Some more of wonderful Russian stability

[Doublethinker]

... Democracy and respect for human rights. Warning: Some might find the content to be brutal or offensive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4waWeu-LOcE&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fperesedov%2Elivejournal%2Ecom%2F271148%2Ehtml

[Digimon]

... Democracy and respect for human rights.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4waWeu-LOcE&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fperesedov%2Elivejournal%2Ecom%2F271148%2Ehtml

I know. Here is another example (same warning applies)...

http://www.youtube.com/v/ool8-_I8hoY

http://www.youtube.com/v/zYvk1xIAIyE

and here...
http://www.youtube.com/v/8GdzuzQKs8M

Russians are certainly quick learners..

[alfigel]

I know. Here is another example (same warning applies)...

http://www.youtube.com/v/ool8-_I8hoY

http://www.youtube.com/v/zYvk1xIAIyE

and here...
http://www.youtube.com/v/8GdzuzQKs8M

It's totally their own fault... I mean, if they had only stayed in the respective free speech zones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone)...

[pascalywood]

you have the right to remain silent. everything you say will only make me hit you stronger

[Noble713]

This is lightweight stuff. The South Koreans are still the kings of police beatdowns, and they've been a democracy quite a bit longer than the Russians have.

And on a side note I can't help but get the impression that this is just a ****-stirring thread and I can't see anything positive coming from it.

[Henry's Fork]

This is lightweight stuff. The South Koreans are still the kings of police beatdowns, and they've been a democracy quite a bit longer than the Russians have.

And on a side note I can't help but get the impression that this is just a ****-stirring thread and I can't see anything positive coming from it.

QFT. Europe is famous for its football brawls and SKorea famous for its riots. Many a great thread posted here on Korean riots.

Total $hit disturbing. No one has brought up polonium yet. p-)

[themacedonian]

... Democracy and respect for human rights. Warning: Some might find the content to be brutal or offensive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4waWeu-LOcE&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fperesedov%2Elivejournal%2Ecom%2F271148%2Ehtml

I am not sure if you know who was protesting i.e. provoking?

National Bolshevik party. Which is technically a Nazi party. Do you expect democracy from those people?

[JesperAFCA]

hell, the police in NY and Russia are a mess. No tactics, only in the last vid you see a good tactic police force.

[Pandy]

South Korea is the King of Riots... Some warnings apply here.

http://www.youtube.com/v/3ibMLjZDirA

http://www.youtube.com/v/sz8lXlIiqaI

http://www.youtube.com/v/YR9OcOhyW94

http://www.youtube.com/v/AnxD1IMb_jw

Sorry about the music on the first one...

[mi35d]

hell, the police in NY and Russia are a mess. No tactics, only in the last vid you see a good tactic police force.

You're comparing NY city police to an entire country's police force? And you're basing this on what...?

[theholeinthedonut]

I am not sure if you know who was protesting i.e. provoking?

National Bolshevik party. Which is technically a Nazi party. Do you expect democracy from those people?

I guess the German State Tv is also part of the "Nazi party", as is Gary Kasparov.........
Anyhow your "Nazi Party" propaganda is working brilliantly because the Western Press is overwhelmingly critizing the heavy handed and unwarranted Police action. If Putin carries on like this our Politicos will have big problems explaining their schmoosing with him to their voters.

[alfigel]

I am not sure if you know who was protesting i.e. provoking?

Protests are something different than provocation.


National Bolshevik party. Which is technically a Nazi party. Do you expect democracy from those people?

No, the protests were organized by "The Other Russia", an umbrella organization consisting of 13 organizations, and merely _one_ of them is the НБП.

[Canuck Farrier]

Nothin beats some good riot videos.p-) cheers.

[Zuze]

Some pics.

http://fishki.net/commentall.php?id=20100

[Flamming_Python]

I find it very interesting that all these protests are coinciding with Berezovsky's renewed call for a "violent revolution" just a few days ago.

The reason Kasparov originally started to have his meetings, etc... shut down was when he invited the National Bolsheviks into his coalition. That was quite a few months ago. Before that his politics weren't particularly liked, but nontheless tolerated.

[CPL Trevoga]

... Democracy and respect for human rights. Warning: Some might find the content to be brutal or offensive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4waWeu-LOcE&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fperesedov%2Elivejournal%2Ecom%2F271148%2Ehtml

Demonstration was illegal. End of story. Democracy doesn't mean, "You can do anything you damn please."

[Frutzel]

Demonstration was illegal. End of story. Democracy doesn't mean, "You can do anything you damn please."


x22 nothing more to say!

[alfigel]

Demonstration was illegal. End of story. Democracy doesn't mean, "You can do anything you damn please."

You should ask yourself:
- why was the permission for the demonstration not given?
- was it really necessary to beat up virtually everybody at the demo, including old people and foreign news reporters, or did this once more make Russia like a big asshole?

N.B. Russia is not a democracy, but a "directed democracy" (according to Putin). I think that speaks for itself. With these standards, even dictatorship would be called "directed self-determination".

[CPL Trevoga]

You should ask yourself:
- why was the permission for the demonstration not given?
- was it really necessary to beat up virtually everybody at the demo, including old people and foreign news reporters, or did this once more make Russia like a big asshole?

N.B. Russia is not a democracy, but a "directed democracy" (according to Putin). I think that speaks for itself. With these standards, even dictatorship would be called "directed self-determination".

Why would they allow a "demonstration" paid by US taxpayers and Berezovkiy, during a rush hour in the middle of Moscow? Seems like a smart move and lawful. It's just politics are dirty business.

Police tactics were somewhat heavy handed, but that has nothing to do with democracy. It's the police issue.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Why would they allow a "demonstration" paid by US taxpayers and Berezovkiy, during a rush hour in the middle of Moscow? Seems like a smart move and lawful. It's just politics are dirty business.

Police tactics were somewhat heavy handed, but that has nothing to do with democracy. It's the police issue.

Oh please.

Anybody who has ever been to Russia for any period of time and especially those out there who actually are Russian know that the Putin government does whatever it wants whenever it wants. What are a few cracked heads on Pushkinsaya ploshad? Just another days work for OMON.

I by no means support Limonov or Kasparov or any of the other great pretenders, but if Russia is going to claim to be even vaguely democratic, the people have a right to speak without being beaten down.

Call it like it is, it isn't quelling an illegal riot... it's police brutality to squash any voice of opposition.

Not that most Muscovites with any say give a damn anyway... they're more worried about their upcoming Parisian holiday, BMW vs. Mercedes and wondering if they are going to get past face control at Dagielev.

[alfigel]

Why would they allow a "demonstration" paid by US taxpayers and Berezovkiy, during a rush hour in the middle of Moscow? Seems like a smart move and lawful. It's just politics are dirty business.

Oh, yeah. Conspiracy theorist straight ahead!


Police tactics were somewhat heavy handed, but that has nothing to do with democracy. It's the police issue.

I disagree. The police tactics shown clearly show the state of democracy in Russia. This "directed democracy" is a defunct democracy, where minor offenses are answered with brutality. Or is that a common habit of treating minor offenses generally in Russia? "Rush hour" is no excuse for police brutality like this.

[AZRON]

Ya gotta love it !

Russia has a demonstration and it's my fault as a U.S. taxpayer !!!!!!!!!!

Ha, ha, ha .

Some things never change.

Try again buddy !

[Canuck Farrier]

demonstrations are a waste of time and just piss the government off even more.there are more effective ways of getting points across.

[Sergei]

Ya gotta love it !

Russia has a demonstration and it's my fault as a U.S. taxpayer !!!!!!!!!!

Ha, ha, ha .

Some things never change.

Try again buddy !


Laugh harder. I wonder how much money is Kasparov costing the US government. He surely earns it well. A provocation well thought after.

Well done OMON! What most of you folks are missing is several crackheads who started throwing bottles into the police and the guys in uniform don't like that.

You want some police brutality, go see the Rome police beat Manchester United fans - nobody is calling Italy dictatorial do they?

[CPL Trevoga]

Oh, yeah. Conspiracy theorist straight ahead!
He said it himself on British TV.



I disagree. The police tactics shown clearly show the state of democracy in Russia. This "directed democracy" is a defunct democracy, where minor offenses are answered with brutality. Or is that a common habit of treating minor offenses generally in Russia? "Rush hour" is no excuse for police brutality like this.

My good man, you sound like an American, you expect everything in a second!
Let's be realistic, Russia was a dictatorship for centuries and you expect it to have a "democracy" in 15 years. It's just doesn't happen like that, don't forget that 10 years of that post Soviet Russia had serious economic problems. People were just trying to make the ends meet, democracy wasn't high on the list. You should know from history of your country what happens because of economic disasters. Anyway, in 15-20 years of current economic growth you will see something closely resembling western type of democracy, because I strong believer that only wealthy can have successful democrazies.

[Digimon]

You should ask yourself:
- why was the permission for the demonstration not given?
- was it really necessary to beat up virtually everybody at the demo, including old people and foreign news reporters, or did this once more make Russia like a big asshole?

N.B. Russia is not a democracy, but a "directed democracy" (according to Putin). I think that speaks for itself. With these standards, even dictatorship would be called "directed self-determination".

Agreed. They are not concerned with traffic, they are concerned with the growing of protest (people join groups that walk through streets). They seem to be scared of the political technologies employed in Ukraine, assuming that people will follow anyone with a buck. So now, just like in New York, they want to use their assumed right to designate the areas of assemblies to minimize the effect of protest. The right to peaceful march, however, requires no permission, it is guaranteed by the Russian Constitution:

Article 31. Citizens of the Russian Federation shall have the right to gather peacefully, without weapons, and to hold meetings, rallies, demonstrations, marches and pickets.

These are political technologies that have nothing to do with the law: they are fighting views and ideologies. Its not the state protecting Russia, it is a particular political force that identifies itself with Russia trying to maintain its preeminence at the expense of everyone’s freedoms, forgetting that it is the people of Russia who are the vehicle of sovereignty. Views and ideologies must compete fairly within the confines of the established constitution, and live or die because people either accept or reject them.

Article 3. The multinational people of the Russian Federation shall be the vehicle of sovereignty and the only source of power in the Russian Federation.

Those who support current government and believe that the views of Kasparov or Limonov are unacceptable, and hence deserve a trashing, should be prepared to come under the same hummer, when the political direction changes for whatever reason and their own opinions fall out of political favor...

Source: http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/ch1.html (http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/ch1.html)

Thankfully, Vladimir Lukin, the Russian ombudsman for human rights, has called these events a violation of people’s constitutional rights to protest and encouraged launching of official complaints that might lead to persecution of those responsible.

Source:http://www.lenta.ru/news/2007/04/16/beaten/

P.S. As far as “directed democracy” is concerned, without understanding exactly what it implies and what was meant by it, it is just a collection of letters that anyone is free to interpret in any conceivable way… Hence, it carries no content, precisely why western journalists like to use it so much…

[AZRON]

Laugh harder. I wonder how much money is Kasparov costing the US government. He surely earns it well. A provocation well thought after.

Well done OMON! What most of you folks are missing is several crackheads who started throwing bottles into the police and the guys in uniform don't like that.

You want some police brutality, go see the Rome police beat Manchester United fans - nobody is calling Italy dictatorial do they?

You are totally missing my point !

Just about all problems that happen in the U.S. are U.S. made problems not Russian or whom ever.

I do not run around with It's someboby elses fault not mine attitude .
If one routinely goes through life blaming others for their situation and not taking any responsibility nothing gets fixed or corrected.

I have no reason what so ever to blame Russia for any U.S. domestic problem and think it's a cheap cop-out for Russians to blame the U.S. taxpayers(me) for a demonstration. BTW, I didn't mention heavy handed or any other descriptive.

[Sergei]

demonstrations are a waste of time and just piss the government off even more.there are more effective ways of getting points across.

Like this?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3846833218126330420

[Digimon]

Like this?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3846833218126330420

There is another very good film done by CBC that came out in 2004-5 that was called “The Anatomy of a Revolution”. The film is about the role of the same NKOs (like the International Republican Institute) in Orange Revolution in Ukraine.

These films somehow miss the US meddling in Haiti, Venezuela, and Syria…, which are particularly telling due to being highly counterproductive.

[Civil Guard]

the police is just as pist off at the government as the demonstrators
tats why they beating the s**t out of them just to get their own anger out!

[Digimon]

Oh, yeah. Conspiracy theorist straight ahead!

No conspiracy theories. Everything is done in the open, and is well documented in the western media.

[asch]

Thankfully, Vladimir Lukin, the Russian ombudsman for human rights, has called these events a violation of people’s constitutional rights to protest and encouraged launching of official complaints that might lead to persecution of those responsible.
how come? i mean, we are diktatorship, remember? p-) no free press, no government criticism (as some people here think).

btw, those protests still raised some concern around. so, i think, they works.
but thinking about a positive image of protesters... nnnooooo. silly idiots and stupid youngsters. not a future of Russia, no doubt.

[JesperAFCA]

You're comparing NY city police to an entire country's police force? And you're basing this on what...?

I'm not comparing the polices forces, I make a summary of the vids that I saw about "riot control". I don't believe that the entire police forces are a mess. And I'm basing this on things that I see here in the Netherlands, I see weekly our riot squad on the move. Last Friday they were busy on a highway around Amsterdam.

[KMS]

I strongly disagree with the way Moscow's government and OMON handeled the demonstration. They should have stayed out of it and let those misguided and confused souls aka stupid f*cks protest anywhere they wanted, bring plenty of TV crews and make it a pay per view event.
Lots of people, including myself, would pay money to see what would happen to those protesting morons next.

Police brutality? Rodney King? You ain't seen sh*t yet kids...
Moscows' rush hour drivers...few hundred thousand of them that would be affected by that demonstration if not for the OMON...
Those naive fools in the USA and the European sheep don't even have the word in their dictionary for what would have happened.
The idiots should be thankfull that OMON removed them before some very Moscovites got to them.


On the side note, those who are barking something about lack of democracy or some other freedom lacking sh*t in Russia, should look at the US and its "Patriot act".

Now thats the system that would give USSR with its KGB machine run for its money any day.

[Mr.K]

Not that most Muscovites with any say give a damn anyway... they're more worried about their upcoming Parisian holiday, BMW vs. Mercedes and wondering if they are going to get past face control at Dagielev.

Best post of the thread. Face control is an important issue.
And you'd get your ass kicked and arrested anywhere else in the free world if your demonstration is illegal.

[Digimon]

Sorry, in Russian...

"Как заявил вчера глава комитета по безопасности Госдумы Владимир Васильев, в случае, если к ним поступят соответствующие обращения граждан, "будут проводиться проверки". Его поддержал и председатель комитета по конституционному законодательству и госстроительству Владимир Плигин. Резко осудил действия правоохранительных органов лидер КПРФ Геннадий Зюганов: "Милиция и ОМОН действовали абсолютно неадекватно, и прокуратура должна с этим разобраться".


Озабоченность происшедшим выразили и правозащитники. Свое заявление сделал уполномоченный по правам человека в РФ Владимир Лукин, обычно старающийся избегать политических конфликтов. Господин Лукин, по его словам, "видел, что на улице пролилась кровь". "То, что я наблюдал на экране ТВ, создало у меня впечатление о серьезном превышении некоторыми представителями правоохранительных органов своих полномочий,– сказал он.– Я буду готов внимательно рассмотреть жалобы пострадавших граждан и настоятельно просить Генпрокуратуру возбудить уголовные дела, которые поддержу в судах"."

Investigations might be initiated by the parliamentary committee on security and a committee on constitutional legislature. Ombudsman intends to appeal to the prosecutor’s office to launch an investigation into police actions.


Source: http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.html?docId=759449

[Danik]

On the side note, those who are barking something about lack of democracy or some other freedom lacking sh*t in Russia, should look at the US and its "Patriot act".

Now thats the system that would give USSR with its KGB machine run for its money any day.

Yea its soooo bad, that I have not experienced a single change since prior to 9/11. I guess if u tell me Im not free, I must not be. Can you please help me out of the matrix morpheous?

[Mr.K]

Yea its soooo bad, that I have not experienced a single change since prior to 9/11. I guess if u tell me Im not free, I must not be. Can you please help me out of the matrix morpheous?
Well do you protest against your current goverment? How about with a hammer and sickle? Then we'll see how free you are.

[Flamming_Python]

Interesting article I came across:
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/3090/


A new Russian revolution? Get real
Another Russia, the anti-Putin campaign group, commands the front pages of the Western press. But it hasn’t impressed the Russian people.

The protest movement Another Russia clashed with riot police this weekend, and its leader Garry Kasparov was briefly imprisoned. But do these self-styled dissidents really offer any alternative to President Vladimir Putin?

Kasparov was prevented from taking part in the Moscow demonstration called to oppose President Putin’s clampdown on unofficial political actions, while his supporters were forced into backstreets by riot police. Still, the former chess champion and would-be dissident - fined 1,000 roubles (£20) for his trouble - claimed a victory in the Western press, for having exposed Putin’s paranoia.

In the 1980s, Kasparov upset precedent to defeat the Soviets’ preferred champion, loyalist Anatoly Karpov; he then proceeded to take on IBM’s super chess programme Deep Blue. In the 1990s, he was an active supporter of Yeltsin’s absentee presidency, and of the crash course privatisation that saw the creation of a handful of super-rich ‘oligarchs’ while many experienced hardship.

Now, with the rise of the austere former KGB man and Karpov look-a-like Putin to the Russian presidency, Kasparov has reinvented himself as the head of a movement of dissidents, which goes under the name Another Russia. Already, Another Russia has clashed with police in St Petersburg by holding protests in defiance of draconian new rules on public order. Now, the weekend’s set-piece clash in Moscow casts Putin in the role of Stalinist autocrat and Another Russia as a new Charter 77.

But the Another Russia bandwagon is a pretty shaky contraption. Kasparov was an unremarkable politician in the Yeltsin era and was implicated in the lost years of privatisation. His allies are a peculiar mix. The mainstream liberal opposition party Yabloko has shunned the campaign, but Putin’s one-time privatisation adviser, Andrei Illarionov, having slipped from power, has signed up. The punk-existentialist author turned extreme nationalist leader, Eduard Limonov, has brought his tinpot National Bolshevik party on-board – giving them a greater sense of purpose than their previous campaigns to hold a church congregation hostage with a fake grenade, and organise a Russian army to invade Kazakhstan. (Limonov, who volunteered as a sniper for the Serb Republican Army in the Bosnian civil war, has the copyright on ‘Another Russia’ – it’s the title of his personal manifesto.)

And, having fled to Britain with the billions he made from the fire sale of Russia’s state assets, the colourful oligarch Boris Berezovsky can command the front page of the Guardian to add his support to the anti-Putin demonstrators, calling for a new revolution to overthrow the president. Berezovsky poses as the avenger of those critics of Putin’s government who have been assassinated – writer Anna Politkovskaya and Berezovsky’s own private security officer, Alexander Litvinenko. It is hard, though, to see the tycoon’s platform as anything other than an attempt to regain power by a man who is nostalgic for a time, under Yeltsin, when he had direct access to the president and the levers of power. Berezovsky even organised Putin’s first campaign for the Russian presidency.

One thing that Another Russia does have in common with the dissident intellectuals who clashed with the Soviet authorities in the 1970s and 80s is its disconnection from the mass of the people. All of the new so-called dissidents are characterised by an ostentatious disdain for ordinary Russians, in inverse proportion to their lionisation of the ‘Other Russia’. It seems bad taste to mock the murdered Politkovskaya, but having suffered the serialisation of her diaries in our sycophantic newspapers, can we ignore her endemic snobbery?

‘Whatever happened to public opinion?’ Politkovskaya demanded to know (1). ‘The country is sinking into a state of collective unconsciousness, into unreason.’ (2) She continued, ‘Today’s Russian, brainwashed by propaganda, has largely reverted to Bolshevik thinking’ (3) and complained over Russian support for the war in Chechnya that: ‘No storm of indignation swept over the country… there was not a single protest demonstration, no defenders of civil rights.’ (4)

The late Politkovskaya’s attitude of superiority over the befuddled Russian masses is sadly all too like the rest of the ‘dissident’ outlook. ‘Another Russia’ seems to mean ‘us’, the intellectuals, who cherish our independence from the hoi polloi – that is, from Russia and its people. In London, the would-be mastermind Berezovsky (disowned by Kasparov and the rest of the protesters and not included in the Another Russia signatories in Moscow) told BBC TV’s Newsnight two months ago that he had given up all hope for the Russian people, and had no ambitions there – a judgement he seems to have quickly traded in for one of conspiring to overthrow the elected government.

There is a reason for the oppositionists’ rejection of public opinion. Public opinion has rejected them. The backdrop to the latest feverish flapping is not an increase in public support, but its falling away. More to the point, Putin’s government, thuggish as it has no doubt been, has succeeded in giving ordinary Russians a degree of security and even prosperity for some that lacked it in the 1990s - something that these new ‘dissidents’ never did when they had influence by default in the Yeltsin era.

While the economy collapsed under Yeltsin, it has recovered to become one of the fastest growing industrialised countries in the world. Since 1999, Russia posted growth rates averaging six per cent of GDP (compared with a Group of Eight industrialised nation’s average of two per cent). Under Putin, Russia paid off most of the debts accrued in the Yeltsin era. Government bonds counted as junk before are now rated a good investment.

The critics point to the re-nationalisation of Yukos, and the high-profile jailing of its chief executive Mikhail Khodorkovsky, as proof that the old command economy is returning. Putin has been denounced as a new Stalin for reining in the oligarchs. But according to America’s defence think-tank, the RAND Corporation, the positive outcome of Putin’s economic nationalism has been ‘the husbanding rather than the dissipating of economic rents from high oil and gas prices’ (5). By comparison to the Eurozone, Russian government spending is quite low.

If Putin is loathed in Western liberal circles, it is primarily because of his assertion of Russian authority. Yeltsin, who led the country to bankruptcy, was always praised for his pro-Western outlook. Under Putin, Russia has declined to be put in the same category as those Third World states who kowtow to Western advisers. The law limiting the input of Western non-governmental organisations in Russia has provoked outrage in Washington and Brussels.

This is the ill-kept secret of Putin’s success – he has delivered a degree of stability and even prosperity for the middle classes, and managed to lift Russia’s standing in the world. Some of it is luck – he inherited a situation so bad it could only improve. Oil wealth, though its contribution is overstated, has helped. But to the chagrin of oligarchs and intellectuals alike, Putin’s biggest success is to re-motivate state authority over civil society in a way that Yeltsin singularly failed to do.

His methods have been blunt – crushing the Chechens’ cowboy republic and prosecuting the most obviously crooked of the oligarchs – but they have also been undeniably popular. The ‘organised democracy’ that emerged is authoritarian in its control of the political process. But the freedom to mess around without consequences, characteristic of the Yeltsin era, is missed by too few people to make a difference.

James Heartfield is a writer and researcher in London. Visit his website here.

[lightfire]

G.Kasparov is an evil reactionist, enemy of the peoples and sionist provocator, funded by evil dirty US money. Demonstrations are illeagal, end of story.

<s>

[asch]

G.Kasparov is an evil reactionist, enemy of the peoples and sionist provocator, funded by evil dirty US money. Demonstrations are illeagal, end of story.

<s>

very constructive. go on.

[Flamming_Python]

G.Kasparov is an evil reactionist, enemy of the peoples and sionist provocator, funded by evil dirty US money. Demonstrations are illeagal, end of story.

<s>

Why don't you start off Lightfire, by telling us what you honestly think of him. Of course beware of the evil russian proparganda floating around that might poison your mind. Oh wait hang on, where is this evil proparganda hiding anyway?

BTW Since when were demonstrations illegal in Russia?

As for me I reckoned the police breakup was a little over the top and only serves to draw attention to a bunch of loonies who will end up commiting political suicide one way or the other anyway in the near future.

[Lokos]

What were there, 2,000 protesters and 9,000 police? The reaction was over the top. But no one will care, outside of Western Europe and the US. And they are irrelevant to Russia's diplomatic interests. What are they going to do? Cut economic ties? Don't make me laugh.

Lokos

[TheArmenian]

Do you know Kasparov's background?

Has Armenian mother
Father is Jewish
Born in Baku (Azerbaijan)
After father died he adopted mother's Surname (Kasparyan)
Russified the name to Kasparov
.
.
.
Now he is in politics and has vowed to topple Putin.....

[Canuck Farrier]

Kasparov is Russian opposition party Leader????

[Flamming_Python]

Do you know Kasparov's background?

Has Armenian mother
Father is Jewish
Born in Baku (Azerbaijan)
After father died he adopted mother's Surname (Kasparyan)
Russified the name to Kasparov
.
.
.
Now he is in politics and has vowed to topple Putin.....

Hmm seems to be a few missing 'steps' in your timeline :)

[Flamming_Python]

Kasparov is Russian opposition party Leader????

Well one of the oppositions. There is a lot of Russian opposition from the Communists to the Extreme Nationalists (alligned with Skinhead movement) to the Kremlin-backed Just Russia party.

But most of them work constructively with the ruling party and push their agendas in the Duma and local Legislations, rather than going out onto the streets and demanding a revolution against the democratically elected leadership of 2000 and 2004.

[TheArmenian]

Most Russians want Putin to stay for third term - poll

MOSCOW. April 17 (Interfax) - Two-thirds of Russians approve of proposals by Federation Council speaker Sergei Mironov to increase the term of presidential office to 5-7 years and to allow a president to serve for three consecutive terms.
Sixty-five percent of respondents approve of the "third term" proposals and 24% are opposed, according to the poll by the Russian Public Opinion Center and the St. Petersburg Politics Foundation, the results of which were made available at Interfax.
The poll shows that almost 70% of Russians approve of proposals to amend the constitution to allow Vladimir Putin to run for a third consecutive term against 23% opposed.
The poll was conducted on April 7-8 in 153 Russian towns among 1,600 respondents.


Source www.interfax.ru

[Danik]

Well do you protest against your current goverment? How about with a hammer and sickle? Then we'll see how free you are.

Im confused...

Do you think Im Russian in Russia?

or

American in America?

[TheArmenian]

Gorbachev says "Marches of Dissent" undermine stability


17:13|17/ 04/ 2007http://img.rian.ru/i/b_print.gif (http://en.rian.ru/russia/20070417/63813116-print.html)


MOSCOW, April 17 (RIA Novosti) - Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev, now head of a socioeconomic and political think tank, said opposition marches in Russia only undermined stability in the country. Opposition protests, March of Dissent, were held in Russia's two largest cities over the weekend. Rights groups, oppositionists and journalists have accused Russian police of abusing their power in dispersing the unsanctioned opposition demonstrations. A total of 250 and 170 people were detained respectively.
"Somebody wants to complicate the situation in the country and push for instability," Gorbachev told a RIA Novosti news conference. "We must learn our lesson, and tell those who arouse fear in society that it is unacceptable."
The first and the last U.S.S.R. president backed President Vladimir Putin, crediting him with the current stability in Russia.
"He has done a lot to turn the country towards modernization, I support Putin," Gorbachev said.
In his comments on the U.S. State Department report on democracy and human rights in Russia, Gorbachev said the criticism should be taken normally, but warned against attaching paramount importance to the report.
"It is always possible to find reasons to criticize," Gorbachev said. "The United States could also be criticized."
"A sovereign country does not work when others fail to allow it to go through the transition from one system to another, assess everything and decide what should be taken from the past and how economic and political processes must be approached," Gorbachev said.
Russian officials immediately reacted to the U.S. report. "The report is obviously politicized in its nature and fails to reflect the real state of affairs," the Foreign Ministry said, adding the U.S. State Department published similar reports before the "color revolutions" in former Soviet republics.





source www.en.rian.ru

[Rictor]

I've almost always taken Russia's side on whatever the issue happens to be, but in this case the government was clearly wrong. Sending OMON to beat down protesters is both cruel and unnecessary.

If Putin is as popular as all the polls indicate, and as I myself believe, why does he need to make life so hard for the opposition parties by banning them, cracking down on protests etc? For example, banning a party that has two seats in the Duma, out of several hundred, is simply paranoid and stupid.

Yeah, I know, the government still fears a color revolution like in Ukraine and Georgia, but at this point the opposition is so powerless that they couldn't even attempt it. Does anyone really believe that the National Bolsheviks or Kasparov pose a real threat to the state? Hell no.

So let them march if they want to - not allowing dissent is the very thing that fuels these parties. If they couldn'd rally against government repression, their political platform would be virtually non-existant.

[Digimon]

What were there, 2,000 protesters and 9,000 police? The reaction was over the top. But no one will care, outside of Western Europe and the US. And they are irrelevant to Russia's diplomatic interests. What are they going to do? Cut economic ties? Don't make me laugh.

Lokos

Not so Lokos. The reaction in the Russian press was very negative. Everyone is wondering why do this? There is a fair consensus that this opposition had no followers and no weight until OMON started to beat them up... As "Expert" - business journal - put it, the beatings might not get this opposition any followers, but it will create general dissenters... Regardless of the political opinions and affiliations of the demonstrators, it is hard not to disagree with this...

http://www.kommersant.ru/Issues.photo/DAILY/2007/064/R2007041522B_l.jpg

http://www.expert.ru/files/273396/marsh_h.jpg

http://www.expert.ru/files/273398/marsh_b.jpg

As far as international pressure is concerned, there is no better way to discredit any political movement than to lend it support from the US. Neither the US, nor the majority of the Europeans have any moral weight in the eyes of most Russians, and with good reason... It is precisely the reactions of ordinary people, and the typically uncritical press, that makes the current reaction so important. (These pictures are from Russian newspapers)

[Brute]

Why not let them march?

Maybe because those would-be color revolutionaries, bankrolled (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3846833218126330420) by the US government, blocked out Nevsky Prospekt, the city's main artery, that's why.
AFAIK, they had been allowed to demonstrate on the city's outskirts but that just wasn't enough for them. While OMON may have been overly zealous in their efforts, they had every right to remove them.

I find certain pleasure in knowing that that PNAC crony Jackson (http://www.newamericancentury.org/brucejacksonbio.htm) and his pal Mr Sharp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Sharp) may have to write a new manual on color revolutions because their current one seems to have run into a brick wall.

"Yeah, go ahead, try the "befriend police" stunt on OMON (as per Sharp's manual), you hippie jackass!" cue in the sound of skulls cracking.

P.S. nice article, Flamming Python. Pretty much sums up my feelings about the issue.

[Switek]

Why not let them march?

Maybe because those would-be color revolutionaries, bankrolled (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3846833218126330420) by the US government, blocked out Nevsky Prospekt, the city's main artery, that's why.
AFAIK, they had been allowed to demonstrate on the city's outskirts but that just wasn't enough for them. While OMON may have been overly zealous in their efforts, they had every right to remove them.

I find certain pleasure in knowing that that PNAC crony Jackson (http://www.newamericancentury.org/brucejacksonbio.htm) and his pal Mr Sharp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Sharp) may have to write a new manual on color revolutions because their current one seems to have run into a brick wall.

"Yeah, go ahead, try the "befriend police" stunt on OMON (as per Sharp's manual), you hippie jackass!" cue in the sound of skulls cracking.

I knew... if there's is no arguments the guilty on duty is: CIA, GWB, USA, Masons, EU, leftists, nazists, anarchists, Jewish, Poles, cyclists, ****s, me - Switek, moon phase, Spring, World Bank, Soros, NGOs. KKK, Pope, oil prices.... etc...


:cantbeli:

[Digimon]

Just to put a few things in context. This is how the authorities had suppressed the illegal (i.e. forbidden) "Russian March" of pro Nazi youth in St. Petersburg and Moscow.



http://www.miloserdie.ru/pic/27%5B200%5D.jpg

http://www.ljplus.ru/img/c/h/chuden/RM.jpg

http://www.mia-info.ru/typo3temp/pics/bd918cd9d1.jpg

http://www.mia-info.ru/typo3temp/pics/dac0e8a51b.jpg
http://www.rusmarsh.org/images/uploads/krym001.jpg
http://www.rons.ru/RUSMARCH1.JPG

Article: http://www.nazlobu.ru/publications/article1172.htm (2006)

[asch]

I knew... if there's is no arguments the guilty on duty is: CIA, GWB, USA, Masons, EU, leftists, nazists, anarchists, Jewish, Poles, cyclists, ****s, me - Switek, moon phase, Spring, World Bank, Soros, NGOs. KKK, Pope, oil prices.... etc...


:cantbeli:

what's your point? as far as i know, there is no considerable opposition inside Russia. just attention whores and silly clowns like Limonov, Kasparov etc. and we all know everready willingness of certain countries to stickin it's nose in the business of others.

yes, OMON is overreacting.
no, for now it's hard to say on which level that mistake was done.

and one thing that angers me. all this dumbfvcks protesting on our streets is just protesting. i mean "to hell with government, kick them off!!" and then what? we have this sort of shyte in nearby past, when some of ex-party political elite incite a huge changes without any plan to handle them. we, here, remember those times briefly. we don't want same shyte again. so, i recommend to those protesters go fvck themself and stop messing in our country, and i think this is opinion of majority.

[UssuriTiger]

By the way, the era of Dark Rider is coming in Russia according to Startfor.
Neil Gaiman with his "American Gods" must rest in peace.
Zorya Utrennyaya and Zorya Vechernyaya, having escaped from the Regime to the Land of Brave and Free stirred up Chernobog's black heart
and Peter Zeihan capabilities of Kabbalistic signs reader .



The Coming Era of Russia's Dark Rider
April 17, 2007 17 52 GMT



By Peter Zeihan

Russian opposition members rallied in Moscow's Pushkin Square on April 14. The so-called Dissenters' March was organized by Other Russia, an umbrella group that includes everyone from unrepentant communists and free-market reformers to far-right ultranationalists whose only uniting characteristic is their common opposition to the centralization of power under President Vladimir Putin's administration.

Minutes after the march began, the 2,000 or so protesters found themselves outnumbered more than four to one by security forces. They quickly dispersed the activists, beating and briefly detaining those who sought to break through the riot-control lines. Among those arrested were chess-champion-turned-political-activist Garry Kasparov and Maria Gaidar, the daughter of Russia's first post-Soviet reformist prime minister. Former Prime Minister Mikhail Kasyanov only avoided arrest because his bodyguards helped him to escape. A ******* crew was permitted to capture the events and disseminate them to the West. A day later, another protest, albeit far smaller, was broken up in a similar way in St. Petersburg, though Kasparov was detained before the protest even began.

What gives? The protests were insignificant in both numerical and political terms. Moreover, with all that is going on in the world right now, the last thing the Putin government needs is to attract negative attention to itself. The answer becomes apparent when one considers Russia's point in its historical cycle and the mounting pressures on Putin personally that have nothing whatsoever to do with "democracy."

The Russian Cycle

At the risk of sounding like a high school social studies teacher (or even George Friedman), history really does run in cycles. Take Europe for example. European history is a chronicle of the rise and fall of its geographic center. As Germany rises, the powers on its periphery buckle under its strength and are forced to pool resources in order to beat back Berlin. As Germany falters, the power vacuum at the middle of the Continent allows the countries on Germany's borders to rise in strength and become major powers themselves.

Since the formation of the first "Germany" in 800, this cycle has set the tempo and tenor of European affairs. A strong Germany means consolidation followed by a catastrophic war; a weak Germany creates a multilateral concert of powers and multistate competition (often involving war, but not on nearly as large a scale). For Europe this cycle of German rise and fall has run its course three times -- the Holy Roman Empire, Imperial Germany, Nazi Germany -- and is only now entering its fourth iteration with the reunified Germany.

Russia's cycle, however, is far less clinical than Europe's. It begins with a national catastrophe. Sometimes it manifests as a result of disastrous internal planning; sometimes it follows a foreign invasion. But always it rips up the existing social order and threatens Russia with chaos and dissolution. The most recent such catastrophe was the Soviet collapse followed by the 1998 financial crisis. Previous disasters include the crushing of Russian forces in World War I and the imposition of the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk; the "Time of Troubles," whose period of internal warfare and conspiracy-laden politics are a testament to the Russian predilection for understatement; and near annihilation under the Mongol occupation.

Out of the horrors of defeat, the Russians search desperately for the second phase of the cycle -- the arrival of a white rider -- and invariably they find one. The white rider rarely encapsulates what Westerners conceive of as a savior -- someone who will bring wealth and freedom. Russian concerns after such calamities are far more basic: they want stability. But by Russian standards, the white rider is a rather optimistic fellow. He truly believes that Russia can recover from its time of trial, once a level of order is restored. So the Russian white rider sets about imposing a sense of consistency and strength, ending the free fall of Russian life. Putin is the current incarnation of Russia's white rider, which puts him in the same category as past leaders such as Vladimir Lenin and, of course, Russia's "Greats": Catherine and Peter.

Contrary to portrayals of him by many in the Western media, Putin is not a hard-nosed autocrat set upon militarization and war. He is from St. Petersburg, Russia's "window on the West," and during the Cold War one of his chief responsibilities was snagging bits of Western technology to send home. He was (and remains) fully cognizant of Russia's weaknesses and ultimately wanted to see Russia integrated as a full-fledged member of the Western family of nations.

He also is pragmatic enough to have realized that his ideal for Russia's future and Russia's actual path are two lines that will not converge. So, since November 2005, Putin has been training two potential replacements: First Deputy Prime Ministers Dmitri Medvedev and Sergei Ivanov. At this point, nearly a year before Russia's next presidential election, determining which one will take over is a matter of pure guesswork. Also unclear is what role, if any, Putin will grab for himself -- up to and including a continuation of his presidency.

The question of who takes over in March 2008 is generating much interest and debate among Kremlinologists. It clearly matters a great deal both politically and economically, though geopolitically the discussion misses the point. The real takeaway is that Russia's current white horse period is coming to an end. Putin's efforts to stabilize Russia have succeeded, but his dreams of Westernizing Russia are dead. The darkness is about to set in.

The Dark Rider

In the third phase of the Russian cycle, the white rider realizes that the challenges ahead are more formidable than he first believed and that his (relative) idealism is more a hindrance than an asset. At this point the white rider gives way to a dark one, someone not burdened by the white rider's goals and predilections, and willing to do what he feels must be done regardless of moral implications. The most famous Russian dark rider in modern times is Josef Stalin, of course, while perhaps the most consuming were the "Vasilys" of the Vasily Period, which led to the greatest civil war in Russian medieval history. In particularly gloomy periods in Russia's past (which is saying something) the white rider himself actually has shed his idealism and become the dark rider. For example, Ivan the IV began his rule by diligently regenerating Russia's fortunes, before degenerating into the psychotic madman better known to history as Ivan the Terrible.

Under the rule of the dark rider, Russia descends into an extremely strict period of internal control and external aggression, which is largely dictated by Russia's geographic weaknesses. Unlike the United States, with its deep hinterland, extensive coasts and lengthy and navigable river networks, Russia's expansive barren landscape and lack of maritime transport options make trade, development and all-around life a constant struggle. Russia also lacks any meaningful barriers to hide behind, leaving it consistently vulnerable to outside attack.

Understanding that this geographic reality leaves Russia extremely insecure is critical to understanding Russia's dark periods. Once the dark rider takes the state's reins, he acts by any means necessary to achieve Russian security. Internal opposition is ruthlessly quashed, economic life is fully subjugated to the state's needs and Russia's armies are built furiously with the intent of securing unsecurable borders. That typically means war: As Catherine the Great famously put it: "I have no way to defend my borders except to extend them."

After a period of unification and expansion under the dark rider, Russia inevitably suffers from overextension. No land power can endlessly expand: the farther its troops are from core territories, the more expensive they are to maintain and the more vulnerable they are to counterattack by foreign forces. Similarly, the more non-Russians who are brought under the aegis of the Russian state, the less able the state is to impose its will on its population -- at least without Stalin-style brute force. This overextension just as inevitably leads to stagnation as the post-dark rider leadership attempts to come to grips with Russia's new reality, but lacks the resources to do so. Attempts at reform transform stagnation into decline. Stalin gives way to a miscalculating Nikita Khrushchev, a barely conscious Leonid Brezhnev, an outmatched Mikhail Gorbachev and a very drunk Boris Yeltsin. A new disaster eventually manifests and the cycle begins anew.

Why the Crackdown?

The April 14-15 protests occurred at an inflection point between the second and third parts of the cycle -- as the white rider is giving way to a dark rider. Past Russian protests that involved 2,500 total people at most would have been allowed simply because they did not matter. The Putin government has a majority in the rubber-stamp Duma sufficient to pass any law or constitutional change in a short afternoon of parliamentary fury. All meaningful political parties have been disbanded, criminalized or marginalized; the political system is fully under Kremlin control. The Kasparov/Kasyanov protests did not threaten Putin in any meaningful way -- yet in both Moscow and St. Petersburg a few dozen people were blocked, beaten and hauled off to court.

This development was no accident. Roughly 9,000 riot police do not spontaneously materialize anywhere, and certainly not as the result of an overenthusiastic or less-than-sober local commander. A crackdown in one city could be a misunderstanding; a crackdown in two is state policy. And one does not send hundreds of batons swinging but allow ******* to keep filming unless the objective is to allow the world to see. Putin chose to make these protests an issue.

Putin, then, is considering various groups and rationalizing his actions in the context of Russia's historical cycle:

The West: Putin certainly does not want any Western capital to think he will take exiled oligarch Boris Berezovsky's recent threats of possible revolution lying down. Berezovsky says violence is a possibility -- a probability even -- in the future of regime change in Russia? Fine. Putin can and did quite easily demonstrate that, when it comes to the application of force in internal politics, the Russian government remains without peer.
The people: Putin knows that governance is not so much about ruling as it is about managing expectations. Russians crave stability, and Putin's ability to grant that stability has earned him significant gravitas throughout Russia as well as a grudging respect from even his most stalwart foes. He is portraying groups such as the Other Russia as troublemakers and disturbers of the peace. Such explanations make quite attractive packaging to the average Russian.
The opposition: It is one thing to oppose a wildly powerful and popular government. It is another thing when that government beats you while the people nod approvingly and the international community barely murmurs its protest. Putin has driven home the message that the opposition is not just isolated and out of touch, but that it is abandoned.
The Kremlin: Just because Putin is disappointed that his dreams are unattainable does not mean he wants to be tossed out the proverbial air lock. Showing any weakness during a transition period in Russian culture is tantamount to surrender -- particularly when Russia's siloviki (nationalists) are always seeking to rise to the top of the heap. Putin knows he has to be firm if he is to play any role in shaping Russia during and after the transition. After all, should Medvedev and Ivanov fail to make the grade, someone will need to rule Russia -- and the only man alive with more experience than Putin has a blood-alcohol level that precludes sound decision-making.

One word : BS.

[Rictor]

and one thing that angers me. all this dumbfvcks protesting on our streets is just protesting. i mean "to hell with government, kick them off!!" and then what? we have this sort of shyte in nearby past, when some of ex-party political elite incite a huge changes without any plan to handle them. we, here, remember those times briefly. we don't want same shyte again. so, i recommend to those protesters go fvck themself and stop messing in our country, and i think this is opinion of majority.

The fact you consider their reason for protesting to be illegitimate does not suddenly rob them of their right to assemble. They could be demonstrating against itchy underwear for all it matters - one's freedoms are not determined by the popularity of one's cause.

And I would also point out that the number of people who attended these latest protests, as well as the earlier St.Petersburg one, despite police discouragement, clearly shows that some real section of the population, however small, does in fact support those views.

[koozya]

lol white rider dark rider what is all this bull****

[Mr.K]

Im confused...

Do you think Im Russian in Russia?

or

American in America?
You're confused and can't answer properly, end of the story.
I guess that if you go out and prostest against your goverment and on top of that have a natzbol flag IN AMERICA, you'd end up being locked up quicker than you think.

Edit : to make it more obvious, you never protested against authority, thats why you're convinced that you are free.

[Digimon]

By the way, the era of Dark Rider is coming in Russia according to Startfor.
Neil Gaiman with his "American Gods" must rest in peace.
Zorya Utrennyaya and Zorya Vechernyaya, having escaped from the Regime to the Land of Brave and Free stirred up Chernobog's black heart
and Peter Zeihan capabilities of Kabbalistic signs reader .



One word : BS.

I think he got it all wrong... Yeltsin was the "White Rider"... p-)

[asch]

The fact you consider their reason for protesting to be illegitimate does not suddenly rob them of their right to assemble. They could be demonstrating against itchy underwear for all it matters - one's freedoms are not determined by the popularity of one's cause.
i don't consider their reason for protesting to be illegitimate, i consider a whole idea stupid. yeah, let's incite another one big fvckin' revolution! bull****. they have nothing to offer.


And I would also point out that the number of people who attended these latest protests, as well as the earlier St.Petersburg one, despite police discouragement, clearly shows that some real section of the population, however small, does in fact support those views.
yup. some real small section. well, i respect their views. good luck in next elections p-)

[Switek]

what's your point? as far as i know, there is no considerable opposition inside Russia. just attention whores and silly clowns like Limonov, Kasparov etc. and we all know everready willingness of certain countries to stickin it's nose in the business of others.

yes, OMON is overreacting.
no, for now it's hard to say on which level that mistake was done.

and one thing that angers me. all this dumbfvcks protesting on our streets is just protesting. i mean "to hell with government, kick them off!!" and then what? we have this sort of shyte in nearby past, when some of ex-party political elite incite a huge changes without any plan to handle them. we, here, remember those times briefly. we don't want same shyte again. so, i recommend to those protesters go fvck themself and stop messing in our country, and i think this is opinion of majority.

My point is simple: there is much more internal anger over Putin's regime that I could expect and has nothing to do with "funding" from abroad. Just many political problems which aren't solved yet. Actual "political stabilisation" in Russia is much more fragile than is officialy declared by Putin's clique members.

Argumentation that there is no mature opposition in Russia seems ridiculous for me. Well radicals on the streets are turning into respectable polititians when they enter to parliament, for example. Anyway there is no real opposition in national scale in Russia, becouse... you know it better than me.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

i don't consider their reason for protesting to be illegitimate, i consider a whole idea stupid. yeah, let's incite another one big fvckin' revolution! bull****. they have nothing to offer.


yup. some real small section. well, i respect their views. good luck in next elections p-)

Agreed that the whole idea of any change in Russian power structures is stupid.... the degree of stability that exists is vital to Russia's development and the world right now. The party of the dissenters is just that... a group who likes to dissent... they would dissent against just about anything.

But can we also agree that Russia is not a democracy and OMON are heavy-handed thugs?

[asch]

But can we also agree that Russia is not a democracy and OMON are heavy-handed thugs?
1. yup. Ancient Greece is a democracy.
2. children, compared to SK(<--democracy) riot police.

[Digimon]

But can we also agree that Russia is not a democracy and OMON are heavy-handed thugs?

OMON is heavy-handed no more and no less than New York police was in 2003 and 2004. If Russia is not a democracy, it is not because of OMON actions. These tactics, and the idea of designating areas for dissent, have been adopted by Russian authorities only recently. They were not the ones to invent them...

As I have mentioned elsewhere, if you want to argue that Russia is not a democracy, you should make an argument on the basis of properties that will set it apart from countries that are considered democratic. If you can't do that, and yet choose to persist in your accusations, than you are simply employing double standards.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

2. children, compared to SK(<--democracy) riot police.

I've been around when OMON started swinging clubs (on Red Square watching football on the big screen a couple of years ago) and it wasn't pretty. Admittedly the drunk fans were just as bad... in any case, as "election day" approaches I am sure things will get much more interesting, both due to an overly cautious (some may say paranoid) Putin government defending it's interests in support of their candidate and due to a power struggle among those who want to make a jump to the next level of power. If I am in Moscow around that time, I'll wear a helmet. :)

[Breakfast in Vegas]

OMON is heavy-handed no more and no less than New York police was in 2003 and 2004. If Russia is not a democracy, it is not because of OMON actions. These tactics, and the idea of designating areas for dissent, have been adopted by Russian authorities only recently. They were not the ones to invent them...

As I have mentioned elsewhere, if you want to argue that Russia is not a democracy, you should make an argument on the basis of properties that will set it apart from countries that are considered democratic. If you can't do that, and yet choose to persist in your accusations, than you are simply employing double standards.

I think the main difference between western democracies and Russian "democracy" is freedom of the press (or lack thereof) and the level of information potential voters receive, not to mention the level to which Russian politicians are corrupt.

Russia isn't even close to being on the same level as Western Europe or the US.... and how could it be? Considering where Russia was 10 years ago, Putin has done a fantastic job, even if admittedly he has been lucky at least in terms of the economy.

The major concern is which direction the country is going... is it headed in a progressive direction for the good of the people and not just the elite few, or is it headed "backwards" into an autocratic state? That's the main topic in the upcoming election and the subsequent few years. Whichever way it goes, it is a question that only the Russians themselves can and should answer.

[Digimon]

I think the main difference between western democracies and Russian "democracy" is freedom of the press (or lack thereof) and the level of information potential voters receive, not to mention the level to which Russian politicians are corrupt.


Yes. I have to agree with you there. While the press might be relatively free, the federal broadcasting media is in trouble. This is the major problem and difference.

Yet, what is interesting here is that only two federal broadcasting networks are under direct state control, but the rest seem to be fairly uncritical. As commentators point out, they are in friendly hands: some are in the hands of state controlled corporations, others in the hands of friend’s of the Kremlin. I do not accept the designation “friends of the Kremlin”, nothing stops either Blair, or Bush to be friends with owners of the major cable networks (being friendly is not a good reason to take your property away).

As far as information to potential voters is concerned it is also not a simple issue. What information are they not getting? There is less critical information on Chechnya, less criticism of the state policies, and less exposure to the representatives of right wing liberal parties. But all of these also represent issues and problems that have decreased in significance in recent years. One must not attribute the decline of liberal parties to the lack of their presence on TV, perhaps it’s the other way around. Same goes for the other issues that hardly ever left TV screens in the 90’s. One must also not discount a “group think” phenomenon that can take place in Russia as well as other countries.

I think that direct control over two or three networks is not sufficient to discount Russia as a democracy. In general, I would feel much better if the state had only one network in the form of State Corporation, like BBC – Channel One, and if Russia finalized its plans for the independently financed public television.

As far as politicians are concerned – they are corrupt. But this is not, by itself, a sign of non-democratic government, unless there are structural loopholes that allow for the corruption (e.g. judiciary being directly dependent for financing on executive branch, etc...) In Russia, this is not a structural problem; it is a problem of mentality that can be cured only over time (with proper incentives). Given two identical political organizations, one cannot be considered democratic and the other non-democratic in virtue of the states of mind of their citizens.

[Digimon]

The major concern is which direction the country is going... is it headed in a progressive direction for the good of the people and not just the elite few, or is it headed "backwards" into an autocratic state?

Unfortunately, this might be a false dichotomy.... :-(

[Flamming_Python]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/17/AR2007041701338.html?hpid=sec-world


Kremlin Says Riot Police Overreacted
Rare Admission of Fault Follows International Outcry Over Beating of Protesters
By Peter Finn
Washington Post Foreign Service
Wednesday, April 18, 2007; Page A18


MOSCOW, April 17 -- A Kremlin spokesman said Tuesday that the beating of demonstrators at opposition rallies in Moscow and St. Petersburg over the weekend was an "overreaction" by riot police who were attempting to ensure "law and order on the streets."

The statement by Dmitry Peskov, on the Russia Today television station, followed strong international criticism of the police. Germany, which holds the rotating presidency of the European Union, said the police tactics were unacceptable, while the United States said the policing was "heavy-handed."

Peskov's statement was a rare admission of fault by the Russian government, which has largely defended the violent dispersal of demonstrators. Officials have charged that the organizers, led by former world chess champion Garry Kasparov, deliberately chose not to rally at an approved location in order to spark street clashes.

Kasparov was arrested as he made his way to the demonstration Saturday on Moscow's Pushkin Square. He was released after a court appearance during which he was fined the equivalent of about $39. The FSB, Russia's internal security agency, later said it was investigating Kasparov because of an interview he gave to the Russian radio station Echo Moskvy. Officials said he could be charged with inciting extremism for calling on people to join the march.

Peskov expressed frustration at the amount of coverage the marches received in the foreign news media, noting that Kasparov and his allies enjoy little support in Russia.

"Everybody accepts these actions were quite limited" in number of participants, he said. "But of course, the very fact of these actions draws extreme attention from foreign media. And in the foreign media, a certain exaggeration took place, really."

The state-controlled television networks ignored the marches except to characterize them as the work of radicals who are probably financed from abroad. That is a theme that is gaining greater currency here as Russians who support the Kremlin charge that the United States, in particular, is bent on fomenting the kind of street revolutions that toppled governments in neighboring Ukraine and Georgia.

Former Soviet president Mikhail Gorbachev, who oversaw the demise of communist rule, was the latest figure to articulate that position.

Speaking Tuesday at a seminar in Moscow, he said: "Previously, the CIA would channel money to opposition forces in the countries picked by the State Department. Now opposition forces are being financed through a system of various institutions and funds. This probably explains why such organizations have been mushrooming in this country."

The United States says that it provides only modest financing to strengthen what it describes as nonpartisan grass-roots organizations in Russia involved in building democratic institutions.

President Vladimir Putin has said repeatedly that he will not tolerate foreign funding of political activity here. Last year's tightening of laws governing nongovernmental organizations was intended to prevent foreign interference in Russia's internal political affairs, he has said.

Russian officials bristle at what they regard as unfair criticism from abroad, most recently a State Department report that addressed the Kremlin's centralization of power, intolerance of dissent and curbs on the media.

Gorbachev also said Tuesday that he was concerned about press freedom. "Every quarter, a new television channel passes over to state ownership, which looks like nationalization," he said. "We cannot get exhaustive information that would keep citizens informed and allow them to judge."

Gorbachev is a minority shareholder in the newspaper Novaya Gazeta, a crusading publication that regularly criticizes the government. Its most prominent journalist, Anna Politkovskaya, was assassinated last year. The killing remains unresolved.

Gorbachev said that whatever flaws exist in the country are issues to be resolved by Russians, not outsiders. He has been generally admiring of the stability and increasing prosperity that Putin has overseen during the last seven years, while expressing some concern about an increasing lack of political pluralism.

"A sovereign state cannot live using patterns imposed on it," he said. "We must assume a clear-cut position: Democratic processes must grow on the national soil. Only this way will they be effective and influence the situation in the country."

But Kasparov and others say it is the lack of any major forum for open debate that is driving them onto the streets. And the overwhelming police response, they say, is further proof that the Kremlin won't tolerate effective opposition as it prepares for parliamentary and presidential elections over the next year.

Former Russian prime minister Mikhail Kasyanov, an ally of Kasparov, said the group would not stand down. "Of course, new 'marches of the discontented' will follow as a form of protest," he said Monday on Echo Moskvy radio. "The authorities themselves are provoking this standoff. We witness the ultimate suppression of political freedom . . . it looks like they are telling us, 'Get down on your knees, cringe and do what we tell you to do.' "

[Danik]

You're confused and can't answer properly, end of the story.
I guess that if you go out and prostest against your goverment and on top of that have a natzbol flag IN AMERICA, you'd end up being locked up quicker than you think.

Edit : to make it more obvious, you never protested against authority, thats why you're convinced that you are free.

I did not answer anything. He claimed I have less freedom because of the Patriot act, which is not true, because there has not been any changes to my personal freedoms stemming from the patriot act. This is the same type of sh0t as americans telling russians how free they are in their own country. If you dont like when americans complain about your freedoms in russia, then dont complain to me about my freedoms in the US. Since Im not your typical American(born in CCCP), the fact that I speak fluent russian and have been to Russia, Latvia, Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia, and Hungary I can tell you that while you have better minor personal freedoms(things that are entrusted to you by the government because htey assume that you are adults, where as ours assumes we are toddlers), such as the right to smoke and drink where you want too as long as its socialy acceptable, I have better political freedoms. The only threat that comes to me from my politcal stance is from the people standing around union square in nyc comparing bush to a nazi, and waving communist flags. They can openly threaten me, my govenment does nothing to me.

On that note, Wether its Russia or USA any protest where people gather with no permission deserve to be arrested. Beating people down was a bit excessive.


PS. I have marched against "the government", I finished, and took the train home, baton-bruising free.