REQ: Family Medal Identification

[Oxley]

I have recently inherited some WW1 and WW2 Medals, which I would love to get Identified by some of you lads, if you can help me out.

My Great Uncle and his brother both went. One was killed (H. Davidson) in Ypres (he is buried in at least 7 different graves, which is quite horrific), so his medals were sent over with what appears to be a Death Coin (?) and a letter from the King.

I have 3 sets of these two medals (since the two brothers went, also the bloke who I am going to go further in to underneath) so I am assuming they are only campaign medals. The one on the right has "The Great War For Civilisation 1914-1919" on the back, while the one on the left only has the years of WW1.

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/6765/dsc00170bm2.th.jpg (http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00170bm2.jpg)

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/708/dsc00171ep5.th.jpg (http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00171ep5.jpg)

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/2275/dsc00174zx7.th.jpg (http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00174zx7.jpg)




Now for the confusing part. My Grandmothers (Mothers side of Family) 2nd Cousin served in what seems to be the "90th Winnipeg Rifles" in WW1 and was given the following 3 Medals, the same two commonwealth campaign medals from above and an odd one, pictured below.

It has "1914 - 1915" written across the front and

"PTE J. *********
8/CAN INF"


On the back.

To describe the medals front, I would say it has the Crown above, on a wreath with 2 crossed swords and "Gv" or "Cv" at the bottom of the wreath. He survived the war and moved to Cuba where he married a Salsa dancer and opened a Bank, later coming back to Scotland where he died.

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/8792/image008ej7.th.jpg (http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=image008ej7.jpg)
Beside the unknown medal are the 3 small ones that were mounted for wear at balls and the like.

Also these two Medals were my Grandfathers (Mothers side) he served as a RAF Flight Mechanic, based in Scotland during WW2 and received these two medals:

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/9375/image007fp1.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=image007fp1.jpg)

On the left is "The Defence Medal" for 1939 - 1945, on the right is Unknown, dated 1939 - 1945.
The unknown object below is one of two near identical pieces something from the 90th Winnipeg Rifles, with "HOSTI ACIE NOMINANTI" written on it. The other with "90th Winnipeg Rifles". The little fella on the two appears to be the Devil, since he has horns and a little pitchfork, also a tail with a spike on the end and very furry legs.

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/576/image011cq0.th.jpg (http://img366.imageshack.us/my.php?image=image011cq0.jpg)

So if you have any information or know anything about any of this, please do post it. The more I learn about it all the better.
Appreciated.

[Oxley]

Oh man, haha.. just found a whole website page dedicated to WW1 Medals.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/medals.asp#campaignmedals

But yeah, that clears some of the medals up. Sorry guys, I should of gone googling before hand.

[Auzzzie]

Yes, yes you should have googled first. And you made me write all this out before you posted that. At least now we can see if I was right.p-)

I've got most of those medals myself.

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/2275/dsc00174zx7.th.jpg

These two are the British War Medal and the Victory medal, given to everybody who served there.

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/8792/image008ej7.th.jpg

The one at the bottom is the 1914/15 star, meaning the owner served in those years.

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/9375/image007fp1.th.jpg

The one on the right I think is the WW2 version of the British War Medal - can't remember what it is called, for serving in the war. Dunno about the one on the left, it could be a medal for serving in a certain theater of war, but the set I have doesn't include that one.

[Oxley]

Have you gotten them mounted mate, for ANZAC Day? I want to get some of these done up, but not sure how to go about it.

[Auzzzie]

Yeah, I ordered some ribbons over ebay for them, because they were either missing or in bad condition (curse time to hell). Then I got them swing mounted by some bloke who was advertising in my grandfather's RSL magazine thingo, after I cleaned and polished them. I don't wear them on ANZAC Day though.

[Oxley]

Well I just found H. Davidsons war records online, so I am quite stoked.

10th Bn. Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, he was 27 when he was killed on 12/10/1917
Grave/Memorial Reference:Panel 141 to 143 and 162. (Not sure what this means)

[Auzzzie]

Grave/Memorial Reference:Panel 141 to 143 and 162. (Not sure what this means)

I dare say that would be where to find his grave.

[Oxley]

I dare say that would be where to find his grave.

Yeah, I was told he's in about 3 or so graves, so this must be what they were talking about.

[Auzzzie]

Was that an English site you got the records from?

Because my attempts at finding WW2 UK records failed long ago.

[Oxley]

Yeah mate, I so far have 1 WW1 and 1 WW2 Death Cert from this site:

http://www.cwgc.org/debt_of_honour.asp?menuid=14

Seems to do all Commonwealth Deaths.

[Auzzzie]

Well that is no use, mine is still alive. p-)

[Oxley]

Well I guess this topic is less of a REQ, as more of a "Check this stuff out" thread.

Just found some information on the little Devil bloke, it's a cap badge
http://www.arcticmedals.com/catalog/item/3730557/4148321.htm

[Oxley]

"PTE J. *********
8/CAN INF"


On the back of the 1914/1915 Medal could mean 8th Battalion? Because doing a little bit of reading on the 90th Winnipeg Rifles shows that:


"At the outbreak of World War 1, I was working for the Grand Trunk Pacific at Portage la Prairie. Four days later, which I think was August 14th 1914 I enlisted with the local militia unit there, namely the 99th Manitoba Rangers. Other units throughout the district were raised under their various militia names from Brandon, Winnipeg, Fort Francis, Port Arthur and Fort William, which on reaching their quota were entrained together, and on reaching Val Cartier, Quebec, were amalgamated to form the 8th Battalion, 90th Winnipeg Rifles. The make up of the unit, was composed mostly of men of Old Country extraction, many of whom like the P.P.C.L.I.'s , had seen service with the British Army in India and South Africa, and some with the Royal Navy."
http://www.hcpconsulting.ca/granddad/hist002.htm

Old Country Extraction? This means the UK I assume.

[DeltaWhisky58]

I dare say that would be where to find his grave.

This normally implies no known grave. The panel reference usually refer to large war memorials such as the Menin Gate, or the Theipvalle Memorial or similar.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Well I just found H. Davidsons war records online, so I am quite stoked.

10th Bn. Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, he was 27 when he was killed on 12/10/1917
Grave/Memorial Reference:Panel 141 to 143 and 162. (Not sure what this means)

http://www.cwgc.org/images/sniper_tlc.jpg
http://www.cwgc.org/images/cwgc_hdr_trc.gif
Casualty Details

Name DAVIDSON, HENRY Initials:H
Nationality:United Kingdom
Rank:Private
Regiment/Service:Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders
Unit Text:10th Bn.Age:27Date of Death:12/10/1917Service No:S/14253
Additional information:Son of Mrs. A. Davidson, of Nether Kinmundy, Longside, Aberdeenshire, and the late William Davidson.Casualty Type:Commonwealth War DeadGrave/Memorial Reference:Panel 141 to 143 and 162.Memorial:TYNE COT MEMORIAL (http://www.cwgc.org/search/cemetery_details.aspx?cemetery=85900&mode=1)


Cemetery:TYNE COT MEMORIAL
Country:Belgium
Locality:unspecified

Visiting Information:Note: October 2006 - Maintenance work is underway within Tyne Cot Cemetery and may take some time to complete. There are two separate registers for this site - one for the cemetery and one for the memorial. The cemetery register will be found in the gatehouse as you enter the cemetery, and the memorial register will be found in the left hand rotunda of the memorial as you face the memorial. Panel Numbers quoted at the end of each entry relate to the panels dedicated to the Regiment with which the casualty served. In some instances, where a casualty is recorded as attached to another Regiment, his name may appear within their Regimental Panels. Please refer to the on-site Memorial Register Introduction. The Addenda Panel lists those service personnel whose details are awaiting addition to the Regimental Panels. Wheelchair access to this cemetery is possible via an entrance at the rear. For further information regarding wheelchair access, please contact our Enquiries Section on 01628 507200.

Location Information:The Tyne Cot Memorial to the Missing forms the north-eastern boundary of Tyne Cot Cemetery, which is located 9 kilometres north east of Ieper town centre, on the Tynecotstraat, a road leading from the Zonnebeekseweg (N332). The names of those from United Kingdom units are inscribed on Panels arranged by Regiment under their respective Ranks. The names of those from New Zealand units are inscribed on panels within the New Zealand Memorial Apse located at the centre of the Memorial.

Historical Information:The Tyne Cot Memorial is one of four memorials to the missing in Belgian Flanders which cover the area known as the Ypres Salient. Broadly speaking, the Salient stretched from Langemarck in the north to the northern edge in Ploegsteert Wood in the south, but it varied in area and shape throughout the war. The Salient was formed during the First Battle of Ypres in October and November 1914, when a small British Expeditionary Force succeeded in securing the town before the onset of winter, pushing the German forces back to the Passchendaele Ridge. The Second Battle of Ypres began in April 1915 when the Germans released poison gas into the Allied lines north of Ypres. This was the first time gas had been used by either side and the violence of the attack forced an Allied withdrawal and a shortening of the line of defence. There was little more significant activity on this front until 1917, when in the Third Battle of Ypres an offensive was mounted by Commonwealth forces to divert German attention from a weakened French front further south. The initial attempt in June to dislodge the Germans from the Messines Ridge was a complete success, but the main assault north-eastward, which began at the end of July, quickly became a dogged struggle against determined opposition and the rapidly deteriorating weather. The campaign finally came to a close in November with the capture of Passchendaele. The German offensive of March 1918 met with some initial success, but was eventually checked and repulsed in a combined effort by the Allies in September. The battles of the Ypres Salient claimed many lives on both sides and it quickly became clear that the commemoration of members of the Commonwealth forces with no known grave would have to be divided between several different sites. The site of the Menin Gate was chosen because of the hundreds of thousands of men who passed through it on their way to the battlefields. It commemorates those of all Commonwealth nations except New Zealand who died in the Salient, in the case of United Kingdom casualties before 16 August 1917. Those United Kingdom and New Zealand servicemen who died after that date are named on the memorial at Tyne Cot, a site which marks the furthest point reached by Commonwealth forces in Belgium until nearly the end of the war. Other New Zealand casualties are commemorated on memorials at Buttes New British Cemetery and Messines Ridge British Cemetery. The TYNE COT MEMORIAL now bears the names of almost 35,000 officers and men whose graves are not known. The memorial, designed by Sir Herbert Baker with sculpture by Joseph Armitage and F V Blundstone, was unveiled by Sir Gilbert Dyett in July 1927. The memorial forms the north-eastern boundary of TYNE COT CEMETERY, which was established around a captured German blockhouse or pill-box used as an advanced dressing station. The original battlefield cemetery of 343 graves was greatly enlarged after the Armistice when remains were brought in from the battlefields of Passchendaele and Langemarck, and from a few small burial grounds. It is now the largest Commonwealth war cemetery in the world in terms of burials. At the suggestion of King George V, who visited the cemetery in 1922, the Cross of Sacrifice was placed on the original large pill-box. There are three other pill-boxes in the cemetery. There are now 11,952 Commonwealth servicemen of the First World War buried or commemorated in Tyne Cot Cemetery. 8,365 of the burials are unidentified but there are special memorials to more than 80 casualties known or believed to be buried among them. Other special memorials commemorate 20 casualties whose graves were destroyed by shell fire. The cemetery was designed by Sir Herbert Baker.No. of Identified Casualties:34874

[Oxley]

Nice find DW, cheers for that mate. Seems like it was quite the s***fight regarding to burial of the dead.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Tyne Cott is one of the largest of the Allied cemetaries - but my guess is he had no known grave, or is one of the hundreds of thousands whose grave is marked:

"A British Soldier of the Great War, known only to God"

[Oxley]

I am just amazed at the information you can find for yourself on the Internet. Now I need to go find some places to look up information regarding service members who survived the wars.

[Spare MolliG]

I am just amazed at the information you can find for yourself on the Internet. Now I need to go find some places to look up information regarding service members who survived the wars.
Check out the National Archives again - I highly recommend it. You will have to pay to have delivered (a .PDF) specific documents, but it is very much worth it. Of course it is UK based!

[Oxley]

Check out the National Archives again - I highly recommend it. You will have to pay to have delivered (a .PDF) specific documents, but it is very much worth it. But, of course it is UK based.

I had a look at that site, and noticed it cost 3.50 for a image. I couldn't even get to the search, wandered around for quite some time around the site and came up with zip, other than a link to the War Graves Commission.

[Auzzzie]

Damn, the UK sure does make it hard.

"Requests from Interested parties
Enquirers must provide a letter of consent, signed by the person to whom the records relate."

For us, we just type in the name, locate them and access the records instantly if it is WW1, for WW2 you have to wait for them to digitize it and then you get it.

[Oxley]

Just did some more research and PTE. H. Davidson (My Great Uncle) was killed on the first day of the battle of Passchendaele (Third Battle of Ypres), one of 13,000 Allied casualties of the day.

Ah, the wonders of the Internet.

[Robbee]

Just did some more research and PTE. H. Davidson (My Great Uncle) was killed on the first day of the battle of Passchendaele (Third Battle of Ypres), one of 13,000 Allied casualties of the day.

Ah, the wonders of the Internet.

Make sure you're writing all of this down PT. You're going to have to pass it all onto your own kids.
All this info in how many hours?

[Oxley]

Make sure you're writing all of this down PT. You're going to have to pass it all onto your own kids.

Don't worry about that mate, I am printing stuff off now. Will have to transfer it to another medium down the track for historic and keepsafe purposes. Paper seems not to last.

[Auzzzie]

You would be surprised how much info you find when you actually take the time to talk to the grandparents. You know, just the normal chat, it comes up in conversation that I'm reading about Tobruk, and whaddaya know, I have a Rat of Tobruk in the family. A Pommy tank crewman. So that makes two Pommy tank crewmen, the other one (my grandfather) has an interesting story about how he ended up being taken POW a week or two after D Day. One of these days I'm gonna sit them down and forcefully drain every piece of info out while they are still here.p-)

[Oxley]

Ah yes, you should mate. I don't have any Grandparents left, never saw one (she was in Scotland) and didn't see the other Grandmother much before she died. Both Grandfathers passed before I was born.

So before my Mum left tonight I got as much information out of her as possible.

[big_les]

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/9375/image007fp1.th.jpg

The one on the right I think is the WW2 version of the British War Medal - can't remember what it is called, for serving in the war. Dunno about the one on the left, it could be a medal for serving in a certain theater of war, but the set I have doesn't include that one.

Yep, the one on the right is just called the "War Medal". The left one is the Defence Medal. See - http://www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/wwii_medals.htm for info on both including qualification requirements.

[ex1cdo]

One of these days I'm gonna sit them down and forcefully drain every piece of info out while they are still here.p-)

I'd advise (from personal experience) that you should do it sooner rather than later. Old folks have this inconsiderate tendency to expire unexpectedly :-(.

I was acquainted with an old codger for some period, then around Armistice Day one year I noticed a small lapel-pin size set of jump wings on his blazer. I asked him about it, and he'd served in 1 Can. Para. in WWII. So I arranged to have a talk with him about it but, before we met, he died peacefully in his sleep.

[breki]

Here is the homepage of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles, previously 8 Bn, 90th Winnipeg Rifles known best as the "Little Black Devils."

Battle honours include Vimy and Normandy, among others.

http://www.mts.net/~rwpgrif/

[Oxley]

Here is the homepage of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles, previously 8 Bn, 90th Winnipeg Rifles known best as the "Little Black Devils."

Battle honours include Vimy and Normandy, among others.

http://www.mts.net/~rwpgrif/

Cheers for the link mate, that will come in handy.

[capixaba]

Well I just found H. Davidsons war records online, so I am quite stoked.

10th Bn. Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, he was 27 when he was killed on 12/10/1917
Grave/Memorial Reference:Panel 141 to 143 and 162. (Not sure what this means)

PT The large "medal" you have have for H. Davidson is not actually a medal per say but a death plaque, also known blackly as a "Death Penny" (as it looked a bit like the old British penny of the time). This was sent with the scroll to the relatives of KIA - a lot of people framed these together. His war service medals would be sent out to NOK at the end of the war.
I was just mentioning on another thread, for anyone interested in WW1 research, go to http://www.1914-1918.net/ There on the research page you will find everything you need to point you in the right direction to trace a soldier. There are links there to various national archives. Seeing as you got your man's unit and date of death, it is possible to research that unit's war diary and find out what action they were involved in on that given day! Also go onto the forum there - there are lots of very helpful people there with vast amounts of detailed knowlege on units, medals etc.
A lot of Canadians (especially Scottish origin) went back to UK and signed up to Scottish regiments. For those who signed up in Canada, the Canadian archives are actually better than the UK (as they didn't get bombed by the Germans in WW2!) All the stuff on line is free, and you can download the man's Attestation Paper which gives a lot of good information - where when he enlisted, marital status, NOK etc.

[capixaba]

Was that an English site you got the records from?

Because my attempts at finding WW2 UK records failed long ago.

Auzzzie.
The WW2 service records are not released to public yet - that's why it's more difficult to research someone in WW2, even though it was more recent! There is set number of years before these records can be made public - not sure how many more it will be - there is a lot of calls to bring this forward, as the interest in research has really taken off - especially on the net as it allows folks all over the world to do research - before that (and for some records not yet online) you need to either hike the public records office at Kew, or pay a researcher to do that - though this is not as expensive as it might seem, and they know where to look!

[FiveOneFive]

Yeah, I ordered some ribbons over ebay for them, because they were either missing or in bad condition (curse time to hell). Then I got them swing mounted by some bloke who was advertising in my grandfather's RSL magazine thingo, after I cleaned and polished them. I don't wear them on ANZAC Day though.

Could you please link me to the seller?

[Auzzzie]

Auzzzie.
The WW2 service records are not released to public yet - that's why it's more difficult to research someone in WW2, even though it was more recent! There is set number of years before these records can be made public - not sure how many more it will be - there is a lot of calls to bring this forward, as the interest in research has really taken off - especially on the net as it allows folks all over the world to do research - before that (and for some records not yet online) you need to either hike the public records office at Kew, or pay a researcher to do that - though this is not as expensive as it might seem, and they know where to look!
Aha, well that would explain it. Cheers for the info.
Could you please link me to the seller?
Well it has been a couple of years since I bought them, but I'm pretty sure it was this one: http://search.ebay.com.au/_W0QQsassZprolaser2QQhtZ-1

The person is in the UK, but it is OK because a couple of ribbons cost bugger all postage.

[Oxley]

PT The large "medal" you have have for H. Davidson is not actually a medal per say but a death plaque, also known blackly as a "Death Penny" (as it looked a bit like the old British penny of the time). This was sent with the scroll to the relatives of KIA - a lot of people framed these together. His war service medals would be sent out to NOK at the end of the war.
I was just mentioning on another thread, for anyone interested in WW1 research, go to http://www.1914-1918.net/ There on the research page you will find everything you need to point you in the right direction to trace a soldier. There are links there to various national archives. Seeing as you got your man's unit and date of death, it is possible to research that unit's war diary and find out what action they were involved in on that given day! Also go onto the forum there - there are lots of very helpful people there with vast amounts of detailed knowlege on units, medals etc.
A lot of Canadians (especially Scottish origin) went back to UK and signed up to Scottish regiments. For those who signed up in Canada, the Canadian archives are actually better than the UK (as they didn't get bombed by the Germans in WW2!) All the stuff on line is free, and you can download the man's Attestation Paper which gives a lot of good information - where when he enlisted, marital status, NOK etc.

Thanks for that mate. I did some research and found that he fell on the first day of the 3rd battle of Ypres (Paschendale). Plus found out some more information on the Regiment he was with and what they had gotten up to during the war. Appreciated.

[EvanL]

Woah crap. I found some relatives.

one here
http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=784229

[Royal]

Auzzzie.
The WW2 service records are not released to public yet - that's why it's more difficult to research someone in WW2, even though it was more recent! There is set number of years before these records can be made public - not sure how many more it will be - there is a lot of calls to bring this forward, as the interest in research has really taken off - especially on the net as it allows folks all over the world to do research - before that (and for some records not yet online) you need to either hike the public records office at Kew, or pay a researcher to do that - though this is not as expensive as it might seem, and they know where to look!

Not true as far as RN/RM records which are held at the Fleet Air Arm Museum, not at Kew (why I don't know). Those are available and there is a digitisation programme. Sadly many have perished and more were destroyed in a fire (WWII bombing raid IIRC), but if they still exist, they're at Yeovilton.