Right in: Mortar Attack Kills Six U.S. Servicemen in Iraq

[WanderingNomad]

http://www.*******.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5009147&section=news

[Uninen]

CAMP FALLUJA, Iraq (*******) - A mortar attack killed six U.S. servicemen in western Iraq Sunday, Marine Major T.V. Johnson said.

He told reporters the attack was on a military base two hours drive from Falluja, the rebellious city 30 miles west of Baghdad, but would give no further details.

© ******* 2004. All Rights Reserved.

:|

[Trident-za]

Not good - this month doesn't look like it's going to be better than April :(

[mustamato]

Not the first time mortars have been used succesfully by the insurgents in Iraq.
Wasn´t Pat Tillmann in Stan killed by mortar fire as well? It seems to be a fine
guerilla weapon. I don´t know exactly which type they used, but mortars are quite
similar due to their basic construction. In example this one:

http://www.soldf.com/images/s_grk84_4.jpg
... can be carried by it´s squad over fairly long distances. The mortar
has a weight of 48 kg and it can be split up in three burdens, with a weight of 20, 16 and 12 kg

Then there are three additional people in an ordinary crew carrying ammo. And give the
conscription system in Iraq before the occupation there are plenty of people that can use
them as well, as can be seen by events like this.

[LordHalbert]

It's a good weapon for guerillas in Iraq because of the US rules of engagement.

Even though the US has counter battery radar that could return fire in seconds, they can not return fire because of strict rules that prohibit their use in habitated area.

If it wasn't for these "rules", these mortars would be destroyed almost instantly.

Now, the US should be doing better about locating the Mortar and destroying it using other methods. UAVs could locate the source and even destroy it - the armed Predator or have an Apache or other suitable platform to destroy it once its located.

[WanderingNomad]

I guess that's why urban warfare is such a pain in the *ss if you're from a democratic country with rules of engagement. You can't just level everything.

[mustamato]

It's a good weapon for guerillas in Iraq because of the US rules of engagement.

Even though the US has counter battery radar that could return fire in seconds, they can not do so because of strict rules that prohibit their use in habitated area.

If it wasn't for these "rules", these mortar batteries would be destroyed almost instantly.

I doubt that US has "counter battery radars" exactly everywhere. And a trained crew
(which is a must to be able to operate these weapons and make the grenades
land right on the enemy) realizes that US might have these things, and leaves the
place after firing a couple of rounds. Counter battery fire is not exactly something
new, mortar and artillery crews in every country trains to leave the place quickly
and redeploy in some other place, and they have done so for decades.

And, "return fire in matter of seconds", oh please wake up. You don´t think they
would return fire if they knew the exact place where they were firing from?
Also, I don´t know where this "Camp Fallujah" is, but since it was a two-hour drive
from Fallujah I guess it´s in the middle of a desert. What says that those firing
the mortars were hiding among civilians? Where did you read that?

[LordHalbert]

I don't really know exactly how long it takes a trained crew to return fire on a mortar position but it seems like once the radar finds the position of the offending mortar, the crew merely has to dial in the position and drop a mortar in - seems simple to me.

Perhaps, somebody with more knowledge or first hand experience would like to reply?

[Argyll]

The definition of a Mortar also has to be taken into consideration.
Most of the mortars employed by the insurgents are not the ones we associate with,they are the same type used by the PIRA ,which is basically a pipe with a charge inside,usually set to some sort of timer,they are hastily made,and are very errant as well,this incident sounds like they got lucky.
Every night in Baghdad there are these types of Indirect Fire attacks,some hit ,some miss ,some detonate some don't.

Mustamoto,
Seeing as your using the same reasoning,then the insurgents would need to have an MFC,hitting the target 1st time takes an incredible amount of information,usually up to 8 fig co-ordinates,maybe even 10,without bracketing the target 1st.
Therefore the conclusion drawn would be that this attack was NOT carried out by Insurgents but by a highly proffesional Mortar team?Which to be honest is a possibility,but then again they've been pretty **** up untill now.
However I'm more inclined to go with an IED type launcher that got lucky,meaning the insurgents planted the weapon set it and bugged out.

[FinnishMF]

I don't really know exactly how long it takes a trained crew to return fire on a mortar position but it seems like once the radar finds the position of the offending mortar, the crew merely has to dial in the position and drop a mortar in - seems simple to me.

Perhaps, somebody with more knowledge or first hand experience would like to reply?
Now you are talking to the artillery man :)

If those mortar using fighters can expect counter battery fire, they can just shoot couple of times and then change their position.
And probably they will fire from a roof of hospital for example :roll:

[mustamato]

Therefore the conclusion drawn would be that this attack was NOT carried out by Insurgents but by a highly proffesional Mortar team?

Why does one thing exclude the other? Can´t some insurgents be trained mortar
operators. They had a 3 year mandatory conscription in Iraq. If someone was
assigned to be a mortar operator during those 3 years, he should know quite well
how to use the thing even today.

[Argyll]

Musty I said it was a possibility,they were a trained crew,but highly unlikely,you need an MFC in a forward position to be able to get the correct co-ordinates,unless the position was a marked DF position.

99% of these types of IF are from Improvised devices,not the old baseplate and tube the poor sods in the Mortar Platoon had to carry in their kit.

1st round hit.....without bracketing......?and I also doubt the Iraqi's were trained to the standards of most Western Armies,even though they were conscripts........just a general observation.

Direction Finders are pretty useless in Built Up areas,also consider it was dusk when the attack took place,in NI we carried out Baseplate Patrols around this time.

We had an RPG round hit outside our villa fired from across the Tigris....some 400 m away,it failed to detonate,but it was used in the Indirect Fire mode.........fire and hope.

I'm pretty comfortable that this was not a Mortar as per your pic,but more of an IED type..........minimising the risk of the insurgents being caught in the act/area

[FDF_Hemppis]

Anyone know how big the area those rounds impacted was?

If those insurgents had military training, I wouldn't be surprised that they managed to hit something... Most likely, they've recced the "target" several times, and then fired from a location that was set up earlier...

Who knows, maybe they had the mortar 5kms away, and a single guy directing it, making it somewhat easy to away safely?

Naah, I'm just guessing here...

[ExtraT]

It's a good weapon for guerillas in Iraq because of the US rules of engagement.

Even though the US has counter battery radar that could return fire in seconds, they can not return fire because of strict rules that prohibit their use in habitated area.

If it wasn't for these "rules", these mortars would be destroyed almost instantly.

Welcome to Lebanon, late 1990s :(

We had exactly the same problem there: Hizbullah (and the others) used 120mm mortars on our outposts there almost daily. And we had no way of responding, because they would shoot from villages.

A typical arab strategy - taking their own civilian population as hostages.

[obd]

Hey Argyl I have a question for you, as Im not actually in Iraq and you are.......It seems to me that there are more than enough mortars to go around for the insurgency to use them... In the case of PIRA they face extreme but not impossible difficulty getting mortar tubes, base plates, sites, etc into thier hands but from the information I have recieved from Army,Marine, etc reports released to public from Iraq, Iraqi insurgents have more than enough real deal mortars in Iraq and according to a recent Army report there are still so many thousands of significant weapons piles around that they cannot guard all of them and they are still in the process of destroying them which takes time to do it safely especially when they need to be removed from civilian areas first.............Your point about the lack of trained crews seems to make sense...........Do you think maybe instead of it being the case of untrained crews firing homemade mortars it is instead just a case of untrained crew firing real deal mortars?? I know its sorta trivial and ****
but.........................................

Also, there have DEFINATELY been examples of very well trained mortar attacks..with observers.....mostly on US bases.... Troops reported being first bracketed and then having the rounds walked across thier positions.....clearly those cases were of trained men and according to army reports the insurgents are constantly trying to train up men to use them properly as they consider them more usefull than RPG for base attacks........

Now, maybe it is the case that YOU as a PMC are facing these sorts attacks as you describe them......or maybe, more likely, there are all kinds of types of attacks going on and the Iraqi's are using every means possible to strike targets....... I dont know man, your on the ground so I trust your opinion but your also somewhat "blinded" by the fact that you are on the ground (fog of war and such). At the same time you are also privy to information that I, as an outside observer. am not privy to.... Kinda interesting isnt it hehehe.........although you have net access so maybe thats not true in your case........

[WanderingNomad]

We had exactly the same problem there: Hizbullah (and the others) used 120mm mortars on our outposts there almost daily. And we had no way of responding, because they would shoot from villages.

A typical arab strategy - taking their own civilian population as hostages.

I don't want to justify their actions, but isn't that the only 'weapon' they've got? Affronting the US in open battle would be suicide!

They know they've inferior firepower but they too know that the US can't, because of their rules of engagement etc, attack civilian positions.

So though it's morally ambiguous, it isn't tactically dumb. And it depends on the side you're on in a conflict. Just imagine yourself in that situation, but as an insurgent.

(edited for spelling mistakes)

[American Patriot]

RIP

[SiFiOn]

Here a short movie that goes with the storie, nothing special but again I see cheering cowards....:
http://*******.feedroom.com/ifr_main.jsp?st=1083528280687&rf=bm&mp=WMP&wmp=1&rm=1&cpf=false&fr=042904_023342_872380xfc35141188xwf61&rdm=35576.6775871415

[Argyll]

Hey Argyl I have a question for you, as Im not actually in Iraq and you are.......It seems to me that there are more than enough mortars to go around for the insurgency to use them... In the case of PIRA they face extreme but not impossible difficulty getting mortar tubes, base plates, sites, etc into thier hands but from the information I have recieved from Army,Marine, etc reports released to public from Iraq, Iraqi insurgents have more than enough real deal mortars in Iraq and according to a recent Army report there are still so many thousands of significant weapons piles around that they cannot guard all of them and they are still in the process of destroying them which takes time to do it safely especially when they need to be removed from civilian areas first.............Your point about the lack of trained crews seems to make sense...........Do you think maybe instead of it being the case of untrained crews firing homemade mortars it is instead just a case of untrained crew firing real deal mortars?? I know its sorta trivial and ****
but.........................................

Also, there have DEFINATELY been examples of very well trained mortar attacks..with observers.....mostly on US bases.... Troops reported being first bracketed and then having the rounds walked across thier positions.....clearly those cases were of trained men and according to army reports the insurgents are constantly trying to train up men to use them properly as they consider them more usefull than RPG for base attacks........

Can you provide some of these reports,training needs open ground and ranges targets etc,where do you think they would be able to carry out such drills,as a mortar team are specialists ......not run of the mill troops

Now, maybe it is the case that YOU as a PMC are facing these sorts attacks as you describe them......or maybe, more likely, there are all kinds of types of attacks going on and the Iraqi's are using every means possible to strike targets....... I dont know man, your on the ground so I trust your opinion but your also somewhat "blinded" by the fact that you are on the ground (fog of war and such). At the same time you are also privy to information that I, as an outside observer. am not privy to.... Kinda interesting isnt it hehehe.........although you have net access so maybe thats not true in your case........

Maybe it's the daily intelligence briefs we recieve from a certain agency amongst others that is causing my blindness?Maybe it's the HUMINT provided by some mutual friends in theatre,we get almost daily that is making me blind,being an operator(yes that is what my contract states) has nothing do do with what goes on inside and outside the green zone,perhaps it's the years of service and the years of facing the same tactics employed that is making me so blind?and lastly I'm home on leave at the moment,back in Scotland for a month

[ExtraT]

So though it's morally ambiguous, it isn't tactically dumb. And it depends on the side you're on in a conflict. Just imagine yourself in that situation, but as an insurgent.


Of course it's tactically sound - they found a weak spot in the US's ROE, and are now exploiting it, rendering US's superiority useless.
There is only one thing that they US can do in this situation - they must return fire, no matter where it comes from. If they don't - it will become only worse in the future. Under the rules of war, such action wouldn't even be be illigal - civilians in situations like that are not considered civilians anymore.

[LordHalbert]

I agree, the US should return fire ASAP no matter where the mortar came from.

[American Patriot]

Ok on the ******* video it showed some Iraqis talking gibberish about Allah as they were filming insurgent illumination rounds.

That is taking it too far and I don't think CENTCOM is going to let our guys sit on their fooking hands.


Nice to see Masturbato always opining on how the terrorists are 'freedom fighters'.

[Argyll]

That video is from last week.
I remeber our Int guy telling us the Insurgents set up a baseplate thinking they were firing HE rounds only to dicover they dropped 3-4 illum rounds in,soon as they were Lit up the legged it

[LordHalbert]

Something must be done about these mortars.

IEDs kill only one or two soldiers per attack (if they are successful - not detected and work as intended)

But mortars kill 5 or 6 soldiers per attack when they work as intended.

There was a similar attack some time ago that killed as many.

A kill ratio of 0/6 (no loss to enemy) is not acceptable - at least make it 1/1 :cantbeli:

[FDF_Hemppis]

That video is from last week.
I remeber our Int guy telling us the Insurgents set up a baseplate thinking they were firing HE rounds only to dicover they dropped 3-4 illum rounds in,soon as they were Lit up the legged it

Hehe, how fcuking dumb you can be, if can't see the difference between a frag and an illumination round? rofl rofl

[Trident-za]

There is only one thing that they US can do in this situation - they must return fire, no matter where it comes from. If they don't - it will become only worse in the future. Under the rules of war, such action wouldn't even be be illigal - civilians in situations like that are not considered civilians anymore.

So you reckon the guys in the military over there are too dumb to have thought of this response? Of course they've considered it... and apparently rejected it for being stupid. Ever stop to think of why the leadergroup in the US military seem to make choices which don't coincide with your opinions?

[mustamato]

@ Argyll

The article says mortar attack. What do you mean with IED in this case? Some
of those home-made Katyusha rocket systems? If we now speculate in that it was
a conventional light mortar with a trained crew. I don´t find it too impossible
that they could hit with the first round. The Finnish artillery usually did that during ww2
because of the techniques developed by Vilhelm Petter Nenonen (it was amongst
else he who introduced that famous circle, or dish that forward controllers use). It
was introduced in hm, 1942 I think, or maybe 1943. But Finnish artillery hit right
on with their first rounds already before that. Because of mathematic formulas
that he and his boys developed. Yes the Iraqi army under Saddam wasn´t exactly
the most modern around, but it would surprise me if they didn´t even know stuff
that the Finns knew back in the 1930´s.

About what is needed when calculating where to hit is even found on the Internet
at this Swedish artillery regiment website. And I´m quite sure that there are
a lot of instructional handbooks out there in Arabic on how to use a mortar and
to hit where intended. Just as an example (I´m not going to translate it all, too
late, too lazy, too dfficult). I don´t understand much, but then again I´m no
Arab either (they understood math like this before us if we see it historically).

http://www.artreg.mil.se/article.php?id=283

http://www.artreg.mil.se/images/local/tekn_jr_1.gif
Example: Because of that the earth is not flat...

http://www.artreg.mil.se/images/local/tekn_jr_2.gif
D y is counted from

http://www.artreg.mil.se/images/local/tekn_jr_2_2.gif
Or

Where
R = Earth radius (m)
D = Shooting distance (m)

http://www.artreg.mil.se/images/local/tekn_jr_3.gif
D against the proportional distance error is counted from D D

Where
y = Hitting angle

http://www.artreg.mil.se/images/local/tekn_jr_4.gif

http://www.artreg.mil.se/images/local/tekn_jr_5.gif

__________________________________

Or simply they checked a map and saw the exact range between their position
and the US base? :)

[Javehn]

Oh , those times .... Artyllery eye /map corrections ...

Those time are so gone :roll: . This day there is some good stuff , GPS it's called . Onboard computers , and Arty Command center .

[FinnishMF]

Nice to see Masturbato always opining on how the terrorists are 'freedom fighters'.
I think there are terrorists and "freedom fighters" against US forces in Iraq.

[mustamato]

Oh , those times .... Artyllery eye /map corrections ...

Those time are so gone :roll: . This day there is some good stuff , GPS it's called . Onboard computers , and Arty Command center .

Yes I´m sure there are a lot of those in Iraqi civilian hands :roll: By the way they
would still need the exact location of the American base. How would they get that
without checking maps? By the way traditional methods are still teached to the
soldiers. USrael might turn of the GPS for us you know :) I understand that you
don´t have that problem, so no traditonal methods are teached to your boys?

[FinnishMF]

Oh , those times .... Artyllery eye /map corrections ...

Those time are so gone :roll: . This day there is some good stuff , GPS it's called . Onboard computers , and Arty Command center .
Nope, Those times aren't gone. Those things are also in use as "back ups" ;)

[FDF_Hemppis]

Oh , those times .... Artyllery eye /map corrections ...

Those time are so gone :roll: . This day there is some good stuff , GPS it's called . Onboard computers , and Arty Command center .

Well not for everyone :D

Finnish precision guided weapon = a mortar/arty and me with a pair of binoculars :)

In WW2 Finns destroyed tanks by firing with artillery. And I mean indirectly, one round at a time...

[Javehn]

Backups mean fuuckups , boys and girls .... And offcorse they are trained :lol: . You want a demo of Artyllery calling and correction ? ;)

If you are talking about bad guys , then they do it this way :

Some really bad and crazy mofo goes with binoculars , radio and some Allahu Akbar . Then , they find out the base . The crazy ass guy then calls the artyllery with an offset to it's location (no need for maps even to do it ) . After couple of rounds they starts to come pretty close ... The bad guys take his legs and goes running away ...
And that's it ,from that point , the Arty is zeroed on the bases . You can shell like a bad MF .

[FDF_Hemppis]

Some really bad and crazy mofo goes with binoculars , radio and some Allahu Akbar

rofl rofl



The crazy ass guy then calls the artyllery with an offset to it's location (no need for maps even to do it )

Care to explain to me how do you call in artillery without a map (GPS is one, but without it..)? I mean you have to have either your own or the targets co-ordinates, don’t you?

Or maybe I just misunderstood you.

[incubz5]

The mortar is the perfect urban weapon because it has a very low report. What little sound there is is broken up by buildings and anyone who knows the battlefield well can lob a round on anything they chose. Typically, they mount them on the backs of trucks and cruise around to points in which they have predetermined where the round will hit. It flies up slow and comes straight down and I've heard the only sound it makes is a whisper from the round's tailfins and the only ones who can her it are those right under it. Meanwhile, the person who lobbed the thing is long gone when the chaos breaks out.

[ExtraT]

So you reckon the guys in the military over there are too dumb to have thought of this response? Of course they've considered it... and apparently rejected it for being stupid. Ever stop to think of why the leadergroup in the US military seem to make choices which don't coincide with your opinions?

Well, I certainly don't have the whole information. Maybe I was being alittle too absolute. I just hate it when soldiers die like that, having witnessed it myself on several occasions.

[mustamato]

I've heard the only sound it makes is a whisper from the round's tailfins and the only ones who can her it are those right under it. Meanwhile, the person who lobbed the thing is long gone when the chaos breaks out.

http://www.militaryvideos.net/

Check the "mortar attack on US base in Afghanistan"-video. The sound is like
in movies. Fiiiiiiiuuuuuuuuuuu - boom. And yeah, they might carry the mortars
in pickups, but I doubt they fire them from there. The recoil is too heavy for that.
You can also check this video that shows when they fire a mortar from the back
of the truck, some pretty heavy recoil. It´s a 120 mm mortar and not a 81 of
course, but it gives an idea of that a mortar will not be fired from some ordinary
Nissan pickup.

http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/gallery/finland2003/finland2003_video.shtml

http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/gallery/finland2003/images/mortar.jpg

http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/gallery/finland2003/images/sisu.jpg

[Argyll]

have you heard about the attempt to fire it from the back of a donkey?

re the IED ones .........similar to the Katyusha's yes.

Once these bombs are in the air,it doesn't matter about DF kit....the firers are long gone

[incubz5]

mustamato,

Mortars fired from truckbeds have been in the Middle East for over 25 years. But don't take my word for it. This is verbatim from the excellent memoir of Chuck Pfarrer, Warrior Soul. Pfarrer served for over eight years as a SEAL and was one of the members of the legendary SEAL Team Six. This is from the chapter where he is in Lebanon in the early 80's:

"He was called "the mad mortor man." He had no other name, no face. He may have been one man or a dozen. He prowled though Hooterville (the SEAL's term for the area around their base in Beruit) in a pickup truck in which he had installed a Soviet 82-millimeter mortar. He would drive to spots where he had predetermined the fire solutions, then let fly at the compound. Sometimes he would reach all the way over the airport and hit Green Beach., sometimes he would hit the BLT an d the MSSG buildings. It was up to him.

The worst thing about mortar fire is that it gives no warning. The report of the weapon is so distant, so muffled by the surrounding buildings, that you never hear it. The round travels up, up, up, and then straight down on top of you. You never knew about it until it was in your shorts.

The mad mortar man was special, and his work was as unique and identifiable as his signature. He always fired just a few rounds, maybe four, in rapid succession. Then he would shift fire, driving his truck to some other spot and hitting a different part of the airport."

Anyway, that's just from an eight-year veteran of SEAL Team Six. I have other anecdotes from guys in Afghanistan that are more recent. I believe mortars fired from trucks also harrassed our forces in Somalia. The Army even has a term for them but I forget what it is.

[SiFiOn]

I've heard the only sound it makes is a whisper from the round's tailfins and the only ones who can her it are those right under it. Meanwhile, the person who lobbed the thing is long gone when the chaos breaks out.

http://www.militaryvideos.net/

Check the "mortar attack on US base in Afghanistan"-video. The sound is like
in movies. Fiiiiiiiuuuuuuuuuuu - boom. And yeah, they might carry the mortars
in pickups, but I doubt they fire them from there. The recoil is too heavy for that.
You can also check this video that shows when they fire a mortar from the back
of the truck, some pretty heavy recoil. It´s a 120 mm mortar and not a 81 of
course, but it gives an idea of that a mortar will not be fired from some ordinary
Nissan pickup.

http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/gallery/finland2003/finland2003_video.shtml

http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/gallery/finland2003/images/mortar.jpg

http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/gallery/finland2003/images/sisu.jpg

For more mortar action see this:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13450

You can also find a link there to a short movie of firing 120mm mortars...

[incubz5]

SiFiOn,

Please see my post directly above yours. I'll take Pfarrer's opinion on the subject over anyone else's. While I'm sure the mortar in your video, taken w/ the camera directly behind it, has a nice sound, do remember that the mortar Pfarrer writes about, the 82MM, has a range of 6,500 meters. When I refer to the report of the weapon, I'm not talking about as heard from the guy firing it from the back of the truck, I'm talking about from the target area.

[mustamato]

Please see my post directly above yours. I'll take Pfarrer's opinion on the subject over anyone else's. ... I'm not talking about as heard from the guy firing it from the back of the truck, I'm talking about from the target area.

So how did Pfarrer know that the mythic mortar man fired the mortar from the
back of his pickup? Well, it might be done, but I have never seen a photo of it, or
even read about it being done (because of the recoil). Just because Pfarrer was
a SEAL doesn´t mean that he was immune against rumours, urban legends and
what not. Not to mention that he had written it in a book. Technically it might be
done with a ordinary non-strenghtened civilian pickup truck(?), but a photo would
be nice.

http://www2.mil.fi/maavoimat/joukot/savpr/kuva.jpg
http://www2.mil.fi/maavoimat/joukot/savpr/krhampuu.mpg <-- Video, 6.8 mb

[Merik]

Mortars kick ass, especially when your in the Cav woot

[incubz5]

mustamato,

Pfarrer's only injuries in Beruit were from being too close to a mortar round. And are you seriously, seriously suggesting that Pfarrer, not to mention the hundreds of Marines serving for years in Beruit (many of which were wiped out by a truck bomb 100 times more sophisticated than a truck-mounted mortar) were ascribing to "urban legends" and "rumors". Excuse my incredulousness, but GUFFAW!!!

Fine, here we go:

"According to British pool reporters accompanying the military, Iraqi forces used mortars mounted on pickup trucks to fire on the civilians. A spokesman for the British forces in the Persian Gulf region, Lt. Cmdr. Emma Thomas, said an initial group of about 1,000 people made it out of the city safely, fleeing to the west of Basra, but the firing started when a second group of the same size tried to leave."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A44665-2003Mar28?language=printer

Pfarrer noted in his book that the FBI forensics team investigating the Marine barracks bombings concluded that the truck bomb, one of the most powerful non-nuclear explosions in history, was a wonder in welding. It was reinforced to drive through gates (which it did) and lined with marble (to direct the blanst upwards into the compound it ran right up to). Do you seriously think that Syrians or terrorists or Iraqi insurgents don't know how to weld? Or how to sandbag the back of a common truck?

As for a picture, did you just post one?! A video even??

[mustamato]

As for a picture, did you just post one?! A video even??

Yes, a specially re-inforced tracked truck. SISU NA-122 to be precise, I meant
something more like this, as commonly seen in places like Afghanistan and Iraq.

http://www.thaiworldview.com/travel/jpg/travel15.jpg

Quite different than putting a mortar in the back of this I´d say.

http://www.htk.fi/palolaitos/isokuva/nasu.jpg

[incubz5]

But mustamato, you just posted a picture (video even!) of a mortar firing from the back of an ordinary pick-up truck. Look up.

[Hydro]

There was a documentary on British TV not long ago that had footage of insurgents on a mortar attack. It seems most of the time it's just lobbing charge zero 82mm rounds from a handheld length of drainpipe, rather than spend ages setting up a baseplate and zeroing a tube in. As Argyll said, it's kind of PIRA style, firing from homemade tubes. I wonder how long it'll be before they start blasting gas cylinders from welded up oil drums...A-Team style :)

[incubz5]

It's a catchy weapon for the outgunned. If your strategy is fire and run like hell, it makes perfect sense:

Palestinians introduce mortar launcher on wheels

Launcher welded to pick-up truck, allowing terrorists to quickly get away.
Amir Buhbut

Palestinian terror groups are constantly thinking up new ways to carry out “quality” operations against Israeli citizens and soldiers. The latest invention is a mortar launcher on wheels.

The new technique works as follows: The terrorists weld mortar launchers to the back of fast pick-up trucks. “Once the mortar is fired, the driver quickly flees so IDF helicopters would not be able to spot him”, an IDF official explained.

According to intelligence sources, the terrorists’ new “weapon system” makes them harder to spot. However, IDF officials say that the army has enough means to quickly identify the mortar launchers.

Gaza Strip settlers estimate that since the Intifada erupted in October 2000, thousands of mortar shells have been fired at settlements and IDF outposts in the Strip.

http://www.maarivintl.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=article&articleID=5387

[Uninen]

But mustamato, you just posted a picture (video even!) of a mortar firing from the back of an ordinary pick-up truck. Look up.

Thats not a god damn pick-up truck.... :cantbeli:

It tracked multi-ton all-terrain vehicle that can transport 19 fully equipet troops.

Link! (http://www.mil.fi/maavoimat/kalustoesittely/00098_en.dsp)

[Hydro]

It's perfectly possible to fire a mortar from the back of a pick up truck. 81/82mm with low charges'd work. Not very accurate though, you can hardly bed in a tube, but good enough for whacking a few rounds over, then getting the hell out. If the Iraqi's have light 51mm/2 inch style mortars, they can fire them handheld...

[incubz5]

Yes, a specially re-inforced tracked truck. SISU NA-122 to be precise

I see mustamato. So the Finns have the technology to reinforce pickup trucks but the Iraqis don't.

Gotcha.

Oh, just an FYI, until we blew them out of the water in the 91 Gulf War, Iraq had the fourth largest army in the world. The fiber optic anti-aircraft net over Baghdad was regarded as the most sophisticated in the world.

Reinforcing a truck with some steel and a welding machine is way above them alright!

As for the mujahdeen in Afghanistan, they killed over 100,000 Soviets and ran them out of Afghanistan. Welding too much for them too?

[mustamato]

But mustamato, you just posted a picture (video even!) of a mortar firing from the back of an ordinary pick-up truck. Look up.

You mean this?

http://www2.mil.fi/maavoimat/joukot/savpr/kuva.jpg
http://www2.mil.fi/maavoimat/joukot/savpr/krhampuu.mpg <-- Video, 6.8 mb

Well, those wheels are not from a pickup, they are from the carriage, the mortar itself is highly conventional.

http://www.army-technology.com/contractor_images/patria/new3.jpg



There was a documentary on British TV not long ago that had footage of insurgents on a mortar attack. It seems most of the time it's just lobbing charge zero 82mm rounds from a handheld length of drainpipe, rather than spend ages setting up a baseplate and zeroing a tube in. As Argyll said, it's kind of PIRA style, firing from homemade tubes. I wonder how long it'll be before they start blasting gas cylinders from welded up oil drums...A-Team style :)


Launcher welded to pick-up truck, allowing terrorists to quickly get away. The new technique works as follows: The terrorists weld mortar launchers to the back of fast pick-up trucks. “Once the mortar is fired, the driver quickly flees so IDF helicopters would not be able to spot him”, an IDF official explained.

I wonder if those mortar grenades are ordinary, I somehow doubt that, from where
would they get mortar rounds but no mortars to fire them with? And it sounds a bit
bull**** to me, "welds". Why the hell would they do that? Maybe he means rocket
launchers.


So the Finns have the technology to reinforce pickup trucks but the Iraqis don't.

You sure have a strange definition of a pickup truck.


It's perfectly possible to fire a mortar from the back of a pick up truck. 81/82mm with low charges'd work. Not very accurate though, you can hardly bed in a tube, but good enough for whacking a few rounds over, then getting the hell out. If the Iraqi's have light 51mm/2 inch style mortars, they can fire them handheld...

A couple of years ago a British base in Germany came under attack from IRA,
that fired a couple of grenades from homemade mortars, from a van obviously.

[incubz5]

Mortars are regarded as the "Infantryman's Artillery". Everything has been mounted on the backs of trucks, be it anti-aircraft guns, rockets, mortars, you name it.

I've already given two accounts of the Iraqis and Palestenians using them. Excuse me if they don't have pictures up in Jane's, but they're not excatly in NATO and the devices are improvised. Let's just say their users are not posing for Weekend Warrior magazine.

[Tane Angle]

Not that anyone asked, but in more than one place I've seen mortars of both the garage-made "PIRA" variety and more conventional, military-type mortars fired from pickup trucks. It wasn't a problem for the users.

I've also seen various types of rockets fired from pickup trucks.

Sorry, no pictures available.

Have a good one all, and just some thoughts...

[mustamato]

Mortars are regarded as the "Infantryman's Artillery". Everything has been mounted on the backs of trucks, be it anti-aircraft guns, rockets, mortars, you name it.

I've already given two accounts of the Iraqis and Palestenians using them. Excuse me if they don't have pictures up in Jane's, but they're not excatly in NATO and the devices are improvised. Let's just say their users are not posing for Weekend Warrior magazine.

As for the Palestinians it was obviously not conventional stuff, it rather reminds
me of a incident I saw on the news many years ago. A British base in Germany
got under attack with mortar grenades. They were obviously fired from a van , and the
launcher (and the mortars probably) were homemade. The distance was certainly
not nearly 6 km as is the range for conventional mortars. It was rather 100
meters or something like that, indicating that the charge was not very powerful.
Until I actually see a photo of a conventional 81 mm mortar in the back of a
pickup truck, ready to fire and all, I will consider it to be, well, untrue because of
the recoil factor.

http://www.gnt.net/~jrube/images/@kneemor.jpg
Japanese 50 mm "knee mortar".

The stories say that American soldiers that found these and testfired them fired
them with the stock on their knees, because they were called "knee mortars".
They got in to a world of severe pain of course when the recoil smashed their
leg. It was probably called "knee mortar" because of the way the Japanese
carried them. Even those small mortars had a considerable recoil. I don´t think that
it was one of these "miniature" mortars that was used in this attack at the American
base though, they have been removed from most countries because of their
limited damage. Most countries use them to fire smoke. Although I have read some
interesting stories from South African commandos making raids that used these
miniature mortars, mostly to stunn and paralyze the enemy while they got assaulted.

[Uninen]

I've also seen various types of rockets fired from pickup trucks.

Rockets dont have recoil, 120mm mortar has, but really i dont get at what mustamato is getting at here.....

As from what ive red, most mortar rounds that "coalition" troops have captured from "terrorists" in Iraq and in Afghanistan have been (mostly) 82mm calibre, and 82mm mortar is quite light weapon, and its size / recoil wouldnt be too much for even your average Nissan pick-up....

Unlike the size / weight and most of all the recoil of 120mm weapon, which would most likely break the suspension of so light vehicle...

[mustamato]

As from what ive red, most mortar rounds that "coalition" troops have captured from "terrorists" in Iraq and in Afghanistan have been (mostly) 82mm calibre, and 82mm mortar is quite light weapon, and its size / recoil wouldnt be too much for even your average Nissan pick-up...

Photo?

[incubz5]

Excellent site on Saddam's paramilitary units and what do you know...


The Fedayeen Saddam did not arise to major international attention, however, until the 2003 invasion of Iraq by U.S led coalition forces. Whereas the Iraqi regular forces, as well as the Republican Guard, melted away before the coalition, Fedayeen forces put up stiff and often fanatical resistance to the coalition invasion. The U.S strategy was to bypass the cities and head straight to Baghdad. In response, Fedayeen fighters entrenched themselves in the cities and launched guerilla-style strikes on rear U.S supply convoys attempting to sustain the rapid advance. The Fedayeen also used intimidation to strengthen the resolve of the Iraqi army and keep civilians from rebelling. The U.S was forced to turning it's attention to the slow task of rooting out irregular forces from the southern cities, delaying the advance by two weeks.

During the invasion, Fedayeen fighters wielded AK-47 assault rifles, rocket propelled grenades, machine guns, and truck-mounted artillery and mortars. They made extensive use of subterfuge in an attempt to blunt the overwhelming technological advantage enjoyed by the invading forces. The irregular fighters often wore civilian clothes to confuse coalition forces, and falsely surrendered as a pretext for ambushing advancing U.S soldiers, among other incidents.

http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/F/Fedayeen-Saddam.htm

I mean really folks, what are we talking about here? Locking the wheels. dampening a customized suspension, and firing the device from a welded basic mount? If that? It makes perfect sense because the weapon is covert. That's the whole point! Pickup trucks are ubiquitous. Roll it out, mount your device, make your various adjustments, then go fire this thing at a parked helicopter, American base, etc and possibly inflict serious damage on something expensive or on a number of soldiers with something as cheap as a truck w/ a few basic mods.

[incubz5]

Ahhh..."technical" was the word I was looking for regarding these improvised devices. I first came across this term in "Blackhawk Down."

A "technical" is a fighting vehicle. It is an open-backed civilian land cruiser or pickup truck on which is mounted a recoilless rifle, heavy machine gun, mortar, or another weapons system. They are usually unarmored.

While the term "technical" appears to have originated in Mogadishu, this type of vehicle is employed throughout the world by militia forces in urban warfare.

They are employed in two distinct modes; either while moving at high speed, indiscriminately spraying an area with fire, or approaching a fixed target rapidly, suddenly stopping, and firing aimed shots.
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Technical

[Uninen]

As from what ive red, most mortar rounds that "coalition" troops have captured from "terrorists" in Iraq and in Afghanistan have been (mostly) 82mm calibre, and 82mm mortar is quite light weapon, and its size / recoil wouldnt be too much for even your average Nissan pick-up...

Photo?

ISBN 962-361-016-7

Theres picture of SOLTAM 120mm MORTAR in IDF Jeep. Sorry, no scanner and the stupid ass book (or whatever) doesnt have page numbers, but if you dont take my word for it, you can always buy the book..... i guess it wont be too expensive, if you can find one. :)

[incubz5]

Here is a mujahdeen posing with the Soviet 82 mm M-1937 mortar mentioned earlier. Frankly, it looks like you could mount it on a motorcyle.

http://www.rugreview.com/afgwar/20oni1.jpg

Can't believe this is too much for people to grasp!

[seruriermarshal]

My God , again ......
http://www.5kx.com/toysale/bbs/UploadFile/2003122810591290821.jpg

[Uninen]

My God , again ......

Yep, exactly what i was thinking when i (again) saw that drawing of yours, can you maybe this time explain wtf its supposed to be? :)

[incubz5]

Ok mustamata, here's your picture.

http://www.hodgenet.co.uk/Ztum-Setum/Pictures/Factions/PANTZ/fullsize/YLATbes1.jpg

sheesh...

[incubz5]

Seriously, Besse the Monster Truck Technical notwithstanding, here's an interesting post I came across on the same subject at command-post.org. The poster is replying to a comment about mortar locating radar, which detects the round coming in and sends another round back. Note his excellent response to this, it underscores why technicals are used in urban settings. Note that "Ute" is Aussie for "pickup". This guy is most likely an Aussie:

Seawolf 15,
A few thoughts. Mortar locating radars are quite efficient little beasts. (I query your figures on the 105 Round, I wish we had a 105 HE PD that had a lethal burst radius of 400 metres). There are problems in using Indirect fire weapons for Counter Battery fire in a non conventional battle.

Our PAL member of the goat chasing Martyrs Brigade, slaps his 82mm mortar in the back of his Ute….parks carefully between The Mosque, The maternity hospital and the Local Orphanage. Slaps out three quick rounds, before putting pedal to the metal. (Total time elapsed 15 seconds). Radar picks up first round, calculates Firing point, passes data to guns, guns laid onto target say 25 seconds. Guns fire ToF say 25 seconds. The ute is now away and gone. The shells are incoming and the Martyrs Bde PR man is already on the phone to CNN and The BBC.

[mustamato]

Can't believe this is too much for people to grasp!

Yeah, it was the impossibility of mounting it I was doubting :roll:


ISBN 962-361-016-7

Theres picture of SOLTAM 120mm MORTAR in IDF Jeep. Sorry, no scanner and the stupid ass book (or whatever) doesnt have page numbers, but if you dont take my word for it, you can always buy the book..... i guess it wont be too expensive, if you can find one.

Found some info on the mortars.


oltam K-5/K-6 Mortar (Mortar): These are light 120mm mortars
designed by Israel and used by that country and Iran, South Africa, and
the US Army. (Iranian spies stole the plans from Israel.) The K-5 and K-6
are light enough to be moved by a vehicle such as a jeep, an animal, or
even man-packed for short distances. The K-5 and K-6 have light
carriages for transport, but apart from the weight, are conventional in
design. They are strong enough to be parachuted. The K-5 is the
standard version, and the K-6 is long-range version with extended barrel.
(Carriage, K-5) 126kg, (Carriage, K-6) 178kg.

Sure that it fires from the jeep? Bv 206 with mortar by the way:

http://www.alvismoelv.no/Images/high/MortarPlatform81mm.jpg
http://www.alvismoelv.no/photo.asp?image=MortarPlatform81mm

[Uninen]

Sure that it fires from the jeep?

So it would seem, but i arent 100% sure, but the way its mounted would suggest its actually fired from the vehicle..

(i see no point in mounting it just for the transportation.... cause then they could just as well tow it.)

[mustamato]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. Look what I found.

http://www.armada.ch/00-6/bilder/mortm.jpg
Mobile simplicity, a TDA 81 mm mortar
on an ACMAT VLRA TPK 4.20 PMP mortar carrier.

[seruriermarshal]

My God , again ......

Yep, exactly what i was thinking when i (again) saw that drawing of yours, can you maybe this time explain wtf its supposed to be? :)
HI , Uninen I'm glad see you again ......
OK , to defend base :
1. I think Base defend radius > Mortar / RPG firing distance ;
2. I think use UAV surveillance near of the base ;
3. I think use constructs the concrete half underground fortification, usually army and weapon hiding ;
4. Use sensor surveillance road that enter base .

[Uninen]

seruriermarshal,

You do realize that (some/many) MORTARs today have range of over 10 000m, that would be just impossible.

[seruriermarshal]

seruriermarshal,

You do realize that (some/many) MORTARs today have range of over 10 000m, that would be just impossible.

Yes , today , some MORTARs over 10000m , but they size so big and attack speed so slow , look M121, 120mm :


Maximum Range..........7200 meters
Minimum Range..........200 meters
Maximum Rate of Fire.........16 rounds/min (first minute)
Sustained Rate of Fire..........4 rounds/min


Contractor: Watervliet Arsenal
Procurement Type: Production
Previous Contracts: 5
Contract Type: Firm Fixed Price
Production Qty: 110
Scope: Full Scale Production

If you use 240mm or bigger , then size bigger and heavyer , to The guerrilla force under the Iraqi terrain the combat is
disadvantageous, for instance transportation question.

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m121.jpg

[incubz5]

Yeah, it was the impossibility of mounting it I was doubting

So you regard it as an engineering marvel for someone to mount this tiny weapon w/ a range of 6,500 meters:

http://www.rugreview.com/afgwar/20oni1.jpg


onto a pickup truck? Since the rub for you seems to be the recoil effect, I decided to research mortar recoil a bit. Seems the Iranians developed 37mm motars to fire in mud. Truck is nothing magic compared to that:

During the first war with Iraq in the 1980s, Iranian forces discovered that their conventional mortars often could not be employed in the marshes on the border between the two countries because the mortars’ recoil caused the baseplate to sink into the soft mud of the marsh. The Marsh Mortar was designed to overcome this problem. It is basically a mortar of low caliber with low recoil forces and short range. It is hand held and drop fired.

http://www.pmulcahy.com/mortars/iranian_mortars.html

If a 37mm mortar can be mudfired, dropfired, etc, an 82mm round can most certainly be fired from a truck with an improvised mount.

[Uninen]

Yes , today , some MORTARs over 10000m , but they size so big and attack speed so slow , look M121, 120mm :

Uhm, no.....? Only think thats "big" or "slow" in that is that M113 chasis that its mounted on.

--

http://www.patria.fi/modules/image/images/929820B0C76D4157956F5DDFBDE103C8.JPG

Range max. 9000 m
Range min. 300 m
Bomb weight 15 kg

Weight in firing position 286 kg
Barrel 95 kg
Bipod with sight unit 65 kg
Base plate 126 kg

--

Thats modern 120mm mortar (long range / heavy 120mm) and its main parts, minus carriage.... (which it really doesnt need)... it "bulky" but yet man portable.

Link1 (long range) (http://www.patria.fi/modules/page/show_page.asp?id=E0E56CAAFDBC449CBD9118BF5BFE00A8&prt=CBD0FB31EEF5461E943353F4D3D5C7BA&frm=MENU_1&lid=C6EE6F7915ED415A8B44936DF7C45EC5)
Link2 (standard) (http://www.patria.fi/modules/page/show_page.asp?id=07E974BEA46844B5B4C142E15B5F7169&prt=CBD0FB31EEF5461E943353F4D3D5C7BA&frm=MENU_1&lid=D5BEA2751BF845039B6D944E079758CA)
;)

[seruriermarshal]

My friend one Bomb weight 15 kg , Then if they attackx10 base will use 150kg Bomb , Then they will use truck , Aiming, positioning demand time. If base in spacious region ? UAV will find they , then an AH-64 or allies GUN will attack them .

;)

[mustamato]

My friend one Bomb weight 15 kg , Then if they attackx10 base will use 150kg Bomb , Then they will use truck , Aiming, positioning demand time. If base in spacious region ? UAV will find they , then an AH-64 or allies GUN will attack them .

;)

What says that they just can´t put the mortar down, and cover it with a blanket,
cover and camouflage the blanket with sand and a kids bicycle or whatever that is nearby,
when the Apache flies over the place they won´t see ****.

[incubz5]

Look, it's evident that mortars come in a variety of flavors, from little handheld devices to massive units hauled around by four-tracks. I am suggesting that the weapons being employed by the PLO, Somalis, mujahdeen, Fayadeen, etc as technicals are NOT the 122mm ones, but the Russian-built 82mm ones that litter the Middle East. Additionally, they are not, in all likelihood, firing them from tiny Toyotas as mustamata suggested but from medium-sized trucks. Most of the trucks in Afghanistan are ex-Soviet. There are virtually no Japanese trucks in the Middle East. In fact, most of those in Iraq probably come from Russia or Inida (Ashok Leyland Ltd was a major supplier in Iraq).

[Merik]

seruriermarshal,

You do realize that (some/many) MORTARs today have range of over 10 000m, that would be just impossible.

Yes , today , some MORTARs over 10000m , but they size so big and attack speed so slow , look M121, 120mm :


Maximum Range..........7200 meters
Minimum Range..........200 meters
Maximum Rate of Fire.........16 rounds/min (first minute)
Sustained Rate of Fire..........4 rounds/min


Contractor: Watervliet Arsenal
Procurement Type: Production
Previous Contracts: 5
Contract Type: Firm Fixed Price
Production Qty: 110
Scope: Full Scale Production

If you use 240mm or bigger , then size bigger and heavyer , to The guerrilla force under the Iraqi terrain the combat is
disadvantageous, for instance transportation question.

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m121.jpg



Thats a M1064, a M113A2 chassis with the mortar tubes, ammo stores, etc. on the inside. Basically its an M106A1 but with a new chassis and a 120mm mortar instead of a 75mm mortar.

[seruriermarshal]

My friend one Bomb weight 15 kg , Then if they attackx10 base will use 150kg Bomb , Then they will use truck , Aiming, positioning demand time. If base in spacious region ? UAV will find they , then an AH-64 or allies GUN will attack them .

;)

What says that they just can´t put the mortar down, and cover it with a blanket,
cover and camouflage the blanket with sand and a kids bicycle or whatever that is nearby,
when the Apache flies over the place they won´t see ****.

Bomb weight 15 kg

Weight in firing position 286 kg
Barrel 95 kg
Bipod with sight unit 65 kg
Base plate 126 kg


Ok , If they will attack * 5 then : 15kg * 5 + 286kg + 95kg + 65kg +126kg = 677 kg

So heavy ...... when they near base , first watched by UAV ......

[incubz5]

What says that they just can´t put the mortar down, and cover it with a blanket,
cover and camouflage the blanket with sand and a kids bicycle or whatever that is nearby,
when the Apache flies over the place they won´t see ****.

Yes, but the counter-mortar radar will once it's fired. Try moving that thing in under 60 seconds. That's the whole point of mobility...get out of there before detection. How would feel as a PLO or Feyadeen carrying around that heavy weapon after, say, you read this:

The U.S. Army is sending 38 Lightweight Counter Mortar Radar (LCMR) systems to Iraq. The LCMR was developed for SOCOM (Special Operations Command) starting in 1999. The system weighs 120 pounds and is carried in two sixty pound packs. Costing about $650,000 each, it is meant to be set up on a roof top or other high ground. LCMR can detect the firing location of mortars up to seven kilometers away.

http://www.murdoconline.net/archives/000886.html

Rangers routinely carry lightweight versions of these and they're used heavily by the IDF.

[seruriermarshal]

What says that they just can´t put the mortar down, and cover it with a blanket,
cover and camouflage the blanket with sand and a kids bicycle or whatever that is nearby,
when the Apache flies over the place they won´t see ****.

Yes, but the counter-mortar radar will once it's fired. Try moving that thing in under 60 seconds. That's the whole point of mobility...get out of there before detection. How would feel as a PLO or Feyadeen carrying around that heavy weapon after, say, you read this:

The U.S. Army is sending 38 Lightweight Counter Mortar Radar (LCMR) systems to Iraq. The LCMR was developed for SOCOM (Special Operations Command) starting in 1999. The system weighs 120 pounds and is carried in two sixty pound packs. Costing about $650,000 each, it is meant to be set up on a roof top or other high ground. LCMR can detect the firing location of mortars up to seven kilometers away.

http://www.murdoconline.net/archives/000886.html

Rangers routinely carry lightweight versions of these and they're used heavily by the IDF.
You are right .

Bomb weight 15 kg , If they used then they only one attack , that guerrilla force for one no aiming attack , let a 677 kg mortar near base , they crazy .

[RomanS]

who fukcing gives a **** about mortar science. Pay some respects to the fallen you euro faggs

RIP soldiers!

[incubz5]

serurur: Exactly:

Camp Victory, which covers hundreds of acres, makes an inviting target. One attack hit the mess hall, wounding three soldiers, but most of the rockets and mortars fired over the wall fall harmlessly in open fields.

Vuono has three 155-mm Paladin howitzers on duty 24 hours a day and a counter-fire radar system scanning the horizon. Radar can locate the source of hostile fire, and the howitzers can return fire within minutes. "We've already fired a few rounds for practice, so they know we're here," he said.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/iraqoneyearlater/2001878909_iraqsoldiers14.html

[Uninen]

Unohtuiko ottaa lääkkeet?

who fukcing gives a **** about mortar science.
And its not like you actually know **** about that so just STFU, were having a interesting discussion here.

[seruriermarshal]

Yes , today , some MORTARs over 10000m , but they size so big and attack speed so slow , look M121, 120mm :

Uhm, no.....? Only think thats "big" or "slow" in that is that M113 chasis that its mounted on.

--

http://www.patria.fi/modules/image/images/929820B0C76D4157956F5DDFBDE103C8.JPG

Range max. 9000 m
Range min. 300 m
Bomb weight 15 kg

Weight in firing position 286 kg
Barrel 95 kg
Bipod with sight unit 65 kg
Base plate 126 kg

--

Thats modern 120mm mortar (long range / heavy 120mm) and its main parts, minus carriage.... (which it really doesnt need)... it "bulky" but yet man portable.

Link1 (long range) (http://www.patria.fi/modules/page/show_page.asp?id=E0E56CAAFDBC449CBD9118BF5BFE00A8&prt=CBD0FB31EEF5461E943353F4D3D5C7BA&frm=MENU_1&lid=C6EE6F7915ED415A8B44936DF7C45EC5)
Link2 (standard) (http://www.patria.fi/modules/page/show_page.asp?id=07E974BEA46844B5B4C142E15B5F7169&prt=CBD0FB31EEF5461E943353F4D3D5C7BA&frm=MENU_1&lid=D5BEA2751BF845039B6D944E079758CA)
;)

You forget :
Weight in transport. mode 494 kg ;

Towing speed max. 80 km/h .

;)

[Uninen]

minus carriage.... (which it really doesnt need)...

You forget :
Weight in transport. mode 494 kg ;

Towing speed max. 80 km/h .

;)
I did not... see.. ;)

And like i said there, it doesnt need it, it only for towing it behind the truck. When the weapon is deployed (or mounted), this "part" isnt "used"...

[RomanS]

Unohtuiko ottaa lääkkeet?

who fukcing gives a **** about mortar science.
And its not like you actually know **** about that so just STFU, were having a interesting discussion here.


No I don't know nothing about weapons at all.

And this is coming from a dumb fukc who tried to argue about Hinds with my friend, and couldnt provide a single photo evidence for a back up.

matter of fact, I talked to someone who flew Hinds in Afghanistan and was shot down twice, and he said you are a full of ****.

So before you argue, at least have some experience, or for Christ's sake touch a hind for real. You are all talk, probably never held a weapon in your life.

[seruriermarshal]

serurur: Exactly:

Camp Victory, which covers hundreds of acres, makes an inviting target. One attack hit the mess hall, wounding three soldiers, but most of the rockets and mortars fired over the wall fall harmlessly in open fields.

Vuono has three 155-mm Paladin howitzers on duty 24 hours a day and a counter-fire radar system scanning the horizon. Radar can locate the source of hostile fire, and the howitzers can return fire within minutes. "We've already fired a few rounds for practice, so they know we're here," he said.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/iraqoneyearlater/2001878909_iraqsoldiers14.html

My friend , I think , there need more defend , when allies have more safe base , then allies have base network .

[seruriermarshal]

minus carriage.... (which it really doesnt need)...

You forget :
Weight in transport. mode 494 kg ;

Towing speed max. 80 km/h .

;)
I did not... see.. ;)

And like i said there, it doesnt need it, it only for towing it behind the truck. When the weapon is deployed (or mounted), this "part" isnt "used"...

677kg weapon need time , UAV will find they ( Spacious terrain ).

[incubz5]

Well, they can get off that first round before the Howitzers return fire, but I would not want to be the insurgents manning large mortars. Again, from the front lines:

Delta Battery seek, wait for Mad Mortarman

By Sgt. 1st Class Todd Oliver

AL HAWIJA, Iraq (Army News Service Nov. 24, 2003) -- The men of Delta Battery are in search of the "Mad Mortarman."

Well, that's not exactly true. The 173rd Airborne Brigade’s artillery unit has an idea where he is and he certainly knows where they are. It's just that the boys of Delta are hoping to drop in on this man, drop a 105mm howitzer round in on him to be exact.

From the nearby town of Al Hawija, the Mad Mortar Man lobs both mortar and artillery shells and rockets at Forward Operating Base McHenry, home to 1st Battalion, 12th Infantry Regiment. The men of 1-12 are friends of Delta Battery you see and like any good friend Delta Soldiers are a little ticked that someone is trying to kill their comrades.

Without making light of the situation, they did the only thing a bunch of artillerymen could do; they dragged their guns out to the FOB and waited.

They still wait.

But they're the patient kind, and they’re confident they’ll get the Mad Mortarman.

It's just a matter of time.

"The initial plan was to be here for a day," said 1st Lt. Kyle Barden, Battery Fire Direction Officer. "The base was getting mortared a lot, so we wanted to come out here, get an acquisition, shoot back and hopefully get the Mad Mortar Man. We realized that wasn't feasible and are going to be here an undetermined amount of time."

From the look of things, according to Barden, the base was being bracketed. The Mad Mortar Man was getting smarter, and the smarter he got, the closer he was getting to the unit.

"He knows what he's doing. He was getting more and more accurate. He had rounds fall short of the FOB and other rounds land far. They (1-12) already had their 120 mm mortars out here, but they brought us out for the extra firepower and the extra reach."

"The 120mm mortars response time is not as fast as ours," said Delta’s 1st Sgt. Frank Marcantonio. "And the mortars can't reach as far as we can. Our counter fire time is just a lot quicker."
http://www.efamilyportal.com/brian/Iraq/179.html

[seruriermarshal]

Well, they can get off that first round before the Howitzers return fire, but I would not want to be the insurgents manning large mortars. Again, from the front lines:

Delta Battery seek, wait for Mad Mortarman

By Sgt. 1st Class Todd Oliver

AL HAWIJA, Iraq (Army News Service Nov. 24, 2003) -- The men of Delta Battery are in search of the "Mad Mortarman."

Well, that's not exactly true. The 173rd Airborne Brigade’s artillery unit has an idea where he is and he certainly knows where they are. It's just that the boys of Delta are hoping to drop in on this man, drop a 105mm howitzer round in on him to be exact.

From the nearby town of Al Hawija, the Mad Mortar Man lobs both mortar and artillery shells and rockets at Forward Operating Base McHenry, home to 1st Battalion, 12th Infantry Regiment. The men of 1-12 are friends of Delta Battery you see and like any good friend Delta Soldiers are a little ticked that someone is trying to kill their comrades.

Without making light of the situation, they did the only thing a bunch of artillerymen could do; they dragged their guns out to the FOB and waited.

They still wait.

But they're the patient kind, and they’re confident they’ll get the Mad Mortarman.

It's just a matter of time.

"The initial plan was to be here for a day," said 1st Lt. Kyle Barden, Battery Fire Direction Officer. "The base was getting mortared a lot, so we wanted to come out here, get an acquisition, shoot back and hopefully get the Mad Mortar Man. We realized that wasn't feasible and are going to be here an undetermined amount of time."

From the look of things, according to Barden, the base was being bracketed. The Mad Mortar Man was getting smarter, and the smarter he got, the closer he was getting to the unit.

"He knows what he's doing. He was getting more and more accurate. He had rounds fall short of the FOB and other rounds land far. They (1-12) already had their 120 mm mortars out here, but they brought us out for the extra firepower and the extra reach."

"The 120mm mortars response time is not as fast as ours," said Delta’s 1st Sgt. Frank Marcantonio. "And the mortars can't reach as far as we can. Our counter fire time is just a lot quicker."
http://www.efamilyportal.com/brian/Iraq/179.html

So I think allies base left city , Spacious terrain . UAV important , and airship .

[Uninen]

couldnt provide a single photo evidence for a back up.

http://www.aeronautics.ru/m/mi24061.jpg
a PKT 7.62-mm machine-gun on an Mi-24 in Afghanistan

Pictures like that dumbfcuk?


matter of fact, I talked to someone who flew Hinds in Afghanistan and was shot down twice, and he said you are a full of ****.

Having just given that image to you, i would strongly feel that your the one full of ****. ;)


You are all talk, probably never held a weapon in your life.
Ok, the i guess i havent, you know best.... cripple. rofl

[LordHalbert]

Apparently there was direct hit that killed the majority of the US soldiers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3678621.stm

Intersting read.

The mortar might have been "lucky" but upon reading about what happened, I tend to believe it was not just pure luck.

I doubt this was a shoot and scoot improvised tube maned by untrained insurgents.

[seruriermarshal]

Apparently there was direct hit that killed the majority of the US soldiers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3678621.stm

Intersting read.

The mortar might have been "lucky" but upon reading about what happened, I tend to believe it was not just pure luck.

I doubt this was a shoot and scoot improvised tube maned by untrained insurgents.

Allies defend base plan have wrong .

[Uninen]

The witness said two bombs had fallen, the second directly on soldiers seeking shelter after the first blast.

:|

[seruriermarshal]

The witness said two bombs had fallen, the second directly on soldiers seeking shelter after the first blast.

:|

So I say allies base defend plan are wrong . They must change .

[RomanS]

Poor little soul, I bet you searched everywhere for this one little photo.

[Uninen]

Poor little soul, I bet you searched everywhere for this one little photo.
I did not.

http://www.aeronautics.ru/m/index.htm
http://www.aeronautics.ru/m/gallery007.htm

:roll:

[incubz5]

PermskiiOMON,

You know someone shot down twice in Afghanistan while in Hinds? After we shipped the mujahdeen over Stingers, that was the only thing bringing down Hinds, and lots of them, around 300. The Stingers vitually neutralized Soviet air power (unlike us they had no precision munitions to drop from jets, so the helicopter was it for them).

Quick question. When a Hind explodes from a Stinger missile hit, then drops to the deck and crashes, how does anyone survive, much less twice?

[RomanS]

PermskiiOMON,

You know someone shot down twice in Afghanistan while in Hinds? After we shipped the mujahdeen over Stingers, that was the only thing bringing down Hinds, and lots of them, around 300. The Stingers vitually neutralized Soviet air power (unlike us they had no precision munitions to drop from jets, so the helicopter was it for them).

Quick question. When a Hind explodes from a Stinger missile hit, then drops to the deck and crashes, how does anyone survive, much less twice?

The guy wasnt shot down with a Stinger.

It was a blowpipe and the second time DSHK

[ibstolidude]

Anyone know how big the area those rounds impacted was?

If those insurgents had military training, I wouldn't be surprised that they managed to hit something... Most likely, they've recced the "target" several times, and then fired from a location that was set up earlier...

Who knows, maybe they had the mortar 5kms away, and a single guy directing it, making it somewhat easy to away safely?

Naah, I'm just guessing here... - you comment that "most likely" however what you posted is not most likely - the most likley COA is the most commonly employed, easiest method for the enemy - it is the one most used therefore most likely..the man from B-dad already told of the MOST LIKLEY scenario.

[mustamato]

Anyone know how big the area those rounds impacted was?

If those insurgents had military training, I wouldn't be surprised that they managed to hit something... Most likely, they've recced the "target" several times, and then fired from a location that was set up earlier...

Who knows, maybe they had the mortar 5kms away, and a single guy directing it, making it somewhat easy to away safely?

Naah, I'm just guessing here... - you comment that "most likely" however what you posted is not most likely - the most likley COA is the most commonly employed, easiest method for the enemy - it is the one most used therefore most likely..the man from B-dad already told of the MOST LIKLEY scenario.

Homemade Katyusha type rockets? Nah (if you are talking about Argyll he is at M-pho rather than B-dad now btw).

[obd]

hehe, Hey Mustamoto, those Japanese knee mortars are great.... VERY effective... US Marines faced them alot during the island hopping campaign and respected them.......

One funny story, and this is off the history channel interview of a veteran Marine, before capturing one of them the Marines knew the Japanese called them "knee mortars". One bright guy, thinking it meant you literally fired it from your knee, tried it out on the first one captured and it shattered his kneecap..........

Dont the British have a sort of modern version of that?? Its slightly bigger tube diameter but I hear its man protable anyway....and smaller than 60mm.........??

[ibstolidude]

I have pics of everything bolted to Pickup trucks from mortars to 37mm grenade launchers to a damn Dshka to AAA guns. 9 kinds of stupid ****.

[FDF_Hemppis]

Anyone know how big the area those rounds impacted was?

If those insurgents had military training, I wouldn't be surprised that they managed to hit something... Most likely, they've recced the "target" several times, and then fired from a location that was set up earlier...

Who knows, maybe they had the mortar 5kms away, and a single guy directing it, making it somewhat easy to away safely?

Naah, I'm just guessing here... - you comment that "most likely" however what you posted is not most likely - the most likley COA is the most commonly employed, easiest method for the enemy - it is the one most used therefore most likely..the man from B-dad already told of the MOST LIKLEY scenario.

My apologies, bad choice of words. "Most likely" --> "This is the method I imagine they would be using, IF they have any training with mortarts".