Solution For Terror Attacks On Israel [Archive]

Player

05-19-2007, 05:49 AM

Cut off their power

If Palestinians continue to fire rockets, they should sit in the dark

Gilad Sharon
Published: 05.17.07, 20:34 / Israel Opinion (http://www.ynetnews.com/home/0,7340,L-3084,00.html)

It's another day of Qassam rocket fire on Sderot and Gaza-region communities - there are wounded civilians, frightened children, closed schools and kindergartens.

Everyone agrees - it is an insufferable situation. The problem lies in the method of this despicable war, modern terror, whose rotten teeth are sharp and painful, while at the same time faceless. There isn't really a "target bank" that can be hit to halt it.

Terror is alive and kicking and hiding among civilian populations, and there is no desire or justification on our part to strike at it. And thus we are witnessing more of the same: Sisyphean attempts to strike at terrorists hiding among and behind civilians who are not involved in acts of terror. It's like trying to get rid of a dog's fleas by using tweezers – it simply doesn't work.

The political establishment is fearful - and rightfully so - of the entanglement that would follow conquering the Gaza Strip, the harming of civilians, and international pressure. On the other hand, the current situation cannot continue. So what should be done? Clearly, there is no good alternative. In this case the least worst option should be selected.

Because of the nature of terror, which hides among civilian populations, the solution would entail harming this population to some degree, as it shields terror, thus undermining its legitimacy to operate. The strike should be such that it is not fatal but very painful.

Pull the plug

It appears that in face of the limitations outlined here, cutting off the power supply in the Gaza Strip in response to acts of terror is what is required – a power cut of five minutes after the first Qassam rocket, 15 minutes after the second, and half a day after the 10th. We cannot and nor do we want to pull out every despicable terrorist from his hole, but we can pull the plug.

It is of course impossible to live without electricity nowadays, but it is also impossible to continue living the way Sderot residents are living.

It's up to them – the ball is in their court. If they fire, they'll sit in the dark; if they don't fire they can watch TV. This is the court where we have the upper hand and that's where we'll take it.

It also films better than civilians wounded by bombings; what's more, the Palestinians are firing at the Israeli power stations supplying them electricity. We should provide generators for their hospitals, but the rest can sit in the dark. Thus, we shall not endanger our troops, we shall not risk hurting civilians, and Gaza residents who are aiding terror will pay a very inconvenient price, but the type that doesn't kill.

Let's hope the political leadership here will try to be flexible in its thinking and not remain stagnated. It is easier to explain power cuts in Gaza to the world than to explain a takeover of the Strip and the harming of civilians.

http://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer2/20022007/1112228/2_wh.jpg
Damaged by rockets Sderot school

http://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer2/20022007/1113866/_MG_0427_wa.jpg
Damaged by rockets Sderot Synagogue

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3401238,00.html

lider_r

05-19-2007, 06:27 AM

Moledet

05-19-2007, 07:27 AM

As long as rockets are hitting our cities due to our removal of settlers from Gaza strip (before the disengagement there were much less missiles hitting behind the green line), no settler will be removed from Judah and Samaria.

BRAVEHEART

05-19-2007, 07:38 AM

as long as Isrteal continue opressing people there it won't stop!

Moledet

05-19-2007, 07:45 AM

As long as there are illegal armed groups the oppression won't stop...this can go for ever.

It will never stop, not even when they will take over all of Israel and murder us all. Because then they'll want Europe and what was part of the Muslim empire. They are controlled by terror organizations and for these organizations peace means the end of power. So they will always find something to incite the population against.

DeltaWhisky58

05-19-2007, 08:00 AM

as long as Isrteal continue opressing people there it won't stop!

BRAVEHEART only joined us this morning - he has posted five times - three of these were too offensive to remain on the board, the other two are the one above and a similarly offensive post elsewhere - he has now left us.

Player

05-19-2007, 08:36 AM

as long as Isrteal continue opressing people there it won't stop!

You're far from even spelling Israel properly which proves how much you know about the conflict, so what did make you say this about Israel?

You folks can guess it yourself.

Which btw one of the reasons and a good example why there won't be peace any time soon.

Just sad.

Vorian

05-19-2007, 09:58 AM

until the israeli settlers are removed from the illegal colonies in the westbank then the tit for tat killings aint gonna stop

cutting off power to the gaza strip will just make palestinians hate israelis even more and probably give militants even more recruits

Exactly. And cutting off electricity doesn't mean no tv, but no fridges or air-conditions (or whatever cheaper cooling device). This would mean death for many old people during the summer. Can't see how it helps winning palestinian hearts and minds.

TR1

05-19-2007, 10:23 AM

Slightly off topic, but what happened to Olmert proposing that all the people of Palestanian and Lebanese origin would be released from Israeli detainment in trade for the missing Israeli soldiers?

Durandal

05-19-2007, 10:28 AM

Player

05-19-2007, 10:31 AM

Exactly. And cutting off electricity doesn't mean no tv, but no fridges or air-conditions (or whatever cheaper cooling device). This would mean death for many old people during the summer. Can't see how it helps winning palestinian hearts and minds.

Oh, but rocket attacks on Israeli towns on daily basis doesn't mean death right?

Yes, cutting off electricity means no fridges and air conditions for them as long as they are terrorising our towns which include schools, kindergardens etc (what you should know).

We don't need to win Palestinian hearts and minds, we need security for our civilians. And if it will mean no electricity for them, they will have to stop their terror attacks on Israeli towns, is it that hard?

Electricity is something very important for them, removing it will maybe make peace in the region for a while. And by peace I mean safety for Israeli civilians and for Palestinians as well.

Dakota435

05-19-2007, 12:18 PM

Slightly off topic, but what happened to Olmert proposing that all the people of Palestanian and Lebanese origin would be released from Israeli detainment in trade for the missing Israeli soldiers?

Yup, rewarding kidnappers. That would be about the stupidest thing they could possibly do.

Dakota435

05-19-2007, 12:21 PM

until the israeli settlers are removed from the illegal colonies in the westbank then the tit for tat killings aint gonna stop

cutting off power to the gaza strip will just make palestinians hate israelis even more and probably give militants even more recruits

The hate is no stronger or weaker than it was in 1947. The hate is part of their being, and there is nothing the Israelis can do, no concession they can make, to stop it short of one giant mass suicide.

Ivan le Fou

05-19-2007, 12:37 PM

It is sad to say that, anyway, innocents people are always paying instead of those who are responsible.

I mean, people who die beacause of rockets are civilians and thoe who will die because of the cutting off the power are also civilians.

Vicious circle.

Dasein

05-19-2007, 02:22 PM

Collective punishment of the Palestinian people would only serve to undermine Israel's position, weaken what little international support they have left and vindicate those who are critical of Israel's methods. Israel gains nothing from such tactics - we've seen other countries try collective punishment, and it tends to fail spectacularly.

There are tactics that work - the targetted killing of Hamas leadership, for example, proved quite effective, and so long as it is done without inflicting massive or indiscriminate civilian casualties, the benefits outweigh the costs.

Flagg

05-19-2007, 03:10 PM

http://ias.berkeley.edu/orias/2003/peace/myraphotos/kidslg.JPG

http://www.kids-with-cameras.org/jerusalem/images/israeli-kids.jpg

I just figure I would post these...

My wife and I have begun our adoption process. So, I haven't been so quick to jump on the "WE MUST MAKE THEM PAY!" band wagon.

Good luck and congrats to you and the missus!

Keep us up to speed with how things go, my wife and I are thinking IF we have a third...to ensure a girl we were maybe thinking adoption.

On a related note...any idea if that photo with the kiddies carrying the cameras had anything to do with that project I heard of picking an equal number of Israeli/Palestinian kiddies to snap photos from their perspectives?

imohammed2

05-19-2007, 03:19 PM

The hate is no stronger or weaker than it was in 1947. The hate is part of their being, and there is nothing the Israelis can do, no concession they can make, to stop it short of one giant mass suicide.

dude you better not be alluding to masada :bash:

kamaz

05-19-2007, 03:45 PM

as long as Isrteal continue opressing people there it won't stop!

Aye, fight and you may die, run, and you'll live... at least for a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willin' to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take... OUR FREEDOM!

hurrrahhhh!!!! lol. the western useful idiots still think its about 'oppression' and 'occupation'. You can hit a dog with a shoe 10 times, and he's still gona wag his tail.

IDF_TANKER

05-19-2007, 04:39 PM

Cutting power is stupid. Beside shortly lasting joy of revenge it will not do any good for us - Hamas doesn't really need electricity to launch Qassams. Last time we bombed the transformer station it simply didn't help, only made the life of Gazans more miserable. All this "electiricity cutting" talking is nothing more outcry of a hurt nation seeking for revenge. I hope our PM will not be stupid enough to consider this little lynch to please raving masses in order to improve his shaken(nonexisting actually) popularity.

the39steps

05-19-2007, 05:23 PM

Cutting power will make Israel look like bullies on the international stage. All the press will focus on are the hospitals where people die from heatstroke or lack of power to hospital equipment. Children and the elderly will be the victims of this. The palestinians will become enraged at this inhuman act and their terrorist groups will have a lot more supporters and volunteers against Israel.

It's a poor tactic that will not hit the required targets, namely those evil sods lauching the rockets. Collective punishment has never worked.

You need targeted elimination of bomb makers and rocket launchers. Its a slow (but effective) process but it will not alienate Israel from the rest of the world.

And if anyone thinks I'm talking crap, look at last years bombing of Lebanon. All that combat and the reason for it (the return of the kidnapped soldiers) was not achieved.

But then, I don't live in Israel and have to put up with the endless rocket attacks, so its very easy for me to say all this.

Rictor

05-19-2007, 05:51 PM

Brilliant plan. Look at how lack of power has made the people of Baghdad all docile and eager to talk peace. Let's copy that success story!

While I can appreciate Israel's need to stop Qassam fire into its cities, cutting off power won't accomplish anything. It will, at best, bring short-term success and in the long-term make the situation even worse, and at worst fail to bring even a short-term let-up in rocket fire.

Macabi

05-19-2007, 06:55 PM

According to all the photo's and footage going around, armed militants are training, walking in the streets and driving around all the time. They are all militairy targets.
Israel has the drones to find them.
I don't understand why the IDF/IAF doesn't just start taking out every single armed militants in sight. All militants pose a threat to Israel and their own population, just shut them up.

-DarthMaul-

05-19-2007, 07:04 PM

both sides will never get it right. Israelis will never admitt they are qrong, and will never pull out of the west bank. Palastenians also will never ever admitt they are wrong and will never stop suicide bombing or launching rockets towards israeli civilians.

seriously is this some kind of joke. no one side is right. But they are BOTH very WRONG.

Calanen

05-19-2007, 07:57 PM

I have no problem with 'All's fair etc', but cutting off the power I think will probably just harm the civilian population, terrorists have access to all resources including generators, because they can take whatever they want with force.

The other thing is terrorists dont care if innocent people die or suffer - look at all of the deaths in Iraq that are Iraqi on Iraqi. Cutting power might seem like you can say hey something is being done, but I don't think it would be effective at changing anything. I don't know how the power grid works, but perhaps cutting off power to certain buildings or organisations might work a bit better.

SonKev

05-19-2007, 09:48 PM

God bless Israel

Im praying for you guys all the time <3

Rakki

05-19-2007, 09:55 PM

Well, collective punishment is illegal according to Geneva Convention and all that.

What about Collective Privileges? Talk with the local residents. Tell them if there are no attacks from their area for say, 3 months, then Israel will build and fund a swimming pool or some other form of public infrastructure. If an attack occurs, then that infrastructure is shut down/turned off. It can even be simple things - a sweep through the region to clean up all the garbage as a gesture of good will.

No attacks for 6 months, then they'll get sewage works done. Basically, the longer there aren't any attacks from their area, the more "permanent" the infrastructure works are.

The residents can then compare it with what they are getting from the Hamas/Fatah whatever. No attacks = bonus. Attacks = garbage. Also promise them that if Israel gets early warning on pending attacks from their area then everything possible would be done to stop that attack (so the residents can keep their privileges)

The next step beyond that would be to allow the local residents to "purchase" that infrastructure and take ownership of it - either through a nominal cash payment or through "peace credits". The basic idea is to set up a pseudo economy where the residents use "peace" to pay for infrastructure that they can "own". So it then becomes in everyone's interest to make as much "credit" as possible to improve their living conditions and keep the militants from disrupting the arrangement....

LEGEND

05-19-2007, 11:30 PM

Dakota435

05-19-2007, 11:42 PM

dude you better not be alluding to masada :bash:

Hadn't occurred to me.

What I mean is the Paleos and their crowd will not be happy until Israel is gone.

It's not a matter of misunderstanding. The stuff that Palestinian children are indoctrinated with in the PA educational system is truly sick.

TR1

05-19-2007, 11:42 PM

Yup, rewarding kidnappers. That would be about the stupidest thing they could possibly do.
yeah, releasing hundreds of prisoners, most of them completely innocent and held without access to fair trial is soooo stupid......

Danik

05-19-2007, 11:48 PM

yeah, releasing hundreds of prisoners, most of them completely innocent and held without access to fair trial is soooo stupid......

You know this because you are a lawyer in Israel I assume and have analysed evidence and testimony and the like of course.

PS. Its not the cute little innocent wrongfully accused wrong place wrong time I swear the pot is not mine officer bystanders they want.

-DarthMaul-

05-19-2007, 11:49 PM

How is this different from someone in your city blowing lets say a bus up, then demanding a million dollars every month not to blow anything else up?
This is exactly what terrorism is.

Rewardsing is DIFFERENT than giving in to terror. This would be some kind of deal basically you be nice, and we'll help you stand up your country..dont and we'll leave you rot[well you already are, and you're helping them rot].

just maybe trying to be nice for once ;) bu tno one wants to give it a chance as I said before

Danik

05-19-2007, 11:51 PM

Rewardsing is DIFFERENT than giving in to terror. This would be some kind of deal basically you be nice, and we'll help you stand up your country..dont and we'll leave you rot[well you already are, and you're helping them rot].

just maybe trying to be nice for once ;) bu tno one wants to give it a chance as I said before

Its always us having to be nice. Wether its US,Uk, or Israel. Hows about they try to be nice for once. Its very easy. Instead of blowing things up, you dont blow things up.

LEGEND

05-19-2007, 11:59 PM

Rewardsing is DIFFERENT than giving in to terror. This would be some kind of deal basically you be nice, and we'll help you stand up your country..dont and we'll leave you rot[well you already are, and you're helping them rot].

just maybe trying to be nice for once ;) bu tno one wants to give it a chance as I said before

How about we give you Gaza back and you dont shoot rockets at us? How about we give you south lebanon back and you stop terrorizing us? hmm i think they tried it. This is middle east buddy, its not teaching your cat to do tricks for food.

-DarthMaul-

05-20-2007, 12:03 AM

How about we give you Gaza back and you dont shoot rockets at us? How about we give you south lebanon back and you stop terrorizing us? hmm i think they tried it. This is middle east buddy, its not teaching your cat to do tricks for food.

Giving Gaza back kinda worked AGAINST the Palastenians' benefit by the looks of it. Seriously look at whats happened since it being giving back. You give them back sh*t land, but you keep on taking more WEST Bank.(well I dont want this thread to turn into a flame or political discussion because these threads end the same way on every single forum, with no agreement, Ive heard your arguments and youve hear dmine, even the ones we havent said yet, we all know what wer eognna say next)

LEGEND

05-20-2007, 12:12 AM

Giving Gaza back kinda worked AGAINST the Palastenians' benefit by the looks of it. Seriously look at whats happened since it being giving back. You give them back sh*t land, but you keep on taking more WEST Bank.(well I dont want this thread to turn into a flame or political discussion because these threads end the same way on every single forum, with no agreement, Ive heard your arguments and youve hear dmine, even the ones we havent said yet, we all know what wer eognna say next)

So you are blaming Israel on whats going on in Gaza right now? Didn't you say rewarding is good? Have you been to Gaza or West Bank, how do you decide on whats "sh*tland" and whats not? Just an fyi Gaza's settler communities were prime farmland before the pullout with fields and greenhouses. And no none of that was destroyed by Israel during the pullout, it was destroyed by the palestinians after the pullout.

TR1

05-20-2007, 12:53 AM

You know this because you are a lawyer in Israel I assume and have analysed evidence and testimony and the like of course.

PS. Its not the cute little innocent wrongfully accused wrong place wrong time I swear the pot is not mine officer bystanders they want.

No ****.

You are delusional however if you think Israel only holds people who have commited proven terrorist activities.

LEGEND

05-20-2007, 12:56 AM

No ****.

You are delusional however if you think Israel only holds people who have commited proven terrorist activities.

What makes you say that?

TR1

05-20-2007, 01:04 AM

What makes you say that?

I have trouble picturing Israel as an angel like some members here think........plus had they actually been convicted terror suspects i doubt Olmert would have even considreed trading them for the captured soldiers.

LEGEND

05-20-2007, 01:14 AM

I have trouble picturing Israel as an angel like some members here think........plus had they actually been convicted terror suspects i doubt Olmert would have even considreed trading them for the captured soldiers.

There are different degrees of guilt, those who have blood on their hands will not be released or exchanged. Tell me why would Israel want to put those who are not guilt into prisons where they have to be fed, clothed, educated, provided with medical care. In some other countries suspects simply disappear, out of sight out of mind...

IDF_TANKER

05-20-2007, 03:36 AM

yeah, releasing hundreds of prisoners, most of them completely innocent and held without access to fair trial is soooo stupid......

About 17% of the terror victims are killed by the ex-prisoners released as a result of these deals. Believe it or not, we actually don't enjoy keeping thousands of people on our tax money, we have a damn good reason for that.

TR1

05-20-2007, 03:42 AM

Snoshi

05-20-2007, 03:43 AM

Giving Gaza back kinda worked AGAINST the Palastenians' benefit by the looks of it. Seriously look at whats happened since it being giving back. You give them back sh*t land, but you keep on taking more WEST Bank.(well I dont want this thread to turn into a flame or political discussion because these threads end the same way on every single forum, with no agreement, Ive heard your arguments and youve hear dmine, even the ones we havent said yet, we all know what wer eognna say next)

Why should we give them west bank? First, its not their land. 2nd After what happened in Gaza there wont be a Palestinian state in a very long time

Snoshi

05-20-2007, 03:44 AM

yeah, releasing hundreds of prisoners, most of them completely innocent and held without access to fair trial is soooo stupid......

And where is your source?

lider_r

05-20-2007, 03:53 AM

About 17% of the terror victims are killed by the ex-prisoners released as a result of these deals. Believe it or not, we actually don't enjoy keeping thousands of people on our tax money, we have a damn good reason for that.

its ok its mostly US tax dollars funding it anyway

the quest by the jewish fundamentalists to grab as much land as possible, regardless of who lives there already, is also helped in part by US taxpayers.

I don't approve of violence on either side, but there are some people in Israel who are just as wacky and fundamentalist as the nutters amidst the ranks of the palestinian militant factions.

There is a reason why the palestinians continue their campaign of violence against the Israeli's (its not something i support) and sure, some want Israel to be wiped off the map altogether, but some just want their homes back which they were illegally thrown out of.

ase290406

05-20-2007, 04:28 AM

If the Pali's really wanted peace, we would see terrorists in Gaza disarming and returning to civilian life. That's because in Gaza the 1967 borders have been achieved. And what was the Palestinian answer to us destroing our own communities, and seeing the Pali's burn down and dance on the ruins of our Synagogues? What if we would burn down Mosques in Haifa just because it's Jewish land?

The Paliestinians elected Hamas, Hamas fires rockets, and helps kidnap a soldier into Gaza. That's a very big hint for "We want you back, we have no one to fight but ourselfs now". And we do see Palestinians fighting each other almost every day.

Macabi

05-20-2007, 04:51 AM

For **** sake. Every time a Topic on Israel is opened, it goes back to the the whole conflict. Who is good/bad/why/who/when.

All the Palestinians have to do is stop the terror against Israel. Israel gave back the Gaza strip as a start. Still they are firing rockets at Israel. How hard can it be, realise the difterence between the Palestinians that really want the WHOLE of Israel back and the ones that want the '67 line back.
All they have to do is stop terror, thats all that is necesary to start talking and negotiating land. How hard can it be.
It has no use to argue over who is wrong, just stop te terror en Israel will satisfy them.

lider_r

05-20-2007, 05:57 AM

So israel should be able to do whatever it wants and if anybody disagrees they are a terrorist? The fact the westbank settlements haven't been stopped makes palestinians even more impatient and frustrated and makes them turn to loonbags like Hamas who say 'ok we'll destroy the lot then'. If the violence stopped tommorow then i hardly doubt the expansion of jewish colonies would stop.

Sorry, but Israel has to abide by the laws every other country abides by.

If France were to suddenly decide to set up french settlements inside the border regions of Spain what do you think would happen?

Macabi

05-20-2007, 06:01 AM

So israel should be able to do whatever it wants and if anybody disagrees they are a terrorist?

Sorry, but Israel has to abide by the laws every other country abides by.

If France were to suddenly decide to set up french settlements inside the border regions of Spain what do you think would happen?

Stop putting words in my mouth. Where did I say that? Nowhere.

Stop making idiotic comparisons with France etc., you just can't compare such situations.

My point is that, all the Palestinians have to do, is stop terror against Israel. When the terror ends there is no use of checkpoints or militairy actions. Think about that. It's logic.

Moledet

05-20-2007, 06:14 AM

Giving Gaza back kinda worked AGAINST the Palastenians' benefit by the looks of it. Seriously look at whats happened since it being giving back. You give them back sh*t land, but you keep on taking more WEST Bank.(well I dont want this thread to turn into a flame or political discussion because these threads end the same way on every single forum, with no agreement, Ive heard your arguments and youve hear dmine, even the ones we havent said yet, we all know what wer eognna say next)
No, we didn't take more West Bank land, the opposite is true.
Part of the disengagement plan was giving a part of the west bank to the PA, they received an area 3 times larger than Gaza strip in the west bank where Homesh and Sa-Nur settlements and others used to be.

Moledet

05-20-2007, 06:22 AM

its ok its mostly US tax dollars funding it anyway

the quest by the jewish fundamentalists to grab as much land as possible, regardless of who lives there already, is also helped in part by US taxpayers.

I wonder how 2.3$ billion in annual military aid funds everything in Israel. Also, it seems to fund only the "evil" things, maybe it's just your imagination?

IsraDani

05-20-2007, 06:39 AM

I wonder how 2.3$ billion in annual military aid funds everything in Israel. Also, it seems to fund only the "evil" things, maybe it's just your imagination?

without consider that similar funds are given to many other (arab) states..

-DarthMaul-

05-20-2007, 06:41 AM

Why should we give them west bank? First, its not their land. 2nd After what happened in Gaza there wont be a Palestinian state in a very long time

Wtf? where did you get this from? your own damned country even SIGNED a bunch of DEALS that were suposed to keep the West Bank for the Palastenians. But it seems like Israel never ever follows through with any of its treaties it signs.

You guys make it sound like if they put down thier arms then thier country will simply prosper...come on have you seen the damned place? That is the ****tiest country in the whole wide world! Hell the poorest african countries can pull it off better than them. They have the worst living standards in the world. Looks like it to me, that they will never recupirate from thier poverty.

But as I said in my other post.....we know each other's arguments real well, and what to rebuttle with, until it gets heated up, then lock...so we can keep on discussing...or we dont have to waste our time.

lider_r

05-20-2007, 07:16 AM

My point is that, all the Palestinians have to do, is stop terror against Israel. When the terror ends there is no use of checkpoints or militairy actions. Think about that. It's logic.

And then the jewish westbank colony expansion will cease and all remaining colonies be removed?

I find that to be a highly unlikely scenario.

Moledet

05-20-2007, 07:17 AM

Seems like you don't know much about the territories. They aren't even close to the worse living conditions in the world.
Hell, they even have better living conditions than the average Egyptian citizen although the rank lowers points for bad personal security situation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#endnote_2
Palestinian territories are ranked as 99 (out of 177), needless to say that your "rebuilt" Iraq and Afghanistan aren't even ranked.

If they had better personal safety they could be ranked way higher (and so could Israel), over most Arab countries.

ase290406

05-20-2007, 07:39 AM

@DarthMaul- Just to explain why he said it was our land. There are numerous historical and arhiological evidences that show an acient Jewish communities in the Judea and Samaria (West Bank). The archiological evidence pre-dates Islam and the arrival of the Arabs form the Arabian peninsula. For example look here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shalom_Al_Israel_synagogue

For many Israelis this is the proof that we gave up Jewish land for peace in Oslo. As opposed to giving back Arab land, which means that Jews have no historical rights in Judea and Samaria. Obviosly anyone who recognizes that Jews have such rights, will find it hard to call the Jewish precense "occupation", because you can't occupy your own homeland.

Snoshi

05-20-2007, 07:52 AM

And then the jewish westbank colony expansion will cease and all remaining colonies be removed?

I find that to be a highly unlikely scenario.

Why should we remove settelments from West Bank? What prupose will it serve us? We gave Gaza and look what we got.

NimDod

05-20-2007, 07:53 AM

That is the ****tiest country in the whole wide world! Hell the poorest african countries can pull it off better than them. They have the worst living standards in the world. Looks like it to me, that they will never recupirate from thier poverty.
Ever wondered what happened to the Billions they recived from the EU and the US all those years?

check out the "Today's Pix - Thursday, May 16 th, 2007" thread:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=112133
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r173/lancero_2007/maio/maio2/20070516113655ENLUS0101024111793154.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r173/lancero_2007/maio/maio2/20070516113721ENLUS0101024211793154.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r173/lancero_2007/maio/maio2/20070516121922ENLUS0101029611793179.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r173/lancero_2007/maio/maio2/20070516113815ENLUS0101024311793154.jpg

MIDEAST ISRAEL PALESTINIANS -epa01010241 A Fatah masked militant inspects the house of the Palestinian. Major. General Rashid Abu Shbak. the head of preventive security after it was attacked by Hamas militants in Tal al Hawa area in Gaza City, 16 May 2007. Five body gaurds of Abu Shbak were killed during the battle with Hamas militants outside the house EPA/MOHAMMED SABER

mas-36

05-20-2007, 08:29 AM

Durandal

05-20-2007, 08:32 AM

Good luck and congrats to you and the missus!

Keep us up to speed with how things go, my wife and I are thinking IF we have a third...to ensure a girl we were maybe thinking adoption.

On a related note...any idea if that photo with the kiddies carrying the cameras had anything to do with that project I heard of picking an equal number of Israeli/Palestinian kiddies to snap photos from their perspectives?

Not too sure if its the same thing.

This group is "Kids with Cameras" here is some more info:

Zana and co-director Ross Kauffman were awarded grants from the Sundance Institute, the Jerome Foundation, and the New York State Council on the Arts for their film, "Born into Brothels," a feature documentary about the children of Calcutta's prostitutes. In 2002 Zana created Kids with Cameras, a non-profit organization to empower marginalized children through learning the art of photography.

Durandal

05-20-2007, 08:36 AM

The way I look at it, if Israel cuts power we make them actually PAY for the armaments we ship 'em and cut off funding.

Israel seems pretty confident they have everything in hand so I see little need to pump money into the country like it was some African nation in need of AIDS and malaria money.

Moledet

05-20-2007, 08:40 AM

Question:

As stupid as it is to see the Palestinians fighting eachother, and squandering valuable opportunities yet again, how is this bad for Israel? If the Palis are fighting eachother, are there fewer attacks on Israelis than there would be during the Intifata times?

There are a lot more rocket attacks, tens of rockets are falling every day on Sderot and civilians are wounded on a daily basis.

My solution: Force the Palestinians to reconcile by using geography against them. Give Gaza independence, thus setting off a window of opportunity for people in Gaza to distance themselves politically, socially, and perhaps even culturally from the West Bank. This may result in the Palestinian authorities to realize that if they do not move forward, their people (or at least some of them) may move forward without them, and permanently lose access to the sea.
But Gaza strip is the problematic area. There is no internal fighting in the West Bank and there aren't many IDF operations either. Judah and Samaria is pretty calm right now. Due to IDF operations and constant presence the armed groups can not organize and create a large united faction that trains regularly like Hamas forces in Gaza strip.
The moment we will leave they will start building their own rockets and fire them to places that are a lot more sensitive than Sderot like Ben Gurion's international airport that is just a few kilometers from the Green line.

mas-36

05-20-2007, 08:46 AM

There are a lot more rocket attacks, tens of rockets are falling every day on Sderot and civilians are wounded on a daily basis.

But Gaza strip is the problematic area. There is no internal fighting in the West Bank and there aren't many IDF operations either. Judah and Samaria is pretty calm right now. Due to IDF operations and constant presence the armed groups can not organize and create a large united faction that trains regularly like Hamas forces in Gaza strip.
The moment we will leave they will start building their own rockets and fire them to places that are a lot more sensitive than Sderot like Ben Gurion's international airport that is just a few kilometers from the Green line.

Still, an opportunity could be made here. I would find out who in Gaza has had enough of this crap, and offer to help them set up a cabinet/government outside hamas-fatah. With political and economic incentives, this could force the Palis into deep thinking. Do they want their peoples to be split into two distinct cultures? One at peace and thriving and independent, and the other constantly fighting with eachother. Could be Hamas's worst nightmare.

lider_r

05-20-2007, 09:29 AM

Why should we remove settelments from West Bank? What prupose will it serve us? We gave Gaza and look what we got.

With that kind of logic if you steal something and give a portion of it back then the police should be satisfied with that and stop hassling you , right?

Snoshi

05-20-2007, 09:33 AM

With that kind of logic if you steal something and give a portion of it back then the police should be satisfied with that and stop hassling you , right?

Who stole what?

Player

05-20-2007, 09:36 AM

With that kind of logic if you steal something and give a portion of it back then the police should be satisfied with that and stop hassling you , right?

Palestinians (probably you too) claim that whole Israel is stolen, so giving them our lands is out of the question.

Snoshi

05-20-2007, 09:39 AM

Palestinians (probably you too) claim that whole Israel is stolen, so giving them our lands is out of the question.

Yep.. I dont get Palestinian logic.. Two countries were born in 1948... But they wasted the chance. They did the same thing in 67.. They should thank their arab brothers for help.

Also no Israeli government wont evacute WB without populations support. And they wont get the support aslong as palestinians act like they do now

Moledet

05-20-2007, 10:10 AM

Still, an opportunity could be made here. I would find out who in Gaza has had enough of this crap, and offer to help them set up a cabinet/government outside hamas-fatah. With political and economic incentives, this could force the Palis into deep thinking. Do they want their peoples to be split into two distinct cultures? One at peace and thriving and independent, and the other constantly fighting with eachother. Could be Hamas's worst nightmare.
You can't install a government without elections because it will be considered a puppets regime installed by the great Satan.
And a government can't survive without a strong military that will make sure the streets are safe. Since the Palestinian police only abide to Fatah than you can't have any government apart of Fatah. Problem is that Fatah is made of a bunch of corrupted leaders that take most of the money and use it to enlarge their Swiss bank accounts.

BTW, Palestinians have also started fighting in Lebanon. 24 dead in battles between Palestinians and the Lebanese army.

lider_r

05-20-2007, 10:56 AM

Palestinians (probably you too) claim that whole Israel is stolen, so giving them our lands is out of the question.

what is your claim to the land that justifies uprooting residents from their homes without consulting them first?

IvanIII

05-20-2007, 11:02 AM

God bless Palestinia and its brave people...

-DarthMaul-

05-20-2007, 11:25 AM

Palestinians (probably you too) claim that whole Israel is stolen, so giving them our lands is out of the question.

I definatly am not anti-semetic or anything..but no matter WHAT you went through, you did not serve better treatment than any other people in the world that were either massacred, genocide, tortured, terrorized, etc. And your military's action arent really showing th ebest of you either..as much as you claim self defense your always on top of things when it comes to killing civilians.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/index.html (my favourite link for this kind of statistics)

now...my previous post STILL says, that even the palastenians are wrong, and arent doing much to further thier peace, instead furthring violence against israelis civilians AND the,selves..I just find it stupid how people claim one side is completely right and absolved of wrong-doing (as in this instance israel)

Mr.Flint

05-20-2007, 12:34 PM

God bless Palestinia and its brave people...
Idiot:bash:

Why wont you go and bless Chechens? after all its nearly the same thing, and they love to support each othe :cantbeli:r

IDF_TANKER

05-20-2007, 12:44 PM

I definatly am not anti-semetic or anything..but no matter WHAT you went through, you did not serve better treatment than any other people in the world that were either massacred, genocide, tortured, terrorized, etc. And your military's action arent really showing th ebest of you either..as much as you claim self defense your always on top of things when it comes to killing civilians.

Who accused you of being antisemitic?! Who was talking about Holocaust(I presume that's what you are referring to)?! Don't even start with it. This has nothing to do with the topic of this thread or Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
Surely, there are a lot of stupid Israelis who bring these things up in the context(there were non so far on this thread), and there a lot even more stupid Israel "criticizers" who like to bring it up, although in a slightly different context(I hope you are not one of them).

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/index.html (my favourite link for this kind of statistics)

I like these statistics! I really do! There are always some colorful charts comparing how many children/citizens/whoever were killed on both sides. And everyone who looks at these charts immediately know who is a real sonofabitch here, this is so fvcking obvious - THE PALESTINIAN SIDE OF THE CHART IS MUCH HIGHER!! This kind of stupid simplistic perception of reality is just killing me. Like I'm supposed to feel bad that we lost less children than Palestinians?

Get it already into your head -this not a feud. This is not a vendetta. This not an "eye for eye, tooth for tooth" thing. We do not fight in Palestinian territories to even the scores. Military activity on the Palestinian territories has a goal of stopping terrorists. And the scale of this activity is proportional to their effort to hurt us, and not to the number of killed Israeli children.(You might want to go to this thread: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=112141&page=9 - we had some very intensive and long polemics about these things).

I wonder if there are somewhere on this site charts comparing the number of victims of 9/11 and the innocent Afgans killed during the last war. My guess would be - there are no. Do you know why? Because these numbers have nothing to do with each other!!!

And you've got to love the title from the site:"The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the world’s major sources of instability". How about shifting your eyes couple of inches right on the world map - towards Saudi Arabia.
I don't remember Americans ever started a war because of us. The current Iraqi war is the third one related to them. Not to mention them being the nest of worst kind of the Islamist ideology and terrorism. But this is a whole other topic...

now...my previous post STILL says, that even the palastenians are wrong, and arent doing much to further thier peace, instead furthring violence against israelis civilians AND the,selves..I just find it stupid how people claim one side is completely right and absolved of wrong-doing (as in this instance israel)

So why are you doing exactly this?

IvanIII

05-20-2007, 01:02 PM

I just love when people criticize Israel and apologize for it , becuz they are scared to be called antisemitic, it makes this forum so PRO-Iran:cantbeli:

frenchy

05-20-2007, 01:02 PM

Impossible to stop terror attacks, and it's the same thing in the whole world (Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Darfur, Filipinas, Pakistan, tchetchenia and so on). 80% of conflicts in the world find their source in islamist terrorism.

There will always be recruits to kill non-muslim people because of ideology. They are proud to die and go to Allah. They aren't afraid of death.
And when in our european countries, muslims will be in a majority, because of demography, perhaps it will be the same thing with suicide-bombings.

Fortunately, all muslims aren't terrorists.

Snoshi

05-20-2007, 01:24 PM

I just love when people criticize Israel and apologize for it , becuz they are scared to be called antisemitic, it makes this forum so PRO-Iran:cantbeli:

Critizing Israel does not make you anti-semitic. But all anti-semitic hate Israel.

Btw how about that we praise brave people of Ichkeria? How would it sound to you?

IvanIII

05-20-2007, 01:29 PM

Critizing Israel does not make you anti-semitic. But all anti-semitic hate Israel.

Btw how about that we praise brave people of Ichkeria? How would it sound to you?

Praise all you wantrofl

Snoshi

05-20-2007, 01:30 PM

now...my previous post STILL says, that even the palastenians are wrong, and arent doing much to further thier peace, instead furthring violence against israelis civilians AND the,selves..I just find it stupid how people claim one side is completely right and absolved of wrong-doing (as in this instance israel)

I agree in a way... But what did Israel do now? What did we do now?

Palestinians like most of the Arab countries can only live in anarchy or dictatorship and when the power struggle arises it leads to civil war.. Its nothing to do with the west or even Israel. Its about themselves. But the IDF's response is very weak compared to Palestinians who try to kill as many Israelis as possible.

Snoshi

05-20-2007, 01:32 PM

Praise all you wantrofl
Why should i praise terrorist's?

Btw can you tell me whats the difference between Chechen mujahideen and Palestinian freedom fighters?

IvanIII

05-20-2007, 01:34 PM

Why should i praise terrorist's?

Btw can you tell me whats the difference between Chechen mujahideen and Palestinian freedom fighters?

The Chechen are dead p-)

Snoshi

05-20-2007, 01:37 PM

The Chechen are dead p-)

cmon. You are Russian. Can you tell me how the Chechen situation differs itself from Palestinian one? You "stole" Chechnya land,we "stole" Palestinian land. Chechen's blow themselves up, so do Palestinians.

Whats the difference? What makes you support one side when you know how that the other side that you fight is the same?

~Berdan

05-20-2007, 01:43 PM

Critizing Israel does not make you anti-semitic. But all anti-semitic hate Israel.

Btw how about that we praise brave people of Ichkeria? How would it sound to you?

Why not?
They are nice guys,give or take some.

Whats the difference? What makes you support one side when you know how that the other side that you fight is the same?

The difference?Heh,the difference is:"Что можно попу..." ;) .

IvanIII

05-20-2007, 01:49 PM

cmon. You are Russian. Can you tell me how the Chechen situation differs itself from Palestinian one? You "stole" Chechnya land,we "stole" Palestinian land. Chechen's blow themselves up, so do Palestinians.

Whats the difference? What makes you support one side when you know how that the other side that you fight is the same?

It belongs to Russia , Israel is useing an apartheid simular system in Palestina i dont like and din't some of the land Israel now has belong to the Palestinias? im not a expert on that subjectp-)

Snoshi

05-20-2007, 01:54 PM

It belongs to Russia , Israel is useing an apartheid simular system in Palestina i dont like and din't some of the land Israel now has belong to the Palestinias? im not a expert on that subjectp-)

omg... Unlike Palestine Chechyna was a independent country. So there is no "real" palestinian land. They had the land onces, but they wasted it in wars.

IDF_TANKER

05-20-2007, 02:10 PM

It belongs to Russia , Israel is useing an apartheid simular system in Palestina i dont like and din't some of the land Israel now has belong to the Palestinias? im not a expert on that subjectp-)

Really? Stupid me, and I thought it was annexed by the Russian empire somewhere in the middle of 19th century. You see, the problem with the Chechens is that they don't know that they belong to Russia. For some reason they think just the opposite.

NimDod

05-20-2007, 07:44 PM

Read the book ''the 13th tribe'' and judge for yourself:
...
yada yada yada
...
http://198.62.75.1/www2/koestler/
http://www.nogw.com/download/2005_thirteenth_tribe.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thirteenth_Tribe

Contrary to Koestler's intentions, his thesis that Ashkenazi Jews are not Semitic (or only minimally so) has become an important claim of many anti-Semitic groups. Palestinian advocates have eagerly adopted this idea, since they believe identifying most Jews as non-Semites would seriously undermine Jewish historical claims to the land of Israel.

Genetic evidence
The main thesis of The Thirteenth Tribe has been tentatively disproven by genetic testing; a 2000 study of haplotypes by Hammer et al found that the Y chromosome of most Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews was of Middle Eastern origin, containing mutations that are also common among Palestinians and other Middle Eastern peoples, but uncommon in the general European population. This study suggested that the male ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews could be traced primarily to the Middle East.[1]

A 2006 study by Behar et al, based on haplotype analysis of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), suggested that about 40% of the current Ashkenazi population is descended matrilineally from just four women. These four "founder lineages" were "likely from a Hebrew/Levantine mtDNA pool" originating in the Near East in the first and second centuries CE.[2]

got any more insights? maybe something you read on a comic book or a sticker?

Danik

05-20-2007, 08:16 PM

No ****.

You are delusional however if you think Israel only holds people who have commited proven terrorist activities.

If they have commited proven terrorist activities there wouldnt be much of them to hold. Its a military tribunal. You are brought in, the judge checks the evidence, and then he decides. A tad better then being kidnapped in the middle of the night in grozny never to be found again. At least these "innocent" babies are in a prison and are visited by NGOs.

-DarthMaul-

05-20-2007, 08:17 PM

Omfg Aitor..Ive always wanted to open up the story of the Khazars...I have read some of the book, and read of some of the history of the empire... I dont care about chromosomes, I care about History, and a whole empireconverting to a religion.

The ORIGINAL Jews which are REAL semetic are ones that look very similar to Arabs(And I've got Sephardic Jew friends, and Ashkenzai... the Sephardic ones are more sympathetic to palastenians most of the times, and alot of times more open. Some of them are actually Moroccan, Egyptian, and Algerian.)

And I understand why you thought its weird I broguht it up when it wasnt mentioned..but trust me no matter what board im on I get accused of Anti-semitism just for raising the issue from a different point of view. But at the end eveyrone will have different views of this topic(well just like anything that has to do with the Israeli-Arab conflict)

Moledet

05-20-2007, 09:17 PM

rofl, very lame attempt by you to show that Sephardic Jews feel closer to Palestinians.
There's a football team here called Beitar Jerusalem, most of their fans are Sephardic Jews yet they don't want to accept an Arab player in their team and riot every time the management wish to bring one. On the contrary there's another team called Hapoel Tel Aviv that many of its fans are Ashkenazi yet they accept Arabs in open arms. Here, your thesis has gone down the drain.

Snoshi

05-21-2007, 01:50 AM

TR1

05-21-2007, 02:01 AM

Idiot:bash:

Why wont you go and bless Chechens? after all its nearly the same thing, and they love to support each othe :cantbeli:r

comparing the two peoples is completely retarded.

Snoshi

05-21-2007, 02:04 AM

comparing the two peoples is completely retarded.

Why? Are they that much different?

TR1

05-21-2007, 02:05 AM

Why? Are they that much different?

serius question??????

yes very diffirent.
and its not like every single one of both nationalities is a terrorist.
really dont see what grounds this comparison is on.

Snoshi

05-21-2007, 02:06 AM

serius question??????

yes very diffirent.
and its not like every single one of both nationalities is a terrorist.
really dont see what grounds this comparison is on.

On the grounds that Ivan3 supports Palestinians while he hates Chechen's

TR1

05-21-2007, 02:10 AM

On the grounds that Ivan3 supports Palestinians while he hates Chechen's
well okay, but thats a rather stupid ground to base anything on.
I just wish for peace for both people.

LRPV

05-21-2007, 02:15 AM

well okay, but thats a rather stupid ground to base anything on.
I just wish for peace for both people.

Amen to that!

Vorian

05-21-2007, 03:46 AM

Oh, but rocket attacks on Israeli towns on daily basis doesn't mean death right?

Yes, cutting off electricity means no fridges and air conditions for them as long as they are terrorising our towns which include schools, kindergardens etc (what you should know).

We don't need to win Palestinian hearts and minds, we need security for our civilians. And if it will mean no electricity for them, they will have to stop their terror attacks on Israeli towns, is it that hard?

Electricity is something very important for them, removing it will maybe make peace in the region for a while. And by peace I mean safety for Israeli civilians and for Palestinians as well.

Back on topic people

I can't see how cutting the electricity form civilians will keep the terrorists from bombing Israeli towns. More likely angry people will just strengthen these organisations even further. Why don't you check history and provide with an example where punishment of civilians actually stopped guerillas.

Snoshi

05-21-2007, 05:25 AM

Back on topic people

I can't see how cutting the electricity form civilians will keep the terrorists from bombing Israeli towns. More likely angry people will just strengthen these organisations even further. Why don't you check history and provide with an example where punishment of civilians actually stopped guerillas.

Its not like if we dont cut the power then they will start loving us... But why should we give them electricity in the first place? Let Egypt do that.

Snoshi

05-21-2007, 09:41 AM

[/B]

yeah right, wikipediarofl

Well.. Look at the link that some people provided

Vorian

05-22-2007, 05:39 AM

But why should we give them electricity in the first place? Let Egypt do that.

Ok, that's a good idea. Why don't you let Egypt deploy its army in Gaza as well. Think before you propose things that can't be applied to reality.

Snoshi

05-22-2007, 06:33 AM

Ok, that's a good idea. Why don't you let Egypt deploy its army in Gaza as well. Think before you propose things that can't be applied to reality.

Egyptian troops in Gaza? rofl
Egypt is too afraid to deploy them there...

Moledet

05-22-2007, 07:52 AM

Ok, that's a good idea. Why don't you let Egypt deploy its army in Gaza as well. Think before you propose things that can't be applied to reality.
We'll happily let them. If they want they can even take over it and annex it.

Snoshi

05-22-2007, 07:56 AM

We'll happily let them. If they want they can even take over it and annex it.

Moledet. Egyptians are not suicidal p-)

Kaplanr

05-22-2007, 02:55 PM

Moledet. Egyptians are not suicidal p-)

BTW I knew some Khazars; Joanne and her brother Phil, very nice people. She's a teacher now. :)

Here's my proposal; it isn't all that original and requires some tremendous suspensions of belief by both Israel and the Palestinians. To a degree it borrows from the current situation in Kosovo and the period leading uop to the "establishment" of Zimbabwe from Rhodesia.

If you remember, the UK re-assumed responsibility for Rhodesia for a period in 1979. Leaving aside the abject failure of Robert Mugabe as a civilian leader, there's a precendent here. Since the Palestinians have unequivocally proven that they're incapable of ruling themselves, The PA Government should step down and Gaza should be placed under a UN Mandate for 10 years. In those 10 years, the Palestinians, under UN supervision will reform their civil service, agriculture, educational system, infrastructure and all the other elements that go towards becoming and running an independent state. It also means the dis-arming and deconstruction of all militias and para-military groups. It goes without saying that part of the UN presence will be to prevent aggression, attacks, rockets, etc., against Israel.

In return, Israel agrees to forgo ALL miltary actions agains Palestinians in Gaza, surrenders all border controls between Gaza and the outside (except for the crossings between Gaza and Israel.) It means that Palestinian fisherman and Merchant Marine aren't restricted by Israel, nor is civilian air traffic into Gaza. Israel may provide utilities at rates comensurate with what Israelis are charged, or UN Gaza can contract with Egypt for powere and water.

Whether or not Gazans will work in Israel and how their taxes are to be collected and remitted is to be worked out between Israel and the UN Gaza administration. Once agreed to, if workers are allowed in, they should be paid according to the prevailing wage laws in Israel for Israelis.

If this method proves successful (Lord knows the other systems have all failed) then it can be applied to the West Bank too. There the stakes are higher and the lines not so clear cut. While I may not have the imbedded sense of history that others here may have about Judea and Samaria and their places in Jewish histiry, there are places that existed prior to 1949; meaning they ceased to be Jewish or Israeli as a result of the armistice agreements and the relative postions of the militaries at the end of the fighting. The same can be said of all the the West Bank - its creation was the result of a frozen moment in time.

Skewer me one and all.

P.S. Not to involve the UN agencies currently "dealing" with the Palestinian refugee problem like UNRWWA, etc. Getting them to reform is like asking the desert not to be hot. Maybe it needs to be the EU and not UN.

alexz

05-22-2007, 04:13 PM

It belongs to Russia , Israel is useing an apartheid simular system in Palestina i dont like and din't some of the land Israel now has belong to the Palestinias? im not a expert on that subjectp-)

Israel should stop it's apartheid ways (or any other stupidity you heard and
repeating) and do to gaza what Russia did to Grozny.
the problem will be solve in no time.

IDF_TANKER

05-22-2007, 05:17 PM

...........................................................................

That's deep, man. Very, very deep. I've been trying to figure it out for hours now, and I constantly find new even deeper meanings in it. Hell, man, it is even deeper than Matrix III.

IDF_TANKER

05-22-2007, 05:50 PM

it's called: i have no words to describe the level of inhumanity displayed by a forum member. :-(

It is called sarcasm. This particular sarcastic remark was meant to show the irony of IvanIII comparing the Israeli occupation with Apartheid while his own country committed unspeakable war crimes in Chechnya (e.g. Grozny during the second Chechen campaign was bombed to dust before Russians entered it).

alexz

05-22-2007, 06:35 PM

it's called: i have no words to describe the level of inhumanity displayed by a forum member. :-(

Do you have words to discribe your hypocrisy?

alexz

05-22-2007, 07:52 PM

hypocrisy?:roll:

Is it worth wasting energy on you?

IvanIII

05-22-2007, 08:54 PM

That's deep, man. Very, very deep. I've been trying to figure it out for hours now, and I constantly find new even deeper meanings in it. Hell, man, it is even deeper than Matrix III.

maby its a code or warning

EMPEROR ATTiLA

05-23-2007, 05:00 PM

solution is permanently peace...
but this not easy to say if size of mutual problems bigger than oceans..
past great victories could cause huge selfconfidence in israel...
but everybody knows excegrated sellf-confidence can hurt...
but nowadays WMD s are more easy obtainable stuff...
israel is single...but number of arab organisations are unknown...
if a small arab group atack with WMD and totally casualties are huge what will be reaction of israel...
and to whom israel will blame for attacks...
or if USA will give up to support israel ,can israel survive forever.
sensitive security and military affords can be not enough in the future..

peace must be forced for future of israel.

regards..