Palestine | A capital question

[imohammed2]

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Palestine
A capital question

May 10th 2007 | JERUSALEM
From The Economist print edition
More Palestinians are losing their right to live in Jerusalem than ever before


ON May 15th, “Nakba [Catastrophe] Day”, Palestinians mourn the loss of most of their homeland to the newborn state of Israel. In a grim irony for them, this year's “Jerusalem Day”, the date in the lunar Jewish calendar when Israel celebrates its “reunification” of the city after capturing the West Bank in the 1967 war, falls the day after.

The 245,000 Palestinians from Jerusalem itself will feel the irony extra sharply. Last year 1,363 of them, many from generations-old Jerusalem families, lost their right to live in the city—up more than six-fold on the year before, and the highest annual total ever.

Demography has been the chief battle-ground for control of the holy city ever since Israel annexed the eastern, Arab part. It tried to consolidate its hold by building Jewish neighbourhoods (illegal settlements, in the eyes of international law) around the Arab ones. Systematic under-funding of municipal services in the east also drove many Palestinians to live in nearby Ramallah or Bethlehem, in the West Bank. Still, Jews today make up only 66% of the city's population, compared with 74% in 1967; a study published this week reported that the Arab growth rate is nearly twice that of the Jewish one.
Israel, meanwhile, has found various grounds to revoke the “permanent resident” status granted to most Arab Jerusalemites after the annexation. This bestows the right to work, get social benefits and vote in local elections, but not a passport or a vote in Israel's national elections—nor, apparently, permanence. In 1995 Israel began to strip the status from Palestinians who could not prove that their “centre of life” was in Jerusalem. It stopped four years later, after it emerged that the policy was making more of them move back.
Now they lose their status if they live abroad for more than seven years or get residency or citizenship in another country. In this respect, Israel treats them like other non-naturalised immigrants, “though it was Israel, in effect, that immigrated to them,” points out Yotam Ben-Hillel, a lawyer at HaMoked, a legal-advice centre. Last year's spike in revocations, the interior ministry wrote to B'Tselem, an Israeli human-rights group, was because of “an improvement in working procedures and control at the ministry, above all at border crossings”.
Even so, Arab Jerusalemites can get their residency back if they have visited Israel at least once every three years. The trouble is that they lose it automatically, sometimes without knowing, and then have to prove their right to it. Ahmed Jubran, who moved abroad in 1989 and has had American citizenship since 1997, says he has come back to visit his relatives at least once a year. Two years ago Israeli border officials began stamping his American passport instead of the laissez-passer that Israel issues to Arab Jerusalemites. They also warned him that he might not always get a visa. Only three months ago did he learn that he had lost his residency. “I'll do anything to get it back,” he says. “Hell, I'll even become Jewish if they want.”
Off you go

However, Jerusalemites who live elsewhere in the West Bank can lose their residency too. Since merely leaving the city entails no border-crossings and thus leaves no records, the authorities subject anyone they suspect of living outside it to a battery of checks, from producing municipal tax receipts and utility bills to enduring frequent home visits from inspectors who poke through sock drawers and kitchen cabinets.
Jerusalemites might have more say over their fate if most did not boycott municipal elections. They stay away partly out of protest, but partly, says Rami Nasrallah, head of the International Peace and Co-operation Centre in Jerusalem, because the fear of losing residency shapes all their contacts with the authorities. “They have become more individualistic,” he says. “It's a survival strategy.”



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interestingly enough there was another article posted recently about Jerusalem
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=111867

recently at UofT i was at an event held by a pro-israel student group who invited soldiers from the recent lebanon war to speak their minds about the arab-israeli conflict. Among themselves they had a heated debate about what to do with the increasing amount of arab-israelis........the above would have been good reading for that//

[MPNFL]

recently at UofT i was at an event held by a pro-israel student group who invited soldiers from the recent lebanon war to speak their minds about the arab-israeli conflict. Among themselves they had a heated debate about what to do with the increasing amount of arab-israelis........the above would have been good reading for that//

could you provide any video/articles showing or discussing that event?

[Danik]

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Palestine
A capital question

May 10th 2007 | JERUSALEM
From The Economist print edition
More Palestinians are losing their right to live in Jerusalem than ever before


ON May 15th, “Nakba [Catastrophe] Day”, Palestinians mourn the loss of most of their homeland(Tubish the land of Britain or Turkey, or are my maps outdated?) to the newborn state of Israel. In a grim irony for them, this year's “Jerusalem Day”, the date in the lunar Jewish calendar when Israel celebrates its “reunification”(Snob quotation marks as if the city was not reunified, what would they call two halves of a whole coming together?) of the city after capturing the West Bank(of Jordan) in the 1967 war, falls the day after.

The 245,000 Palestinians from Jerusalem itself will feel the irony extra sharply. Last year 1,363 of them(oh wow thats a whopping 0.556% decline in population, More Black people left Harlem in the last hour) many(how Many? Most of Jerusalem was Jewish decades before Israel was independant) from generations-old Jerusalem families, lost their right to live in the city—up more than six-fold on the year before( thats 230 people, this systematic ethnic cleansing genocide nazi warcrimes are too great to fatham), and the highest annual total ever(Ever? Are we counting from 1967 or 500AD?).

Demography has been the chief battle-ground for control of the holy city ever since Israel annexed the eastern, Arab part. It tried to consolidate its hold by building Jewish neighbourhoods (illegal settlements, in the eyes of international law) around the Arab ones. Systematic under-funding of municipal services in the east( you just said it was illegal so why would they build their infrastructure, the point is to drive them out, but obviously sh-t is so terrible that instead of leaving in groves they multiplied) also drove many Palestinians to live in nearby Ramallah or Bethlehem, in the West Bank. Still, Jews today make up only 66% of the city's population, compared with 74% in 1967; a study published this week reported that the Arab growth rate is nearly twice that of the Jewish one.(hmmm If Haredi and Orthodox which make up large amount of jlems residents have around 7 kids, then Arabs are having 14? In that case I gotta hand it to Arab women, and to the horrid conditions they are under to be able to feed and clothe that many children)
Israel, meanwhile, has found various grounds to revoke the “permanent resident” status granted to most Arab Jerusalemites after the annexation. This bestows the right to work, get social benefits and vote in local elections, but not a passport or a vote in Israel's national elections—nor, apparently, permanence. In 1995 Israel began to strip the status from Palestinians who could not prove that their “centre of life” was in Jerusalem. It stopped four years later, after it emerged that the policy was making more of them move back.
Now they lose their status if they live abroad for more than seven years or get residency or citizenship in another country. In this respect, Israel treats them like other non-naturalised immigrants, “though it was Israel, in effect, that immigrated to them,” points out Yotam Ben-Hillel, a lawyer at HaMoked, a legal-advice centre. Last year's spike in revocations, the interior ministry wrote to B'Tselem, an Israeli human-rights group, was because of “an improvement in working procedures and control at the ministry, above all at border crossings”.
Even so, Arab Jerusalemites can get their residency back if they have visited Israel at least once every three years. The trouble is that they lose it automatically, sometimes without knowing, and then have to prove their right to it. Ahmed Jubran, who moved abroad in 1989 and has had American citizenship since 1997, says he has come back to visit his relatives at least once a year. Two years ago Israeli border officials began stamping his American passport instead of the laissez-passer that Israel issues to Arab Jerusalemites. They also warned him that he might not always get a visa. Only three months ago did he learn that he had lost his residency. “I'll do anything to get it back,” he says. “Hell, I'll even become Jewish if they want.”
Off you go

However, Jerusalemites who live elsewhere in the West Bank can lose their residency too. Since merely leaving the city entails no border-crossings and thus leaves no records, the authorities subject anyone they suspect of living outside it to a battery of checks, from producing municipal tax receipts and utility bills to enduring frequent home visits from inspectors who poke through sock drawers and kitchen cabinets.
Jerusalemites might have more say over their fate if most did not boycott municipal elections. They stay away partly out of protest, but partly, says Rami Nasrallah, head of the International Peace and Co-operation Centre in Jerusalem, because the fear of losing residency shapes all their contacts with the authorities. “They have become more individualistic,” he says. “It's a survival strategy.”



_____________________________________________________________






interestingly enough there was another article posted recently about Jerusalem
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=111867

recently at UofT i was at an event held by a pro-israel student group who invited soldiers from the recent lebanon war to speak their minds about the arab-israeli conflict. Among themselves they had a heated debate about what to do with the increasing amount of arab-israelis........the above would have been good reading for that//


AWWWWW Its my sweet darling Economist. I recieve this absolute sh-t of a magazine in the mail for free. Note A. They spend at least one article every month sh-tting on Israel, shortly I will destroy that article in one fowl swoop using their own bullsh-t. I would also like to note that in the magazine right next to this article is one praising Sudan for trying to stop the Darfuf Genocide, riiiight....

Last month they pwned themselves by stating that Guliani was less liked than Clinton and Obama, and then drew a graph and stated that he was most likely to win the election, if their editors cant catch their incompetance why should I bother believing them.

Now onto this delight of an article about the evils of the zionist state.

Watch carefully

Abra

Kadabra

Jews today make up only 66% of the city's population, compared with 74% in 1967
So if Arabs are being driven from their homes in record numbers who is filling the blank? Jews make up a smaller percentage over time, am I to belive that Mormons are making their foothold in Jerusalem?

This ubber pwng is brought to you from my laptop after 3 hours of toil in the sun assembling a big-ass gas grill, digging holes to plant trees and getting sun burned. They spent hours in their airconditioned offices just to get shat all over by me. Now Im off, as I have more sh-t to complete by tuesday than the UN will complete all year, speaking of which they got pwned to today as well by Dyadya Churkin. Shalom Blyat.

[Ordie]

One of the largest landlords in Jerusalem is the Greek Orthodox Church.
Moreover it does not mention the population of international clergy or the Armenians living within the city.

When I visited Jerusalem in the early 1980's, there were plans to extend the the Jewish Quarter into the Armenian Quarter. In reaction to this proposal, the Christian Churches (Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, Syrian Orthodox, and Russian Orthodox) threatend to close all Holy Sites to pilgrims and tourists.

Teddy Kolleck, the Mayor at the time, figured a compromise that prevented both the expansion and Holy Site closures.

[Hollis]

Palestinian home land,

Arabic Answer, Ma fish Falestin.

[Cralis]

Wait.

Didn't arabs claim that Palestine was a fiction of Roman imagination up until about 1980? Yeah, here was something I read a while back.

http://www.israel.net/timetospeak/2.htm

Curious if anyone can back up this guy's claims. I'm curious if its true.

[Hollis]

Wait.

Didn't arabs claim that Palestine was a fiction of Roman imagination up until about 1980? Yeah, here was something I read a while back.

http://www.israel.net/timetospeak/2.htm

Curious if anyone can back up this guy's claims. I'm curious if its true.


Wow, Rome was long gone by then. After the bar Kokhba failed rebellion (135AB), Rome renamed Israel. Sadly they want it to be Philistinian, after Israel arch enemy, but misspelled it.

[Ordie]

One of the many titles of King Juan Carlos of Spain is that of the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

[Cralis]

Wow, Rome was long gone by then. After the bar Kokhba failed rebellion (135AB), Rome renamed Israel. Sadly they want it to be Philistinian, after Israel arch enemy, but misspelled it.

Yes, that would be the time of the Great Diaspora if I remember correctly. But it still makes me wonder if this guy is right.

If he's right, then Arab leaders and Arab ambassadors to the UN through the 60's, 70's, and up to the early 80's were claiming that "Palestine" was not a country, not a people, and not part of the arabic culture. In fact, he makes the claim that during the British Mandate the "palestinians" were in fact the Jewish population! (according to the British)

If thats true, then this would be one of the largest cover-ups and media malignments in the history of the world. An entire culture virtually appears overnight and claims successive rights to the land of the Jews as their "historical lands", and a great portion of the world supports them?

That would be akin to French Canadians claiming to have been ousted from the United States territories, claiming historical land rights, and being declared refugees by the UN.

The thing I hate about that web site is that he's horrible at making his sources available. I'm not good at researching history...I'm hoping someone who reads this thread is. It would certainly be educational.

[Moledet]

I don't know about the rest, but one thing is right. Anyone who lived in Palestine was given the title Palestinian by the British mandate including the Jews.
Though, when they were giving ID cards they did include race in it. So under race it was written Jew or Muslim Arab or Christian Arab.

[Hollis]

Cralis, I would contend the reasons to declare Palestine as a actual Arab country with history is mostly political. I feel the transition of the reemergence of Israel as a nation was greatly exacerbated by the Cold War Political environment. Also it was politically advantageous to "develop" a Islamic reasoning to attack Israel.

[valtrex]

One of the largest landlords in Jerusalem is the Greek Orthodox Church....
When I visited Jerusalem in the early 1980's, there were plans to extend the the Jewish Quarter into the Armenian Quarter. In reaction to this proposal, the Christian Churches (Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox and Russian Orthodox) threatend to close all Holy Sites to pilgrims and tourists.

Nothing serious, it's just that Greek & Russian Orthodox are the same Church, we follow the same faith & practices (together with Serbian-Orthodox, Romanian-Orthodox, Bulgarian-Orthodox, Georgian-Orthodox etc) and we are members of one and the same Church, the Orthodox Church. The differences are just cultural & linguistical.
Armenian Orthodox are a different Church, they are anti-Chalcedonians & belong to the family of Oriental Churches

...Syrian Orthodox...
I guess you mean Syriac Orthodox (http://sor.cua.edu/Intro/index.html), an anti-Chalcedonian ancient Oriental Orthodox Church.

[Ordie]

Most Christian Arabs belong with the Greek Orthodox church. However, many send thier children to Roman Catholic schools in the Levant including Bethlehem University. There's even a popular Quaker school in the Holy Land.

What I noticed in the Holy Land, all Christians are considered as one faith regardless of denomination. Although many of the old Church regard the Evangelicals with suspicion fanning the flames of conflict to speed up the Rapture.

The main concern is the decreasing Arab Christian population in Jerusalem. Low population rate, limited opportunities, and dis-enfrachisement in the political process is forcing many to emigrate overseas. Of particular issue is marriage and finding a suitable mate of similar background. I believe Lebanese Christians have similar issues as well. Many of the suitable bachelors and potential brides are overseas.

For the Jordanian and Syrian Christians, this has been mitigated with the influx of Iraqi Christians fleeing from the civil war in Iraq. For interfaith marriage (Muslim & Christian) many go to Cyprus or Europe to get hitched.

[Ordie]

What is the average Israeli household size within the Jerusalem area? I'm sure this may be a factor for the declining Jewish population. I also assume the job generators within Jerusalem are government agencies, tourism, and universities. But I don't know if younger Israelis are drawn away from Jerusalem for high tech jobs in Tel Aviv or Haifa.

Given the close proximity of Tel Aviv, I assume there are many commuters from Jerusalem and traffic congestion and cost may be another factor for people to move closer to work.

[IraGlacialis]

What I noticed in the Holy Land, all Christians are considered as one faith regardless of denomination. Although many of the old Church regard the Evangelicals with suspicion fanning the flames of conflict to speed up the Rapture.
Look up Christian Zionists and you will see that many of of those suspicions are not unfounded.
Many of those guys want to demolish the Dome of the Rock to rebuild the Jewish Temple and disagree with any peace accord under the pretense that it would stall the Second Coming.

[Moledet]

What is the average Israeli household size within the Jerusalem area? I'm sure this may be a factor for the declining Jewish population. I also assume the job generators within Jerusalem are government agencies, tourism, and universities. But I don't know if younger Israelis are drawn away from Jerusalem for high tech jobs in Tel Aviv or Haifa.

Given the close proximity of Tel Aviv, I assume there are many commuters from Jerusalem and traffic congestion and cost may be another factor for people to move closer to work.
Indeed there are less hi-tech jobs in Jerusalem (mostly Intel and Teva are based there) but the main reason young people prefer Tel Aviv is the night life and the beach. Jerusalem is just boring most of the time.

Jerusalem-Tel Aviv road is very busy in the morning and the train is a joke, always late and many times feels like traveling in India (especially on Sunday mornings when all the soldiers head back to their bases). Jerusalem doesn't have much to offer for the secular young people.

[Ericsson]

Tel Aviv is a great place
israeli woman are very promiscuous
a little stern

[Moledet]

Tel Aviv is a great place
israeli woman are very promiscuous
a little stern
Yeah well they need to be a little stern when everyone is hitting on them everywhere. The whole dating thing is sometimes very tough here for both sides.

[imohammed2]

could you provide any video/articles showing or discussing that event?

unfortunately, i can't even recall the name of the student group that hosted the event.....i know they took a few pictures at the end....there were no video recordings, overall it was a very low-key event

it was really interesting though....the 3 soldiers were a pilot, a combat engineer and a counsellor........and they had a senior dude telling them whether or not to answer certain iffy questions

[kamaz]

unfortunately, i can't even recall the name of the student group that hosted the event.....i know they took a few pictures at the end....there were no video recordings, overall it was a very low-key event

it was really interesting though....the 3 soldiers were a pilot, a combat engineer and a counsellor........and they had a senior dude telling them whether or not to answer certain iffy questions

probably the local school Hillel chapter. The Hillel group at my Rutgers campus invited an Israeli Bedouin soldier to speak to the students, he was a border trakker. When he said that he loves his country and is proud of his army service, the muslim students in the audince started booing him and shouting him down and calling him a 'kelb' or something. very ugly scene.

[Ordie]

probably the local school Hillel chapter. The Hillel group at my Rutgers campus invited an Israeli Bedouin soldier to speak to the students, he was a border trakker. When he said that he loves his country and is proud of his army service, the muslim students in the audince started booing him and shouting him down and calling him a 'kelb' or something. very ugly scene.

While I was attending university, it was usually the Palestinian and Israeli students that got along very well sometimes inviting each other to parties and dinners. In fact, the university pub owner, a native of Jenin, catered an Israeli Consulate reception on campus.

The people that did not get along were the Americans taking sides on the Palestine/Israel issue to the point of racism.

[JJC]

^There is a lot of tension on American Universities when it comes to Israel-Arab conflict. On one side you have the Muslim/Arab student movements aligned with Lefty groups calling Israel an Aprthied, and on the other side you have pro-Israel American Jewish students now slowly joining with various chritsian groups.

I know an Israeli who is in Columbia University and with other Israeli students they were intimidated by one particular professor in the Middle East department there.

[kamaz]

I know an Israeli who is in Columbia University and with other Israeli students they were intimidated by one particular professor in the Middle East department there.


dude its no joke. i had a palestinian professor teaching Mid East history in my 3rd year. Nice guy, very smart and friendly, but when it came to facts, he was biased as hell. He routinely made comments in class saying that Israelis slaughtered Palestinians in '48 the same way nazis slaughtered the jews, and similar. I told him to be more objective and he went off on me about how I have the grasp of history all wrong and stuff.

Absolutely no concept of impartial analysis or teaching. The muslim students on campus were very hostile to anything israel, there were a few, most notably a shy muslim girl with whom i talked to, who were willing to discuss and talk like normal people, but most just made threatening gestures, cursed and threw things, like wild animals.

the american campuses will be a new war zone.