Negociating with terrorists?

[WanderingNomad]

I'm just curious how you view this. At first Bush said he wouldn't negociate with terrorists, then the attack on Fallujah was halted, there were negociations, now the Marines have retreated and an Saddam general (wearing his OLD uniform!!) is in charge of Fallujah. Isn't that a contradiction?

Perhaps not if one considers the guys in Fallujah to be insurgents not terrorists (a subtle but decisive difference). But I don't think that would be in Bush's sense.

ps. Yes, I was/am against the war but I don't want to simpy flame here. I'm just interested in how this whole Fallujah is not flip-flopping of Bush?

[WanderingNomad]

anyone?

[henksmoeder]

I think that it isn't foolish what they (USA) are doing. Not negotiating with these people would have the consequence that the atmosphere would polarize even further. For a 'simple insurgent', an Iraqi in charge PERHAPS could be more comfortable for them than 'crusaders' (the way they see them) in charge.

And by the way. Not every insurgent is a terrorist. As long as civilians aren't targeted then they aren't terrorist (call them what you want, but according to most definitions the goal of a terrorist is to kill as many civies as possible). So negotiating with these guys isn't a sign of weakness or anything, it may help to prevent more casualties and isn't that in the end what we all want?

[ExtraT]

Perhapse it's an attempt to commit more forces to Najaf. After all, Sadr's gang is a far more dangerous enemy than the disgruntled sunnis in Fallujah.

It may prove to be a very good move.

[SeanAshi]

I'm just curious how you view this. At first Bush said he wouldn't negociate with terrorists, then the attack on Fallujah was halted, there were negociations, now the Marines have retreated and an Saddam general (wearing his OLD uniform!!) is in charge of Fallujah. Isn't that a contradiction?
We are ****ed if we do and we are ****ed if we don't, eventually power will be handed over to the Iraqis, and thats is the deal in Fallujah, if this Iraqi General turns out to be a bad guy, he can be taken out/removed.

[WanderingNomad]

Perhapse it's an attempt to commit more forces to Najaf. After all, Sadr's gang is a far more dangerous enemy than the disgruntled sunnis in Fallujah.

It may prove to be a very good move.

true, it may be.

but so negotiating with terrorists is an option after all?

[HELEX]

Simple: They arent negotiating with Terrorists but with resistance Groups and freedom fighters.
This "Terrorists" thing is some kind of obsession with some Americans.... :cantbeli:

[Beowulf]

This "Terrorists" thing is some kind of obsession with some Americans.... :cantbeli:


yeah...wonder why?

[HELEX]

This "Terrorists" thing is some kind of obsession with some Americans.... :cantbeli:


yeah...wonder why?

Because they get it hammered into their minds by the propaganda ministry?

There was no Al Quaida link to Iraq..... :roll:

[Fioraon]

This "Terrorists" thing is some kind of obsession with some Americans.... :cantbeli:


yeah...wonder why?

Because they get it hammered into their minds by the propaganda ministry?

There was no Al Quaida link to Iraq..... :roll:

US has a propaganda ministry? Terrorists is a word far over used and is to general to stick to anyone without sticking it to everyone. I think its poor wording to label everyone who has issues with the West as terrorists.

[rokus2595]

Perhaps not if one considers the guys in Fallujah to be insurgents not terrorists (a subtle but decisive difference). But I don't think that would be in Bush's sense.
Precisely. Those in falluja are not terrorists or foreign fighters, like US propaganda machine is suggesting, but Iraqi civilians that have taken up weapons against the US occupiers. That's why i believe the US decided not to go into the city: to reoccupy the city would have meant a bloodbath, and that would have only infurated even more iraqis, and the americans realized this.

Notice how the the old general who served under Saddam was welcome with open arms in Falluja?? that tells me it is the Americans they don't want.

[Uncle Sam]

Because they get it hammered into their minds by the propaganda ministry?

The U.S. has a "propaganda" Ministry......And only HELEX knows about it

**shhhh don't tell anyone**

[HELEX]

Because they get it hammered into their minds by the propaganda ministry?

The U.S. has a "propaganda" Ministry......And only HELEX knows about it

**shhhh don't tell anyone**

So what else is the ministry for "Strategic Information"? :cantbeli:

Can you enlighten me? :lol:

[Fioraon]

Notice how the the old general who served under Saddam was welcome with open arms in Falluja?? that tells me it is the Americans they don't want.

Have you been living in a hole for the past 12 months? Of course they dont want Americans in Falluja. Iraqi's want to be Iraqi, and run Iraq by Iraqi's for Iraqi's. But of course the occupation is an evil 'have to.' Whats your point? They just want to get their lives back and move forward... And so do Americans, but everyone has to do their part.

[Fioraon]

Double post :D

[Fioraon]

Because they get it hammered into their minds by the propaganda ministry?

The U.S. has a "propaganda" Ministry......And only HELEX knows about it

**shhhh don't tell anyone**

So what else is the ministry for "Strategic Information"? :cantbeli:

Can you enlighten me? :lol:

Never heard of it so maybe you can enlighten me...

[HELEX]

Because they get it hammered into their minds by the propaganda ministry?

The U.S. has a "propaganda" Ministry......And only HELEX knows about it

**shhhh don't tell anyone**

So what else is the ministry for "Strategic Information"? :cantbeli:

Can you enlighten me? :lol:

Never heard of it so maybe you can enlighten me...

http://www.propagandacritic.com/articles/examples.osi.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/US/02/19/gen.strategic.influence/

[Fioraon]

Thanks for the link

[TheBlackHand]

This Fallujah failure has cost GW my vote. The only real reason I planned on voting for the guy was because I believed he wouldn't half-ass the fight. Any fight. Now he's snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. The Marines are in retreat?! Hell, if we're going to back off now we might as well back all the way off. If we can give an Iraqi general his old army back why not give an Iraqi dictator his old country back? F*ck it. Hello Vietnam. Ironically, Kerry's '71 comment is making sense again. Who want's to be the last guy to die for a mistake?

[rokus2595]

Of course they dont want Americans in Falluja. Iraqi's want to be Iraqi, and run Iraq by Iraqi's for Iraqi's. But of course the occupation is an evil 'have to.'
An evil 'have to'?? have to for what? to bring democracy to iraq? let them have elections right now, yet the Americans don't want that because the iraqis might chose a leader who could possibly ask them to leave. But the americans aren't going anywhere. So it isn't about 'democracy'. So again, why is it an evil 'have to'?


They just want to get their lives back and move forward... And so do Americans, but everyone has to do their part. ? this is filler. You really didn't say anything there

[Fioraon]

Of course they dont want Americans in Falluja. Iraqi's want to be Iraqi, and run Iraq by Iraqi's for Iraqi's. But of course the occupation is an evil 'have to.'
An evil 'have to'?? have to for what? to bring democracy to iraq? let them have elections right now, yet the Americans don't want that because the iraqis might chose a leader who could possibly ask them to leave. But the americans aren't going anywhere. So it isn't about 'democracy'. So again, why is it an evil 'have to'?


They just want to get their lives back and move forward... And so do Americans, but everyone has to do their part. ? this is filler. You really didn't say anything there

Iraq would become a vacum of power if international forces left now. It is a must to stay in Iraq and play the bad cop until the Iraqi's side with the good cop. It has only been a little over a year, it took the Russians five years to wash out facism and make good little German Activists out of Nazi's. I thinik you are asking for to much in to little of a time frame. Little unrealistic if you ask me.

[Uncle Sam]

http://www.propagandacritic.com/articles/examples.osi.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/US/02/19/gen.strategic.influence/

Oh yeah, HELEX and CNN... rofl

[rokus2595]

Hell, if we're going to back off now we might as well back all the way off. If we can give an Iraqi general his old army back why not give an Iraqi dictator his old country back? F*ck it. Hello Vietnam. Ironically, Kerry's '71 comment is making sense again. Who want's to be the last guy to die for a mistake?

You just hit the nail right on the head. The whole iraqi endeavor is a fiasco, and the sad part is that no one is being accountable, and in the mean time there are already hundreds of Americans and thousands of Iraqis who have already lost their lives.

[HELEX]

http://www.propagandacritic.com/articles/examples.osi.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/US/02/19/gen.strategic.influence/

Oh yeah, HELEX and CNN... rofl

Oh yeah, "Uncle Sam's Pissed !" and.... ...nothing.... again? :lol:

[rokus2595]

Iraq would become a vacum of power if international forces left now. I disagree with you here Fioraon. Who is saying this? the Americans or the Iraqis? are the iraqis saying to the americans please don't leave because once you leave we wouldn't know how to chose a leader among us? or are the americans justifying occupying Iraq under that pretext (and many others)?


It is a must to stay in Iraq and play the bad cop until the Iraqi's side with the good cop.why?? sure, the Americans have created a big mess in Iraq, and now they can't leave it like that right? fix it then; how? allow the iraqis to have elections, and that would mean that America, as the occupying power in iraq who is supposedly trying to built a 'democratic' iraq, would respect the will of the iraqi people even if that means not wanting the americans there. But that isn't happening exactly for that reason.

[Fotch]

Iraq would become a vacum of power if international forces left now. I disagree with you here Fioraon. Who is saying this? the Americans or the Iraqis? are the iraqis saying to the americans please don't leave because once you leave we wouldn't know how to chose a leader among us? or are the americans justifying occupying Iraq under that pretext (and many others)?


It is a must to stay in Iraq and play the bad cop until the Iraqi's side with the good cop.why?? sure, the Americans have created a big mess in Iraq, and now they can't leave it like that right? fix it then; how? allow the iraqis to have elections, and that would mean that America, as the occupying power in iraq who is supposedly trying to built a 'democratic' iraq, would respect the will of the iraqi people even if that means not wanting the americans there. But that isn't happening exactly for that reason.

If the coalition left Iraq, Iraq would be in a civil war within the month. Kurd vs Sunni vs Shai...and likely Iran would enter on Shai side (overtly or covertly). The last thing the Shai want to see is Iraq back in the hands of the Sunni minority. Part of me would love to see that. Let them grind themselves back to the stone age...apparently the US/UK decision makers don't have the balls to do what is really needed to bring the country back under control. But that is what happens when you run a war from an office 20000 miles away...and let the international press convince you of your 'best course of action'. If the US doesn't commit to breaking the country...destroying any and all resistance...moving in the 500K troops need to do the job for two-three-five years it will take to do what is needed...they will leave Iraq with their tail between their legs...again. I was LBJ or Nixon wasn't president when I went to sleep 6 months ago...but maybe I am wrong....