View Full Version : Sharon owned... by Bibi? Israeli poltics. What next?
Can anyone tell me what do the people of Israel really want? They got rid of Rabin, Barak now they have devastated Sharon... Who is next to come? Bibi Reloaded?
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5093/sharowned.jpg
http://www.us-israel.org/images/netanyahu.jpg
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http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/422767.html
Maybe Likud can, but doesn't want to
By Akiva Eldar
The following lines can be written even before we know whether a little more than half the Likud members supported the disengagement plan, or whether a little more than half dropped an against vote into the ballot box. It is already possible to state that the idea that "only the Likud can" is dead. Likud members and their leaders have refuted the "peace camp's" assumption that only the right can evacuate settlements and bring peace.
Ariel Sharon, the settlers' darling, did not succeed in sweeping the members of his party behind his plan to bring 8,000 settlers and tens of thousands of soldiers, who are surrounded by 1.3 million Palestinians, back home. An initiative whose sole goal was to turn the Gaza Strip into a besieged enclave earned only the quarter-hearted support of senior Likud ministers, who will plainly not shed a tear if it is ****ounced dead.
The referendum among Likud members and the positions taken by the majority of Likud ministers lifted the veil that Likud leaders have spread over their party's face since the Oslo Accords were signed. Benjamin Netanyahu and Sharon found that one poll after another showed a majority of the public still supports the evacuation of the entire Gaza Strip and most of the settlements of the West Bank. They therefore replaced the promise of the whole Land of Israel with promises that they, and only they, could bring security; they, and only they, could find attractive Palestinian partners; they, and only they, could reach a peace agreement with those partners. With the aid of vague slogans such as, "I have confidence in Sharon's peace" and generalities on the order of "painful concessions," they were able to attract hundreds of thousands of peace-seeking voters to their side.
Tens of thousands of Labor Party and Shinui members supported (and, according to the polls, still support) a national unity government, assuming that, with a little help from Shimon Peres and Yosef Lapid, Sharon would do to the settlers of Ofra what he did to the settlers of Yamit. But the only change that has taken place since spring 2001, when Peres, "the architect of Oslo," led his party into Sharon's first government - which was erroneously called a "unity government" - is the construction of new outposts and the enlargement of the settlements. The battle over the plan shows that the Likud can - but does not want to - pay the price of peace. People who are not willing to give up a handful of isolated settlements on the Gaza coast and in northern Samaria will not give up Ofra and Beit El.
The problem that bedeviled supporters of disengagement was not a flawed campaign or poor organization. This is not the first time Likud members and leaders have lifted the rosy veil from the party's face. In May 2002, the Likud Central Committee decided by a large majority that "no Palestinian state will be established west of the Jordan [River]." Then, as well, Sharon stood almost alone, facing off against the majority of Likud ministers, headed by Netanyahu. A party that is opposed to a solution of two states for two peoples, to bilateral negotiations and to unilateral steps, is not a partner for peace. Whether Sharon is a prisoner of his worldview, of Attorney General Menachem Mazuz, or of the conservative positions of the members of his party - the Likud is no partner for a party of peace.
If, despite the reservations of his party and its ministers, Sharon decides to implement his plan to evacuate the settlers and soldiers from Gaza, Labor and Shinui must not give him any excuse for reneging. They must support as speedy a disengagement as possible, and with that, they will have completed their role in the service of the right.
The disengagement referendum enables the parties left of Likud to go to the broad public that supports a compromise and prove to it that compromise and the right are mutually exclusive. The rehabilitation of the peace process was and remains the job of political forces that advocate negotiations with the elected representatives of the Palestinian people rather than the imposition of patchwork solutions. The solution was and remains the Clinton framework, the Geneva Initiative and the road map.
The disengagement referendum ought to disengage the peace camp once and for all from its delusion that "only the Likud can." Perhaps the Likud can, but the Likud surely does not want to.
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http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/422742.html
Analysis / A leader without a party
By Aluf Benn
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's defeat in the Likud Party referendum on the disengagement plan leaves him in the same place that his predecessor Ehud Barak found himself, in the closing days of his short term of office.
Like Barak, Sharon chose the path of courageous initiative by opting for political concessions, and like his predecessor he incorrectly believed that it was sufficient "to do the right thing" and get a U.S. hug in order to shake off the shackles of the local political apparatus, which has a chronic tendency to pull right.
Sharon, like Barak before him, viewed his opponents as a band of dwarfs that could not rise to the hour and take fateful decisions. And Sharon, too, was left without supporters in the moment of truth.
Barak went to Camp David with his party but without a coalition. Sharon pursued the disengagement plan with a stable coalition but without a party behind him. Sharon could have consulted with former foreign minister David Levy, who warned Barak against political moves without political backing. But this time Levy was one of the chief "rebels" that brought stinging defeat to Sharon.
The one person who sounded a warning call this time was Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom. For months he had cautioned that the disengagement plan would lead to early elections. Shalom was not enthusiastic about the shaky political plan drafted by Sharon and his aides. But he was perceived as someone who was fighting for his own seat, for fear it would be given to Shimon Peres, and therefore his warnings were met with little interest.
Suddenly Sharon is also talking about elections. Shalom, Limor Livnat and Benjamin Netanyahu, the three "waivering ministers" who could decide which way the government will vote, are in no hurry to save Sharon. He did not include them in the shaping of the plan and in his contacts with the Americans, so now he can have the honor of taking responsibility alone. Even before the demeaning meetings of last week, when the three told him they would not help in pushing his campaign, Sharon did discreetly gauge their feelings.
It is therefore difficult to take seriously Sharon's message, made public via his supporter Ehud Olmert, that he will continue to promote his disengagement plan by other means. He will have difficulty getting a majority to vote in its favor inside the cabinet, and he is likely to meet with opposition even if he turns to a "bypass the party" general referendum. Livnat and Netanyahu will not go against the opposition's vote. They will vote against Sharon.
This is the second time the U.S. has been embarrassed by an Israeli PM who harnessed U.S. support for a courageous initiative. President Bush put his prestige on the line, at home and in the Arab world, by throwing his weight behind Sharon, just as former Clinton did for Barak. Bush's support did not help Sharon in his party and may even have harmed him. The U.S. will not renege on this support nor will it punish Sharon; but officials in Jerusalem say the U.S. would be much more wary of supporting future Israeli initiatives.
This could contribute to an imposed solution in the future, in view of the clear weakness of Israeli leaders in the face of opposition to a solution at home .
Like his predecessors, Sharon is now blaming terrorism for thwarting the disengagement plan. In this way, he has completed his political U-turn - and appears to have driven into a cul de sac.
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http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/423003.html
Report: Syria nabs Mossad men planning to kill Hamas leader
By Haaretz Service
Syria recently thwarted a second attempt by the Israeli Mossad espionage agency to killed Hamas leader Khaled Meshal, the Tehran Times reported Monday.
Quoting "reliable sources," the paper claims that five Yemenite Jews, disguised as Muslims, participated in a ceremony in Damascus to commemorate assassinated Hamas leader Abed al-Aziz Rantisi.
The paper claims that the five entered the Yarmook camp in Damascus to meet Meshal and Mousa Abu Marzook, a high-ranking member of the Hamas political office.
The five were dispatched by the Mossad, the paper claims, to assassinate the two top Hamas officials, but were nabbed by Meshal's bodyguards.
The five men are currently being held by the Syrian security forces, according to the report, but have still not been identified. They said during questioning that entered Syria through Jordan and were sent by the Mossad to kill the Hamas officials.
An attempt to assassinate Meshal was foiled in 1997 when two Mossad agents were caught in Jordan with forged Canadian passports. They were released a few days later and sent back to Israel.
SeanAshi
05-03-2004, 05:39 AM
Sharon's coalition government might collapse over the Gaza deal, complicated situation, always has been always will be. Rabin was assinated, Peres defeated by Netanyahu, Netanyahu defeated by Barak, then Barak defeated by Sharon....
Javehn
05-03-2004, 06:06 AM
Oh , dude , common , why the hell you would like to deal with the Israeli Politics ? Why it's interesting you ?
And Sharon didn't got owned by Biby or nothing . He is politician not a first or a second year . He is player , and he knew very well , that the poll will have those results . It will help him to show himself as an idea fighter against his own party , it will forgot several things on him , it make him look good on world arena , and Israeli left parties , and it will help him in future to establish perhaps wast coalition including Israeli labor party .
He knows what he is doing , he didn't born yesterday .And anyway , politics sucks .
Sharon's coalition government might collapse over the Gaza deal, complicated situation, always has been always will be. Rabin was assinated, Peres defeated by Netanyahu, Netanyahu defeated by Barak, then Barak defeated by Sharon....
I know very well what has happened to Itzhak Rabin... :| I must say that I had respected the man for his courage...
http://www.rabincenter.org.il/site/he/images//hp/pic.jpg
http://www.hagalil.com/judentum/editorial/rabin-center.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1447/rabin1.html
"He was us" / Jonathan Geffen
November 5th 1995
Rabin was the first prime minister that was one of us. Finally, one that resembles us. And that was our dream for generations: to be goverened by one of us. He resembled us in courage and in fear. In fighting as a way of life, which changed into true peace making, almost obssesively.
He was first of all a man, flesh and blood, with advantages and disadvantages. His words weren't taken from the bible, nor from a hot tape. No, my friends, Itzhak Rabin spoke in the language of the people, which is the language of the body, of the mother, of the ocean. Of the children that were born here. Of the children that died here.
Rabin was us. People who were born in a country flowing with milk, but eating its inhabitants. Rabin was the first leader who didn't quote a vision, but talked like you and me. He was you and me, so when he was murdered, something in you died, something in me was murdered.
What's left now is the scream. Yes, I know it's not the time, but I'm afraid until the time would come, we would be murdered again. Someone has to say it: each and every one who wrote "Rabin is a traitor" on a phone-booth, "Rabin = Hamas" on public signs, or "Itzhak Gebels" in "Our Israel" (the paper of the American-Israelies), each one who publically or secretly droped the poisen - killed the leader, and the cause of death: an overdose of pure hatered. one hundred percent preaching for murder. Yes, now it's not the time, I know, but some day, I hope, all of them will be listed, and will pay the price, or at least go to hell.
Yes, I know, you don't have to tell me: it's not the time, it's nationally wrong, it's legally wrong, to say who was the mind behind this blood. But maybe I'll say it, queitly: there were political persons in the right wing that gave permission to murder. There, I've said it. Now I can mourn queitly.
Again the evil forces, sent by fear, killed a man like us. Itzhak Rabin was the first prime minister that was one of us. He was murdered, and a part of us was murdered. So remembering him is remembering us and never giving up our dreams. G-d bless his memory. And another small thing, that because we resembled him we never told him: we loved that man. We loved you. You, Itzhak.
Oh , dude , common , why the hell you would like to deal with the Israeli Politics ? Why it's interesting you ?
And Sharon didn't got owned by Biby or nothing . He is politician not a first or a second year . He is player , and he knew very well , that the poll will have those results . It will help him to show himself as an idea fighter against his own party , it will forgot several things on him , it make him look good on world arena , and Israeli left parties , and it will help him in future to establish perhaps wast coalition including Israeli labor party .
He knows what he is doing , he didn't born yesterday .And anyway , politics sucks .What is wrong with my interest in Israeli politics? Is it smth wrong? Can't I read Israeli newspapers? Why aren't You wondering why people here write and read about terrorist actions or eliminating the terrorosts...?
Israeli politics is an important element of the war/peace developments in whole region... that is why I am interested in it.
As it comes to Sharon... we will see if that's a game or not .....
Javehn
05-03-2004, 06:32 AM
What is wrong with my interest in Israeli politics? Is it smth wrong? Can't I read Israeli newspapers? Why aren't You wondering why people here write and read about terrorist actions or eliminating the terrorosts...?
I didn't implied you have no right to know . I was just wondering why it's interests you (there are too many parties and too many views here, that even average Israeli can't understand them all ) .
And , it's a game . 5 years old boy could now the results of that voting .
What is wrong with my interest in Israeli politics? Is it smth wrong? Can't I read Israeli newspapers? Why aren't You wondering why people here write and read about terrorist actions or eliminating the terrorosts...?
I didn't implied you have no right to know . I was just wondering why it's interests you (there are too many parties and too many views here, that even average Israeli can't understand them all ) .
And , it's a game . 5 years old boy could now the results of that voting .So what will be the political outcome of all that game? What were the reasons for this poll? What wanted Sharon to achieve with this?
Javehn
05-03-2004, 07:00 AM
The reasons for that ? The pool was amongst Israeli right oriented party (Likud) members , and many people didn't vote (Infact voting percent was 20 % at cities , while in settlements it was 100 percent . And settlers naturally are right wing) . It caused that the largest ammounts are against Sharon proposittion .
What he want to acheave with it ? I allready wrote about it , no ?
It will help him to show himself as an idea fighter against his own party , it will forgot several things on him , it make him look good on world arena , and Israeli left parties , and it will help him in future to establish perhaps wast coalition including Israeli labor party .
It can be something else . Who knows ..
citizen-k
05-03-2004, 07:08 AM
These were interanl elections in the Likud party. So not everyone could vote...
I think it was an internal thing ment to make Nethanyahu the next leader of the Likud party (and the next PM, since the labor party has no one to offer)
gilgoul
05-03-2004, 08:06 AM
Let me hope not.
First, this is an election for the membersd of the likud ONLY.
Theyr do not represent the opinion of the Isrealis in general.
It is not like we : got rid of rabin, then barak, then sharon.
Your text sounds a little like : "those israelis say no to peace everytime they can", and if i`m paranoid, please acept my apologies in advance.
This kind of conclusion would be giving a less than fair trial to the Israeli Ntaion.
I personaly hope to see some political horizon and genuine peace between my country and her neighbours, and I`m willing for that to forfeit a lot of options and take a lot of risks in order to complete this dream, as does the majority of Israel. But one should not forget that we `re all feeling a little betrayed in this sad story.
Let`s see if sharon decides on a referendum for the population as a whole
Can anyone tell me what do the people of Israel really want? They got rid of Rabin, Barak now they have devastated Sharon... Who is next to come? Bibi Reloaded?
First of all Rabin was assassinated so you have no basis to claim that the "Israeli people got rid" of him.
As for the poll, it was only carried out among members of the Likud party and the participation level in the voting was very low, so this says nothing about the views of the Israeli people as a whole.
I've always liked Netanyahu. :D
Interesting stuff, though.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1083468528598
Analysis: Sharon disengages from the Likud
By ANSHEL PFEFFER
The Likud has never spurned its leader. From its early Revisionist origins in the 1920s, the party faithful always rallied around Jabotinsky, Begin, Shamir, and Netanyahu, no matter what.
Dissenters were ostracized and eventually found themselves on the outside.
Ariel Sharon is different. After building a military and then a political career out of antagonizing his superiors, he is now doing the same thing to his supporters from the top of the pyramid.
Last night's results were the most striking example yet, but not the first. He has been defying the Likud's central committee in the same way almost since his elevation to party chairman in 1999. So far, it seems to have worked well for him.
Two years ago he defied the central committee that rejected his resolution in favor of a Palestinian state and went on to soundly beat Netanyahu's leadership challenge and lead the Likud to an overwhelming elections victory.
After yesterday's defeat it seems that Sharon is sticking to the same strategy. There's no question, he didn't spend 73 years clawing his way to the top just to resign after a small fraction of the 1.7 million people who voted personally for him three years ago, rejected a plan endorsed by the US president.
Sharon's aides were talking last night about the real referendum from their point of view, the clear majority in not only the Israeli public as a whole, but among the Likud's voters also, in favor of disengagement. They are predicting now a public backlash against the Likud of such a magnitude, that the same party members who yesterday were almost showing him the door, out of fear of losing power, will re-endorse him, disengagement plan and all.
Sharon's game plan now is to sit out the storm and wait for his party members to realize the hard electoral facts. Neither Uzi Landau, nor Nomi Blumenthal or Michael Ratzon, or any other Knesset member who opposed the plan, will bring in the votes that Sharon has. The leaders of the opposition camp in the Likud last night rushed to swear allegiance to the vanquished leader.
MK Gilad Erdan told The Jerusalem Post, "we haven't humiliated Sharon. Tomorrow, he will still be the prime minister, and with a more stable coalition. We appreciate what he did in asking the party."
The victors have no option but Sharon. Despite losing, the prime minister emerges with one tangible political gain.
He has effectively neutralized any high-profile challengers in the party. None of the prospective contenders is in a position to capitalize on Sharon's debacle, since they were all made to toe the line and support the program. Any hopes that Netanyahu might have entertained will have to be put on hold.
All that said, the referendum can on no account be considered a victory for Sharon. For the third time, his team ran a campaign in which Sharon's leadership was virtually the only selling point. In the 2001 and 2003 elections, it worked beyond their wildest dreams. Despite the negative polls, until last weekend they still believed that the leadership principle would kick in, and that the Likud rank and file would step back from the brink and not humiliate Arik.
Lior Horev, one of Sharon's main campaign advisors, admitted that the prime minister's image, in a referendum that he initiated, on the plan he devised, was the pivotal element – and this time, "it failed."
Horev blamed the Likud members who "couldn't bear the burden of responsibility; they didn't want to be the ones to vote on removing Jews from their homes."
Sharon would have preferred having a general referendum, he said, but it would have taken too long to legislate. After last night, it seems that Sharon will try and give the public its choice all the same.
citizen-k
05-03-2004, 09:43 AM
I've always liked Netanyahu. :D
Interesting stuff, though.
Hehe...he and Sharon made this thing up just to make sure he will be the next PM. Most poeple in Israel fail to see it.
After he supported Sharon, Netanyahu is not a "right wing extreamist" any more...and after his wonderful job in the past year 60%-70% will vote for him. (or his party...which will be Likud)
I just love politics, especially when I win it woot
Israel's Sharon Survives No-Confidence Vote
JERUSALEM (*******) - Prime Minister Ariel Sharon easily survived a no-confidence vote in Israel's parliament on Monday, a day after his right-wing Likud party overwhelmingly rejected his Gaza pullout plan.
Leftist and Arab parties, apparently trying to capitalize on Sharon's political troubles, had presented the no-confidence motion over what they called the government's "failure socio-economically and diplomatically."
http://www.*******.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=NNZFDGLQWMAGOCRBAELCFEY?type=worldNews&storyID=5017359§ion=news
I think this is enough to prove to fdt that Sharon's government is alive and kicking...
StarvingStudent47
05-03-2004, 01:00 PM
Can anyone tell me what do the people of Israel really want? They got rid of Rabin, Barak now they have devastated Sharon... Who is next to come? Bibi Reloaded?
God forbid a functioning democracy change its elected leaders every couple years, instead of just appointing people "for life." This is the name of the game in the USA, Canada, Britain, Australia, etc, etc, etc. Israel is the same.
I was just wondering why it's interests you (there are too many parties and too many views here, that even average Israeli can't understand them all ) .
The non confidence vote proved that in present Kneseth there is no alternative for the Sharon as a PM... right, that's beyond the dispute.
Sharon has procured the intra Likud poll to strenghten his position within his party .... despite he knew he will loose it by a wide margin. p-)
1. Isn't he affraid of the inner Likud oposition? Such polls loss would mean in other country a change at the party leadership.
2. What has this poll outcome proven? Has it proven that Sharon's policy is not popular within his own party? Has it proven that hie constitutional position (PM chosen in free elections) of Sharon as a PM, lets him disregard the party's majority opinion... and let go?
3. What has the non confidence vote proven? That there is no real alternative to Sharon's policy ... or just himself? What is the current condition of the other Israeli parties? Don't they have alternative programmes or just they lack charismatic leadership?
I quoted the Javehn's post above ... because it gives me quite good alibi :lol: .
1. Isn't he affraid of the inner Likud oposition? Such polls loss would mean in other country a change at the party leadership.
Since only 30-40% of the party members took part in the poll (and most of those who took part were mostly the hard liners), it doesn't reflect the Likud members opinion and this poll wasn't about change of leadership.
2. What has this poll outcome proven? Has it proven that Sharon's policy is not popular within his own party? Has it proven that hie constitutional position (PM chosen in free elections) of Sharon as a PM, lets him disregard the party's majority opinion... and let go?
Same answer as above...
So he procured the poll, as he knew that his supporters (who are to be majority in party) will not take part in it and he is very likely to loose it...because of his supporters will not participate? Are they his real supporters? Pls explain this to me more detailed manner.
Javehn
05-03-2004, 02:06 PM
Most don't give a **** enough to vote . Those who do vote , most of them extreme right wing , ready to support the cause . And the supporters of pullout are outnumbered .
It is pretty much suicidal step , unless he has something in has pocket , which he obviously have .And those who vote , they are Likud party members only , and not PM supporters .
So he procured the poll, as he knew that his supporters (who are to be majority in party) will not take part in it and he is very likely to loose it...because of his supporters will not participate? Are they his real supporters? Pls explain this to me more detailed manner.
He didn't procure the poll, it was forced upon him by his party...
SeanAshi
05-03-2004, 03:26 PM
Great avatar citizen-k! woot
Javehn
05-03-2004, 03:36 PM
How about this one :
http://www.xxii.net/pix/Next_Time.jpg
weedman
05-03-2004, 03:37 PM
RIP, Rabin... :(
We would need you :(
SeanAshi
05-03-2004, 03:51 PM
http://www.xxii.net/pix/Next_Time.jpg
Its great! all it needs now is a cup holder
RIP, Rabin... :(
We would need you :(
I bet you don't know **** about rabin.
citizen-k
05-03-2004, 04:59 PM
So he procured the poll, as he knew that his supporters (who are to be majority in party) will not take part in it and he is very likely to loose it...because of his supporters will not participate? Are they his real supporters? Pls explain this to me more detailed manner.
I told you.
Netanyahu supported the poll - so now he will be acceptable by many people from the middle-left wing. The right wing of the likud will leave the likud and join a more right winged party...
Now, Netanyahu was a great minister of finance - reduced taxes of all kinds... stabilized the economy etc... being "moderated" after the poll the Likud will get even bigger in the next elections. (Sharon can't continue any way because he is too old)
SeanAshi
05-03-2004, 05:16 PM
Isn't Shimon Peres older then Sharon? He is calling for new elections, is he going to run?
ExtraT
05-03-2004, 05:26 PM
RIP, Rabin... :(
We would need you :(
And, why, exactly would you need Rabin? Do you know of any more ships full of death-camp survivors that need to be sunk? Or, maybe, there is another degenerate "peace treaty" lying around that needs to be signed?
To preclude any angry outcries: I don't support the murder of Rabin (I would have preferred to see him in jail), but the truth is, he was a deficient, amoral politician, with a checkered (at best) past military career.
Let's not create another idol, shall we?
ExtraT
05-03-2004, 05:27 PM
Isn't Shimon Peres older then Sharon? He is calling for new elections, is he going to run?
Peres is going to run even after they put him in his grave. He is the kind of **** that would do pretty much anything to get to power.
citizen-k
05-03-2004, 06:07 PM
Isn't Shimon Peres older then Sharon? He is calling for new elections, is he going to run?
As said - he will run for elections long after you and me will be pushing up the daisies...
The man just can't get a clue - "LOOSER!!!" rofl
As for Rabin, well... Too bad he is dead, but no, there is nothing good he could offer us now days. (maybe a glass of scotch, at best)
gilgoul
05-04-2004, 04:36 AM
How about this one :
http://www.xxii.net/pix/Next_Time.jpg
:lol: :lol: :lol: woot
Could someone from Israel make a comment on the two above posts of ExtraT?
SeanAshi
05-04-2004, 05:15 AM
Peres is a lefty, BiBi refered to him once as Israels first astronaut, because his mind is way out in space.
Could someone from Israel make a comment on the two above posts of ExtraT?
I don't agree with what ExtraT wrote....
Rabin was a great man...and serve is country until is death.
BTW : As much that i think that peres is loser polticion...
Don't forget what he did for israel in the past.
The same thing for every other PM in israel
BTW 2 : fdt you aware the fact that when rabin murderd the pal' dance And were very happy...
BTW 2 : fdt you aware the fact that when rabin murderd the pal' dance And were very happy... Didn't understand this part. Could You precise?
weedman
05-04-2004, 01:29 PM
http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/arab_news_041002a.gif
It's not my intention to offend anyone... (http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/saudi_nazism.asp) :roll:
http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/arab_news_041002a.gif
It's not my intention to offend anyone... (http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/saudi_nazism.asp) :roll:
****Ing
Anti smetic art.
big80a2
05-04-2004, 02:11 PM
http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/arab_news_041002a.gif
It's not my intention to offend anyone... (http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/saudi_nazism.asp) :roll:
then why show it?? :roll: :bash:
http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/arab_news_041002a.gif
It's not my intention to offend anyone... (http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/saudi_nazism.asp) :roll:
What does this have to do with the topic?!
And if you don't want to offend anyone, don't show it in the first place... :cantbeli:
weedman
05-05-2004, 08:30 AM
Just click the link below and rethink your reaction.
citizen-k
05-05-2004, 10:49 AM
Old news.
I don't remember any Israeli declaration regarding killing anyone just because he is not Israeli, unlike EVERY other Arab country in the region.
Nazism was a special event in history, lucky for the Arabs (thanks to their leader who cooparated with Hitler) they never got to come across with it.
Using it so often only makes them look blind and idiotic. (as they are)
W(M)D
05-05-2004, 10:54 AM
Nazism was a special event in history, lucky for the Arabs (thanks to their leader who cooparated with Hitler) ...............
The swastika flags were ready to be unfurled by the local citizens of Cairo who hoped and thought that Rommel would beat the commonwealth armies fighting in North Africa and reach the Suez Canal.
The Mufti of Jerusalem actually spent the war years in Berlin and a Waffen SS unit of (Bosnian) muslims was raised also.
These 'sons of Ishmael' are'nt very clever when it comes to choosing sides in conflict.
citizen-k
05-05-2004, 10:54 AM
Could someone from Israel make a comment on the two above posts of ExtraT?
Which part?
Rabin commanded a bombing of a ship near Tel-Aviv, (former PM Begin was on board that ship)
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/Altalena.html
Sixteen Irgun fighters were killed in the confrontation with the army; six were killed in the Kfar Vitkin area and ten on Tel Aviv beach. Three IDF soldiers were killed: two at Kfar Vitkin and one in Tel Aviv.
I didn't read the whole article and I must add that there are many point of views to the story... some think it was the right thing to do, and some don't.
As for Peres...let's say he never had any marbles to begin with ;)
"New Middle-East" - the guy thinks he can make the Arabs speak Polish. (and act as such)
ExtraT
05-05-2004, 11:35 AM
I didn't read the whole article and I must add that there are many point of views to the story... some think it was the right thing to do, and some don't.
Well, the Left sure thinks it was the right thing - it let them rule the country for 30 years without any interruptions.
Generally speaking, "The Latalena affair" is a defining point in Israeli history - that day the Left has showen that they are ready to use any means to acquire power, even starting a civil war.
W(M)D
05-05-2004, 11:41 AM
As for Peres...let's say he never had any marbles to begin with ;)
"New Middle-East" - the guy thinks he can make the Arabs speak Polish. (and act as such)
That is one person you would call a 'Polani Maniak' LOL
Peres has probably got to have the worst electoral track record of any long standing world politician, but he gets 100% for trying LOL
Which part?
This one:
And, why, exactly would you need Rabin? Do you know of any more ships full of death-camp survivors that need to be sunk? Or, maybe, there is another degenerate "peace treaty" lying around that needs to be signed?
To preclude any angry outcries: I don't support the murder of Rabin (I would have preferred to see him in jail), but the truth is, he was a deficient, amoral politician, with a checkered (at best) past military career.
Is really Rabin's record so controversial in Israel?
"New Middle-East" - the guy thinks he can make the Arabs speak Polish. (and act as such)
The guy... Peres? Why Polish...?
Well, the Left sure thinks it was the right thing - it let them rule the country for 30 years without any interruptions.
Correction, what made Mapai stay in government for 30 was the fact that they were elected by the Israeli public.
I'm not a big fan of the left, however saying they were in power because of this affair is a great injustice.
Generally speaking, "The Latalena affair" is a defining point in Israeli history - that day the Left has showen that they are ready to use any means to acquire power, even starting a civil war.
Actually I belive that the sinking of the ship was what avoided a civil war.
Ben-Gurion made it clear that the IDF is the only Israeli army and that there won't be any militias in Israel.
ExtraT
05-05-2004, 12:37 PM
Correction, what made Mapai stay in government for 30 was the fact that they were elected by the Israeli public.
And why were they elected? Was it, by any chance, because the only viable opposition was made illigal after the "Altalena affair"? :)
Actually I belive that the sinking of the ship was what avoided a civil war.
That's Left propaganda. They've won, so they rewrote the history afterwards.
The fact is, that only because of Irgun's absolute unwillingness to shoot on Jews that the war didn't happen.
Ben-Gurion made it clear that the IDF is the only Israeli army and that there won't be any militias in Israel.
You are absolutely right. However, the weapons WERE DESTINED for IDF. By that time, Irgun has already been integrated into IDF, and these weapons were to be equally dispersed among IDF units.
The only thing that Irgun was planning to collect from it all are political dividends, needed in the face of upcoming elections.
BTW, there is another part to all this: This shipment was only the first! And all of these weapons were destined for IDF.
Of course, delivery of so many weapons by an opposition party during a war, and prior to elections would have greatly hurt the chances of Ben-Gurion to be elected, so he stopped it.
And if you consider the horrible situation with weapons in IDF at that time, this action by Ben-Gurion is even more amoral.
And Rabin was the one who agreed to pull the trigger. 2 other officers (one from artillery, another from Air Force) were ordered to sink that ship before him, and they refused to shoot at their own brothers. And this motherf*cker agreed.
citizen-k
05-05-2004, 12:45 PM
Which part?
This one:
And, why, exactly would you need Rabin? Do you know of any more ships full of death-camp survivors that need to be sunk? Or, maybe, there is another degenerate "peace treaty" lying around that needs to be signed?
To preclude any angry outcries: I don't support the murder of Rabin (I would have preferred to see him in jail), but the truth is, he was a deficient, amoral politician, with a checkered (at best) past military career.
Is really Rabin's record so controversial in Israel?
"New Middle-East" - the guy thinks he can make the Arabs speak Polish. (and act as such)
The guy... Peres? Why Polish...?
As you can see tjose issues are still very painful in Israel. (Rabin commanded the bombing of the ship)
The guy=Peres.
He think he can negotiate & sign agreements with the Palestinians...
For an average European (Polish for example) that sounds very reasonable - right?
Thing is Palestinians (or Arabs in general) has a different culture - signing an agreement has different meanings to them.
Peres is dreaming about the day he will turn the Arab culture more western.
I, for example, come from a family which lives in Israel for many generations (unlike Peres who came from Europe when he was young) and "we" don't think Arabs will turn into Swiss/Polish or British in the near future...
And why were they elected? Was it, by any chance, because the only viable opposition was made illigal after the "Altalena affair"?
What about Herot party which was founded by former members of the IZL?
I don't recall it been an illigal party...
You are absolutely right. However, the weapons WERE DESTINED for IDF. By that time, Irgun has already been integrated into IDF, and these weapons were to be equally dispersed among IDF units.
The only thing that Irgun was planning to collect from it all are political dividends, needed in the face of upcoming elections.
BTW, there is another part to all this: This shipment was only the first! And all of these weapons were destined for IDF.
Of course, delivery of so many weapons by an opposition party during a war, and prior to elections would have greatly hurt the chances of Ben-Gurion to be elected, so he stopped it.
And if you consider the horrible situation with weapons in IDF at that time, this action by Ben-Gurion is even more amoral.
The version I know is that the IZL wasn't yet ntegrated into IDF, since there wasn't really an IDF at the time and that the weapons were to be brought to the IZL together with 900 immigrant who were supposed to be recruited to the IZL.
Anyway to this day the whol affair is disputed...
citizen-k
05-05-2004, 01:25 PM
And why were they elected? Was it, by any chance, because the only viable opposition was made illigal after the "Altalena affair"?
What about Herot party which was founded by former members of the IZL?
I don't recall it been an illigal party...
You are absolutely right. However, the weapons WERE DESTINED for IDF. By that time, Irgun has already been integrated into IDF, and these weapons were to be equally dispersed among IDF units.
The only thing that Irgun was planning to collect from it all are political dividends, needed in the face of upcoming elections.
BTW, there is another part to all this: This shipment was only the first! And all of these weapons were destined for IDF.
Of course, delivery of so many weapons by an opposition party during a war, and prior to elections would have greatly hurt the chances of Ben-Gurion to be elected, so he stopped it.
And if you consider the horrible situation with weapons in IDF at that time, this action by Ben-Gurion is even more amoral.
The version I know is that the IZL wasn't yet ntegrated into IDF, since there wasn't really an IDF at the time and that the weapons were to be brought to the IZL together with 900 immigrant who were supposed to be recruited to the IZL.
Anyway to this day the whol affair is disputed...
I guess your parents were memeber of Mapa"i... so they were not kicked out of school because they were on the wrong the side, huh? :roll:
Ben-Gurion was not a nice person to his enemies - I guess it was for thebest cause at the end it worked. Too bad Arafat is not learning from him :cantbeli:
And no, I am far from being a part of Mapa"i-Avoda and the rest of the communist parties in Israel ;)
ExtraT
05-05-2004, 01:32 PM
I agree with S'13: this item of Israeli history is still very painful, and heavily disputed. And it's definetly not for discussion in a forum like this. Not yet, anyways.
For the non-Israeli people: Rabin was definetly not an angelic, all knowing, wise politician that some people paint him. And his murder is definetly not "accidental deed by a madman acting alone".
Unfortunetly, killing a politician like that only strengthens this politicians image. :(
I guess your parents were memeber of Mapa"i... so they were not kicked out of school because they were on the wrong the side, huh? :roll:
My parents weren't members of any party, however my grandma was a Revisionist so you guessed wrong my friend... :lol:
And no, I am far from being a part of Mapa"i-Avoda and the rest of the communist parties in Israel ;)
Mapai is the party which led our country in its first years whether you or I like it or not.
I have respect for Mapai (not for the Avoda which is Mapais bad reincarnation).
citizen-k
05-05-2004, 03:03 PM
I guess your parents were memeber of Mapa"i... so they were not kicked out of school because they were on the wrong the side, huh? :roll:
My parents weren't members of any party, however my grandma was a Revisionist so you guessed wrong my friend... :lol:
And no, I am far from being a part of Mapa"i-Avoda and the rest of the communist parties in Israel ;)
Mapai is the party which led our country in its first years whether you or I like it or not.
I have respect for Mapai (not for the Avoda which is Mapais bad reincarnation).
Sorry for the false accusations :)
As I said, although I (and many others) dissagree with Mapa"is way - it was the main party which lead the way... so it sins can be forgiven.
Sorry for the false accusations :)
No problem habibi p-)
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