Dragon Skin (armor) on Dateline NBC this Sunday (5/13)

[gonzaleznj]

Was watching a piece this morning on 'NBC Today' talking about how Dragon Skin Armor although banned by the Army, was still being used by some General Staff PSD and even the CIA.

They're going to be doing side by side tests with the Interceptor.
it airs this Sunday at 7pm.

story on MSNBC posted yesterday:
(has some video clips)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18720550/



bonus Mail Call clip. (Dragon Skin)
Gunny's oohrah is priceless***
http://www.youtube.com/v/gNY1MtsVwG8
(if its good for the Gunny, then its good for the Corps)

[JDZ]

Again BS. That those vests perform now doesn't say they stopped anything in 06. If Pinnacle stated their vests failed, they had to replace everything that was sold back then. So their pretty lame sabotage story is not convincing.
The safety message was also meant to all not issued vest, because some dudes bought level III vests for increased comfort. (e.g.SOV2000). It was also to prevent that deployed personal spent a lot of money for stuff that didn’t offer any supiority.
And nobody mentions that SOV3000 increases weight significantly.
A 10x12 Panel is 2lb heavier than one ESAPI plate. So not really perfect choice...

[soraflair]

I've seen some other videos on this. Hold on let me see if I can get some.

[James]

Having handled both types, I can say that the Pinnacle is a lot bulkier and heavier than more traditional vests. It also costs three or four times as much. One reason they weren't (aren't) allowed is because during tests, rounds that hit from certain angles would come in between the little discs. Maybe that's been improved...

Given a choice, I'll take my kevlar + SAPI.

[JDZ]

You also have to look for the additional coverage. It is really small and mostly in areas where only an angled shot would hit vital areas. And even bad old IBA weights 7-8lb less. Thus that they are claiming their system is lightweight. Making this hype is real ***** I wonder why nobody talks about that...

http://aycu28.webshots.com/image/16427/2001887182488596505_rs.jpg

[James]

IF the question is purely "Does Dragonskin offer better protection than traditional body armor?" then the answer is yes... If Pinnacle really could get the armor to fit the profile of concealable body armor like cops wear, weigh less than current issue, I would be the first one to use it, but the stuff I saw isn't there yet.

[angry cow]

The point is that the technology has the POTENTIAL to increase coverage, mobility, and survivability if it is properly funded and developed. But the Army was extremely quick to dismiss it before the tests even occurred. With a year of development there will undoubtedly be an enormous improvement. With proper funding and another year, who knows?

The point isn't whether its the best system out there, its that the Army dismissed offhand a development that could really help our fighting men and women. Additionally, many generals and their PSD's wear Dragon Skin, and the CIA bought it for their Iraq mission guys as well. This makes it appear to the average joe that its not being issued because of purely budgetary and political reasons. The Army should be having body armor competitions ANNUALLY in order to encourage development and seriously evaluate alternatives that outperform current systems. But it never will, because it could draw money away from its own development programs.

Remember the DARPA challenge? And how nobody even finished the first year? The next year almost everybody completed the course. Encouraging private development is the best way to use American innovation to find better solutions to current problems. Or maybe we should just sit back with our current systems until they aren't good enough? The US Army needs to learn to fight the next war, instead of the previous war.

[JDZ]

The point is that the technology has the POTENTIAL to increase coverage, mobility, and survivability if it is properly funded and developed. But the Army was extremely quick to dismiss it before the tests even occurred. With a year of development there will undoubtedly be an enormous improvement. With proper funding and another year, who knows?

The point isn't whether its the best system out there, its that the Army dismissed offhand a development that could really help our fighting men and women. Additionally, many generals and their PSD's wear Dragon Skin, and the CIA bought it for their Iraq mission guys as well. This makes it appear to the average joe that its not being issued because of purely budgetary and political reasons. The Army should be having body armor competitions ANNUALLY in order to encourage development and seriously evaluate alternatives that outperform current systems. But it never will, because it could draw money away from its own development programs.

Remember the DARPA challenge? And how nobody even finished the first year? The next year almost everybody completed the course. Encouraging private development is the best way to use American innovation to find better solutions to current problems. Or maybe we should just sit back with our current systems until they aren't good enough? The US Army needs to learn to fight the next war, instead of the previous war.

Pinnacle had/ has a real aggressive marketing strategy and reports (like NBC) used misleading information. They actually achieved that many believe that DS is leightweight, less bulky, indestructable....
The army prohibeted wearing all kind of non-issue body armor, not only DS, because standard issue was finaly available for everyone and other stuff was often sub-standard. Their sabotage claims after testing and aggressive advertisment simply pissed off. You don't bite the hand that feeds you.

[James]

The point is that the technology has the POTENTIAL to increase coverage, mobility, and survivability if it is properly funded and developed.

Agreed. Potential is the operative word.


But the Army was extremely quick to dismiss it before the tests even occurred.

I believe the Army conducts tests if they see a need to do so, not when some vendor comes knocking and says "Hey, I have some equipment that's better than what you've got." Maybe while they let soldiers wear the body armor they want, they can also let them wear whatever uniforms they want, helmets, weapons, etc.
There were some tests in which Dragonskin was defeated by rifle rounds hitting it at certain angles and penetrating between the discs; this did not happen with traditional SAPI plates.


The point isn't whether its the best system out there, its that the Army dismissed offhand a development that could really help our fighting men and women. Additionally, many generals and their PSD's wear Dragon Skin, and the CIA bought it for their Iraq mission guys as well. This makes it appear to the average joe that its not being issued because of purely budgetary and political reasons. The Army should be having body armor competitions ANNUALLY in order to encourage development and seriously evaluate alternatives that outperform current systems. But it never will, because it could draw money away from its own development programs.

I don't want to burst your bubble, but most OGA procurement is not done by the guys who actually use this stuff. The CIA also tried to kill Fidel Castro with exploding cigars... There's a reason why some people refer to them as "Clowns In Action". They aren't all like that guy in the "24" show.

Budget does have a lot to do with this - Dragonskin costs about 4 times as much as regular armor+SAPI plates. The examples I handled were about 30% heavier, regardless of what Pinnacle's literature says. A basic infantryman's load would go from about 70 pounds to about 85. Fine and dandy if your riding around in a vehicle (except that it's bulky as hell), but not so great when you have to get out and move more than a block.

In a perfect world, the Army would have annual competitions to see what's improved. And, every soldier would get a 6.8mm HK416... and all that Landwarrior gear would work flawlessly... and the Stryker would be indestructible...

[lt tahoe]

OR how about use what works, instead of wasting time and money on something that "might"? The implication Pinnacle seems to be putting out there is that IBA is crap, and their armor is great. I haven't heard many complaints about IBA not protecting enough from those who wear it.

[MetroN]

Just wondering, how much of the upper body does the kevlar vest's issued in the US Military actually cover?

[dacanadianbomb]

Decrease weight and thickness of SAPI and lvl3a kevlar within a realistic price range with equal protection and you will be a millionaire.
i always wanted to know how you exactly make sure that there is always a certain number of those plates overlapping at all points of the panel.

[Adam Weishaupt]

This vest appear in the doc's Future Weapons from Discovery Channel.
The vest can resist the explosion of a frag grenade.

[Dling]

Was watching a piece this morning on 'NBC Today' talking about how Dragon Skin Armor although banned by the Army, was still being used by some General Staff PSD and even the CIA.


Why was it banned?

[James]

Why was it banned?


The army prohibeted wearing all kind of non-issue body armor, not only DS, because standard issue was finaly available for everyone and other stuff was often sub-standard.

:cantbeli: Read the rest of the thread next time.

[Dling]

heh...sorry...just skimmed through:oops:

[Ratamacue]

This vest appear in the doc's Future Weapons from Discovery Channel.
The vest can resist the explosion of a frag grenade.First of all, FutureWeapons is a joke. Second, throwing a vest on top of a frag grenade is about as gimmicky as a test can come. DragonSkin is not the miracle that it's been advertised as. Pinnacle Armor has simply perfected their form of propaganda and caused a big political stink because of it.

[X7 =paintball=]

I liked the mail call it was good, the poor guy got:fork:ed in full metal jacket lol. OH yea and :-*$ed lol

[angry cow]

The problem is with the Army only reevaluating its systems when it feel like it is just that. They only do it when the beancounters have decided there might be a problem. Not necessarily when one actually comes up. A regularly scheduled evaluation cycle for every piece of equipment in the Army inventory would make great strides in keeping us prepared to fight current and future wars rather than just keeping the equipment the Republicans gave us last time they were in office. :)

[James]

^^^ I don't disagree with you, I just think that's completely unrealistic.

[angry cow]

Your probably right, I just express my rage in this manner to keep me from going nuts . . .

[Andy-M]

First of all, FutureWeapons is a joke. Second, throwing a vest on top of a frag grenade is about as gimmicky as a test can come.

here's a link to the video, it also stops 7.62x39mm AP rounds too.:| :)

http://www.lookatentertainment.com/v/v-2252.htm

[JDZ]

here's a link to the video, it also stops 7.62x39mm AP rounds too.:| :)

http://www.lookatentertainment.com/v/v-2252.htm

Dude, it is a joke. This guy needs new glasses because he shot soft armor on left axilary and covered it up with his hand. And he is amazed that this vests stops bullets that go through, wait oh my god the new high-tech material named "steel". WOW! I wish this dude would jump on a frag wearing Dragon Skin.
This "test" is also about SOV2000 a level 3+ armor. The Army tested SOV3000 a level 4 system. It fell apart during testing etc. Read Army times.

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/05/Army_dragonskin_070528web/

[Drako]

IMHO such grenade tests are pointless cos when the ganade is close to the vest damage is caused mainly by the explosion blast not by shrapnels cos metal fragments don't gain enough of energy. Anyone laying on the grenade would die either the vest is penetrated or not - the blast would crush all of his chest bones. But still the weapon test was impressive although indeed guy hit the soft point. But - issue vests also have soft points.

[BugHunt]

Minor developement but army have recently released even more details of the tests -

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18790506/



CNN also did a piece - interestingly they did a temperature test (-20 to 120 degree's) and found the plates fell off and collected at the bottom!

Bet there tests didnt cost a quarter million either! :P


Gotta say IF the latest versions of DragonSkin are still falling to bits (cant believe they cant make a better adhesive) and are infact heavier AND bulkier (pinnacle claim its bends and allows better movement) - then this whole damn story is nothing more then BS and VERY cynical marketing.... :bash:




Id wonder in the future if there wasnt some method of combining overlapping plates dragon skin style for the sides, awkward areas, and SAPI plates for the main areas?

Also when are they gonna start issuing groin protection!


Strewth body armour covers "critical areas", and ive only seen journos with drop down groin guards :)

[dacanadianbomb]

From the link above

"In response, Murray Neal, president of Pinnacle Armor which produces Dragon Skin, suggested that the Army lied about some of the testing, and he questioned why the Army was counting shots that "were fired into the non-rifle defeating areas."
"
I thought the whole point of Dragonskin was that it didnt have a "plate" and that all those little discs were going to defeat rifle rounds ?
What are non-rifle defeating areas of a vest that is supposed to be rifle rated ?
The Iba is only rifle rated on the plate area.

[Rakki]

The Interceptor came with groin guards but I don't think soldiers wear them because it gets in the way of mobility.

Incidentally:

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,130937,00.html


The Army plans to field the vest to troops already in Iraq and Afghanistan, though it is still unclear what the total buy will be or when Soldiers readying for deployment will receive one.

The key difference from the current Interceptor is the IOTV's over-the-head entry system, similar to armor used by special operations forces. Army testers claim the vest has a more comfortable fit, with an inner cummerbund that helps distribute the weight of the vest onto a Soldier's waist rather than his shoulders and a mesh liner that helps keep Soldier cool under the burden of the heavy armor.

Army developers also claim the vest is three pounds lighter than the current OTV, which weighs about 30 pounds.

Considering the fact that soldiers are already concerned about the weight of the interceptor and the deltoid plates, the Dragon Skin seems way too heavy.

[Sabre]

Well, I know that the ceramic plates in UK armour stop some pretty hefty rounds. To the point where the plate is intact but the strike of the round is not survivable. If these discs cant even stop rifle calibre AP rounds, then the manufacturers have been taking the urine. And weighing in at 48 pounds?!? How the hell can they pretend that a soldier can operate with body armour that weighs that much? It's pretty disgusting that they're still pushing this issue in the media. I know it's their company that's at stake, but that doesn't compare to soldiers' lives.

[vajt]

I guess a bit off topic, but anyone know what is considered the best protective vest per weight currently available or soon to be made available to soldiers? There are so many future soldier programs out there that all claim to incorporate new armor, I wonder which one has the best one.

It sounds like in the next 10-20 years nano materials will make for extremely flexible, strong and lightweight armors as well as the "liquid" armor that the US wants to introduce for the FFW 2020-2025 which will remain in a liquid state and almost instantly turn solid when stuck by a bullet.

-----JT-----

[Ratamacue]

It sounds like in the next 10-20 years nano materials will make for extremely flexible, strong and lightweight armors as well as the "liquid" armor that the US wants to introduce for the FFW 2020-2025 which will remain in a liquid state and almost instantly turn solid when stuck by a bullet.Alot of what they're looking at with "liquid" armor isn't even liquid in the conventional sense, like most people seem to think (i.e. some kind of gel swishing around in a vest). One of the concepts being explored is simply treating clothing with shear thickening fluids, the result being that your combat uniform alone is able to stop bullets. In fact, I remember seeing a video on this site some time ago of a successful test of such a system, where some (relatively heavy) cloth material was treated with STF's and able to stop a 9mm round.

[JJC]

It will be decades and decades before and if we see these liquid body armor materials

[X7 =paintball=]

yes but the posibility is very good range of 20-40 years, the military will be much stronger.

[James]

yes but the posibility is very good range of 20-40 years, the military will be much stronger.

What does this mean?

[Macs.]

The "Army Strong !"-Slogan shows first success.

[James]

The "Army Strong !"-Slogan shows first success.

rofl Of course! Thank you Macs.

[BugHunt]

For every high tech solution theres a cheaper low tech one!


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=112589



Bulletresistant vests made from coconut fibre and fibre glass!

Who knows what other combinations are out there....

[dobrodan]

For every high tech solution theres a cheaper low tech one!


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=112589



Bulletresistant vests made from coconut fibre and fibre glass!

Who knows what other combinations are out there....

Maybe one of hemp?

It doesnt matter if its not working, as it should only work as a lure for hippies to join the army!

[Herrmannek]

Will it stop bullet from combat rifle/MG? Anyway we have two armors giving comparable protection(penetration, covered area) and a case study saying that soldiers are mostly dying because wounds to extremities and blunt force trauma... No body armor that will not make soldier look like Michelin mascot will solve that...

[James]

Dragon Skin Backers Hammered on Hill

The technical expert solicited by a major news network to certify its tests of Dragon Skin body armor admitted Wednesday that the controversial vests weren't "ready for prime time."

In an investigative report broadcast by NBC May 20, the network used the expert opinion of Dr. Phillip Coyle - the former director of test and evaluation at the Pentagon during the Clinton administration - to certify results of side-by-side tests conducted at NBC's expense in Germany.

In testimony submitted to the House Armed Services Committee during a June 6 hearing in the issue, Coyle stated Dragon Skin - manufactured by Fresno, Calif.-based Pinnacle Armor - was "better … against multiple rounds and in reducing blunt force trauma" than the Army's current rifle-resistant Interceptor armor.

But after being confronted with conflicting information by lawmakers who questioned the NBC test results and provided Army-supplied data of vest failures from a May 2006 test, Coyle backed away from his staunch defense of Dragon Skin.

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,138277,00.html?ESRC=eb.nl

[gonzaleznj]

Army agrees to test Dragon Skin body armor


By Michelle Tan - Staff writer
Posted : Wednesday Jun 6, 2007 20:48:05 EDT

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/06/army_dragonskin_armor_070606/

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/xml/front/mt_bodyarmor_287_070419.JPG

[Argyll]

The Biggest killer in Iraq is IED's and the Blunt Force trauma involved, why waste $3500 plus on a set of BA when the main threat is not from being shot?

[nimer bortuqaal]

It's the American way. The more money we throw at a problem the problem will just go away.

[n1ck]

I don't mean to offend anyones national pride when I say this but the US Army dosent want the Dragonskin because then they will have to admit that the kit they issue to their soldiers arent the best there is. It's all about losing face, a sacrifice few can make especially in these times.

I've seen the videos and it's impressing really. I think it's a nice vest, would like to have one if I was going anywhere "dangerous". The design is cool to. If it protects like they say that it should, I don't know, but it's a nice idea.

[JDZ]

I don't mean to offend anyones national pride when I say this but the US Army dosent want the Dragonskin because then they will have to admit that the kit they issue to their soldiers arent the best there is. It's all about losing face, a sacrifice few can make especially in these times.

I've seen the videos and it's impressing really. I think it's a nice vest, would like to have one if I was going anywhere "dangerous". The design is cool to. If it protects like they say that it should, I don't know, but it's a nice idea.

Dude, even when Pinnacle folks get their act together and produce a level IV vest that doesn't fall apart, their stuff isn't as "cool" as advertised. A SOV 3000 "full torso wrap" which is advertised to make you invulnerable is really heavy.
Same Dragon Skin coverage options like other available vests (e.g. IBA, Crye, IDZ) will be bulkier and heavier. For that you get some flexibility and maybe a better multihit capability. Based on what I have read on Pinnacle's homepage some time ago my 1996 Mehler level IV inserts are not as heavy as their panels...
I would really like to have their advertised vest, but it doesn't exist. The idea is good, the offered product is in best case scenario average.

[madmonkey37]

I don't mean to offend anyones national pride when I say this but the US Army dosent want the Dragonskin because then they will have to admit that the kit they issue to their soldiers arent the best there is. It's all about losing face, a sacrifice few can make especially in these times.

I've seen the videos and it's impressing really. I think it's a nice vest, would like to have one if I was going anywhere "dangerous". The design is cool to. If it protects like they say that it should, I don't know, but it's a nice idea.

Its not about saving face, but about not spending billions of dollars for a marginal increase in protection, not to mention a decrease in mobility.

I'm sure the videos you saw were about actual non bias testing, not promotional videos done or pushed by the marketing department? If its on mail call or future weapons then it has to be an uber weapon and should immediately issued to our troops.:roll: What you see in those videos is what Pinnacle wants you to see and hear. They're not going to go on a national TV show and let proper testing be done since, any failure on national TV could be financially devastating.

[vajt]

The latest article of IMI Defense Update www.defense-update.com (http://www.defense-update.com) has a good article about soldier protection.

-----JT-----

[n1ck]

I can't really comment on the vest because I have never worn it, I've only seen the videos and read stuff about it. Yes it's expensive, expensive as hell. But can you really put a price on human life? If it really protects like it's supposed to, I know that I'd like one of those if I needed one. I think that the vest deserves a chance to proove wether it's worthy or not.

[Macs.]

But can you really put a price on human life?

Yes, of course.

[JDZ]

I can't really comment on the vest because I have never worn it, I've only seen the videos and read stuff about it. Yes it's expensive, expensive as hell. But can you really put a price on human life? If it really protects like it's supposed to, I know that I'd like one of those if I needed one. I think that the vest deserves a chance to proove wether it's worthy or not.

It is not THAT expensive. What I heard it is 6K. That is two times more than IBA, but if it was as good as said everybody would buy it. You have seen videos and read about it. Did you read this threat? Well James has first hand knowlegde and says it is heavier and bulkier. I say the manufacturer himself said when I looked it up that it is slightly heavier than my old issue German Army Mehler insert, which German Army itself calls "too heavy".
When it finally protects like it's supposed to, it is what? LevelIV. Maybe you can enlight me in how far it protects me better than Mehler or IBA?
You only get "better protection" by raising the amount of hard ballistic inserts. And they are heavy. So larger protection comes along with more weight. Larger protection by Dragon Skin comes along with more weight...
You are seeing advertisment videos and pics. Of course they say: See our new lightweight, flexible multihit resistant super vest which stops level IV rounds. Do expect them to say: See our new overweight, bulky vest that fell apart during army testing and sometimes doesn't stop any lead at all? Do a little research and you'll notice that thus the idea behind Dragon Skin is good, their stuff is right now not suited to replace hard armor level IV inserts.

Also the price of a human life depends heavily on your location. :)

[n1ck]

I did'nt say that protects any better, I was asking questions to its protection. I'd like to hear what the soldiers who need such equipment think, if they want the Interceptor or Dragonskin, I think it's the people who are to use the kit that should decide what they're gonna use. And, about the Mehler thing, I've never said anything about it.

[JDZ]

I did'nt say that protects any better, I was asking questions to its protection.


IF the question is purely "Does Dragonskin offer better protection than traditional body armor?" then the answer is yes...

The protection by this dics design is "better" because a) the multihit capability is higher. To stay simple: In theory every single disc in a panel can be shot up before the vest fails. So it is said that DS 10x12 Panels take at least 6 hits of its protection level while lightweight plates normaly take less. (There are plates that take more rounds but they have the same weight as DS and no flexibility) And b) it is also pausible to cover the whole torso with one big insert because it is flexible. Simply enlarging plates would restrict your movement.
BUT covering the whole torso is very heavy and because of that it is not practical. Also the multihit capability and flexibility come along with more weight and bulk. That is because of overlapping discs. (To stay correct: They are curved to reduce weight. That means in overlapping areas they are thinner than in not overlapping areas. But thus that it is heavier than compareable plates)

The capability to stop ammo that exceeds level IV is classified for ESAPI, DS and most other BA, because otherwise you would show what kind of ammunition penetrates your BA.

The problem of Dragon Skin with those tests in USA weren't faults of the design but mainly quality and teething problems. The main problem of the design is as I said several times weight.



I'd like to hear what the soldiers who need such equipment think, if they want the Interceptor or Dragonskin, I think it's the people who are to use the kit that should decide what they're gonna use.



Given a choice, I'll take my kevlar + SAPI.


The Biggest killer in Iraq is IED's and the Blunt Force trauma involved, why waste $3500 plus on a set of BA when the main threat is not from being shot?

Thus I am not a combat hardened US Marine/ contractor I also choose my issue BA or given the choice another plate design.



And, about the Mehler thing, I've never said anything about it.

I mentioned Mehler as an example. You may know it as Bristol vest. It is the old German SK4 body armor. I mentioned it because it was fielded about 10 years ago and its inserts have about the same weight (actually a bit less) than DS level IV. The new German BA inserts take less hits but have a decreased weight. I only intended to show that weight reduction is more important than standig up 6 level IV hits and that DS is a step backwards as your combat load is concerned.

The silly discussion in the USA is in so far sad, because it makes it hard to find facts and infos. So on the one hand Pinnacle cut away weight information for single SOV3000 inserts on their homepage and on the other hand there are all kind of rumors why "scalar design" doesn't work etc. As soon as a severe weight decrease for hard armor materials is achieved this kind of BA will gain more importance.

[n1ck]

Interesting stuff. I've been taken by the videos, Give me a Dragonskin ;) I read somewhere that at first the DS is heavy and uncomfy but after a while it comforms to the body, I cannot then remember where I read this, sorry.

[gonzaleznj]

Ban considered on Dragon Skin maker

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/06/airforce_pinnacleban_070612a/

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/xml/front/at_DragonSkin1_287_070524.JPG

[n1ck]

Ouch. I think that the US Army should give the Dragonskin people a break, just because they invented the best body armour ever, dosent make them into bad guys. So the US Army dosent want to use it, well there are probably plenty of other armies around the world who might see it as an alternative.

[JDZ]

Ouch. I think that the US Army should give the Dragonskin people a break, just because they invented the best body armour ever, dosent make them into bad guys. So the US Army dosent want to use it, well there are probably plenty of other armies around the world who might see it as an alternative.

n1ck I give up explaining that even when "Dragon Skin people" manage to produce BA that meets NIJ requirements in more than one version, holds up environmental testing and meets their own promised specification it is definitly not "the best armour ever"... I also wonder which armies are going to buy DS right now?
As your opinion is based on i-net advertisment videos look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abd9bpvd6zY

Awesome right? Best body armor in the world heh? And their stuff is NIJ certified... But wait maybe, of course only maybe their plates also have some drawbacks? One tip: when a manufacturer says that something has a "minimal weight increase" and only offers confused infos about that than the weight increase is not so minimal...


Decrease weight and thickness of SAPI and lvl3a kevlar within a realistic price range with equal protection and you will be a millionaire.


--> If there was a perfect solution there would be a really rich fella and everybody would use it. But i have neither seen nor heard anything about "perfect body armor".

BTW did you open this thread under another account? http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=114058

[James]

n testimony to the committee, the Air Force related its history with Dragon Skin. While researching flexible body armor, the Air Force purchased some Dragon Skin for evaluation. However, after being notified of Dragon Skin test failures, the Air Force requested a live fire test, which Dragon Skin failed, resulting in a recall of all its Dragon Skin. As it happens, the Army has had a similar experience. It had purchased some Dragon Skin vests for use by its Criminal Investigations Command, but recalled the vests in April 2006, not only because of test failures, but because of false certification claims.

On the Army's website you can see footage of Pinnacle's Murray Neal peering into a hole in ballistic clay--which simulates the human body--after a test round made a full penetration of his product. The Army standard is, not surprisingly, zero penetrations. According to the Army, Dragon Skin suffered 13 penetrations out of 48 test shots. The service also provided NBC with the results from a May 2006 test showing that Dragon Skin failed Army testing, "miserably" in the words of Brig. Gen. Mark Brown of the Army's Aberdeen Proving Ground.

It appears that, contrary to Pinnacle's claims, the dragonskin vest failed multiple tests by the Air Force, Army, and Marine Corps. On top of that, Pinnacle lied about its certification.

Full article here (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/013/795iwopr.asp).

[Argyll]

The main threats in Iraq and Afghanistan is not Small Arms Fire, it's IED's, I would not pay $6K for armour that is effective against 30 AK rounds, the first AK round is going to put you on your arse anyway, the compression of IED's going off under/beside vehicles, causing severe head trauma is the biggest killer in Iraq........Dragon skin under these circumstances is a waste of money!

[playtym]

The main threats in Iraq and Afghanistan is not Small Arms Fire, it's IED's, I would not pay $6K for armour that is effective against 30 AK rounds, the first AK round is going to put you on your arse anyway, the compression of IED's going off under/beside vehicles, causing severe head trauma is the biggest killer in Iraq........Dragon skin under these circumstances is a waste of money!


I've just had the wierdest de ja vu. You posted the exact same thing at the top of the page!!


The Biggest killer in Iraq is IED's and the Blunt Force trauma involved, why waste $3500 plus on a set of BA when the main threat is not from being shot?

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2548464&postcount=41


You can say the same thing over and over again and some folk just don't get it. :cantbeli:

[James]

You can say the same thing over and over again and some folk just don't get it. :cantbeli:

I think that's because dragonskin is supposed to be the sexiest, newest thing. :roll:

[~center~]

I think that's because dragonskin is supposed to be the sexiest, newest thing. :roll:

I thought I was the sexiest, newest thing around here?!!! :)

I was recently having a back and forth email conversation with the CEO of Pinnacle Armor about becoming an authorized dealer of their products. His $4000 dealer cost per unit quote is outta control. Needless to say, I will not be selling any Dragon-Skin armor anytime soon.

Anyways like Argyll said, (gunfire) that's not the most likely threat in Iraq. At that price, DS should protect the wearer from overpressure too! I'm not convinced Dragon-Skin is 4 times better (based on cost) than any regular level IV plate currently available.

[JDZ]

You can say the same thing over and over again and some folk just don't get it. :cantbeli:

I still wonder how the whole thing started...

[Argyll]

Murray Neal is being investigated for lots of different things, his product will never be seen in service.

[California Joe]

I can't really comment on the vest because I have never worn it, I've only seen the videos and read stuff about it.

Then you should probably shut the f*ck up.

[Baboonass]

Here is my one word thoughts about the escalation of bigger and better body armour.

Agincourt.


Think about it.

[n1ck]

Thanks for your lovley comment California Joe.