How three million Germans died after VE Day

[Loki77]

Nigel Jones reviews After the Reich: From the Liberation of Vienna to the Berlin Airlift by Giles MacDonogh


Giles MacDonogh is a bon viveur and a historian of wine and gastronomy, but in this book, pursuing his other consuming interest - German history - he serves a dish to turn the strongest of stomachs. It makes particularly uncomfortable reading for those who compare the disastrous occupation of Iraq unfavourably to the post-war settlement of Germany and Austria.
MacDonogh argues that the months that followed May 1945 brought no peace to the shattered skeleton of Hitler's Reich, but suffering even worse than the destruction wrought by the war. After the atrocities that the Nazis had visited on Europe, some degree of justified vengeance by their victims was inevitable, but the appalling bestialities that MacDonogh documents so soberly went far beyond that. The first 200 pages of his brave book are an almost unbearable chronicle of human suffering.

His best estimate is that some three million Germans died unnecessarily after the official end of hostilities. A million soldiers vanished before they could creep back to the holes that had been their homes. The majority of them died in Soviet captivity (of the 90,000 who surrendered at Stalingrad, only 5,000 eventually came home) but, shamingly, many thousands perished as prisoners of the Anglo-Americans. Herded into cages along the Rhine, with no shelter and very little food, they dropped like flies. Others, more fortunate, toiled as slave labour in a score of Allied countries, often for years. Incredibly, some Germans were still being held in Russia as late as 1979.

The two million German civilians who died were largely the old, women and children: victims of disease, cold, hunger, suicide - and mass murder.
Apart from the well-known repeated rape of virtually every girl and woman unlucky enough to be in the Soviet occupation zones, perhaps the most shocking outrage recorded by MacDonogh - for the first time in English - is the slaughter of a quarter of a million Sudeten Germans by their vengeful Czech compatriots. The survivors of this ethnic cleansing, naked and shivering, were pitched across the border, never to return to their homes. Similar scenes were seen across Poland, Silesia and East Prussia as age-old German communities were brutally expunged.

Given that what amounted to a lesser Holocaust was unfolding under their noses, it may be asked why the western Allies did not stop this venting of long-dammed-up rage on the (mainly) innocent. MacDonogh's answer is that it could all have been even worse. The US Treasury Secretary, Henry Morgenthau, favoured turning Germany into a gigantic farm, and there were genocidal Nazi-like schemes afoot to starve, sterilise or deport the population of what was left of the bombed-out cities.
The discovery of the Nazi death camps stoked Allied fury, with General George Patton asking an aide amid the horrors of Buchenwald: 'Do you still find it hard to hate them?' But the surviving inmates were soon replaced by German captives - Dachau, Buchenwald, Sachsenhausen and even Auschwitz stayed in business after the war, only now with the Germans behind the wire.

It was Realpolitik, not humanitarian concern, that caused a swift shift in western attitudes towards their former foes. Fear of Communism spreading into the heart of Europe, and the barbarities of the Russians - who kidnapped and killed hundreds of their perceived enemies from the western zones of Berlin and Vienna - belatedly made the West realise that they had beaten one totalitarian power only to be threatened by another.
Even that hardline Kraut-hater Patton was sacked for advocating a pre-emptive strike against Russia. Building up West Germany and saving Berlin from Soviet strangulation with the 1948 airlift became the first battles of the Cold War - even if that meant overlooking Nazi crimes and enlisting Nazi criminals in the 'economic miracle' of reconstruction.
Although MacDonogh roundly condemns all the occupying powers, the British emerge with some credit. Apart from one Air Marshal who looted art treasures; and an MI5 interrogator nicknamed 'Tin Eye' Stephens who ran a private torture chamber, British hands may have been grubby, but were not deeply blood-stained. British squaddies preferred to purchase their sex privately with a packet of fags or a pair of nylons, rather than in the Soviet style.

MacDonogh has written a gruelling but important book. This unhappy story has long been cloaked in silence since telling it suited no one. Not the Allies, because it placed them near the moral nadir of the Nazis; nor the Germans, because they did not wish to be accused of whitewashing Hitler by highlighting what was, by any standard, a war crime. Giles MacDonogh has told a very inconvenient truth.

telegraph.co.uk (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2007/04/15/bomac14.xml)

[Royal]

and an MI5 interrogator nicknamed 'Tin Eye' Stephens who ran a private torture chamber, British hands may have been grubby, but were not deeply blood-stained.

Just to set the record straight.

Lt Col Stepehens was completly exonerated in a court martial arising from the compaints over the CSDICs at Bad Nenndorf and Diest. Stephens was CO of Camp 020 at Ham in London throughout the war years and wrote the standing orders for the interrogation of all HVTs by MI5 and the military (published as "A digest of Ham" and reprinted as part of "Camp 020" by HMSO). He was explicit in both orders and deed that prisoners were not to be mistreated (he RTUd an army interrogator for striking a prisoner - the only time it happened at Ham).

He was certainly a strange man, but to describe either Bad Nenndorf or Diest as a torture chamber (while under Stephen's command) is a gross slander.

[Vorian]

Giles MacDonogh has told a very inconvenient truth.


History is recorded by the winner, wasn't it? If Hitler had won, no doubt we would learn many stories of the Allies' brutalities during the war...

And before I am flamed, I don't suggest that the Nazis didn't do horrible things, or that I would prefer them to win or anything remotely similar.

[DeltaWhisky58]

And before I am flamed, I don't suggest that the Nazis didn't do horrible things, or that I would prefer them to win or anything remotely similar.

Before you are flamed - what do you call this then?

[toki]

Apart from the well-known repeated rape of virtually every girl and woman unlucky enough to be in the Soviet occupation zones
without going into every fact, but this article is dripping of exaggerations, inacuracies, leaving out of facts (Royal's post) and sensationalism.

Rapes can't be ignored, but this statement is simply false. I just have to look at my family, a part that had to flee from eastern Prussia. I had a great aunt who was raped, but i also have 10 other aunts who were not.

And speaking of Hunger: Of course many people died of hunger, but that was a direct result of total war. And then people should think about the Berlin blockade and how the allies managed to feed starving Berlin. "The winner writes history" is just another simplification.

[Vorian]

Before you are flamed - what do you call this then?

Well I don't think I was flaming....The Nazis did the Holocaust and all, but the Allies were not gentle saints that liberated people either (although there is no comparison between their crimes and Hitler's), and this is what the article suggests. I am not trying to provoke anyone. I accept the truth for what it is. The Allies defeated Hitler for political reasons, (remember Yalta) not for "saving the world from darkness", even though they did just that in the process.

Besides, history is recorded by the winners, do you suggest otherwise??

[DeltaWhisky58]

Well I don't think I was flaming....

Maybe not, but I did - carry on digging, the hole's getting deeper.

[Bohemoth]

Is there really something new in this article? Maybe for children or naive people.
There is no "clean" war and there will always be revenge in all kinds of forms.

[Zuze]

Here is one interesting site about massacares and atrocities of WW2. Both by allies and axis.
http://members.iinet.com.au/%7Egduncan/index.html

[a_very_ex_STAB]

The article quoted in the OP grossly exaggerates the death rates of German POWs held by the Western Allies at the end of WW2. However, there was a big problem with supplying them with enough food in the early days post VE day (as there simply was not enough available in Western Europe to adequately supply Allied Forces, hungry civilians and POWs).

It's hard to see what the Western Allies could have done to stop the 'ethnic cleansing' of Sudeten Germans and East Prussians etc who were kicked out of zones beyond their control.

[toki]

Besides, history is recorded by the winners, do you suggest otherwise??

Wrong: Germany records its own history and that very actively. Do you suggest otherwise?

[DeltaWhisky58]

Wrong: Germany records its own history and that very actively. Do you suggest otherwise?

What is the German take on this situation - how does it differ from the account given above?

[toki]

What is the German take on this situation - how does it differ from the account given above?

Read my post above. And with "own" history i don't mean "different history", i just wanted to point out that Vorian's comment "the winner writes history" makes it look like Germany is unable to write its own history books. And Germany is very well capable of writing down its history. I just don't like these slogans. It was more an argument against this slogan then commenting the whole text.

And this article is full of sensationalism and exaggerations, too much to go into every detail.

[Vorian]

Wrong: Germany records its own history and that very actively. Do you suggest otherwise?


No, not really. But personally, I don't trust any nation to record its own history. It is natural that it will be biased, even if the historians try not to be. I don't trust my countrymen's version of history either, but prefer to read all versions. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

And, I too would like to know what Germans say about those events. (immediately after the war, that means)

[DeltaWhisky58]

Read my post above. And with "own" history i don't mean "different history", i just wanted to point out that Vorian's comment "the winner writes history" makes it look like Germany is unable to write its own history books. And Germany is very well capable of writing down its history. I just don't like these slogans. It was more an argument against this slogan then commenting the whole text.

And this article is full of sensationalism and exaggerations, too much to go into every detail.

I'm sorry - perhaps you misunderstood my question. What I meant was how does the German view for example of the number of WW2 related deaths post-VE day differ - are MacDonogh's claims exaggerated?

[Russian_dude]

without going into every fact, but this article is dripping of exaggerations, inacuracies, leaving out of facts (Royal's post) and sensationalism.

Rapes can't be ignored, but this statement is simply false. I just have to look at my family, a part that had to flee from eastern Prussia. I had a great aunt who was raped, but i also have 10 other aunts who were not.

And speaking of Hunger: Of course many people died of hunger, but that was a direct result of total war. And then people should think about the Berlin blockade and how the allies managed to feed starving Berlin. "The winner writes history" is just another simplification.

Also I wonder what the rape rate was in Nazi occupied Soviet Union, we already know about the death rate.
I am sure their were tens of thousands of rapes in Eastern Germany, but then there were millions of Soviet Troops there. Due to the length of the war, some of the man pool was not of the highest quality, with many criminals. Many soldiers fought non stop for years and saw the devastation of their country, many had their families killed. After what the Nazis did in Soviet Union, the Red Army behaviour was a picture of restraint in comparison.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Also I wonder what the rape rate was in Nazi occupied Soviet Union, we already know about the death rate.
I am sure their were tens of thousands of rapes in Eastern Germany, but then there were millions of Soviet Troops there. Due to the length of the war, some of the man pool was not of the highest quality, with many criminals. Many soldiers fought non stop for years and saw the devastation of their country, many had their families killed. After what the Nazis did in Soviet Union, the Red Army behaviour was a picture of restraint in comparison.

This is not relevant to the topic - how the German forces behaved in Russia is not under discussion.

[toki]

I'm sorry - perhaps you misunderstood my question. What I meant was how does the German view for example of the number of WW2 related deaths post-VE day differ - are MacDonogh's claims exaggerated?

I really have to look up numbers, i'm sorry, i'm not a historian, but the way those numbers are presented seems fishy.

An example:

but, shamingly, many thousands perished as prisoners of the Anglo-Americans. Herded into cages along the Rhine, with no shelter and very little food, they dropped like flies.
This could very well be factual, but it makes it look like the allies had their sadistic joy and killed them. There was nothing to eat. In or outside of the camps. Not enough for the weak. My father was born in the war and his cousin starved to death like kids we now see in africa. That is not because the allies didn't feed them, but because the warmachinery and total war left nothing over. My point is you can easily manipulate statistics, by changing little seemingly unimportant facts. I can't help you out with numbers at the moment though, but it's too simple to just book those numbers onto the different parties, because the overall and most important factor was the lack of resources.

[Thor]

There were no "good guys" in WWII. Everything is ultimately about self-interest and geopolitics.

[Tiger75]

Geeze......this is going of the rails.......

[DeltaWhisky58]

This could very well be factual, but it makes it look like the allies had their sadistic joy and killed them. There was nothing to eat. In or outside of the camps. Not enough for the weak. My father was born in the war and his cousin starved to death like kids we now see in africa. That is not because the allies didn't feed them, but because the warmachinery and total war left nothing over. My point is you can easily manipulate statistics, by changing little seemingly unimportant facts. I can't help you out with numbers at the moment though, but it's too simple to just book those numbers onto the different parties, because the overall and most important factor was the lack of reccources.

Here is an article from Wikipedia on the Rheinwiesenlager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinwiesenlager) PoW camp network. We all know that Wikipedia is easily manipulated and not exactly the most reliable source in the world, but the figures quoted here agree with those from a Discovery/history channel documentary on the subject I watched a couple of years back. I know the area around the A2 Lager (Sinzig/Remagen) fairly well, and discussed the subject with friends there on my last visit (Oct 2004) and the general impression was that although conditions there were pretty unpleasant, numbers of deaths have been grossly exaggerated by some sources.

This article suggests total deaths in camps run by the Western Allies were around 10,000 with the worst being at camps Bad Kreuznach, Sinzig, Rheinberg, Heidesheim, Wickenrath and Büderich.

Again, I would emphasise that the above is based solely on a Wiki article, and is possibly inaccurate.

[DeltaWhisky58]

There were no "good guys" in WWII. Everything is ultimately about self-interest and geopolitics.


Geeze......this is going of the rails.......

Yes, it is going off the rails, and stupid comments such as these don't help matters. Why not make a positive contribution instead of wasting bandwidth?

[Indiana Jones]

I'm sorry - perhaps you misunderstood my question. What I meant was how does the German view for example of the number of WW2 related deaths post-VE day differ - are MacDonogh's claims exaggerated?
There is no such thing as a uniformly "German" view. The affair is as controversial in German historiography as anywhere else. That said,
the overall numbers per se are roughly accurate and represent the scholarly consensus on the matter, however, there are massive inherent methodological difficulties.
I can post a comprehensive bibliography if anyone is interested.
De Baque is an amateur, sports a distinct political agenda, and is not to be taken seriously.

[toki]

Here is an article from Wikipedia on the Rheinwiesenlager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinwiesenlager) PoW camp network. We all know that Wikipedia is easily manipulated and not exactly the most reliable source in the world, but the figures quoted here agree with those from a Discovery/history channel documentary on the subject I watched a couple of years back. I know the area around the A2 Lager (Sinzig/Remagen) fairly well, and discussed the subject with friends there on my last visit (Oct 2004) and the general impression was that although conditions there were pretty unpleasant, numbers of deaths have been grossly exaggerated by some sources.

This article suggests total deaths in camps run by the Western Allies were around 10,000 with the worst being at camps Bad Kreuznach, Sinzig, Rheinberg, Heidesheim, Wickenrath and Büderich.

Again, I would emphasise that the above is based solely on a Wiki article, and is possibly inaccurate.
The german wikipedia source (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinwiesenlager) says the same. And it's sources are coming from a commission working for the "Bundesministerium für Vertriebene, Flüchtlinge und Kriegsgeschädigte" (1949) ("federal ministry of expellees, refugees and war aggrieved"). But it also says that assessments range from 5.000 to 40.000.
Probably 10.000 out of 1.000.000. (1%). And the americans worked on solving the hygiene problems, which later showed results. Not that they didn't care at all. Which the article in this thread seems to imply.

[DeltaWhisky58]

The german wikipedia source (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinwiesenlager) says the same. And it's sources are coming from a commission working for the "Bundesministerium für Vertriebene, Flüchtlinge und Kriegsgeschädigte" (1949) ("federal ministry of expellees, refugees and war aggrieved"). But it also says that assessments range from 5.000 to 40.000.
Probably 10.000 out of 1.000.000. (1%). And the americans worked on solving the hygiene problems, which later showed results. Not that they didn't care at all. Which the article in this thread seems to imply.

Yes, either the English Wiki article is a direct translation of the German, or vice-versa. Both articles seem to dismiss Bauque's works as unreliable/inaccurate - I'd certainly listen to official German accounts before any other.

[toki]

Yes, either the English Wiki article is a direct translation of the German, or vice-versa. Both articles seem to dismiss Bauque's works as unreliable/inaccurate - I'd certainly listen to official German accounts before any other.

Yes, it's the same.

@Vorian: And what i said earlier: "the winner writes history" is a stupid assumption.

The official German inquiry about the numbers of deaths was published by the Maschke committee (named after its head, Erich Maschke) which, on behalf of the German Federal Ministry of Displaced persons, Refugees, and War Victims (Bundesministerium für Vertriebene, Flüchtlinge und Kriegsgeschädigte) researched the history of German prisoners of war on a scientific level (this is reliable, since this ministry was real and not 'wikipedia nonsense')

[Vorian]

Toki I was being general didn't refer to Germany specificly...

[Indiana Jones]

@Vorian: And what i said earlier: "the winner writes history" is a stupid assumption.

Not remotely. This assumption especially holds true if you apply it to ancient or medieval history, and also has its justification in modern times.

(P.S. An example: Take a look at the case of the Punic wars (the second one in particular), and you will immediately recognize that this old aphorism is by no means "stupid")
Cheers

[a_very_ex_STAB]

With all this fuss about German POWs in American/British custody after VE Day I suppose it would be impolite to mention the thousands of Allied POWs who died on the death marches from camps in Poland and East Prussia in the winter of 1944/45

[DeltaWhisky58]

With all this fuss about German POWs in American/British custody after VE Day I suppose it would be impolite to mention the thousands of Allied POWs who died on the death marches from camps in Poland and East Prussia in the winter of 1944/45

The fact is that this topic is about the deaths of German PoWs/civilians and not about British PoWs, the deaths of which is are not disputed.

[Indiana Jones]

Superfluous.

[Jaguar]

Incredibly, some Germans were still being held in Russia as late as 1979.


Doubt that. AFAIK the last POWs were freed in 1955.

[johanness]

A great-oncle of mine was hold in siberia from his russian wife until the date he died (1998)....cruel,crazy russians , anyway with a attitude

[Kilgor]

His best estimate is that some three million Germans died unnecessarily after the official end of hostilities. A million soldiers vanished before they could creep back to the holes that had been their homes. The majority of them died in Soviet captivity (of the 90,000 who surrendered at Stalingrad, only 5,000 eventually came home)

Bad reporting, biased at worst.
Soviet captivity was hardly the Ritz, but the survivors at the Stalingrad pocket had been starved for months and were in such a frail condition that they were beyond hope. Those men were walking corpses, the cold and malnutrition had already claimed them. The Author has also forgot to mention the severe food shortages in the soviet union at the time. Diverting ample food to feed prisoners of war, especially knowing what German captivity was like, is absurd.

[oregongrunt]

Doubt that. AFAIK the last POWs were freed in 1955.
Who was released in 1979? I've only known about the 1955 releases as well.

[TR1]

A great-oncle of mine was hold in siberia from his russian wife until the date he died (1998)....cruel,crazy russians , anyway with a attitude

yes so cruel and crazy, who would ever think that the nice and reasonable germans would ever be treated with anything but love in russia.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

guess it happens when your country is responsible for the mass killing of millions...and not only killing but attempted SYSTEMATIC genocide of entire ethnicities...i feel it hard to sympathize for common folk even if they were too scared or lured in, i still believe in popular revolt and majority opinion ruling

as for this article i find it wholly overexaggerating in its statistics and statements...tell the boo hoo ness to the 20+ million Russians who died or the 6 million Jews or maybe the 3 million Polish or the Gypsies, Yugoslavs, Czechs, French, Brits, Americans and on and on, in a war that accomplished nothing for the German side and brought ruin to thousands of families and numerous countries

if this is flamebait for the nazi-lovers on this site then do please delete my account for standing up for the victims of a disgusting worthless war b/c i want no part of a forum that would penalize me for what i just said and please believe me when i say i am holding back from what i would like to say

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

A great-oncle of mine was hold in siberia from his russian wife until the date he died (1998)....cruel,crazy russians , anyway with a attitude

yes if only they wouldve made simple camps where they could have allowed them to die bitterly and slowly but in a businesslike fashion...oh wait that only works for civilians...

[DeltaWhisky58]

if this is flamebait for the nazi-lovers on this site then do please delete my account for standing up for the victims of a disgusting worthless war b/c i want no part of a forum that would penalize me for what i just said and please believe me when i say i am holding back from what i would like to say

It is, but obviously you knew that before you posted. Trying to hold the system to ransom like to have done above will not excuse you infractions for flame baiting. You have a false opinion of your value to MP.Net - close the door behind you on your way out.

This thread progressed fairly well until a few of you decided to drag it down with the usual prejudices. This is 2007 for goodness' sake, not 1945. WW2 ended 62 years ago - the Soviet regime had blood on its hands long before 1941 so quit the hypocrisy.

[loganinkosovo]

Who was released in 1979? I've only known about the 1955 releases as well.

According to "Soldiers of Misfortune" and taken from soviet records, the last American from WWII held in the Gulags died in 1982. So Germans released in 55 or 79 won't get too much sympathy from me. At least they were released.

http://www.amazon.com/Soldiers-Misfortune-Washingtons-Betrayal-American/dp/0915765837/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-9464383-6728736?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177666938&sr=1-1


Soldiers of Misfortune: Washington's Secret Betrayal of American Pow's in the Soviet Union

[Kitsune]

Not that what MacDonogh writes here are new revelations. The shocking thing is only that so many people do not know this. Most Americans actually believe that after WWII everything was nice and happy and that the Germans were treated well. Since the German Federal Republic has supported this myth from inception, even many Germans have no idea: one just opened a new page after WWII, many of those people who were killed because of largely ethnic reasons in the years which followed WWII were simply written off as casualties of the war. Admittedly, there was still some protest about this, but what there was ended in the seventies and eighties, when people took over who were influenced by the leftist spirit of the late sixties. One of their main paradigm was to cleanse society from every leftover of the Nazi era and to do so, every ounce of guilt had to be admitted. And since any protesting of cruelties influcted upon the Germans smacked of deflecting guilt this was considered suspicious and not done.
To this very day, there is no monument or no day of remembrance for the many civilians who were killed in 1945 to 1948. Not a single voicing of regret by the victors has taken place - WWII is still depicted as a great hero's story of liberation (a tendency that even has increased in recent times). On the contrary: some people can even state openly that they do no regret this, do not consider it a crime and that it was completely fair to do so. At the same time, one has progressed to persecute warcrimes perpetrated by Germans in WWII to a degree where even single soldiers have to expect to be punished for participating in single murders. With the German side the rule is that no amount of time passed deletes the guilt - with the Allies even the killing of a seven digit number of civilians after the war is consistently overlooked.






One remark post scriptum:

Despite the impression given in the article above, Patton made many positive remarks over the Germans and critisiced the treatment of Germany strongly (perhaps too strongly...) in 1945. I therefore don't know wether it is fair to categorize him as a notorious "Krauthater". Not many good things can be said about those people of the American government whose name are connected with the so called Morgenthau plan. While it was never realized, it is somewhat astounding that plans of that content were made in the first place and that there were very few consequences for its authors.

[IronFinn]

Not that what MacDonogh writes here are new revelations. The shocking thing is only that so many people do not know this. Most Americans actually believe that after WWII everything was nice and happy and that the Germans were treated well. Since the German Federal Republic has supported this myth from inception, even many Germans have no idea: one just opened a new page after WWII, many of those people who were killed because of largely ethnic reasons in the years which followed WWII were simply written off as casualties of the war. Admittedly, there was still some protest about this, but what there was ended in the seventies and eighties, when people took over who were influenced by the leftist spirit of the late sixties. One of their main paradigm was to cleanse society from every leftover of the Nazi era and to do so, every ounce of guilt had to be admitted. And since any protesting of cruelties influcted upon the Germans smacked of deflecting guilt this was considered suspicious and not done.
To this very day, there is no monument or no day of remembrance for the many civilians who were killed in 1945 to 1948. Not a single voicing of regret by the victors has taken place - WWII is still depicted as a great hero's story of liberation (a tendency that even has increased in recent times). On the contrary: some people can even state openly that they do no regret this, do not consider it a crime and that it was completely fair to do so. At the same time, one has progressed to persecute warcrimes perpetrated by Germans in WWII to a degree where even single soldiers have to expect to be punished for participating in single murders. With the German side the rule is that no amount of time passed deletes the guilt - with the Allies even the killing of a seven digit number of civilians after the war is consistently overlooked.

One remark post scriptum:

Despite the impression given in the article above, Patton made many positive remarks over the Germans and critisiced the treatment of Germany strongly (perhaps too strongly...) in 1945. I therefore don't know wether it is fair to categorize him as a notorious "Krauthater". Not many good things can be said about those people of the American government whose name are connected with the so called Morgenthau plan. While it was never realized, it is somewhat astounding that plans of that content were made in the first place and that there were very few consequences for its authors.

Once again Kitsune shows his excellent ability to bite into the core of the issue. I find your posts great read, keep it up.

[Aude sapere]

Once again Kitsune shows his excellent ability to bite into the core of the issue. I find your posts great read, keep it up.

Agreed, great post from Kitsune. Some horrible things happened to the Germans during and after world war two, and it saddens me to see how so many have no idea about it. Some (like our British friends in this thread) seems even to be in gross denial since they are so convinced that they are the 'good guys'.

[foxtrot023]

Agreed, great post from Kitsune. Some horrible things happened to the Germans during and after world war two, and it saddens me to see how so many have no idea about it. Some (like our British friends in this thread) seems even to be in gross denial since they are so convinced that they are the 'good guys'.

Bad things happened, but hardly were they done in a condoned or even planned way, unlike what the nazis did, called ¨final solution¨. And believe it or not, neither did the russians planned the extermination of german POWs.

There is a glaring number missing in all maths of germans POWs. 1,000,000 dead germans are missing. Sure some died in allied camps, someone even tried to pin it to Eisenhower, with no proofs coming out of that, but I think the number is at the soviets door step (mind you there are no numbers to back it up) as Soviet numbers are very clear, once they reached the gulags, however on their way there is another story, taking in consideration the long marches, poor food, wounds, weather, etc (all fit in according to testimonies of german POWs that returned), meaning the number of germans captured were not the same number of germans that actually lived to reach the goulags.

[oregongrunt]

Bad things happened, but hardly were they done in a condoned or even planned way, unlike what the nazis did, called ¨final solution¨. And believe it or not, neither did the russians planned the extermination of german POWs.

There is a glaring number missing in all maths of germans POWs. 1,000,000 dead germans are missing. Sure some died in allied camps, someone even tried to pin it to Eisenhower, with no proofs coming out of that, but I think the number is at the soviets door step (mind you there are no numbers to back it up) as Soviet numbers are very clear, once they reached the gulags, however on their way there is another story, taking in consideration the long marches, poor food, wounds, weather, etc (all fit in according to testimonies of german POWs that returned), meaning the number of germans captured were not the same number of germans that actually lived to reach the goulags.
Good comments. It's really sad to find that so many people have to die even after a war has ended. What's worse is all of the people out there claiming that the civilians populance "deserved" the reprisals, whatever country or land that they called home at the time.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Agreed, great post from Kitsune. Some horrible things happened to the Germans during and after world war two, and it saddens me to see how so many have no idea about it. Some (like our British friends in this thread) seems even to be in gross denial since they are so convinced that they are the 'good guys'.

Really?
What exactly are we in denial about?
I assume you feel that the Nazis were 'the good guys'?:roll:

[Abbadon the Despoiler]

yes its sad that many civilians died after war but I fuly support Czech decision of departure of germans. Shame we couldnt select only nazis and leave innocent.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Not that what MacDonogh writes here are new revelations. The shocking thing is only that so many people do not know this. Most Americans actually believe that after WWII everything was nice and happy and that the Germans were treated well.

To this very day, there is no monument or no day of remembrance for the many civilians who were killed in 1945 to 1948.

With the German side the rule is that no amount of time passed deletes the guilt - with the Allies even the killing of a seven digit number of civilians after the war is consistently overlooked.
.

The Allies (specifically US and UK) killed over a million German civilians after the war? Or millions died as a result of starvation, poor hygiene etc. due to lack of infrastructure, medical facilities, proper nutrition etc.? Kindly elaborate.

As for what the Czechs and Poles did to the Sudeten and Silesian Germans, I hardly condone their crime, but considering what the Germans did to them, it's hardly surprising.

[Redmen]

And what is so suprising about that after the WW2 victory the Allies first took care for their own people and then for the Germans, who have dont forget only them selfs to blame for what happened to them.

[K3rmit]

When they lost the war it was hardly suprising that people started to give them a damn good shoeing for what had happend. Revenge is a form of mans natural justice. You do bad things, and lose, bad things get paid back on you ten fold. I just think that after 5 years of total global war they were rather restrained actually.

[Aude sapere]

Really?
What exactly are we in denial about?

That millions of Germans that should have died from natural causes, died after world war two from other causes? Great example of a Brit that gets grumpy as soon as someone (Thor in this case, without me seeing anything wrong with what he wrote) suggests that you were not really the good guys you think you were, can be seen here;

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2461354&postcount=22


I assume you feel that the Nazis were 'the good guys'?:roll:

Not relevant. See the moderator message in post #17. I believe we are discussing what happened after the war.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

That millions of Germans that should have died from natural causes, died after world war two from other causes?

We're not in denial about it. It's just not something we in the UK care about particularly. After six years of brutal combat against the Nazi war machine and a massive death toll why should the British as a nation be expected to care about what happened to their enemies, especially as the events you are getting all excited about were taking place in regions beyond the control of the Western allies anyway? People in Britain had their own problems to deal with post WW2 (economic chaos, terrible cold winters, food shortages - rationing continued until 1954) I can't imagine what was happening in Eastern Europe to their enemies was of much importance.

From my own personal POV I'm well aware of what went on. My wife's German relatives are East Prussians who now live in South West Germany.


Not relevant. See the moderator message in post #17. I believe we are discussing what happened after the war.

Duh if the issue of who was 'the good guys' isn't relevant then why did YOU raise it in the first place?:roll:

[K3rmit]

I'm with a very ex stab on this one.

We as a nation suffered horrific damage whilst under almost constant aerial and rocket bombardment - So do you really think that we would give a damn about the Germans ? not on your nelly mate. They were the enemy, and got what was coming to them.

[DeltaWhisky58]

For goodness' sake guys. WW2 ended 62 years ago. These are our European neighbours and allies now.

This has gone as far as I'm prepared to let it go.