South African snipers

[baboon6]

There is very little information out there, whether historical or current. I know some R1s (FN FALs) were used in a "designated marksman" kind of role in the 80s, and that even today there are some scoped R1s being used (someone posted a pic of one in the SANDF thread). Were any other kind of sniper weapons used? Was there a formal sniper training course? I assume at least Special Forces must have had a sniper capability.

[Lieutenant Frank Drebin]

I saw some pics of the counter-terrorist team from the police of your country posing for the camera with Accuracy International AW .308 rifles. Maybe the military SF use also this model or one of the many manufactured by Truvelo.

[Ironsight06]

Remington 700's are/were used as well.

[lancemaria]

hmm. maybe they have use other weapon on it! :roll:

[Lieutenant Frank Drebin]

Well, in the past Recce units used Steyr SSG-69 rifles too.

[baboon6]

Well, in the past Recce units used Steyr SSG-69 rifles too.

Thanks, great pic.

[Masai]

I assume at least Special Forces must have had a sniper capability.
they just used knives for sniping.... :)

i have heard from a number of people that some of them used normal hunting rifles, the 308 was popular for obvious reasons. but i agree, there must have been some sniper training with a military approved weapon.

maybe try and contact some of the 32 battalion guys on the net ?

[Echo7]

Current issue is AI AW 7.62mm, I found out from an active operator 2 years ago, the proposed sniper badge indicates this weapon.
Steyr SSG 69 is also in inventory but not used as much as the AI.

[Masai]

you mean this (http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn06-e.htm) one ?

[Echo7]

yes that one.

[Masai]

i have heard from a source that during the bush war, the sandf sniper/DDM training was done by a section of the police force.

can anyone confirm this ?

[exT70]

i have heard from a source that during the bush war, the sandf sniper/DDM training was done by a section of the police force.

can anyone confirm this ?

SAPS used same scoped R1 in their Veldspan and Takies. Don't know if that is still the case. Did not deal with the above SAPS sections in built-up areas, but in areas we worked they used it more in a designated marksman type role (even though they insisted to at all times and under all circumstances wear their gilliesuits - might accordingly have been new toy at the time).
SADF reportedly had so-called sniper courses, but I never saw such a course listed on the yearly planner, so who knows.
SANDF over the last number of years listed scoped R1 as marksman/sniper weapon, which was used on the Muskertry Coaching Course at Inf School. It was withdrawn from isseu (not service) with the FT5 last year. Don't know why.
The ordinary Inf Bn does not provide for snipers, sharpshooters or any generic type role. Musketry until not too long ago was a bit of a headache in the SANDF. In SADF years most recruits could shoot (and quite a few very very well) before they joined the army, so actual marksmanship training was a neglected. You just either qualified as rifleman (musketry wise passed basics), alternatively qualified for the ordinary "expert badge"/"skietbalkie", or qualified for a silver badge, or quite scarce, the gold marksman's badge.
Accordingly the SANDF had to, after integration, specifically concentrate to establish the Musketry Coaching in the army. We still don't have "designated marksman" in our table of orginisation though.

[Maktab]

I pulled this picture off the SF League's website (http://www.recce.co.za/). Does anybody know when this was taken and what rifles they're using?

[exT70]

No idea of era (not ancient, post 83 patern headgear) or where, but that flora on the head is terrible - will get even recruits on basic training running - sorry, "corrective training", sorry actually these days "out of phase training". Hope that is not seriously what the recces are up to these days. So might be someone else, even though section on the right is wearing his operator type shoes.

[Masai]

I pulled this picture off the SF League's website (http://www.recce.co.za/). Does anybody know when this was taken and what rifles they're using?

i have no idea regarding the weapons, i carnt see shyt.

[eskrima]

there is a SA company named Truvelo armoury making sniper rilfes but i don't know iF SADF have their rifles:



http://www.truvelo.co.za/armoury/a_pro.html

[Andromeda]

Dont they also use the NTW-20 as their anti-material rifle? I think ive seen a pic around google that shows an SADF soldier firing one but I cant seem to find it at the moment.

[Masai]

afaik the NTW-20 was developed as primarily an anti-material rifle. suppose you could also snipe with it.

[playtym]

From the SAPS website.

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1993/dsc082831887f3fno0.jpg

http://www.saps.gov.za/photo_album/ops_responce.htm

[Masai]

why there is a bloody m16 in the background ?!?!?!??!

[R/cst]

Here is a picture of a SAPS Special Task Force Member with his sniper rifle, I am unsure as to the make.]
29277

[kpt. Zbik]

Is that an RG-31 in the back?

[wilhelm]

It looks to be a fairly large calibre weapon..

[exT70]

Here is a picture of a SAPS Special Task Force Member with his sniper rifle, I am unsure as to the make.]
29277

Looks like anti-matter type sniper rifle. Probably 12,7. Would n't want to fire it in 20mm without recoil system.
Or the rest I'm unsure. Why would an SAPS member be wearing a mil pat battlejacket and belted ammo around his neck? Battlejacket he might have borrowed, but I have never seen or heard of SAPS using Mags or any other belted ammo (lately). Min of Police would have a coronary, as would parliament if SAPS starts running around with belted auto weapons. Maybe taken during some SAPS/SANDF spes forces co-operation bit. Or more likely maybe just some gung-ho constable on bush phase of training posing for pic.

The vehicle in the back however I find interesting. Not standard RG anything. Looks like a corner of a loadbox sticking out on the right behind him, making it a double-cab typ vehicle with a loadbox, which usually would mean a weapons carrier of some type, normally anti-tk or mortar. Makes even less sense SAPS wise. And also strange. SAPS as far as I know does not use SANDF cammo pattern (veh).

[BillySing]

Here is a picture of a SAPS Special Task Force Member with his sniper rifle, I am unsure as to the make.]
29277

I pretty sure that there is a Mcmillan M87 .50 BMG rifle, albeit without it's characteristic "pepper-pot" muzzle brake. Just looking at the contour of the stock, as I own one myself.

I know a fella who was a Recce (3 tours) with the Airborne in Seth Efrica, and I've heard some amazing stories.

[R/cst]

Hi exT70 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=25397)

This picture was taken on the SAPS Special Task Force Rural training phase.

Just for your information friends of mine have been through the training and they are trained on a large variety of weapons including belt fed machine guns.

Here is a picture of the vehicle
29368

It seems to have the same pattern as this task force vechile
[29369

At this level there is a degree of cross training between the SAPS and SANDF

[exT70]

Hi exT70 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=25397)


This picture was taken on the SAPS Special Task Force Rural training phase.

Just for your information friends of mine have been through the training and they are trained on a large variety of weapons including belt fed machine guns.

Here is a picture of the vehicle
29368

It seems to have the same pattern as this task force vechile
[29369

At this level there is a degree of cross training between the SAPS and SANDF

Thanks

So the SAPS seems to be keen on rekindling their Koevoet roots. Interesting. Especially in light of the publicly stated directive that the SAPS should de-militarise.

Does anybody have any other info (and off course pics) of the weapons carrier in the first pic??

[playtym]

Maybe we could convince R/cst to post ALL of the pics he seems to be hoarding?


I'm trying to get my hands on a picture of a Tapir with the same camo scheme and mount on the back from a mate of mine. I saw it on his PC ages ago, which subsequently crashed. He thinks he may have it saved on an external HDD though. If I can just motivate him to look for it. :|

[R/cst]

Duplicate post

[R/cst]

So the SAPS seems to be keen on rekindling their Koevoet roots. Interesting. Especially in light of the publicly stated directive that the SAPS should de-militarise.

First off Koevoet was not officially part of the SAP it was branch of the South West African Police, Here is a exert from Peter stiffs Book
http://www.galago.co.za/CAT1_010_b.htm (http://www.galago.co.za/CAT1_010_b.htm)


The Covert War
Koevoet Operations in Namibia 1979-1989
The Covert War is compelling reading. In 1978 the counter-insurgency war on the Angolan/SWA Namibian border was going badly for the South Africans. Externally the SADF was in control, but internally SWAPO was gaining the upper hand. The SAP Commissioner and SADF Chief met to find a solution. They decided to form a joint 5-Recce Commando/Security Branch organisation on the lines of the Rhodesian Selous Scouts. A highly experienced Security Branch officer, Col ‘Sterk’ [strong] Hans’ Dreyer, was despatched to Owamboland with five police officers. They were tasked under‘Top Secret’ Project Koevoet (crowbar) to find and provide operational intelligence for the Recces. But they needed the Recces to provide captures for interrogation, but they were heavily engaged in operations in Angola.

Col Dreyer came to realise that the situation in SWA/Namibia was completely different to the Rhodesian scene. What worked in Rhodesia wouldn’t necessarily work there. So his team reverted to basic police work, building informer networks and so on. A single arrest led to the smashing of SWAPO’s sabotage networks throughout the country. During one investigation three policemen, armed only with pistols, almost blundered into a large PLAN group which would have spelt their certain death. This narrow escape resulted in the recruitment of black special constables into units to protect the investigators. This led to a realisation of the astonishing tracking abilities of the Owambos. While tracking has been a tactic used by the military since time eternal, it had never become a strategy where it was always used — which is what happened with Koevoet. It led to the unit’s major expansion.


I suggest you read it as it is very interesting, there is another book written by Jim Hooper


Koevoet! by Jim Hooper
· Koevoet! is an intense and unique account of the little-understood Southern African bush war, written by American Jim Hooper. He is the first journalist ever to have been granted unrestricted access to the controversial and predominantly black South West African Police Counterinsurgency Unit-the notorious Koevoet


While members of the SAP and SAP special task team did transfer to Koevoet and were reintegrated back into the SAP once it was disbanded, there were no roots

The Special Task Force owes its origin to the Fox Street seige, which occurred on 28 April 1974. As a result of this incident, it was decided to establish a unit that would specialize in the handling of hostage and similar situations.

It was envisaged that the unit would be an elite force consisting of some 200 officers and non-commissioned officers. Due to the South African Police Service's commitments in the former Rhodesia, it was, however, not possible to establish the unit until 1 February 1976

With regard to the use of Military weapons by the task force it is necessitated by their mandate and the fact that the world can be a dangerous place.

"The Special Task Force of the South African Police Service provides a specialized and impartial service to the community, by handling high risk operations that fall beyond the scope of classic policing in a professional and responsible manner.

http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/South_Africa/Special_Task_Force/Default2.htm (http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/South_Africa/Special_Task_Force/Default2.htm)

Here is a interesting documenting Operation Rachel in Mozambique

http://www.saferafrica.co.za/DocumentsCentre/Monographs/Rachel/Rachel.pdf (http://www.saferafrica.co.za/DocumentsCentre/Monographs/Rachel/Rachel.pdf).


playtym
Maybe we could convince R/cst to post ALL of the pics he seems to be hoarding?


I post all the pics that I can, however some I will not post due to the operational sensitivity and the fact that it would be a betrayal of the trust placed in me by a good friend

[kpt. Zbik]

Here is a picture of the vehicle
29368



In my opinion this is RG31 cargo version. Maybe older version of this:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=23319&d=1172713114

[R/cst]

Here is another picture of a sniper rifle

NTW-20
35715

[Deftoner]

Heres a pic I've posted here before, but belongs in this thread. Are those fluffy things in the background sniper bullet detectors?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/deftonesmark/AAD2006/mini-AAD0662.jpg

[LRPV]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=29277&d=1182334020

This looks like a Jongmans, made in Australia in the 1980s. The muzzle design is a dead-ringer.

[ingletonr]

It also appears as if the operator is missing his right thumb! :p


And that is indeed police camo. not soldier2000 that the SANDF use.

[ThirdWorldThinkTank]

Are those fluffy things in the background sniper bullet detectors?



You are spot on with that. Here is a picture of one in service;http://www.gizmag.com/pictures/4497_28080592113.jpg

More mics, more accurate.