Immigration protests planned nationwide

[annihilation]

LOS ANGELES - Demonstrators demanding a path to citizenship for an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants hope that nationwide marches will spur Congress to act before the looming presidential primaries take over the political landscape.
de boycott during last year's May 1 activities.
Though this year's turnout will likely be lower, organizers say immigrants feel a sense of urgency to keep immigration reform from getting pushed to the back burner by the 2008 presidential elections.
"If we don't act, then both the Democratic and Republican parties can go back to their comfort zones and do nothing," said Angelica Salas, director of the Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights of Los Angeles. "They won't have the courage to resolve a major situation for millions of people."
In Miami, Democratic Party Chair Howard Dean (http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=Howard+Dean) was scheduled to speak to a coalition of immigrant groups, while Ricardo Chavez, the brother of famed agricultural labor leader Cesar Chavez, was expected address crowds in Milwaukee.
In Washington, D.C., about 400 members of Asian groups from across the country were set to make a lobbying push with lawmakers. Students planned to march in Chicago.
In New York, groups are planning an "American Family Tree" rally, where immigrants will pin paper leaves on a large painting of a tree to symbolize the separation of families because of strict immigration laws.
The event is a response to a White House immigration reform proposal in March, said Chung-Wha Hong, executive director of the New York Immigration Coalition.
The plan would grant illegal immigrants three-year work visas for $3,500 but also require them to return home to apply for U.S. residency and pay a $10,000 fine. It has been roundly criticized by immigrant groups.
Two large demonstrations were planned in Los Angeles County — home to an estimated 1 million illegal immigrants. Some groups in the area have called for an economic boycott and hoped for a repeat of last year, when thousands of immigrants and students stayed away from work and school in a sign of solidarity.
Other groups have rejected the boycott, arguing it puts immigrants' livelihoods at risk and deprives children of valuable classroom time.
Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa and Cardinal Roger Mahony, head of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Los Angeles, both strong immigrant supporters, urged students to stay in school.
Despite divisions over tactics and other issues, immigration groups and supporters said the diverse events will show the movement is stronger than ever.
"Just because the 12 million people who don't have legal residency don't attend a march doesn't mean they don't want it," said Eduardo "Piolin" Sotelo, a popular Spanish-language disc jockey. "I tell my listeners that no matter what they do, just don't stop doing something."
After last year's protests, reform legislation stalled in Congress and bipartisan proposals for illegal immigrants to gain citizenship have gotten more conservative.
Organizers said Tuesday's turnout will be lower because stepped-up raids in recent months have left many immigrants afraid to speak out in public — a major change over rallies in 2006 when some illegal immigrants wore T-shirts saying "I'm illegal. So what?"
"These raids have torn apart families," said John Crockford, a member of the Central California Coalition for Immigrant Rights.
In Fresno, organizers planned a rally focusing on children whose parents had been deported. The San Joaquin Valley is home to thousands of seasonal workers who work illegally each year in the fields and construction industry.
In Los Angeles, marches were set to include demands for a legalization program, a stop to the raids and an anti- Iraq (http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=Iraq) war message. City and transportation officials were planning for as many as 500,000 people in downtown, believing it could be the largest in the city so far this year.
___
Associated Press writers Garance Burke in Fresno and Laura Wides-Munoz in Miami contributed to this story.




http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070501/ap_on_re_us/immigration_protests






-----------------------------------------------



Some people have some balls. Im all for some reforms to prevent more illegal immigrants and to allow more legal immigrants into this country but that shouldn't be demanded like its a god given right. Each nation has a right to judge and evaluate its own immigration policy.

[alexucci99]

The plan would grant illegal immigrants three-year work visas for $3,500 but also require them to return home to apply for U.S. residency and pay a $10,000 fine. It has been roundly criticized by immigrant groups.

I don't really see how that's going to help them get into the country.

Anyways, check out this Sowell article published some time ago if you haven't already read it:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/04/immigration_solutions.html

He raises some interesting points...

[jasonblaster]

Some people have some balls. Im all for some reforms to prevent more illegal immigrants and to allow more legal immigrants into this country but that shouldn't be demanded like its a god given right. Each nation has a right to judge and evaluate its own immigration policy.

I agree, if these people put half the manpower and effort into cleaning up their own country, and making it work the way they want America to work, then we wouldn't be in this predicament. Mexico should be a thriving economic and social force, due to it's resources, people, location, and trade agreements, but for some reason, the people who want improvement decide to focus on individual improvement by running north, instead of trying to make life better in the homeland. My dad always used to say "clean up your own backyard first" hmmm, it kind of applies. Don't come up here and bitch about our immigration policies, when it's the failed policies of a corrupt government that drove you out of your homeland.

[SBL]

Ugh, these stories threaten to give me ulcers.

[Ordie]

I agree, if these people put half the manpower and effort into cleaning up their own country, and making it work the way they want America to work, then we wouldn't be in this predicament. Mexico should be a thriving economic and social force, due to it's resources, people, location, and trade agreements, but for some reason, the people who want improvement decide to focus on individual improvement by running north, instead of trying to make life better in the homeland. My dad always used to say "clean up your own backyard first" hmmm, it kind of applies. Don't come up here and bitch about our immigration policies, when it's the failed policies of a corrupt government that drove you out of your homeland.

President Calderon recognizes this very issue. The problem stems from the lack of anti-trust laws that allows for monopolies to happen in Mexico. Thus a baker in Mexico wants to grow his business, but there is only one supplier of flour (Grupo Gruma in partnership with ADM) and sets the price. As a baker one cannot compete aganist "Pan Bimbo" (Wonder Bread of Mexico) who also uses the same source of flour at a better economy of scale price.

Mexican immigrants thrive in a free and fair market with transparency and access to investment capital. If you go to LA, many of the Mexican grocery goods are produced and made in the USA by companies started by immigrants. The entrepeneural "drive" exist, the ground rules and economic policy must change in Mexico for it to happen.

[Laworkerbee]

President Calderon recognizes this very issue. The problem stems from the lack of anti-trust laws that allows for monopolies to happen in Mexico. Thus a baker in Mexico wants to grow his business, but there is only one supplier of flour (Grupo Gruma in partnership with ADM) and sets the price. As a baker one cannot compete aganist "Pan Bimbo" (Wonder Bread of Mexico) who also uses the same source of flour at a better economy of scale price.

Mexican immigrants thrive in a free and fair market with transparency and access to investment capital. If you go to LA, many of the Mexican grocery goods are produced and made in the USA by companies started by immigrants. The entrepeneural "drive" exist, the ground rules and economic policy must change in Mexico for it to happen.

Good points Ordie

I'm looking forward to traffic being lighter today woot

[seraosha]

Can we please take a moment and "copy + paste" into a text document, then take the result and post it?

Why the hell are you so lazy as to paste a fricking ad with your post?

[2Sheds_Jackson]

"Just because the 12 million people who don't have legal residency don't attend a march doesn't mean they don't want it," said Eduardo "Piolin" Sotelo, a popular Spanish-language disc jockey.


That's correct...and just because the other 288 million Americans don't march in opposition, doesn't mean they endorse your dream of amnesty.

The only thing worse than this disgusting display of lawlessness, is watching our media and politicians fail in their respective duties to the American people.

[Ordie]

disgusting display of lawlessness.

First Amedment– Freedom of religion, speech, press, and peaceable assembly as well as the right to petition the government.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances--US Consititution

[2Sheds_Jackson]

First Amedment– Freedom of religion, speech, press, and peaceable assembly as well as the right to petition the government.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances--US Consititution

Sigh.

Are you saying that the First Amendment of the United States Constitution gives citizens of other nations the right to illegally enter and remain in the US? My problem with the demonstration is that it is being conducted by, and is in support of, those who have broken the law.

Furthermore, the US Constitution is a social contract which outlines the limitations of the federal governments power over those people who have agreed to be bound by it; naturally born American citizens, and naturalized citizens. Illegals are neither - and therefore do not enjoy the same protections. If they would like those protections, they may petition their own government to get them.

[Dasein]

My problem with the demonstration is that it is being conducted by, and is in support of, those who have broken the law.

So? The US has a long tradition of honoring those who have broken the law, from the initial revolutionaries we call our Founding Fathers to the abolitionists who helped escaped slaves to the civil disobedients of the Civil Rights movement.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

So? The US has a long tradition of honoring those who have broken the law, from the initial revolutionaries we call our Founding Fathers to the abolitionists who helped escaped slaves to the civil disobedients of the Civil Rights movement.

We have an equally long tradition of putting them in jail. It remains to be seen which way this one will go. But it would seem that with fences going up, and militias being formed, we have at least started paying attention.

[Pandy]

Damn bro, you need to quit proving their logic wrong.

[Ordie]

Sigh.

Are you saying that the First Amendment of the United States Constitution gives citizens of other nations the right to illegally enter and remain in the US?.

Yes.

"right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"

Define the people?

[SBL]

Yes.

"right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"

Define the people?

Easy. The people of the United States, i.e. citizens.

[IraGlacialis]

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/nws/p/ap_small.gif (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ap/brand/SIG=br2v03;_ylt=AkbK8DJ6xYKSkAL4Uj_N37FH2ocA/*http://www.ap.org)
Immigration rally turnout lower than '06
By PETER PRENGAMAN, Associated Press Writer

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070501/capt.6577efc3df7d4781875a83db5895b7bd.immigration_protests_chicago_cx130.jpg?x=380&y=240&sig=lQbCu0jNA7..5lakI_Uw2w--
A crowd estimated at 150,000 are seen in Chicago's Grant Park after a march through the downtown area to a rally calling on immigration reform Tuesday, May 1, 2007. (AP Photo/Charles Rex Arbogast)

LOS ANGELES - Immigration rallies held across the country Tuesday produced only a fraction of the million-plus protesters who turned out last year, as fear about raids and frustration that the marches haven't pushed Congress to pass reform kept many at home.
In Los Angeles, where several hundred thousand turned out last year, about 25,000 attended the first of two scheduled rallies, said police Capt. Andrew Smith, an incident commander. In Chicago, where more than 400,000 swarmed the streets a year earlier, police officials put initial estimates at about 150,000.
Organizers said those who did march felt a sense of urgency to keep immigration reform from getting pushed to the back burner by the 2008 presidential elections.
"There's no reason a pro-immigration bill can't be passed. That's one of the messages being sent today," said Chicago protester Shaun Harkin, 34, of Northern Ireland, who has lived in the United States as a legal resident for 15 years.
Melissa Woo, a 22-year-old American citizen who immigrated from South Korea (http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=South+Korea), carried a Korean flag over her shoulder as she criticized politicians for "buckling at the knees."
"Us immigrants aren't pieces of trash, we're human beings," she said. "To be treated as less than human is a travesty."
Organizers had long predicted lower turnouts for this year's marches, saying an increase in immigration raids in recent months have left many immigrants afraid to speak out in public. That's a change since rallies in 2006, when some illegal immigrants wore T-shirts saying "I'm illegal. So what?"
Others believe that the marches have not pushed Congress to pass immigration legislation, and many groups are now focusing on citizenship and voter registration drives instead of street demonstrations.
But smaller crowds does not mean the movement to win a path to citizenship for 12 million illegal immigrants has lost momentum, organizers said.
"People are saying we need to get together to demonstrate unity," said Joshua Hoyt, executive director of the Illinois Coalition for Immigrant and Refugee Rights. "But with so much happening, and so many concrete victories, you couldn't say the movement is weakening."
In Los Angeles, home to the largest concentration of illegal immigrants at about 1 million, public school teacher David Cid said he came to support his students, many of whom are suffering because of recent raids that have impacted their families.
"They feel terrorized," he said.
No rallies were planned in Atlanta, where 50,000 marched last year, because many immigrants were afraid of the raids and of a new state law set to take effect in July. The law requires verification that adults seeking non-emergency state-administered benefits are in the country legally, sanctions employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, and requires police to check the immigration status of people they arrest.
"There's a lot of anxiety and fear in the immigrant community," said Jerry Gonzalez of the Georgia Association of Latino Elected Officials.
While fear about raids kept some people at home, anger about the sweeps brought others out. From Phoenix to Detroit to Miami, thousands of people carried American flags in the streets.
About 3,500 people marched in Phoenix and Tucson, waving signs reading "Stop the roundups" and "The sleeping giant woke up forever."
"We are not criminals," said Roberto Organo, an illegal immigrant from Mexico who said he has lived in the U.S. for 15 years. "We are looking for work to support our families. It's OK for government to enforce the law but they have to give us a chance."
A few dozen counter-protesters across the street from the Capitol got in a shouting match with some at the rally.
"I want to send them back," said Phoenix resident George Propheter, who held up a large handwritten sign that read "Hell No." "I've been in the city for 40 years. They've completely destroyed our city."
In Oakland, about 2,000 people marched to City Hall.
"Nothing has happened since last year," said Gloria Ramos, 51, a social worker at a children's nonprofit who left her native Mexico for Oakland 32 years ago. "Things are getting worse for our people — more discrimination, less benefits."
After last year's protests, reform legislation stalled in Congress and bipartisan proposals for illegal immigrants to gain citizenship have gotten more conservative. "If we don't act, then both the Democratic and Republican parties can go back to their comfort zones and do nothing," said Angelica Salas, director of the Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights of Los Angeles. "They won't have the courage to resolve a major situation for millions of people."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070501/ap_on_re_us/immigration_protests;_ylt=Aqb04hExCO1SbhysG.m0Nj2s0NUE

[ronnieraygun]

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/8386/daylaborerfingercontemphy1.jpg

[Dasein]

Easy. The people of the United States, i.e. citizens.

Not according to the 14th Ammendment, which guarantees equal protection for all people, yet specificies other rights as reserved only for citizens.

[Ordie]

Easy. The people of the United States, i.e. citizens.


The US Constitution is the supreme law if the United States.
The 14th amendment guarantees equal protection under the law.

[SBL]

The US Constitution is the supreme law if the United States.
The 14th amendment guarantees equal protection under the law.

Equal protection under the law, yes. The right to enter and remain illegally, no.

[Midav]

I will simplify it:

My mother is fixing to make her US citizenship. If these people want to stay here so badly, they can do the same. We are not rich. Hell, I am supporting my parents. But, we are happy to be here.

I'm sorry, but if things are honestly so bad in the illegals' own nations, try to change your nation... not the one nation you are illegally staying in. It's not racist, it's the gods honest truth.

[IraGlacialis]

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/8386/daylaborerfingercontemphy1.jpg
Yes, that will really get people to support you. :roll:
People like that give a bad name to most immigrants in the the same manner as the appeasment-seeking Muslims in Europe give a bad name to most other Muslims.

[Ordie]

Equal protection under the law, yes. The right to enter and remain illegally, no.

The Fugitive Slave Law passed by Congress in 1850 also did not give the right for people right to enter into Free States as well.

Do you think this law was just?

In hindsight we view this as unjust, but the level of debate and passions at the time can be equated to the level of debate over the issue of immigration today.

[sferrin]

Damn bro, you need to quit proving their logic wrong.

I didn't notice any logic in their arguements to disprove ;)

[sferrin]

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/8386/daylaborerfingercontemphy1.jpg

There's a couple guys that need a few paintballs between the eyes. (I'd say bullets but I wouldn't want to offend the bleeding hearts.)

[SBL]

The Fugitive Slave Law passed by Congress in 1850 also did not give the right for people right to enter into Free States as well.

Do you think this law was just?

In hindsight we view this as unjust, but the level of debate and passions at the time can be equated to the level of debate over the issue of immigration today.

Oh, I see where this is going: barring illegal immigrants from coming and going as they please is tantamount to racist oppression. Give me a break.

[loganinkosovo]

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/8386/daylaborerfingercontemphy1.jpg

and tomorrow they will be back out in front of Home Depot......

The ones "La Migre" didn't get.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Yes.

"right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"

Define the people?

Oh man, you're waaay out in left field. Do you seriously expect me to believe that the 1st Amendment gives all the people of the world the right to assemble inside the Untied States and make demands of our government? I've read a lot of idiotic interpretations of the 1st amendment, and I've never seen anything even close to that. For chrissakes, if that was the case, we would have had the Japanese and the Germans marching on the White House in 1943. "Tough luck Amerikanischwine! Ve haff zee right to assemble, be-atches!"


The US Constitution is the supreme law if the United States.
The 14th amendment guarantees equal protection under the law.

And equally obliges all to obey that law. And under that law, these individuals are persona non grata, they may head to the exit. They do not exist in some gray area, not covered by the law. They have broken the law, and are subject to it's punishment.

You're completely ignoring (or unaware of?) the concepts of nationalism, status and standing under the law. I mean, you don't imagine that any human being across the globe, so long as they can beg borrow or steal their way inside our borders, suddenly has all the rights and privileges of a US citizen, do you? We have specifically written law to make that illegal, and to require people who do that to be returned to where they came from. It's not the same as becoming a citizen - not even close. So I fail to see how you could possibly think that the law requires that they be entitled to assemble and march and be deported at the same time. There are many legal scholars who also believe that when those illegals bear children here (currently one of their favorite hobbies) - that the law does not require that they be given citizenship status.

The mind boggles. If this represents the state of understanding of our traditions, policies, and law, it's no wonder the illegals are able to gain traction. It's as if feel-good-ism is a sufficient substitute for logic and reason.

The media is really doing it's part - all the pictures featuring marchers waving Mexican flags have been replaced with pictures of marchers waving US flags (we wouldn't want to upset the readers with the truth) - and CNN has a video link up now, entitled "New US citizenship test reads like "Jeopardy"" - and the story goes on to say that applicants must answer 6 out of 10 questions correct (gasp!) and the questions are unbearably difficult, such as "what country borders the US to the North" and "when are Taxes due" (horrors!). It's a friggin' joke, and yet it's apparently still too much to ask. The sense of entitlement is truly nauseating.

[Indiana Jones]

rofl It appears to be the time for my ostentatious profundity...
Mr. Jackson, however poor (occasionally, at least) your judgment, you are quite an entertaining fellow.

OrdieQuote:
Originally Posted by 2Sheds_Jackson http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2472285#post2472285)
Sigh.

Are you saying that the First Amendment of the United States Constitution gives citizens of other nations the right to illegally enter and remain in the US?.


Yes.

"right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"

Define the people?
Si tacuisses...

[Dasein]

You're completely ignoring (or unaware of?) the concepts of nationalism, status and standing under the law. I mean, you don't imagine that any human being across the globe, so long as they can beg borrow or steal their way inside our borders, suddenly has all the rights and privileges of a US citizen, do you?

They do not have all the rights - they cannot serve on juries, vote, or hold office, but they do have certain rights, like a right to due process. An illegal immigrant charged with a crime under US law - say assault or theft - has the same rights as a natural American citizen. They'd have a right to an attorney, and a right to a trial, and so on.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

They do not have all the rights - they cannot serve on juries, vote, or hold office, but they do have certain rights, like a right to due process. An illegal immigrant charged with a crime under US law - say assault or theft - has the same rights as a natural American citizen. They'd have a right to an attorney, and a right to a trial, and so on.

...ok agreed, but that's not really the issue here.

I said that the demonstrations - largely carried out by illegals, were a "disgusting display of lawlessness" (because those folks should be in jail, or on busses heading out of my country, not marching in my streets making demands of my government). Ordie then countered that no, it was not lawlessness, because "the people" have a right to assemble and demonstrate. But because of their status, as I have tried to show, illegals do not have that right - because their very presence here is the continued commission of a crime.

[Dasein]

How do you know the immigration status of any of those involved in the protests?

[Ordie]

The media is really doing it's part - all the pictures featuring marchers waving Mexican flags have been replaced with pictures of marchers waving US flags.

Might as well report Gov. George Pataki to the 'US nationalist' police for this St. Patricks Day gesture.
http://www.nynewsday.com/media/photo/2005-03/16739793.gif



There are many legal scholars who also believe that when those illegals bear children here (currently one of their favorite hobbies) - that the law does not require that they be given citizenship status.

Having children is a gift from God not a crime. If you belive that children of the undocumented do not have "jus soli" rights, count me in, a US Navy veteran, with a BA and MA giving back what this country has done for my familiy. So has many children of undocumented immigrants today in Iraq and Afghanistan.

How much more do we need to prove our worth?

Give the citizenship test to any native born American, and I'll bet the majority will flunk and many will fail to submit thier taxes on time.

[SBL]

Might as well report Gov. George Pataki to the 'US nationalist' police for this St. Patricks Day gesture.
http://www.nynewsday.com/media/photo/2005-03/16739793.gif



I have it on good authority that Gov. Pataki is a US citizen.

[Playtime]

Would it be wrong to say these people are after economic/job safety? Thats why they want to stay in the US?

Indonesia, Thailand, India, China, Philipines etc have many more millions working abroad (legally), as construction workers, factory hands, domestic helpers etc etc but they typically return home once they have saved up enough to give their families a better life.

Any particular reasons why mexicans dont do the same? Would a system giving work permits (minus citizenship) solve the problems? Economically, earning even a low US salary (by American standards) would buy a relatively much higher standard of living in Mexico no?

[Ordie]

Any particular reasons why mexicans dont do the same? Would a system giving work permits (minus citizenship) solve the problems? Economically, earning even a low US salary (by American standards) would buy a relatively much higher standard of living in Mexico no?

It was not uncommon for undocumented workers from Mexico to return annually, usually Christmas or off season, with a pick-up full of "goodies". And return to the US via the same 'coyote'.

Since the border enforcement, many do not return to Mexico on the premise that it's not worth the effort to re-enter the US. Therefore many stay in the US for years skipping funerals, weddings, and other important events.

What happens next?

Life happens...

Either the immigrant will try to bring his/her family into the US as a better means to provide and raise children.

or

Immigrants will find American girlfriends or boyfriends and get married, which is not uncommon.

Either way, the childern will most likely be acculturated Americans.

The lucky ones are Mexican residents in border cities, commuting back and forth everyday to jobs in the US. There are an estimated 40-50 thousand Tijuana residents working in San Diego. These workers enjoy the benefits of affordable health care, low cost housing, good public education, and access to friends and family in Mexico while earning a US paycheck.

Standard of living for these commuters is considered superior to that of an undocumented immigrant in the US and/or a person living in the interior of Mexico.

Permits may solve the short term labor shortage, but may delay the natural economic progression of salary and benefit increases for jobs in the service sector. The solution in my opinion is amensty. I know many who have benefitted from the Simpson-Mazzoli Act of 1986. Many have thier own businesses and homes that otherwise would have been inaccessible if they remained 'in the shadows'. Many of thier children are serving in the US Armed Forces. One person that I know who arrived undocumented is now a Neurologist researching the affects of Parkinsons.

[Playtime]

"Permits may solve the short term labor shortage, but may delay the natural economic progression of salary and benefit increases for jobs in the service sector."

Assuming you meant an influx of legal Mexican labour would depress American wages, employers could even be made to pay a tax for each work permit holder employed.

While it wont solve the issue of those already in country, this system may greatly reduce the problem of new illegals. The money remitted by permit holders will also stimulate the Mexican economy to reduce the "push" factor.

[Eusebius]

These mass gatherings sound like good occasions for mass arrest, then sort them out, then mass deportations.

Rewarding ILLLEGAL immigration is a punch in the face to every law abiding citizen of the world who dreams of coming to America as a land of opportunity.

Although my family came to Canada, we did not jump on some boat and pay some snakehead to get us here, we patiently and nervously waited the years it took both sides of government to approve our leaving China for the west. To grant general amnesty to those who are best selfish line jumpers, at worst just plain criminals is an insult to all those who follow the legal procedues.

[Dasein]

These mass gatherins sound like good occasions for mass arrest, then sort them out, then mass deportations.

That's a good way to get cities sued into bankruptcy for civil rights violations. Mass arrests for peaceful demonstrations is not going to fly in the US.


Rewarding ILLLEGAL immigration is a punch in the face to every law abiding citizen of the world who dreams of coming to America as a land of opportunity.

So? We need to look at what is practical, not what won't hurt people's feelings. The fact is, there are 12 million undocumented immigrants in the US, and that nmber continues to grow. There is simply no way to deport all of them. Many have families, with children who are citizens, and many have been here for years. Mass deportations would lead to chaos in many areas, as the 'illegal' is really someone's brother or sister or mother or father, not some faceless statistic. How do you propose we segregate the 12,000,000+ people who are here illegally from the 300,000,000 or so here legally, and move those people to some other place? Who pays for it all? How many people would submit to mandatory ID checks in every city, with the presumption being that those without ID are here illegally? What happens to those who are deported by mistake?

What it comes down to is that there is no practical way to deport 12 million people, so we need to think of how best to integrate them into the US system at a legal level.

[SBL]

Before anything else, the border needs to be closed. After that, then you can sort out what to do with them.

I'm in agreement though, when these illegals gather together, making demands of their host country, they're essentially thumbing their noses at everyone who's already here- especially those who took the time and effort to come here legally. It's a slap in the face. I'm not sure what to do about it, but I know it really really bothers me.

[Flyingfoot]

So let me get this straight, you are in the country illegally, and you are going to demand the government give you citizenship. Right, makes perfect sense to me.

Seems to me the best place to get and deport a few illegals is at an illegal immigration protest.

[Eusebius]

So? We need to look at what is practical, not what won't hurt people's feelings. Hurt peoples feelings? This is a case of law abiding citizens versus criminals. Who does America want in as its fresh citizens? Law abiding ones? Or ones who start their life as illegal criminals who without care break American laws.


The fact is, there are 12 million undocumented immigrants in the US, and that nmber continues to grow. There is simply no way to deport all of them. That is simply not true. Just hit up their places of employment, everyone knows where they work. The hardware stores, maids services, etc. Round up as many as can be caught. When job opportunities disappear for these CRIMINALS, they will naturally head back to their home countries.


Many have families, with children who are citizens, and many have been here for years. Is this not just a case of, you know ‘hurt feelings’, how about too bad? They should not have taken advantage of American law by having their children born here to become citizens.


Mass deportations would lead to chaos in many areas, as the 'illegal' is really someone's brother or sister or mother or father, not some faceless statistic. Boy, you were so quick to dismiss my argument of legal immigration as mere feelings. Now you use such an emotional argument in return? You sank your own ship early on, now this just won’t flow. The criminals should be deported.


How do you propose we segregate the 12,000,000+ people who are here illegally from the 300,000,000 or so here legally, and move those people to some other place? Faith in the ingenuity of government, where there is a will, there is a way.


Who pays for it all? The American tax payer, just like they pay for police officers, overseas anti-drug programs, and border patrols, they will pay for the deportation of criminals from their homeland.


How many people would submit to mandatory ID checks in every city, with the presumption being that those without ID are here illegally? Don’t assume mandatory and what you are implying as random ID checks as the method deportations can occur.


What happens to those who are deported by mistake? What if an innocent man is convicted of a crime? It stinks, but it happens, the system has ways to deal with such an situation.


What it comes down to is that there is no practical way to deport 12 million people, so we need to think of how best to integrate them into the US system at a legal level.You haven’t even began the discussions of practical methods to do it and it is already dismissed?



If illegal immigrants want a chance to stay in the country, they should provce their worth to America. The United States is in need of troops right now. The government should ease restrictions on foreign entry into the military, and after 15 years of military service, those illegals who serve the 15 honorably should then be rewarded with a citizenship for their loyal service.

There is no better proof of love for a country than to shed ones own blood in its defence.

If illegal aliens were allowed to do as such, they would earn the respect of the American people as well as earned their citizenship.

But obviously that is just my pipe dream.

[Dasein]

Hurt peoples feelings? This is a case of law abiding citizens versus criminals. Who does America want in as its fresh citizens? Law abiding ones? Or ones who start their life as illegal criminals who without care break American laws.

Breaking one law doesn't mean you'll break all laws. Would you want an escaped slave starting a new life in the north? After all, he's a criminal.


That is simply not true. Just hit up their places of employment, everyone knows where they work. The hardware stores, maids services, etc. Round up as many as can be caught. When job opportunities disappear for these CRIMINALS, they will naturally head back to their home countries.

While raids do happen, one simply cannot round up people. While some undocumented immigrants work in these industries, they work along side many documented immigrants and natural born citizens. Do you round these people up to? On what grounds?


Is this not just a case of, you know ‘hurt feelings’, how about too bad? They should not have taken advantage of American law by having their children born here to become citizens....Boy, you were so quick to dismiss my argument of legal immigration as mere feelings. Now you use such an emotional argument in return? You sank your own ship early on, now this just won’t flow. The criminals should be deported.

It's not an appeal to emotion, but rather a demonstration of the fact that these undocumented immigrants cannot easily be extracted, and doing so will cause substnatial disruption to many peope's lives. This creates greater social pressure on local politicians not to cooperate with federal officials. Trying to round up 12 million people is hard enough with a cooperative population. When the population has a vested interest in keeping their family and friends here, it becomes virtually impossible.


Faith in the ingenuity of government, where there is a will, there is a way.


At what cost? How much of your freedom are you willing to sacrifce to see these people deported?


The American tax payer, just like they pay for police officers, overseas anti-drug programs, and border patrols, they will pay for the deportation of criminals from their homeland.

Can we afford such an endeavor? How many businesses would be disrupted? How many families? What happens to the kids who's parents are deported? What happens if there's no where to deport them?


What if an innocent man is convicted of a crime? It stinks, but it happens, the system has ways to deal with such an situation.

Once deported, you're out of the system, so there's no legal grounds for redress. Someone imprisoned in the US still has access to the US legal system, and can file appeals and so on.

How much investigation would be done to assure that those deported should be deported?

[Laworkerbee]

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2007-05/29479563.jpg

Waving U.S. flags and demanding citizenship for undocumented immigrants, tens of thousands of jubilant protesters marched through the streets of Los Angeles on Tuesday during a mostly peaceful day that ended with clashes between police and demonstrators in MacArthur Park.

Fifteen police officers were among those hurt. About 10 people were taken from MacArthur Park by ambulance to hospitals for treatment, said d'Lisa Davies, a spokeswoman for the Los Angeles Fire Department. She said the injuries mainly were cuts, including head and neck wounds. None of the injuries were believed to be serious. Police reported that one demonstrator was arrested.

In Los Angeles, after police tried to disperse demonstrators who had moved off the sidewalk onto Alvarado Street about 6 p.m., some of the few thousand participants still in the park started throwing plastic bottles and rocks at officers

Then, several dozen riot police, clad in helmets and wielding batons, started clearing the park, firing a few dozen volleys of foam bullets into the crowd.

Late Tuesday, a spokesman for Telemundo confirmed that one reporter and three camera operators from the Spanish-language TV station had been injured and had been taken to a hospital by police.

Another TV station, Fox 11, showed video on its 10 p.m. newscast of a Fox camerawoman apparently being struck by a baton-wielding police officer.

The violence began unfolding when a helicopter flew low over the east side of the park and sirens blasted as police ordered people out of the park, telling them they would be arrested if they didn't leave.

The police formed a riot line across the park on the east side, forcing the crowd to move west. Some participants were yelling at police, "You can't do this."

Another confrontation came about 6:50 p.m., still well before nightfall, when a police car with lights blazing was bombarded by bottles and clothes as it passed. A line of officers fired several volleys of the foam bullets from wide-barreled launchers resembling shotguns. People started running while throwing things, including plastic bottles and palm fronds, at Metro buses. One hit a bus with a piece of wood.

More police cars streamed north on Rampart Boulevard and west on 6th Street. In Lafayette Park, several police jumped out with batons and tackled crowd members, arresting someone in the big pile. They chased reporters away.
http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2007-05/29479097.jpg

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2007-05/29478260.jpg

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2007-05/29479095.jpg

[Dasein]

So the police busted up a peaceful demonstration in a public park and then attacked a bunch of reporters? Sounds like a police riot...interesting stuff. I wonder, though, what these protestors would do if the mass deportations started? Would thoe plastic bottle be replaced with Molotov cocktails?

[Baboonass]

I saw some protesters (local news) with red commie flags and Che Guavarea signs/t-shirts, socialist party, etc..etc..

Ironic that they chose "May Day" for this protest.


Doncha think?

[Laworkerbee]

http://yourscene.latimes.com/PHOTOS/LATM/1UserPhotos/63358E.jpg
Well the cops looked like this before the outbreak. Do you think police in Los Angeles with a Latino mayor and heavy numbers of Latinos in it's own force would just fire without a reason?

There were provoked by members of radical elements and did not respond in a knee jerk fashion and when they were given orders to clear the area they did it in a professional manner. I did not see them firing randomly at all.

[Dasein]

Well the cops looked like this before the outbreak. Do you think police in Los Angeles with a Latino mayor and heavy numbers of Latinos in it's own force would just fire without a reason?

The cops probably had a reason, but that doesn't mean the reason was sufficient to justify their actions.

[annihilation]

Can we please take a moment and "copy + paste" into a text document, then take the result and post it?

Why the hell are you so lazy as to paste a fricking ad with your post?


Dude calm down ok....I've posted before and have had them nice and clean, so sue me if I missed once. Its not that easy doing this **** through a remote desktop with slow as speeds at times.

[Dasein]

I saw some protesters (local news) with red commie flags and Che Guavarea signs/t-shirts, socialist party, etc..etc..

Ironic that they chose "May Day" for this protest.


Doncha think?

Protests are public events, and every group out there will show up to get a bit of media attention. There's no what to stop a group of people from waving their flags and signs and shouting slogans.

[Laworkerbee]

The cops probably had a reason, but that doesn't mean the reason was sufficient to justify their actions.

Justify their actions? you talk about them as if they are cowboys

15 officers injured how many more do they need to sustain to justify their actions to you?

They received orders and followed them what is so hard to understand?

[Dasein]

Justify their actions? you talk about them as if they are cowboys

15 officers injured how many more do they need to sustain to justify their actions to you?

They received orders and followed them what is so hard to understand?

They ordered the (then) peaceful protestors out of a public park and beat up news crews. Are those actions justified?

[Baboonass]

Protests are public events, and every group out there will show up to get a bit of media attention. There's no what to stop a group of people from waving their flags and signs and shouting slogans.

Yeh, I know.

I was just making an observation, it really isn't applicable as it was only part of the fringe.

Being a smart ass.


I wish they'd stop protesting and get back to landscaping my yard.

[annihilation]

They ordered the (then) peaceful protestors out of a public park and beat up news crews. Are those actions justified?

They ordered the crowd to get back on the side walk after spilling onto the street.

From the article.
"In Los Angeles, after police tried to disperse demonstrators who had moved off the sidewalk onto Alvarado Street about 6 p.m., some of the few thousand participants still in the park started throwing plastic bottles and rocks at officers"

[Laworkerbee]

They ordered the (then) peaceful protestors out of a public park and beat up news crews. Are those actions justified?

I don't know where you live but when you receive an order from the LAPD to clear the area and then proceed to throw bottles some Rodney King action is going to happen

thats just an unspoken rule here and I'm ok with that. I was there and didn't feel threatened by the boys in blue at all, the reporters were engaged because they were side by side with the radical elements causing trouble and were subjected to volley fire of baton rounds.

I didn't see any of them being beaten up

[MBTex]

A parallel...
>
>I bought a bird feeder. I hung it on my back porch and filled it with
>seed. Within a week we had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the
>continuous flow of free and easily accessible food. But then the birds
>started building nests in the boards of the patio, above the table, and
>next to the barbecue.
>
>Then came the poop. It was everywhere: on the patio tile, the chairs, the
>table...everywhere. Then some of the birds turned mean: They would dive
>bomb me and try to peck me even though I had fed them out of my own pocket.
> And others birds were boisterous and loud: They sat on the feeder and
>squawked and screamed at all hours of the day and night and demanded that I
>fill it when it got low on food.
>
>After a while, I couldn't even sit on my own back porch anymore. I took
>down the bird feeder and in three days the birds were gone. I cleaned up
>their mess and took down the many nests they had built all over the patio.
>Soon, the back yard was like it used to be...quite, serene and no one
>demanding their rights to a free meal.
>
>Now let's see . . . our government gives out free food, subsidized housing,
>free medical care, free education and allows anyone born here to be a
>automatic citizen.
>
>Then the illegals came by the tens of thousands. Suddenly our taxes went
>up to pay for free services; small apartments are housing 5 families: you
>have to wait 6 hours to be seen by an emergency room doctor: your child's
>2nd grade class is behind other schools because over half the class doesn't
>speak English.
>
>Corn Flakes now come in a bilingual box; I have to press "one" to hear my
>bank talk to me in English, and people waving flags other than "Old Glory"
>are squawking and screaming in the streets, demanding more rights and free
>liberties.
Maybe it's time for the government to take down the bird feeder.

[Dasein]

Also from the article:


The violence began unfolding when a helicopter flew low over the east side of the park and sirens blasted as police ordered people out of the park, telling them they would be arrested if they didn't leave.

The police formed a riot line across the park on the east side, forcing the crowd to move west. Some participants were yelling at police, "You can't do this."

Seems the police decided to force people out of the park, breaking up a peaceful demonstration.

[Laworkerbee]

Also from the article:


Seems the police decided to force people out of the park, breaking up a peaceful demonstration.

Once again

THEY WERE FOLLOWING ORDERS TO CLEAR THE AREA AND NOT ACTING ON A WHIM.

IT WAS AN UNLAWFUL DEMONSTRATION WITHOUT PERMITS THAT HAD GONE ON LONG ENOUGH

[Dasein]

Where do you get that it was an unlawful demosntration?

[Laworkerbee]

Where do you get that it was an unlawful demosntration?

There was no permit issued

[SBL]

Where do you get that it was an unlawful demosntration?

No permit= unlawful.
And as 2_Sheds pointed out, being that "they" were illegal aliens, their presence is the continued commision of a crime. Engage your brain.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

What a waste of time that was........

INS should have called in all the Border Patrol Buses, Tahoes and Expeditions it could and encircled them and voila! A successful, massive deportation.

So much for the media hyping it ehh?

Not even an hour before it was to start did Yahoo scramble to put up a headline that turnout was lower than expected.

......Why they couldn't just have stayed in Mexico and demand a better quality of life from their gov't is beyond me.................

......just a waste of time...............

[Laworkerbee]

......Why they couldn't just have stayed in Mexico and demand a better quality of life from their gov't is beyond me.................

Because Mexican police use live ammo

[RECON DOC]

Because Mexican police use live ammo

You took the words right out of my mouth.

How you doin stud?

[Dasein]

There was no permit issued

That wasn't stated in the article. Where are you getting this information from?

[Miles.]

rofl rofl @ Laworkerbee



These protests didn't do anything...maybe a few transient ****heads around the streets of Dallas.

I live in a hispanic neighborhood, and I didn't hear or see anything about it until just now.

[Dasein]

INS should have called in all the Border Patrol Buses, Tahoes and Expeditions it could and encircled them and voila! A successful, massive deportation.

Why do you assume that those protesting are undocumented immigrants? Or do you not care if you deport a bunch of US citizens as well?

[Mr. JOSHUA]

Why do you assume that those protesting are undocumented immigrants? Or do you not care if you deport a bunch of US citizens as well?


Why would legal citizens be demanding things already granted to them because they are already legal citizens?

[Laworkerbee]

You took the words right out of my mouth.

How you doin stud?

Pretty good! I had a nice over watch on the protest last night and it was quite a show....there was a point when you could just feel it in the air....trouble coming.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

Pretty good! I had a nice over watch on the protest last night and it was quite a show....there was a point when you could just feel it in the air....trouble coming.



It must have been my pedorro.

Sorry. :oops:

Frijolitos do that to me.

[RECON DOC]

Pretty good! I had a nice over watch on the protest last night and it was quite a show....there was a point when you could just feel it in the air....trouble coming.

Brown storm rising?
http://books.elsevier.com/companions/0240519515/layers/storm_clouds.jpg

[annihilation]

Also from the article:


Seems the police decided to force people out of the park, breaking up a peaceful demonstration.

You took the last comment in the article and made it sound like it happened first.

Here is the whole article.


Waving U.S. flags and demanding citizenship for undocumented immigrants, tens of thousands of jubilant protesters marched through the streets of Los Angeles on Tuesday during a mostly peaceful day that ended with clashes between police and demonstrators in MacArthur Park.

Fifteen police officers were among those hurt. About 10 people were taken from MacArthur Park by ambulance to hospitals for treatment, said d'Lisa Davies, a spokeswoman for the Los Angeles Fire Department. She said the injuries mainly were cuts, including head and neck wounds. None of the injuries were believed to be serious. Police reported that one demonstrator was arrested.

In Los Angeles, after police tried to disperse demonstrators who had moved off the sidewalk onto Alvarado Street about 6 p.m., some of the few thousand participants still in the park started throwing plastic bottles and rocks at officers <<<first mention of confrontation>>>

Then, several dozen riot police, clad in helmets and wielding batons, started clearing the park, firing a few dozen volleys of foam bullets into the crowd. <<<now the police move into the park >>>

Late Tuesday, a spokesman for Telemundo confirmed that one reporter and three camera operators from the Spanish-language TV station had been injured and had been taken to a hospital by police.

Another TV station, Fox 11, showed video on its 10 p.m. newscast of a Fox camerawoman apparently being struck by a baton-wielding police officer.

The violence began unfolding when a helicopter flew low over the east side of the park and sirens blasted as police ordered people out of the park, telling them they would be arrested if they didn't leave.

The police formed a riot line across the park on the east side, forcing the crowd to move west. Some participants were yelling at police, "You can't do this. " <<<what you qouted >>>>

Another confrontation came about 6:50 p.m., still well before nightfall, when a police car with lights blazing was bombarded by bottles and clothes as it passed. A line of officers fired several volleys of the foam bullets from wide-barreled launchers resembling shotguns. People started running while throwing things, including plastic bottles and palm fronds, at Metro buses. One hit a bus with a piece of wood.

More police cars streamed north on Rampart Boulevard and west on 6th Street. In Lafayette Park, several police jumped out with batons and tackled crowd members, arresting someone in the big pile. They chased reporters away.


Looks like the issue started when the cops tried to disperse the people who went onto the street which then caused the people in the park to toss **** at the cops (which is always a bad thing to do). If they didn't move onto the streets, I imagine nothing would have happened.

[Ordie]

What a waste of time that was........

INS should have called in all the Border Patrol Buses, Tahoes and Expeditions it could and encircled them and voila! A successful, massive deportation.

Bad PR for GOP canidates trying to win the Latino vote at the California Primaries next February.

Many US Citizens (i.e Voters) in California have relatives who are undocumented. Any action of that proportion in front of cameras will lose a generation of potential GOP votes for the next three elections. It happend with former Gov. Pete Wilson's endorsement of denying education benefits to undocumented immigrants. It led to a tidalwave of new citizenship applications among the Simpson-Mazzoli generation and new Democratic voters.

Ironically enough the GOP Business and Religious factions are in favor of immigration reforms. The business wants the availbility of labor and consumers. The fastest growing segment within the evangelical movement are Latino Immigrants. Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell are not stupid to turn away souls and numbers. The GOP "Blue/Camouflage collar" faction are not so warm to the idea, but Iraq will trump whatever issues for this group of voters.

[annihilation]

Bad PR for GOP canidates trying to win the Latino vote at the California Primaries next February.

Many US Citizens (i.e Voters) in California have relatives who are undocumented. Any action of that proportion in front of cameras will lose a generation of potential GOP votes for the next three elections. It happend with former Gov. Pete Wilson's endorsement of denying education benefits to undocumented immigrants. It led to a tidalwave of new citizenship applications among the Simpson-Mazzoli generation and new Democratic voters.

Ironically enough the GOP Business and Religious factions are in favor of immigration reforms. The business wants the availbility of labor and consumers. The fastest growing segment within the evangelical movement are Latino Immigrants. Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell are not stupid to turn away souls and numbers. The GOP "Blue/Camouflage collar" faction are not so warm to the idea, but Iraq will trump whatever issues for this group of voters.

Is that something that we want? People succuming to a group for their potential votes or someone who does whats right for the nation as a whole.
My mom is an immigrant and she is dead set against this amnesty. She thinks everyone should go through the same process and no one should be given a free pass if they crossed the boarder.

I do think some for immigration change needs to be done to allow more people and speed up the process to citizenship into this country but in the end it wont solve the issue with mexicans crossing over the boarder.

[Ordie]

Is that something that we want? People succuming to a group for their potential votes or someone who does whats right for the nation as a whole.

Welcome to America! and politics 101.

The last two presidential elections were "squeekers". Any means to get one more vote over your opponent is highly valuable. The GOP base is getting old, Anglo, extremist, and literally dying. The game is to attract an opponent's voters or a new base of reliable voters. Looking at the demographic numbers, the Latino votes will be critical for either party.

The Latino population has surpassed the African American population. Any detremental action today, may come back to haunt the current party in power in the future. That happend in California 10 years ago with proposition 187. It has been a "blue" state ever since thanks to newly registered Democrats who were formally undocumented before 1986.

[annihilation]

Welcome to America! and politics 101.

The last two presidential elections were "squeekers". Any means to get one more vote over your opponent is highly valuable. The GOP base is getting old, Anglo, extremist, and literally dying. The game is to attract an opponent's voters or a new base of reliable voters. Looking at the demographic numbers, the Latino votes will be critical for either party.

The Latino population has surpassed the African American population. Any detremental action today, may come back to haunt the current party in power in the future. That happend in California 10 years ago with proposition 187. It has been a "blue" state ever since thanks to newly registered Democrats who were formally undocumented before 1986.

California has always been a blue state. Also you assume that many legal hispanics support such actions from the illegal immigrant community. That really is not the case. Many, like my family, believe that the law must be uphelded and that its no excuse to cross the boarder at any given time and then demand citizenship or any certain rights. Mexico is also one not to talk about how we handle our situation (but thats another story).

Thinking about it. Really immigrantion reform is just really mexican reform. To allow more mexicans into this country. If immigrantion improved (more numbers and faster process) that would allow more people around the world to apply. But that won't fill the need by the mexican immigrants to come into this country (thats because they are land locked with us). But then again immigration reform wont do anything with out tighter boarder control because people will still be coming in droves.

[Ordie]

Plus my family is weary of hispanic power, coming from argentina the most you can do pray **** doesn't go south.

Che pive!!!

Its not only a Hispanic issue. 40% of all undocumented immigrants are visa overstays. It affects the relatively large Irish communities of New York and Boston. The Chinese Communities of San Francisco and Los Angeles. And European nannies within the Washington DC beltway.

The primary reason why the Latino got active on this issue a year ago, was the 'guilty by association' provision introduced by a GOP congressman from the Midwest. That is to say hosting an undocumented immigrant would be a felony. (Very similar language to the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850). That sent ripples throughout LA because many extended Latino families are a mix of citizens, residents and undocumented immigrants. (So much for family values)

Going South?
How many Bolivians and Paraguayans working in Argentina doing jobs that urban Portenos would not consider in doing? The problem in Argentina is that of a highly educated population not finding work in MD, Psychiatry, and social work sector and a rapidly growing argricultural and tourism sector. I highly doubt shrinks are willing to go to Mendoza to pick grapes every season or MD working as doormen in Bariloche.

Besides many Argentinians obtained Spanish and Italian citizenship and work in Europe including soccer players in the Spanish, French and Italian national teams.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

I will say this, this is the only thing that bothers me, the first thing that comes to mind when illegal immigration is brought up is Mexicans.

If we ever establish our rule of law, I would like to see the momentum of opposition towards the Mexicans and all other Hispanics applied towards asians, arabs, middle easterners, europeans and soforth with the majority of the effort applied to the asians and middle easterners.

It is those two groups that are specifically linked to terrorism abroad, its not limited to them but it is still the majority.

Maybe if the gov't focused on this aswell, there wouldn't be such a ruckus from all hispanics, legal or illegal.

[Laworkerbee]

This is an exodus from Mexico yet nobody wants to admit it

[Ordie]

I will say this, this is the only thing that bothers me, the first thing that comes to mind when illegal immigration is brought up is Mexicans.

If we ever establish our rule of law, I would like to see the momentum of opposition towards the Mexicans and all other Hispanics applied towards asians, arabs, middle easterners, europeans and soforth with the majority of the effort applied to the asians and middle easterners.

It is those two groups that are specifically linked to terrorism abroad, its not limited to them but it is still the majority.

Maybe if the gov't focused on this aswell, there wouldn't be such a ruckus from all hispanics, legal or illegal.

A paper/electronic trail exist for people who overstayed thier visas. Its not that hard to arrest them. Yet the INS only has a staff of 50 nationwide to deal with this issue. I have always argued that if there are ICE raids on Latino undocumented immigrants, there should also be ICE raids in Chinatown, South Boston, and the homes of Congressmen and Lobbyist within the beltway.

Only then the immigration debate and resolution can move forward.

[Shadowstorm]

Immigration debate is the most difficult and confusing issue in the American society, because alot of people support or oppose to it and a alot of politicans try to avoid this issue and when they try to past a bill it always get shot down, because it too soft or too hard. So it's like Chris Matthews said a few years ago "we will be dabating this issue for rest of are lives".

[Mastermind]

Regardless...the Communista Holiday, and Illegal Immigracion day were a complete bust...Fidel did not appear and the Mexican illegals hid out, afraid of the new INS mega round-ups that began after the last Great May Day celebracion. Besides, they are all hanging out in my neighborhood Star Nursery parking lot...they want to put my new sod down for me...and I don't even have a lawn!!! Only ten dollars an hour per hombre. I could hire twenty...even thirty and not even make a dent in the available illegal.,...but very cheap...labor force. If the agua was not so expensive, I would have them put down my sod for me and dig out my rocks and cactus. It would not be very much at all with their help.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Many US Citizens (i.e Voters) in California have relatives who are undocumented.

Pete Wilson's endorsement of denying education benefits to undocumented immigrants.

40% of all undocumented immigrants are visa overstays.

My love of maple syrup and Nazi outfits during *** is "undocumented". People breaking federal law to enter/remain in the US is "illegal".

Using such Orwellian correctspeak to address this problem is disingenuous at best and deceptive at worst, IMHO. It leads one to believe that if only they had written their name on a paper somewhere, they'd be welcomed with open arms...which is simply not the case. A fraction of them may eventually retroactively earn the title "undocumented", but each and every one of them is undeniably an "illegal immigrant" at the moment.


I will say this, this is the only thing that bothers me, the first thing that comes to mind when illegal immigration is brought up is Mexicans.


Agreed - but the squeaky wheel gets the grease after all. That's just how the world is. According to the Pew Hispanic Center, 57% of illegals are from Mexico, 24% are from other Latin American countries (and probably entered from Mexico), 9% from Asia, 6% from Europe/Canada, and 4% from the rest of the world. So as far as bang for the buck goes, Mexico would seem to be a good place to start anyhow.
http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/44.pdf

[deagle]

well, i have no problem with legal immigration, but illegal immigrants shouldn't have any rights granted to regular citizens (they still have other civil rights granted to human beings of course, not saying we can treat them like crap or anything). Its a slap to the face and an insult for those who went through the arduous process to become citizens of this country. It should be basically, we welcome you to become citizens or simply go back if you have no intention of becoming a citizens.

[Commander Shepard]

So what you are saying Ordie is that people who are legally trying to become US Permanent Residents (like many of my college friends, most of whom have not been able to obtain green cards and are being forced to return to their native countries) should go to the back of the line while those who came here illegaly get the first pick? Are you insane?

[Dasein]

So what you are saying Ordie is that people who are legally trying to become US Permanent Residents (like many of my college friends, most of whom have not been able to obtain green cards and are being forced to return to their native countries) should go to the back of the line while those who came here illegaly get the first pick? Are you insane?

Why is there only one line? Why are those who were here on student visas looking to become permanent residents even going through the same process a seasonal migrant worker might?

[JJC]

What pissed me off was seeing some of these people wave Che Gvara flags. Whata F%^&%, one thing is to ask for citizenship but waving your Socialist revolution crap is too much.

[RICHICOQUI]

I saw some protesters (local news) with red commie flags and Che Guavarea signs/t-shirts, socialist party, etc..etc..

Ironic that they chose "May Day" for this protest.


Doncha think?http://bp3.blogger.com/_L6pDyjqqsvY/RjgZKFxNLJI/AAAAAAAAD1U/eOnUhCsB1yY/s400/che3.jpg WHAT CHE AND ZAPATA GOT TO DO WITH THIS ISSUE??

[IraGlacialis]

http://bp3.blogger.com/_L6pDyjqqsvY/RjgZKFxNLJI/AAAAAAAAD1U/eOnUhCsB1yY/s400/che3.jpg WHAT CHE AND ZAPATA GOT TO DO WITH THIS ISSUE??
Come on, there is nothing more chic, no matter the occasion, than waving Che's face around. ;-)

BTW: the woman holding the signs looks like she is a middle schooler screaming over a boy band.

[Donkey punch]

absolutely nothing.. They get free air time..

[sferrin]

That's a good way to get cities sued into bankruptcy for civil rights violations. Mass arrests for peaceful demonstrations is not going to fly in the US.

Mind explaining how arresting someone for breaking the law is going to get a city sued? Pretty easy to sweep the crowds asking for ID don't you think? Of course you might get sued for the deaths from the resultant stampede (god forbid we actually blame the illegals responsible) but hopefully there'd be at least a few judges with the balls to do the correct thing.

[sferrin]

A parallel...
>
>I bought a bird feeder. I hung it on my back porch and filled it with
>seed. Within a week we had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the
>continuous flow of free and easily accessible food. But then the birds
>started building nests in the boards of the patio, above the table, and
>next to the barbecue.
>
>Then came the poop. It was everywhere: on the patio tile, the chairs, the
>table...everywhere. Then some of the birds turned mean: They would dive
>bomb me and try to peck me even though I had fed them out of my own pocket.
> And others birds were boisterous and loud: They sat on the feeder and
>squawked and screamed at all hours of the day and night and demanded that I
>fill it when it got low on food.
>
>After a while, I couldn't even sit on my own back porch anymore. I took
>down the bird feeder and in three days the birds were gone. I cleaned up
>their mess and took down the many nests they had built all over the patio.
>Soon, the back yard was like it used to be...quite, serene and no one
>demanding their rights to a free meal.
>
>Now let's see . . . our government gives out free food, subsidized housing,
>free medical care, free education and allows anyone born here to be a
>automatic citizen.
>
>Then the illegals came by the tens of thousands. Suddenly our taxes went
>up to pay for free services; small apartments are housing 5 families: you
>have to wait 6 hours to be seen by an emergency room doctor: your child's
>2nd grade class is behind other schools because over half the class doesn't
>speak English.
>
>Corn Flakes now come in a bilingual box; I have to press "one" to hear my
>bank talk to me in English, and people waving flags other than "Old Glory"
>are squawking and screaming in the streets, demanding more rights and free
>liberties.
Maybe it's time for the government to take down the bird feeder.



No you get a couple cats, sit back, and enjoy the show.

[sferrin]

Why do you assume that those protesting are undocumented immigrants? Or do you not care if you deport a bunch of US citizens as well?

That's why they've got this neat invention called I.D.

[sferrin]

I will say this, this is the only thing that bothers me, the first thing that comes to mind when illegal immigration is brought up is Mexicans.

What percentage of illegals are Mexican? And that's why they're the first to come to mind.

[IraGlacialis]

No you get a couple cats, sit back, and enjoy the show.
Pfft... cats.
You attract raptors. That is an even better show and more environmentally sound.

[Ordie]

Using such Orwellian correctspeak to address this problem is disingenuous at best and deceptive at worst, IMHO. It leads one to believe that if only they had written their name on a paper somewhere, they'd be welcomed with open arms...which is simply not the case. A fraction of them may eventually retroactively earn the title "undocumented", but each and every one of them is undeniably an "illegal immigrant" at the moment.


I will stop using the terminology "undocumented immigrant" if you don't think of an elephant. (right now.)

Gotcha!!!

[--Mac--]

Not sure if this is a repost.

George Carlin's Solution to Save Gasoline:

Bush wants us to cut the amount of gas we use. The best way to stop using so much gas is to deport 11million illegal immigrants! That would be
11 million less people using our gas. The price of gas would come down.
Bring our troops home from Iraq to guard the borders . When they catch an illegal immigrant crossing the border, hand him a canteen, rifle and some ammo and ship him to Iraq . Tell him if he wants to come to America then he must serve a tour in the military. Give him a soldier's pay while he's there and tax him on it. After his tour, he will be allowed to become a citizen since he defended this country. He will also be registered to be taxed and be a legal patriot. This option will probably deter illegal immigration and provide a solution for the troops in Iraq and the aliens trying to make a better life for themselves. If they refuse to serve, ship them to Iraq anyway, without the canteen, rifle or ammo. Problem solved. If you think this is a good solution to both the problems, forward it to your friends.

I just did.

[Commander Shepard]

Why is there only one line? Why are those who were here on student visas looking to become permanent residents even going through the same process a seasonal migrant worker might?

1) There is there a cap on the number of green cards given through employment each year. This fast track to immigration for illegals would give them priority over those who came here legally.

2) Many of my college friends have unsucessfully tried to get green cards and are being forced to go back to their home countries. Are you sure you want to reward those who snuck across the border over those who made it a point to go through the proper immigration channels? Where is the reward for coming to the US as a registered H1B visa holder, if you can sneak your way in and get Permanent Residency instead?

[Ordie]

Bush wants us to cut the amount of gas we use. The best way to stop using so much gas is to deport 11million illegal immigrants! That would be
11 million less people using our gas. The price of gas would come down.

Most undocumented immigrants are prohibited from obtaining drivers license. They tend to be transit dependents using buses, trains or bikes. Moreover the majority of undocumented immigrants live in high density urban areas where goods and services are within walking distances.

The percentage of autoless households are much higher in low income areas and within the urban core of most US cities.

Thus making Carlins argument moot.

[aj-0311]

Most undocumented immigrants are prohibited from obtaining drivers license. They tend to be transit dependents using buses, trains or bikes. Moreover the majority of undocumented immigrants live in high density urban areas where goods and services are within walking distances.

The percentage of autoless households are much higher in low income areas and within the urban core of most US cities.

Thus making Carlins argument moot.

Nevermind the countless, daily accidents involving unlicensed, uninsured "undocumented motorists", that drive up insurance costs, medical costs and tie up the legal system.

They had no problem and have no remorse by violating our laws to come here, what makes you think they don't think twice about driving here illegally?

[Ordie]

Nevermind the countless, daily accidents involving unlicensed, uninsured "undocumented motorists", that drive up insurance costs, medical costs and tie up the legal system.

The solution is for them to be integrated into general society with access to driver's license, insurance and car registration. I'd bet GM and Ford would love to tap into the $700,000,000,000 Latino immigrant market.

I sincerely think the high cost of medicine is more attributed to drug companies trying to re-coup the cost of R&R within the 7 year patent period and administration overhead. The legal system is tied with the lack of courts in dealing with a very litigious American society in general.

[aj-0311]

The solution is for them to be integrated into general society with access to driver's license, insurance and car registration. I'd bet GM and Ford would love to tap into the $700,000,000,000 Latino immigrant market.

I sincerely think the high cost of medicine is more attributed to drug companies trying to re-coup the cost of R&R within the 7 year patent period and administration overhead. The legal system is tied with the lack of courts in dealing with a very litigious American society in general.

Here you go, our tax dollars at work.

The Grotesque Myth Of
'Cheap' Illegal Labor
5-2-7


Cheap Tomatoes

This should make everyone think, be you Democrat, Republican or Independent

From a California school teacher - - -"As you listen to the news about the student protests over illegal immigration, there are some things that you should be aware of:

I am in charge of the English-as-a-second-language department at a large southern California high school which is designated a Title 1 school, meaning that its students average lower socioeconomic and income levels.

Most of the schools you are hearing about, South Gate High, Bell Gardens, Huntington Park, etc., where these students are protesting, are also Title 1 schools.

Title 1 schools are on the free breakfast and free lunch program. When I say free breakfast, I'm not talking a glass of milk and roll -- but a full breakfast and cereal bar with fruits and juices that would make a Marriott proud. The waste of this food is monumental, with trays and trays of it being dumped in the trash uneaten. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I estimate that well over 50% of these students are obese or at least moderately overweight. About 75% or more DO have cell phones. The school also provides day care centers for the unwed teenage pregnant girls (some as young as 13) so they can attend class without the inconvenience of having to arrange for babysitters or having family watch their kids. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I was ordered to spend $700,000 on my department or risk losing funding for the upcoming year even though there was little need for anything; my budget was already substantial. I ended up buying new computers for the computer learning center, half of which, one month later, have been carved with graffiti by the appreciative students who obviously feel humbled and grateful to have a free education in America. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I have had to intervene several times for young and substitute teachers whose classes consist of many illegal immigrant students here in the country less then 3 months who raised so much hell with the female teachers, calling them "Putas" whores and throwing things that the teachers
were in tears.

Free medical, free education, free food, day care etc., etc., etc. Is it any wonder they feel entitled to not only be in this country but to demand rights, privileges and entitlements?

To those who want to point out how much these illegal immigrants contribute to our society because they LIKE their gardener and housekeeper and they like to pay less for tomatoes: spend some time in the real world of illegal immigration and see the TRUE costs.

Higher insurance, medical facilities closing, higher medical costs, more crime, lower standards of education in our schools, overcrowding, new diseases etc., etc, etc. For me, I'll pay more for tomatoes.

We need to wake up. The guest worker program will be a disaster because we won't have the guts to enforce it.
Does anyone in their right mind really think they will voluntarily leave and return?

There are many hardworking Hispanic/American citizens that contribute to our country and many that I consider my true friends. We should encourage and accept those Hispanics who have done it the right and legal way.

It does, however, have everything to do with culture: A third-world culture that does not value education, that accepts children getting pregnant and dropping out of school by 15 and that refuses to assimilate, and an American culture that has become so weak and worried about "politically correct" that we don't have the will to do anything about it.

If this makes your blood boil, as it did mine, forward this to everyone you know.

CHEAP LABOR?

Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is about?

Business doesn't want to pay a decent wage

Consumers don't want expensive produce

Government will tell you Americans don't want the jobs

But the bottom line is cheap labor. The phrase "cheap labor" is a myth, a farce, and a lie. there is no such thing as "cheap labor."

Take, for example, an illegal alien with a wife and five children. He takes a job for $5.00 or $6.00/hour. At that wage, with six dependents, he pays no income tax, yet at the end of the year, if he files an Income Tax Return, he gets an "earned income credit" of up to $3,200 free.

He qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent

He qualifies for food stamps

He qualifies for free (no deductible, no co-pay) health care

His children get free breakfasts and lunches at school

He requires bilingual teachers and books

He qualifies for relief from high energy bills

If they are or become, aged, blind or disabled, they qualify for SSI. Once qualified for SSI they can qualify for Medicare. All of this is at taxpayer's expense

He doesn't worry about car insurance, life insurance, or homeowners insurance.

Taxpayers provide Spanish language signs, bulletins and printed material.

He and his family receive the equivalent of $20.00 to $30.00/hour in benefits.

Working Americans are lucky to have $5.00 or $6.00/hour left after paying their bills and his.

The American taxpayer's also pay for increased crime, graffiti and trash clean-up.

Cheap labor?

YEAH, RIGHT.

Wake up people

[Mr. JOSHUA]

What percentage of illegals are Mexican? And that's why they're the first to come to mind.


Yes, I know that, I am just saying, the other ethnicities should not be overlooked as they are now and should be scrutinized as much if not more than the Mexicans.

We'll have our problems with the Mexicans and everyone below Mexico, but that can debated and resolved over time (unless their granted amnesty and the right to vote) unlike other certain ethnic groups who do pose a security risk and are getting in just as easy.

[SBL]

Most undocumented immigrants are prohibited from obtaining drivers license.


That's why they all get them in North Carolina.p-)

[Mr. JOSHUA]

That's why they all get them in North Carolina.p-)


......and here in Texas....:cantbeli:

[aj-0311]

......and here in Texas....:cantbeli:

A few years ago, I was renewing my license in Austin. While waiting, a bus, yes a BUS pulls up and off-loads about 50 non english speaking people. In the waiting room, they gave a "class" in spanish on how to fill out the paperwork.

[Ordie]

Here you go, our tax dollars at work.

Step back and look at the big picture.

Save Our Cities

Wall Street Journal
By JULIA VITULLO-MARTIN
March 30, 2007; Page W13

The fate of a two-year-old war on illegal immigrants declared by the mayor of tiny Hazleton, Pa., a former coal town, is now in the hands of a federal judge. He will rule by June on Hazleton's Illegal Immigration Relief Act, which penalizes local businesses and landlords who employ or rent to illegal immigrants.

During the nine-day trial that concluded last Friday, Mayor Lou Barletta argued that some 10,000 undocumented immigrants have ruined Hazleton's quality of life: Violent crime has doubled in the past two years, unreimbursed medical expenses at local hospitals have jumped 60% and the annual school budget for teaching English as a second language has soared to $875,000 from $500. Yet business owners and landlords argued the opposite -- that immigrants had revitalized Hazleton's moribund economy, filling once-vacant apartments and patronizing once-declining businesses. As a result, Hazleton's budget has been in the black for three years -- a far cry from its $1.2 million deficit in 2000.
We will wait for the judge's ruling in Hazleton's case, but in other cities the verdict is already in: Immigrants have significantly improved the quality of life in many of America's most successful cities. Take Flushing, Queens. Passersby on the way from one of New York's airports into Manhattan may notice that Flushing has it all -- high-end seafood in elegant settings, bubble tea cafes and fried noodles from street vendors, not to mention Vietnamese pho and Korean barbecue. A jumble of restaurants, bakeries, storefronts and cultural institutions, Flushing, home to 177,000 people, is thriving.
What a difference a few decades make. In the 1960s Flushing was a wasteland, those same storefronts boarded up and the sidewalks empty -- so derelict that the area was designated in the city's 1975 federal community development block grant application as eligible for urban renewal money. Then came the Chinese immigrants, first in small numbers, then in great waves, through the 1980s and '90s. Long-time city planning official Sandy Hornick summarizes the 1970s as "back when we were trying to figure out what to do with Flushing before Flushing figured it out for itself."
Things looked very different for all of New York City back then. Facing bankruptcy, the city government found itself the reluctant owner of some 400,000 housing units abandoned by their owners, who refused to pay the steep property taxes. Many New Yorkers, in their despair at what seemed to be the city's inexorable decline, missed that their saviors were at hand. Chinese, especially from Hong Kong, and other Asians moved into Lower Manhattan; Dominicans and other Caribbeans spread through the Bronx and northern Manhattan; the Russians flooded Brighton Beach in Brooklyn; the Irish returned to northern Manhattan; Bengalis, Turks, Albanians, Uzbeks, Romanians moved to Queens. Immigrants are now even revitalizing sections of the most bucolic borough, Staten Island.
The recent bitter debates about immigration have split parties and divided allies, but one group has steadfastly supported immigrants: the smart big-city mayors -- Michael Bloomberg (New York), Antonio Villaraigosa (Los Angeles), Richard Daley (Chicago), Manny Diaz (Miami), Thomas Menino (Boston). "No public policy is more important to cities than federal immigration policy," says Mitchell Moss, professor of planning and public policy at New York University. "The immigration act of 1965 that opened up the country again and did more for cities than all the HUD bureaucrats put together or all the money spent on federal housing, transportation and welfare."
All booming American cities are immigrant cities. It's practically tautological. Cities that welcome immigrants -- both legal and illegal -- tend to have vital economies that expand exponentially as immigrants open new businesses, fill vacant jobs and move into declining neighborhoods. Immigrants form "extended clans," to use a term coined by Nathan Glazer and Pat Moynihan. They capture, and sometimes even invent, markets.
Jewish diamond cutters, Korean green grocers, Chinese restaurateurs, Russian massage therapists, Irish bartenders and Greek coffee-shop owners aren't stereotypes. They are the reflection of a real economic phenomenon. Immigrants sell goods and services to their own group and, once successful, to everybody else. Armed with little capital, they start labor-intensive businesses that employ friends and neighbors. The neighborhoods they settle in are decrepit, the commercial streets tired, the infrastructure overtaxed, the schools deplorable, but so what? All that will change when immigrants reach a core number, making an area their own.
New York, with some three million immigrants (about one-sixth of whom are here illegally), is the ultimate immigrant city -- and also the country's wealthiest. These two facts are not unrelated. New York may be unique in many respects, but there is no reason that the positive effect of immigrants can't be felt in cities much smaller. Mr. Moss argues: "There's nothing wrong with upstate [New York] cities that a good influx of immigrants couldn't solve." He notes that immigrants are already saving second-tier cities elsewhere, such as Minneapolis and Reading, Pa., an economically distressed, former industrial city with handsome housing stock.
Today it is not the Chinese but the Dominicans who are driving much of this next wave of urban revitalization. In 1990, nearly three-fourths of the country's half-million Dominicans lived in traditional gateway metropolitan areas like New York City, Paterson and Passaic, N.J., and Miami. Today that proportion is about 60%, says Pennsylvania State professor of sociology Leif Jensen. Highly entrepreneurial, Dominicans are opening small businesses -- restaurants, bodegas, taxi companies, auto repair shops -- in their new cities of Reading and Harrisburg, Pa., Grand Rapids, Mich., and Daytona, Fla. -- all cities that had been suffering from declining residential demand.
This isn't to say that there aren't problems. Reading, for example, has for several years been one of the most dangerous cities in the country, with a violent crime rate roughly twice the national average. Immigrants there and everywhere are in a sort of race: Will the hard-working, upwardly mobile ones be able to reap the rewards of American society fast enough to get their children educated and keep them out of trouble?
Not far from Reading, in Hazleton, Mayor Barletta says that local immigrants are losing that race and his town will suffer long-term harm as a result. Maybe a trip to Flushing would change his mind.
Ms. Vitullo-Martin is a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute.

[aj-0311]

Understand me, I'm not against immigration. However, I am against ILLEGAL immigration. They are federal felons and should be treated as such.

[JDAM]

Beyond me why illegals think they can get an inch flying foreign flags, provoking police, and wearing shirts that say "i'm illegal, so what?" Send them packing, build a wall and if they want to come here do it legally.

[Shadowstorm]

A wall is just a waste of money and obsolete. They will make more tunnels from Mexico to U.S and they been doing for years.

[Laworkerbee]

A wall is just a waste of money and obsolete. They will make more tunnels from Mexico to U.S and they been doing for years.

Not if we follow my plan.

Hire Mexicans to build the wall as just keep it as a never ending project woot

[Shadowstorm]

What's the point for that it would be pointness just wasting people, time and money. And the people who's building the wall while others are getting thru. Net me tell something these people ain't stupid, they will find many ways to get in to this country.

[Ordie]

What's the point for that it would be pointness just wasting people, time and money. And the people who's building the wall while others are getting thru. Net me tell something these people ain't stupid, they will find many ways to get in to this country.


"Fixed fortifications are monuments to man's stupidity.”
-Gen. George Patton

[Shadowstorm]

I agree with you 100%.

[sir-chimp]

"Fixed fortifications are monuments to man's stupidity.”
-Gen. George Patton

this shows the importance of taking quotes in context

Patton was not referring to mobs of civilians

[SPROCKET]

Wow, the Wall Street Journal supports illegals, big suprise. I wonder who's readers benefit from the cheap domestics, gardeners, and compliant low wage non-union labor??:roll: One article of pleasant anecdotes does not a good argument for unrestricted immigration make.

Personally I'm more concerned about America being bum rushed and our political process co-opted by people persuing agendas that benefit foreign countries. Already in California (and the southwest in general) non-Americans wield tremendous political power. We do not have an immigration problem, we have a survival problem. Eventually we will be swamped by the endless flood of latin american immigrants and our nation irrevocably changed for the worse.

[SBL]

Personally I'm more concerned about America being bum rushed and our political process co-opted by people persuing agendas that benefit foreign countries. Already in California (and the southwest in general) non-Americans wield tremendous political power. We do not have an immigration problem, we have a survival problem. Eventually we will be swamped by the endless flood of latin american immigrants and our nation irrevocably changed for the worse.

No one will admit it because they'll be branded racist or fear-mongerers, or risk being voted out of office.

[Shadowstorm]

this shows the importance of taking quotes in context

Patton was not referring to mobs of civilians
Yeah, but he has a point.

[sir-chimp]

We will see armed conflict with in the United States again in our life times.

And its all due to the inaction of both parties and the apathy of the American Citizen that is happening right now.

left unchecked Mexico's internal rot will only multiply and speed up the internal rot already at work with in the American Society.

I truly hope I am wrong, but my magic eight ball says other wise.


Yeah, but he has a point.

yep Patton does have a point - and the point is truly valid in context

[Ordie]

No one will admit it because they'll be branded racist or fear-mongerers, or risk being voted out of office.

Your homework:

Find out which states have the highest number of Latino immigrants and cross check it with states that have the highest Electorial College votes.

You'll find your answer.

Tequila anyone?

I'm buying.

[Shadowstorm]

We will see armed conflict with in the United States again in our life times.

And its all due to the inaction of both parties and the apathy of the American Citizen that is happening right now.

left unchecked Mexico's internal rot will only multiply and speed up the internal rot already at work with in the American Society.

I truly hope I am wrong, but my magic eight ball says other wise.



yep Patton does have a point - and the point is truly valid in contextWell I hope not, because war between United States and Mexico would be extremely disasterous for both sides.

[sir-chimp]

Your homework:

Find out which states have the highest number of Latino immigrants and cross check it with states that have the highest Electorial College votes.

You'll find your answer.

Tequila anyone?

I'm buying.

where did he imply it would be latinos voting said politician out of office?

the illegals wield much political power much in part due to the fact they have so many legal voters who side with their cause.

[sir-chimp]

Well I hope not, because war between United States and Mexico would be extremely disasterous for both sides.

No we will suffer internal strife which will be partly fueled and supported by factions out of mexico, not so much as "war" with mexico proper.

[Shadowstorm]

Mexico has their own problems with the drug cartels and EZLN even though the goverment is cracking down on these guys. That's one the reason alot of people coming up here.

[sir-chimp]

Mexico has their own problems with the drug cartels and EZLN even though the goverment is cracking down on these guys. That's one the reason alot of people coming up here.

mexico is cracking down on the cartels about as much as we are on illegal imigration

[WARPIG]

I'm having a problem stomaching the gross racism that drives this sort of conversation. This ****ing country was founded on the backs of immigrants. Our culture, economy, and way of life still depends on the diversity that immigrants, illegal or otherwise bring to the table. All the damn whining about tax burden and nonsense is just double talk for the passive agressive racism that most of you think you don't have. Immigrants at every stage of documentation work here and pay income tax. The majority of them when you look around. Yes, there is a significant number of immigrants getting paid under the table. But, none of the undocumented ones get to claim the money in the end. Income tax paid in.. none out. Do they lean on civil welfare for medical and other hand outs... yup.. but so do many citizens. Our immigration problem isn't the damn immigrants.. it's the government. We don't seem to enforce our laws, can't figure out how to control our own border and then lump all the blame on the people who want to come here and earn the right to be here. You friggin idiots sit her complaining about the people trying to get some of that opportunity that you all love to take for granted. If being undocumented in this country earns you the title of "criminal," which is how you all label illegal immigrants.. then most of you hypocrits should turn yourselves into the authorities for your crimes. Jaywalkers, speeders, you guys that park in the handicap spot to run to the ATM.. complain about having to choose friggin english.. and then run back to the car, limewire users, people who take home office supplies, overestimate their exemptions during tax season... all of you are criminals.

How about you twits stop with the racist stereotyping and point blame where it belongs. Blame the government for not managing immigration worth a damn. If people want to live here and become American.. make a valid process to do so. It doesn't matter how they got here, if they can contribute and meet the requirements to apply for residence and citizenship.. let em. The immigration process is broke and becoming legal or documented is buried under miles of red tape.. fix that.

Control the borders. Not because of friggin immigration.. but security. It's really two seperate issues when you think about it.

OK... I'll take a breath now.

[Shadowstorm]

Well I know their cracking down cartels. Yeah they need do something illegal immigration.

[JDAM]

I'm having a problem stomaching the gross racism that drives this sort of conversation. This ****ing country was founded on the backs of immigrants. Our culture, economy, and way of life still depends on the diversity that immigrants, illegal or otherwise bring to the table. All the damn whining about tax burden and nonsense is just double talk for the passive agressive racism that most of you think you don't have. Immigrants at every stage of documentation work here and pay income tax. The majority of them when you look around. Yes, there is a significant number of immigrants getting paid under the table. But, none of the undocumented ones get to claim the money in the end. Income tax paid in.. none out. Do they lean on civil welfare for medical and other hand outs... yup.. but so do many citizens. Our immigration problem isn't the damn immigrants.. it's the government. We don't seem to enforce our laws, can't figure out how to control our own border and then lump all the blame on the people who want to come here and earn the right to be here. You friggin idiots sit her complaining about the people trying to get some of that opportunity that you all love to take for granted. If being undocumented in this country earns you the title of "criminal," which is how you all label illegal immigrants.. then most of you hypocrits should turn yourselves into the authorities for your crimes. Jaywalkers, speeders, you guys that park in the handicap spot to run to the ATM.. complain about having to choose friggin english.. and then run back to the car, limewire users, people who take home office supplies, overestimate their exemptions during tax season... all of you are criminals.

How about you twits stop with the racist stereotyping and point blame where it belongs. Blame the government for not managing immigration worth a damn. If people want to live here and become American.. make a valid process to do so. It doesn't matter how they got here, if they can contribute and meet the requirements to apply for residence and citizenship.. let em. The immigration process is broke and becoming legal or documented is buried under miles of red tape.. fix that.

Control the borders. Not because of friggin immigration.. but security. It's really two seperate issues when you think about it.

OK... I'll take a breath now.

The issue is ILLEGAL immigration. No one has a "right" to be here, its a privlage. Thefore, you get in line just like the millions of others waiting patiently. Your breaking the law, plain and simple and should be subject to be deportation. There is nothing racist about being against ILLEGAL immigrantion.

My biggest concern is the stress on the healthcare system - it simply shuts down hospitals. You can yap all you want, but my community hospital shut down because it could not keep up with surge in free service to the ever increasing illegal population in my community. How do i know they are illegal? Because i take them to the hospital!

There is also an increasing concern of criminals who have hopped over the border. We dont need to have one country's criminals here, we've got more than enough of a problem with our own. This would be aleviated with much stronger border security.

Identity theft has become a big problem as well.

No doubt the government needs to square their ass away on this, but i dont see anything wrong with being against ILLEGAL immigration. I mean, lets be honest here, a bunch of illegals banding together in downtown LA flying foreign flags. Not exactly a proactive message or methodology. I dont see why we should bend over backward for that kind of behavior. In fact we dont have to tolerate it because they arent even supposed to be here!

[Nano]

I'm having a problem stomaching the gross racism that drives this sort of conversation. This ****ing country was founded on the backs of immigrants. Our culture, economy, and way of life still depends on the diversity that immigrants, illegal or otherwise bring to the table. All the damn whining about tax burden and nonsense is just double talk for the passive agressive racism that most of you think you don't have. Immigrants at every stage of documentation work here and pay income tax. The majority of them when you look around. Yes, there is a significant number of immigrants getting paid under the table. But, none of the undocumented ones get to claim the money in the end. Income tax paid in.. none out. Do they lean on civil welfare for medical and other hand outs... yup.. but so do many citizens. Our immigration problem isn't the damn immigrants.. it's the government. We don't seem to enforce our laws, can't figure out how to control our own border and then lump all the blame on the people who want to come here and earn the right to be here. You friggin idiots sit her complaining about the people trying to get some of that opportunity that you all love to take for granted. If being undocumented in this country earns you the title of "criminal," which is how you all label illegal immigrants.. then most of you hypocrits should turn yourselves into the authorities for your crimes. Jaywalkers, speeders, you guys that park in the handicap spot to run to the ATM.. complain about having to choose friggin english.. and then run back to the car, limewire users, people who take home office supplies, overestimate their exemptions during tax season... all of you are criminals.

How about you twits stop with the racist stereotyping and point blame where it belongs. Blame the government for not managing immigration worth a damn. If people want to live here and become American.. make a valid process to do so. It doesn't matter how they got here, if they can contribute and meet the requirements to apply for residence and citizenship.. let em. The immigration process is broke and becoming legal or documented is buried under miles of red tape.. fix that.

Control the borders. Not because of friggin immigration.. but security. It's really two seperate issues when you think about it.

OK... I'll take a breath now.

Hit it right on the nail Warpig. I could not have said it better myself.

[sir-chimp]

If being undocumented in this country earns you the title of "criminal," which is how you all label illegal immigrants.. then most of you hypocrits should turn yourselves into the authorities for your crimes. Jaywalkers, speeders, you guys that park in the handicap spot to run to the ATM.. complain about having to choose friggin english.. and then run back to the car, limewire users, people who take home office supplies, overestimate their exemptions during tax season... all of you are criminals.



that has to be one of the grossest misrepresentations and comparisons i have ever seen.


Blame the government for not managing immigration worth a damn

frankly i put much of the blame on my fellow citizens for not taking the government to task in its failure to secure the borders and check the rampant illegal flow into the united states and for creating a system that rewards illegal immigration while almost punishing legal immigrants


I'm having a problem stomaching the gross racism that drives this sort of conversation


is just double talk for the passive agressive racism

of course much of the apathy of the american is in part out of fear of being labled such as in the above rant

[Shadowstorm]

I'm having a problem stomaching the gross racism that drives this sort of conversation. This ****ing country was founded on the backs of immigrants. Our culture, economy, and way of life still depends on the diversity that immigrants, illegal or otherwise bring to the table. All the damn whining about tax burden and nonsense is just double talk for the passive agressive racism that most of you think you don't have. Immigrants at every stage of documentation work here and pay income tax. The majority of them when you look around. Yes, there is a significant number of immigrants getting paid under the table. But, none of the undocumented ones get to claim the money in the end. Income tax paid in.. none out. Do they lean on civil welfare for medical and other hand outs... yup.. but so do many citizens. Our immigration problem isn't the damn immigrants.. it's the government. We don't seem to enforce our laws, can't figure out how to control our own border and then lump all the blame on the people who want to come here and earn the right to be here. You friggin idiots sit her complaining about the people trying to get some of that opportunity that you all love to take for granted. If being undocumented in this country earns you the title of "criminal," which is how you all label illegal immigrants.. then most of you hypocrits should turn yourselves into the authorities for your crimes. Jaywalkers, speeders, you guys that park in the handicap spot to run to the ATM.. complain about having to choose friggin english.. and then run back to the car, limewire users, people who take home office supplies, overestimate their exemptions during tax season... all of you are criminals.

How about you twits stop with the racist stereotyping and point blame where it belongs. Blame the government for not managing immigration worth a damn. If people want to live here and become American.. make a valid process to do so. It doesn't matter how they got here, if they can contribute and meet the requirements to apply for residence and citizenship.. let em. The immigration process is broke and becoming legal or documented is buried under miles of red tape.. fix that.

Control the borders. Not because of friggin immigration.. but security. It's really two seperate issues when you think about it.

OK... I'll take a breath now.I agree with you their, After seeing what happening in that demostration Monday in LA and racist and hate groups on both sides on the rise, this should be major concern, because the last thing we do not want is Northern Ireland situation were people carrying machine guns on the streets.

[Dasein]

Personally I'm more concerned about America being bum rushed and our political process co-opted by people persuing agendas that benefit foreign countries. Already in California (and the southwest in general) non-Americans wield tremendous political power. We do not have an immigration problem, we have a survival problem. Eventually we will be swamped by the endless flood of latin american immigrants and our nation irrevocably changed for the worse.

The same has been said about pretty much every previous wave of immigrants. The same arguments we're seeing now about Latin immigrants were said about the Irish immigrants 160 years ago, and the Know Nothing spirit hasn't died in this country.

[IraGlacialis]

I agree with you their, After seeing what happening in that demostration Monday in LA and racist and hate groups on both sides on the rise, this should be major concern, because the last thing we do not want is Northern Ireland situation were people carrying machine guns on the streets.
*cough*bs-11-year-old-shoots-illegals-"article"*cough*

[Ordie]

where did he imply it would be latinos voting said politician out of office?

the illegals wield much political power much in part due to the fact they have so many legal voters who side with their cause.

The electorial college individual votes alloted to each state is based on census data. The census includes all people regardless of status. The more electoral college votes, the more chances the presidential canidate may get into office.

Moreover, the census data is used to determine the number of congressional seats each state may have. Immigration (including the undocumented) has helped many Mid-west, Northeast and Southern states to retain or gain the number of representatives in DC.

This is a BIG deal because the census numbers are also used to program federal funding for local projects.

[sir-chimp]

The electorial college individual votes alloted to each state is based on census data. The census includes all people regardless of status. The more electoral college votes, the more chances the presidential canidate may get into office.

Moreover, the census data is used to determine the number of congressional seats each state may have. Immigration (including the undocumented) has helped many Mid-west, Northeast and Southern states to retain or gain the number of representatives in DC.

This is a BIG deal because the census numbers are also used to program federal funding for local projects.

thats great

Again where did he imply it would be latinos voting said politician out of office or even mention the negative or positive effects on the potential electoral votes a presidential canidate can attain, or seats in the senate.


He pointed out and it was so clearly highlighted in warpigs post - people are afraid of speaking out and being labeled a racist, especially politicians.

The use of the lable racist in our society is the same as the lable of "blasphemer of god" had in societies of old (and current), "politicaly incorrect" follows the same train of thought - and often enough both lables are used together.

You post has nothing to do with what he was pointing out.

though your post does reinforce my opinion that illegals and the supporters of their agenda wield enormous political power while illegals can not legally vote.

[Lt. James Anderson]

Illegal = criminal.

Simple as that.


You friggin idiots sit her complaining about the people trying to get some of that opportunity that you all love to take for granted.

And that opportunity came "out of nowhere"?
I don't take anything for granted. I had to work hard for everything I have and so did everybody in my family ever since we came over here LEGALLY.

[Shadowstorm]

*cough*bs-11-year-old-shoots-illegals-"article"*cough*
Not even talking about issue. Off topic.

[Ordie]

thats great

Again where did he imply it would be latinos voting said politician out of office or even mention the negative or positive effects on the potential electoral votes a presidential canidate can attain, or seats in the senate.


The US Senate seats stays fixed at 100 with 2 Senators for each state regardless of population (The Vice President is a member of the Senate and acts as the vote breaker). Its the House of Representative seats that gets re-apportioned every 10 years based on census data.

So far the South and the Southwestern states have gained representation in the House due to an increase of population (baby boomers, international immigration, and migration of urban African Americans back into the South). The losers are in the "rust belt areas" of Ohio and Pennsylvania.

Eventhough this may be seen as a good thing for these states in terms of getting more pork money and influence in DC, it does shake up the political status quo. Therefore making the South less red and more purple.

Have you taken Civics in high school?

[SBL]

I'm having a problem stomaching the gross racism that drives this sort of conversation. This ****ing country was founded on the backs of immigrants. Our culture, economy, and way of life still depends on the diversity that immigrants, illegal or otherwise bring to the table. All the damn whining about tax burden and nonsense is just double talk for the passive agressive racism that most of you think you don't have. Immigrants at every stage of documentation work here and pay income tax. The majority of them when you look around. Yes, there is a significant number of immigrants getting paid under the table. But, none of the undocumented ones get to claim the money in the end. Income tax paid in.. none out. Do they lean on civil welfare for medical and other hand outs... yup.. but so do many citizens. Our immigration problem isn't the damn immigrants.. it's the government. We don't seem to enforce our laws, can't figure out how to control our own border and then lump all the blame on the people who want to come here and earn the right to be here. You friggin idiots sit her complaining about the people trying to get some of that opportunity that you all love to take for granted. If being undocumented in this country earns you the title of "criminal," which is how you all label illegal immigrants.. then most of you hypocrits should turn yourselves into the authorities for your crimes. Jaywalkers, speeders, you guys that park in the handicap spot to run to the ATM.. complain about having to choose friggin english.. and then run back to the car, limewire users, people who take home office supplies, overestimate their exemptions during tax season... all of you are criminals.

How about you twits stop with the racist stereotyping and point blame where it belongs. Blame the government for not managing immigration worth a damn. If people want to live here and become American.. make a valid process to do so. It doesn't matter how they got here, if they can contribute and meet the requirements to apply for residence and citizenship.. let em. The immigration process is broke and becoming legal or documented is buried under miles of red tape.. fix that.

Control the borders. Not because of friggin immigration.. but security. It's really two seperate issues when you think about it.

OK... I'll take a breath now.

I do blame the government.
But I am somewhat resentful of the fact that large swathes of people who technically, aren't supposed to be here, are making demands of the very government that is allowing them to stay here ''unofficially''.
Call me predjudiced and you'd probably be right. Call me racist, and you'd be wrong. I don't care if they are Mexican or Englishmen. I just want some semblance of control and security to be restored. After a generation or so, it won't matter where they came from or whether their parents were 'legal' or not; but what unsettles me is this unchecked mass of people flowing in and out year after year.
Speaking honestly, I resent a lot of things about the current situation, but what it comes down to is a matter of security. Furthermore, my feeligns are not base on some blind fear of ''foreigners''. I'm a pretty worldy guy, I've been all over the world and met all kinds of interesting people and take great interest in foreign cultures.
Anyway, I've had a few beers so I'm not sure how cohearant it is at this point, also, I don't consider myself to be good at writing my thoughts in cogent manner, but I just wanted to establish the fact that this isn't just some redneck, kneejerk, racist reaction. I think my gripes are legitimate.

[Ordie]

Anyway, I've had a few beers so I'm not sure how cohearant it is at this point, also, I don't consider myself to be good at writing my thoughts in cogent manner, but I just wanted to establish the fact that this isn't just some redneck, kneejerk, racist reaction. I think my gripes are legitimate.

Here,

This one's on me!!!!

http://www.laurelcanyonthebook.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/tequila.jpg

[SBL]

^haha, thanks buddy.

[Dasein]

Illegal = criminal.

Simple as that.

So?

George Washington waged war against the lawful colonial government. He was a criminal and also our first president.

Escaped slaves who fled to the north, and those who assisted them were criminals, yet now we recognize them for standing up to an unjust practice.

In the 50s and 60s, many people engaged in acts of civil disobedience to protest Jim Crow laws in the south. They were criminals, yet we consider their actions noble and right.

So, being a criminal doesn't mean a whole lot.

[annihilation]

So?

George Washington waged war against the lawful colonial government. He was a criminal and also our first president.

Escaped slaves who fled to the north, and those who assisted them were criminals, yet now we recognize them for standing up to an unjust practice.

In the 50s and 60s, many people engaged in acts of civil disobedience to protest Jim Crow laws in the south. They were criminals, yet we consider their actions noble and right.

So, being a criminal doesn't mean a whole lot.


But thats activities within our own boarders by americans not having a mass influx of people from outside coming in and demanding the change. I do think an increase in the number of skilled and non skilled immigrants allowed into this country should considered. America can easily absorb it (I don't think the europeans can on the other hand). But to give a free pass to those who jumped the line and illegally came to this country, I just don't think is the proper way to go.

[Baboonass]

But to give a free pass to those who jumped the line and illegally came to this country, I just don't think is the proper way to go.

X2.

Talk to any natualized citizen and ask them their opinion about this.


Unfair is an understatement.


Natualized citizens have quite a process to contend with, as well as a plethora or rules and regulations they have to adhere to after they become sworn citizens.


I can respect someone wanting a better life for them or their family. I can respect wanting to live in this great nation, much in the same catagory as I can respect anyone wanting to improve their staus in life.

What I can't respect however, is someone stealing or otherwise cheating to get ahead. There are processes in place, and good reason for these processes.

What makes your plight more important than others who want the same thing?

It's selfish and wrong.

[SBL]

^Not to mention the security risks posed by having a wide-open border. MS13, for example.

[Baboonass]

^Not to mention the security risks posed by having a wide-open border. MS13, for example.

Ehem.


There are processes in place, and good reason for these processes.



Winky.

[WARPIG]

Illegal = criminal.

Simple as that.



And that opportunity came "out of nowhere"?
I don't take anything for granted. I had to work hard for everything I have and so did everybody in my family ever since we came over here LEGALLY.

If it's as simple as that.. how often do you break the law on the commute to work or school? Roll through a stop sign, don't signal a turn because no one is around, drive 80 down a rural country road.. etc.. you are a criminal.

My point is that, illegals (or undocumented) immigrants need to be given the same opportunity to make up for their "crime" and fix the status. A free shot at citizenship isn't what makes sense. I think illegals need to pay through the nose to in penalties. Of course, those of us born here got our citizenship for free. So, treating someone who wants to be a citizen, but can't due to being geographically unlucky, as a criminal is pretty ridiculous and un-American. If I speed, or run a traffic light.. I run the risk of getting a traffic fine. I broke the law and should expect to be held accountable. But, mosts of us expect either to not get caught, or we play the odds that the cop will let us off with a warning. How is immigration different?

[WARPIG]

X2.

Talk to any natualized citizen and ask them their opinion about this.


Unfair is an understatement.


Natualized citizens have quite a process to contend with, as well as a plethora or rules and regulations they have to adhere to after they become sworn citizens.


I can respect someone wanting a better life for them or their family. I can respect wanting to live in this great nation, much in the same catagory as I can respect anyone wanting to improve their staus in life.

What I can't respect however, is someone stealing or otherwise cheating to get ahead. There are processes in place, and good reason for these processes.

What makes your plight more important than others who want the same thing?

It's selfish and wrong.

My mother is naturalized and so is my wife. I've asked..

Guess what.. assuming all illegals are out to cheat the system, steal cititizenship(is that possible), or get ahead by staying undocumented is really ignorant. The majority of immigrants legal and illegal, would prefer a track to citizenship that was on the up and up.

Of course there is a good reason for the processes.. but the lack of enforcement and the mountain of red tape isn't working. No one wants or expects a lowering of the bar so more immigrants can get legal. On the contrary, there needs to be a workable process that our government can actually manage. Illegal status should come with a penalty. Depending on what you did to get here, your motivation to get here, and what you have done while here.. that penalty can and should include deportation when warranted. That is pretty much how it is supposed to be now.. but it's bogged down. I agree with the fact that our borders are wide open. That's a security issue. But, if our borders were more secure..then the volume of immigrants would be more manageable. Fix the red tape and work the process so it makes sense.. and then you will be able to hold the immigrants responsible for their status here. Right now.. our government is who is botching this up. Punishing immigrants because our government can't get it right doesn't make sense.

[Jobu]

Leave your door unlocked and then when a criminal walks into your home and steals your stuff, you are to blame. How dare you leave your door unlocked!?! To blame the illegal intruder is racist!

[SBL]

n/m.............

[WARPIG]

Leave your door unlocked and then when a criminal walks into your home and steals your stuff, you are to blame. How dare you leave your door unlocked!?! To blame the illegal intruder is racist!

So are all criminals illegal immigrants? Funny, the last two real criminals I've dealt with were American citizens.. born and raised. Your logic is a bit vague. What are you trying to say? Seriously, with out the sarcasm.. what is your point really?

[Mastermind]

About half the people in our design office are not US Citizens. They have been brought over by our company not for inexpensive labor...but becasue we could not find enough talent here. We have Russians, Hindus from India, a Mexican, a slew of Canadians, Phillipinos, a person from Romania, a hilarious Polish guy...and a few I have no idea where they are from...but, all do excellent work right alongside us good old fassioned legal Americans. We have a ball here...it is a great place to work. But, all of these people came here legally! Some took more than ten years to get here. Some still have children overseas. I have to wonder...if we did get this "foregin labor" in here legally...why can't almond growers in California? Why can't contractors, cleaning services, landscapers? What is the big deal about LEGALLY importing labor?

I'll tell you what the big deal is. It is not a legal or illegal worker problem...it is an illegal employer problem..employers who want cheap, black market labor at the expense of the poor Mexican people.....if I were a Mexican, I would demand legalization of my labor here in the USA to protect me from the outragous abuses these people go through here at the hands of unscrupulous employers.

Now, think about it...why would politicians want to keep the status quo going and drop the sothern border protection? Because of all that money they get from donations from the illegal Mexican workers who get paid crap for wages or because of all that money they get from the American employers of all that illegal Mexican labor,who are making a massive fortune from it?
The illegal Mexican is not the problem...the problem is much closer to home.

[ed316]

The people to blame are politicians from both sides of the border. Ours for ignoring the problem and Mexico's for not doing a damn thing about their economy for so long. People will be people. Which means they will try to make a better life for them and thier families no matter if laws are broken.

[helomech]

The possibility of those who gather to protest could be in the US illegally,therefore,round them up and ship them all out back to their native countries...

I find,that if I sit back and wait the solution presents itself...

[StukaJr]

Not if we follow my plan.

Hire Mexicans to build the wall as just keep it as a never ending project woot

"Laworkerbee has exceeded their stored private messages quota and can not accept further messages until they clear some space."

Hire a Mexican to clean out your PM Box... Andale! Andale! p-)

[IraGlacialis]

Not even talking about issue. Off topic.
If though it wasn't talked about, that subject is not really that off-topic.
That article, especially that it was fake, could have just said "11-year-old Shot and Killed Two Intruders". Instead, the title "Illegal Immigrants" was used. What does it truly matter if the intruders were illegals? There are just as many citizens that break into homes and kill people.
And even though the article was over a year old, it suspiciously made a comeback during the protests. Coincidence?
I am against illegal immigration, even though I don't it practically stopping (especially with the corporations hiring them for lower salaries), but that is just xenophobic crap.
I am dropping the subject.

[Laworkerbee]

"Laworkerbee has exceeded their stored private messages quota and can not accept further messages until they clear some space."

Hire a Mexican to clean out your PM Box... Andale! Andale! p-)

Si Jeffe siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii:)

[Miles.]

LOL

That's wacist.

[Baboonass]

Fix the red tape and work the process so it makes sense.. and then you will be able to hold the immigrants responsible for their status here. Right now.. our government is who is botching this up. Punishing immigrants because our government can't get it right doesn't make sense.



So the answer is to continue to alow illegal boarder crossing untill the government figures out a better way to enforce and naturalize?


Yikes!


So you would say what to a Chinese immagrant, or Polish, Russian, etc..etc..etc... They should just come on over, forget the process and live here illegaly untill "the government fixes it"?

Please.

[Laworkerbee]

It's simply not fair to all of those good citizens who became legal the proper way, hell they are better citizens than I am.

Just ask StukaJr that law abiding bitch, I can't get him to step over the line and trust me I've tried.

[IraGlacialis]

So you would say what to a Chinese immagrant, or Polish, Russian, etc..etc..etc... They should just come on over, forget the process and live here illegaly untill "the government fixes it"?

Please.
Even though it happens, I doubt that it is as easy for those mentioned to come in illegally as the Mexicans.
And I would disagree with they are doing.

[Shadowstorm]

If though it wasn't talked about, that subject is not really that off-topic.
That article, especially that it was fake, could have just said "11-year-old Shot and Killed Two Intruders". Instead, the title "Illegal Immigrants" was used. What does it truly matter if the intruders were illegals? There are just as many citizens that break into homes and kill people.
And even though the article was over a year old, it suspiciously made a comeback during the protests. Coincidence?
I am against illegal immigration, even though I don't it practically stopping (especially with the corporations hiring them for lower salaries), but that is just xenophobic crap.
I am dropping the subject.Well I was talking massive race wars. On the 11 year girl who killed those two guys, I fell sorry for the family, but I don't feel sorry for those guys who tried to rob their house.

[Shadowstorm]

The biggest concern to me on border issue is Canadian border which is less guarded even though they got sensors, border patrol and other security stuff.

[StukaJr]

Can't say that the process is "broken" - the process is simply hard... Took 2 lawyers, nine years, about 25 grand in lawyer fees and a court trial - but our family made it in the end, even though our case was deemed very hard...

Some people stay in the "contrey" for a dozen years and have US born kids - all it takes is a "do it yourself lawyer" and few hundred bucks in fees... You don't have to speak English to get a Green Card, but there they are - yelling and screaming how broken and unjust the system is... It's a slam dunk case - you can't get denied, you can't get "deported" - all it takes is getting off the lazy a$$ and getting in line! Rename this "Tax Evaders Roundup" and save yourself from the political nightmare...

And for "doing the jobs Americans don't want to do" - I didn't realize that raiding our recycling cans at 3 AM was a job!

[sferrin]

I'm having a problem stomaching the gross racism that drives this sort of conversation. This ****ing country was founded on the backs of immigrants. Our culture, economy, and way of life still depends on the diversity that immigrants, illegal or otherwise bring to the table. All the damn whining about tax burden and nonsense is just double talk for the passive agressive racism that most of you think you don't have. Immigrants at every stage of documentation work here and pay income tax. The majority of them when you look around. Yes, there is a significant number of immigrants getting paid under the table. But, none of the undocumented ones get to claim the money in the end. Income tax paid in.. none out. Do they lean on civil welfare for medical and other hand outs... yup.. but so do many citizens. Our immigration problem isn't the damn immigrants.. it's the government. We don't seem to enforce our laws, can't figure out how to control our own border and then lump all the blame on the people who want to come here and earn the right to be here. You friggin idiots sit her complaining about the people trying to get some of that opportunity that you all love to take for granted. If being undocumented in this country earns you the title of "criminal," which is how you all label illegal immigrants.. then most of you hypocrits should turn yourselves into the authorities for your crimes. Jaywalkers, speeders, you guys that park in the handicap spot to run to the ATM.. complain about having to choose friggin english.. and then run back to the car, limewire users, people who take home office supplies, overestimate their exemptions during tax season... all of you are criminals.

How about you twits stop with the racist stereotyping and point blame where it belongs. Blame the government for not managing immigration worth a damn. If people want to live here and become American.. make a valid process to do so. It doesn't matter how they got here, if they can contribute and meet the requirements to apply for residence and citizenship.. let em. The immigration process is broke and becoming legal or documented is buried under miles of red tape.. fix that.

Control the borders. Not because of friggin immigration.. but security. It's really two seperate issues when you think about it.

OK... I'll take a breath now.



That's insane. That's no different than saying it's the woman's fault for getting raped and anyone who thinks it's the rapist's is a closet man-hater.

[StukaJr]

I'm having a problem stomaching the gross racism that drives this sort of conversation. This ****ing country was founded on the backs of immigrants.

If I remember my history lessons correctly, the intake of immigrants was very selective through the history of the US - no sick or disabled and from select nations only... If immigration official at Conney Island didn't deem you worthy - back you go on the ship and 6 more months on the high seas back to wherever you came from. Before you tell fairy tales about the land of freedom any immigrant could escape to - check the reality of the Migration to the New World.

And yes, I'm naturalized alien - there is a world of difference between being illegal and naturalized alien - once an alien files papers through the due process, that person is legal 24/7 until their case is heard. Rights to work, education, free healthcare, driver's license, travel, leave and re-enter the country - you name it. Legal Alien is just that - a person whom does not lapse from a system for a day. Lapse of legal status would negate naturalization process and would get a person deported, so I'm not sure what illegal immigration problem has to do with law abiding legal aliens like myself!

[sferrin]

If I remember my history lessons correctly, the intake of immigrants was very selective through the history of the US - no sick or disabled and from select nations only... If immigration official at Conney Island didn't deem you worthy - back you go on the ship and 6 more months on the high seas back to wherever you came from. Before you tell fairy tales about the land of freedom any immigrant could escape to - check the reality of the Migration to the New World.

And yes, I'm naturalized alien - there is a world of difference between being illegal and naturalized alien - once an alien files papers through the due process, that person is legal 24/7 until their case is heard. Rights to work, education, free healthcare, driver's license, travel, leave and re-enter the country - you name it. Legal Alien is just that - a person whom does not lapse from a system for a day. Lapse of legal status would negate naturalization process and would get a person deported, so I'm not sure what illegal immigration problem has to do with law abiding legal aliens like myself!


FREE healthcare? WTF is up with that? Are you seriously telling me I had to pay taxes on my unemployment when I got laid off to support some douchbag who just got here? That's f--ked up if it's true.

[Laworkerbee]

FREE healthcare? WTF is up with that? Are you seriously telling me I had to pay taxes on my unemployment when I got laid off to support some douchbag who just got here? That's f--ked up if it's true.

I don't want to live in a society that turns the sick away for lack of resources. We need in a very rich society, if our country can afford bombers that cost $900million bombers then goddamnit it can afford healthcare for the poor regardless of where they are from once they are in a hospital.

I myself was steamed last year when I had to go to the hospital and had to wait over 9 hours to be seen because of people ahead of me without insurance.

People without insurance use Medicaid which ties up the emergency rooms of every major hospital because they only get treated when there is an emergency people use "emergeny" to get a bad cough taken care of and thats pathetic

Damn I ranted sorry :|

[sferrin]

I don't want to live in a society that turns the sick away for lack of resources. We need in a very rich society, if our country can afford bombers that cost $900million bombers then goddamnit it can afford healthcare for the poor regardless of where they are from once they are in a hospital.

I myself was steamed last year when I had to go to the hospital and had to wait over 9 hours to be seen because of people ahead of me without insurance.

People without insurance use Medicaid which ties up the emergency rooms of every major hospital because they only get treated when there is an emergency people use "emergeny" to get a bad cough taken care of and thats pathetic

Damn I ranted sorry :|


speaking of ranting I must have stood in the wrong g--amn line because I had to shell out 3000 greenbacks when I was unemployed AND uninsured. (Not a fun place to be- avoid it at all cost.)

[Miles.]

Just ask StukaJr that law abiding bitch, I can't get him to step over the line and trust me I've tried.

Buttsecks?

[StukaJr]

FREE healthcare? WTF is up with that? Are you seriously telling me I had to pay taxes on my unemployment when I got laid off to support some douchbag who just got here? That's f--ked up if it's true.

Not sure about the rest of the country, but Los Angeles County has a large number of free hospitals - some state and some are privately run. They are meant for anybody whom can't afford health care and not just immigrants - you could look one up near you and take advantage of it at your will... It is a situation of "you get what you pay for", just like "foodstamps" are not "free money"... I went to a free state run hospital once when we couldn't afford $300 chest X-Ray when my TB test came in positive - it was free, rather than facilities were dingy, wait like in the ER and we had to wait for 3 months to get the results... That was the last time we used "free" healthcare as we chose to borrow the money than wait for months for simple procedures and delay my education any further.

I don't know what's more f--ked up - immigrant family being on welfare until they acclimate or third/fourth/fifth generation welfare families whose kids grow up without knowing what a paycheck is? Or a person on H1 Visa paying Social Security and other "benefits" they are not entitled to? Most H1 holders pay in taxes what some make annually before taxes.

[Laworkerbee]

Buttsecks?

pfft that isn't illegal in Commiefornia Pal, I could probably get a better apartment if I was gay :|

[WARPIG]

So the answer is to continue to alow illegal boarder crossing untill the government figures out a better way to enforce and naturalize?


Yikes!


So you would say what to a Chinese immagrant, or Polish, Russian, etc..etc..etc... They should just come on over, forget the process and live here illegaly untill "the government fixes it"?
I'm having a hard time finding where I said that^^.. but that could be because your simply reading into my post.

Please.

Ohh.. look how polite.. or was that condescending? Let me break it down to the elementary level. Open borders = security problem, open border= no control of immigration flow. Immigration beaurocracy=no way to keep up with immigrants seeking legal status.

The sum of all that? US government is not doing what it needs to to keep control. So.. my point.. that the biggoted attitude to treat immigrants (legal or otherwise) as criminals is simply racism. Yeah.. politically driven racism as well, but bottom line is that is not a new development.

[WARPIG]

If I remember my history lessons correctly, the intake of immigrants was very selective through the history of the US - no sick or disabled and from select nations only... If immigration official at Conney Island didn't deem you worthy - back you go on the ship and 6 more months on the high seas back to wherever you came from. Before you tell fairy tales about the land of freedom any immigrant could escape to - check the reality of the Migration to the New World.

And yes, I'm naturalized alien - there is a world of difference between being illegal and naturalized alien - once an alien files papers through the due process, that person is legal 24/7 until their case is heard. Rights to work, education, free healthcare, driver's license, travel, leave and re-enter the country - you name it. Legal Alien is just that - a person whom does not lapse from a system for a day. Lapse of legal status would negate naturalization process and would get a person deported, so I'm not sure what illegal immigration problem has to do with law abiding legal aliens like myself!

Perhaps your english lessons need to be reviewed. I didn't say anything about letting all comers get in and have no accountability for their status. Actually your history leaves a bit to be desired as well. Unless immigrants had to work as Carnies and freakshow Characters to gain entry to the US.. you might want to do a bit of research on Ellis Island before you bother to "educate" me. Actually, don't bother to educate me. By the way.. are you a naturalized citizen.. or a legal alien? Your contradiction of status is a bit confusing and doesn't lend much to your arguement. If all immigration came through Ellis Island...(not Coney Island) as my family did... then that would be a control at least. But, immigrants come over the border, via customs at our entry point airports.. or by raft. Lapse in legal status is obviously punitive. I think that punitive action should be monetary personally. But, if legal alien naturalized citizens such as yourself can keep your status current.. then all the better for you.

[StukaJr]

Vast majority of the illegal aliens from European countries or other nations that don't share a convenient land border with the US, have come into US by obtaining guest visas and then overstaying them - a little different than illegally violating the National border without documentation, record or the authorities being the wiser... At least an illegal immigrant from (insert the country here that's not Mexico) would have a record that they were interviewed in the consulate, HMS agent upon arrival at the airport and checked for contraband.

This whole immigration report was sparked by the announcement of a wall on the border with Mexico - which only affects immigrants from Mexico and any aliens whom choose to enter the US via its Southern Border.


Perhaps your english lessons need to be reviewed. I didn't say anything about letting all comers get in and have no accountability for their status. Actually your history leaves a bit to be desired as well. Unless immigrants had to work as Carnies and freakshow Characters to gain entry to the US.. you might want to do a bit of research on Ellis Island before you bother to "educate" me. Actually, don't bother to educate me. By the way.. are you a naturalized citizen.. or a legal alien? Your contradiction of status is a bit confusing and doesn't lend much to your arguement. If all immigration came through Ellis Island...(not Coney Island) as my family did... then that would be a control at least. But, immigrants come over the border, via customs at our entry point airports.. or by raft. Lapse in legal status is obviously punitive. I think that punitive action should be monetary personally. But, if legal alien naturalized citizens such as yourself can keep your status current.. then all the better for you.

I was simply stating that immigrants were turned around and sent back to their respective countries - mostly due to health reasons but also due to their race. It was rather rare since the privateers that shipped boatloads of immigrants knew the selection process and would not take on undesirables... Kind of like why there weren't many Chinese immigrants until the railroads were being built and there was need for hard manual labor.

Lapse in legal status = willful deportation... At least it is so for legal immigrants. An Alien has to be in the country legitimately to change status and is considered legal while the new case is being reviewed. A person can't be in the country on a visa that expired a year prior and then apply for a Legal Status. The only exceptions from the rule would be a marriage (but it's taken before Immigration Court) or an amnesty (last one was given in the late 80's and only select countries were included).


I'm a Resident Alien waiting out the mandatory time period before I can apply for a citizenship. I never called myself a citizen but I'm more naturalized than some US Born Citizens.

[Hollis]

The sum of all that? US government is not doing what it needs to to keep control. So.. my point.. that the biggoted attitude to treat immigrants (legal or otherwise) as criminals is simply racism. Yeah.. politically driven racism as well, but bottom line is that is not a new development.


I listen to a speaker long ago on the Mexican Illegal Immigrant issue. He pointed out Canada. The illegal Immigrants from Canada take those jobs that pay very well. The mix into USA society better to the point of being invisible. He asked what about them? Why should only Spanish speaking people with dark skin be pointed out.

No one answered, he said racism along with political opportunism.

[StukaJr]

There is no fairness in current immigration process and the first US Politician to claim otherwise will have a hard time countering allegations... The last two decades are ripe with examples of preferred treatment/expedited approvals to various groups and complete denial to others - and that's on the surface. Immigration is the last government agency where discrimination is just your way of business - our immigration Judge made a comment (on record) that our case would have been very different if we were from Acapulco.

I have an acquaintance whom lived and worked in the US for 5+years on H1 Visa, going back to Japan every year to re-new his work visa for the company sponsoring him. Then one year, he leaves for a couple of weeks to do the same due diligence and gets denied... His personal belongings, his work, his home - all unattainable and probably repossessed by his landlord as it's been more than a year now. Never mind the fact that he's deposited in the country where he neither has the job, connections and is now an outsider - and he was going to be absent for two weeks?. How about that for effing fair?

[Baboonass]

So.. my point.. that the biggoted attitude to treat immigrants (legal or otherwise) as criminals is simply racism. Yeah.. politically driven racism as well, but bottom line is that is not a new development.

How am I being racist?

FYI, it's not simply Mexican nationals flowing over the border.

There have been a recent influx of Arab and Russian speakers making there way over the Mexican and Canadian borders.

And who said anyone was treating legal immigrants as criminals?

Are you just making this up, or are you just loosing your argument and looking for a cheap win?

[Raptus_regaliter]

I am aware of this as well, that there has been an increase of Arab and Russian speakers coming across the US-Mexico border illegally, having entered Mexico with the specific intention of coming to the US. And who is to blame them? They are fully aware of how open the border is, and the news of possible amnesty is not lost on them either.

[Baboonass]

I am aware of this as well, that there has been an increase of Arab and Russian speakers coming across the US-Mexico border illegally, having entered Mexico with the specific intention of coming to the US. And who is to blame them? They are fully aware of how open the border is, and the news of possible amnesty is not lost on them either.

For families that are truely trying to make a better life for themselves and our nation? Not at all. I am in full support of their cause, as long as they are going through the process like every other natuarlized immigrant.


My point with the Russian (Chechnyan origen) and Arab speakers is not all of them are crossing into our country with good intentions. Not the majority mind you, but rather a small percentage of them.

I'm not saying there is any conceiveable means of stopping it, but not doing anything at all is open compliance.

Kind of like saying there isn't a way to stop every possible attack on a nuclear facility, so there is no need of security at all.

Warpig does bring up a good point though. Our enforcement of illegal immigration should not nessesarilly be with the illegals themselves, but rather at those will expolit them or knowingly employ illegals for cheap labor. Trying to live a better life, abit illegally, is a far lesser offence than knowingly exploiting and breaking the law for selfish means.

[WARPIG]

Treating even illegals like criminals is unwarranted. Yeah.. they've broken immigration laws.. but what is criminal about that? Do we treat traffic violators like criminals? Heck we barely treat our own criminals like criminals. Yet, immigrants that don't get legal status for whatever reason are treated like they are criminals. Thanks for the insight... I wasn't aware that the US had more than one border. Of course I realize that Mexicans are not the only immigration issue. But, that is what the focus is on. That is where the bulk of the racism comes from. It's not a black or white issue.

As far as a cheap win.. Put up a credible argument yourself before you disregard mine. I think I made my point.. But maybe I need to put it in different terms.

I'm not against tighter immigration reform. I am very much for it. But, simply casting out illegals won't fix the problem. Closing the border won't either. But, holding the government's feet to the fire and making them actually get control of the situation and stop blaming the immigrants is a damn good start. Immigrants are going to come here. That is what our country is about. That is where we came from. I can't blame anyone for wanting to be part of it. I can blame the government, the businesses, and the ignorant bigots who take advantage of them, blame them, and do nothing to fix the problem.

[Baboonass]

I don't think we are to far off track on thinking, but you lose me when you say I am "bigoted" or "racist" because I don't agree with a free pass.

I agree that we all, ( not just the government) need to take a responsiblitiy in curbing those who exploit illegals.

My Great Grandfather laid cobblestones in the streets of St Loius when he immigrated from Ireland, 2 other dies of mustard gas related illnesses from WW1.

Exploiting immagrants (legal or otherwise) is nothing new, nor is racism (although it was A LOT more open in the begning of the centry, check out Boston's old law books).

I think we are a lot on the same track.

[WARPIG]

I don't think we are to far off track on thinking, but you lose me when you say I am "bigoted" or "racist" because I don't agree with a free pass.

I agree that we all, ( not just the government) need to take a responsiblitiy in curbing those who exploit illegals.

My Great Grandfather laid cobblestones in the streets of St Loius when he immigrated from Ireland, 2 other dies of mustard gas related illnesses from WW1.

Exploiting immagrants (legal or otherwise) is nothing new, nor is racism (although it was A LOT more open in the begning of the centry, check out Boston's old law books).

I think we are a lot on the same track.

Keep in mind.. I didn't have you specifically in mind when I talk about the racist bias I see in the whole free pass arguement. I don't think a free pass should be given either. But, I don't think this criminal view of illegals is correct either. I think every immigrant should be granted a chance to make their case for residency and naturalization. But, there needs to be some form of merit system that gives some cases higher merit than others. Not just based on national need.. but the history of that immigrant since they've been here. Work permits and driver's licenses should have nothing to do with their status as immigrants. Not that I think illegals should be given a free pass, but that work permits and driver's licenses are a way to track immigrants.

[Hollis]

There is no fairness in current immigration process...............



I think that about sums it up. It is a political hot potato, to many power merchants are playing with the issue to make themselves look better to their power base. That will probably means what ever comes out of this with some kind of homorphadite of a answer. That will only have to be re-worked over and over again.

[VansRV]

Seeking Sense on Immigration

America cannot constructively absorb limitless numbers of poor, unskilled newcomers. Some ideas on how to break the stalemate.

Newsweek
By Robert J. Samuelson

May 2, 2007 - Our stalled immigration debate needs more common sense and more common decency. America's immigration system is unquestionably broken. It encourages illegality, frustrates assimilation and barely aids the economy—exactly the opposite of what it should do. Senators are striving to craft something more sensible. But they will fail unless both liberals and conservatives discard some of their cherished ambitions.

From liberals, we need more common sense. Their main position is to perpetuate a policy that guarantees rising U.S. poverty. Consider: From 1990 to 2005, the increase in the number of people living beneath the government's poverty line (now about $20,000 for a family of four) was 3,365,000; the increase in the number of Hispanics living below the poverty line over the same period was 3,362,000. Does anyone doubt that this coincidence stems mostly from immigration?
True, much of it was illegal. But many liberals—along with the Bush administration and business groups—favor a sizable program of "guest workers." In effect, the annual flow of illegal immigrants would become an annual flow of guest workers. But they'd still be poor; and they'd also be promised a path to U.S. citizenship. In other words, they wouldn't be "guests."
Liberals have embraced an unholy alliance with business in which business gets most of the gains and immigration's costs are thrown onto the public sector. The justification is an alleged shortage of unskilled workers. That's a fiction. In March, the unemployment rate for college graduates was 1.8 percent; for the 13 million workers without a high-school diploma, it was 7 percent.
Tight labor markets raise wages. Admitting more poor, low-skilled Latino workers hurts Latinos already here by depressing their wages. It's anti-Hispanic and anti-assimilation. Almost certainly, it also hurts the wages of other low-skilled Americans. Businesses grasp this—hence their support for guest workers—even if some academic economists do not. Why many liberals don't is a puzzle.

There are further consequences. Low-paid workers often don't cover the cost of their social services with taxes. Schools and hospitals are burdened. Since 1990, about 60 percent of the increase in those without health insurance has occurred among Hispanics. A policy that favors poor immigrants will strain social services and raise taxes. In the mid-1990s, immigrant families cost native households an average of $1,200 in extra taxes in California. If immigration of the poor continues, this effect will spread.

From conservatives, we need more common decency. A favorite rallying cry is "no amnesty." Today's estimated 12 million illegal immigrants, it's said, shouldn't receive legal status—let alone citizenship. Don't reward criminality. This sounds principled but ignores sensible conservative precepts.
One is responsibility. All of us are morally complicit in the flood of illegal immigrants. Our government encouraged it through loose border controls and lax oversight of employer hiring. A second precept is practicality. Hardly anyone thinks the 12 million can be rounded up and sent home. To pretend otherwise is dishonest, ordains failure and makes government seem inept. It also condones disrespect for the law. By denying legal status to long-standing residents, we perpetuate the system's illegality.
Finally, there's family and humanity. About two thirds of the children of illegal immigrants were born here and are U.S. citizens, reports demographer Jeff Passel of the Pew Hispanic Center. A futile campaign to remove many longtime illegal immigrants would splinter families. Some children would remain here; others—American citizens—would have their lives shattered by their own government.
To oversimplify only slightly: Liberals (and the Bush administration) often pander to Hispanic voters; conservatives often pander to anti-Hispanic prejudice. Our immigration system should do neither. It should control our borders and create a reliable worker-verification system for businesses. Violators should be punished severely. Long-standing illegal immigrants who meet legislated standards of good behavior and community ties should receive legal status—"amnesty," though by a less provocative label. There should be no major "guest worker" program. Instead, permanent-residency visas—leading to citizenship—should favor skilled over low-skilled workers.
Even with much goodwill, it's unclear that we can create this sort of system. Practical problems abound. Can we really control our borders? But without a consensus of what we're trying to do—and why—the chances of success are negligible. America has a wonderful capacity to assimilate newcomers, but it cannot constructively absorb limitless numbers of poor, unskilled newcomers. The point of favoring highly skilled immigrants is to promote assimilation, bolster the economy and minimize the social and cultural conflicts of immigration.
If the senators negotiating these hard issues fashion a compromise simply by mixing items from each side's agenda—agendas that are mainly opposed—the resulting accommodation will disappoint both and ensure that immigration looms ever larger as an economic and political tinderbox.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18437134/site/newsweek/

Good balanced article.

[StukaJr]

Treating even illegals like criminals is unwarranted. Yeah.. they've broken immigration laws.. but what is criminal about that?


Current immigration laws are un-enforceable... Say a person is in the US illegally and after a due process that individual is deported. Willful deportation prohibits entry into the US for 2-5 years (plus certain stigma at the consulate), forceful deportation prohibits entry into the US for 10 years and sometimes a lifetime prohibition. The same person enters US 6 months later by their choice of the porous border with ease - and nothing bothers you in that?

I was under impression that breaking laws constituted a criminal action...

[Laworkerbee]

I was under impression that breaking laws constituted a criminal action...

Apparently that only applies to some of us my friend, specifically the ones that bother to follow the laws :roll:

[Baboonass]

I think every immigrant should be granted a chance to make their case for residency and naturalization. But, there needs to be some form of merit system that gives some cases higher merit than others.



LOL, now you are talking my language.


If I were king, you would earn your citizenship. No one is immediatly granted citizenship by birth. You serve the country for a minum of 2 years. Doesn't have to be a combat role, or even military, but some sort of service as defined by the government.

Anyone who didn't serve would be a civilian.

Civilians can't vote, own firearms, nor are they alloted the same rights as citizens.

Yeh yeh, I know, "Starship Troopers".

I aped it because I think it's a capitol idea.

[-peacemaker-]

Current immigration laws are un-enforceable... Say a person is in the US illegally and after a due process that individual is deported. Willful deportation prohibits entry into the US for 2-5 years (plus certain stigma at the consulate), forceful deportation prohibits entry into the US for 10 years and sometimes a lifetime prohibition. The same person enters US 6 months later by their choice of the porous border with ease - and nothing bothers you in that?

I was under impression that breaking laws constituted a criminal action...

Yes, breaking a law makes you a criminal. The problem is in what to do with these so called "criminals". An illegal alien is a person who crossed the border illegally, thus committing a crime. So why not reform the laws that are on the books so that these people can "legally" acquit for their crime of coming and being in the US illegally? Some argue: "that's not fair to the legal immigrants" to this I say, if you want to speak about justice and being fair, consider the countless children born to illegal immigrants, who by law are legal US citizens, how is it fair to them if their parents are deported?

A person who speeds and gets caught is also a criminal, and usually must pay a fine in order to acquit himself for the crime committed.

In the late 1980's when the Simpson-Mazzoli Act(amnesty) was signed into law by President Reagan, many "illegal aliens" were given a chance to become legal residents and eventually become legal US citizens. There were many requirements that had to be fulfilled, including paying a hefty fine for having come into the US illegally.

Some equate illegal immigrants to a criminal who has committed such crimes as stealing, murder, and rape. This, I believe, is morally wrong, and it would be equally wrong to equate a person who has committed the crime of speeding to a person who has raped, stolen, and murdered.

[StukaJr]

Some argue: "that's not fair to the legal immigrants" to this I say, if you want to speak about justice and being fair, consider the countless children born to illegal immigrants, who by law are legal US citizens, how is it fair to them if their parents are deported?


That's exactly what pisses me off - but from the different side of the debate! Parent of a US born child are automatically approved for naturalization! Some countries set up travel packages timed in the exact manner that a tourist travels to the US and times their pregnancy to give birth while on the US soil! All it takes is "do it yourself lawyer", few hundred bucks in fees and years to process. However, the moment the INS receives the paperwork - these parents are legal in the eyes of the law - they can apply for work permit every year, have normal jobs, get driver's licenses and not get deported! Of course, these people don't do any of that and raise a stink when they get deported - btw, these parents that get deported are still being processed and INS basically does all the leg work for these people... It's directly counterproductive to the spirit of immigration!

I was personally present at a hearing of an individual whom was being deported for weapon charges and assault on the Police officer - deportation was overturned because he had 2 US Born children. Was he a criminal? Yes. Did he get deported? No.



A person who speeds and gets caught is also a criminal, and usually must pay a fine in order to acquit himself for the crime committed.


Not really, you pay the fine not to appear in court and not to contest allegations of the arresting officer. An illegal alien in the US can take INS to Court and then appeal their case to higher authorities, just like you can fight a citation if you deem yourself innocent...

However, you have a license to operate a motor vehicles - that's the one difference that makes illegal immigration not like a traffic violation. Papeles!




Some equate illegal immigrants to a criminal who has committed such crimes as stealing, murder, and rape. This, I believe, is morally wrong, and it would be equally wrong to equate a person who has committed the crime of speeding to a person who has raped, stolen, and murdered.

I don't think anybody on this board has ever made that statement nor do I believe that anybody made such comparisons without being ridiculed for it... That is some rather fringe outlook!

In CA, if one gets caught driving without a license, that individual has the car taken away, pays fines and gets probation period on future driving privileges - I believe that's more true of illegal immigrant's crime, since both acts are unlicensed p-) However, that's like picking peanuts out of poop. Illegal Immigrants come with their own penal code, justice and appellate process and if found guilty - its own punishment... I don't see the reason why that concept is so hard to grasp! Charge + process + Immigration Court + Appeal = may equal deportation... What else do people want? Automatic "Yes" on every application???

I usually play that world's smallest violin of "I'm not committing any crime" - until I'm shown a penal code, that is p-)

[WARPIG]

Current immigration laws are un-enforceable... Say a person is in the US illegally and after a due process that individual is deported. Willful deportation prohibits entry into the US for 2-5 years (plus certain stigma at the consulate), forceful deportation prohibits entry into the US for 10 years and sometimes a lifetime prohibition. The same person enters US 6 months later by their choice of the porous border with ease - and nothing bothers you in that?

I was under impression that breaking laws constituted a criminal action...
Pay attention to the conversation at hand. I've mentioned my position on the broken immigration system and the lack of border control.

I've also talked about how immigrants legal or otherwise are treated like criminals. Did illegals commit crime or break the law? There IS a subtle difference. For instance, when you drive 10 mph over the speed limit on the way to work tomorrow.. are you a criminal..or did you simply just break the law? Your impression was a bit off. If simply breaking the law is justification for "criminal action" I think you mean punitive action.. then you ar partially right in your assumption. A broken law can mean punitive action by a court of law that is actioned monetarily. It may become a prosecutable break in the law if severe enough. Again... if your focus is on getting rid of the people immigrating illegally, you might want to check your integrity and find a less bigoted view of things. If your focus is on getting rid of the problem over all so that the system takes care of the people.. then we might actually find a solution.

[mudbunny]

LOL, now you are talking my language.


If I were king, you would earn your citizenship. No one is immediatly granted citizenship by birth. You serve the country for a minum of 2 years. Doesn't have to be a combat role, or even military, but some sort of service as defined by the government.

Anyone who didn't serve would be a civilian.

Civilians can't vote, own firearms, nor are they alloted the same rights as citizens.

Yeh yeh, I know, "Starship Troopers".

I aped it because I think it's a capitol idea.

Sounds like Sparta to me.

[Ordie]

Sounds like Sparta to me.

Plato's Republic to be exact.

[Baboonass]

Plato's Republic to be exact.



THIS IS PLATOOOOOO"S REPUBLICCCCCC!!!!!!!


Doesn't have the same ring to it.

[Indiana Jones]

THIS IS PLATOOOOOO"S REPUBLICCCCCC!!!!!!!


Doesn't have the same ring to it.
You see, Plato in his infinite wisdom and magnanimity did provide an alternative:
THIS IS ATHENS!!!!!
Sounds better. Look up Timaios/Kritias for the contraposition of ancient Athens and Atlantis and those dialogues relation to the Politeia. You will feel much more wise immediately afterwards.

[Splcst659]

Yo ppl i dont have anything bad for imigration but these thing is getting out of control! every 1 wants to move in Europea or in USA and they dont care will it be leagaly or illegaly they just care to reach the borders of those Countries! the point is that to many ppl is not so good before imigration period there were not so many thiefs and not so many killers like now i dont blame these ppl but we need to thing about some thing called FUTURE lets dont turn our backs to some problems that for now are small but in 20-50y
Dont be
░████░█████░█░░█░████░█░███░░
░█░░░░░░█░░░█░░█░█░░█░█░█░░█░
░████░░░█░░░█░░█░████░█░█░░█░
░░░░█░░░█░░░█░░█░█░░░░█░█░░█░
░████░░░█░░░████░█░░░░█░███░░ Thing your Kids Future!

(These is not rasist or smthing like that)

[Ordie]

You see, Plato in his infinite wisdom and magnanimity did provide an alternative:
THIS IS ATHENS!!!!!
Sounds better. Look up Timaios/Kritias for the contraposition of ancient Athens and Atlantis and those dialogues relation to the Politeia. You will feel much more wise immediately afterwards.

There was a bath house in San Francisco called Plato's Club.

[Baboonass]

There was a bath house in San Francisco called Plato's Club.

Plato shrimp.

[foxtrot023]

Plato's Republic to be exact.

or even Republican Rome