Gulf War ex-POW: Abuse claims horrifying

[HELEX]

Gulf War ex-POW: Abuse claims horrifying
Monday, May 3, 2004 Posted: 1406 GMT (2206 HKT)

LONDON, England (CNN) -- As controversy swirls about images allegedly showing U.S. and British soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners, CNN anchor Monita Rajpal spoke to John Nichol, an Royal Air Force navigator who was shot down, taken prisoner and tortured during the 1991 Gulf War.

RAJPAL: What goes through your mind when you see these photographs?

NICHOL: Two reactions: obviously we're still questioning whether the British photos are real or not, but it doesn't really matter because the damage has already been done. But specifically with the American photographs coming out of Abu Ghraib, a prison that I spent some time in during the first Gulf War in 1991 -- a brutal place, a horrific place.

I feel saddened that British or American forces would commit such acts on prisoners -- regardless of what those prisoners have done. I heard someone saying on a news channel coming out of the United States that those are the sorts of things that the Iraqis would do to us so it doesn't matter.

But that's no justification. We went to Iraq to say our standards are better ... we are coming to bring democracy ... we are coming to stop this abuse. This is the kind of abuse I suffered in Abu Ghraib and it's shocking and horrifying to think that American and British forces could do the same to Iraqi prisoners 13 years after the event.

You were tortured in Iraq. Is there a sense that this is the way things are done in a prison?

No, this is absolutely not the way things are done in a prison. It's the way things were done in the past in Abu Ghraib and it's the way things should not be done by the Americans and British.

So what does this do to the hearts and mind then?

The hearts and mind battle in Iraq is being lost. Thirteen months ago the U.S. military with Britain at its side liberated Iraq from repression. But we seem to be losing the peace.

Tragic numbers of American soldiers (were) killed in the last month. It's a tragedy that 13 months into the peace we're seeing so many losses. For America and families watching the news it must be a truly tragic, upsetting time for them.

Human rights groups are saying this is just the tip of the iceberg. They've been making allegations since last summer of abuse at the hands of American and British soldiers. But when we're talking about interrogation, some American soldiers are saying this is a tactic that was approved by certain governmental agencies, the CIA the FBI. It's an interrogation tactic -- what do you say about it?

If it is approved, it's illegal and it's a war crime. It is what happened to us in 1991 and it is completely and utterly unacceptable for any modern military to interrogate people in that way. The military can interrogate people, but interrogation means questioning, not torture. Brutality, which is the sort of thing seen in those photographs, is completely unacceptable.

Even if you say some sort of oppression is acceptable, what is going on in those photos shown on the (CBS) 60 Minutes program is not oppression, it is humiliation. That was someone enjoying the cruelty of demeaning prisoners -- that's not about interrogation, even if you say some sort of brutality is acceptable, which of course it's not.

Putting aside the rights and wrongs of this, paint for me a picture of what it's like to be a prisoner at the hands of such abuse?

What is difficult for people to understand about being a prisoner of such a brutal regime is that you have no control. You have control taken out of your hands.

I was beaten, burned and abused. All of this things cause physical pain to the body -- there's no doubt about that. But the greatest thing is fear: fear of the unknown; fear of footsteps coming down a corridor; fear of listening to other people scream; fear of not knowing whether it's going to happen to you next.

That's the reality of existing in amongst that violent, hateful regime. It is the fear of not knowing whether you're going to be alive in a minute, in a day or in a week.



http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/03/iraq.nichol/index.html

[Fotch]

Maybe a German shouldn't be posting on POW war crimes....hmmm....just a thought....

Sh*t happens in war...an investigation will happen and those involved will be punished. Besides...no one has mentioned what these people were in the prison for...hell...if they were in for shooting at troops or insurgent activity...too damn bad. For the most part the coalition soldiers are very well disciplined (thus the lack or retaliation from the average soldier as one or two of their numbers is dying per day). A few bad seeds (we still do not know if this was ordered by military intel or the CIA) does not make for an army of torturers and abusers.

[HELEX]

Maybe a German shouldn't be posting on POW war crimes....hmmm....just a thought....

Sh*t happens in war...an investigation will happen and those involved will be punished. Besides...no one has mentioned what these people were in the prison for...hell...if they were in for shooting at troops or insurgent activity...too damn bad. For the most part the coalition soldiers are very well disciplined (thus the lack or retaliation from the average soldier as one or two of their numbers is dying per day). A few bad seeds (we still do not know if this was ordered by military intel or the CIA) does not make for an army of torturers and abusers.

And why should a "German" not? I did nothing and say what I want...

[Fotch]

Maybe a German shouldn't be posting on POW war crimes....hmmm....just a thought....

Sh*t happens in war...an investigation will happen and those involved will be punished. Besides...no one has mentioned what these people were in the prison for...hell...if they were in for shooting at troops or insurgent activity...too damn bad. For the most part the coalition soldiers are very well disciplined (thus the lack or retaliation from the average soldier as one or two of their numbers is dying per day). A few bad seeds (we still do not know if this was ordered by military intel or the CIA) does not make for an army of torturers and abusers.

And why should a "German" not? I did nothing and say what I want...

Because the hypocrisy of any statement made on the subject is disgusting....but we've all forgiven that little hiccup in German national history...feel free to post whatever you wish...but do try to remeber the irony of any statement made....

Thanks...I appreciate it... ;)

[weedman]

Fotch, nice try to show your capabilities :lol: :lol:

[Tane Angle]

I'd say we should all be a bit horrified by such things. The British ones do seem to have been faked, but like the article says, that doesn't matter much in terms of PR with the Iraqi/Arab people.

What really gets me is that it was torture, not coercion. Torture doesn't work in terms of intelligence gathering.

Have a good one all, and just some thoughts...

[Trident-za]

For the record, I agree 100% with John Nichol.

And Fotch... I can't grasp the logic here: a German shouldn't talk of POW abuse because of what happened 70 years ago, before he was born? Whats the cut off period? Is there a nation anywhere that doesn't have some horrific skeletons in the closet somewhere in their history?

[Tane Angle]

Good point. I hate to say it, but my own beloved country, has some blood on it's hands as well. Maybe that's why it matters so much that we fight genocide and such today, no? To make up for our country's mistakes of yesteryear. However, Trident-za makes a good point; the Germans of today had nothing to do with the Holocaust. Just as the Americans today had nothing to do with slavery or slaughtering the Native Americans.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[henksmoeder]

yup Fotch, WWII is over :bash: Germans are normal people now :hug:

[FinnishMF]

Maybe a German shouldn't be posting on POW war crimes....hmmm....just a thought....
rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

All they are just nazis :lol:

[SeanAshi]

I did nothing and say what I want...Yes you can Helex, you wouldn't have that right if it weren't for the United States.

[HELEX]

I did nothing and say what I want...Yes you can Helex, you wouldn't have that right if it weren't for the United States.

Right or not, I would do it anyway.

[5jumpchump]

Gulf War ex-POW: Abuse claims horrifying
Monday, May 3, 2004 Posted: 1406 GMT (2206 HKT)

LONDON, England (CNN) -- As controversy swirls about images allegedly showing U.S. and British soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners, CNN anchor Monita Rajpal spoke to John Nichol, an Royal Air Force navigator who was shot down, taken prisoner and tortured during the 1991 Gulf War.

RAJPAL: What goes through your mind when you see these photographs?

NICHOL: Two reactions: obviously we're still questioning whether the British photos are real or not, but it doesn't really matter because the damage has already been done. But specifically with the American photographs coming out of Abu Ghraib, a prison that I spent some time in during the first Gulf War in 1991 -- a brutal place, a horrific place.

I feel saddened that British or American forces would commit such acts on prisoners -- regardless of what those prisoners have done. I heard someone saying on a news channel coming out of the United States that those are the sorts of things that the Iraqis would do to us so it doesn't matter.

But that's no justification. We went to Iraq to say our standards are better ... we are coming to bring democracy ... we are coming to stop this abuse. This is the kind of abuse I suffered in Abu Ghraib and it's shocking and horrifying to think that American and British forces could do the same to Iraqi prisoners 13 years after the event.

You were tortured in Iraq. Is there a sense that this is the way things are done in a prison?

No, this is absolutely not the way things are done in a prison. It's the way things were done in the past in Abu Ghraib and it's the way things should not be done by the Americans and British.

So what does this do to the hearts and mind then?

The hearts and mind battle in Iraq is being lost. Thirteen months ago the U.S. military with Britain at its side liberated Iraq from repression. But we seem to be losing the peace.

Tragic numbers of American soldiers (were) killed in the last month. It's a tragedy that 13 months into the peace we're seeing so many losses. For America and families watching the news it must be a truly tragic, upsetting time for them.

Human rights groups are saying this is just the tip of the iceberg. They've been making allegations since last summer of abuse at the hands of American and British soldiers. But when we're talking about interrogation, some American soldiers are saying this is a tactic that was approved by certain governmental agencies, the CIA the FBI. It's an interrogation tactic -- what do you say about it?

If it is approved, it's illegal and it's a war crime. It is what happened to us in 1991 and it is completely and utterly unacceptable for any modern military to interrogate people in that way. The military can interrogate people, but interrogation means questioning, not torture. Brutality, which is the sort of thing seen in those photographs, is completely unacceptable.

Even if you say some sort of oppression is acceptable, what is going on in those photos shown on the (CBS) 60 Minutes program is not oppression, it is humiliation. That was someone enjoying the cruelty of demeaning prisoners -- that's not about interrogation, even if you say some sort of brutality is acceptable, which of course it's not.

Putting aside the rights and wrongs of this, paint for me a picture of what it's like to be a prisoner at the hands of such abuse?

What is difficult for people to understand about being a prisoner of such a brutal regime is that you have no control. You have control taken out of your hands.

I was beaten, burned and abused. All of this things cause physical pain to the body -- there's no doubt about that. But the greatest thing is fear: fear of the unknown; fear of footsteps coming down a corridor; fear of listening to other people scream; fear of not knowing whether it's going to happen to you next.

That's the reality of existing in amongst that violent, hateful regime. It is the fear of not knowing whether you're going to be alive in a minute, in a day or in a week.



http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/03/iraq.nichol/index.html

Your going to squeeze this for all it's worth huh ? :roll:

[budanski]

So who'll be the first in line to counter any statements directed at the U.S. on slavery and treatment of native americans?

[Argyll]

So who'll be the first in line to counter any statements directed at the U.S. on slavery and treatment of native americans?


Kunta Kinte?

[Fargin]

I did nothing and say what I want...Yes you can Helex, you wouldn't have that right if it weren't for the United States.

Here we go again.

We wouldn't have this prolonged discussion, if everyone simply said: Yes, abusing pows shouldn't be tollerated.

[HELEX]

I did nothing and say what I want...Yes you can Helex, you wouldn't have that right if it weren't for the United States.

Here we go again.

We wouldn't have this prolonged discussion, if everyone simply said: Yes, abusing pows shouldn't be tollerated.

Yes, but the opinion of some people here goes in the direction that abuse by Americans should be tolerated.... :roll:

[budanski]

So who'll be the first in line to counter any statements directed at the U.S. on slavery and treatment of native americans?


Kunta Kinte?

Its Toby... ;)

[Jack Mehoff]

I did nothing and say what I want...Yes you can Helex, you wouldn't have that right if it weren't for the United States.

Here we go again.

We wouldn't have this prolonged discussion, if everyone simply said: Yes, abusing pows shouldn't be tollerated.

Yes, but the opinion of some people here goes in the direction that abuse by Americans should be tolerated.... :roll:
I remember you said that it's OK to mutilated American civilian contractor corpses because they are dead anyway.

How about get off your high horse before I throw you down?

[HELEX]

I did nothing and say what I want...Yes you can Helex, you wouldn't have that right if it weren't for the United States.

Here we go again.

We wouldn't have this prolonged discussion, if everyone simply said: Yes, abusing pows shouldn't be tollerated.

Yes, but the opinion of some people here goes in the direction that abuse by Americans should be tolerated.... :roll:
I remember you said that it's OK to mutilated American civilian contractor corpses because they are dead anyway.

How about get off your high horse before I throw you down?

Jack, once again: Dead People are dead, they dont feel anything. It is disgusting what happened but they were dead.

Living are alive and can feel fear, pain and remember their treatment.

[Jack Mehoff]

So, you are telling me to kill the POWs first, then torture them? I mean, they are dead right? :roll:

Dip****

[He219]

Yes, but the opinion of some people here goes in the direction that abuse by Americans should be tolerated.... :roll:

HELIX. Americans do not tolerate such behavior. There will always bad apples in the basket, even in America.

;)

[Argyll]

I did nothing and say what I want...Yes you can Helex, you wouldn't have that right if it weren't for the United States.

Here we go again.

We wouldn't have this prolonged discussion, if everyone simply said: Yes, abusing pows shouldn't be tollerated.

Yes, but the opinion of some people here goes in the direction that abuse by Americans should be tolerated.... :roll:
I remember you said that it's OK to mutilated American civilian contractor corpses because they are dead anyway.

How about get off your high horse before I throw you down?

Jack, once again: Dead People are dead, they dont feel anything. It is disgusting what happened but they were dead.

Living are alive and can feel fear, pain and remember their treatment.

and these guys from Blackwater do you think they were all killed instantly when their vehicle got hit?
There are reports that at least one was alive possibly 2 proir to the burnings and mutilations........Mutilation whetere dead or alive is the acts of sick fox and they deserve no pity when payback comes,and when Hell arrived in fallujah they got their just rewards!

[ibstolidude]

Argyll - inspite of the actual facts that surround the events - HELX just knows things. Granted most of what he knows is assumption and half truth.
The observation you post has been made in the past. Sorry man you'd do better to just stare at a blank wall - although it too is dense and with out cognative capability atleast, it doesn't point at the windows and try and convince you they are actually made of carpet instead of glass.

[Tane Angle]

Just to add to what my two compadres here have said, they weren't dead, that's what makes it so horrible. Not to mention the tactics used.