Reestablishment of the Cross Of Iron

[Zerstoerer]

Here you can sign a petition to the German parliament, that it shall discuss the reintroduction of the honourable/legendary/infamous Cross of Iron as a military decoration for deserved soldiers.
(which most likely won't happen anyway, but it's always worth a try) p-)

http://itc.napier.ac.uk/e-Petition/bundestag/view_petition.asp?PetitionID=404 (German language)

thank you!

[IronFinn]

Nice. Does one have to be german to sign this?

[Zerstoerer]

Nice. Does one have to be german to sign this?

I have no idea. But since this is no election and no specific amount of 'votes' is necessary, I think everybody can sign it. It's just to show your support.

[Hellfish]

I'd like to see it reinstated. It's an old German tradition that shouldn't be tarnished by the politics of WWII. I mean, you still use the Maltese Cross on tanks, right?

[Count Lippe]

I think there should be some acts that require an award like the EK before the "public" starts crying for it. And I don't see that happen in the near future, as Germay does not put its soldiers ro real risk yet.:roll:

[Macs.]

I think there should be some acts that require an award like the EK before the "public" starts crying for it. And I don't see that happen in the near future, as Germay does not put its soldiers ro real risk yet.:roll:

No real risk ?

There already have been fights involving german troops, from Kosovo to Afghanistan. For example in Afghanistan there has been serval firefights, including one which lasted hours. Not to mention KSK-Operations.

As long as our troops are stationed in crisis-regions there is a need to have such a medal atleast ready. And also the Iron-Cross hasn't only be awarded for bravery under fire.

[Count Lippe]

You're right. Our troops are risking their lives each day, but pssstttt... don't let the public know!p-)

You know, something like the EK should be earned in an operation that's labeled "WAR", not reconstruction, peacekeeping, or playing police... and as you will agree, our politicians won't send German soldiers into a "WAR" anytime soon...

There surely are medals for bravery and stuff in the BW that fill the EK's role.

[ShotOver]

I'd like to see it reinstated. It's an old German tradition that shouldn't be tarnished by the politics of WWII. I mean, you still use the Maltese Cross on tanks, right?

Not to be a parrot, but I agree with hellfish here. I do no honestly see why your mob cannot re-instate the medal. You guys used it in WW1 and before, so not now.

[Macs.]

You're right. Our troops are risking their lives each day, but pssstttt... don't let the public know!p-)

You know, something like the EK should be earned in an operation that's labeled "WAR", not reconstruction, peacekeeping, or playing police... and as you will agree, our politicians won't send German soldiers into a "WAR" anytime soon...

There surely are medals for bravery and stuff in the BW that fill the EK's role.

Which one ? :|

Someone who spend his time in the base repairing vehicles shouldn't get the same medal as (for example) someone who showed bravery under fire. There is no dedicated medal for such bravery, but there should be one.

Our troops haven't been send to a large-scale war, but they have been send into situations where they had to use their weapons and came under enemy fire. IMHO there is not much different between showing bravery in a large-scale war ala World War 1 and 2 or during a firefight near Kunduz.

[Mastermind]

What is wrong with "The Cross of Valor" or "the Bravery Under fire" badge, or the "Golden Seal of National Approval"...why does it have to be the Iron Cross again with all the sourness that entails to everyone else ...let us not forget, Germany has not been a very nice neighbor for much of the last century...I think the "Iron Cross" might just be a bit tainted for now.

And, before I get slammed....I do not intend to impune the bravery and the honor and the integrity of the brave soldiers who served in any country what-so-ever.

It's just that there are still quite a few folks around who remember too much. Give it another 25 years and it will pretty much be all forgotten.

[muck]

I have signed it and persuaded my entire family to join me. Not because we are militarists - in fact my parents are Greens - but because we all agree that soldiers whose lifes are at stake abroad should be awarded a real valor medal if they have shown bravery or other kinds of exemplary behaviour in dangerous situations, and not the same medal a soldier gets just for 30 years of faithful cleric work. That's just mendacious.

As well mendacious as the following: Because additionally, I'd like to see a German equivalent to the Purple Heart. For example, so far 38 Soldiers of the German ISAF contingent have been injured in firefights, mine explosions, mortar attacks on their bases and suicide attacks since 2002.
I remember the story of a soldier who lost one eye and the left cnemis in a suicide attack on the unarmoured bus he was travelling in (Happened some time in 2003, and the suicide attack killed for soldiers and injoured about twenty others). What did that man get? The German ISAF mission medal in Bronze (III. class). The same award a cook would receive for spending only 30 days (!) in Afghanistan.
:bash:

[Weasel]

What does such a medal mean? Do we still live in Dark Ages of blood and honour mentality? Do we decorate our police officers, nurses, firefighters who - especially the last two groups - do a lot more for mankind than any soldier?

And we all know how generous the Bundeswehr distributes tributes and promotions. :roll:

[Roy Batty]

If I signed that my Grandfather, who last saw Germany from the back of his Harley as a dispatch rider, would kick my ass. To soon IMHO.

[muck]

What does such a medal mean? Do we still live in Dark Ages of blood and honour mentality? Do we decorate our police officers, nurses, firefighters who - especially the last two groups - do a lot more for mankind than any soldier?

And we all know how generous the Bundeswehr distributes tributes and promotions. :roll:

What a nonsensitive comment. Even people who have a critical look on military contexts can acknowledge the unfairness of the situation in a country that sends soldiers abroad and does not waste even one thought about a soldier who returns wounded. A nurse, a firefighter or a policemen can feel that the major part of the society pays tribute to their work. Even in their daily routine they will more often receive thank and warm gestures than a soldier for their actions.
Of course you can reason now that a medal won't bring a man his eyesight or his leg back. But I assume none joins the Army with a death wish, hence to honour those who had to pay the price is the least thing a nation can do. And that is not the mentality of the Dark Age for the very reason that nearly all other countries continue that tradition until today. I am not that fan of militarism and military traditions, but the present situation violates my sense of justice. Since you seem to be a person with common sense, you should feel the same way.

[Kilgor]

considering it dates well before the tainted ww2 period, there is no reason why it shouldn't return.

[IronFinn]

There surely are medals for bravery and stuff in the BW that fill the EK's role.


What is wrong with "The Cross of Valor" or "the Bravery Under fire" badge, or the "Golden Seal of National Approval"...why does it have to be the Iron Cross again with all the sourness that entails to everyone else

No medal bears such impressive "glow" that a Iron Cross does world wide. Heck, even I have "only" 2nd class cross I feel it is a pearl of my small collection of medals.

Now I have signed it too, hopefully my little contribution helps.

[Macs.]

What some people here seem to forget:

The Iron Cross as a symbol is already "back" since decades. On Soldiers, Vehicles, Tanks, Ships, Buildings... Even UAV's.

There are even medals which are pretty much a Iron Cross. Take a look at the Ehrenkreuz:

http://blog.mueschen.info/wp-content/myfotos/diverse/ehrenkreuz190.jpg

[muck]

Indeed, it is already a part of our history. Even soldiers of WW2 are until today allowed to wear their Iron Cross (with erased Svastika of course). Just the problem concerning the Ehrenkreuz is - it does not exclusevely honour soldierly achievements and bravery.
As I said, they for example awarded it to the commanding officer of the checkpoint in Prizren who led the "defeat strike" against those two Serbians in their Lada back in 1999 as well to a Military chaplain who loyally heard the confessions of his soldiers for 30 years or whoever else, imagine any other cause of that category.

[capixaba]

No reason at all not to re instate it. It is a piece of German miliitary history, which goes far beyond the Nazi era - remember all those guys who fought and died in WW1 - it didn't have a swastika stuck in the middle of it then. Also after WW2 there were re issues of WW2 medals (1957 version) minus the swastika,so ex soldiers including senior members of the West German military could wear medals they had earned in public. So if that was ok back then just over a decade after the war, I don't see a problem issuing a new dated version, perhaps with a different ribbon. Now a lot more water has passed under the bridge since then - and I have relatives who fought and died against the Germans in both World Wars.
I'm sure there was a photo thread on Axis History a while back of serving German military wearing various WW2 (de - nazified) medals.

[Kitsune]

This petition is a matter for Germans only. Say your piece about it, if you must, but please, don't try to enlist. In my opinion, it was not necessary to post that one here in the first place.






@Mastermind:


let us not forget, Germany has not been a very nice neighbor for much of the last century...I think the "Iron Cross" might just be a bit tainted for now.

Oh really? Perhaps I should remind you that there was nothing wrong with Germany as a neighbour from 1901 to 1914 (and the 29 years before that as well), that WWI was not started only by Germany (essentially, it tried to defend itself like the Isarelis did in 1967, the thing that ultimately caused the war was the Russian military mobilisation, followed by the French one), that it was a good neighbour from 1919 to 1933 (not that one can say the same about France or Poland during this time) and then that it was an extremely nice neighbour from 1945 to 2000 (not that one can say the same about the Sovietunion during this time). And even the latter period is, if I see that correctly, more than half of the whole bloody century. In other words, your statement can be classified as flatly wrong, can't it?

That leaves the bad twelve years of Nazism, and even here I want to point out that, in contrast to the short version which is so often presented by the media (or even German politicians of these days), it was by no means Germany which is solely responsible for WWII alone. France and Britain had a lot to do with it as well and the Sovietunion is so deeply involved in it that not even the hairs stick out. Generally, from the German perspective I fail to see what was so injust about WWI and not everything about WWII was injust as well. (For example: I simply cannot blame any German soldier for figthing against France in Summer 1940 - France declared war on Germany, not the other way around and, having actually a slightly larger military, it was far from helpless either - so, can one really blame those German soldiers that their did their job instead of joining the Resistance and starting to shoot on their own countrymen? Is there any country in the world whose soldiers would have done this in that situation?).

Let's keep in mind that, like others, our boys fought to defend their nation - something that was perhaps not entirely unnecessary considering the treatments Germany received after every defeat (just look one a map and compare the Kaiser's Germany with Merkel's Germany and you see what I mean). Since the Iron Cross is no Nazi symbol either -there is one on most vehicles of the German military to this very day - I fail to see why it should be tainted, thank you very much. But of course, you are entitled to your own opinion. (If however I would state my opinion which I have about you because you think this way, it would certainly get me banned. So I better keep that to myself).

[Kroforit]

Was Iron Cross ever awarded to german soldiers for defending their own homeland? Besides the retreat during ww2.

if not, then it shouldn't be reinstated but a new award or medal should be invented.

[Vandervahn]

Was Iron Cross ever awarded to german soldiers for defending their own homeland? Besides the retreat during ww2.

if not, then it shouldn't be reinstated but a new award or medal should be invented.

And why that? The Iron Cross was/is an award for exceptional soldierism. What difference does the setting for that make? And besids the retreat in the war, Germany has not exactly been forced to defend its homeland as of late.


What is wrong with "The Cross of Valor" or "the Bravery Under fire" badge, or the "Golden Seal of National Approval"...why does it have to be the Iron Cross again with all the sourness that entails to everyone else ...let us not forget, Germany has not been a very nice neighbor for much of the last century...I think the "Iron Cross" might just be a bit tainted for now. ...

The Iron Cross isn´t tainted. The institution that awarded it is.

Also, the Iron Cross is the one and only award that is in accordance with AND a fitting symbol for soldierism above the line of duty in the german military tradition. While most other nations indulge in all these gawdy awards ranging from truly exceptional service to dutifully taking the Commanders´ dog for a walk, the Iron Cross in its simplicity (really made of "crude" metals, set aside the later WW2 abundance of vegetation and gems attached to it) and its blindness to rank, other achievements or conduct makes it all the more powerful and fitting. All the more since it is the official symbol of Germanys defense (Bundeswehr and the ministry alike).

And lets be honest here, a soldier is a soldier and intended to do a soldiers job, and personally I see no justification for handing out awards for a soldier coming under fire, for being on duty, for being wounded (which basically celebrates that someone somewhere fooked up) and all the other little insignificant "achievements" that same soldier basically accepted when he/she signed the contract. Only for exceptional, outstanding feats.

[muck]

Was Iron Cross ever awarded to german soldiers for defending their own homeland? Besides the retreat during ww2.

if not, then it shouldn't be reinstated but a new award or medal should be invented.

Poor argumenation in my eyes. You would not question the sense of honouring the bravery of an American soldier during Operation Iraqi Freedom, or would you? Additionally, the Iron Cross was first established over a century before the Second World War started. It is a medal for paying tribute to bravery shown during wartimes, nevermind in which phase of the battle or the war the honoured action happened.

[Kitsune]

Was Iron Cross ever awarded to german soldiers for defending their own homeland? Besides the retreat during ww2.

That view is an interesting one. What did the British do in WWI for example? One could say that in a way they weren't defending Britain since that hadn't been attacked by anyone. Or what about the Americans or the Canadians in that war? What about the US Forces in Korea and Vietnam? Gulfwar I and II? The Soviets in Afghanistan? In none of these wars the "homeland" was defended, wasn't it? So, as you can see, there must be a way around this problem of yours: one can hand out medals to soldiers not defending their homeland without tainting them.
Somehow it can be done.

[California Joe]

It's a badass award. They should use it. With all the clusters and sh*t.

They should also bring back the Blue Max.

[Kitsune]

@California Joe:


Bravo! That's the spirit. You deserve to be declared honorary German, man. I really wish that an attitude like yours would be a bit more common around here...

[Kilgor]

It's a badass award. They should use it. With all the clusters and sh*t.

They should also bring back the Blue Max.

That too, oak leaves, diamonds, swords, all the trimmings !

[California Joe]

@California Joe:


Bravo! That's the spirit. You deserve to be declared honorary German, man. I really wish that an attitude like yours would be a bit more common around here...

I'm dead serious too. Sure, everyone knows the Nazis were bad etc. But the Iron Cross is just flat out cool.

[Nano]

Iron Cross is badass in my book and should be reinstated. Whenever I see WW2 German footage with soldiers being awarded the Iron Cross I make a subconscious distinction between Nazis and that individual soldier's actions for having earned that Iron Cross as a German soldier and not as him need being a Nazi to have earned one. I think Germans should start making that distinction.

[oswald]

It's a badass award. They should use it. With all the clusters and sh*t.

They should also bring back the Blue Max.
x2
It dates to 1813. Nothing "Nazi" about it.

The Iron Cross was founded on 10 March 1813 in Breslau and awarded to soldiers during the Wars of Liberation against Napoleon.

[RECON DOC]

It's a badass award. They should use it. With all the clusters and sh*t.

They should also bring back the Blue Max.

I'll see you never wear that medal.

[Kroforit]

Poor argumenation in my eyes. You would not question the sense of honouring the bravery of an American soldier during Operation Iraqi Freedom, or would you? Additionally, the Iron Cross was first established over a century before the Second World War started. It is a medal for paying tribute to bravery shown during wartimes, nevermind in which phase of the battle or the war the honoured action happened.

An honorable action during a bigger disshonorable action is not worth a praise.

[Aptrganga]

Hopefully no mercenary fighting for this infamous FRG ever is awarded with this old German order like the Cross of Iron.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Personaly I don't see anything wrong from a political perspective, which is what everyone is arguing about.

From a military perspective, even though it is in many ways it is a 'badass' award, it was also often awarded for reasons other than bravery which in my eyes lessens it's effect.



An honorable action during a bigger disshonorable action is not worth a praise.

Wrong.

[muck]

x2
It dates to 1813. Nothing "Nazi" about it.
Absolutely right. Even some known jewish soldiers and a few women received it for bravery. Bravery is in my eyes an apolitical virtue.


Wrong.
Absolutely right again. Considering the fact that the majority of the German soldiers were apolitically and especially after the Invasion of Sovietuniom were drafted unwillingly it is surprising that some of them have shown courage nonetheless. The only regulation that has to be valid furthermore must be that the possibility is given to disenfranchise the award if the wearer behaves dishonorable, just because in some times they had not a good understanding of the word "honorable".

[California Joe]

Personaly I don't see anything wrong from a political perspective, which is what everyone is arguing about.

From a military perspective, even though it is in many ways it is a 'badass' award, it was also often awarded for reasons other than bravery which in my eyes lessens it's effect.


I agree it seemed to be a catch all kinda medal in some cases, I think this unfortunately happens in a lot of militaries though. Unless its the VC or the CMOH. I've heard a lot of American vets complain about the watering down of the Bronze Star...

[Macs.]

12th Century:
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l314/Macs3000/TeutonicGrandMaster.jpg

2007:
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l314/Macs3000/800px-Barracuda_av_dr.jpg

[Kippari]

It will take a long time for Germany to recover their patriotism after the WW2. Even though the ehrenkreutz is very old german symbol, it's use kinda reached it's peak during hitlers reign, which makes it still very controversial. As for example my German godfather said that us Finns tend to know next to nothing about our history, but we're still very patriotic and the things are quite another way around in Germany. His father was part of the hitler jugend and was quite nazist till his death.
So what i'm saying is that the iron cross won't me to use as an award until all the people who have known someone who has lived during the nazi reign are passed away.

[MkH]

I say to hell with the pc bs. It was not an award for nazism, but for exceptional heroism and skill since the 12th century. Granted that during those few darker years in the German history it might have been awarded for some reasons other than those mentioned, but it's history dates way beyond the years of national socialism.



Also, it has a very cool ring to it.

[Kroforit]

Absolutely right. Even some known jewish soldiers and a few women received it for bravery. Bravery is in my eyes an apolitical virtue.

Absolutely right again. Considering the fact that the majority of the German soldiers were apolitically and especially after the Invasion of Sovietuniom were drafted unwillingly it is surprising that some of them have shown courage nonetheless. The only regulation that has to be valid furthermore must be that the possibility is given to disenfranchise the award if the wearer behaves dishonorable, just because in some times they had not a good understanding of the word "honorable".

Virtue? dont mix virtue with unquestionable loyalty to nation that invades another country.

[Kroforit]

I say to hell with the pc bs. It was not an award for nazism, but for exceptional heroism and skill since the 12th century. Granted that during those few darker years in the German history it might have been awarded for some reasons other than those mentioned, but it's history dates way beyond the years of national socialism.



Also, it has a very cool ring to it.

It doesnt matter if iron cross reminds of nazism or not, Germany has been involved in expansionism only, when iron cross was awarded.

[Macs.]

Kroforit, what's your problem ?

[muck]

Virtue? dont mix virtue with unquestionable loyalty to nation that invades another country.

I wonder if you only refer to the Second World War or to the entire history of the Iron Cross. Because based on your line of reasoning, we should quickly abolish many other awards. Let's quickly start with disenfranchising the Silver Stars and Bronze Stars American Soldiers received during Operation Iraqi Freedom, they unquestionably followed the orders of their nation to illegally invade a sovereign state. But being politically motivated is not the sense of an award, or is it?

The Iron Cross has a long tradition of being a symbol for bravery, freedom and valor. Only twelve years of that history have scratched it's reputation, just because they embossed the Swastika on it.

My Grandpa fought on the Krim peninsula, he often told me many stories about his fellows and how they condemned the war. Nonetheless they fought to survive and to win. Not to gain victory but to return to their homes. Many brave and heroic actions have been happened then, only just to save a comrade for example, not to prove loyality to the Führer.

[Kroforit]

I wonder if you only refer to the Second World War or to the entire history of the Iron Cross. Because based on your line of reasoning, we should quickly abolish many other awards. Let's quickly start with disenfranchising the Silver Stars and Bronze Stars American Soldiers received during Operation Iraqi Freedom, they unquestionably followed the orders of their nation to illegally invade a sovereign state. But being politically motivated is not the sense of an award, or is it?

The Iron Cross has a long tradition of being a symbol for bravery, freedom and valor. Only twelve years of that history have scratched it's reputation, just because they embossed the Swastika on it.

My Grandpa fought on the Krim peninsula, he often told me many stories about his fellows and how they condemned the war. Nonetheless they fought to survive and to win. Not to gain victory but to return to their homes. Many brave and heroic actions have been happened then, only just to save a comrade for example, not to prove loyality to the Führer.

Using American war in Iraq has no effect here since i dont sympathize with that either.

Sure they acted bravely to return home but why were they there in the first place? Im pretty sure entire history of Iron Cross doesn't involve Germany saving anyone. Dont get me wrong, im not singling out Germany here or trying to change how medals should be awarded. We all know that awards are issued within the boundries of the military it self, without a broader accountability for these honorable actions, this is how its always been.

Germany today isnt seeking expansionism and Iron Cross was issued during expansionist wars, so as the medal itself represents actions for which it used to be awarded it also represents other aspects of German military of the old days.

[muck]

Just out of curiousity, and to understand what you want to say: Would you mind it if a totally new medal to honor bravery and heroism was established?

[Kroforit]

Just out of curiousity, and to understand what you want to say: Would you mind it if a totally new medal to honor bravery and heroism was established?


Yea, a new medal maybe, thats what I said in my first post.

I also understand this affection for Iron Cross is to add a heavier symbolism into German military, since during nazism and the time from which most people remember Iron Cross, Germany's military power was unrivaled. And that is what any soldier wants for his army.

[muck]

I also understand this affection for Iron Cross is to add a heavier symbolism into German military, since during nazism and the time from which most people remember Iron Cross, Germany's military power was unrivaled. And that is what any soldier wants for his army.

I guess you will agree that all military aspects are also based on traditions to increase the Corps de Esprit of the soldiers doing their service in them. The Bundeswehr usually does refer it's traditions to the Armies before the Wehrmacht, back to a time where the Iron Cross not had been burdened with Nazism yet. But the Iron cross is already an elementary symbol of German military and allways wil be, like it was for centuries before the Third Reich. So the intention is not to increase the meaning of the German military but to increase the meaning of some individuals who do not get any attention until now. The Iron cross could be choosen due to it's tradition and it's effect. I doubt that soldiers would identify themselves with an award they do not know and that has no tradition for them. Additionally, that medal would look quite similar to the Iron Cross since it already is the roundel of Germany's Forces.

[Kroforit]

I guess you will agree that all military aspects are also based on traditions to increase the Corps de Esprit of the soldiers doing their service in them. The Bundeswehr usually does refer it's traditions to the Armies before the Wehrmacht, back to a time where the Iron Cross not had been burdened with Nazism yet. But the Iron cross is already an elementary symbol of German military and allways wil be, like it was for centuries before the Third Reich. So the intention is not to increase the meaning of the German military but to increase the meaning of some individuals who do not get any attention until now. The Iron cross could be choosen due to it's tradition and it's effect. I doubt that soldiers would identify themselves with an award they do not know and that has no tradition for them. Additionally, that medal would look quite similar to the Iron Cross since it already is the roundel of Germany's Forces.

But even before Hitler's take over the world Germany wasn't such a nice country. WW1 was a great war started by Germany, and even colonial wars before that, even though they were considered to be ok by everyone who was involoved, were still acts of aggression.

Most of european military has changed to low or no aggression tactics. And maybe with that, slowly understanding of military values will change too. Back in the days pride, and loaylty were heavily emphasized in militarys. Countries were being invaded and loyalty and pride for homeland were characteristics used as strenghts, pride was also used to invade other countries. Today, there is no invading of countries of similar strenght and values, all we see is invasions of small and weaker countries, who have very little effect on your homeland. Pride, honor and loyalty cant be invoked to a great extent in such situation, maybe artificialy they can be, like the training to hate your enemy without even knowing why, even though thats just hate, not pride or honor.
So I think medals will probably have to be changed too.

[California Joe]

Why would you come into a military board with a lot of currently serving members of several militaries and proceed to slag their honor and courage etc. cause you have a hardon for current conflicts...

[muck]

By the way, the necessary number of people have signed the petition so far. It actually made it into the inquiry process of the petition committee of the parliament.
Hopefully, we'll hear of them soon.

[Doublethinker]

This petition is a matter for Germans only. Say your piece about it, if you must, but please, don't try to enlist. In my opinion, it was not necessary to post that one here in the first place.






@Mastermind:



Oh really? Perhaps I should remind you that there was nothing wrong with Germany as a neighbour from 1901 to 1914 (and the 29 years before that as well),


Actually, there was. The French sought revanche since the moment they lost the Franco-Prussian war of 1870-1871. And the period from 1901 to 1914 was rich with different crises caused by colonial cobflicts, the most famous one being over the possession of Morrocco in 1904-1906.



that WWI was not started only by Germany (essentially, it tried to defend itself like the Isarelis did in 1967, the thing that ultimately caused the war was the Russian military mobilisation, followed by the French one),


Trying to bull**** your way with this one? Nice. Russian mobilization was a reaction to Austrian-Hungarian declaration of war against Serbia, which in its turn was caused by open German support for Austrian-Hungarian agressive politics in the Balkan region. This talk about Germany having to defend itself is simply pathetic. There wasn't a single person in Europe who wanted war more than Kaiser.




that it was a good neighbour from 1919 to 1933 (not that one can say the same about France or Poland during this time)


The winner takes it all. The loser loses all. What's there to be surprised about? The Frenchies stripped Germans of all chances to be a bad neighbour in that timeframe.



and then that it was an extremely nice neighbour from 1945 to 2000 (not that one can say the same about the Sovietunion during this time).


Especially, because it was divided in two after the second time Germany ignited a world slaughter, and even the Western part's sovereignity was established by the will of the Allies to resist a bigger enemy.



And even the latter period is, if I see that correctly, more than half of the whole bloody century. In other words, your statement can be classified as flatly wrong, can't it?


Looks like yours is as wrong, if not worse.



That leaves the bad twelve years of Nazism, and even here I want to point out that, in contrast to the short version which is so often presented by the media (or even German politicians of these days), it was by no means Germany which is solely responsible for WWII alone. France and Britain had a lot to do with it as well and the Sovietunion is so deeply involved in it that not even the hairs stick out.


Would you please be so kind as to explain, How the USSR, the UK and France were involved in German annexation of Austria and Czech republic? Wasn't it Germany and its allies who ignited ALL conflicts, beginning with war in Ethiopia, then following to the Civil War in Spain, then Munich ripoff, etc.?

So you might mention Molotov-Ribbentropp pact, so what? It is evident, that were it not for the expansionism of Nazi Germany, the war against Poland and the whole WWII would have never erupted at all.



Generally, from the German perspective I fail to see what was so injust about WWI


How about, an attempt to solve territorial conflicts by force via its proxy, Austria-Hungary? That is classified as "agression".



and not everything about WWII was injust as well. (For example: I simply cannot blame any German soldier for figthing against France in Summer 1940 - France declared war on Germany, not the other way around


Nice joke :roll: France and the UK should have probably allowed Hitler to gobble up as much of European territory as he wanted - that would be "fair", right?

Defending Nazi Germany because it wasn't Hitler who declared war, but at the same time defending Kaiser who declared war against Russia, by saying that "he was forced" to do it by Russian mobilization. A little incoherent, don't you think?



and, having actually a slightly larger military, it was far from helpless either - so, can one really blame those German soldiers that their did their job instead of joining the Resistance and starting to shoot on their own countrymen?


You are substituting the subject. Nobody was laying blame on regular soldiers, who just did their duty.



Let's keep in mind that, like others, our boys fought to defend their nation -


Only unlike other boys, your boys defended it on other nations' territories most of the time, sometimes marching there without even declaring war first. A rather peculiar understanding of "defense", I dare say.




something that was perhaps not entirely unnecessary considering the treatments Germany received after every defeat


Something that probably would have never happened if German foreign politics prior to WWI had not been so agressive and adventurist.



(just look one a map and compare the Kaiser's Germany with Merkel's Germany and you see what I mean).


I see what you mean. You are bitter, that after igniting two world wars, losing both and causing the death of tens of millions, instead of gaining new colonies and becoming a dominant power in Europe like German leaders wanted it to, Germany lost all its colonies, as well as East Prussia and other territories.

How unfair!



Since the Iron Cross is no Nazi symbol either -there is one on most vehicles of the German military to this very day - I fail to see why it should be tainted, thank you very much. But of course, you are entitled to your own opinion. (If however I would state my opinion which I have about you because you think this way, it would certainly get me banned. So I better keep that to myself).

As for the symbols, I think whether Germans bring it back or not, does not really change anything. They dare to set their foot in Yugoslavia, after all the suffering they brought to this country.

Might bring back swastika or Kaiser as well.

[Durandal]

They should also bring back the Blue Max.

My great great grandfather was awarded the Pour le Merite, during the Franko-Prussian War...two actually. One for meritorious service and the civil one, as a portrait painter.

Bunch of bad ass German Catholics. His son dated a woman that was divorced and they disowned him.

I think we should also bring back the Totenkopf.

[California Joe]

That rules.

[RECON DOC]

[quote=Durandal;2629181]My great great grandfather was awarded the Pour le Merite, during the Franko-Prussian War...two actually. One for meritorious service and the civil one, as a portrait painter.

That's Very cool.




I think we should also bring back the Totenkopf.

Der Totenkopf predates WWII by over a Century IIRC. Prussian Cavalry?

[Noble713]

I'm dead serious too. Sure, everyone knows the Nazis were bad etc. But the Iron Cross is just flat out cool.

x2. I don't ever expect to be in a situation where I'd receive one, but I would so rock the Iron Cross in any uniform, under any conditions. A general walks by while you're in the field and tells you to take it off? Kiss my @$$, I have an Iron Cross and you don't...SIR. For some reason none of the American awards (Bronze Star, Silver Star, Distinguished Service Medal) inspire awe quite like the Iron Cross does, except the Medal of Honor....and people who get those usually die in the process. You can get an Iron Cross without diving on 16 grenades in a single day.

I get the impression that since Desert Storm they've been handing out CIB's like candy so that doesn't have quite the reputation that it should either.



Captain Stransky (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001703/): I will show you how a true Prussian officer fights.
Unteroffizier Krüger (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0530594/): Then I will show you, where the Iron Crosses grow.

Good movie too. :)

[muck]

The whole issue only exists because the lefties want it to be dingy in the people's eyes. They see a menace of rising militarism in Germany again (Quite funny when considering the armadas of obese people here p-)) and often don't have both the knowledge and the will to put it out of content. Many of them even don't know when and why the Iron Cross was established for the first time and simply connect it to the Nazis, neglecting the fact that the Iron Cross is still our national emblem as well that it is still allowed to everyone who once received it to wear a denazificated Iron Cross -means in it's originally verson without svastika- in public.

However, the only hindrance I see is that the Iron Cross was only awarded when German nations were at war.
But - aren't we already at war? The only thing that is missing is a formal declaration of war. If we speak about missions to enforce peace with violence if necessary like in Afghanistan, it definitely means that peace is absent during an ongoing operation. What is the opposite of peace if not war?

[Macs.]

[quote]Der Totenkopf predates WWII by over a Century IIRC. Prussian Cavalry?Husars.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l314/Macs3000/Preussen.jpg

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l314/Macs3000/prushat1.jpg

Inofficial in Kosovo:

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l314/Macs3000/actionkforg36-1.jpg

;-)

[Durandal]

Der Totenkopf predates WWII by over a Century IIRC. Prussian Cavalry?

Yep. And bad ass to boot.

[Doublethinker]

The whole issue only exists because the lefties want it to be dingy in the people's eyes. They see a menace of rising militarism in Germany again (Quite funny when considering the armadas of obese people here p-)) and often don't have both the knowledge and the will to put it out of content. Many of them even don't know when and why the Iron Cross was established for the first time and simply connect it to the Nazis, neglecting the fact that the Iron Cross is still our national emblem as well that it is still allowed to everyone who once received it to wear a denazificated Iron Cross -means in it's originally verson without svastika- in public.


Swastika wasn't invented in Germany either. Yet these 12 years of enligtened Nazi leadership added that little "something" to it, that woke up a whole generation of Europeans in fear, rather than brought back memories of sacred hindu symbols.

[Freibier]

Reinstated Iron Cross and Skulls for our Panzertruppen would be awesome woot
I'd also like to see a more aggressive Federal Eagle

[gaijinsamurai]

Of course the Iron Cross should be reinstated. Tradition is everything.
I'd love to see pickelhauben as part of dress uniforms, too!

[muck]

Or at least the rules concerning the Honor Cross of the Armed Forces should be revised. At the moment, everyone is able to receive such an Honor Cross in it's particular grade if he/she completed a certain amount of duty years as a soldier. That means, it's only possible to recognize that a person was awarded the medal for more than just "being there" or for social work etc. if he/she is either member of a foreign army or obviously not old enough to could have received the decoration on the usual way.

[gaijinsamurai]

Of course, the criteria for being eligible for the award should not be diminished: non-combat achievement should be considered for something like the War Merit Cross, and the Iron Cross should be reserved solely for valor, with 1st and 2nd Classes, depending on the level of bravery/achievement.
Of course, re-instatement of the Knight's Cross, for stuff that is the equivilant of the Victoria Cross or Medal of Honor, would be cool too.

[MichaelF]

Look, the Pope is German.

Just reestablish the Holy Roman Empire. The time is right.

Katarina Witt can be the Kaiserin.

[muck]

Look, the Pope is German.

Just reestablish the Holy Roman Empire. The time is right.

Katarina Witt can be the Kaiserin.

Following, a list of people who think your comment was clever and funny:

[MichaelF]

Following, a list of people who think your comment was clever and funny:

No one expects the Holy Roman Empire!

[Kroforit]

Did you know that Iron Cross was based on Teutonic Cross, which means that whatever Teutonic Order stood for meant to be represented in Iron Cross. Except, Teutonic Order doesn't recognize the Iron Cross as anything related to Teutonic Order.

[gaijinsamurai]

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the Order of the Teutonic Knights had pretty much been persecuted into oblivion by the time the Iron Cross was established.

[MichaelF]

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the Order of the Teutonic Knights had pretty much been persecuted into oblivion by the time the Iron Cross was established.

No, they are still around. The Catholic portion, anyway (the GM went Lutheran and became a Prince, but the remaining membership of the Lutheran portion was stamped out in the wake of the assassination attempt on Hitler). They aren't a Military Order any more, though.

http://www.deutscher-orden.de/

[MichaelF]

Look, the Pope is German.

Just reestablish the Holy Roman Empire. The time is right.

Katarina Witt can be the Kaiserin.

Well, I was being humorous, but some folks evidently think it's a good idea:

http://www.pro-monarchie.de/


I still say Katarina Witt for the HRE.

[gaijinsamurai]

My mistake MichaelF! I was thinking of the Knight's Templar!!!! I, know-big difference!!!! Gawd, I'm an idiot sometimes!

[MichaelF]

My mistake MichaelF! I was thinking of the Knight's Templar!!!! I, know-big difference!!!! Gawd, I'm an idiot sometimes!

Yeah, the Templars have been extinct for centuries (most survived the purges, which targeted the leadership in France, and were absorbed by other Orders or went secular), conspiracy theories and pretenders to the contrary.

The Hospitallers are still a going concern (and still a Military Order), as are the Spanish Orders (Santiago, Calatrava, etc). That's about it.

Only the Hospitallers (Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of Saint John of Jerusalem, of Rhodes and of Malta) have maintained any real power and authority into the 21st Century, having managed to swing Extraterritorial status from Italy and a Permanent Observer slot at the UN. They also provide medical services around the world.
Supposedly, before the League Of Nations awarded the Mandate of Palestine to the British Empire, the Hospitallers were almost selected to run the Holy Land, pro-tem.

[RECON DOC]

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l314/Macs3000/prushat1.jpg


;-)

That is Uber Baddass.:)

Weren't they at Waterloo?

[muck]

The Federal Committee on Petitions has accepted the petition to reestablish an exclusive award for outstanding bravery and extraordinary achievements and explicitely recommended a detailed examination by the Ministry of Defense. That is at least an important stage win.

woot

[Herman the II]

Official statement:




Aus der großen Anzahl der Mitzeichnungen lässt sich ein beachtenswertes Bedürfnis vieler Bürgerinnen und Bürger nach Stiftung eines zusätzlichen, exklusiven Tapferkeitsordens für außerordentliche Leistungen ableiten. Die gegenwärtigen Umstände, insbesondere die mit den immer häufiger werdenden Auslandseinsätzen der Bundeswehr verbundenen hohen Anforderungen und Gefahren, mit denen die Soldatinnen und Soldaten im Zuge ihrer Auftragserfüllung im Einsatzland alltäglich konfrontiert werden, geben aus Sicht des Ausschusses Anlass, die Einführung einer Tapferkeitsauszeichnung zur angemessenen Würdigung ganz besonders herausragender Leistungen zu prüfen.
Der Petitionsausschuss empfiehlt daher, die Petition der Bundesregierung – dem BMVg – zuzuleiten, um sie auf das mit der Eingabe verfolgte Anliegen aufmerksam zu machen.



http://www.bundestag.de/ausschuesse/a02/uebersicht_abgeschlossen/BGR_16-00101.pdf



That's really remarkable.

[muck]

It's even more interesting to see this development if you compare it with their usual modus operandi. The committee on petitions rarely takes sides, but here it does.

[WarDancer]

Official statement:




http://www.bundestag.de/ausschuesse/a02/uebersicht_abgeschlossen/BGR_16-00101.pdf




That's really remarkable.


Kinda rusty on mein Deutsch, translate please.

[Royal]

As for the symbols, I think whether Germans bring it back or not, does not really change anything. They dare to set their foot in Yugoslavia, after all the suffering they brought to this country.

I remember the RTR (Royal Tank Regiment) deploying to Bosnia with SFOR with their Chally IIs. They also wore their black tank suits (a regimental tradition) - which didn't go down well at all after WWII.

The GOC told them in no uncertain terms that OD tank suits or DPMs were the only kit to be worn p-)

Bring back the Eisernes Kreuz.

[caleb]

That's great news indeed. I am anxious to find out what our spineless politicians will do with it.

Here's my attempt at translating:

From the great amount of signings one can conclude a remarkable desire of the citizens for the foundation of an additional, exclusive decoration for bravery and outstanding accomplishments. In light of the present circumstances, in particular the ever more frequent foreign operations of the Bundeswehr (German Army) with their high risks and requirements the soldiers are facing every day in their respective areas of operations, the comittee feels there is a need to evaluate the institution of a decoration for bravery to properly honor outstanding accomplishements.

The petition comittee therefore recommends to hand over this petition to the Federal Government to make it aware of this particular entry and the respective desire for such a medal.

[muck]

I doubt that the result will actually be a reestablished order of the Iron Cross, but maybe they at least introduce a medal exlusively for bravery.

[James1900]

The Iron Cross was only issued/awarded in times of war starting with the war against Napoleon in 1813, then repeated in 1870/71, 1914 and 1939.
Germany is not at war, in spite of what many might believe, it is therefore not necessary to even consider the subject.
As an aside, is Kletterbuxe or any other "Buxe" still around?

[muck]

Minister of Defence Franz-Josef Jung is going to suggest the introduction of an award exclusively for bravery to Federal President Horst Köhler according to weekly "FOCUS". In Germany, only the President can establish new orders.

Regardless whether the new award will have the name "Iron Cross" or not: Hooray!

[Herman the II]

Great news...woot

[Kletterbuxe]

The Iron Cross was only issued/awarded in times of war starting with the war against Napoleon in 1813, then repeated in 1870/71, 1914 and 1939.
Germany is not at war, in spite of what many might believe, it is therefore not necessary to even consider the subject.
As an aside, is Kletterbuxe or any other "Buxe" still around?

Yes, I am. What´s up ?

[muck]

http://www.welt.de/welt_print/arti2294981/Bundeswehr_bekommt_Tapferkeitsorden_mit_Eichenlaub_am_Bande.html

(German only)

The new award has been approved by the Ministry of Defense, the permission of the competent Federal President is more than likely.

The currently awarded series of "Ehrenzeichen der Bundeswehr" or Badge of Honour of the Armed Forces will be extended to a new and highest class.
The new award will bear the name "Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr für Tapferkeit" or Cross of Honour of the Armed Forces for Gallantry. It will basically look like the Gold Cross of Honour, but with a ornate oak leaf cluster on the ribbon. Only soldiers who perform an act of extraordinary bravery do qualify for the award.

All Badges of Honour of the Armed Forces after the planned revision:

Accomplishment Badge

German Sports Badge in Bronze
German Sports Badge in Silver
German Sports Badge in Gold

Bronze Mission Medal for 30 days in the theater
Silver Mission Medal for 360 days in the theater
Gold Mission Medal for 690 days in the theater

Medal of Honour for Meritious Service or Outstanding Achievements
Bronze Cross of Honour for Meritious Service or Outstanding Achievements
Silver Cross of Honour for Meritious Service or Outstanding Achievements
Gold Cross of Honour for Meritious Service or Outstanding Achievements

Cross of Honour for Gallantry

[Herman the II]

Very good news.
So the Petition wasn't useless at all, thanks to everybody who supported it.

[muck]

Here it is:

http://img13.myimg.de/ehrenkreuzderbundeswehra331fb.jpg

"Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr für Tapferkeit am Bande mit Eichenlaub"

Cross of Honour of the Armed Forces for Gallantry on ribbon with oak leaf cluster

[Bescht]

I still would have preferred a reintroduction of the Iron Cross or a really new medal, but this is definately a great step in the right direction.

One thing I'd like to see would be this order worn around the neck, to present it adequately.

[Dexx]

Isnt the term "Eichenlaub" too politically incorrect and a Nazi reminder? I mean where is the media when you need them? :D

[muck]

http://www.faz.net/m/%7B1A16E1C0-DBBD-4B61-99CE-C4AD251418B8%7DPicture.jpg

It's all official now and the Federal President has established the new order.

[caleb]

Great news, looks really good.


Though the Iron Cross would have been even better.

[muck]

The most interesting thing is - this award comes right out of a petition. Parts of this country are luckily no lost cause when it comes to military things.

The establishment is valid as of today, 10th of October 2008. To tell from all what I've read also brave acts performed before this date can be honoured with the new award.
The question is however: Who is applicable for it? I suppose the requirements are really tough. Gallantry can only be shown in combat, and according to the official version Germany does not participate in wars.

Interesting details can be found in the official announcement: There is a new single achievement grade with a new design (red edges instead of the original colour) and the fact that anyone is eligible for the award, now even foreign civilians and foreign troops.

[muck]

Sorry for the double post

[domokun]

That new cross is nice but personally I still prefer Iron Cross due to related traditions and history.

[muck]

One of the new grades of the order has been awarded for the first time. A Military Police corporal with KFOR received the Gold Cross of Honour for actions committed in Mitrovica last year. It seems that he saved a cameraman of the French military from incoming gunfire during the March riots.

[Hellfish]

First time ever that a German has been awarded anything for saving a Frenchman?

[Walter Sobchak]

Nice. Does one have to be german to sign this?

Yes.... either that or a credible German re-enactor.

[Walter Sobchak]

It's a badass award. They should use it. With all the clusters and sh*t.

They should also bring back the Blue Max.

I agree! The Blue Max was the best, and why stop at the Iron Cross? Bring back the Knights Cross with Swords, Diamonds and Oak Leaves.

Yeah!

[EZFEED]

I'd like to see it reinstated. It's an old German tradition that shouldn't be tarnished by the politics of WWII. I mean, you still use the Maltese Cross on tanks, right?

+2 Amen......shouldn't affect this one iota.

[Atlantic Friend]

First time ever that a German has been awarded anything for saving a Frenchman?


I wonder if the Kriegsmarine officer who refused to detonate explosive charges at the naval base in Bordeaux (which would have resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands) in 1944 received a decoration from the Bundesrepublik ? He was made citizen of honour of Bordeaux after the war, but technically what he did was refusing to obey a direct order...

Anyway, it'd be great that the Cross of Iron gets reinstated, should have been a long time ago. Of all German crosses, that's not the one which needed banning. ;)

[Mousepad]

I agree! The Blue Max was the best, and why stop at the Iron Cross? Bring back the Knights Cross with Swords, Diamonds and Oak Leaves.

Yeah!

Ahem, it's hard nowadays to find a kick-ass German pilot who downed 20 Teleban jets.

[Herman the II]

picture (http://www.bundeswehr.de/portal/a/bwde/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLd443DnIFSYGZASH6kTCxoJRUfV-P_NxUfW_9AP2C3IhyR0dFRQD3l5gl/delta/base64xml/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS80SVVFLzZfQ18zUVM!?yw_contentURL=%2FC1256EF40036B05B%2FW27NZ9BW980INFODE%2Fcontent.jsp)
1234567

[Connaught Ranger]

Interesting thread, but, it will never be reinstated even in the future,

it was primarily an award given for wars against France:

1813, Against Napoleon Bonaparte and the French Republic.

1870 /71, Franco - Prussian War.

1914, The Great War.
But not for issue / award to Prussian troops serving in the German Colonies.

1939 WW2.
An anomaly was created by Hitler reviving the award and adding extra classes.

1957. The De-nazified Model for old WW2 veterans sans Swastika.

Connaught Ranger.

[Connaught Ranger]

picture (http://www.bundeswehr.de/portal/a/bwde/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLd443DnIFSYGZASH6kTCxoJRUfV-P_NxUfW_9AP2C3IhyR0dFRQD3l5gl/delta/base64xml/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS80SVVFLzZfQ18zUVM%21?yw_contentURL=%2FC1256EF40036B05B%2FW27NZ9BW980INFODE%2Fcontent.jsp)
1234567

Any details on what the picture is about? :roll:

[Herman the II]

Any details on what the picture is about? :roll:


One of the new grades of the order has been awarded for the first time. A Military Police corporal with KFOR received the Gold Cross of Honour for actions committed in Mitrovica last year. It seems that he saved a cameraman of the French military from incoming gunfire during the March riots.

Sorry for not pointing that out...:)

[tluassa]

That is Uber Baddass.:)

Weren't they at Waterloo?

Had to play the "Preussischer Präsentiermarsch" when I saw that picture ^^

[Weasel]

Interesting thread, but, it will never be reinstated even in the future,

I hope so. Some politicians and of course the Bundeswehr itself is whining about the lack of attention the Bundeswehr receives and so they are searching for new ways to celebrate themself.
But fortunately the population is not interested in re-militarisation.

[Herman the II]

You are aware that the new cross of honor was issued because of a petition ?
It started out of a public desire, it wasn't initiated by the BW or the government.

[tluassa]

First recipient ?

[Herman the II]

First recipient ?

Yes

Für den selbstlosen Einsatz zum Schutz des Lebens eines französischen Kameraden hat Bundesminister der Verteidigung Dr. Franz Josef Jung den Feldjäger Samuel Lienerth mit dem Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr in Gold ausgezeichnet.


One of the new grades of the order has been awarded for the first time. A Military Police corporal with KFOR received the Gold Cross of Honour for actions committed in Mitrovica last year. It seems that he saved a cameraman of the French military from incoming gunfire during the March riots.


picture (http://www.bundeswehr.de/portal/a/bwde/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLd443DnIFSYGZASH6kTCxoJRUfV-P_NxUfW_9AP2C3IhyR0dFRQD3l5gl/delta/base64xml/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS80SVVFLzZfQ18zUVM!?yw_contentURL=%2FC1256EF40036B05B%2FW27NZ9BW980INFODE%2Fcontent.jsp)

[muck]

I hope so. Some politicians and of course the Bundeswehr itself is whining about the lack of attention the Bundeswehr receives and so they are searching for new ways to celebrate themself.
But fortunately the population is not interested in re-militarisation.I wonder what you're doing in this forum, I really do.

[Weasel]

You are aware that the new cross of honor was issued because of a petition ?
It started out of a public desire, it wasn't initiated by the BW or the government.

Who signed this petition?

[tluassa]

Who signed this petition?

"Im Frühjahr 2007 wurde im Deutschen Bundestag eine Petition zur Wiedereinführung des Eisernen Kreuzes als Tapferkeitsauszeichnung der Bundeswehr für die Auslandseinsätze initiiert. Diese Petition wurde innerhalb der vorgeschriebenen Zweimonatsfrist von mehr als 5.000 Personen unterzeichnet.

Der Deutsche Bundestag hat die Petition beraten und am 13. Dezember 2007 beschlossen, die Petition an die Bundesregierung - hier: dem Bundesministerium der Verteidigung (BMVg) - zu überweisen. Er folgt damit der Beschlussempfehlung des Petitionsausschusses (BT-Drucksache 16/7494).[1] Vom Präsidenten des Reservistenverbandes, Ernst-Reinhard Beck (CDU), wurde vorgeschlagen, für den Orden die Form des Eisernen Kreuzes zu verwenden. Dies stieß aufgrund seiner Wiedereinführung durch das nationalsozialistische Regime weitgehend auf Ablehnung. Er begründete dies mit der Aussage, dass das Symbol von allen Fahr- und Flugzeugen sowie Schiffen der Bundeswehr getragen werde und in Krisenregionen mittlerweile zu einem Zeichen der Hoffnung, der Hilfe und der Solidarität avanciert sei, für das man sich nicht schämen müsse[2] [3]. Am 6. März 2008 billigte Bundespräsident Horst Köhler den Vorschlag eines Ordens für „außergewöhnlich tapfere Taten“ durch den Verteidigungsminister Franz Josef Jung (CDU). An eine Wiederbelebung des Eisernen Kreuzes sei aber nicht gedacht, vielmehr an eine Erweiterung des vorhandenen Ehrenzeichens der Bundeswehr.[4] Als Resultat wurde am 10. Oktober 2008 das Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr für Tapferkeit gestiftet."

You should be able to use Wikipedia yourself.

[Weasel]

You should be able to use Wikipedia yourself.

I am able but why should I do so for a rhetorical question? I know at least 3 military related forums where the appeal to sign the petition was postet. Therefor it´s not a big surprise to get 5000 signatures.

[Supe]

But fortunately the population is not interested in re-militarisation.

Introducing a new award hardly signifies re-militarisation. When a German Govt starts to talk about expansionist and aggressive foreign policy, phantom territorial threats and significant increase in Defence expenditure that is not justified by current, medium term threats then, yes you may have cause to be concerned. For now, your fears are unfounded. As you infer, I doubt most Germans want to spend more on Defence then they really have to. You are making mountain out of molehill.