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hist2004
05-03-2004, 10:47 AM
USS Pueblo, AGER-2 is a United States ship, famous for being captured and confiscated by the government of North Korea in 1968 in what is known as the Pueblo incident.

The ship was built at Kewaunee, Wisconsin in 1944 as U.S. Army cargo ship FP-344. She was transferred to the US Navy in 1966 and renamed USS Pueblo. Initially, she served as a light cargo ship, AKL-44, but shortly after resuming service was converted to an intelligence gathering ship and re-designated AGER-2 on 13 May 1967. AGER (Auxiliary General Environmental Research) denoted a joint Naval and National Security Agency (NSA) program. In January 1968, North Korean forces seized the Pueblo Pueblo weighed about 850 tons, had a top speed of 12 knots, and was armed with two 50 caliber machine guns. She had accommodations for a crew of 70 with 6 officers.

After training operations off the US West Coast, Pueblo left for Yokosuka, Japan on November 6, 1967. She arrived at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii on November 13, 1967.

US Naval authorities insist that before the capture, Pueblo was miles outside North Korean territorial waters. The crew affirms the assertion that the spy ship was operating from international waters. The mission statement allowed her to approach within a mile of that limit.On January 5, 1968, Pueblo left for Sasebo, Japan. She left Sasebo on January 11 with specific orders to intercept and conduct surveillance of Soviet naval activity in the Tsushima Straits and to gather signal and electronic intelligence.
On January 21 a modified Soviet style subchaser, SO-I class, passed within two miles of the Pueblo.
The next day, two North Korean fishing trawlers (Lenta Class) passed with 25 yards of Pueblo. That day, a North Korean unit made an assassination attempt against South Korean leadership targets, but the crew of Pueblo was not informed.

The following day, January 23, Pueblo was approached by a subchaser and her nationality challenged. Pueblo responded by raising the US flag. The North Korean vessel then ordered her to stand down or be fired upon. Pueblo attempted to maneuver away, but was considerably slower than the subchaser. Additionally, three torpedo boats appeared on the horizon and then joined in the chase and later attack. The attackers were soon joined by two MiG-21 fighters. A fourth torpedo boat and a second subchaser appeared on the horizon a short time later. The ammunition on Pueblo was stored below decks, and her machine guns were wrapped in cold weather tarpaulins. The machine guns were unarmored, and no attempt was made to man them.

The North Korean vessels attempted to board Pueblo but she maneuvered to prevent this and a subchaser opened fire with a 55 mm cannon. The smaller vessels fired machine guns into Pueblo, which then signalled compliance and began destroying sensitive material. The volume of material on board was so great it made it impossible to destroy all of it.

Radio contact with Naval Security Group in Kamiseya, Japan had been ongoing. Seventh Fleet command was aware of Pueblo’s situation. Help was promised but never arrived. More than likely, no one wanted to take responsibility for an attack on North Korean vessels attacking Pueblo. By the time President Lyndon Johnson was awoken, Pueblo had been captured and any rescue attempt would be futile.

Pueblo followed the North Korean vessels as ordered, but then stopped immediately outside North Korean waters. She was again fired upon, and a US sailor, Duane Hodges, was killed. She was boarded by men from a torpedo boat and a subchaser. Crew members had their hands tied, were blindfolded, beaten with AK-47s and prodded with bayonets.

Once Pueblo was in North Korean territorial waters, she was boarded again, this time by high ranking North Korean officials.
Pueblo was taken into port at Wonson and the crew moved to POW camps, reporting on release they were starved and regularly tortured while in North Korean custody.

Following a written admission by the US that Pueblo had been spying, and an apology, the crew was released exactly 11 months after being taken prisoner. The US then retracted the admission and apology. Commander Lloyd M. Bucher, the captain, appeared before a Navy Court of Inquiry. A court martial was recommended but the Secretary of the Navy, John H Chafee, overturned the recommendation. Commander Bucher never found guilty of any indiscretions and the general consensus is that he was treated badly. Bucher followed his orders, which dictated that he not spark an international incident. No combat resulted from the capture of the Pueblo. Bucher died on January 28, 2004.

Pueblo is still held by North Korea. In October 1999 she was moved from Wonson on the east coast, to Nampo on the west coast. This required moving the vessel through international waters, and it was done just before the visit of US presidential envoy James Kelly to the capital Pyongyang.

Pueblo remains a commissioned ship in the US Navy. She is widely believed to be the first American ship to have been captured since the wars in Tripoli, but that is incorrect. On December 8, 1941, the USS Wake (PR-3) was captured by Japanese forces.

Regards,
Hist2004

Mark Sman
05-04-2004, 02:30 AM
http://users.erols.com/eengineer/Pic00014sml.jpg

USS Pueblo dockside in North Korea.

This image always bothers me.

Fintin
05-04-2004, 02:43 AM
why dont we just send a tomahawk at it now and blow the bitch up....and be like....i didnt do it....just a thought...i mean its worthless now...and it would be a great F you

catdat
05-04-2004, 02:53 AM
hist2004

Have you posted anything before on her sister ship, the Liberty? I believe the Commander was awarded the MOH. Recently, the Navy Officer in charge of the investigation of the Liberty incident revealed that Johnson had ordered him to say it was an accident when in fact they concluded it was not. Too bad no one can really explore this from that viewpoint without being labeled an anti-semite.

catdat

hist2004
05-04-2004, 09:13 AM
hist2004

Have you posted anything before on her sister ship, the Liberty? I believe the Commander was awarded the MOH. Recently, the Navy Officer in charge of the investigation of the Liberty incident revealed that Johnson had ordered him to say it was an accident when in fact they concluded it was not. Too bad no one can really explore this from that viewpoint without being labeled an anti-semite.

catdat

I haven't posted any articles about the attack on the Liberty. I'm 100%
Pro-Israel, but the Israeli's knew who and what the Liberty was when
they carried out their assault.

Regards,
Hist2004

catdat
05-04-2004, 11:01 AM
hist2004

I'm Pro-Israel as well and I concur, they knew. Facing the truth about what happened in the sixties either in Israel or America or elsewhere shouldn't label one as anti-anything. That said, I am disgusted by both current adminiistration's attempts to continue to cover up the truth.

Evidence justifies reopening USS Liberty case

The bitter debate over Israel's attack on the U.S. Navy intelligence ship Liberty on June 8, 1967, seems no closer to resolution today than it was 36 years ago. Surely it's time, a generation and a half later, for the U.S. government to release everything it knows about an attack that killed 34 American sailors and intelligence analysts, wounded 171 others and has never been satisfactorily explained.

The Liberty's survivors, the families of those killed and wounded, the American people and history deserve better than a permanently unresolved controversy of this magnitude.

Israel insists that the deadly attack, which occured in international waters off the Sinai coast while the Liberty eavesdropped on combatants' communications during the Arab-Israeli Six Day War, was a tragic case of mistaken identity. Surviving members of the Liberty's crew, which suffered 70 percent casualties, are convinced that the prolonged air and sea attack was deliberate. The U.S. government, in what many charged was a transparent cover-up, officially accepted Israel's explanation of mistaken identity.

Yet, the acrimonious controversy lived on, waxing and waning through the years as each side put forth new information and conflicting interpretations.

Over the past year, those who believe that Israel's assault on the Liberty was deliberate have collected important corroborating evidence. As noted in David Walsh's essay in Sunday's Insight section, several former U.S. intelligence officials and analysts, breaking their long silence, say that electronic intercepts of the attacking pilots' radio communications that day prove that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship.

Oliver Kirby, a former operations director for the super-secret National Security Agency (for which the Liberty was collecting intelligence), was assigned by NSA in 1967 to review classified information on the attack. In a recent telephone interview with Jim Ennes, a retired naval officer and Liberty survivor, Kirby's first words were, "I can tell you for an absolute certainty that they (the Israelis) knew they were attacking an American ship."

Ward Boston, a retired Navy captain who served as chief legal officer to a Navy court of inquiry on the Liberty attack, says the court's finding of "mistaken identity" was dictated by then-President Lyndon Johnson and Defense Secretary Robert McNamara. Boston cites "overwhelming evidence" to the contrary that the naval court was ordered to ignore.

These recent revelations, among others, argue persuasively for reopening the Liberty case if the truth is ever to be discovered. Clearly, the U.S. government, not to mention Israel's government, continues to conceal vital information about the Liberty attack. Claims to the contrary notwithstanding, Israel's attack on the Liberty has never been properly investigated.

Almost 37 years after the fact, it's time it was.

The Liberty website is packed with info :
http://www.ussliberty.org/

S'13
05-04-2004, 12:03 PM
I have only one question to those who belive that the attack on the Liberty was deliberate, what did Israel have to gain from such an attack?

This was in a middle of a war for the nation's survival and Israel needed an attack on a ship which belonged to one of the superpowers as much as a person needs a hole in his head...

catdat
05-04-2004, 12:34 PM
S'13 wrote:
I have only one question to those who belive that the attack on the Liberty was deliberate, what did Israel have to gain from such an attack?

I don't want to start a thread that is Israel vs. USA.

There are several theories. The one that make's the most sense to me is this: They hoped to sink the boat with all hands and blame it on the Syrians thus drawing (hopefully) the US into the conflict directly. There are many details which support this theory such as the electranic jamming before and during the attack and Johnson's refusal to allow the nearby American Fleet to intervene and the Israeli PT boats firing on and destroying all the lifeboats.

Is there anyone from Israel that can look at this objectively?

As I stated before, it's my belief that the Johnson Administration was responsible for many reprehensible acts. Does my belief make me anti-american? Certainly not.


catdat
The truth will set you free

S'13
05-04-2004, 02:00 PM
I don't want to start a thread that is Israel vs. USA.

It doesn't have to be a Israel vs. USA thread if we debate this topic in a civil way (however this isn't the subject of the thread in the first place).

There are several theories. The one that make's the most sense to me is this: They hoped to sink the boat with all hands and blame it on the Syrians thus drawing (hopefully) the US into the conflict directly. There
are many details which support this theory such as the electranic jamming before and during the attack and Johnson's refusal to allow the nearby American Fleet to intervene and the Israeli PT boats firing on and destroying all the lifeboats.

However in reality the attack was stoped in the middle once Israeli forces were aware that they were attacking a U.S naval ship.

Is there anyone from Israel that can look at this objectively?

We can say the same about anyone from the U.S.

Does my belief make me anti-american? Certainly not.

No one claimed you were.

catdat
05-04-2004, 02:49 PM
It doesn't have to be a Israel vs. USA thread if we debate this topic in a civil way (however this isn't the subject of the thread in the first place).

it might be better this way - maybe we won't have to seperate "the wheat from the chaff" in the thread if all the nut cases can't find it.

However in reality the attack was stopped in the middle once Israeli forces were aware that they were attacking a U.S naval ship.

I think they stopped after three hours either because it was clear that it wasn't going to sink as easy as anticipated or from the threat of American planes intervening (these had been launched but called back by MacNamara).

Did you bother reading the article on this I quoted initially? "Several former U.S. intelligence officials and analysts, breaking their long silence, say that electronic intercepts of the attacking pilots' radio communications that day prove that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship."

and:

"Oliver Kirby, a former operations director for the super-secret National Security Agency (for which the Liberty was collecting intelligence), was assigned by NSA in 1967 to review classified information on the attack. In a recent telephone interview with Jim Ennes, a retired naval officer and Liberty survivor, Kirby's first words were, "I can tell you for an absolute certainty that they (the Israelis) knew they were attacking an American ship."

We can say the same about anyone from the U.S.

No. In the US there have been many opinions voiced and books written on both sides of this issue. I have yet to hear one dissenting opinion from anyone Israel. Except heresay of ex-Israeli pilots.

No one claimed you were.

Only making the point that I can be objective about history without being blinded by nationalism.

IDFM203
05-04-2004, 02:52 PM
The truth will set you freeyes indeed and I can only hope that you as well follow that.

It’s become my opinion that Americans that believe it was a malicious attack on purpose, often its more of them that refuse to look at it objectively and follow the line above.


Listen I have gone over this whole debate many times before so I will just make a few short point and then link you to a long thread that discusses in detail every point that you might have.

First point, that liberty spy ship was in waters in middle of a war zone in the midst of any all out war and that has lots of relevance to accidents in the fog of war then merely the international waters line that a lot like to use as if that negates all the circumstances of where that spy ship was.

My second point is that the liberty site and the survivers that wrote it have no bearing on what Israel or the piolets knew when they were shooing at that ship so they cant add anything more other then that it was Israeli planes and torpedo boats attacking it whic NO ONE disputes.

Lastly I have a question of my own which i never seem to get a answer for..

What was that spy ship doing in waters in middle of a war zone in the midst of an all out war? They weren’t even supposed to be in the war theater at all, at least that was the assurances that the U.S. gave to Israel for precisely the reason of avoiding accidental shooting in the midst of that all out war.

Anyways it’s a very tiring debate which I am sure somehow this is going to lead into it again,though I suggest you read this thread here where its already been discussed in almost full detail (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4684&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=liberty&start=0)

Shalom :D

S'13
05-04-2004, 03:30 PM
it might be better this way - maybe we won't have to seperate "the wheat from the chaff" in the thread if all the nut cases can't find it.

I totaly agree :)

I think they stopped after three hours either because it was clear that it wasn't going to sink as easy as anticipated or from the threat of American planes intervening (these had been launched but called back by MacNamara).

Ok, lets agree this is one of those points of controversy in which neither of us can prove our arguments beyond a doubt.
I still belive the attack was stopped in the middle once Israeli forces were aware that they were attacking a U.S naval ship.
And you most probably still belive the claim you posted above.




Did you bother reading the article on this I quoted initially? "Several former U.S. intelligence officials and analysts, breaking their long silence, say that electronic intercepts of the attacking pilots' radio communications that day prove that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship."

and:

"Oliver Kirby, a former operations director for the super-secret National Security Agency (for which the Liberty was collecting intelligence), was assigned by NSA in 1967 to review classified information on the attack. In a recent telephone interview with Jim Ennes, a retired naval officer and Liberty survivor, Kirby's first words were, "I can tell you for an absolute certainty that they (the Israelis) knew they were attacking an American ship."

Actually I did read the article, however it troubles me that the article doesn't state the names of the so called "several former U.S. intelligence officials and analysts."
As for Oliver Kirby, well where is his proof to back up his claim?
What did he see in the "classified information" that convinced him?
Also take into account that he reviewed the information back in 1967 and I don't think the U.S knew a lot back then so soon after the tragedy.

I can give you the account of an Israeli pilot...


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull%26cid=1065773796483

Pilot who bombed 'Liberty' talks to 'Post
By ARIEH O'SULLIVAN


An Israeli pilot who mistakenly attacked the American intelligence ship USS Liberty during the 1967 Six Day War said they were lucky he had no bombs – otherwise he would have sunk her.

"There was a mistake. Mistakes happen. As far as I know, the mistake was of the USS Liberty being there in the first place," said Brig.-Gen. (res.) Yiftah Spector.


After 36 years Spector, who this week was dismissed by the IAF for signing the pilots' refusal letter protesting the policy of targeted killings, agreed to speak to a reporter for the first time on his role in the attack on the Liberty, an American spy ship strafed on the fourth day of the war.

Flying a Mirage III fighter jet code named "Kursa" or couch, Spector was the first pilot to reach the ship, which was about 20 nautical miles west of Gaza. He had been on an air-to-air mission and was not loaded with bombs.

Spector, now 63, went on to become a triple ace, shooting down 15 enemy aircraft, and take part in the 1981 raid on the Iraqi nuclear reactor, earning himself a place in the pantheon of Israeli fly boys. This week he ended a 20-year stint teaching new generations of pilots.

Spector had always refused to discuss the attack on the USS Liberty, which killed 34 US sailors and wounded 172, or even be revealed as the pilot who led the attack on her. Until now.

"I did not fire on the Liberty as a human target. I was sent to attack a sailing vessel. This ship was on an escape route from the El Arish area, which at that same moment had heavy smoke rising from it," Spector said.

"It was thought to be an Egyptian vessel. This ship positively did not have any symbol or flag that I could see. What I was concerned with was that it was not one of ours. I looked for the symbol of our navy, which was a large white cross on its deck," he told The Jerusalem Post. "This was not there, so it wasn't one of ours."

The concern of the IAF was that Spector and his wingman, who had been diverted from the Suez Canal, would strike one of the Israel Navy ships in pursuit of the vessel, which was assumed to be Egyptian. IAF archival recordings of the pilots' radio transmission of the actual attack obtained by the Post show that Spector was specifically requested to verify that the ship was a military vessel and not Israeli.

According to the June 8, 1967, radio transmission, Spector said: "I can't identify it but in any case it's a military ship."

Speaking of the event 36 years later may have caused Spector to mix what he remembered with what he may have read and his testimony does not always match archival facts.

"I circled it twice and it did not fire on me. My assumption was that it was likely to open fire at me and nevertheless I slowed down and I looked and there was positively no flag. Just to make sure I photographed it," said Spector, who retired from active duty as a brigadier-general in 1984.

Experts intimately acquainted with the incident said that the only photos Spector took were from his gun-sight camera during his strafing run. Regardless of whether the 455-foot ship bristling with eavesdropping antennas flew a US flag, which it evidently did from its starboard halyard, that banner was shot off in Spector's first strafing pass.

"I was told on the radio that it was an Egyptian ship off the Gaza coast. Hit it. The luck of the ship was that I was armed only with light ammunition [30mm] against aircraft. If I had had a bomb it would be sitting on the bottom today like the Titanic. I promise you," Spector said.

The 30mm rounds were armor piercing, which to this day led Liberty survivors to believe they had been under rocket attack. Spector's first pass ignited a fire which caused the ship to billow black smoke. Ironically, Spector transmitted he suspected the Liberty was putting out smoke to deliberately mask itself.

"Every order is given by commanders and the last one to receive it has to decide whether he will pull the trigger or not. In this instance I was the fighter. I checked what I had to check [i.e. that it was a military ship and not one of ours] and pulled the trigger," Spector said.

"The crew should be thankful for their luck [that I was on an air-to-air mission and did not have any bombs]. It is a pity we attacked. I'm sorry for poor Capt. (William Loren) McGonagle, who was wounded in the leg and the other guys who were killed and wounded."

"I'm sorry for the mistake. Years later my mates dropped flowers on the site where the ship was attacked," Spector said. "I'm the last guy who has a problem with admitting mistakes and asking for forgiveness. There was a mistake, but it wasn't my mistake."

He added he remains baffled that the conspiracy theories live on that Israel deliberately attacked the US intelligence ship. He suggested it might be due to anti-Semitism, or anti-Israeli sentiments.

"I know that after the war one of the first things that was done was the establishment of a [US] senator's inquiry. I know this personally, because I was called upon to testify before it. They came to the country and I was questioned. I told them what I told you just now – that there was a mistake. I am sorry for the mistake. In war mistakes happen," Spector said.

He said that he had never in the past 36 years ever met with any of the Liberty survivors, but has no qualms about doing so now.

"They must understand that a mistake was made here," Spector said. "The fool is one who wanders about in the dark in dangerous places, so they should not come with any complaints."

No. In the US there have been many opinions voiced and books written on both sides of this issue. I have yet to hear one dissenting opinion from anyone Israel. Except heresay of ex-Israeli pilots.

If you will look hard enough you will see that in Israel there is a wide range of opinions about any matter...

S'13
05-04-2004, 04:08 PM
There are several theories. The one that make's the most sense to me is this: They hoped to sink the boat with all hands and blame it on the Syrians thus drawing (hopefully) the US into the conflict directly. There
are many details which support this theory such as the electranic jamming before and during the attack and Johnson's refusal to allow the nearby American Fleet to intervene and the Israeli PT boats firing on and destroying all the lifeboats.

I would like to refer to this theory once again.

It wasn't logical for Israel to try and draw the U.S into the conflict since it was already clear on the 4th day of the war, June the 8th, 1967 (the day of the tragedy) that Israel had the upper hand on its enemies (Israel reached aerial supremacy already on the first day of the war).
If the U.S was indeed to get involved in favor of Israel, it would surely have brought the Soviets to get involved and that's something Israel would have disliked very much...

catdat
05-04-2004, 05:11 PM
t troubles me that the article doesn't state the names of the so called "several former U.S. intelligence officials and analysts."

Analysts:
Steven Forslund and Ron Gotcher

Intelligence Officials:
CIA Director at the time of the attack
two Deputy Directors of the CIA(Admiral Rufus Taylor memo and Admiral Bobby Ray Inman)
two Directors of the NSA
two Deputy Directors of the NSA(Admiral Inman included again)
the statement of the Former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Moorer regarding his conversation with the Captains of the USS Saratoga and the USS America
the Chief Prosecutor of the Naval Court of Inquiry(Ward Boston).


I'll respond to the links you sent soon.
catdat

2Sheds_Jackson
05-05-2004, 06:58 PM
I've read through the decas NSA transcripts, and IMHO it appears to me that it was a mistake. For any interested, here are the scans of the NSA docs. They're marked "secret savin" - boy, that was before my time!

They detail the actual radio conversations between the aircraft & ground controllers (we're always listening!)

http://www.fas.org/irp/nsa/liberty.pdf

Kind of hard to wade through, but interesting. I guess they could have been altered, but things like that do tend to leak out eventually. . . .

catdat
05-05-2004, 10:25 PM
Thanks 2sheds_jackson but I'm not sure what that proves. The very second sentence is :

THIS ACTIVITY DEALS SOLELY WITH THE AFTERMATH OF THE ATTACK BY ISRAELI JETS AND TORPEDO BOATS ON THE LIBERTY (GTR5). THERE ARE NO COMINT REFLECTIONS OF THE ACTUAL ATTAC ITSELF.

So coincidently, I'm to believe that the Aircraft that intercepted and recorded these conversations only began to do so after the attack? How convenient. The analysts on that plane have stated that they overheard communications during the attack that indicated that Israel knew it was a US ship.

BTW the intercepts here are from Israeli helicopters not jet aircraft.

catdat
05-06-2004, 11:05 AM
I have read the six pages of thread that IDFM203 provided in a link and I note how vehemently he and S'13 defend Israel's actions. I asked this question before: "Is there anyone from Israel that can look at this objectively? I don't see any evidence that compels me to believe that either of you will stray from the official excuses that Israel has spouted since the incident. Therefore I don't believe anything productive will be forthcoming in this thread.

I don't know why Israel attacked the ship. It's really up to Israel to come clean about this. If she did (come clean) I'm sure everything would be forgiven overnight. If, on the other hand, you let the further declassification of documents and information reveal complicity then the American public will be moved by anger to respond.

The excuse that your fantasticly experienced air force mistakenly believed that this unarmed ship was capable of a shore bombardment and/or 30 knots speed is ludicrous. Even the rust bucket, EL QUESIR, only had a top speed of 14 knots. You would also have us believe that everyone in your Air Force did not know every Egyptian naval vessel by sight? Come now, how big was their Navy again?

There have been few witnesses to come forward. Many of the top ranking people on both sides of this issue have passed away. Some witnesses site fear such as retired Israeli Officer Seth Mintz, who was in the War Room prior to and during the attack. "grave anxiety over the media interest in him" with regard to the Liberty affair. He told Ha'aretz: "Everyone is after me now, and that is what I'm afraid of. I don't need the Mossad and Shin Bet knocking on my door."

Mintz had been videotaped a few days before saying "They {the Israelis} knew ... even when it was happening. Pilots in the Mirage attack were saying that it was an American ship. You could read the numbers on the side of the ship. There was no big secret."

I note, as I stated earlier, that I see the signs of some complicity with the Johnson Administration. I can do nothing but speculate about what this relationship was but there are several issues that need to be dealt with in this regard:

1. Apparently Walworth Barbour, then U.S. ambassador to Israel, had been asked by Isreal about the nature of the ship and replied that it was not a US ship. When asked about this Johnson stated:"We saw no need to inform Israel or any other party to the hostilities of the Liberty's location since the ship was on a peaceful mission and was in international waters. I have seen a report alleging that the Israeli Government had asked us about the presence of the ship prior to the attack, but that report is not true."
This condradicts what Minsk said: "Barbour {Walworth Barbour, then U.S. ambassador to Israel} said it was not an American ship," Mintz told us. "The ship had been marked and tracked {in the war room} on a chart board. Everyone in the room felt it was an American ship, and that it was the Liberty ... it matched Jane's Fighting Ships. The consensus in the room was that it was not the El Quseir." (Note that it is not uncommon for a country to deny the presence of it's spy ship so although doing so may have provided Israel a precedent for attacking it, this is not a good excuse unto itself).

2. Captain Joseph Tully, USN Commander of the USS Saratoga stated that he received this message at appox. 14:00:
From: USS Liberty
To: Any or all US ships or stations

Liberty is under attack by unknown enemy air and surface units. Request
Assistance.

Captain Tully launched jet aircraft to support the Libery moments after the attack started. Those were recalled without explanation by order of
Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara while the attack continued. Men on Saratoga's bridge could hear Liberty's radiomen calling for help by radio while rockets burst in the background. Here Tully desribes the second launch of rescue aircraft:
Tully: An order was issued, from either [Sixth Fleet Commander Vice Admiral William I.] Martin or [Carrier Force Commander Rear Admiral Lawrence R.] Geis, to be ready to launch in 90 minutes following that first launch that I made. I went back and said, hell, I can launch right now. But somebody wanted the USS America to participate in the launch. So 90 minutes later we sent planes all over again. Then they were recalled (again) while everybody was still in sight.

Host: They were recalled a second time?

Tully: A second time. Exactly. Ninety minutes after the first launch. I have forgotten whether it was Martin or Geis who called them back.

Host: As you look back on this now, where does it leave you?

Tully: Puzzled.

3.Ward Boston, who in June of 1967 was serving as Captain in the Judge Advocate General Corps, was assigned as senior legal counsel for the Navy’s Court of Inquiry into the attack on USS Liberty, which had occurred on June 8th.
I know from personal conversations I had with Admiral Kidd that President Lyndon Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara ordered him to conclude that the attack was a case of “mistaken identity” despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Admiral Kidd told me, after returning from Washington, D.C. that he had been ordered to sit down with two civilians from either the White House or the Defense Department, and rewrite portions of the court’s findings.
Admiral Kidd also told me that he had been ordered to “put the lid” on everything having to do with the attack on USS Liberty. We were never to speak of it and we were to caution everyone else involved that they could never speak of it again.
I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of that statement as I know that the Court of Inquiry transcript that has been released to the public is not the same one that I certified and sent off to Washington.

None of this "news" of course suprises me. Lyndon Johnson is the worm responsible for escalating our participation in Vietnam. It's recently been alledged that he may have ascended to the Presidency because he had a hand in JFK's assassination and the subsequent coverup. The more we learn about LBJ, the more we abhor. The passage of time has not been gentle on LBJ. I hope that Israel can deal with the skeletons in it's closet before they are exposed in other ways.

catdat

hist2004
05-06-2004, 11:17 AM
This has gone way off topic, the idea that Israel, with the world’s most renowned Intelligence
Agency (Mossad) didn’t know or couldn’t identify a naval ship near their theatre of operations
on the eve of a war is ludicrous. They objected to the US eavesdropping and took action against
us, the men who died or suffered injuries are the victims of politics, both ours and Israel’s.

Regards,
Hist2004

S'13
05-06-2004, 11:56 AM
The USS Liberty: Case Closed
Michael B. Oren

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Early in the afternoon of June 8, 1967, Israeli jets and missile boats opened fire on the USS Liberty, an American surveillance ship operating off the coast of Gaza. Struck by rockets, cannons and torpedoes, the vessel suffered extensive damage and over 200 casualties. Israeli forces were then engaged in the fourth day of what would soon be called the Six Day War, which would result in a devastating defeat for the combined armies of Egypt, Syria and Jordan.

At first overshadowed by Israel's stunning victory, the attack on the Liberty was destined to become a recurring source of tension between Israel and the United States. Although Israel apologized for the attack and paid compensation to its victims, many American officials rejected Israel's claim that the Liberty incident had been an honest mistake. Rather, they blamed Israel for what was at best inexcusable negligence, or at worst the premeditated murder of American servicemen. Such charges persisted in the face of successive inquiries by a broad range of American agencies and Congressional committees, as well as a full Israeli court of inquiry, all of which found no proof whatsoever that Israel knowingly attacked an American ship. On the contrary, the evidence produced by these investigations lent further support to Israel's claim that its decision to attack was, given the circumstances, a reasonable error.

These findings notwithstanding, the case of the assault on the Liberty has never been closed. If anything, the accusations leveled against Israel have grown sharper with time. In recent years, an impressive number of former American officials have gone on record insisting that the Israeli action was, in fact, deliberate. These include Adm. Thomas H. Moorer, who was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) at the time of the Liberty incident, who has labeled the episode a "cover-up," adding that he "cannot accept the claim by the Israelis that this was a case of mistaken identity."1 Paul C. Warnke, then Under Secretary of the Navy, has written that

I found it hard to believe that it was, in fact, an honest mistake on the part of the Israeli air force units.... I suspect that in the heat of battle they figured that the presence of this American ship was inimical to their interests.... 2


Similarly, former Secretary of State Dean Rusk has called the attack "outrageous," adding in a 1990 radio interview that "the Liberty was flying an American flag. It was not all that difficult to identify, and my judgment was that somewhere along the line some fairly senior Israeli official gave the go- ahead for these attacks...."3 David G. Nes, who at the time served as deputy head of the American mission in Cairo, puts it more bluntly: "I don't think that there's any doubt that it was deliberate.... one of the great cover-ups of our military history."4 And George Ball, then Under Secretary of State, has called the American government's response to the assault an "elaborate charade.... American leaders did not have the courage to punish Israel for the blatant murder of its citizens."5

Support for these charges can be found in a wide range of publications on the Liberty incident. Assault on the Liberty, a 1979 memoir by former Liberty officer Jim Ennes, Jr., describes the attack as intentional and malicious, and argues that the truth has been obscured by a massive cover-up conducted by Israel and its advocates abroad. This allegation has been repeated in Richard Deacon's The Israeli Secret Service (1977), in John Ranelagh's The Agency: The Rise and Decline of the CIA (1986), and in Andrew and Leslie Cockburn's Dangerous Liaison: The Inside Story of the U.S.-Israel Covert Relationship (1991). The cover-up theory is also central to Stephen Green's Taking Sides: America's Secret Relations with a Militant Israel (1984), one of the best-selling of all anti-Israel polemics. Nor is the charge of Israeli premeditation confined to books aimed at a popular audience. It also features prominently in academic works such as The USS Liberty: Dissenting History vs. Official History by historian John E. Borne (1993), as well as Donald Neff's Warriors for Jerusalem: The Six Days that Changed the Middle East (1984), considered by many scholars a standard text on the Six Day War.6 Indeed, so powerful is the trend towards acceptance of Israeli guilt for having planned the attack that a 1995 issue of the International Journal of Intelligence and Counterintelligence was able to carry the assertion of Reverdy S. Fishel that "all serious scholarship on the subject accepts Israel's assault as having been perpetrated quite deliberately...."7

The claim that Israel's attack on the Liberty was premeditated has also appeared persistently in the press. In 1992, nationally syndicated columnists Roland Evans and Robert Novak dedicated a column, "Twenty-Five Years of Cover-Up,"8 to this charge. Similar accusations have been aired on television programs such as ABC's 20/20 and Geraldo Rivera's Now It Can Be Told.9 The claim is particularly widespread on the Internet, where a search for the "USS Liberty" yields dozens of sites, from those of Arab propagandists (Birzeit.edu, Salam.org, Palestine Forever) and anti-Semitic hate mongers (The Tangled Web, Jew Watch) to the award-winning USS Liberty Homepage, posted by Ennes and other veterans. But while the tenor of these pages may differ - the veterans abjure any anti-Semitism, stressing that several of their crewmates were Jewish - their conclusions are indistinguishable: Israel wantonly attacked the Liberty with the intention of killing every man on board, and then thwarted attempts to investigate the crime.10

Refuting this accusation was difficult if not impossible in the past, when the official records on the Liberty were designated top-secret and closed to the general public. With the recent declassification of these documents in the United States and Israel, however, researchers have gained access to a wealth of primary sources - Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and U.S. military records, Israeli diplomatic correspondence, and memoranda from both the State Department and the White House. With the aid of these materials, the attack on the Liberty can now be reconstructed virtually minute-by-minute and with remarkable detail. The picture that emerges is not one of crime at all, nor even of criminal negligence, but of a string of failed communications, human errors, unfortunate coincidences and equipment failures on both the American and Israeli sides - the kind of tragic, senseless mistake that is all too common in the thick of war.

The USS Liberty was cruising from Norfolk, Virginia to Abidjan on the Ivory Coast when, in mid-May 1967, crisis erupted in the Middle East. Without warning, Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser sent thousands of troops into the Sinai desert, ousted the UN peacekeeping forces stationed there and then closed the Straits of Tiran - the critical waterway leading to Israel's southern port of Eilat - to Israeli shipping.

In weighing its response, the Israeli government consulted with President Lyndon Johnson, who, though preoccupied with the Vietnam War, was sympathetic to Israel's plight. The President proposed to challenge the Tiran blockade with an international maritime convoy and on May 24, in preparation for this plan, he ordered the U.S. Sixth Fleet to advance into the eastern Mediterranean. Aware of the danger of becoming embroiled in an Arab-Israeli war, however, Washington cautioned the fleet to remain, until further notice, "outside an arc whose radius is 240 miles from Port Said," on the Egyptian coast.11

At this time, the Liberty was formally under the command of the Sixth Fleet, although in practice its orders came directly from the Joint Chiefs of Staff, operating under the aegis of the National Security Agency (NSA). Code-named "Rockstar," the 455-foot "Auxiliary General Technical Research Ship (agtr)," as it was euphemistically called, was in fact a signals intelligence vessel (sigint) equipped with cutting-edge listening and decoding devices. Among its 294-man crew were several dozen members of the Naval Security Group, who worked below the starboard deck in an area strictly off-limits even to the Liberty's skipper, Cmdr. William L. McGonagle. The ship sported large antennas and radar discs, but apart from four .50-caliber machine-gun mounts, it had no visible armaments. The markings "GTR-5" were freshly painted on its bow, and from its mast flew a standard, navy-issue American flag.

As the Sixth Fleet steamed toward the eastern Mediterranean, the Liberty headed for Rota, Spain. There, in addition to supplies, it took on three Marine Corps Arabic translators, augmenting the three NSA Russian-language experts already on board. Then, on May 30, McGonagle received new instructions to sail "at best speed" to a point just half a mile outside Egyptian and Israeli territorial waters, which extended twelve and six nautical miles, respectively, from the coast. The order, originating with the JCS, superseded a request by the U.S. Naval Command in Europe (cinceur) to hold the Liberty in Rota "until directed otherwise." Neither cinceur nor McGonagle was aware of the Liberty's objective, later described by the Defense Department as "assuring communications between U.S. government posts... and assisting in... the evacuation of American citizens." Though the exact nature of its mission remains classified, the Liberty was most likely sent to track the movements of Egyptian troops and their Soviet advisors in Sinai - hence the need for Arabic and Russian translators.12

Johnson's idea of a convoy aimed at breaking the blockade came to nothing, and Nasser's troops remained mobilized in the Sinai. Syrian and Jordanian forces were also poised to attack. On the morning of June 5, with diplomatic options exhausted, the Israeli government went to war.13 The IDF launched lightning air and ground strikes against Egypt, quickly gaining the initiative, and repulsed attacks from Syria and Jordan. Yet the Israelis remained highly concerned about threats to their coastline, along which most of the country's major industrial and population centers were situated. The Egyptian navy outnumbered Israel's by more than five to one in warships and, in a crisis, could call on the support of some seventy Soviet vessels in the vicinity.14 The failure of the Israeli navy's attacks on Egyptian and Syrian ports early in the war did little to assuage Israel's fears. Consequently, the IDF Chief of Staff, Gen. Yitzhak Rabin, informed the U.S. Naval Attaché in Tel Aviv, Cmdr. Ernest Carl Castle, that Israel would defend its coast with every means at its disposal. Unidentified vessels would be sunk, Rabin advised; the United States should either acknowledge its ships in the area or remove them.15 Nonetheless, the Americans provided Israel with no information on the Liberty. The United States had also rejected Israel's request for a formal naval liaison. On May 31, Avraham Harman, Israel's ambassador to Washington, had warned Under Secretary of State Eugene V. Rostow that "if war breaks out, we would have no telephone number to call, no code for plane recognition, and no way to get in touch with the U.S. Sixth Fleet."16

Before dawn on June 8, three days into the war, the Liberty finally reached its destination, barely within international waters north of the Sinai coast. Plying at a speed of five knots between Port Said and Gaza, the Liberty entered a lane rarely used by commercial freighters, which Egypt had declared closed to neutral vessels. Anxious about his proximity to the fighting, McGonagle asked the Sixth Fleet commander, Vice-Adm. William Martin, for permission to pull back from the shore, or else to be provided with a destroyer escort. Martin rejected these requests, noting that the Liberty "is a clearly marked United States ship in international waters and not a reasonable subject for attack by any nation."

Unbeknownst to both Martin and McGonagle, however, the JCS had repeatedly cabled the Liberty the previous night with instructions to withdraw to a distance of one hundred miles from the Egyptian and Israeli coasts. The transmission was delayed, however, by the navy's overloaded, overly complex communication system, which routed messages as far east as the Philippines before relaying them to their destinations. The JCS' orders would not be received by the Liberty until the following day, June 9, by which time they would no longer be relevant.17

At 5:55 a.m. on June 8, Cmdr. Uri Meretz, a naval observer aboard an Israel Air Force (IAF) reconnaissance plane, noted what he believed to be an American supply vessel, designated GTR-5, seventy miles west of the Gaza coast. At Israeli naval headquarters in Haifa, staff officers fixed the location of the ship with a red marker, indicating "unidentified," on their control board. Research in Jane's Fighting Ships, however, established the vessel's identity as "the electromagnetic audio-surveillance ship of the United States, the Liberty." The marker was changed to green, for "neutral." Another sighting of the ship - "gray, bulky, with its bridge amidships" - was made by an Israeli fighter aircraft at 9:00 a.m., twenty miles north of El-Arish, on the Sinai coast, which had fallen to Israeli forces the day before.18 Neither of these reports made mention of the 5-by-8-foot American flag which, according to the ship's crewmen, was flying from the Liberty's starboard halyard.

The crew would also testify later that six IAF aircraft subsequently flew over the ship, giving them ample opportunity to identify its nationality. Israel Air Force reports, however, make no further mention of the Liberty.19 There may indeed have been additional Israeli overflights, but the IAF pilots were not looking for the Liberty. Their target was Egyptian submarines, which had been spotted off the coast. At 11:00 a.m., while the hunt for Egyptian submarines was on, the officer on duty at Israel's naval headquarters, Capt. Avraham Lunz, concluded his shift. In accordance with procedures, he removed the Liberty's green marker on the grounds that it was already five hours old and no longer accurate.20



Then, at 11:24, a terrific explosion rocked the shores of El-Arish. The blast was clearly heard by the men on the Liberty's bridge, who had been navigating according to the town's tallest minaret, and who also noted a thick pall of smoke wafting toward them. In El-Arish itself, Israeli forces were convinced they were being bombarded from the sea, and the IDF Southern Command reported sighting two unidentified vessels close offshore. Though the explosion probably resulted from an ammunition dump fire, that fact was unknown at the time, and both Egyptian and Israeli sources had reported shelling of the area by Egyptian warships the previous day. There was therefore good reason to conclude that the Egyptian navy had trained its guns on Sinai.21

Minutes after the explosion, the Liberty reached the eastern limit of its patrol and turned 238 degrees back in the direction of Port Said. Meanwhile, reports of a naval bombardment on El-Arish continued to reach IDF General Staff Headquarters in Tel Aviv. Rabin took them seriously, concerned that the shelling was a prelude to an amphibious landing that could outflank advancing Israeli troops. He reiterated the standing order to sink any unidentified ships in the war area, but also advised caution: Soviet vessels were reportedly operating nearby. Since no fighter planes were available, the navy was asked to intercede, with the assumption that air cover would be provided later. More than half an hour passed without any response from naval headquarters in Haifa. The General Staff finally issued a rebuke: "The coast is being shelled and you - the navy - have done nothing."22 Capt. Izzy Rahav, who had replaced Lunz in the operations room, needed no more prodding. He dispatched three torpedo boats of the 914th squadron, code-named "Pagoda," to find the enemy vessel responsible for the bombardment and destroy it. The time was 12:05 p.m.

At 1:41 p.m., Ensign Aharon Yifrah, combat information officer aboard the flagship of these torpedo boats, T-204, informed its captain, Cmdr. Moshe Oren,23 that an unidentified ship had been sighted northeast of El-Arish at a range of 22 miles. The ship was sailing toward Egypt at a speed, Yifrah estimated, of 30 knots.

Yifrah's assessment, twice recalculated and confirmed by him, was pivotal. It meant that the ship could not be the Liberty, whose maximum speed was 18 knots. Moreover, the Israelis had standing orders to fire on any unknown vessel in the area sailing at over 20 knots, a speed which, at that time, could only be attained by fighting ships. This information, when added to the ship's direction, indicated that the target was an enemy destroyer fleeing toward port after having shelled El-Arish.

The torpedo boats gave chase, but even at their maximum speed of 36 knots, they did not expect to overtake their target before it reached Egypt. Rahav therefore alerted the air force, and two Mirage III fighters were diverted from the Suez Canal, northeast to the sea. When they arrived, the vessel they saw was "gray with two guns in the forecastle, a mast and funnel." Making two passes at 3,000 feet, formation commander Capt. Spector (IDF records do not provide pilots' first names) reckoned that the ship was a "Z" or Hunt-class destroyer without the deck markings (a white cross on a red background) of the Israeli navy. Spector then spoke with air force commander Gen. Motti Hod, who asked him repeatedly whether he could see a flag. The answer was "Negative." Nor were there any distinguishing marks other than some "black letters" painted on the hull.

IAF Intelligence Chief Col. Yeshayahu Bareket also claimed to have contacted American Naval Attaché Castle at this point in an attempt to ascertain whether the suspect ship was the Liberty, but the latter professed no knowledge of the Liberty's schedule - a claim later denied by Castle but, strangely, confirmed by McGonagle.24 One fact is clear, however: After two low sweeps by the lead plane, at 1:58 p.m., the Mirages were cleared to attack.

The first salvos caught the Liberty's crew in "stand-down" mode; several officers were sunning themselves on the deck, unaware of the Israeli jets bearing down on them. Before they could take shelter, rockets and 30-mm cannon shells stitched the ship from bow to stern, severing the antennas and setting oil drums on fire. Nine men were killed in the initial assault, and several times that number wounded, among them McGonagle. Radio operators on board found most of their frequencies inoperable and barely managed to send an SOS to the Sixth Fleet. The Mirages made three strafing runs and were then joined by two additional aircraft, Israeli Super-Mysteres returning from the Mitla Pass with a payload of napalm. After fourteen minutes of action, the pilots reported having made good hits - over eight hundred holes would later be counted in the hull. The entire superstructure of the ship, from the main deck to the bridge, was aflame.

Throughout these sorties, no one aboard the Liberty suspected that the planes were Israeli. Indeed, rumors spread that the attackers were Egyptian MiGs. After the first strike, the visibility that had enabled crewmen to identify IAF reconnaissance craft earlier in the day was lost to the smoke of battle. One of the Israeli pilots, curious as to why the vessel had not returned fire, made a final pass at ninety feet. "I see no flag," he told headquarters. "But there are markings on the hull - Charlie-Tango-Romeo-five."25

While Egyptian naval ships were known to disguise their identities with Western markings, they usually displayed Arabic letters and numbers only. The fact that the ship had Western markings led Rabin to fear that it was Soviet, and he immediately called off the jets. Two IAF Hornet helicopters were sent to look for survivors - Spector had reported seeing men overboard - while the torpedo boat squadron was ordered to hold its fire pending further attempts at identification. Though that order was recorded in the torpedo boat's log, Oren claimed he never received it.26 It was now 2:20 in the afternoon; twenty-four minutes would pass before the squadron made contact with the Liberty.

During that interval, the ship's original flag, having been shredded during the attack, was replaced by a larger (7-by-13-foot) holiday ensign. As the crew labored to tend to the wounded, extinguish the fire, and burn classified papers, contact was finally made with the Sixth Fleet. "Help is on the way," replied the carrier America, which quickly unleashed eight of its most readily available warplanes - F-104s armed with nuclear weapons. Before they reached their objective, however, the jets were recalled by Vice-Adm. Martin. If Rabin feared that the ship was Russian, Martin suspected that its attackers were Russian, and without authorization from the highest level, he did not want to risk starting a nuclear war.27

Meanwhile, the Israeli torpedo boats came within range. The Liberty was shrouded in smoke, but even so, Oren could see that it could not be the destroyer that had supposedly shelled El-Arish. Rather, he believed, it was a slower-moving vessel that had either serviced that destroyer or evacuated enemy soldiers from the beach. At 6,000 meters, Oren's T-204 flagship paused and signaled "AA" - "identify yourself." Due to damaged equipment, McGonagle could only reply in kind, AA, with a hand-held Aldis lamp.28 Oren remembered receiving a similar response from the Egyptian destroyer Ibrahim al-Awwal, captured by the Israeli navy in the 1956 war, and was sure that he now faced an enemy ship. Consulting his naval intelligence manual, he concluded that the vessel in front of him - its deck line, midship bridge and smokestack - resembled the Egyptian freighter El-Quseir. The officers of the other two boats reached the same conclusion independently, and followed Oren into battle formation.29

Any lingering doubts were soon dispelled as the Israeli boats came under sudden fire from the Liberty. Unaware of McGonagle's order not to shoot at the approaching boats, a sailor had opened up with one of the Brownings. Another machine gun also fired, apparently on its own, triggered by exploding ammunition. Oren repeatedly requested permission from naval headquarters to return fire. Rahav finally approved. 30

Of the five torpedoes fired at the Liberty only one found its mark, a direct hit on the starboard side, killing twenty-five, almost all of them from the intelligence section. The Israeli craft closed in, their cannons and machine guns raking the Liberty's hull and, according to the crew's testimony, its life rafts as well. One of those rafts, picked up by T-203, was found to bear U.S. Navy markings - the first indication that Oren had that the ship might be American. His suspicions mounted when while circling the badly listing ship, Oren confronted the designation GTR-5. But still no flag was spotted, and it would take another half an hour, until 3:30 p.m., to establish the vessel's identity.31

"I must admit I had mixed feelings about the news - profound regret at having attacked our friends and a tremendous sense of relief [that the boat was not Soviet]," Rabin later recalled.32 News of the ship's American nationality had arrived during an emergency meeting of the General Staff to discuss possible Soviet reprisals. An apology was immediately sent to Castle, and none too soon, as eight conventionally armed warplanes had been launched from the USS Saratoga and sanctioned to "use whatever force required to defend the Liberty."

As the American jets returned to their carrier, the two Israeli Hornets reached the Liberty and offered assistance. Oren, shouting through a bullhorn, also tried to communicate with the ship. But McGonagle refused to respond. Realizing, finally, that his assailants had been Israeli, he flagged the torpedo boats away and gestured provocatively at the Hornets. Even Castle himself, arriving just before dusk in another Israeli chopper, was denied permission to land. By 5:05 p.m., the Israelis had broken off contact, and the Liberty, navigating virtually without systems, with 34 dead and 171 wounded aboard, staggered out to sea. 33

The center of the crisis then shifted from the Mediterranean to Washington. It was only at 9:50 a.m. eastern time - nearly two hours after the first shots were fired34 - that the White House received word from the JCS that the Liberty, "located 60-100 miles north of Egypt," had been torpedoed by an unknown vessel. Johnson assumed that the Soviets were involved. To forestall further escalation, he hotlined the Kremlin with news of the attack and of the dispatch of jets from the Saratoga.

But then the Israelis informed the Americans of the "mistaken action," and Johnson, like Rabin before him, breathed a sigh of relief.35 While "strong dismay" was conveyed to Ambassador Harman, so too were the Administration's thanks for the speed of Israel's notification. Apologies soon came in from Prime Minister Levi Eshkol ("Please accept my profound condolences and convey my sympathy to all the bereaved families") and Foreign Minister Abba Eban ("I am deeply mortified and grieved by the tragic accident involving the lives and safety of Americans"), as well as from the Israeli chargé d'affaires in Washington, Efraim Evron, a personal friend of Johnson's ("I grieve with you over the lives that were lost, and share in the sorrow of the parents, wives and children of the men who died in this cruel twist of fate"). Within forty-eight hours, the Israeli government offered to compensate the victims and their families.36

At first, Israeli expressions of regret and offers of restitution seemed to satisfy the Administration, whose initial reaction was to downplay the incident. Of particular concern was the danger that the Liberty's presence in the area might reinforce Nasser's charge that the Sixth Fleet had aided Israel in the war - what Washington called "The Big Lie."37 These reservations soon faded, however, as senior officials began to ask pointed questions: Why did the Israelis attack a neutral ship on the high seas, without the slightest provocation? How had they failed to see the Liberty's flag or the freshly painted markings on its hull? How could they confuse the Liberty with the El-Quseir, a far slower, smaller boat, with no distinctive antennas? And finally, how could a ship sailing at 5 knots, whose maximum speed was 18, be gauged at 30?

"Beyond comprehension," fumed Secretary of State Dean Rusk. "We cannot accept such a situation." Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board chief Clark Clifford, known for his pro-Israeli views, reported to Johnson that the attack was "inexcusable... a flagrant act of gross negligence for which the Israeli government should be held completely responsible." While no official could explain what motivation Israel might have had for assaulting an American vessel, neither did the facts seem to square. Either the Israelis had exhibited rank incompetence - in the midst of a victory that was nothing short of brilliant - or they had struck the Liberty on purpose. Indeed, many in the Administration had already concluded that the attack was intentional and that Israel's explanations were entirely disingenuous. Increasingly, the charge of negligence gave way to one of cold-blooded murder.38

The Israelis moved to dispel these accusations with two preliminary reports on the incident. These admitted the IDF's culpability in erroneously reporting a naval barrage on El-Arish, miscalculating the Liberty's speed, and confusing the ship with the El-Quseir. Yet both studies insisted that the attack was an "innocent mistake," with no malice or gross negligence involved.39

"This makes no goddamned sense at all," remarked Under Secretary of State Eugene Rostow when presented with these findings on June 10. The attack, wrote Rusk, was "quite literally incomprehensible... an act of military recklessness reflecting wanton disregard for human life." Further umbrage was taken at the Israeli reports' suggestion that the Liberty had no business being where it was, had failed to inform Israel of its presence, and had failed to use all means (semaphores, flares, flags) to identify itself to the torpedo boats. The United States now demanded that Israel not only pay compensation but admit wrongdoing and court-martial those responsible for the attack "in accordance with international law."40

Israel rebuffed these demands, but at the same time it launched a third and even more comprehensive investigation. Headed by military jurist Col. Yeshayahu Yerushalmi, the commission delved into the question of the control-board markers, the pilots' testimonies and the orders given to the torpedo boats. Yet, while critical of the same intelligence failures noted in the earlier reports, as well as the awkward command relationship between the air force and the navy, Yerushalmi's findings were identical to those of his predecessors. "For all my regret that our forces were involved in an incident with a vessel belonging to a friendly state," he wrote, "I have not discovered any deviation from the standard of reasonable conduct which would justify a court- martial."41

The top-secret Yerushalmi report was conveyed to the Americans, who rejected it with the same mix of incredulity and indignation that had marked their responses to the previous reports. But the United States was holding its own investigations into the affair, beginning with the Navy Court of Inquiry held in Malta shortly after the attack. The hearings revealed basic contradictions in the testimonies of McGonagle and other officers regarding the length and sequence of the attack, and raised the possibility that, due to light winds, the flag might well not have been visible to Israeli pilots. Furthermore, Rear-Adm. Isaac C. Kidd, Jr., the presiding officer, found no evidence that the attack was in any way intentional, calling it "a case of mistaken identity." Subsequent closed-door inquiries were conducted by the CIA, the NSA, the JCS, as well as by both houses of Congress. All reached the same conclusion: That the Israeli attack upon the USS Liberty had been the result of error, and nothing more.

Yet suspicions of Israel's duplicity in the incident, even among high officials, lingered. As Rusk asserted many years later in his memoirs, "I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day."42

The American and Israeli investigative reports go a long way toward disproving the charge that the Israelis maliciously opened fire on a ship they knew to be American. In the three decades prior to their declassification, however, numerous theories were posited to explain why Israel, engaged in war and internationally isolated, would willingly attack its only superpower ally. Now, with the aid of the recently released documents, it is possible to determine whether any of these hypotheses had a basis in fact. Among the more far-fetched theories that have been suggested is the possibility that the Liberty was attacked because it had learned of the Israeli execution of Egyptian POWs; or that it had picked up Israeli attempts to draw Jordan into the war so that Jerusalem might be brought under Israeli control.43 But no document, American or Israeli, contains any reference to prisoner executions; neither are they mentioned in any Arabic source that has come to light to date.44 By the same token, the Jordanian attack on Israel on June 5 and the fall of Jerusalem to Israeli forces on June 7 took place well before the Liberty's arrival off the Gaza coast, and none of the documents now available in any way link the Liberty incident on June 8 to these events.

Far more serious has been the claim that the Israelis attacked the Liberty because it had been eavesdropping on Israel's plans for capturing the Golan Heights. Thus Adm. Thomas Moorer, writing in the July-August 1997 issue of The Link magazine, has speculated that

Israel was preparing to seize the Golan Heights from Syria despite President Johnson's known opposition to such a move.... And I believe [Israeli Defense Minister] Moshe Dayan concluded that he could prevent Washington from becoming aware of what Israel was up to by destroying the primary source of acquiring that information - the USS Liberty.45


Historian Donald Neff takes the supposition a step further, presenting it as fact:

If the ship could listen in on Israeli military communications, as it could, then the United States could discover Israel's plans to attack Syria. Foreknowledge of the attack might bring an ultimatum from the United States, an ultimatum that could not be ignored because Israel desperately still needed Washington's support both in the United Nations and to fend off any threats from the Soviet Union. Without the United States, the Soviet Union might directly intervene if Israel took on its last, comparatively unscathed, client, Syria.


Indeed, Neff goes so far as to posit that Israel actually delayed its attack on Syria until after the Liberty was neutralized.46

The theory that the attack on the Liberty was motivated by a desire to conceal the impending Israeli attack on the Golan Heights is not, then, confined to the extremist fringe, but has made headway in important political and academic circles. In the past, refuting it was dependent largely on appeals to common sense, such as that made by Ernest Castle, the former U.S. naval attaché, in an interview with British television:

Let us presume the Israeli high command was... fearful that the United States would learn of what was an evident Israeli plan to take the Golan, or any other plan on the part of the Israelis. Would they say, "my golly, that will irritate the United States, our great friend. We'd better not... let that happen - so let's sink their ship instead"?47


Common sense would also dictate that the Israelis, in the process of handily defeating three Arab armies, could have easily sunk a single, lightly armed ship if they had wanted to. In such a case, they would not have attacked the Liberty in broad daylight with clearly marked boats and planes - submarines could have done the job - nor would they have ultimately halted their fire and offered the ship assistance.

But it is no longer necessary to decide the argument on the basis of common sense alone. Like the other claims for Israel's alleged motive in attacking the Liberty, the one linking the assault to the Golan Heights campaign cannot withstand the scrutiny of the newly declassified documents. These confirm that Israel made no attempt to hide its preparations for an offensive against Syria, and that the United States government, relying on regular diplomatic channels, remained fully apprised of them. Thus, on June 8, the American consulate in Jerusalem reported that Israel was retaliating for Syria's bombardment of Israeli villages "in an apparent prelude to large-scale attack in effort to seize Heights overlooking border kibbutzim." That same day, U.S. Ambassador Walworth Barbour in Tel Aviv reported that "I would not, repeat not, be surprised if the reported Israeli attack [on the Golan] does take place or has already done so," and IDF Intelligence Chief Aharon Yariv told Harry McPherson, a senior White House aide who was visiting Israel at the time, that "there still remained the Syria problem and perhaps it would be necessary to give Syria a blow."48

Similarly, the United States National Archives contain no evidence to suggest that information obtained by the Liberty augmented Washington's already detailed picture of events on the Golan front and of Israel's intentions there. The Israeli records, for their part, reveal no fear whatsoever of American opposition to punishing Syria, but only of possible Soviet military intervention. (It was this fear that led Israel to delay its decision to capture the Golan until the morning of June 9.) Nor do they suggest that there was any danger of an American ultimatum. On the contrary, from his conversations with presidential advisor McGeorge Bundy and other administration officials, Foreign Minister Abba Eban understood that "official Washington would not be too aggrieved if Syria suffered some painful effects from the war that it had started...."49

Once again, there is no indication in the archives that the Israelis were troubled by the Liberty, much less considered it worthy of attack. Indeed, there is no evidence that anyone in the Israeli government, or the IDF Chief of Staff, knew of the ship's presence at all.50

The USS Liberty was decommissioned in 1968 and later sold for scrap. That same year, William McGonagle received the Congressional Medal of Honor for gallantry displayed during the attack, and Israel paid over $6 million in restitution to the families of those wounded and killed. An additional $6 million in damages was paid under a 1980 agreement in which Israel and the United States consented "not to address the issue or motive or reopen the case for any reason."51 But the case remained open nonetheless. While the controversy surrounding similar incidents would subside - the Iraqi missile attack on the USS Stark in 1987 and the downing of an Iranian jetliner by the USS Vincennes in 1988 come to mind - the bitterness over the Liberty incident endured. The release of hitherto classified papers on the incident, however, now enables us to dispel spurious theories about the incident, and to conclude that Israel's assault upon the USS Liberty was a tragic error, and nothing more. In light of the new documents, it is now possible to reconstruct the chain of mishaps on the part of both sides that led to the unintended Israeli attack.

The incident began with the ill-conceived decision to send the Liberty to the crisis-torn Middle East, a mere half-mile beyond Egyptian waters, in an area not used by commercial shipping and which Nasser had declared off-limits to neutral vessels. The Americans did not accede to Chief of Staff Rabin's request for the identification of all U.S. ships in the area or Ambassador Harman's request for a strategic liaison between Israel and the Sixth Fleet. The Liberty's dispatchers, meanwhile, overrode naval orders to keep the ship in Spain, and then failed to inform the U.S. attaché in Tel Aviv of its presence near the war zone. These mistakes were compounded by the navy's communications system, which delayed by as much as two days orders to the Liberty to withdraw 100 miles from the coast.52 Even after it was hit, the Americans had difficulty locating the Liberty, the JCS placing it at "60-100 miles north of Egypt." If neither Castle, nor cinceur, nor even the President of the United States could know where the Liberty was, it seems unreasonable to expect that the Israelis, in the thick of battle, should have been able to locate it.

The Israelis, too, committed their own share of fateful errors, as the Yerushalmi report points out: The erroneous reports of bombardment at El-Arish, the failure to replace the Liberty's marker on the board after it had been cleared, the over-eagerness of naval commanders, and worst of all, Ensign Yifrah's miscalculation of the ship's speed. Though Yerushalmi's report suggested reasons for these errors - inflexible naval procedures, the inaccuracy of speed-measuring devices - one is still left with a sense of poor organization and sloppy execution. Moreover, there were breakdowns in communications between the Israeli navy and air force stemming from inadequate command structure and the immense pressures of a multi-front war. To these factors must be added Israel's general sensitivity about its coastal defenses, and the exhaustion of its pilots after four days of uninterrupted combat. Yet none of these amount to the kind of gross negligence of which the Israelis have been accused.

And then there were "bad breaks" that are unfortunately commonplace in war: The U.S. planes that were called back because of their nuclear payload (their mere presence might have warded off the torpedo boats); the Liberty's inability to signal the approaching Israeli boats, and the machine gunner who fired on them; and the smoke that hid the identities of both the attackers and the attacked.

All of these elements combined to create a tragic "friendly fire" incident of the kind that claimed the lives of at least fifty Israeli soldiers in the Six Day War, and caused 5,373 American casualties in Vietnam in 1967 alone.53 Obviously, these findings can do little to lessen the suffering of those American servicemen who were wounded in the incident, nor can they be expected to offer comfort to the families of the dead. But they should at least permit us to bring to a close what has for a generation remained one of the most painful chapters in the history of America's relationship with the State of Israel.

[i]Michael B. Oren is a Senior Fellow at The Shalem Center in Jerusalem, and a Contributing Editor of Azure.

IDFM203
05-06-2004, 12:10 PM
Ok wow we see that you are really determined to peruse YOUR off topic discussion from what the thread was supposed to be about and go on a crusade about the liberty spy ship :roll: ….Ok I will indulge you a bit ;)

I have read the six pages of thread that IDFM203 provided in a link and I note how vehemently he and S'13 defend Israel's actions. I asked this question before: "Is there anyone from Israel that can look at this objectively? I don't see any evidence that compels me to believe that either of you will stray from the official excuses that Israel has spouted since the incident. Therefore I don't believe anything productive will be forthcoming in this thread. Interesting in that you persist with that line for after seeing your post it reminds me of what I said before It’s become my opinion that Americans that believe it was a malicious attack on purpose, often its more of them that refuse to look at it objectively and follow the line above.


I mean you have NO single PROOF whatsoever that Israel knew and planned this attack and did so on purpose to sink that ship but yet you refuse to believe anything other then Israel maliciously attacked that ship on purpose.

Listen I have said this on the other thread, if indeed it was proven that Israel maliciously attacked that ship with the intention to sink it, I too would say that’s wrong and would not support Israel’s action on that, but as of now I don’t see any proof to that and in fact almost everything leads me to show that it was a tragic accident which indeed happens in the fog of an all out war (Just like friendly fire accidents tragically happens).

Oh and of course you resort to the oft heard and LAME tactic of painting all that I wrote as official excuses instead of you addressing what I WROTE for in reality a lot are not from the government or anything official but rather from private individuals that made their own investigations that drew on all sorts of sources.


retired Israeli Officer Seth Mintz, who was in the War Room prior to and during the attack. yes the famous seth mintz amongst those that believe it was on purpose.

First of all where do you have proof that he was videotaped before saying etc…???

Secondly about him and little more

In 1991, columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak trumpeted their discovery of an American who said he had been in the Israeli war room when the decision was made to knowingly attack the American ship.4 In fact, that individual, Seth Mintz, wrote a letter to the Washington Post on November 9, 1991, in which he said he was misquoted by Evans and Novak and that the attack, was, in fact, a "case of mistaken identity." Moreover, the man who Mintz originally said had been with him, a Gen. Benni Matti, does not exist.
Also, contrary to claims that an Israeli pilot identified the ship as American on a radio tape, no one has ever produced this tape. In fact, the official Israeli Air Force tape clearly established that no such identification of the ship was made by the Israeli pilots prior to the attack. It also indicates that once the pilots became concerned about the identity of the ship, by virtue of reading its hull number, they terminated the attack. The tapes do not contain any statement suggesting the pilots saw a U.S. flag before the attack.5 Critics claimed the Israeli tape was doctored, but the National Security Agency of the United States released formerly top secret transcripts in July 2003 that confirmed the Israeli version

Or even just as recent as January of this year the NSA released more tapes that show it was an accident.

Here is an excerpt from that CNN article

In July the National Security Archive released tapes of Israeli pilots and ground control speaking in Hebrew, along with English transcripts. The recordings were made by a nearby American surveillance aircraft after the attack.

The NSA released the tapes and transcripts under the Freedom of Information Act in response to a request from Judge Jay Cristol of Miami, Florida. Cristol, who wrote a book about the attack, said the tapes show it was a tragic accident in a time of war -- that the Israelis mistook the ship for an Egyptian one.

"There was no indication they had any knowledge they were attacking a U.S. ship," Cristol told participants at the conference.

The State Department official said that though some maintain the Israeli military was too good to make such a mistake, "if they were that good and if they were that efficient and they deliberately sought to sink a ship, they damned well would have sunk it."

The official noted the Israelis attacked the ship first with cannon fire and then napalm, not specialized air-to-sea weapons.


(or to add yeah their that good that’s why we have friendly fire killings all the time)

Anyways for that article Click Here (http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/01/12/us.israel.ussliberty/index.html)




Ok a few points (again) first is that it’s a fact that the Israeli planes did NOT have the proper ammunition to sink that ship, which shows further that it was not deliberate and planned for if it was, surly they would have been properly armed and it further backs up that those planes were diverted from other on going missions in that WAR to go there and that is not a sign of any planning or any knowledge beforehand.

Secondly, I would love to hear a reasonable theory that makes sense on why Israel would want to sink that ship at all? Or even more if so why do it after the first few critical days of the war?

Lastly this is one of my own questions, what was that liberty spy ship doing in the waters in a warzone which was in the midst of an all out war??


P.S. To be honest after my first post I was going to avoid this thread for it’s a very tiring debate and one which I have already gone over in great detail though after you in a way calling me out (well mentioning my name kind of feels that way) I was in a way compelled to respond though I can only hope that this doesn’t turn into a whole long 6,7 page thread again, I suggest to avoid that you look at the other long thread and not repeat points that I had already addressed for it would be very redundant if I were just to copy my reponses from there to your posts here.

Shalom :D

catdat
05-06-2004, 02:11 PM
Oren probably should have checked to see how Posner has been received before naming his article "Case Closed". In any event, Oren is by no means a nonpartisan voice:

Michael B. Oren is a senior fellow at The Shalem Center in Jerusalem and the author most recently of Six Days of War: June 1967 and the Making of the Modern Middle East (Oxford University Press).

Oren's Six Days of War: June 1967 and the Making of the Modern Middle East reviewed by Norman Finkelstein notes in part:

Oren's account of events attendant on the June war frequently descends to vulgar propaganda. Deeming the Israeli combined air and naval assault on the U.S.S. Liberty, in which 34 U.S. Navy men were killed and 171 wounded, an "accident" and an "incident [of] faulty identifications," Oren rehashes official Israeli tales and embellishes on them with his own whoppers. He avers that Israeli reconnaissance pilots flying just overhead on a cloudless morning missed noticing the Liberty's five-by-eight-foot American flag fluttering in the wind because they "were not looking for the Liberty, but rather for Egyptian submarines"; that "the IDF could have easily sunk the Liberty," although with the IDF's extended air attack using missiles, cannon and napalm, followed by a torpedo attack followed by sustained fire on the crippled vessel that left 2/3 of the crew dead or wounded, the miracle is that the Liberty managed, just barely, to stay afloat; and that Israeli ships, after torpedoing the Liberty, "ceased firing the instant the mistake was realized and offered to assist the ship," although surviving members of the crew uniformly testify that the Israeli ships fired from close range after the torpedo explosion and after stopping near the fantail, where the Liberty's name and hull number appeared in large letters (a new oversized American flag had also been unfurled), finally firing on the life rafts in the water, and then left the area for more than an hour before returning to offer assistance (SDW: pp. 264, 271).


I mean you have NO single PROOF whatsoever that Israel knew and planned this attack and did so on purpose to sink that ship but yet you refuse to believe anything other then Israel maliciously attacked that ship on purpose.

You are correct. I have no proof. I was not in the War Room. If I had been in the War Room I would probably be subject to the same character assassination (or worse) that you provide for Mintz.

I suggest to avoid that you look at the other long thread and not repeat points that I had already addressed for it would be very redundant if I were just to copy my reponses from there to your posts here.

You don't have to repond if there are no fresh ideas on this point. In fact I wish you wouldn't as I'm sure there are other projects that the propaganda ministry needs help with.

catdat

S'13
05-06-2004, 02:39 PM
Oren's Six Days of War: June 1967 and the Making of the Modern Middle East reviewed by Norman Finkelstein notes in part:


Oren's account of events attendant on the June war frequently descends to vulgar propaganda. Deeming the Israeli combined air and naval assault on the U.S.S. Liberty, in which 34 U.S. Navy men were killed and 171 wounded, an "accident" and an "incident [of] faulty identifications," Oren rehashes official Israeli tales and embellishes on them with his own whoppers. He avers that Israeli reconnaissance pilots flying just overhead on a cloudless morning missed noticing the Liberty's five-by-eight-foot American flag fluttering in the wind because they "were not looking for the Liberty, but rather for Egyptian submarines"; that "the IDF could have easily sunk the Liberty," although with the IDF's extended air attack using missiles, cannon and napalm, followed by a torpedo attack followed by sustained fire on the crippled vessel that left 2/3 of the crew dead or wounded, the miracle is that the Liberty managed, just barely, to stay afloat; and that Israeli ships, after torpedoing the Liberty, "ceased firing the instant the mistake was realized and offered to assist the ship," although surviving members of the crew uniformly testify that the Israeli ships fired from close range after the torpedo explosion and after stopping near the fantail, where the Liberty's name and hull number appeared in large letters (a new oversized American flag had also been unfurled), finally firing on the life rafts in the water, and then left the area for more than an hour before returning to offer assistance (SDW: pp. 264, 271).

Funny that you bring me a review made by Finkelstein as he has a well based reputation of an Anti-Israeli.

Also you haven't yet referred to the Israeli pilot's testimony which I have brought forth...

IDFM203
05-06-2004, 03:05 PM
I just knew this thread would turn out like this :roll: , for when one is obviously on a crusade here, which its clear in your pursuit of this off topic discussion which YOU made, well it was enviable that it would get like this……….oh well :roll:


although surviving members of the crew uniformly testify that the Israeli ships fired from close range after the torpedo explosion and after stopping near the fantail, where the Liberty's name and hull number appeared in large letters (a new oversized American flag had also been unfurled), finally firing on the life rafts in the water, and then left the area for more than an hour before returning to offer assistance (SDW: pp. 264, 271).First of all NOWHERE there does Finkelstein dispute that the Israeli planes did NOT have the proper ammunition which further shows it was NOT a planned and deliberate attack.

Secondly that spy ship was full of smoke now and as such it’s clearly plausible that the torpedo boats did not see the hull number, and for the flag they claim they never saw it.

Now when they did recognize the ship, they stopped and that again further shows that it was no planned and once they knew it was an American ship they ceased firing.

Secondly as I brought down before about the NSA transcripts.


Also, contrary to claims that an Israeli pilot identified the ship as American on a radio tape, no one has ever produced this tape. In fact, the official Israeli Air Force tape clearly established that no such identification of the ship was made by the Israeli pilots prior to the attack. It also indicates that once the pilots became concerned about the identity of the ship, by virtue of reading its hull number, they terminated the attack. The tapes do not contain any statement suggesting the pilots saw a U.S. flag before the attack.5 Critics claimed the Israeli tape was doctored, but the National Security Agency of the United States released formerly top secret transcripts in July 2003 that confirmed the Israeli version

Or even just as recent as January of this year the NSA released more tapes that show it was an accident.

Here is an excerpt from that CNN article

In July the National Security Archive released tapes of Israeli pilots and ground control speaking in Hebrew, along with English transcripts. The recordings were made by a nearby American surveillance aircraft after the attack.

The NSA released the tapes and transcripts under the Freedom of Information Act in response to a request from Judge Jay Cristol of Miami, Florida. Cristol, who wrote a book about the attack, said the tapes show it was a tragic accident in a time of war -- that the Israelis mistook the ship for an Egyptian one.

"There was no indication they had any knowledge they were attacking a U.S. ship," Cristol told participants at the conference.

The State Department official said that though some maintain the Israeli military was too good to make such a mistake, "if they were that good and if they were that efficient and they deliberately sought to sink a ship, they damned well would have sunk it."

The official noted the Israelis attacked the ship first with cannon fire and then napalm, not specialized air-to-sea weapons.


(or to add yeah their that good that’s why we have friendly fire killings all the time)

Anyways for that article Click Here (http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/01/12/us.israel.ussliberty/index.html)

I mean you have NO single PROOF whatsoever that Israel knew and planned this attack and did so on purpose to sink that ship but yet you refuse to believe anything other then Israel maliciously attacked that ship on purpose.


You are correct. I have no proof. I was not in the War Room. If I had been in the War Room I would probably be subject to the same character assassination (or worse) that you provide for Mintz. :cantbeli: what character assassination?? :roll: Did you read what I brought,

Here I repeat………please point out where I did a character assassination on him

In 1991, columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak trumpeted their discovery of an American who said he had been in the Israeli war room when the decision was made to knowingly attack the American ship.4 In fact, that individual, Seth Mintz, wrote a letter to the Washington Post on November 9, 1991, in which he said he was misquoted by Evans and Novak and that the attack, was, in fact, a "case of mistaken identity." Moreover, the man who Mintz originally said had been with him, a Gen. Benni Matti, does not exist.


Secondly how hypocritical of you to cry about character assassination when YOU yourself bring down an author that does exactly what you wail about to Michael B. Oren :roll:

You don't have to repond if there are no fresh ideas on this point. In fact I wish you wouldn't as I'm sure there are other projects that the propaganda ministry needs help with.

catdatahh and here it is again :roll: …..the lame and tired retort of anything an Israeli says that doesn’t conform to your baseless theory as me working for the propaganda ministry as if only what you say is the unbridled truth :roll:

Yeah next time if you want to respond, leave your personal and tired smear tactics of me out of this for I have seen these lame tactics before and they just belly your propaganda style more so then any relevance of me working for any propaganda agency.

Like I said before, I don’t work for any government agency or whatnot nor do I simply parrot any official line, I have brought down various sources from a host of official and NON official sources to show how your claim is mere fantasy which has no basis in any reality.

Oh and as for fresh ideas, hmm its funny YOU should mention that for I unlike you had asked some questions which I see you have still NOT answered, while most of what you have brought down, I had in fact answered in that other thread. I suggest you at least make some effort in responding to my questions for once, for its not only Americans that believe that it was a malicious attack on purpose that have questions.


I repeat” Ok a few points (again) first is that it’s a fact that the Israeli planes did NOT have the proper ammunition to sink that ship, which shows further that it was not deliberate and planned for if it was, surly they would have been properly armed and it further backs up that those planes were diverted from other on going missions in that WAR to go there and that is not a sign of any planning or any knowledge beforehand.

Secondly, I would love to hear a reasonable theory that makes sense on why Israel would want to sink that ship at all? Or even more if so why do it after the first few critical days of the war?

Lastly this is one of my own questions, what was that liberty spy ship doing in the waters in a war zone which was in the midst of an all out war??

Shalom :D

Argyll
05-06-2004, 03:19 PM
Well off topic.............................locked!