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Ericsson
05-04-2007, 07:26 AM
American soldiers are fleeing the Iraq war for Canada -- and US officials may be on their trail. North of the border is no longer the safe haven it was during the Vietnam era.




AP
Kyle Snyder, a 23-year-old Army deserter, shown in 2006, talking about an incident during an his tour in Iraq that led him to desert. He currently lives in Canada.

One morning in late February, Canadian police arrived at a house in the small town of Nelson, British Columbia, and arrested Kyle Snyder, a US soldier who had gone AWOL from the Army. Snyder, a former combat engineer who left the United States in April 2005 to avoid deployment for a second tour in Iraq, was detained for several hours but never charged with a crime. It remains unclear why he was arrested.
The local police said they were told to detain Snyder by the Canadian Border Services Agency but acknowledged that the immigration agency was not their "original source" for information on Snyder. In fact, Snyder was released after a Canadian immigration official contacted the local police and informed them there was no basis for Snyder's detention. After he was back home, Snyder said he was told by Josie Perry, the Canadian immigration official who ordered his release, that his arrest had come at the behest of officials from the US Army.

A few weeks later, in Toronto, three men wearing trench coats knocked at the home of Winnie Ng, a Canadian resident who harbored an American soldier named Joshua Key. Key, who'd also been a combat engineer, went AWOL from the Army in 2003 after serving in Iraq. According to Ng, one of the men announced they were Toronto police officers and told her they wanted to speak to Key, though Ng was suspicious about their identities. One of the three was in fact a local police officer, but according to a local news report, a spokesperson for the Toronto police department acknowledged that at least one of the other two men was an official from the US Army's Criminal Investigation Command, or CID.

The incidents have sparked allegations that Canadian law enforcement has been collaborating with US officials to help track down American soldiers who have fled to Canada. Some critics, including a left-leaning member of Parliament who represents Nelson, say they believe it is a campaign of intimidation. "Our concern is that there could be other Kyle Snyders in Canada," Alex Atamanenko, the parliamentarian, said following Snyder's arrest on Feb. 23. "Are there those that are being apprehended now?" In a formal letter of complaint to the Conservative Party Cabinet ministers responsible for public safety and immigration, Atamanenko noted that Snyder was apprehended without a search warrant or permission to enter the residence. "Has Canada ever raised official objection to the US about the operation of US police, security, intelligence or military officials in Canada?" Atamanenko asked, adding, "It is important for Canadian citizens and visitors to our country to know that our Canadian sovereignty is respected."


FOUND IN...


Salon.com


This article has been provided by Salon.com as part of a special agreement with SPIEGEL INTERNATIONAL. In return, our colleagues in San Francisco will publish selected articles from Der Spiegel on their Web site at: Salon.com
With the Iraq war in its fifth year, an increasing number of American soldiers have been going AWOL and fleeing to Canada, particularly over the last six months. One lawyer who works on their behalf puts the number of American war resisters currently living in Canada at 250 or more. Advocates for them here talk of a kind of "underground railroad" that has developed south of the border to help war resisters make their way north.
Ever since the Vietnam War, many Americans have viewed Canada as a liberal oasis, ready to welcome those who no longer want to take part in Uncle Sam's wars. But the reality is more complicated these days, especially with the conservative Harper government in power since 2006. Although the Canadian people are still largely welcoming, some war resisters say they have faced hostility here. And all of them who are seeking refugee status to remain in the country face complex legal obstacles, according to experts on Canada's refugee laws. Meanwhile, the alleged cooperation between Canadian and US law enforcement authorities to track them down raises thorny legal questions of its own.

Speaking by phone recently from an undisclosed location in the Canadian prairies, Key told Salon that he generally feels safe in Canada, although he said one person threatened to "put him on a boat and take him back to the US" and another told him that his daughter "deserved to be shot in the head." He said that he was unnerved after he heard about Snyder's arrest in B.C. in February. "After what I saw in Iraq," he said, "I know that a snatch-and-grab operation doesn't take long."

It would be illegal under Canadian law for US officials to make an arrest on Canadian soil, according to Audrey Macklin, a professor at the University of Toronto Law School. "US law enforcement officers have no jurisdiction here," she said. The picture gets murkier, however, with the prospect of Canadian police working on behalf of US officials. "Sometimes officials cooperate in cross-border criminal investigations," Macklin said. But the incidents involving Snyder and Key, she said, didn't strike her as typical cross-border cooperation. "It's sheer conjecture on my part, but I do wonder if it is more about intimidation."

While the Canadian police have publicly acknowledged cooperating with Army CID on the search for Key -- who has not committed a crime in Canada -- US officials have remained circumspect. In a recent report in the Globe and Mail, a spokesperson for the CID, which investigates criminal matters for the military, acknowledged only that they were "interested" in talking with Key because of allegations he has made about the conduct of American soldiers in Iraq. Key recently wrote a book called "The Deserter's Tale," published in February by Grove/Atlantic, in which he alleges war crimes by his fellow soldiers. Key wrote, among other things, that he believes American soldiers raped Iraqi women and that he watched soldiers from the 124th Infantry Division playing soccer with the heads of dead Iraqi civilians. (Key also notes in the book that when torture at Abu Ghraib became public in spring 2004, he was not surprised, because it struck him as consistent with the brutality he had witnessed.) Key says he refused to participate in such acts and is now seeking refugee status in Canada.

Requests to CID by Salon for further details about the Army agency's pursuit of Key were not answered.


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American war resisters who flee to Canada have no easy options. They might seek legal immigrant status like any other immigrant who comes to Canada (a status difficult to obtain once you're in the country), or they might simply stay quiet and try to remain in the country illegally. But many of them seek refugee status on political grounds. And many of them are now hearing about a group called the War Resisters Support Campaign, which pledges to help them whatever their chosen course of action.
Kevin Lee, a former private in the Army who served in Iraq in 2006, arrived in Canada in March after going AWOL. He told Salon in a phone interview that he hid in an apartment in Florida for several weeks before taking a bus to Toronto. His original plan had been to flee to Mexico, but after using Google to research his options, he came across the Web site of the War Resisters Support Campaign and decided Canada was the best place to go. He is now seeking refugee status here.

It was still a tough choice to flee. "I was sad to leave, but I don't regret it at all," Lee said, "because the war is pointless and we're losing too many troops." He was adamant that even if his effort to gain legal status in Canada fails, he won't go home. "I'll go somewhere else," he said. "As far away as I can get."

Jeffrey House, a Toronto lawyer who works on behalf of numerous war resisters, contends that the war in Iraq contravenes international law and soldiers therefore have a right to refuse to serve in it. It is on that basis that he is fighting for them to be granted refugee status by the Canadian government.

But the argument House is making has not yet definitively been put to the test here. Canada has relatively generous refugee laws, but the situation with US war resisters does not fit neatly under the definition of "refugee." According to Lisa Borsu of Citizenship and Immigration Canada, the official agency that handles refugee claims, "the Government of Canada is committed to protecting refugees who have a well founded fear of persecution" based on "political opinions" or "membership in a particular social group."

But whether facing jail time in the United States for breaking a US military law qualifies as "persecution" is a much stickier point. University of Toronto's Macklin, an expert on refugee law, says that the case House is trying to make is a tough one because past interpretations of Canadian refugee law affirm that "prosecution is different from persecution." Though war resisters are taking a political stand, Macklin says that the Canadian system is more likely to view their plight back home -- facing a judge and potential jail time -- as distinct from that of immigrants fleeing an authoritarian regime, who could be imprisoned or executed for their political or religious leanings if sent back home.

The War Resisters Support Campaign, headquartered in Toronto, is lobbying the Canadian government to make a new provision in the immigration laws to allow the US soldiers to stay in Canada legally. It has helped roughly 40 Americans who have contacted the group from within Canada, according to Lee Zaslofsky, the coordinator of the campaign, and more than a hundred others who have made contact anonymously through lawyers. The group helps find them housing, gives them some financial support, and coordinates legal services needed for the fight to stay. Recently, due to the rising number of resisters, the organization put out a call for housing and received more than 300 responses from people across Canada, including from one former Liberal member of the Canadian Parliament, whose name the group declined to disclose.

The group has also given advice to many other resisters in the United States who are considering darting to Canada, according to Zaslofsky. They have also received responses from people in the United States offering their homes as safe houses for resisters as they make their way to the Canadian border -- what advocates refer to as an "underground railroad." Zaslofsky said that his organization has not worked directly with anyone in the United States, but said that if it necessary, "there are people in the US who I could refer them to."

For the Vietnam generation, all this might sound quite familiar. In fact, the support movement here is led and staffed largely by people who refused to fight the war in Indochina, and is seen by many of them as one generation helping the next. Zaslofsky, himself an Army deserter during Vietnam, acknowledges a generational difference; back then they were fleeing the draft, while many of today's soldiers are fleeing an Army they were driven into by economic struggle. "In my day people went to university to avoid military service," Zaslofsky said. Now they go into the military in order to get the money to go to college, he said, or because low-wage jobs at places like Wal-Mart or McDonald's aren't enough to support their families.

Without a draft, the number of Americans fleeing north is a fraction of what it was four decades ago. More than 30,000 fled to Canada during the late 1960s and early '70s. Only a few thousand have gone AWOL during the current war, and most of them have apparently remained in the United States. Still, as the war in Iraq drags on and disillusionment grows in the ranks of the military, the numbers are rising. While 3,101 soldiers went AWOL between October 2005 and October 2006, more than 1,700 soldiers deserted in the six months between October 2006 and early April, according to figures released recently by the Army. According to the War Resisters Support Campaign, the number of soldiers coming to Canada over the past six months has risen correspondingly.

Corey Glass, a former National Guardsman who worked in military intelligence in Iraq before deserting to Canada in 2006, says he once considered it his duty to serve. But he says that in Iraq, he was directed to "sanitize" intelligence reports. "I was told to pretty much go with the story you're given, take out the real details, and paint a picture for the commander," he told Salon. Eventually Glass came to believe that "they used lies and plays on words to get us over there, and ordered us to commit crimes, in my opinion, against another country."

The growing strain on the US military, manifest in multiple and lengthened tours of duty, is helping to accelerate the desertion rate. According to Zaslofsky, one US soldier now living in Canada had served two tours of duty and was awarded a medal for his service at a party held in his honor on an Army base. It was supposed to be his last day in the Army. Afterward, excited about his imminent freedom, the soldier drove back to his house, where he found an Army official waiting on his driveway with orders for him to return for a third tour. "That's it," the soldier said to himself, according to Zaslofsky. "I'm going to Canada."

Jeffrey House, who represents Joshua Key, Corey Glass and other war resisters, added, "People come to me and say, 'I can't look at one more body' or, 'I can't stand to not be able to pass a car while walking without worrying that it's going to be blown up.' People get beyond tired and you're asking a lot of them, particularly when it's on such a doubtful venture as the war in Iraq."

House, who was himself a Vietnam draft dodger, says 124 American soldiers have come to his Toronto office alone, and he estimates that at least twice that number are now in Canada. He says that it's not uncommon for someone to fly up to Toronto from the northeastern United States just for the day and say to him, "I'm supposed to be back in Iraq in three weeks. What are my options?"

But US soldiers fleeing to Canada today face a Canadian government that may well be less hospitable than the one in power during the Vietnam era. Back then, Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau welcomed war deserters, declaring "Canada should be a refuge from militarism." Richard Nixon called him an "asshole," to which Trudeau allegedly responded, "I have been called worse things by better people."

The government of Conservative Party leader Stephen Harper, by contrast, seems to have something of a reverence for the Bush administration and its worldview. Although this is never expressed openly in the more progressive-minded Canadian political landscape, the Harper government has implicitly echoed many of Bush's policies, values and rhetoric. Harper has regularly spoken of a more muscular foreign policy, created strong ties with evangelical Christians -- including those in the United States -- and sought to curb some of Canada's generous social programs. Some Canadian commentators have suggested that if Harper had been running the country in 2003, there would probably be Canadian troops in Iraq alongside the American ones. (Canadian troops are serving in Afghanistan, but none are in Iraq.) Still, the Harper government so far has not said or done anything to oppose the American war resisters -- at least not publicly.

Of five Toronto-area Conservative members of Parliament contacted for this report, only one responded. "Unfortunately, Minister Van Loan will not be commenting on this issue," Michael White, spokesperson for Peter Van Loan, the leader of the government in the House of Commons and a member of the federal Cabinet, said in an e-mail. "However, if you want to do a story about how the Government is strengthening democracy in Canada, then I'm the guy you want to talk to." Spokespeople for both the Canadian Ministry of Immigration and the ruling Conservative Party refused to say anything that would either support or criticize Canada's providing safe harbor for American war resisters.

Intriguingly, very few leftist Canadian politicians have been willing to openly show their support, either. It is a touchy subject that often provokes an uncomfortable response -- it seems that politicians of all stripes here are torn between upsetting their constituents on one hand, and the U.S. government on the other.

But so long as Canada doesn't deport them, many of the war resisters do not appear to be going elsewhere anytime soon. Joshua Key, for example, says that he stands firmly behind his decision and is determined to stay. Kyle Snyder has recently married a Canadian woman and will gain citizenship, and others are in varying stages of putting down roots.

Corey Glass says that the positive reception he has received from most Canadians has helped make him feel at ease with his difficult decision to flee. Most of the time, he says, Canadians welcome the war resisters, "especially when they find out you were in Iraq and decided to step out, because they're pretty proud of not engaging in the war."

"I know I made the right decision," Glass added. "I just wish I hadn't needed to."

Roy Batty
05-04-2007, 08:38 AM
We need to round these fvckers up and ship them straight back to thier Uncle Sam for a term of breaking big rocks into little rocks in Levenworth. You would be suprized how many Canadians are not happy about these cowards hiding here.

victor3ranger
05-04-2007, 09:27 AM
It would be ok with most of us if they just disappeared for good.

Holmer
05-04-2007, 10:00 AM
A few weeks later, in Toronto, three men wearing trench coatsknocked at the home of Winnie Ng, a Canadian resident who harbored an American soldier named Joshua Key. Key, who'd also been a combat engineer, went AWOL from the Army in 2003 after serving in Iraq. According to Ng, one of the men announced they were Toronto police officers and told her they wanted to speak to Key, though Ng was suspicious about their identities. One of the three was in fact a local police officer, but according to a local news report, a spokesperson for the Toronto police department acknowledged that at least one of the other two men was an official from the US Army's Criminal Investigation Command, or CID.

This part made me laugh....ohhhh, vas it ze Gestapo Mr. Ng?

I advise all soldiers crossing the border to have your leave papers as I ask and check them when I am on duty. I'd be more than happy to stop a deserter and ship him back to the USA before he gets inland.

Hollis
05-04-2007, 11:02 AM
Every war sees it's share of turncoats, collaborators, cowards and traitors. So what else is new?

2Sheds_Jackson
05-04-2007, 11:49 AM
The article is a wonderful exercise in obfuscation. These are not "war resisters" they are deserters. They are not ordinary citizens forced into military service. They volunteered for it, have been paid for it, and received thousands of dollars in enlistment bonuses and even more value from their training. Then when required to put back into the system, to repay the American people for what they've been given, they ran away. How honorable of them.



The incidents have sparked allegations that Canadian law enforcement has been collaborating with US officials to help track down American soldiers who have fled to Canada.


Love the language they use; "allegations" "collaborating".

As far as I'm concerned, Canada can keep them, but heavily garnish their wages until we are paid back.

Mr. JOSHUA
05-04-2007, 12:08 PM
Yep.

Certain elements of the media wanna relive the vietnam war so badly....

...some of them even wanna call it "game" like Cronkite did.....

ex Strathcona
05-04-2007, 12:09 PM
1) The source seems suspect and spinning the story with an obvious anti war agenda.

2) There are numerous agreements between Canada and the U.S. for the cooperation between Law Enforcement agencies to apprehend cross border hopping criminals.

3) Desertion from the Military is a criminal act.

4) We do not want criminals fleeing to out country and so good riddance to them.

5) The OP is well known for posting topics that attempt to cast Canada in a poor light and i would dearly like to know why that is.

MOSTEAKA
05-04-2007, 12:28 PM
Key recently wrote a book called "The Deserter's Tale," published in February by Grove/Atlantic, in which he alleges war crimes by his fellow soldiers. Key wrote, among other things, that he believes American soldiers raped Iraqi women
that he believes American soldiers raped Iraqi women

What an ass...shipp him back and put him in jail.

Big Bad Bob
05-04-2007, 02:26 PM
Every war sees it's share of turncoats, collaborators, cowards and traitors. So what else is new?


x2

give the media an excuse to re-hash the iraq is so the new vietnam bit

seraosha
05-04-2007, 02:30 PM
When will these baby boomers die off?

I'm so fvcking tired of their crap.

ShotOver
05-04-2007, 02:35 PM
Baby Boomers? What the hell do 60,70 year olds have to do with this?

Roy Batty
05-04-2007, 02:38 PM
Baby Boomers? What the hell do 60,70 year olds have to do with this?

The Canadian ones think it's Viet-fvcking-Nam all over again. Hence the self rightious left wing bullsh1te in regards to these cowards.

ShotOver
05-04-2007, 02:41 PM
The Canadian ones think it's Viet-fvcking-Nam all over again. Hence the self rightious left wing bullsh1te in regards to these cowards.

Ah yeah, fair enough man. My Parents are both in their 60's, so I guess I am Gen X.

seraosha
05-04-2007, 02:42 PM
Dude, "Boomers" are the aging hippies.

Dennis Hopper selling fidelity accounts. Led Zepplin selling Cadillacs.
Jane Fonda's fvucking generation...sure, not all of them are hippies, but they are the generation holding all the power, the they were all around for the protests...jeebus, they failed last time, Clintons Zombies are at it again, and this time they are "The Man".

ShotOver
05-04-2007, 02:44 PM
Dude, "Boomers" are the aging hippies.

Dennis Hopper selling fidelity accounts. Led Zepplin selling Cadillacs.
Jane Fonda's fvucking generation...sure, not all of them are hippies, but they are the generation holding all the power, the they were all around for the protests...jeebus, they failed last time, Clintons Zombies are at it again, and this time they are "The Man".

Roger that mate. I know what your saying.

shocker1
05-04-2007, 02:46 PM
Corey Glass says that the positive reception he has received from most Canadians has helped make him feel at ease with his difficult decision to flee. Most of the time, he says, Canadians welcome the war resisters, "especially when they find out you were in Iraq and decided to step out, because they're pretty proud of not engaging in the war."
I would have more respect for someone who refuses to go and takes his vacation behind bars. These people are cowards that deserve no mercy or quarter. Canadians should wonder what these guys will do for them in a pinch.

Eusebius
05-04-2007, 02:53 PM
They should get the **** out. Canada does not need such types polluting our nation.

8thidpathfinderpower
05-04-2007, 05:36 PM
Oh boy...I can hear it now...the growing chorus of the people who will hide behind the constitution to protect a deserters right to protest, and those who will cry about the number of american soldiers that are unhappy with the war and make it sound like the whole army is deserting.

Deserters...nothing new. Every war has its share of cowards and traitors, whose only mission in life is to bring shame to the country. Maybe the press should quit making a big deal out of one little richard, and start telling some real news.

Bombtrack
05-04-2007, 06:28 PM
Let's put them all on a rocket ship and launch it into the sun

Dakota435
05-04-2007, 07:15 PM
It's hard to think of anyone SHTOOOPIDER or lower than someone who deserts from a *volunteer* army, in the middle of a conflict he knew he'd be going to at the get go.

tntkop
05-04-2007, 09:39 PM
One of them will probably grow up to be the Democratic nominee for President of the United States.

Hollis
05-04-2007, 09:47 PM
One of them will probably grow up to be the Democratic nominee for President of the United States.


And tell all about his three purple hearts and that his actions were reminencent of Genghis Khan.

Dakota435
05-05-2007, 12:59 AM
And tell all about his three purple hearts and that his actions were reminencent of Genghis Khan.

That was the most bizarre part of the whole Kerry episode, the fact that he was basically labeling himself a war criminal and a hero at the same time. These people really have absolutely no self awareness. Any action or statement is strictly whatever fits the needs of the moment

usm2b
05-06-2007, 04:07 AM
As much as I dislike the bag of ass...Lt. Watada, or whatever his name is, he is a war resister. These clowns are deserters.

lider_r
05-06-2007, 04:50 AM
One of them will probably grow up to be the Democratic nominee for President of the United States.

or a republican politician who has no problem sending other people off to war:

Name: Gov. Meldrim “Mel” Thomson (R-Orford)
Born: March 8, 1929
Employer: His Daddy’s Publishing Co, Inc.
Conflict Avoided: Korea
Notes: Meldrim Thomson, New Hampshire’s quintessential Goofy Governor, once sought to arm the state’s National Guard with nuclear weapons. Some thought he wanted nukes to blast the Clamshell Alliance out of the way, so his pals at PSNH could build the Seabrook nuclear power plant. You might think that such a notoriously bellicose individual, twenty-one years old when the Reds crossed the line in Korea, might have managed to get into the fight - but you would be wrong.

Name: Rep. Joseph “Joe” Scarborough (R-FL)
Born: April 9, 1963
Employer: MSNBC
Conflict Avoided: Desert Storm
Notes: A former Republican congresman (1995-2002) turned MSNBC motormouth, Joe qualifies as a politician and a barking head. Where were you during Desert Storm, pal?

Name: Gov. Marc Racicot (R-MT)
Born: July 24, 1948
Employer: The Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: Marc got a BA in 1970, and immediately took the grad school route. Once the war was safely over he went in the service as an Army lawyer. After his gig as governor was up, he got the top spot at the RNC, likely as a reward for helping W. grab Florida.

Name: Sen. J. Danforth “Dan” Quayle (R-IN)
Born: February 4, 1947
Employer: “investment firm in Phoenix” - Dan Quayle Museum
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: The Indiana National Guard was a nice safe place for young Dan during the Vietnam era. Good thing he was from “a good family” - too good to waste their boy in a war.

Name: Sen. Don Nickles (R-OK)
Born: December 6, 1948
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: Another National Guard-type Republican. It must be noted that service in the Guard these days is vastly different from what it was in the Vietnam era. When Don went in in 1970, it was a safe slot. Thanks to guys like Don, that’s no longer true.

Name: Sen. Chester Trent Lott (R-MS)
Born: October 9, 1941
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: We’re not sure why Trent didn’t serve. Maybe he didn’t think he’d look good in Army green. He was a cheerleader in college instead. Wonder how he looked in a cheerleader’s uniform?

Name: I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby
Born: 1950±
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby is **** Cheney’s Chief of Staff. He’s had a string of no-doubt well-paying government jobs in State and Defense. He’s also practiced law. In fact, he was Marc Rich’s lawyer for years. Yes — the Marc Rich whose pardon from President Clinton was excoriated by so many high and mighty Republicans. Maybe if Scooter had been a better lawyer, his client wouldn’t have needed that pardon. Speaking of legal questions, “Scooter” is alleged by some to have traded energy stocks while helping his buddy **** Cheney cook up a new energy policy in secret. He’s also suspected of having inserted the bogus “Niger yellowcake” reference into the President’s State of the Union address. As if all that weren’t enough, he’s also a top suspect in the outing of CIA operative Valeria Plame. Clearly “Scooter” is a ballsy kind of guy, so it’s a complete mystery to us why, when he graduated from Phillips Andover in 1968, he didn’t enlist in the Marines or go Airborne instead of going to Yale.

Name: Rep. Dennis Hastert (R-IL)
Born: January 2, 1942
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: Dennis wasn’t able to serve in the Army in Vietnam because his knees weren’t up to it. He did OK as a wrestler in college, though.

Name: Sen. Judd Gregg (R-NH)
Born: February 14, 1947
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayeer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: Another member of New Hampshire’s hereditary political aristocracy (see also: Charlie Bass and John Sununu) Judd’s daddy was Governor of New Hampshire from 1953 to 1955. Young Judd graduated from Columbia in ‘69 and apparently went straight to BU Law until the coast was clear. For good measure, he got written up for bad knees. They weren’t so bad he couldn’t spend half his term as Governor on the ski slopes.

Name: Rep. Newton Leroy “Newt” Gingrich (R-GA)
Born: June 17, 1943
Employer: Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: A virtuoso in the art of hypocrisy, the former Speaker of the House now claims the Vietnam War was a splendid idea, but at the time he opposed going himself. Newtie also speaks highly of morality, but as a serial adulterer he doesn’t want to get too close to it himself.

Name: Rep. Charles Gwynne Douglas, III (R-NH)
Born: Dec. 2, 1942
Employer: Was U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: Not so notable for bellicosity, but he makes up for it with fervid Republican zeal. Graduated from UNH in 1965, when the draft was pretty strong, but went straight to BU Law. Got out of there in 1968, when it was even stronger. No problem - Ol’ Chuck was “admitted to the bar in 1968 and commenced practice in Manchester, N.H., 1970-1974,” according to an unimpeachable source. How’s he manage to avoid Vietnam? According to that same source, http://bioguide.congress.gov, the future Congressman (NH, 2nd District, 1989-1991) was a “[C]olonel, New Hampshire Army National Guard, 1968 to present.”

Name: Rep. Tom “The Exterminator” DeLay (R-TX)
Born: April 8, 1947
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: One of our most-nominated chickenhawks, Mr. DeLay has said he wanted to serve in Vietnam, but was unable to since all the positions had been taken by blacks and hispanics. We suspect there might be someone in Iraq today who would be willing to trade places with Mr. DeLay …

Name: Richard “****” Cheney (R-WY)
Born: 1942
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: Says he had “other priorities.” You bet he had other priorities. Imagine how early in life you must begin scheming to get away with what this guy has. He was too busy thinking about Halliburton to go fight Charlie.

Name: Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R-GA)
Born: 1943
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: There are chickenhawks, and then there are chickenhawks. Saxby Chambliss is a chickenhawk supreme. He got himself elected to the Senate by casting aspersions on the patriotism of the incumbent, Democrat Max Cleland. Cleland lost three limbs serving his country in Vietnam. Saxby Chambliss was unable to serve because of his bad knees, but somehow is able to totter along as a recreational runner.

Name: Gov. Jeb Bush (R-FL)
Born: 1953
Employer: Florida Taxpayers
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: When Jeb was younger he managed to avoid fighting for democracy in Vietnam. When his older brother’s future job was on the line, though, he had no trouble fighting democracy.

Name: George W. Bush (R-TX)
Born: 1946
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: You know when a guy walks away from a National Guard obligation during wartime and gets away with it, he must come from “a good family.” Not that his daddy had anything to do with his getting a Guard slot in the first place - oh, no …

Name: Rep. Roy Blunt (R-MO)
Born: January 10, 1950
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: The Congressman from Missouri and House Majority Whip who’s so concerned about defending America that offered an amendment to the law creating the Homeland Security department that would have made it tougher to sell cigarettes over the ‘Net. It wouldn’t have helped the whole country, but the part of it that belongs to Phillip Morris would have benefited. Born just about the right time for Vietnam, somehow Blunt was at Southwest Baptist University when he could have been keeping the ‘Cong out of Chillicothe, MO.

Name: Rep. Charlie Bass (R-NH)
Born: January 8, 1952
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: When your old man’s U.S. Representative Perkins Bass (2nd District, NH, 1955-1962), and your grandfather’s Governor Robert T. Bass (NH, 1911-1913), chances are slim you’ll ever get called “Private Bass,” even if you are born in 1952.

Name: Rep. Roscoe Bartlett (R-MD)
Born: June 3, 1926
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: WWII
Notes: Nominated as a chickenhawk by a constituent, Roscoe Bartlett brings to his job on the House Armed Services committee a mind that’s unbiased and unprejudiced — though he had turned 18 by D-Day, when there was still plenty of opportunity to become a bona fide member of the Greatest Generation©, Roscoe let the war go by without putting on a uniform. We don’t know why; perhaps you could ask him.

Name: Sen. George Allen (R-VA)
Born: 1952
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: George Allen is in the Senate, and wants to be in the White House. Where he belongs is in the Chickenhawk Hall of Fame.
Allen graduated from Palos Verde High in 1970, according to Wikipedia. In those days he “was a supporter of Richard Nixon and the Vietnam War, although he did not serve in that conflict, taking a student deferment instead.”
During his 2006 re-election campaign Allen has “emphasized his dedication to military and veteran issues … during his term in the Senate,” according to the Hampton Roads Virginian-Pilot’s Warren Fiske. But the Disabled American Veterans only give him a rating of 50 — mediocre-at-best.
Allen also favors a flag-burning amendment. Wouldn’t you know it?
He probably wants to amend it to cover the Confederate flag as well as Old Glory. The mugshot is from the 2003 movie “Gods and Generals,” in which he played a Confederate officer.
Allen’s campaign ads are made by Scott Howell. Picking the right guy was apparently a no-brainer for Allen. Howell’s resume includes the Saxby Chambliss campaign against Max Cleland, and the infamous Swift Boat ads against John Kerry.Chickenhawks:
Politicans Platoon

Name: Gov. Meldrim “Mel” Thomson (R-Orford)
Born: March 8, 1929
Employer: His Daddy’s Publishing Co, Inc.
Conflict Avoided: Korea
Notes: Meldrim Thomson, New Hampshire’s quintessential Goofy Governor, once sought to arm the state’s National Guard with nuclear weapons. Some thought he wanted nukes to blast the Clamshell Alliance out of the way, so his pals at PSNH could build the Seabrook nuclear power plant. You might think that such a notoriously bellicose individual, twenty-one years old when the Reds crossed the line in Korea, might have managed to get into the fight - but you would be wrong.

Name: Rep. Joseph “Joe” Scarborough (R-FL)
Born: April 9, 1963
Employer: MSNBC
Conflict Avoided: Desert Storm
Notes: A former Republican congresman (1995-2002) turned MSNBC motormouth, Joe qualifies as a politician and a barking head. Where were you during Desert Storm, pal?

Name: Gov. Marc Racicot (R-MT)
Born: July 24, 1948
Employer: The Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: Marc got a BA in 1970, and immediately took the grad school route. Once the war was safely over he went in the service as an Army lawyer. After his gig as governor was up, he got the top spot at the RNC, likely as a reward for helping W. grab Florida.

Name: Sen. J. Danforth “Dan” Quayle (R-IN)
Born: February 4, 1947
Employer: “investment firm in Phoenix” - Dan Quayle Museum
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: The Indiana National Guard was a nice safe place for young Dan during the Vietnam era. Good thing he was from “a good family” - too good to waste their boy in a war.

Name: Sen. Don Nickles (R-OK)
Born: December 6, 1948
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: Another National Guard-type Republican. It must be noted that service in the Guard these days is vastly different from what it was in the Vietnam era. When Don went in in 1970, it was a safe slot. Thanks to guys like Don, that’s no longer true.

Name: Sen. Chester Trent Lott (R-MS)
Born: October 9, 1941
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: We’re not sure why Trent didn’t serve. Maybe he didn’t think he’d look good in Army green. He was a cheerleader in college instead. Wonder how he looked in a cheerleader’s uniform?

Name: I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby
Born: 1950±
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby is **** Cheney’s Chief of Staff. He’s had a string of no-doubt well-paying government jobs in State and Defense. He’s also practiced law. In fact, he was Marc Rich’s lawyer for years. Yes — the Marc Rich whose pardon from President Clinton was excoriated by so many high and mighty Republicans. Maybe if Scooter had been a better lawyer, his client wouldn’t have needed that pardon. Speaking of legal questions, “Scooter” is alleged by some to have traded energy stocks while helping his buddy **** Cheney cook up a new energy policy in secret. He’s also suspected of having inserted the bogus “Niger yellowcake” reference into the President’s State of the Union address. As if all that weren’t enough, he’s also a top suspect in the outing of CIA operative Valeria Plame. Clearly “Scooter” is a ballsy kind of guy, so it’s a complete mystery to us why, when he graduated from Phillips Andover in 1968, he didn’t enlist in the Marines or go Airborne instead of going to Yale.

Name: Rep. Dennis Hastert (R-IL)
Born: January 2, 1942
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: Dennis wasn’t able to serve in the Army in Vietnam because his knees weren’t up to it. He did OK as a wrestler in college, though.

Name: Sen. Judd Gregg (R-NH)
Born: February 14, 1947
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayeer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: Another member of New Hampshire’s hereditary political aristocracy (see also: Charlie Bass and John Sununu) Judd’s daddy was Governor of New Hampshire from 1953 to 1955. Young Judd graduated from Columbia in ‘69 and apparently went straight to BU Law until the coast was clear. For good measure, he got written up for bad knees. They weren’t so bad he couldn’t spend half his term as Governor on the ski slopes.

Name: Rep. Newton Leroy “Newt” Gingrich (R-GA)
Born: June 17, 1943
Employer: Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: A virtuoso in the art of hypocrisy, the former Speaker of the House now claims the Vietnam War was a splendid idea, but at the time he opposed going himself. Newtie also speaks highly of morality, but as a serial adulterer he doesn’t want to get too close to it himself.

Name: Rep. Charles Gwynne Douglas, III (R-NH)
Born: Dec. 2, 1942
Employer: Was U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: Not so notable for bellicosity, but he makes up for it with fervid Republican zeal. Graduated from UNH in 1965, when the draft was pretty strong, but went straight to BU Law. Got out of there in 1968, when it was even stronger. No problem - Ol’ Chuck was “admitted to the bar in 1968 and commenced practice in Manchester, N.H., 1970-1974,” according to an unimpeachable source. How’s he manage to avoid Vietnam? According to that same source, http://bioguide.congress.gov, the future Congressman (NH, 2nd District, 1989-1991) was a “[C]olonel, New Hampshire Army National Guard, 1968 to present.”

Name: Rep. Tom “The Exterminator” DeLay (R-TX)
Born: April 8, 1947
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: One of our most-nominated chickenhawks, Mr. DeLay has said he wanted to serve in Vietnam, but was unable to since all the positions had been taken by blacks and hispanics. We suspect there might be someone in Iraq today who would be willing to trade places with Mr. DeLay …

Name: Richard “****” Cheney (R-WY)
Born: 1942
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: Says he had “other priorities.” You bet he had other priorities. Imagine how early in life you must begin scheming to get away with what this guy has. He was too busy thinking about Halliburton to go fight Charlie.

Name: Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R-GA)
Born: 1943
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: There are chickenhawks, and then there are chickenhawks. Saxby Chambliss is a chickenhawk supreme. He got himself elected to the Senate by casting aspersions on the patriotism of the incumbent, Democrat Max Cleland. Cleland lost three limbs serving his country in Vietnam. Saxby Chambliss was unable to serve because of his bad knees, but somehow is able to totter along as a recreational runner.

Name: Gov. Jeb Bush (R-FL)
Born: 1953
Employer: Florida Taxpayers
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: When Jeb was younger he managed to avoid fighting for democracy in Vietnam. When his older brother’s future job was on the line, though, he had no trouble fighting democracy.

Name: George W. Bush (R-TX)
Born: 1946
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: You know when a guy walks away from a National Guard obligation during wartime and gets away with it, he must come from “a good family.” Not that his daddy had anything to do with his getting a Guard slot in the first place - oh, no …

Name: Rep. Roy Blunt (R-MO)
Born: January 10, 1950
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: The Congressman from Missouri and House Majority Whip who’s so concerned about defending America that offered an amendment to the law creating the Homeland Security department that would have made it tougher to sell cigarettes over the ‘Net. It wouldn’t have helped the whole country, but the part of it that belongs to Phillip Morris would have benefited. Born just about the right time for Vietnam, somehow Blunt was at Southwest Baptist University when he could have been keeping the ‘Cong out of Chillicothe, MO.

Name: Rep. Charlie Bass (R-NH)
Born: January 8, 1952
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: When your old man’s U.S. Representative Perkins Bass (2nd District, NH, 1955-1962), and your grandfather’s Governor Robert T. Bass (NH, 1911-1913), chances are slim you’ll ever get called “Private Bass,” even if you are born in 1952.

Name: Rep. Roscoe Bartlett (R-MD)
Born: June 3, 1926
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: WWII
Notes: Nominated as a chickenhawk by a constituent, Roscoe Bartlett brings to his job on the House Armed Services committee a mind that’s unbiased and unprejudiced — though he had turned 18 by D-Day, when there was still plenty of opportunity to become a bona fide member of the Greatest Generation©, Roscoe let the war go by without putting on a uniform. We don’t know why; perhaps you could ask him.

Name: Sen. George Allen (R-VA)
Born: 1952
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: George Allen is in the Senate, and wants to be in the White House. Where he belongs is in the Chickenhawk Hall of Fame.
Allen graduated from Palos Verde High in 1970, according to Wikipedia. In those days he “was a supporter of Richard Nixon and the Vietnam War, although he did not serve in that conflict, taking a student deferment instead.”
During his 2006 re-election campaign Allen has “emphasized his dedication to military and veteran issues … during his term in the Senate,” according to the Hampton Roads Virginian-Pilot’s Warren Fiske. But the Disabled American Veterans only give him a rating of 50 — mediocre-at-best.
Allen also favors a flag-burning amendment. Wouldn’t you know it?
He probably wants to amend it to cover the Confederate flag as well as Old Glory. The mugshot is from the 2003 movie “Gods and Generals,” in which he played a Confederate officer.
Allen’s campaign ads are made by Scott Howell. Picking the right guy was apparently a no-brainer for Allen. Howell’s resume includes the Saxby Chambliss campaign against Max Cleland, and the infamous Swift Boat ads against John Kerry.

loganinkosovo
05-06-2007, 05:21 AM
And how many on the other side of the building didn't even have the nads to join the National Guard but took their student deferments or ran to England and Russia?

May I remind you that the National Guard was called up in WWI, WWII, Korea and certain units went to Vietnam.

I guess we could flog and brand these deserters with a D on both cheeks like they did in the civil war......works for me.

They ran out on their fellow soldiers which in my book is the untimate crime they commited.

Notlim
05-06-2007, 09:53 AM
by law these guys are desertors,and if caught they will be sentenced and convicted.
After all the fuzz of this been a volunteer army is sad when someone consider to have had enough not been able to leave. some of this men waited till they where back from overseas to leave the service, I think they should be allow to have a say if it is still volunteer army, if not the draft should be reinstated and have every ablebody do his part for the war on terror, I consider that a lot of enlisted people leave there families, friends etc etc without knowing where is the end of the tunnel? politicians dont know, the irakis dont know either! do you guys know? can you tell when all this guys are coming back? if the response is we will be fighting for years to come and it will take a couple of generations to pacify irak are you willing to spend 15 to 20 years in irak while spending 4 years total time at home? is that the vision and the plan?

Hollis
05-06-2007, 12:12 PM
by law these guys are desertors,and if caught they will be sentenced and convicted.
After all the fuzz of this been a volunteer army is sad when someone consider to have had enough not been able to leave. some of this men waited till they where back from overseas to leave the service, I think they should be allow to have a say if it is still volunteer army, if not the draft should be reinstated and have every ablebody do his part for the war on terror, I consider that a lot of enlisted people leave there families, friends etc etc without knowing where is the end of the tunnel? politicians dont know, the irakis dont know either! do you guys know? can you tell when all this guys are coming back? if the response is we will be fighting for years to come and it will take a couple of generations to pacify irak are you willing to spend 15 to 20 years in irak while spending 4 years total time at home? is that the vision and the plan?


So you know Chicken Littel personally and follow his example. BTW... Of all people I am the least to point out someone writting skills. It is nice to meet someone who is worser at English than me.

shocker1
05-06-2007, 12:18 PM
Name: Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R-GA)
Born: 1943
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: There are chickenhawks, and then there are chickenhawks. Saxby Chambliss is a chickenhawk supreme. He got himself elected to the Senate by casting aspersions on the patriotism of the incumbent, Democrat Max Cleland. Cleland lost three limbs serving his country in Vietnam. Saxby Chambliss was unable to serve because of his bad knees, but somehow is able to totter along as a recreational runner.
Spew all the crap you want about my Senator but he has helped bring lots of money here and jobs. Max was a great man in Washington but his wounds left him no sense of duty to the voters of North Georgia. So I will judge these people by what they do in office for my district not their decisions when they were in their teens and twentys. I am sure todays Dems would cheering on anyone who avoided the Vietnam war. If we hung our decision to vote on if someone served our decisions would be misguided and ignorant.

Hollis
05-06-2007, 12:18 PM
.

What a waste of band width. Jeepers you spread more manure than a heard of cows.

President Bush was in the National Guard. Less than 3 million Americans served in Viet-Nam. BTW DID YOU.. IF you did not that you Avoided that war as much as anyone else. Your excuse is meaningless...even if you were not born then, because, as your manure pointed out. YOU DID NOT SERVE.

So what about the almost 300 Million Americans who did not serve, they are all draft dodgers too?

BTW, I did serve, I was on the DMZ, 3rd Marines in 1969, you can google Mutter's Ridge. I SUPPORT THE PRESIDENT AND WAR...

BTW, you will get no respect from me by supporting Haj.

Maybe read this article.... and figure out what the culture of defeat is, your pandering it.

http://www.25thaviation.org/johnkerry/id27.htm

lider_r
05-06-2007, 12:36 PM
President Bush was in the National Guard. Less than 3 million Americans served in Viet-Nam. BTW DID YOU.. IF you did not that you Avoided that war as much as anyone else. Your excuse is meaningless...even if you were not born then, because, as your manure pointed out. YOU DID NOT SERVE.


rofl

hear that everyone? if you were born after the war then your dodger!

And to all those embryo's and sperms to be- your a bunch of yellow bellied dodgers as well!

Your going off the deep end dude.



BTW, you will get no respect from me by supporting Haj


So anyone who isn't on the neo-con side is the enemy?


Maybe read this article.... and figure out what the culture of defeat is, your pandering it.

defeat? but it was mission accomplished 4 years ago, remember?

Notlim
05-06-2007, 04:05 PM
So you know Chicken Littel personally and follow his example. BTW... Of all people I am the least to point out someone writting skills. It is nice to meet someone who is worser at English than me.

enchante de faire votre conaissance,
english is not my first language, writing is hard,
back on topic, if someone does not want to go back and decides he had enough is there a mechanism in wich he can avoid not to reenlist?
and i dont see a problem coming to canada if someone decides to do so,
maybe hell sign in the CF who knows?

JKD
05-06-2007, 04:14 PM
One of them will probably grow up to be the Democratic nominee for President of the United States.

Or maybe dems like these will grow up to be their party's presidential nominee
http://www.democrats.org/page/content/fightingdems/nominees/

Dakota435
05-06-2007, 06:00 PM
enchante de faire votre conaissance,
english is not my first language, writing is hard,
back on topic, if someone does not want to go back and decides he had enough is there a mechanism in wich he can avoid not to reenlist?
and i dont see a problem coming to canada if someone decides to do so,
maybe hell sign in the CF who knows?

You don't mean reenlist, but avoiding going on another tour during an enlistment don't you? That would be desertion. And deserting something you volunteered for is about as low as you can go. In any case, I would WANT deserters out of the country, when they get out of jail of course.

Anyway, if someone joins CF they might end up in combat in Afghanistan anyway. Should Canadians who don't want to go back desert? Where will THEY run to?

Dakota435
05-06-2007, 06:02 PM
Or maybe dems like these will grow up to be their party's presidential nominee
http://www.democrats.org/page/content/fightingdems/nominees/

If the Dems can find a presidential nominee who doesn't want to surrender to AQ in Iraq I'd be ecstatic

Hollis
05-06-2007, 07:36 PM
rofl





You really have poor, very poor comprehension. I was using your logic...........

Your a total waste of time, a pet rock has better comprehension than you.

Hollis
05-06-2007, 07:41 PM
enchante de faire votre conaissance,
english is not my first language, writing is hard,
back on topic, if someone does not want to go back and decides he had enough is there a mechanism in wich he can avoid not to reenlist?
and i dont see a problem coming to canada if someone decides to do so,
maybe hell sign in the CF who knows?


Merci, le plaisir est tout le mien.

I think Dakota, answered you. I really don't know what is in their contract.

Why would you want deserters in the CF? What do you think the military does? If you need a military, you don't need deserters.