Belgian Army goes MOLLE (56k beware)

[Cardinal]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/220/472238613_6b43ab88e5_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/211/472223610_1e8bbf66b6_b.jpg

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http://farm1.static.flickr.com/217/472224016_d165585fbf_b.jpg

[akruD]

Looks a bit bargain-basement. Looks could be decieving mind you.

[Cardinal]

I can assure you, these are the real thing. Took the pics myself yesterday at Infopol, Belgium's largest police and security fair. These vests will be issued in desert colouring for our troops in Afghanistan and the Lebanon, and in woodland for other troops. Manufacturer is Norway's NHM.

[solidarnosc]

It think you mean NFM.

[Cardinal]

Yep, sorry.

[lt tahoe]

Maybe it's just the mannequin, but the arm holes look huge on that armor--the DAPS only help offset that a little.

[dobrodan]

I can assure you, these are the real thing. Took the pics myself yesterday at Infopol, Belgium's largest police and security fair. These vests will be issued in desert colouring for our troops in Afghanistan and the Lebanon, and in woodland for other troops. Manufacturer is Norway's NHM.

NFM?

Poor you...

IMO, very expensive crap...

[Hawkeye]

NFM?

Poor you...

IMO, very expensive crap...
The quality isn't very good or what?


And they make it look better than it's actually issued. Belgian troops only get 1 grenade pouch, 2 mag pouches and a IFAK-pouch. No pistol mag pouches, no Safariland holsters, and not that extra pouch (I don't know what it's for) ...

[SMGLee]

I am just basing my opinion off the picture and this is a off the base comment. from the looks of it, it just don't make sense when you can equip the man with a molle armor carrier instead of an add on MOLLE vest to the body armor. US did this a while back but not has gone completely over to modular ARmor carrier. It also tell me a little coop with Blackhawk was in order from the water reservior nozzle, that looks like a hellstorm.

[dobrodan]

The quality isn't very good or what?


And they make it look better than it's actually issued. Belgian troops only get 1 grenade pouch, 2 mag pouches and a IFAK-pouch. No pistol mag pouches, no Safariland holsters, and not that extra pouch (I don't know what it's for) ...

The quality is probably good enough, but my experiences is that their vests is ill-fitting and unpleasant to wear, especially without any kind of protective vest under, as it is not padded over the shoulders.

Also, the pouches are not up to the job. They are often bulky, and constructed in such a way that they are stiff and difficult to operate. On the Norwegian vests, we have a useless pouch called a "multi-pocket", which is amongst other meant for magazines... This is a complete failure, as it does not support the magazines, and too often they fall out. And when it is not full, the magazines bang into each other, and make a lot of noise...

[dobrodan]

I am just basing my opinion off the picture and this is a off the base comment. from the looks of it, it just don't make sense when you can equip the man with a molle armor carrier instead of an add on MOLLE vest to the body armor. US did this a while back but not has gone completely over to modular ARmor carrier. It also tell me a little coop with Blackhawk was in order from the water reservior nozzle, that looks like a hellstorm.

I totally agree with you!

An armor-carrier would be the best and most flexible solution!

[solidarnosc]

I am just basing my opinion off the picture and this is a off the base comment. from the looks of it, it just don't make sense when you can equip the man with a molle armor carrier instead of an add on MOLLE vest to the body armor. US did this a while back but not has gone completely over to modular ARmor carrier. It also tell me a little coop with Blackhawk was in order from the water reservior nozzle, that looks like a hellstorm.


The reason is probably that Belgian army operates much less in dangerous enviroments than the US. I have seen a lot of pics of Belgian soldiers in Lebonon waring the MOLLE vest without the body armour. "Modular" is currently the buzz word in Belgian army magazines but I suppose other "modular" options were available. ;)

[SMGLee]

The reason is probably that Belgian army operates much less in dangerous enviroments than the US. I have seen a lot of pics of Belgian soldiers in Lebonon waring the MOLLE vest without the body armour. "Modular" is currently the buzz word in Belgian army magazines but I suppose other "modular" options were available. ;)

being in danger or not, that is not the problem, rather you operate in dangerous enviroment or not, you should always equip your highly prized, highly trained soldier with the protection to face the ever increasing danger in the world. you can never tell on the battle field from one minute to another, you should always be expecting the worst. even in a peace keeping capacity, you never know if someone decide to put a 7.62x52 in you.

Look at the patch on the shoulder, the vest is for the ISAF that is operating in Afghanstan, and you don't think that is a dangerous place? heck i wear a vest just to go to sleep.. :)

I think this is the old way of thinking, armor carrier and MOLLE vest which was a lot like the older style US military MOLLE set up.

I also noticed a lot of siongle stitching on the pouches, maybe just my old eyes, but i would prefer a nice double stitching at least.

Nevertheless, There is nothing wrong with the setup, I just think since you are spending the dough, might as well upgrade to the latest developement. just my 2 cents and I went to an art college...;)

[Catch22]

I am just basing my opinion off the picture and this is a off the base comment. from the looks of it, it just don't make sense when you can equip the man with a molle armor carrier instead of an add on MOLLE vest to the body armor. US did this a while back but not has gone completely over to modular ARmor carrier. It also tell me a little coop with Blackhawk was in order from the water reservior nozzle, that looks like a hellstorm.

Since I know most guys from NFM (their production, R&D site is in Poland), I'd say they Belgian setup is just what the Belgians wanted, they could choose something other, they could have practically any design they like. I wont comment on the design itself, because it would be kinda unfair (im in the business myself), but here are few things I can comment on:

- NFM is a dealer for Source Hydration, so if they put BHI bladder on display its the Belgian idea.

- Actually this vest (modified Bear II model) (even without the ****flap, collar or daps) can act as a regular plate carrier (it has pouches for standard SAPI plates on back front, the front one is foldable). Why in the earth Belgians wanted such strange soft ballistic panels I cant say. The soft ballistics are from german BSST company, a partner of NFM in so called Protec Alliance.

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/9780/nfmkamtak02bv8.jpg

Here you can see a front plate pocket unrolled, vest opened for display

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2124/nfmkamtak03fx0.jpg
Behind the hydration pocket is a back hard plate pocket too.

- NFM actually designed few decent integrated vests, last one of them for Polish CBŚ entry teams (equivalent of FBI), Having worn this vest I can say NFM guys are capable of making a fully up to modern day standards, integrated modular armor carrier with cummerbund and all that (see pic below). Model is called "Jackal"

http://www.kujawsko-pomorska.policja.gov.pl/files_image/20070411/narkotyki5_d.jpg
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2526/nfmkamzint01mj2.jpg

- Yes I agree with dobrodan at point where he says NFM is too pricy, although they use good materials.

The photos are made by AdAm during the LE technology fair, that took place last week in Warsaw.

[solidarnosc]

being in danger or not, that is not the problem, rather you operate in dangerous enviroment or not, you should always equip your highly prized, highly trained soldier with the protection to face the ever increasing danger in the world. you can never tell on the battle field from one minute to another, you should always be expecting the worst. even in a peace keeping capacity, you never know if someone decide to put a 7.62x52 in you.

Look at the patch on the shoulder, the vest is for the ISAF that is operating in Afghanstan, and you don't think that is a dangerous place? heck i wear a vest just to go to sleep.. :)

I think this is the old way of thinking, armor carrier and MOLLE vest which was a lot like the older style US military MOLLE set up.

I also noticed a lot of siongle stitching on the pouches, maybe just my old eyes, but i would prefer a nice double stitching at least.

Nevertheless, There is nothing wrong with the setup, I just think since you are spending the dough, might as well upgrade to the latest developement. just my 2 cents and I went to an art college...;)

Bureaucracy at Belgian MOD probably can't keep up with recent developments. ;) Anyway it looks like a huge improvement compared with current kit.

[Aude sapere]

Look at the patch on the shoulder, the vest is for the ISAF that is operating in Afghanstan, and you don't think that is a dangerous place? heck i wear a vest just to go to sleep.. :)

Don't mix up ISAF and Operation Enduring Freedom. A lot of the work done north is CIMIC and PRT activity, and you don't build much trust if you look like you are going to kill those you want to help.

Sometime you just need to carry around a few extra bits of kit, and don't need much protection (Kosovo and Lebanon for example), and sometimes you need a lot of protection but don't need to carry around any kit.

That you need fifteen magazines, helmet and body armour where ever you go is a typical American approach. Looks kind of funny in Kosovo with battle-equipped American soldiers on foot patrol with European troops without any body armour, a beret and an assault rifle with one magazine inserted and another one in the pocket. Guess who looks less hostile?

[SMGLee]

I guess being an American, I would take the American approach.:) you can never know, specially when you are in a police action, peace keeping, which ever action that a military force are currently in, it is nice to have all the options. so not necessarily that you have to wear everything, but at least you have the option.

since I am not in the mix, this is just my 02. YMMV.

[Cardinal]

Since I know most guys from NFM (their production, R&D site is in Poland), I'd say they Belgian setup is just what the Belgians wanted, they could choose something other, they could have practically any design they like. I wont comment on the design itself, because it would be kinda unfair (im in the business myself), but here are few things I can comment on:

- NFM is a dealer for Source Hydration, so if they put BHI bladder on display its the Belgian idea.

- Actually this vest (modified Bear II model) (even without the ****flap, collar or daps) can act as a regular plate carrier (it has pouches for standard SAPI plates on back front, the front one is foldable). Why in the earth Belgians wanted such strange soft ballistic panels I cant say. The soft ballistics are from german BSST company, a partner of NFM in so called Protec Alliance.


Here you can see a front plate pocket unrolled, vest opened for display


Behind the hydration pocket is a back hard plate pocket too.

- NFM actually designed few decent integrated vests, last one of them for Polish CBŚ entry teams (equivalent of FBI), Having worn this vest I can say NFM guys are capable of making a fully up to modern day standards, integrated modular armor carrier with cummerbund and all that (see pic below). Model is called "Jackal"


- Yes I agree with dobrodan at point where he says NFM is too pricy, although they use good materials.

The photos are made by AdAm during the LE technology fair, that took place last week in Warsaw.

Thanks for the additionlal info!

[Hawkeye]

being in danger or not, that is not the problem, rather you operate in dangerous enviroment or not, you should always equip your highly prized, highly trained soldier with the protection to face the ever increasing danger in the world. you can never tell on the battle field from one minute to another, you should always be expecting the worst. even in a peace keeping capacity, you never know if someone decide to put a 7.62x52 in you.

But that just wouldn't be Belgian policy.
Our MoD wants it to look nice, work to some extent, but doesn't want to spend too much money on it all.

And that goes for everything our MoD buys! Quite sad, actually ...

[solidarnosc]

But that just wouldn't be Belgian policy.
Our MoD wants it to look nice, work to some extent, but doesn't want to spend too much money on it all.

And that goes for everything our MoD buys! Quite sad, actually ...

People here just say that NFM is expensive. ;)

[Royal]

I am just basing my opinion off the picture and this is a off the base comment. from the looks of it, it just don't make sense when you can equip the man with a molle armor carrier instead of an add on MOLLE vest to the body armor. US did this a while back but not has gone completely over to modular ARmor carrier.

I disagree totally. A seperate vest means that you can de-escalate in more permissive environments and wear either the vest (if you're yomping in the big hills and don't particularly want heat stroke) or just the armour (say you're going to the galley and there's a mortar risk, but you're driving a desk inside the wire).

It gives you both options...

[SMGLee]

Royal,

I agree with your assessment. and I think we are on the same line of idea.

With a modular armor carrier such as the CIRAS, you can wear it with out armor, with only soft armor or with plate or both.

a carrier such as the CIRAS distribut the load better and it has more realestate then a tac style vest. I used the tac vest, then chest harness and now running the carrier, I just find a well designed carrier to be a more comfortable setup compare to the rest. how ever, if i need low profile, nothing beats a good chest harness.

[Sabre]

I disagree totally. A seperate vest means that you can de-escalate in more permissive environments and wear either the vest (if you're yomping in the big hills and don't particularly want heat stroke) or just the armour (say you're going to the galley and there's a mortar risk, but you're driving a desk inside the wire).

It gives you both options...

If you're going where? ...never mind...p-)

I agree, if you're just heading from your scratcha to scoff, you don't need all your kit, but you might want some level of protection.

SMGLee: I think you've missed the point that one may not want armour at all. It's also a lot easier to just leave a rig under your scratcha and pop on the CBA, or just go in a shirt. Or to pop along to the range with just your rig and no armour etc etc.

If you also consider that, for example, the UK forces now have effectively two sets of CBA on issue (the lower protection level ECBA and the higher protection Osprey), you can easily choose which to opt for and still have your kit rigged and ready to go without faffing.

[Catch22]

I suppose we could beat this to death.

Some folks want their ballistics separate from their kit (be it beltkit, vest or chestrig), some want it togheter, modular and stuff. There are pro's and con's towards both setups. The main advantages of integrated modular vest (like US FSBE/FSBE 2 line) is that they are reasonably comfortable, not too bulky (as the thing often happen with kit worn over ballistic vest) and they have QR incorporated which may prove critical when wounded. But at the same time they generally fail to work with anything larger than a small assault backpack.

I can speak only for our guys but the general idea here is - for DA, mounted ops etc, they use integrated modular kit with QR capability. For green ops/tab/yomp you just keep the load-bearing gear with some low profile plate carrier at most.

Since now most work is being done by mounted patrols (not much falk-style TAB), the integrated modular vest for the regular grunt is a reasonable option in my opinion, so the "american way" wins.

And on a sidenote I just love the way Brits skipped the whole "modular" webbing concept of their Osprey CBA's - and still put their kit over it, sometimes just attaching PRR to the webbing. Seems like the idea didn't catch on. Or, what some guys said - you aren't being issued a sensible amount of modular pouches with it! Is that still true?

[Saber_Dart]

The Collar/yoke protection looks awful, as in uncomfortable and restricting.

[Royal]

Since now most work is being done by mounted patrols (not much falk-style TAB), the integrated modular vest for the regular grunt is a reasonable option in my opinion, so the "american way" wins.

Tell that to the lads on patrol in the hills in Afghanistan p-)


And on a sidenote I just love the way Brits skipped the whole "modular" webbing concept of their Osprey CBA's - and still put their kit over it, sometimes just attaching PRR to the webbing. Seems like the idea didn't catch on. Or, what some guys said - you aren't being issued a sensible amount of modular pouches with it! Is that still true?

Because you're far more stable and mobile with web gear worn largely round the waist - you can operate from ****e and actually use your arms to shoulder a weapon properly - which you can't do if you've got 6" of armour and then another 6" of kit wrapped round your torso.

[TacoDelRio]

I might add that most American patrols on foot have soldiers wearing armor, nearly all the time, whereas some European groups may not.

[Aude sapere]

I might add that most American patrols on foot have soldiers wearing armor, nearly all the time, whereas some European groups may not.

Well SMGLee do have an excellent point when he talks about the 'what if' security, who knows whenever that bullet comes flying in your direction, and we all know Americans aren't the most popular people on Earth. But in some cases, as in Kosovo or northern Afghanistan the whole mission is of a stabilizing nature and then you need to build trust with the locals.

You take off your sunglasses when you speak with the village elders (hopefully, if you have any respect for other cultures), but if you keep your kevlar on you still send out a rather hostile message, that says that you don't trust these people.

Maybe a little off-topic but I believe Americans are often a bit bad at building trust between themselves and the locals. The intervention in Somalia is a good example, the Americans saw it as a fast stabilizing mission and went in pretty rough handed. The Italians (that as you know had previous experience of being in Somalia) knew about the importance of dealing with the village elders and choosing the path where you openly said that you were in their turf and you were there as guests, and respected them. This involved sitting down with the village elders, and taking of those sunglasses and kevlar, and trusting the locals.

[SMGLee]

I agree, American operations are somewhat tend to go heavy on the civilian poplation. Look no further then Iraq. The big green machine with the big tanks, APC, Strikers, heavily armed foot patrol, big fenced off compound and loud rock music. .. It might have been better served with SF blending into the population and working with the locals. Again.. I am not in the mix and I understand a country that big, you need force presnce.. instead of SF supporting the big Army operations, it should be the other way around.. have the big Army support theSF effort in getting the locals to think more positive about the US effort.

this is getting way off subject... sorry.

[TacoDelRio]

You take off your sunglasses when you speak with the village elders (hopefully, if you have any respect for other cultures), but if you keep your kevlar on you still send out a rather hostile message, that says that you don't trust these people.

I completely agree with you. I understand that wearing any form of armor, helmets and vests/carriers does show that the Soldiers (or at least their command) feel that there is an elevated risk level (or whatever). I've seen pictures (this is MPnet) of British Soldiers without vests and helmets, and I thought it would make the locals feel a bit more comfortable.

[dez000]

The vest in use.

http://www.mil.be/isaf/viewpic.asp?LAN=nl&FILE=gall&ID=171522&SIZE=big
http://www.mil.be/isaf/viewpic.asp?LAN=nl&FILE=gall&ID=171527&SIZE=big
http://www.mil.be/isaf/viewpic.asp?LAN=nl&FILE=gall&ID=170294&SIZE=big
http://www.mil.be/isaf/viewpic.asp?LAN=nl&FILE=gall&ID=170408&SIZE=big
http://www.mil.be/isaf/viewpic.asp?LAN=nl&FILE=gall&ID=170401&SIZE=big
http://www.mil.be/isaf/viewpic.asp?LAN=nl&FILE=gall&ID=169493&SIZE=big

[solidarnosc]

Equipment and uniforms have improved quite a bit recent years in my opinion but "dress code" if that's correct seems quite lax, or they have some shortages in some parts of the equipment. Its like everybody has its own opinion how it should be done. Maybe typical Belgian or maybe I am wrong in this. I don't know but this time we are not chased by the German army so that's no excuse. ;)

http://www.mil.be/isaf/viewpic.asp?LAN=nl&FILE=gall&ID=171387&SIZE=big

I don't know the guy. I am sure he's professional and all that but this looks scary even to Belgian standards. ;) It could be that some of the pics (like this one) were taken inside the base and that they give us a wrong impression. Anyway huge amount of recent pics over here.

http://www.mil.be/isaf/galllist/index.asp?LAN=nl&FILE=&ID=0&IDS=43&IDT=439

[Aude sapere]

The vest looks quite similar to the new Finnish vest. Compare:

http://tietokannat.mil.fi/eubg/include/thumbnail.php?id=43&width=640

[Erki]

So, what kind of SAPI plates have the belgian army put into their new vests?

[Catch22]

2D Ceramic, from German BSST company, as far as I know. Not quite sure about the NIJ level, guess III+