Is Europe growing a spine?

[Lazy Lob]

I couldn’t have imagined it. Jose Barroso stood up to the Russians and backed Estonia. That’s a good start. Is Europe beginning to grow a spine or was Angela jabbing him in the arse with a pointed stick?

European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso warned Russia that any action taken against an individual EU state would be considered action against the whole bloc.

"It is very important if you want to have close co-operation to understand that the EU is based on principles of solidarity," he said.

Mrs Merkel, whose country holds the EU's rotating presidency, then stepped in, complaining that opposition activists had been prevented from travelling to the summit venue to take part in a protest.

"I'm concerned about some people having problems in travelling here," Mrs Merkel said.

"I hope they will be given an opportunity to express their opinion."

A number of leading anti-Putin activists, including the former chess champion Garry Kasparov, had passports confiscated and were detained at Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport.

The authorities said they had false travel documents.

Several foreign journalists were also reportedly prevented from travelling.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6668111.stm

[fin0084]

I couldn’t have imagined it. Jose Barroso stood up to the Russians and backed Estonia. That’s a good start. Is Europe beginning to grow a spine or was Angela jabbing him in the arse with a pointed stick?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6668111.stm

I hope so.

[IvanIII]

Poor Kasparov missed his airplane :cantbeli:

[signatory]

I couldn’t have imagined it. Jose Barroso stood up to the Russians and backed Estonia. That’s a good start. Is Europe beginning to grow a spine or was Angela jabbing him in the arse with a pointed stick?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6668111.stm

Well actually EU states have been telling Russia to simmer down for many years, but of course since Barroso take on a more general voice for the block it's heard more loudly. At least in the media.

There's also a center-right wind blowing over Europe, with I believe the last 3-4-5 elections have all tipped center-left governments to center-right. And they are usually more USA/NATO friendly.


"We should take him at his word. This was the real Russia of now, and possibly in four or five years time it could go further in this direction," declared Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt in Munich." We have to have a dialogue with Russia but we must be hard-nosed and realistic. We must stand up for our values." 12.02.2007 (http://euobserver.com/13/23471)

[Weasel]

Angela had an open slugfest with Putin.

[caleb]

Poor Kasparov missed his airplane :cantbeli:

I totally agree, how can he dare to voice his gouvernment-unfriendly opinion? Free speech is way too overrated this days.

I once held Putin in high regard, but the recent devolpements remind me of times I thought were long gone. Mother Russia is at a crossroads these days, she needs to contemplate well, which direction she's going to take.

One leads to pluralism, a free, prosperous society and a big European market with great prospects for the Russian economy (Gas and Oil excluded).
The other one leads to a one-way street in which opression, a totalitarian body of thought and old, fusty ex-KGB cadres and isloation from the west set the tone.

I don't want to sound melodramatic but I seriously think Russia needs to overthink it's political course.

[Kitsune]

Europe growing a spine? Will wonders never cease?

[Flamming_Python]

I totally agree, how can he dare to voice his gouvernment-unfriendly opinion? Free speech is way too overrated this days.

I once held Putin in high regard, but the recent devolpements remind me of times I thought were long gone. Mother Russia is at a crossroads these days, she needs to contemplate well, which direction she's going to take.

One leads to pluralism, a free, prosperous society and a big European market with great prospects for the Russian economy (Gas and Oil excluded).
The other one leads to a one-way street in which opression, a totalitarian body of thought and old, fusty ex-KGB cadres and isloation from the west set the tone.

I don't want to sound melodramatic but I seriously think Russia needs to overthink it's political course.

There is no need to associate Prosperity with liberal trade policies and a big European market. Times are changing.

Personally I believe that if Russia were to assume majority national control of it's own natural resources (which are virtually unlimited), it would become the richest nation on the planet.

A population equal to Japan's, but will all those goodies to boot.

[tsuri]

It is not growing a spine, this is merely a primary function. The EU represents small and globally unimportant countries and gives them weight.

[Mamont]

It is not growing a spine, this is merely a primary function. The EU represents small and globally unimportant countries and gives them weight.

Actually - one of the best descriptions of EU.

[mas-36]

What next? The US/UK to grow a brain?

[Breakfast in Vegas]

I once held Putin in high regard, but the recent devolpements remind me of times I thought were long gone. Mother Russia is at a crossroads these days, she needs to contemplate well, which direction she's going to take.

One leads to pluralism, a free, prosperous society and a big European market with great prospects for the Russian economy (Gas and Oil excluded).
The other one leads to a one-way street in which opression, a totalitarian body of thought and old, fusty ex-KGB cadres and isloation from the west set the tone.

I don't want to sound melodramatic but I seriously think Russia needs to overthink it's political course.

Exactly the way I feel. I'll be in Moscow and Sochi next week... Russia is a major part of my life and it's a wonderful country... I also used to be a major Putin fan and still believe he is a miracle that saved Russia. Nonetheless I also believe that Russia is on the fence between greatness and isolation... we'll see how it turns out. Unfortunately, Russians are often their own worst enemies.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

As for Europe, they've done a decent job of observing Russia and not intervening when they shouldn't (see Chechnya and ill-advised Western efforts to westernize Russsia)... but I do see the tone getting colder as Russia becomes more assertive in it's relation with Russia. In a lot of ways I think the honeymoon is over and the recent fascination with "new" Russia will take a more critical turn as Russia tries to define it's position in the modern age.

[Flamming_Python]

Isolation?

Interesting word. Isolation from the West is possible. But with the rise of other power centers in the world, I predict interesting times ahead :D

I would like relations to be better, honestly. And I can't agree with everything Putin has done over the past 7 years (although many things have been exagerrated). Lately I can see things from the Western point of view, and share some of their concerns.

But if the alternative is the kind of exploitation and abuse Russians suffered during the 90's, under the same Boris Yeltsin that the West admires so much, than I cannot but help think that the West would be glad to have the same situation in Russia as 10 years ago. If that is the case, than there should be no regrets from the Russian side.

Still it's sad that we allow our mutual suspicions to reach this point again. But then again, perhaps the suspicions never really went away.

[wholagun]

http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Sections/Newsweek/Components/Photos/Mag/050829_Issue/050820_OverseasMerkel_vl.widec.jpg

GO ANGIE GO!!!!

There was one priceless moment when Putin said how "our Polish friends are not talking to us since one year and we have to communicate through Mrs. Merkel" and Merkel responded something like "Mr. President, it's because Poland doesn't need to talk directly to Russia as I represent Poland and talks on Polish issue are held at EU-Russia level". Please tell me someone else saw Putin's face after she said this, it was priceless! I wish I had a clip to show.
Amazing Angie!
Say what you will about East German women, but this one is good in my books.

http://i18.tinypic.com/6aksbjb.jpg
I see Putin watched one to many Matrix movies

[Flamming_Python]

http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Sections/Newsweek/Components/Photos/Mag/050829_Issue/050820_OverseasMerkel_vl.widec.jpg

GO ANGIE GO!!!!

There was one priceless moment when Putin said how "our Polish friends are not talking to us since one year and we have to communicate through Mrs. Merkel" and Merkel responded something like "Mr. President, it's because Poland doesn't need to talk directly to Russia as I represent Poland and talks on Polish issue are held at EU-Russia level". Amazing Angie! Power in numbers!
Say what you will about East German women, but this one is good in my books.

Look beyond the politics of today, to the bigger picture. There will be no happy ending.

[chinaforce]

eu is gong to a spine ,maybe i think russia and eu can have positive talk with each other,not anginst but operation
also with china too!
wo hope so

[roland]

Growing a spine ? it's rather Russia that crossed a red line threatening a EU member me think. Even those who support good relations with Russia and a more tactfull approach (France, Germany) can't accept that.
(btw those who used this kind of rethoric "growing a spine" those last years, generally considered spine as a brain substitute imo)

[Atlantic Friend]

Well, President Putin has lost sympathetic leaders in Germany and now France. I don't see Chancellor Merkel or President Sarkozy say they "took a deep look in Putin's soul and found he was a swell guy"...which wasn't exactly a spine-rich comment from the US administration, come to think of it.

And to be fair Europe has never been pleased with the way Russia dealt with a number of issues, Chechnya of course, but also how it used energy deliveries as a blackmail tool. And Europe has always said so.

[Kilgor]

Say what you will about East German women, but this one is good in my books.


And more importantly, unlike previous a German leader, she isn't in the pocket of Gazprom.

[Kippari]

Angie for the President of EU!!!p-)

[Switek]

EU stands with Poland to resist Kremlin

By Catherine Belton in Samara and Stefan Wagstyl in Moscow
Published: May 18 2007 17:54 | Last updated: May 18 2007 17:54

European Union leaders ended an acrimonious summit with Russia on Friday by pledging to stand together in the face of Kremlin pressure on Poland.

José-Manuel Barroso, the European Commission president, warned Moscow that if it wanted close co-operation with the EU it was “very important” to understand that the union was “based on principles of solidarity”. A difficulty of one member state was shared by all members. “The Polish problem is a European problem. The Lithuanian and Estonian problems are also EU problems,” he said.


While Angela Merkel, Germany’s chancellor, and Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, took pains to stress the boom in EU-Russian trade, they were unable to hide the widening cracks in the relationship at a gathering that ended without agreement or even a joint statement.

The summit was overshadowed by arguments over Moscow’s ban on imports of Polish meat, the conflict between Russia and Estonia over the removal of a Soviet war memorial and EU leaders’ criticisms of a Kremlin-imposed squeeze on democratic rights in Russia.

Ms Merkel joined Mr Barroso in defending the new member states even as Mr Putin attacked the enlarged EU for complicating relations. He accused Poland of blocking talks on a new EU-Russia strategic partnership for reasons of “economic egoism”.

Mr Putin urged the EU to condemn Estonia for the violence that followed the removal of the Soviet war memorial, accusing the authorities of “consciously” allowing a Russian citizen to die during the demonstration and calling for the “criminals” to be brought to justice. “This was not an accident,” he said.

At times the Russian leader was visibly exasperated. “We often hear about the need for solidarity. Are there any limits to solidarity? Are there any questions that should be decided internally?” he said, referring to the Estonian violence. The summit was also soured by the detention of Garry Kasparov, the former world chess champion, and other opposition leaders at a Moscow airport en route to Samara for the summit where they had hoped to lead an anti-Kremlin march.

Ms Merkel expressed concern about Mr Kasparov. “Law enforcers have the right to use force and detain people if demonstrators turn violent and break windows,” she said. “If a person hasn’t done anything and is just on their way to a demonstration this is a different matter.”

Mr Putin hit back, claiming German police had recently taken similar “preventative” action against protesters in Hamburg too. “Such actions are not always justified,” he said. “We must work on our law enforcers.”

A senior Russian Duma member said it did not matter if preparing a new long-term EU-Russia agreement took a year or two. But he called on Brussels to “teach” new member states how to behave, just as it tried to give Russia lessons on issues such as democracy.

The Financial Times (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2c28348a-055f-11dc-b151-000b5df10621.html)

[Weasel]

And more importantly, unlike previous a German leader, she isn't in the pocket of Gazprom.

I wish she would do similar things for the internal politics. But she doesn´t appear. :roll:

[Herrmannek]

I can bet EU will bend over eventually :) But who knows I will not going to put my life savings on that...

[wholagun]

Look beyond the politics of today, to the bigger picture. There will be no happy ending.


no it won't b/c one side is stubborn and locked into a cold war mentality treating some EU members like its vassals. It's a shame that the two countries cannot work together b/c through cooperation both countries would benefit through tech, econ benefits.
Look at all the events that happened recently, in IR there are no coincidences.
- only pipeline to Lithuania under maintenance for one year
- Ban on Polish meat despite the fact its perfectly fine for export to EU, which has has standards then Russia
- cyber attacks on Estonia ip addresses from Russian gov't
- increase of tariffs on Finnish lumber
- then you have all the energy instances

[daily666]

no it won't b/c one side is stubborn and locked into a cold war mentality treating some EU members like its vassals. It's a shame that the two countries cannot work together b/c through cooperation both countries would benefit through tech, econ benefits.
Look at all the events that happened recently, in IR there are no coincidences.
- only pipeline to Lithuania under maintenance for one year
- Ban on Polish meat despite the fact its perfectly fine for export to EU, which has has standards then Russia
- cyber attacks on Estonia ip addresses from Russian gov't
- increase of tariffs on Finnish lumber
- then you have all the energy instances

Well, I'd add:

- Ukraine cut off from the oil supplies 2005/2006
- Belarus blackmailed by the oil price which went through the roof 2006/2007, thus cutting off Germany and Poland
- open threats to Estonia to cut off diplomatic ties and an economic embargo


I'm thinking, maybe Putin's Russia is not strong enough these days and have used all those power show-offs too early. Maybe he could appease the EU leaders much longer. These days he's going to have hard times in Europe (Germany's Merkel, France's Sarkozy) and especially in the US. It's time to grow a brain (common foreign policy?) in the EU, right after we grow a spine.

It's also interesting where the Russia's policy would go after next (?) year's elections.

[Flamming_Python]

no it won't b/c one side is stubborn and locked into a cold war mentality treating some EU members like its vassals. It's a shame that the two countries cannot work together b/c through cooperation both countries would benefit through tech, econ benefits.
Look at all the events that happened recently, in IR there are no coincidences.
- only pipeline to Lithuania under maintenance for one year
- Ban on Polish meat despite the fact its perfectly fine for export to EU, which has has standards then Russia
- cyber attacks on Estonia ip addresses from Russian gov't
- increase of tariffs on Finnish lumber
- then you have all the energy instances

Yes Russia has some bad relations with countries in the EU. Generally speaking when countries have bad relations Economic links also suffer and pressure is applied.

I don't see how it's any different from EU imposing sanctions on Uzbekistan, Belarus or China for example. And don't give me rubbish about 'no democracy'. Most countries in the world have problems with democracy and human rights. Yet is the EU cutting links with all of them?

Anyway most of your claims are flawed. Let's see:


- only pipeline to Lithuania under maintenance for one year

Agreed, that is suspicious.


- Ban on Polish meat despite the fact its perfectly fine for export to EU, which has has standards then Russia

Polish meat may be absolutely fine, but 3rd country meat with fake Polish certificates is not. Russia has within the past few months, also banned because of health concerns:

Rice from India (who it has excellent relations with), Pakistan (good relations) and Thailand (whom the USA has also cited health concerns with)

Beef from Brazil (once again)

Also Russia has recently denied India the use of its Airspace for commercial flights. Though as far as I know, this is temporary.

Are we to presume Russia is trying to put political pressure on these guys as well?

Even if the health thing were an excuse, probably the worst accusation you can level against Russia in this case, is that of Economic Protectionism (Russian meat production is yet to recover).


- cyber attacks on Estonia ip addresses from Russian gov't
Oh so that's been proven now has it?

Any Tom, **** or Harry can re-route their IP through Russian government servers in order to launch an attack on somewhere else.

Until you have proof that the attacks were made by a Kremlin team (who I severely doubt would use Russian government servers) rather than a bunch of Russian programmers who got overexcited, this is a moot point.


- increase of tariffs on Finnish lumber
The Wood Tariffs are nothing to do with Finland. You probably don't know, but China dwarfs Finland in importing wood from Russia (mainly from Far East area), and as such the tariff was imposed in order to encourage Chinese businessmen to build Wood Proccessing plants in that economically undeveloped area of Russia. If you looked into the issue further, you would have known this.

Of course it's regrettable that Finland suffers from it too. But from what I heard last time, both sides were busy trying to find a solution to these problems. Hopefully Finland will get it's wood cheap again.


- then you have all the energy instances
The only reason they happened is because the countries in question refused to pay the same price for Russian energy as everyone else does. If the situation was reversed the EU would do the same thing.

Though I agree, that the pricing was timed at critical moments. But that in itself is nothing out of the ordinary. If the political elite of those countries drifts away from Russia, there is no need for Russia to continue to subsidise their economies.

[daily666]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/img/global/tol-logo.gif
Merkel gets tough on Russian ‘bullying’
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1805635.ece


David Charter, Europe Correspondent
Angela Merkel told Vladimir Putin last night that Russia could not pick on individual European states and expect a business-as-usual approach from the European Union.

The German Chancellor took her toughest line yet with the Russian leader at a dinner before of today’s EU-Russia summit which has been overshadowed by a series of disputes between Moscow and its former Iron Curtain neighbours.

Mrs Merkel arrived at the summit venue in Samara, a city in southeast Russia, as Anna Fotyga, Poland’s Foreign Minister, declared that EU-Russia relations were in crisis.

Russia has blocked meat exports from Poland for 18 months, citing health fears, in a move seen by Warsaw as purely political.

In return, Poland refused to allow talks to begin today on a new economic partnership agreement between the EU and Russia.

While Mrs Merkel made clear that she did not share Ms Fotyga’s views, she was determined to strike a more robust approach to Mr Putin than that of her predecessor, Gerhard Schröder.

He signed Germany up to a pipeline deal with Russia that bypassed Poland and the Baltic states, much to their annoyance. Mr Schröder, a friend of Mr Putin, then went on to join the board of Gazprom, the company building the pipeline.

Since then Russia’s relations with the EU have soured, with Moscow objecting to plans to locate US interceptor missile technology in Poland and the Czech Republic, and even refusing to ratify a deal to scrap charges for European airlines using Siberian airspace.

The underlined part is a mistake, is it?

[Kaapeli]

- At the moment a Finnish harbor project and it's workers in Kronstad Russia are under violent physical attack by the Russian building agency and the same hooligans who attacked the Estonian embassy during the war memorial dispute.
Some Russian mobster and his city official friends want to take the land back illegally because they have something more profitable in mind. The problem is that the city gave the land for 49 years for the Finnish company to expand the harbor to.

[Flamming_Python]

- At the moment a Finnish harbor project and it's workers in Kronstad Russia are under violent physical attack by the Russian building agency and the same hooligans who attacked the Estonian embassy during the war memorial dispute.
Some Russian mobster and his city official friends want to land back illegally because they have something more profitable in mind. The problem is that the city gave the land for 49 years for the Finnish company to expand the harbor to.

Things like that happen in Russia. To everyone not just Finns. Please don't make it part of the anti-Rus agenda :)

I find it funny about Merkel. A few months ago, when a Russian company bought a stake in European Airbus (5%), she said that the Russians will have no capability to make decisions on any projects of that company. The very next day she attacked Russia about not liberalising it's Gas and Oil projects.

BTW, here is an interesting article: http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20070517/65654258.html


MOSCOW. (Yekaterina Kuznetsova for RIA Novosti) - On May 18, Russia will play host to the Russia-EU summit in the Samara Region. The main news is expected from Poland, which has not lifted its veto on the EU-Russia talks on a new agreement on partnership and cooperation.

Lithuania has also declared that it may veto the talks because of Russia's failure to supply oil to the Baltic's only refinery since June 2006. On the eve of the summit, the European Parliament passed a resolution urging Russia and the European Union to make human rights a fundamental principle of their relations. The Russian press has received information to the effect that the summit will discuss Estonia's actions, notably, the transfer of a monument to Soviet soldiers. Russia is supposed to be to "blame," but not repenting.

The current Russia-EU relations boil down to the two key moments. First, the East European countries are confidently setting the tune in talking to Russia and most of them are infected with the Russophobia virus, as the president's special envoy to the EU, Sergei Yastrzhembsky, put it. Second, there is no united foreign policy as regards Russia, and for this reason instead of conducting constructive dialogue, Brussels, Strasbourg and national capitals are engaged in boring moralizing and keep reprimanding Russia.

Russia's relations with EU countries have been often marred by disputable issues but not once has any major EU nation raised them at a summit, although Moscow's ban on imports of Dutch flowers to Russia for phyto-sanitary reasons or Alexander Litvinenko's mysterious death in London last fall could have well been used for staging a row.

The attitude of East European countries is totally different - Poland and the Baltic nations do not have West Europe's diplomatic potential and do not want a compromise with Russia. Moreover, they have been deliberately trying to hurt it by exploiting its only doubtless element of national identity - the victory over Nazism. Why was Brussels silent when Poland shut down the Russian display at Auschwitz? Why did Estonia decide to move the Bronze Soldier on the very eve of the 62nd VE anniversary and not after the commemoration day?

In the meantime, the European Commission and ministers are ignoring the really serious reasons to delay the start of the talks - there are problems with political rights and the opposition and Russia's refusal to reform its penitentiary system. Instead, "concerns" are being voiced by European parliamentarians, who mix the ABM issue with human rights, the Bronze Soldier with Chechen prisons, Polish meat with Georgian wine.

The conclusion suggests itself - united Europe does not want to assume responsibility for creating a new model of relations with Russia. As a result, the European agenda for Russia is regrettably bleak. It includes obstacles to the conclusion of a new agreement on partnership and cooperation (that is, problems of the Polish agrarians and Lithuanian oilmen); energy security; Russia's WTO entry; and ratification of a treaty to simplify the visa issuing system. On the international front, the Europeans are planning to discuss Kosovo, Iran, the Middle East and prospects of frozen conflicts in Transdnestr and the Caucasus.

The sides hold irreconcilable positions on many of these issues. It is not clear why the EU wants to discuss Russia's WTO entry if it has already signed a protocol to this effect. Or will the Europeans revoke their signature under pressure of some forces? Discussion of energy security is likely to be idle talk. While building state-run capitalism, Russia is carrying out nationalization and monopolizing its raw materials industry - it has no intention to give foreigners access to its deposits or pipelines. This situation could change if the Europeans opened their energy market to Russian companies, but they have made it clear more than once that they are not going to let the "uncivilized Russians" take part in the retail.

Disputes over issues that do not have quick solutions are leading the sides away from crucial questions. Europe wants to include Russian pipes into the pan-European network and have free access to them, but they have never expressed readiness to make Russia part of the trans-European transportation system, especially to those projects that are aimed at increasing the passenger traffic and encourage the population's mobility, which is five times slower in Russia than in West Europe. Uniting Russia and Europe into a single transportation system with integrated routes is the best way of promoting rapprochement and mutually advantageous cooperation.

Russia would welcome proposals on cross border cooperation and exchange of experience; joint efforts against drug trafficking and trade in people; training of Russian police and border troops in procedures of respectful repatriation; and re-equipment of border control check-points to fit European standards (particularly if the Europeans promised to simplify or cancel visa procedures).

Engaged in debates of one and the same questions and the "destinies of the world," the Europeans may forget that tranquility in Europe is a big question. Official sources do not clarify whether the ABM issue will be discussed at all. The Europeans are not masters in their own house if they allow the United States to turn Eastern Europe into an instrument of threatening Russia. Vladimir Putin has already responded to this by talking about a potential moratorium on the Treaty on Conventional Forces in Europe. This is a signal for the Europeans. They might think that he has overreacted - but what do they expect from a country that they promised back in 1999 to integrate into their united economic and social space with a common security system?

The upcoming summit is not encouraging. Its agenda is being compiled by East European states that are settling old accounts and blocking dialogue between key regional players. Instead of starting consultations - even if unofficial - on new forms of cooperation with Russia, be it a privileged agreement on partnership, association or common market, the European bureaucrats have concluded that the agreement on partnership and cooperation can be simply extended. Accusing Russia of authoritarian rule, European officials are unable to do much about the situation. It seems that Brussels does not control EU relations with Russia.

Yekaterina Kuznetsova is an expert with the Center for Post-Industrial Society Studies.

The opinions expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily represent those of RIA Novosti.

[Flamming_Python]

The underlined part is a mistake, is it?

It's no mistake. Where do you think politicians go after they finished with politics? To the big businesses that they supported. Happens in America (**** Cheney anyone? :D), happens in Europe, happens in Poland (i'm sure), happens in China, happens in Russia.

I don't like it, but it's not a uniquely Russian problem.

[daily666]

It's no mistake. Where do you think politicians go after they finished with politics? To the big businesses that they supported. Happens in America (**** Cheney anyone? :D), happens in Europe, happens in Poland (i'm sure), happens in China, happens in Russia.

I don't like it, but it's not a uniquely Russian problem.

No, no. I mean it's a major mistake. Schroeder got a job at Supervising Board of NordGas AG , the Baltic Pipeline operator, not in GAZPROM board of directors or management board.

[lightfire]

The attitude of East European countries is totally different - Poland and the Baltic nations do not have West Europe's diplomatic potential and do not want a compromise with Russia.

a nice BS. How could a neighbour of a suplying country not want a compromise? Wake up, people! Unless you understand meaning of "compromise" as total obedience to Russia, what has come to yer mind?


Moreover, they have been deliberately trying to hurt it by exploiting its only doubtless element of national identity - the victory over Nazism.

ORLY? Who are they,and more preciselly-HOW are they doing that? EU thinks and clearlly says it's quite vice versa.

[Flamming_Python]

I didn't write the article, so it's not my place to defend its words. But...


a nice BS. How could a neighbour of a suplying country not want a compromise? Wake up, people! Unless you understand meaning of "compromise" as total obedience to Russia, what has come to yer mind?

It's true Russia is over-reacting to many things, and trying to set a harsh example, which has shocked me as well as yourself. But at the end of the day, it is not responsible for the initial action.

The message is: Don't try to turn anything against us, and we will leave you in peace.

Trying to stoke up European fears about Russia's "energy reliability" and attempting to create routes around it via states whose elites only have hostility to Russians as a people (notice I said Russians as a people, not Russia as a state), when it is well known that it's predeccessor supplied energy uninterrupted through much darker times in relations than this, is quite suspect. As are the ABM plans for Poland and the Czech Republic.

By "compromise", few among Russia's elite understand it as bending over to the EU's demands for access to Russian resources, nor it's unilateral definition of what a "civilised" country should do in its own territory, nor the Eastern European version of history.

I'm pretty sure that the Russian state would love to become the strategic partner of the most powerfull economic force on the planet, but not at the expense of being lectured or told how to behave.

[Lazy Lob]

................. But at the end of the day, ................

Goodness, I hate that expression.

[Switek]

The message is: Don't try to turn anything against us, and we will leave you in peace.


In my words: "Be as we wish you have to be, and we will leave you in peace."

No wayhttp://www.nfow.pl/images/smiles/wykrzyknik.gif Big or small, rich or poor, old or new, all states, esp. in this part of the world have the same rights. Fortunatelly Europe, at the end of the day, sees trough Putin's intentions and draw proper conclusions. :|

I am happy of this? Not at all, couse it's Russia which marginalizes itself and gives wrong message to its own citizens. Russians deserve for more... :-(

[Mamont]

Switek, let russians decide for themselfes. I guess they know about their needs more than any outsider.

And this sentence "Be as we wish you have to be, and we will leave you in peace." could be applied to any country.

[daily666]

I am happy of this? Nor couse it's Russia which selfmarginalize itself and gives wrong message to its own citizens. Russians deserve for more... :-(

Dare to disagree with you. Russia sends the right message to it's people throught it's fully govt. controlled media. The message is what they exactly want to hear, and even during the summit Russian newspapers already announced Putin's victory with his staunch position towards EU.

See this:



Summit of Objectors
by Kommersant
http://www.kommersant.com/p766869/EU-Russia/

// Russia and the EU measured human rights with each other
Just as expected, the EU-Russia summit that passed near Samara on Friday ended without results. Instead of discussing a new partnership and cooperation agreement, the parties were accusing each other of violating human rights, and searching for a definition of pure democracy. All that might seriously complicate Russia’s entry into the WTO.
Russian President Vladimir Putin, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, and EuroCommission President Jose Barroso met in the Volzhsky Utes residence on May 17-18th. They did not discuss the new agreement on partnership and cooperation, since it is blocked by Poland.

The three leaders gave a press conference, with the conversation going around the rallies of protest in Samara and Hamburg, the ban on Poland’s meat import to Russia, the neo-fascism in European countries, and the human rights.

Meanwhile, chief Russian negotiator for Russia’s accession to the WTO, head of Trade Negotiations Department at the Ministry of Economic Development and Trade, Maxim Medvedkov, showed up at the summit. It might be a sign that the EU might be going to revoke its signature off the signed protocol on Russia’s entry into the WTO, which was indirectly confirmed by Russian Prime Minister Mikhail Fradkov.

It's easy, the summit was blasted by the Poland's veto of "new agreement on partnership and cooperation", than something neo-fascist movements (???) in Europe and meanwhile in other news....

Why Poland vetoed the "new agreement"? Nobody knows, and maybe some smartarse will contect this with a meat ban, which btw was bashed last week by the European commision.

Notice theres totally NO words on Angela Merkel's support for Estonia and Poland or Lithuania.

Those bloody Poles and fascists in Europe, it's all their fault.

[Switek]

daily, we both know that in such circumstances is one BS!

Mamont, have you ever heard about word "compromise"? A basis for of current coexistence in Europe? Besides all divisions inside it?

[daily666]

daily, we both know that in such circumstances is one BS!

Yes but this bullcrap is being sold to the Russians, so don't demand from them to think the same way as we do.

[Switek]

Yes but this bullcrap is being sold to the Russians, so don't demand from them to think the same way as we do.

That's a norm to sold an obvious failrue as a victory in non democratic countries... so I do not demand and this is why I stated they deserve for more...

[Mamont]

Mamont, have you ever heard about word "compromise"? A basis for of current coexistence in Europe? Besides all divisions inside it?
Yes, i've heard that word. Especially regarding Estonia as of late.
What exact compromise? Actually i don't understand why you talk about compromise in current situation. What's the gain and what's the loss to particulary Russia and E?

[Switek]

Yes, i've heard that word. Especially regarding Estonia as of late.
What exact compromise? Actually i don't understand why you talk about compromise in current situation. What's the gain and what's the loss to particulary Russia and E?

Before you accept the fact that Estonia is no longer Russia's province, an is independent, sovereign country, your all argumentation is just pointless...

[Mamont]

Before you accept the fact that Estonia is no longer Russia's province, an is independent, sovereign country, your all argumentation is just pointless...
What? What argumentation? I've asked you a question, so please answer.

[Switek]

What? What argumentation? I've asked you a question, so please answer.

There can not be compromise between Russia and Estonia as long as your government will act as this country is under your supremacy. You know mate? Estonia is the West, whether you like it or not... ;)

[Mamont]

Switek, i do suspect that you really don't understand or don't bother to understand what people wrote to you.

My goverment has nothing to do with your fantasies, as i'm not russian. Leave that supremacy clishe aside and at least try to write a straight answer about that compromise.

[Switek]

Switek, i do suspect that you really don't understand or don't bother to understand what people wrote to you.

My goverment has nothing to do with your fantasies, as i'm not russian. Leave that supremacy clishe aside and at least try to write a straight answer about that compromise.

As I wrote there is no possibility for compromise in this case, becouse of Russian attitude... Well, If you believe those are my "fantasies" means the end of this dispute. Good luck!

[Brute]

Yes but this bullcrap is being sold to the Russians, so don't demand from them to think the same way as we do.

You think the Russians are some kind of brainwashed morons living in isolation from the rest of the world, who are unable to think for themselves and must rely on government controlled media to form their own opinions?
Such arrogance is typical, even on state level in EU relations with Russia, and is the reason for your failure with Russia. You reap what you sow.

[Kippari]

Geez. It went to this again.:)
Behave yourselves kids. We have to agree that Russians can't be treated like any other country in politics. That is because they are still recovering from the fall of SU (hate to bring this up). Russia is not yet very stable in international politics. They got their oil-money too fast, but not too soon either. I don't think that they intentionally bully their smaller neighbors around. It takes time for them to understand that no-one wills bad on them, but are trying to help instead. If we (EU) demand some respect of international treaties from Russia it doesnt mean that we dont demand them from all other too. As I see it, now that Russia is becoming strong, Putin simply wants to test his and the Russian Federations limits. Its pretty obvious that they test EU's integrity and solidarity by smacking their neighbors once in a while. Unfortunately for them they hit their limits where their western border ends.

[lightfire]

The message is: Don't try to turn anything against us, and we will leave you in peace
and what exactly would lie behind these lines? what exactlly makes this turining?
free attitude of sovereign states? speaking as equal to equal on the international/state level? Cultural attachments, perhaps? (really, no need to worry about this one-cultural influnce,mix of russification, information field has done, does and will do it's job for years more to come)


via states whose elites only have hostility to Russians as a people (notice I said Russians as a people, not Russia as a state)

that sounds like allegations to raccism. Which ones, for instance?
Perhaps the reaction of politics (which politis-important, government ones, or some blokes at the minor parties in the parliaments?) aren't always sweet as it is wished, but for that there might also be reasons.
As you say it yourself:


It's true Russia is over-reacting to many things, and trying to set a harsh example, which has shocked me as well as yourself.

In the end EU for now stands behind its members, and that was quite clearly shown. For good or for worse in future..well, we shall see, what the grand strategists of Kremlin will think about. Clearlly is one thing-elections are soon, and one must find enemies, to be elected. Quite important electorial factor in Russia that is.

[roland]

no it won't b/c one side is stubborn and locked into a cold war mentality treating some EU members like its vassals. It's a shame that the two countries cannot work together b/c through cooperation both countries would benefit through tech, econ benefits.
Look at all the events that happened recently, in IR there are no coincidences.
- only pipeline to Lithuania under maintenance for one year
- Ban on Polish meat despite the fact its perfectly fine for export to EU, which has has standards then Russia
- cyber attacks on Estonia ip addresses from Russian gov't
- increase of tariffs on Finnish lumber
- then you have all the energy instances

from the top of my head:
- EU and US pressure on Russia just because they are crushing some secessionist scums in Chechenia,
- Polish and evangelist support and influence for Ukrainian secession,
- Polish endless provocations against Russia (and Germany btw),
- fast integration of the Baltic states in NATO (witch is a good thing, the Baltic states don't belong to Russia but still can be felt as dangerously close for a lot of Russian and make them nervous and touchy),
- US troubling game in Georgia,
- anti-missile systems in Poland and in Tcheque Republic (sp?) without concertation,
- probably others I forgot.
That is much more serious worries for the Russian people than the one we have man.

Now about the way Russia deal it's oil, it is THERE oil and they can perfectly deal it the way they want. Those who are not happy can buy some nuclear plan in France instead ;)

An alliance between France, Germany and Russia is some atlantist worse nightmare. That's as if everything was done to provoque Russia and push them at fault.
Pity that in the Russian gov there is a lot that would find there interest too in a new period of tension between Russia and "the West".

[kakapea]

Switek, let russians decide for themselfes. I guess they know about their needs more than any outsider.


Hmm, but this was not the case with the bronze soldier sh*t?

That is totally against your point of view to things concerning the monument racket.

[daily666]

Pity that in the Russian gov there is a lot that would find there interest too in a new period of tension between Russia and "the West".

English, not Engrish please?!?

[Flamming_Python]

Yes but this bullcrap is being sold to the Russians, so don't demand from them to think the same way as we do.

:cantbeli:

Come on daily666 you are smarter than this. All of us think the way we do because we are on different sides on these issues, not because any one side is 'brainwashed'.

Yes from your point of view Russia is an aggressor who bully small nations, want to re-construct the USSR. Fair enough, I agree there is cause to believe that. I don't blame you for viewing us as a threat, nor your genuine desire to safeguard your part of the world from any threat. It is an honourable goal. But you know as well as I do, that things are never so black and white. This isn't a hollywood film, where there are good guys and bad guys. Only bad guys on both sides, and as for the rest, victims of the struggle between different elites, whether they realise it or not.

From our point of view, we have been spit on ever since the presidents of the Russian, Ukrainian and Belarussian soviet republics agreed to willingly abolish the cold war, agreed to abolish the USSR, and each declared independence from the Soviet Union. There was no partnership, no assistance, no nothing. Everyones hopes for a brighter future faded and turned into misery and at worst, hatred.

Our wealth was plundered with assistance from Western businessmen and elites, Russian life expectancy went into free-fall, and now missile bases and a huge army is appearing at our borders. What do expect us to think?

Personally, it simply seems to much of a co-incidence to me that as Russia has managed to rebuild it's economy, relations with the West have turned sour. Too much of a co-incidence. I'm also pretty sure that no matter the diplomatic words and language of today, if Russia were to dis-intergrate into little bits and pieces tommorow, within no-time a new myth will be constructed about how the citizens of republic X Y and Z always wished for independence, and any attempt to look back to Russia's existence as being a positive thing, will give you similar responses to that of trying to glorify the USSR today.

Still too many people associate Russians as the overlords of the USSR (lightfire you stand out in particular) and the enslavers of all other people. They must be punished, while the Ukrainians, Georgians and other whatnot's must be praised for their courage in overcoming the Russian grasp and seeking independence. Sad.

Russians saw it as a peace agreement for the cold war to end. The West saw it as their victory. You can accuse us of defending our truimph of WW2, while America has itself based it's whole ideology over the last 15 years on great triumph over the communist adversary.

[daily666]

:cantbeli:

Come on daily666 you are smarter than this. All of us think the way we do because we are on different sides on these issues, not because any one side is 'brainwashed'.

I have friends who work for several different companies in Moscow. They all sound as one, that the lack of independent media in Russia is to be seen and felt even more than it is today. You can clearly see how the news are being managed by the Russian info sites. Not even they misinform about events. They don't inform about a lot of things at all. As far as I remember Flamming, you're residing in UK, thus have a different perspective.

Also I'm talking about the average Russians. Why? Because most of the Russians remember when they were an Empire, when they were a superpower, and everyone was afraid of them. That's why you're giving up your civil liberties, free press and freedom of speech- to achieve that status again. And you're getting it for sure.

Russia is becoming a rich and wealthy country. And that's why the countries it can project it's influences are afraid. I can give you some quotes from Russian MPs and Moscow Mayor that almost declared an all out war on Estonia just because they moved some damned monument. So, it's easy- if you have the power, you just use it. So it's good that Angela said what she said, and maybe after the EU declaration of unity next time some of Russians won't be so fast in stating their own mind, which also gave us some index of cruelty...and unity of Russians. For two weeks the network systems of Estonia's govt. banks and companies were down due to hacker attacks, coming from Russia I guess. And that's just one monument! I know the speculations about those coming from Russian govt. were dismissed, no drama. It was so bad that two of NATO's top specialists in internet warfare, plus an American colleague, have hurried to Tallinn to observe the onslaught. The instructions for D-O-S attacks were everywhere in Russia, so even a private person could do his 1/10000000 to hit Estonia computer systems. And they did. You can say we're oversensitive, but I say that History is a knowledge that never thought anyone about anything.


Yes from your point of view Russia is an aggressor who bully small nations, want to re-construct the USSR. Fair enough, I agree there is cause to believe that.

From our point of view, we have been **** and spit on ever since the presidents of the Russian, Ukrainian and Belarussian soviet republics agreed to willingly abolish the cold war, agreed to abolish the USSR, and each declared independence from the Soviet Union.

Our wealth was plundered with assistance from Western businessmen and elites, Russian life expectancy went into free-fall, and now missile bases and a huge army is appearing at our borders. What do expect us to think?

Personally, it simply seems to much of a co-incidence to me that as Russia has managed to rebuild it's economy, relations with the West have turned sour. Too much of a co-incidence. I'm also pretty sure that no matter the diplomatic words and language of today, if Russia were to dis-intergrate into little bits and pieces tommorow, within no-time a new myth will be constructed about how the citizens of republic X Y and Z always wished for independence, and any attempt to look back to Russia's existence as being a positive thing, will give you similar responses to that of trying to glorify the USSR.

Still too many people associate Russians as the overlords of the USSR (lightfire you stand out in particular) and the enslavers of all other people. They must be punished, while the Ukrainians, Georgians and other whatnot's must be praised for their courage in overcoming the Russian grasp and seeking independence. Sad.

Russians saw it as a peace agreement for the cold war to end. The West saw it as their victory. You can accuse us of defending our truimph of WW2, while America has itself based it's whole ideology over the last 15 years on great triumph over the communist adversary.

That part about cold war ideally fits into what I've written above. The yearn for the days when Russia was USSR is very strong.

Well your point of view is somehow true, but the actions from both sides are different and not equivalent. Nobody's threatening Russia with economic sanctions (i.e making duties or taxes higher) like Russia did in the couple of years. It was Russia which clearly used it's "energy" weapon against Ukraine and later, against Belarus. I remember, even here, many Russians saying, it's our Gas so we can sell it for whatever the price we want to. OK so if your govenment acts in the same manner (and it does, as we see) it will feel the long term consequences.

That's why I've written before, that maybe Putin played his hard game of chess too early.

[Mamont]

As I wrote there is no possibility for compromise in this case, becouse of Russian attitude... Well, If you believe those are my "fantasies" means the end of this dispute. Good luck!

Russian attitude... You simply jumped off the train.

Daily666, you oversimplify the situation. There are always at least two players to actually play the game. Continuous media wars, political clashes are not inspired or started by Russia alone.

[daily666]

Daily666, you oversimplify the situation. There are always at least two players to actually play the game. Continuous media wars, political clashes are not inspired or started by Russia alone.

Of course there are more players involved. I think the West is also to blame. They (well, many Poles in fact) thought Russia would be the same as it was during the 90's. Spoilt and overwhelmed by internal chaos. I remember the peak of those times, in 1999 where nobody cared about the fact Russian FM plane went back to Moscow enroute to US when NATO started it's Kosovo (Serbia) bombing. Nobody cared about what Moscow had to say. So now when the Russia is in the game it'll take some time to settle and learn how to deal with each other. If they don't, we'll have another cold war preety soon. First Russia showed that it means what it says, but these days it was EU that finally sounded like a union to show Russia, it's back in the business. It's called balance of power. And it's good.

[Flamming_Python]

I hoped you wouldn't be stubborn about this. We could have agreed to disagree, but you chose to lecture me about my own country. Interesting.


I have friends who work for several different companies in Moscow. They all sound as one, that the lack of independent media in Russia is to be seen and felt even more than it is today. You can clearly see how the news are being managed by the Russian info sites. Not even they misinform about events. They don't inform about a lot of things at all. As far as I remember Flamming, you're residing in UK, thus have a different perspective.

What news isn't reported by the Russian media? Kasparov? He is covered i'm sure. Perhaps not as much as you would like. Still the Russian TV media is mostly controlled by the state, and that control is only likely to increase in the future, so I share your concerns on this. Very recently there was an incident whereby all the employees in a Russian news agency walked out and went on strike, because they claimed censorship was happening.

But are making a fundamental mistake, if you assume that Kasparov is such an important and influential figure among Russians to begin with, that he should be worthy to have his face plastered on the Russian TV screens 24 hours a day. If that's the case, wrong assumption.

The most powerful polticial blocks right now are United Russia, the Communist Party, Just Russia, and Great Russia (more on those guys later).

Oh and Russian info sites? Which ones would those be? RIA Novosti, Kommersant, ITAR-TASS or perhaps Interfax? Read those, they all have English language versions, and all of them report everything, I assure you.

Overall I'm not worried about censorship in Russia. An increasing amount of people are communicating and getting their information via the internet. A huge government program is underway to spread internet everywhere in Russia within 10 years or so.

Plus the print-media is still free. AFAIK there have been no moves to try and grasp control over it.


Also I'm talking about the average Russians. Why? Because most of the Russians remember when they were an Empire, when they were a superpower, and everyone was afraid of them. That's why you're giving up your civil liberties, free press and freedom of speech- to achieve that status again. And you're getting it for sure.

daily666 with all due respect, you are full of ****

You have succumed to the same virus as Switek p-) The one talked about in the article I quoted, you know "Russophobia". The idea that Russians are somehow more naive than other people, and never know what's best for their own land, while being hideously oppressed by their own elite, who in turn brainwashes them to go and oppress other nations.

Please go to my country and ask them about why they are supporting Putin, rather than make assumptions that make you look very ignorant. I mean what is this, Star Wars or something? I just told you to not mix up real life with a movie.

Don't worry, you won't be kidnapped by FSB. People won't throw eggs at you for being Polish. I hope at least that you will learn why Putin is respected when you see the huge skyscrapers and enourmous wealth being increasingly generated by the country, which over the past 2 years in particular has genuinely started to filter down to the people.

as well as the huge national projects covering everything from Agriculture to Housing to Nanotechnology (a 1 Billion Dollar investment over the next 3 years was announced for Nanotechnology last month). Although the performance and implementation of these projects has been called into question over corruption charges, which Putin himself highlighted recently.

What do Russians want? I can't speak for everyone, but I would dare to say that it's the same as everyone else, as every other non-psychopathic human... Wealth, a future for their children, and hope. The current administration is percieved as bringing that. Hence it is supported, with Putin's support up to 80% now at the last polls.

There is no desire to make everyone afraid of us. People who want that go support one of the nationalist parties, or the huge nationalist party that was created only a few weeks ago as a merger of many of the smaller ones (Great Russia), and personally scares the hell out of me.

But yes, we are a paranoid people. We do think everyone from the West to the Chinese will suck us and our huge resources dry if they had the chance. They don't have to conquer us to do it, as the past 15 years proved.

And that is why Russia as a nation, desires strength. And lots of it.


That's why I've written before, that maybe Putin played his hard game of chess too early.

Poker is more my game. No such thing as checkmate.

[Kilgor]

But yes, we are a paranoid people. We do think everyone from the West to the Chinese will suck us and our huge resources dry if they had the chance. They don't have to conquer us to do it, as the past 15 years proved.

And that is why Russia as a nation, desires strength. And lots of it.
.

And often its your own leaders who have exploited you and sent you to the prisons, camps and the grave.

Many Europeans and Americans are concerned about the Russian attitude that autocracy is the only way for them to achieve stability and prosper. And the west is rightfully worried about the historical president of this form of government being exported by Moscow.

Russia is at the crossroads and it looks like its returning to the path it knows. And you wonder why some are worried ?

[Brute]

Russia is returning to being a great nation once again. A nation, who's words and opinions matter and are taken into account. And those in the West who fondly remember the "golden nineties" and who would like to see nothing more than Russia in shambles, with drunken puppet of a president at the helm, are worried, as well they should be. ;)

[Lazy Lob]

Russia is returning to being a great nation once again. A nation, who's words and opinions matter and are taken into account. And those in the West who fondly remember the "golden nineties" and who would like to see nothing more than Russia in shambles, with drunken puppet of a president at the helm, are worried, as well they should be. ;)

No one wants to see, as you put it, "the golden nineties" again. Stability is in everyones benefit.

Greatness can be achieved many ways, some less lasting than others. Do you think there's a possibility that Russia may be taking the wrong route?

[Mamont]

And often its your own leaders who have exploited you and sent you to the prisons, camps and the grave.
As in every nation. So no point to bring this on.



Many Europeans and Americans are concerned about the Russian attitude that autocracy is the only way for them to achieve stability and prosper.

Actually, you're mistaken here. Autocracy is a straight answer to increasing western pressure on russian goverment and internal affairs.
You obviously forgot how west was worried when proposal came to shut all foreighn-founded organisations. Many of which are directly responcible for the unrest and involved in different anti-goverment media campaighns. You can look for "Freedom house" activities and initiatives for example.



Russia is at the crossroads and it looks like its returning to the path it knows. And you wonder why some are worried ?
No wonder, really. As Russia becoming independent and more self-aware, thus becoming less controllable and easy to exploit.

[Flamming_Python]

People don't understand Eastern European politics. It is very easy for someone to make up a story and make a certain politician look bad, or for someone to organise a popular movement and rent a crowd simply with enough money, or for someone to make a corrupt deal and then blame it on someone else.

While I can see the concerns about democracy, at least tightening the political proccess will prevent such things to an extent, as well as a situation like the continous deadlock in the Ukraine.

But things like this happen all over, in every country. Russia is being singelled out. For example, the following story hasn't been mentioned at all in the Western Media. If it happened in Russia, I am sure there would be a tornado of articles:

http://www.interfax.ru/e/B/politics/28.html?id_issue=11746375


DONETSK. May 16 (Interfax) - Ivan Podolenchuk, a judge of a Donetsk court who suspended President Viktor Yushchenko's decrees dismissing two judges of the Constitutional Court, was involved in a traffic accident on Wednesday, Yury Myroshnychenko, a member of the Party of Regions' parliamentary faction, told Interfax.

"He [the judge] was on his way to work in his own car. A car with tinted windows suddenly overtook his car," he said.

Podolenchuk's car swerved off the road and crashed into a tree. The judge lost consciousness, Myroshnychenko said.

When the judge regained consciousness, "he saw that someone had rummaged in his brief-case and his keys had disappeared," the deputy said.

Yet it is the Russian media that is accused of unfairness. Not that i'm saying that the report this person made is true or not, it's hard to tell that sort of thing.

[wholagun]

Russia is returning to being a great nation once again. A nation, who's words and opinions matter and are taken into account. And those in the West who fondly remember the "golden nineties" and who would like to see nothing more than Russia in shambles, with drunken puppet of a president at the helm, are worried, as well they should be. ;)


you put Russia at the center of the universe and think that everything revolves around it, and I don't say that to be condesending. Its not that ppl want to keep Russia down but other countries especially its neighbors want stability and security be it physical and economic. Its not about its neighbours trying to screw Russia over b/c it'd be so much better to get cooperation and benefit and prosper. No two countries ever benefited from insecurity and suspicion just look at the Canada US border the two countries prosper b/c we work together and have huge lucerative trade relations. Some countries especially the former communist states are worried and are taking steps to protect themselves from what they see as threat - it's all about threat perception , and it doesn't matter if it's a threat or not its about the perception of that threat. When Russia bullies countries with gas and oil and trade blockades it worries some. Getting back to the point i am tring to make is that Russia's neighbours have more to gain through cooperation and economic links with the huge Russian market that is advanced then through suspicion and conspiracy

[daily666]

I hoped you wouldn't be stubborn about this. We could have agreed to disagree, but you chose to lecture me about my own country. Interesting.

I didn't. I wanted to show how the others look at it and see Russia.


daily666 with all due respect, you are full of ****. You have succumed to the same virus as Switek p-) The one talked about in the article I quoted, you know "Russophobia". The idea that Russians are somehow more naive than other people, and never know what's best for their own land, while being hideously oppressed by their own elite, who in turn brainwashes them to go and oppress other nations.

Thank you, if you think you've achieved something by offending men and going personal you missed the whole point of this, rather cultural, conversation.


Poker is more my game. No such thing as checkmate.
Too bad, all the greatest Russian military officers played chess.

I don't have to respond to your posts, just quote:

Russia is returning to being a great nation once again. A nation, who's words and opinions matter and are taken into account. And those in the West who fondly remember the "golden nineties" and who would like to see nothing more than Russia in shambles, with drunken puppet of a president at the helm, are worried, as well they should be.[/

He exactly proved my point. Russians miss the GREAT EMPIRE and will do everyting to be so. If USSR sacrificed 20 million of it's own citizens to be powerful, it's easy peasy and cheap to sacrifice common values and freedom.

[Flamming_Python]

I didn't. I wanted to show how the others look at it and see Russia.

You started to lecture me about what I think and why I support Putin. If you were trying to show what you think of Putin, then you should have stated so in the beggining.


Thank you, if you think you've achieved something by offending men and going personal you missed the whole point of this, rather cultural, conversation.

"You elected Kaczinsky because you hate Russians"

I apologise for insulting you, it was uncalled for. But statements like the one I made above can hardly be defined as a 'cultural conversation'



He exactly proved my point. Russians miss the GREAT EMPIRE and will do everyting to be so. If USSR sacrificed 20 million of it's own citizens to be powerful, it's easy peasy and cheap to sacrifice common values and freedom.

You claim that Russians want their country to be powerful for the sake of being powerful, thus somehow seperating us from the rest of the peace-loving European peoples who want economic and military security.

Russians want their country to be powerfull because they believe that is the only way they will be able to have peace and a future for their children. We aren't in NATO. We don't have big brother USA to guide and protect us. You accuse us of not being trustworthy, while I can accuse the Polish leadership of the same thing. They had no trust towards the new Russia of the 90's, hence why they joined NATO as soon as possible. Can't say I blame you, so please don't blame us.

Wholagun: We're also not like Canada, who only has 1 border to protect.

Canada could potentially become richer if it started to open trade en-mass with all the nations in the world that the USA considers to be pariah states. With its technology it could really generate a large amount of wealth through such co-operation. But in return, it's relations with the USA would worsen, and that is very dangerous for it, both economically and politically. Not that i'm saying that the Canadian people would support something like that, it's simply a theoretically scenario I brought up.

Russia is the largest country in the world, and is surrounded by powerfull blocks, from NATO, to the Islamists, to the Chinese. All 3 of them would benefit greatly from a weak Russia, as the EU will if it gobbles up the Ukraine. That is why it must look after itself and its own interests.

[Brute]

He exactly proved my point. Russians miss the GREAT EMPIRE and will do everyting to be so. If USSR sacrificed 20 million of it's own citizens to be powerful, it's easy peasy and cheap to sacrifice common values and freedom.



I want peace, stability and prosperity for my nation and the only way to ensure that is through strength (economic and military), independence, firmness in your actions, rule of law.
Because the 90's clearly showed what happens otherwise.

[Lazy Lob]

................... rule of law.



That’s a bit of a quandary. Whose law? Russian law doesn't seem to have an enforced framework. Quicksand is something that comes to mind.

[Brute]

That’s a bit of a quandary. Whose law?

Russian law.



Russian law doesn't seem to have an enforced framework. Quicksand is something that comes to mind.First of all, what is the framework of Russian law? Define it, please. Then bring examples of it constantly changing to support your conclusion.

[Switek]

Russian law.

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

In Moscow, Sankt Petersburg, Köningsberg, Chechnya, Vladivoostok, Ural or other place? What planet do you live in.... :roll:

[Mamont]

Switek, switek.. You perfectly understanded what he meant. No need to flame.

[Flamming_Python]

Switek, switek.. You perfectly understanded what he meant. No need to flame.

But to be fair he does have a point.

Russia is still a corrupt country with ambigous laws that can be manipulated by the government and avoided by any powerful businessman.

Granted, the situation is getting better, but of all the problems, this one will probably take the longest amount of time to fix. Doesn't mean that one shouldn't try though...

In terms of political law, I am personally hoping that upon his resignation in 2008, Putin becomes the head of the constitutional court or some powerfull parliamentry position, from where he would have the position to empower non-presidential mechanisms in the Russian government.

Whoever the next president of Russia may be (only serious candidates are probably Medvedev and Ivanov), he will at most barely have half the public support that Putin has now and will retain when he resigns from the post of president. It could create a real balance of power in Russia between the elected Duma members, and the president.

[Brute]

Switek, switek.. You perfectly understanded what he meant. No need to flame.

No need to take him seriously and reply. It's his standard tactic: pull one word out of context, make some snide remarks on it, the meaning of which one, most of the time, can barely even comprehend and start a flame war. Therefore, debating with him is a serious waste of one's time. Just follow my advice - skip his gibberish altogether. ;)

[Kilgor]

As in every nation. So no point to bring this on.

.

What soviet leaders did to its own people in the name of the greater good does not need further explanation. What does need to be pointed out that few governments in the last 100 years ever sank so low as treating its people like common cattle.


Actually, you're mistaken here. Autocracy is a straight answer to increasing western pressure on russian goverment and internal affairs.
You obviously forgot how west was worried when proposal came to shut all foreighn-founded organisations. Many of which are directly responcible for the unrest and involved in different anti-goverment media campaighns. You can look for "Freedom house" activities and initiatives for example.

The Bolshevik's used the same excuse about being surrounded with spies, wreckers and foreigners. We need to violate your human rights and law because we are surrounded by internal and external enemies !


No wonder, really. As Russia becoming independent and more self-aware, thus becoming less controllable and easy to exploit.

Go ahead, stick your neck in the yoke again, you'll see exploitation.

[Brute]

But to be fair he does have a point.



No, he doesn't. He's taken it out of context.

Don't confuse the non-enforcement of the laws (i.e.corruption) as a sign of their non-existence. In my original post I said that the rule of law is something that Russia needs to aspire to in order to become strong. A significant progress has already been made in that direction, compared to the 90's, when it was a "free for all" deathmatch.

[Flamming_Python]

No, he doesn't. He's taken it out of context.

Don't confuse the non-enforcement of the laws (i.e.corruption) as sign of their non-existence. In my original post I said that the rule of law is something that Russia needs to aspire to in order to become strong. A significant progress has already been made in that direction, compared to the 90's, when it was a "free for all" deathmatch.

Ah I see your point. Putin some time ago promised to build "a dictatorship of the law" in Russia p-)

[Brute]

Whoever the next president of Russia may be (only serious candidates are probably Medvedev and Ivanov)

Surprise, surprise! :)

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/439/74185354kr1.jpg


Kaliningrad, RUSSIAN FEDERATION: (FILES) This picture taken 25 September 2006 shows Russia's First Lady Lyudmila Putina speaking at a seminar on children's reading problems in Kaliningrad. Anatoli Beiev, a Russian politician has begun a campaign to encourage President Vladimir Putin's wife to join the race to succeed her husband in office, a newspaper reported 18 May 2007.;)

[Mamont]

What soviet leaders did to its own people in the name of the greater good does not need further explanation....(other delirium skipped)

I forgive your ignorance about russian history. But here's a good advise i'd like you to follow: read the books. They contain knowledge.

[Switek]

No, he doesn't. He's taken it out of context.

Don't confuse the non-enforcement of the laws (i.e.corruption) as a sign of their non-existence. In my original post I said that the rule of law is something that Russia needs to aspire to in order to become strong. A significant progress has already been made in that direction, compared to the 90's, when it was a "free for all" deathmatch.

O'Rly? :roll: There is a rule of law or not, at all. You can not be pregnant in 50%. There is a law in Russia which is permanently violated for political purposes.

Let's look at casus of Karinna Moskalenko (http://www.icj.org/article.php3?id_article=2885&id_rubrique=13&lang=en)


Nobody is Untouchable - Karinna Moskalenko in the WSJ

Bret Stephens of the Wall Street Journal publishes a compelling defense of Russian lawyer Karinna Moskalenko, whom this blog has long supported.

'Nobody Is Untouchable'

Karinna Moskalenko is Russia's most distinguished human-rights lawyer. Vladimir Putin wants her disbarred.


Ms. Moskalenko, 53, is the founder of the Moscow-based International Protection Center. For more than a decade, she has been arguing cases before the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, France, to whose judgments Russia has been legally bound ever since it incorporated the European Convention on Human Rights in its 1993 Constitution. "We started with dozens of cases," she says, recalling the IPC's earliest days during the Yeltsin era. "We are now dealing with hundreds of cases."

Today, her clients include the imprisoned former Yukos CEO Mikhail Khodorkovsky, chess champion and opposition leader Garry Kasparov and the family of murdered journalist Anna Politkovskaya. She also represents the victims of the 2002 "Nord-Ost" Moscow theater hostage crisis, and the relatives of Chechen civilians who have been tortured, murdered or disappeared in Russian "counterterrorism" operations.

With its minuscule staff of eight lawyers and 20 trainees, the IPC receives roughly 12,000 requests for representation a year, though most lack adequate documentation to be brought to trial. Still, her current caseload in Strasbourg, totaling about 180, represents the lion's share of the court's docket, and she knows how to get results: Her victory in the 2002 Kalashnikov case -- involving a man who had been held in pre-trial detention for five years in cramped and disease-ridden conditions -- forced the Russian government to embark on its first serious attempt at modernizing its prison system.

Such work has earned Ms. Moskalenko no shortage of formal tributes outside of Russia. In 2003 she was elected to the International Commission of Jurists; in 2006 she won the International Helsinki Federation's Human Rights Recognition Award. Within Russia it's a different story. Mr. Putin's government assault on the IPC began by questioning the validity of its original registration. Next it proceeded to a tax audit -- a favorite Putin tactic against financially strapped human-rights NGOs -- on the theory that the IPC had used funds from the National Endowment for Democracy and the Ford and MacArthur Foundations for profit-taking. Though the government's claims were easily disproven, it refuses formally to close the case.

But for sheer chutzpah nothing approaches the government's attempts to disbar Ms. Moskalenko on the grounds that she has incompetently represented Mr. Khodorkovsky -- a remarkable bit of solicitude for a man whose sentence to a Siberian prison camp has just been extended. According to a motion filed April 18 by the prosecutor general's office with the Russian registration service, Ms. Moskalenko failed her client in February when she was forced to leave a lawyers' conference with Mr. Khodorkovsky a day early to attend to her sick 14-year-old son. "This [motion] has been decided at a high level, though we don't know who exactly ordered it," says Ms. Moskalenko. Prosecutor General Yuri Chaika was until last year Mr. Putin's minister of justice.

The story of what happened to Ms. Moskalenko on that visit to Siberia is worth telling, if only for the light it sheds on the government's efforts -- by turns petty and sinister -- to harass her and her team. On Feb. 4, she arrived at Moscow's Domodedovo airport to discover that the rest of her legal team had been "detained" by police and Interior Ministry officials who seized their passports, ransacked their luggage and inspected confidential documents related to cases before the Strasbourg court, including Mr. Khodorkovsky's, before allowing them to board the plane. On her return, Ms. Moskalenko was again detained by officials who forced her to sign papers forbidding her from disclosing the details of the government's new case against Mr. Khodorkovsky. On account of her son -- whose ill health the authorities were aware of -- she signed.

Ms. Moskalenko speculates that the current disbarment action stems from the legal fuss she raised about the incidents at the airport. "After I complained to the prosecutor general they reconsidered what to do about me. They stopped abusing me at the airports. Instead, they decided to finish my career." The motion will first have to wind its way through a special committee of the Moscow bar, but failing that the government can file for her disbarment in court. "There's no precedent that I know of for this," she says. "They will make an experiment of me."

Disbarment would effectively put an end to Ms. Moskalenko's career in Russia, including her efforts (the latest as recently as yesterday) to defend Mr. Kasparov's political activities in court. It would also require her to seek approval from the presidency of the Strasbourg court every time she sought to bring a case to trial, just the sort of humiliation in which Mr. Putin's government delights.

Yet it's the broader ramifications of the government's actions that most concern Ms. Moskalenko. While she scrupulously avoids mentioning Mr. Putin by name -- "I am strictly not a politician," she says more than once -- she is under no illusions about his methods. In today's Russia, "it isn't necessary to put all the businessmen in jail. It is necessary to jail the richest, the most independent, the most well-connected. It isn't necessary to kill all the journalists. Just kill the most outstanding, the bravest, and the others will get the message. Nobody is untouchable. I tell Kasparov: 'Look, you are not untouchable.'"

For now, however, it is Ms. Moskalenko herself who is in Mr. Putin's sights -- a dangerous place to be, given the experience of so many of her clients. Characteristically, she isn't budging. Robert Amsterdam, a Canadian lawyer on Mr. Khodorkovsky's defense team, recalls that when he was arrested in September 2005 by Russian security services, she was the first person he called. "These thugs from the secret police wouldn't give us their IDs," he says. "So Karinna takes her cell phone and clicks their pictures. The woman is completely fearless. And there's nothing that scares these people more than someone who is fearless, someone who puts principle above safety or social standing."

Mr. Amsterdam's story is a testament to the courage and tenacity of a woman in the face of a regime whose threats must never be taken lightly. One wonders whether Condoleezza Rice, now in Moscow to meet with Mr. Putin, can show if she's made of the same stuff. Raising Ms. Moskalenko's case would be a start.

source (http://www.robertamsterdam.com/2007/05/nobody_is_untouchable_karinna.htm)


Karinna Moskalenko Interview on Echo Moskvy

As soon as she landed in Moscow on February 7 after her ordeal in Chita airport earlier that day, Mikhail Khodorkovsky's lawyer Karinna Moskalenko rushed to the "Echo Moskvy" radio station to give an exclusive interview on what had just happened with her, including the details over the documents the procuracy general tried to force her to sign under duress.

RA.com's translator has given us the entire transcript of the interview, available for download here.

Here are the answers to first few questions:
ECHO: Hello. Karinna Moskalenko, lawyer for Mikhail Khodorkovsky

MOSKALENKO: The only thing that absolves me is that I came to you right from the airport.

ECHO: Oh come now, there is much that absolves you. We are not those who intend to accuse or adjudge you for something.

MOSKALENKO: You don't say!

ECHO: Please, tell us everything in the order it happened. Because we're already getting questions from listeners. First the basic facts. What happened there? What did they force you to sign.

MOSKALENKO: First a small preamble. I consider that there are exactly two serious problems with respect to this case. One problem is the Procuracy General's. The Procuracy-General doesn't under any circumstances want that these, as we say, mad, absurd, groundless (to say it more diplomatically) charges become known to our population. They've told our population that he's guilty of grave crimes, but they don't want to say what these crimes consist of. They don't want to give us the opportunity to refute them rationally.

ECHO: What do you mean, they don't want? They named the articles [of the Criminal Code under which Khodorkovsky has been charged].

MOSKALENKO: Yes.

ECHO: Theft plus laundering.

MOSKALENKO: You said that, not I.

ECHO: I said that, but illiterately.

MOSKALENKO: No, you said what they said illiterately, they accused him before all of Russia. And now we want to tell all of Russia from what substitutions - that's what I call it - these charges are put together. But they're not letting us. How can you keep lawyers from doing this? They're free people. In a free, democratic country. In that case you need to artificially introduce some kind of prohibition. The prohibition is set forth in the code of criminal procedure for a specific category of cases, and when the secrecy of the investigation demands the silence of the participants in the processes, it gives the opportunity to obtain a signature of non-disclosure of the data of the investigation. It is rather difficult to fight against this; Article 310 about criminal liability for this act is quite vague. It really ought to be given some thought in the context of the constitutionality of this norm; indeed, to demand through the Constitutional Court. But there's no time. For us, for the defense. They're already now starting to press us, indeed press us this way: It would seem that it is within their capability to force us to sign [a non-disclosure statement] with respect to the case for which we have been invited to Chita. And, in general, to do so at least lawfully, at least creating the appearance of the law, let's put it that way. But what do they do? They make a substitution. They say: Here, sign that you won't disclose information with respect to case number - and there we notice a long number that we have never seen before.

ECHO: This is an unknown [case] number?

MOSKALENKO: An unknown number. But there must be a dozen of these numbers, probably. Not only did we not know about this number, we were warned and invited to the city of Chita with respect to another case number that was known to us. And we came. But here they're telling us: not knowing what, not knowing about what, sign here that you will not disclose this. But my friends, I don't know what it is I'm not supposed to be disclosing. This is simple human logic talking: Karinna, wait. You're not signing about yourself; the man you are defending is behind you. You have a duty, this is your professional duty, to act in his best interests. If they shut your mouth in the case about which you don't even know what it's even about, then you'll not only cause yourself harm, you might even accidentally find yourself criminally liable. Because there won't be any delays at the Procuracy-General. They've been threatening me a long time. If you recall, in this very studio in the next room we talked about how they've been promising for a long time to take away my high calling of "advocate" [i.e. disbar me] which it was not they who had given me. And here, can you imagine, criminal liability plain and simple. Signing a document obliging me not to leave town and various frightening bloody boys. And so, in order not to do this, in order not to cause harm to myself as a lawyer, because I'm needed in the case after all, and not to cause harm to my client, because, in my opinion, he's already had so much harm caused to him anywhere and everywhere that you've simply got to take pity on the person. And I decide for myself: I am not going to sign a document that in essence represents a counterfeit document. Fabricated. And I state this position, I state it yesterday, on the 5th, and Yuri Markovich Schmidt states pretty much the same thing, that this case number is unknown to us, and we can't sign. On the 6th they don't touch us with this. Although we're being taken around practically like a prisoner convoy, because those same convoy guards who escorted us into the security zone don't give us the opportunity to go out onto the street, but demand that we go to through to the chief of the institution. The chief of the institution has nothing against us. This is a calm, decent lieutenant-colonel person. But there we meet the investigative group, which, firstly, is running around like it owns the place, there in the investigative isolator. You remember how much we fought for the independence of the penitentiary system from the organs of investigation. So, we lost, becasue we had somehow managed to attain this for them, but they absolutely don't know how to hold on to their independence in their own hands. They're walking around like servant girls, serving the interests of the Procuracy-General. And not even legitimate interests of the Procuracy, I might add. The Procuracy-General is in command there, step up here, put your signature there. Sign here to receive this. We say: Excuse us, but maybe after all you'll do this not after 6 PM in the evening, someplace in some office, where we can have a seat and review the documents. In general, the character of the documents is incorrect. Let's discuss. You put your signature right there or we'll file a report right now that you're refusing to sign. Okay, file away, no problem, you've already filed so many anyway.

ECHO: And what's this?

MOSKALENKO: That we are acting wrongfully and are disturbing the conduction of their actions with respect to taking signatures from us. So that's how it all was. We were escorted there, we spent some time there, eventually did get copies of these document, eventually they filed, probably, some kind of papers about how we're nothing but a bunch of refuseniks. And that seemed to be the end of that. And in the evening I get a call from an investigator, a lady, she's sweet, she always behaves so daintily and politely, she says: so you're leaving tomorrow at 9:30. Okay, everything's clear. I tell her at this time that I've got a seriously ill child, that I have already finished work with my client. I also add that he's already written that he does not need my participation in these actions, I'm going to continue work on my way with the European Court. So I say, as they say, have a nice stay.

ECHO: By the way, how are things there?

MOSKALENKO: That's no "by the way" question. Let's get to the end of one question. So, yes, she says: I'll call you back. And she calls me back in a very bizarre manner. The littele bell rang today at 8 in the morning, when they came up to me after passing through security, I finally got to the Chita airport, that is by car. After going through all kinds of screenings. Shoes off, overcoat off, without suitcase, with suitcase, without purse, with purse. They went through everything, even when they had doubts, I say: I'd better open the suitcase for you. Everything was very polite.

source (http://www.robertamsterdam.com/2007/02/karinna_moskalenko_interview_o.htm)

[Mamont]

Switek, she's an advocate of Garry Kasparov. I think that's enough. If not - look up her clients. So in other words, you're again way off.

[Flamming_Python]

Carefull quoting Echo Moskvy. You do know that it's "state-controlled media" owned by Gazprom right Switek? :)

[Russian_dude]

It's easy and PC these days to be anti-Russian. Doesn't take much of a spine. How about publishing some more Mohhamed cartoons to test that? Or do some camel riders in the Waziristan scare Europe?

[Switek]

Law is law, and its function is, among others, to protect every citizen from different kind of abuses made by other people, institutions and a state itself.

Being honest this also concerns my country, whwre is still too much different abuses, but we have free media and such cases are quickly widely known. Implementing of rules of law is a hard way, but feasible. In numbers of complaints send by citizens to European Justice Court poles are on first place among all EU members. This proves that even here some things don't run properly.

Could anyone call me anti Polish?

[Horizon]

It's easy and PC these days to be anti-Russian. Doesn't take much of a spine. How about publishing some more Mohhamed cartoons to test that? Or do some camel riders in the Waziristan scare Europe?

You surely mean anti-tyranny, anti-police-state??

[Russian_dude]

You can say the same thing about France. Sarko le facho!!!! (kidding I love Sarko). But I find it funny when people who have never been to Russia have strong opinions about it.

Now I know a lot of people in Russia and nobody is suffering from "tyranny". And I can as easily and in many cases MORE easily express my opinions in Russia then in the West. Especially all this PC crap.

[tsuri]

and in many cases MORE easily express my opinions in Russia then in the West.
Especially if you are a gay opponent of Putin who advocates chechnyan independence.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I love these neocon inspired thread titles

Don't people realize that it's only the merkins who have a spine :roll:

[Ddavid]

Well, I'd add:
- Ukraine cut off from the oil supplies 2005/2006
Just in your troubled mind. Russia stopped to subsidize oil for Ukraine and sell it now at market price.


- Belarus blackmailed by the oil price which went through the roof 2006/2007, thus cutting off Germany and Poland.
Who care, Belarus is a russian puppet, its ruler being persona non grata in West Europe. There are several other pipelines to Poland and Germany.


- open threats to Estonia to cut off diplomatic ties and an economic embargo
Dismantling Lenine statue is one thing, rehabilition of nazism is something else. I don't get why Germany support them. Well, actually I know it's the same old nostalgic diplomatic blunder.

[Ddavid]

Especially if you are a gay opponent of Putin who advocates chechnyan independence.

Try supporting iraquies insurgents here and in UK, and you will get the same result.

[Flamming_Python]

Who care, Belarus is a russian puppet, its ruler being persona non grata in West Europe. There are several other pipelines to Poland and Germany.


Belarus is not exactly a puppet. Lukashenko has enough power in the country to avoid such a situation. The country co-operates a lot with Russia, but is quite isolated otherwise.

[Ddavid]

Isolated is the word. Actually Belarus and a few other states in caucasus are anachronisms.