'Hawaldar'? 'Pukhtunwali'? These terms mean anything to you?

[Trident-za]

I'm busy reading a book that deals with Al Aqeada and Afghanistan etc. Came across these 2 terms - new terms and new concepts for me. Just curious as to how many people here know them? (as in a 'do you know your enemy?' type of thing).

[Royal]

The pukhtunwali is the Pashtun ethical 'code', a bit like the Albanian Canun.

Hawaldar is was a Pakistani NCO rank...

[ibstolidude]

I'm busy reading a book that deals with Al Aqeada and Afghanistan etc. Came across these 2 terms - new terms and new concepts for me. Just curious as to how many people here know them? (as in a 'do you know your enemy?' type of thing).
'Hawaldar' - authority - a rank used commonly with police often military - also in some places/spelling used as part of a name.

Pukhtunwali - is the pukhtun code of law/honor - sometimes called Nang-I-Pukhtun. It is likely refering to the Pashtun people or the Pathan tribesmen in A-stan.

[ibstolidude]

oops - too slow on the uptake.

guess that happens with multiple windows open.

[Trident-za]

OK, maybe I spelt it wrong (or the book I'm reading did) or there are 2 meanings to 'Hawaldar '. The word, as I understand it, refers to some weird informal payment system that Al qaeda uses instead of banks. Is it spelt differently? Royal, I'm sure you must know the proper term....

[ibstolidude]

OK, maybe I spelt it wrong (or the book I'm reading did) or there are 2 meanings to 'Hawaldar '. The word, as I understand it, refers to some weird informal payment system that Al qaeda uses instead of banks. Is it spelt differently? Royal, I'm sure you must know the proper term....
I have seen similiar in a similiar context to mean essentially a supporter or a person who donates money/tithe not sure in an actual banking context.

[Royal]

OK, maybe I spelt it wrong (or the book I'm reading did) or there are 2 meanings to 'Hawaldar '. The word, as I understand it, refers to some weird informal payment system that Al qaeda uses instead of banks. Is it spelt differently? Royal, I'm sure you must know the proper term....

Hawala?

Not (to the best of my knowledge) an Afghan phenomenom, IIRC the system is widespread throughout the islamic world...

[Trident-za]

Correct on both issues, thanks Royal. I copied the wrong word out of the book :oops: Interesting way of doing things- must drive the western intel guys nuts!

[Beowulf]

I'm busy reading a book that deals with Al Aqeada and Afghanistan etc. Came across these 2 terms - new terms and new concepts for me. Just curious as to how many people here know them? (as in a 'do you know your enemy?' type of thing).
'Hawaldar' - authority - a rank used commonly with police often military - also in some places/spelling used as part of a name.

Pukhtunwali - is the pukhtun code of law/honor - sometimes called Nang-I-Pukhtun. It is likely refering to the Pashtun people or the Pathan tribesmen in A-stan.


Pashtun....Honor code...haha that's funny.

Maybe they mean code of honor to jack you for as much money as possible as often as possible, and to "honorably" do boys in the brown eye. But what do I know.

[shrek]

Nah, you're about right beowulf!

[Trident-za]

Beo and Shrek.... I know you have both "worked" in that part of the world before. I was under the impression (God knows where from) that there was a certain amount of respect for the "indigenous" personnel, on the part of the US soldiers. This appears not to be true, judging by your comments. Is the difference in cultures too big to overcome (i.e. the two value systems are just too different), or what? Would you be willing to share your knowledge/opinions?

And Royal, have you done any work in that region before?

[Beowulf]

we're just joking

[ibstolidude]

Beo and Shrek.... I know you have both "worked" in that part of the world before. I was under the impression (God knows where from) that there was a certain amount of respect for the "indigenous" personnel, on the part of the US soldiers. This appears not to be true, judging by your comments. Is the difference in cultures too big to overcome (i.e. the two value systems are just too different), or what? Would you be willing to share your knowledge/opinions?

And Royal, have you done any work in that region before?
as we like to say - "You can't buy an Afghan, but you sure can rent 'em."

They would rip off anyone they could to include each other - it is just a part of their way of life. And they wondered why I stopped with a 'bakseesh' most of the time.
The honor code is a lot like "muchismo" - it is all about face. They can steal and rip each other off and they know they rip each other off but the saving face means if I accuse you then I was dupped and look to fool; however if they are caught in a lie or losing face, then it is on. It is amazing the lengths they go through to present an appearance.
Due to this ingrained belief it is hard for them to accept definatives and personal responsibility - as to fail or be wrong/agree and not deliver is to lose major face. We, atleast the we I know/worked with, had to be wary of our natural & cultural aggressiveness. Understanding the "face" system often could place you in position of "ensured coopertion" on their part as they did not want to loose face.

[ibstolidude]

we're just joking
Liar.

"CB, what was the major flaw in our AO?"

[Beowulf]

we're just joking
Liar.

"CB, what was the major flaw in our AO?"

hehe

I just didn't want to offend tridentza's sensibilities.

[Trident-za]

Thats very interesting, ibstolidude, thanks for your comments. And sorry, I didn't realize you had worked there too...

:lol: Beo Don't worry about my sensibilities :) I prefer the truth to rubbish which leaves my feelings intact.

[Beowulf]

Thats very interesting, ibstolidude, thanks for your comments. And sorry, I didn't realize you had worked there too...

:lol: Beo Don't worry about my sensibilities :) I prefer the truth to rubbish which leaves my feelings intact.

That's good. I should've thrown a ":D" into my last post...anyway. I really was mostly just joking.

After spending a lot of time there, and a range of experiences, you start to get a bit more cynical. I worked with locals a LOT more than most jobs. I met all different kinds of people but the bad/annoying/dishonest ones tend to stick out more than the good.

Stoli got the main points.

[Royal]

And Royal, have you done any work in that region before?

Only one tour, back in '02.

[Trident-za]

Thanks ibstolitude, Royal and Beowulf. Personally, I appreciate the little bits of info you guys pass on.

Just a thought... in the history of warfare, has there been an enemy more hated and less known (by the average man on the street) than al Qaeda? Seriously, how much does the average person know about the organisation, the people in it, and the way they operate? Is this a good thing (opsec?) or a bad thing? Would knowing the truth scare the **** out of us, or make it easier to stop them? Why DONT we know more about them?

Sorry, too many questions.... I just never realized how little I had thought about these issues before today. They are not like other terrorist organisations in so many ways.....

[sethen]

I'm busy reading a book that deals with Al Aqeada and Afghanistan etc. Came across these 2 terms - new terms and new concepts for me. Just curious as to how many people here know them? (as in a 'do you know your enemy?' type of thing).

Pukhtunwali is the Pashtun tribal laws and SUPERCEDES Islamic law. Meaning that Pukhtunwali outrules Sharia. Shocking? It resembles Old Testament Judaism more than Islam. Many ISRAELI scholars seem to think the Pashtuns are one of the lost tribes of Israel.

[Trident-za]

Thanks Sethen... not sure why it should be shocking, but still interesting to know. I've decided to learn a bit more about the region than the usual "islamic fundamentalist" stuff. This is a "global" war on terror, I believe, and knowing a bit more about the bad guys is not a bad thing... can't believe how few people other than veterans have an interest in this thread. We want to win the war on terror, as long as we dont have to learn anything about them? Weird.....

[ibstolidude]

Thanks ibstolitude, Royal and Beowulf. Personally, I appreciate the little bits of info you guys pass on.

Just a thought... in the history of warfare, has there been an enemy more hated and less known (by the average man on the street) than al Qaeda? Seriously, how much does the average person know about the organisation, the people in it, and the way they operate? Is this a good thing (opsec?) or a bad thing? Would knowing the truth scare the **** out of us, or make it easier to stop them? Why DONT we know more about them?

Sorry, too many questions.... I just never realized how little I had thought about these issues before today. They are not like other terrorist organisations in so many ways..... we don;t know more because of the limitations on our intelligence efforts (not debating if righ tor wrong) and by the limitations of having insider information in that structure.

[Trident-za]

we don;t know more because of the limitations on our intelligence efforts (not debating if righ tor wrong) and by the limitations of having insider information in that structure.

OK, fair enough... this does beg the question of how the hell we gonna defeat an organisation we know nothing about? Capturing/killing OBL would look good in the media, for example, but would it actually mean anything in terms of beating them? I dunno, just... sort of confused by this. Knowledge is power... so what is lack of knowledge? I know the coalition is doing a good job of dealing with Al Qaeda foot soldiers, but is that enough?

I'm just throwing thoughts out as they come to me... no offence intended etc. For you guys who know a bit, should we be more worried than we are?

[sethen]

Thanks Sethen... not sure why it should be shocking, but still interesting to know. I've decided to learn a bit more about the region than the usual "islamic fundamentalist" stuff. This is a "global" war on terror, I believe, and knowing a bit more about the bad guys is not a bad thing... can't believe how few people other than veterans have an interest in this thread. We want to win the war on terror, as long as we dont have to learn anything about them? Weird.....

Well, if you ulisten to Fox news to form an opinion on subjects like these its going to be skewed and inaccurate. Remember that the media is a mouthpiece for its owners. They DONT want you you form an opinion an possibly dissent. If you are interesed in Centarl Asia, Islam etc. etc. I suggest you watch, "Search for the lost Tribes Of Israel." "The Taliban" by Ahmed Rashid "Holy War Inc." Peter Bergen If I can remeber some more I willl edit the post. BTW...most people don't want to learn anything they want to be told what to think! :cantbeli:

[Trident-za]

Good points, although I must add that I've never seen Fox news in my life :) Other than the internet, of course, and its so slow for me I don't usually look beyond the headlines.

Living in South Africa means a lack of access to the "usual" news media. This can be a bad thing, but it also means I don't get any of the propoganda (yes, it exists) that most western people get (both pro and anti US). Also have no idea how I could watch anything you suggested..... I could recite our TV news to you in Zulu? (not that I understand it :roll: )