Question about Dassault fighters

[raoul volfoni]

Hi

Do you have any idea about why all the "latest" Dassault fighter planes (Mirage F1, Mirage 2000, Rafale) use a fixed refuelling probe instead of a retractable one ?

I wonder if it does not obstruct the pilots view.

[Atlantic Friend]

I guess it's just simpler than having a retractable one ? Maybe it is also safer, as the pilot is 100% certain to be able to refuel in mid-air ?

[FROGFOOT-MKDN]

Saves weight & space, which if you saw those fighters is a big issue. Obstruction of the view cause of it is not an issue since it is at an angle that is identical with the canopy close down edge. The added drag cause of the fixed position is minimal.
Or for detailed answers you could always write to Dassault. :-)

[raoul volfoni]

Thanks guys.
your answers seem right.

I wish some pilot would give his opinion about this too :)

[Fireglow]

As you see Rafales cockpit view is good.

[Fireglow]

And it's a same thing on Mirage 2000. On the right side of cockpit.

[raoul volfoni]

Well I know how they look, that is why I was asking the question.
It looks like there is an angle where their view is blocked so I guessed it could be a potential nuisance.

[FROGFOOT-MKDN]

Little off topic, if Italians know their stuff in designing cars, then French design the most beautiful aircraft.

[Bokwa]

Hi

Do you have any idea about why all the "latest" Dassault fighter planes (Mirage F1, Mirage 2000, Rafale) use a fixed refuelling probe instead of a retractable one ?

I wonder if it does not obstruct the pilots view.

The South African F1 have a retractable refueling probe.

[raoul volfoni]

The South African F1 have a retractable refueling probe.
Really ???
I didn't know that. So it means that the choice for a fixed probe is deliberate.
Then I guess the French Air force thinks it is a better solution.
Very surprising.

Also, while looking for pics of these aircrafts on google image, I stumbled upon a pic of a Rafale with no refuelling probe. I don't know if it was some sort of pre-version or a test plane but I'll try to find this pic again.

Edit: here it is
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/6382/rafale01zh8.jpg

[Bokwa]

Well, I don't know the real reason, but a fixed probe will cause considerable drag. The SA F1 with the Atar 09C engine was very underpowered and was no match for the Mig23 and hardly a match for the Mig21 (allthough they had 2 confirmed kills during the bush war without any loss). So I would guess that for SA it was a consideration to reduce drag and also the fact that at the stage of delivery of the F1's, SA's only refueling capability was from a refueling pod on a Buccaneer!

[Atlantic Friend]

Well, I don't know the real reason, but a fixed probe will cause considerable drag. The SA F1 with the Atar 09C engine was very underpowered and was no match for the Mig23 and hardly a match for the Mig21 (allthough they had 2 confirmed kills during the bush war without any loss). So I would guess that for SA it was a consideration to reduce drag and also the fact that at the stage of delivery of the F1's, SA's only refueling capability was from a refueling pod on a Buccaneer!

Would the drag be that considerable ? I mean, most French fighters are actually fighter-bombers, and carry their armaments externally, so wouldn't the drag of the refueling pylon minimal when compared to the drag of the weapon pylons ?

[Bokwa]

Yes, in the air to ground role it would not make much of a difference as the bomb load drag would be much greater. But in the air to air role it would most likely only carry the 2 wingtip AA missiles with the internal 30mm cannon. Then, any unneccessary drag would be unwelcome. In the air to air role (especially when facing a fast adversary like a Mig23) you need the F1 as "clean" as possible to get that extra speed out of it. The refueling capability at the time of delivery must have played a role too.

How about getting the opinion of Dassault? That could be interesting.

[wilhelm]

Well, I don't know the real reason, but a fixed probe will cause considerable drag. The SA F1 with the Atar 09C engine was very underpowered and was no match for the Mig23 and hardly a match for the Mig21 (allthough they had 2 confirmed kills during the bush war without any loss). So I would guess that for SA it was a consideration to reduce drag and also the fact that at the stage of delivery of the F1's, SA's only refueling capability was from a refueling pod on a Buccaneer!

The Mirage F1 is not powered by the 6200kg ATAR 09C, but the ATAR 9k50 of 7200kg thrust, an engine roughly in the j-79 category. I still think that the F1 would have benefitted by being fitted with the M-53 engine of about 9000kg thrust. There was a testbed Mirage F1 flown with this engine in the early 1970's.