services and/or preferred treatment.

Vetts try showing her pictures of the Bata Shoe Museum. You know Cuban woman and their shoes. That place is like mecca for females of the local exile community. :)

BTW CJ I was checking through my records and came across your old mans tab for beers and ahem "other services" at the Shanghai Theatre and Pacifico Hotel. I covere dhim that night ans he said he pay me back. with interest it comes to........

[California Joe]

Haha, my old man was a piece of work. Had me when he was 50, (and I'm the oldest of 3) hung out in Miami back in the day, his best pal owned the Boston Braves, he worked on the Alaskan Highway, joined the Mile High Club in 1932.....A real character. I miss him. As for that beer tab, if you ever make it down this way I'll make good....and take you fishing...:)

[VetsandVettes]

Isn't it funny how universal health care is used by the lib left as way to excuse dictatorship? Castro may be a dictator who has ruined his country over 45 years, but Cuba has free healthcare and education, so that's ok. It was simply not possible to have free healthcare and education AND a democratic government, they seem to be saying. Bizzare.

I wouldn't consider Canada a dictatorship...
I'm pretty sure I voted a while back. I do agree with a 2-tier system though. Here, because it's "free", the Doctor's waiting room is full of the elderly looking at it as a social visit (looking for something to do) and all manner of uneccessary burden that even a $10 per visit fee would discourage. I feel if I've got the cash to pursue faster treatment that would in fact lessen the burden on the regular system it would be a win-win. Problem is that here the systen is run inefficiently, lots of tax waste.
Cuba has tons of Doctors pulling in $30 US a month due to the education costs and that's why Chavez can make these oil-for-treatment deals...

[Jobu]

Michael Moore is loved by foreigners because he embodies the very worst stereotypes they attribute to us.

He's rich, fat, obnoxious, gluttonous, and a moron.

[VetsandVettes]

DANJANOU; Go back much? I will hold off until next winter now, finally in the 20C range here today and just dragged the hog out for a spin...
Here is the Plaza de Armas in Havana a couple of weeks ago when I was there showing the pieces of the downed U2 spy plane and a SAM from the bad old days. Proudly displayed for the touristas...
Sometimes I think he goes a bit overboard.

[VetsandVettes]

Michael Moore is loved by foreigners because he embodies the very worst stereotypes they attribute to us.

He's rich, fat, obnoxious, gluttonous, and a moron.

I don't think everyone swallows all his opinions. For example, when he told everyone in Bowling that no Canadians locked their doors in Windsor I knew he was lying...

[name already taken]

Michael Moore is loved by foreigners because he embodies the very worst stereotypes they attribute to us.

He's rich, fat, obnoxious, gluttonous, and a moron.
That goes for Europeans, it was written when he won Cannes first prize last year by french reporters.

Average French are much leaner than the average American. But they're catching up.

[DANJANOU]

Hey Vetts not good persec there buddy. I can make out your ugly mug.

They still have the Troops Especial in their natty maroon berets guarding that exhibit? Had an argument with one once about taking pics of the Granma and the restored Tempest from the street with my camera, He wanted me to line up and go inside the fence and pay the crappy entry fee. I’ve been in it before and was in a hurry that day, as the rumour was theta the Socialism or Death bakery had fresh not bread and I wanted to join that line.

Haven’t been down in a year now. Went to the DR. with the D9er this winter instead. May hit it in May though depending on how busy I am.


CJ I'll hold you to that. BTW there were two other Yanks at the table. Some old guy with a beard who claimed to have been a writer, a bull fighter, a boxer, and an ambulance driver. I figured he was a poser and wannabee. The other was some snot nosed kid from Boston who claimed he was a Senator and his daddy a rich moonshiner.

Bartender was some nice Cuban kid studying law at the university and rumour has it being scouted as he had a wicked fastball. Fairly good tarbender but boy was he talkative. We didn't tip him. :)

[Calanen]

Bottom line is, there are a lot of smart people out there that could probably devise a system of universal healthcare that would work as intended and make most rational people happy. But it will always be at the whim of politicians and lobbyists and business interests that are interested in the bottom line, not on the betterment of society as a whole. That's the price we, as individuals, pay.

They need to get the HMOs and the drug companies and the hospitals under control. A doctor in the states told me that if you are insured, the insurance companies will say to the hospital - we will not pay more than $120 bucks for a consultation. And the hospitals accept that, because well, they have to. If however you are someone without insurance, and bring in cash, you might have to pay $250. How does that make any sense? If anything the guy footing his own bill should be paying less not more!

The doctor also showed me the rates for cash payments and for people who were insured, and the insurance rates were roughly half on nearly everything.

[Indiana Jones]

CJ I'll hold you to that. BTW there were two other Yanks at the table. Some old guy with a beard who claimed to have been a writer, a bull fighter, a boxer, and an ambulance driver.I figured he was a poser and wannabee.
I´d rather refrain from calling Hemingway a poser and a wannabe if I were you. ;) The man also was a solid shot, a murderer and generally a psychotic asshole of nearly biblical proportions.

[California Joe]

CJ I'll hold you to that. BTW there were two other Yanks at the table. Some old guy with a beard who claimed to have been a writer, a bull fighter, a boxer, and an ambulance driver. I figured he was a poser and wannabee. The other was some snot nosed kid from Boston who claimed he was a Senator and his daddy a rich moonshiner.

Bartender was some nice Cuban kid studying law at the university and rumour has it being scouted as he had a wicked fastball. Fairly good tarbender but boy was he talkative. We didn't tip him. :)

I know these men you speak of. :) Should have tipped that bartender.

[DANJANOU]

I´d rather refrain from calling Hemingway a poser and a wannabe if I were you. ;) The man also was a solid shot, a murderer and generally a psychotic asshole of nearly biblical proportions.


Well Indiana you got one out of three persons at this mythical whorehouse bar but CJ got all three and you still need to work on your "recognizing sarcastic humour merit badge."

Tell you what if you can correctly identfy the other two (not including me and CJ senior) and I can sneak away from the memsahib, I’ll drag you on a pub crawl of some of Papa’s favourite watering holes in Habana, including the ones the touristas never visit such as the earlier mentioned Pacifico Hotel. Castro closed down the brothel and opium den back in 1959 but the lobby bar is still open.

http://www.cubanparadises.com/images/fotos/habana_2.jpg

[Indiana Jones]

Well Indiana you got one out of three persons at this mythical whorehouse bar but CJ got all three and you still need to work on your "recognizing sarcastic humour merit badge."

Tell you what if you can correctly identfy the other two (not including me and CJ senior) and I can sneak away from the memsahib, I’ll drag you on a pub crawl of some of Papa’s favourite watering holes in Habana, including the ones the touristas never visit such as the earlier mentioned Pacifico Hotel. Castro closed down the brothel and opium den back in 1959 but the lobby bar is still open.

http://www.cubanparadises.com/images/fotos/habana_2.jpg
The kid is Castro, I suppose. He looked better without the beard. The guy from Boston appears to be the young Kennedy.

[DANJANOU]

The kid is Castro, I suppose. He looked better without the beard. The guy from Boston appears to be the young Kennedy.


Pack your bags junior we're goin looking for CJs papa :)

Supposedly all three frequented the Pacifico, the large white wedding cake style building in the picture I posted, at various times in the 1950's. Castro was a law student and later activist lawyer from a well off family in Oriente Province and actually had been scouted by the majors for his pitching skills. JFK for obvious reasons loved Habana's sordid night life as did Papa.

The Pacifico did have both a bordello and an opium den concealed amongst it's many floors and rooms.

[VetsandVettes]

Hey Vetts not good persec there buddy. I can make out your ugly mug.

They still have the Troops Especial in their natty maroon berets guarding that exhibit? Had an argument with one once about taking pics of the Granma and the restored Tempest from the street with my camera, He wanted me to line up and go inside the fence and pay the crappy entry fee. I’ve been in it before and was in a hurry that day, as the rumour was theta the Socialism or Death bakery had fresh not bread and I wanted to join that line.

Haven’t been down in a year now. Went to the DR. with the D9er this winter instead. May hit it in May though depending on how busy I am.


CJ I'll hold you to that. BTW there were two other Yanks at the table. Some old guy with a beard who claimed to have been a writer, a bull fighter, a boxer, and an ambulance driver. I figured he was a poser and wannabee. The other was some snot nosed kid from Boston who claimed he was a Senator and his daddy a rich moonshiner.

Bartender was some nice Cuban kid studying law at the university and rumour has it being scouted as he had a wicked fastball. Fairly good tarbender but boy was he talkative. We didn't tip him. :)

Umm...
That would be me behind the camera so I don't know the owner of the ugly mug to which you refer. Some tourista, that's all...
Read Stephen Hunter's last book, "Havana". It's great.
Said Tempest is here...

[VetsandVettes]

Who can tell me the name of the owner of this casa? He was a famous American...

[VetsandVettes]

Who can tell me the name of the owner of this casa? He was a famous American...


OK. It's Al Capone's place in Veradero. To the original point, why is it that professional workers can't get treatment in the USA for ailments suffered as a result of exposure to 9/11 toxins? Wouldn't cops and fireman have health insurance?

[DANJANOU]

Who can tell me the name of the owner of this casa? He was a famous American...


Food sucks too. Overpriced rice and road kill and you have to pay in hard currency (CUCs). Nice view though.

Havana, and all the Hunter Earl Swagger books are excellent reads and would make great movies. Now that they've done Point of Impact/Shooter and there's talk of a sequel..... maybe.

[Merfeller]

Michael who?? Trying to stir up a little publicity for the next "documentary" eh?

[pascalywood]

Statistics are meaningless in this case.

I'd rather pay more for the best quality healthcare immediately than pay less and have to wait 14 weeks to get hospital care which may or may not be so stellar.

So while you're dying of heart failure waiting in line to get treated, I'll be getting that bypass.

14 weeks of waiting to get treated is not that long in Quebec. We might have free healthcare but the liberal pen-pushers turned our healthcare system into ****. Many doctors leave for Ontario or the USA because they arent paid enough.

[pascalywood]

I wouldn't consider Canada a dictatorship...
I'm pretty sure I voted a while back. I do agree with a 2-tier system though. Here, because it's "free", the Doctor's waiting room is full of the elderly looking at it as a social visit (looking for something to do) and all manner of uneccessary burden that even a $10 per visit fee would discourage. I feel if I've got the cash to pursue faster treatment that would in fact lessen the burden on the regular system it would be a win-win. Problem is that here the systen is run inefficiently, lots of tax waste.
Cuba has tons of Doctors pulling in $30 US a month due to the education costs and that's why Chavez can make these oil-for-treatment deals...

Quoted for truth. Very, very true.

[VetsandVettes]

Food sucks too. Overpriced rice and road kill and you have to pay in hard currency (CUCs). Nice view though.

Havana, and all the Hunter Earl Swagger books are excellent reads and would make great movies. Now that they've done Point of Impact/Shooter and there's talk of a sequel..... maybe.

Just hope they don't screw the movies up too much like they usually do when they adapt from a book. Haven't seen Shooter yet, but always said Point of Impact would make a GREAT movie, as would Time to Hunt, Day After Midnight, Dirty White Boys etc.
Hunter must have had a ball touring Cuba for a year researching...
Casa de Al wasn't open when I was there but the AI served huge lobster chunks with 8 inch crab legs at the buffet for free so I didn't bother risking the bug for eat-out experiences this time except for one place in Havana...
Here is the Malecon with Morro in the far left background taken through the window of a capitalista devil-mobile.

[VetsandVettes]

And, seeing's as this is a Military Forum, here is that tank in front of the Capito...

[VetsandVettes]

Quoted for truth. Very, very true.

Yep. Drives me nuts, it's like a Bingo Hall...

[DANJANOU]

And, seeing's as this is a Military Forum, here is that tank in front of the Capito...


Well it'as not really a tank it's an SU 85 Assualt Gun and that ain;t the Capitolo either. Can't remember what it is, but it's near the Spanish Embassy and the Cathederal over in the the old city near the Malecon.

Second pic is a tank though T34/85 at with the tiffie peaking out behind it.