Al Gore Won't Be Happy With This Kid

[Dakota435]

http://home.earthlink.net/~ponderthemaundercf/id12.html

An AGW debunking web site by an amazing 15 year old girl in Maine. Beautifully presented.

[vinny_121_ND]

amazing. Al Gore will not comment if you try to ask him questions because he simply don't got the facts straight.

[AgentX]

This isn't "debunking" global warming, technically. The author is merely trying to come up with different reasons and factors that cause the same.

[Mastermind]

NO! Did you read the article all the way through? Did you look at the appendix? How about the blibliography? Do you understand charts and graphs? The author was trying to weed through all the total BS and crap "Global Warming" propaganda that surrounds this issue to make some sense of it all. I did the same two years ago to find out for myself if global warming is caused by humans...at the time it seemed to make sense that our activity was the cause...(rather flattering, in a stange sort of way, really).

I found out that all of human existance since we first began using fire, we have not caused any more extra CO2 to be emitted than just three of the largest volcanic eruptions in the last two hundred years! So...that told me, there must be something else going on and I also immediately went to the most likely source of heat on Earth...the Sun!

When I checked on the record of solar activity over the last ten thousand years and compared that to the known atmosphereic heat records as indicated from glacial ice cores, the match was overwhelming and my studies stopped right there. Global warming is caused by the Sun! Duh!

I found this read to be very informative and found several sources of scientific data I had not been aware of ...which helped confirm what I already knew.


Yes...the rush to "Do something about Global warming" is a scientific gold mine of scientific fraud. Just as Y2K (remember that little bit of embarrassing Scientific jack-assery?) scares dumped billions into the hip pockets of egg-heads who were going to try to save us in time....and the billions made from "emergency Y2K food and water filtering kits" and the booming sales of emergency generators...etc...con games). This GW scare is exactly the same but much, much bigger. The sun shines a bit brighter for a few years, and gullible idiots who refuse to read up on the event for themselves let hornswagglers come out and fleece them to a point of nakedness.

What makes me mad is that

1) even if it was human activity..which it most certainly is NOT...there is not one G-dawmed thing anyone can do about it now.

and 2) These goof balls are all being stampeeded into granting billions if not trillions of tax dollars to fraudulent "Scientists"...like Al Gore (that's right...he's not a scientist...but he's sure convincing a lot of people he knows more than any scientist on the subject!) It does not mean a thing that just about every one of his contentions in his little "documentary" have been proven to be either false or based on incorrectly intrepreted information...the new "Gold Rush" is on...and the new "Religion" of Global Warming has a new God at the altar for people to pray to and sacrifice their hard earned money to...probably makes them "feel good" that at least they are doing something about it now......I notice that Gore believes so much in his own idiotic ramblings he still lives in a massive mansion gobbling up all the Mother Earth he can...and flies around in his private jet, just spewing all that CO2 and unburned fuel vapor directly into the upper atmosphere...not seeming to give one teeny weeney bit of a care....after all, he gave at the altar by making his phoney little movie that is now being viewed by millions of little brainwashed future tax payers who will now gladly hand over their cash to "Save Poor Mother Earth" and will happily ride around in pedicabs and rickshaws munching on bean-o salted lettuce and celery.

It's a con-game of the first magnitude!

[Dakota435]

It's a con-game of the first magnitude!

But look on the bright side; the scam is so flimsy that a bright and industrious 15 year old can disassemble it effortlessly, from her home computer. This is why most of the scientific skeptics are so laid back about it. They can see it is falling apart on its own.

She is amazingly diplomatic about the whole thing. This gal has a very bright future.

[fac3s]

But look on the bright side; the scam is so flimsy that a bright and industrious 15 year old can disassemble it effortlessly, from her home computer. This is why most of the scientific skeptics are so laid back about it. They can see it is falling apart on its own.

She is amazingly diplomatic about the whole thing. This gal has a very bright future.

x2, I wouldn't mind having her brain, even if it means thinking about ponies and *giggles* the cute guy sitting next to me.

Strap me up Mr. Frankenstein!

[Dakota435]

This isn't "debunking" global warming, technically. The author is merely trying to come up with different reasons and factors that cause the same.

Yes I should say more correctly it debunks the hysteria over carbon as the sole source of AGW of significance. Nobody debates that things warmed up in the last 100 years, although I am now fairly well convinced a cooling trend is beginning, which is not good. Man has done WAY better during warm periods than during cold ones.

She also makes a very good point at the end that in setting the record straight it does not mean abandoning efforts to get off fossil fuels, just that the facts are the facts and decisions need to be based on reality.

[Mastermind]

Here is a another great little video putting any and all claims of human caused "global warming" myths to the grinder. http://seaspook.blogspot.com/2007/05/great-global-warming-swindle.html

[futurepilot2004]

Here is a another great little video putting any and all claims of human caused "global warming" myths to the grinder. http://seaspook.blogspot.com/2007/05/great-global-warming-swindle.html

On the other hand...
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070409223406.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070204111643.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070410133936.htm
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/science/topics/globalwarming/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26065-2004Dec25.html
etc etc etc
I`d rather take the findings of the vast majority of the world scientists and climatologists than some random bloggers.

[joe mama]

And her house doesn't burn 8 zillion kilowatts of power like Gore's.
BAM!
lol

[dangerclose]

Al Gore now regrets ever inventing the internet.

[dangerclose]

I`d rather take the findings of the vast majority of the world scientists and climatologists than some random bloggers.


Yes, because consensus is science.

[futurepilot2004]

Yes, because consensus is science.

Well as I said, I`ll take the word of highly respected and itelligent scientists who have spent decades studying climate change over the "proof" of some random 15 year old girl in maine.

[Jobu]

Well as I said, I`ll take the word of highly respected and itelligent scientists who have spent decades studying climate change over the "proof" of some random 15 year old girl in maine.


It's the strength of the argument that wins the debate.

The 15-yr old wins.

[futurepilot2004]

It's the strength of the argument that wins the debate.

The 15-yr old wins.

Your view, not mine.

[pascalywood]

We must all stop Global Warming. This is super serial.
http://www.sfphblog.com/serendipity/uploads/manbearpig.jpg

[AgentX]

For all we know, this 15 years old girl could be a 46 years old anti-GW lumpy bastard choking on banana chips, and chatting in pedo rooms at the same time.

Whether it's the CO2 or the Sun - the truth is that out industrialized culture is going to make us suffer and regret in the long run. When the trees are all gone, along with 90% of the animal species, mankind will cry over its history of consumption and senseless materialism.

Don't forget that Earth is the only known living planet in the known Universe. After having burnt our only home and hope in the light-years of unknown, we won't have anything else to cling to.

[dangerclose]

mankind will cry over its history of consumption and senseless materialism.



The environmentalist movement isn't a haven for displaced communists or anything.


No offense to your religion and all.

[AgentX]

The environmentalist movement isn't a haven for displaced communists or anything.


No offense to your religion and all.
I'm neither religious, nor a communist. Just a man who is honest to himself, and isn't afraid to tell right from wrong.

[Group9]

I'm neither religious, nor a communist. Just a man .......

But, your avatar is a picture of a woman?

[futurepilot2004]

But, your avatar is a picture of a woman?
Does my avatar mean I`m actually a painting?

[AgentX]

But, your avatar is a picture of a woman?
It's just that I happen to like her more than anything else.

[Dakota435]

For all we know, this 15 years old girl could be a 46 years old anti-GW lumpy bastard choking on banana chips, and chatting in pedo rooms at the same time.

Whether it's the CO2 or the Sun - the truth is that out industrialized culture is going to make us suffer and regret in the long run. When the trees are all gone, along with 90% of the animal species, mankind will cry over its history of consumption and senseless materialism.

Don't forget that Earth is the only known living planet in the known Universe. After having burnt our only home and hope in the light-years of unknown, we won't have anything else to cling to.

Man what a brainwashing you've had. Do live in a grass hut and eat grubs? Any kind of lifestyle more sophisticated than that is "senseless materialism". Why, if you were to upgrade to a wood shack, that would require the killing of trees. In fact even the grub diet is hurting grubs, and must be stopped. You can only eat lichen, scraped off rocks, if you want to be truly unmaterialistic.

You CERTAINLY shouldn't be making posts on a computer!... scrape your messages on a piece of birch bark with a dirty stick, and hand deliver it, walking of course, to a forum member that lives closest to you.

[Dakota435]

Does my avatar mean I`m actually a painting?

Well it IS somewhat mesmerizing...

[11 Bravo]

It's just that I happen to like her more than anything else.


Ah so grasshopper...you are a lesbian ?. And to the other misguided fellow , maybe your avatar means you are painting for all I know...but my guess is such an avatar could infer something about your '******ity'. Just a guess though as I hate the artsy fartsy swine that goosestep through society.
If only "goreacle" had the brains of that 15 yr old girl...he might be known for his mind instead of his political duplicitousness. That young girl shagged the former VP on all counts and did it marvelously with no axe to grind or camapign(s) to fund. Can't say the same for Al goreacle commander of the insecure masses demanding political soma at the cost of reality.

[Dakota435]

On the other hand...
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070409223406.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070204111643.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070410133936.htm
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/science/topics/globalwarming/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26065-2004Dec25.html
etc etc etc
I`d rather take the findings of the vast majority of the world scientists and climatologists than some random bloggers.

I'm not sure I'd say vast majority any more. A lot of them are abandoning ship. Anyway, the "vast majority" were predicting a major looming ice age in 1975, or at least the media made it seem so, so that's how much that is worth.

In any case, you missed the point entirely. The "random blogger" simply went out on the web to use scientific sources that are available, but don't get the air play that AGW does, to show just how frail and shabby the AGW argument is.

[name already taken]

I'm not sure I'd say vast majority any more. A lot of them are abandoning ship. Anyway, the "vast majority" were predicting a major looming ice age in 1975, or at least the media made it seem so, so that's how much that is worth.

In any case, you missed the point entirely. The "random blogger" simply went out on the web to use scientific sources that are available, but don't get the air play that AGW does, to show just how frail and shabby the AGW argument is.
Dakota435, as usual, looks much more bothered by his perception of the possible consequences of having to fight against global warming than anything remotely scientific or factual.

Everyone is invited to join his religion of denying the possibility that mankind could be involved in the planet's global warming, promoted by Dakota435 himself and in person.

Praise to Dakota435, to his infinite wisdom and to his incomensurable knowledge of all things.

Do not ever address the fears driving him to promote this new religion because this is blasphemy. And you will be damned forever.

So, the choice is yours: either you join Dakota435's religion, or you'll be damned forever, and this, for the greatest benefit of humanity.

Amen.

[Teme]

Sometimes you have to be at least a little bit suspicious with the stuff you find from the internets and the people you meet in the chatrooms.

Anybody remembers the Youtube Al Gore-March of the Penguins spoof made by "computer student amateur film maker" and which was traced to be released by one of the Exxon's PR firms, DCI.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZSqXUSwHRI

Disclaimer: I have no glue, information or suspicion about the writer of discussed web pages.

[helomech]

Al "Blowhard" Gore is unhappy with anybody who disagrees him;I wonder if this young lady who did this study turned this in for a science project,because if not she needs to..

[name already taken]

Sometimes you have to be at least a little bit suspicious with the stuff you find from the internets and the people you meet in the chatrooms.

Anybody remembers the Youtube Al Gore-March of the Penguins spoof made by "computer student amateur film maker" and which was traced to be released by one of the Exxon's PR firms, DCI.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZSqXUSwHRI

Disclaimer: I have no idea, information or suspicion about the writer of discussed web pages.
You even have to be suspiscious about official science itself.

It's how it works. Science in and by itself is based on skepticism (http://amasci.com/weird/wclose.html). The base of the scientific method is skepticism.

If it wasn't of skepticism, science wouldn't exist. The body of knowledge we attribute to science would never change and it would be a religion no one could differ from.

Objectivism owes its existence to skepticism.

[name already taken]

It's the strength of the argument that wins the debate.

The 15-yr old wins.
Until next week when a 13-yr old defeats the 15-yr old.

[Dakota435]

Dakota435, as usual, looks much more bothered by his perception of the possible consequences of having to fight against global warming than anything remotely scientific or factual.

Everyone is invited to join his religion of denying the possibility that mankind could be involved in the planet's global warming, promoted by Dakota435 himself and in person.

Praise to Dakota435, to his infinite wisdom and to his incomensurable knowledge of all things.

Do not ever address the fears driving him to promote this new religion because this is blasphemy. And you will be damned forever.

So, the choice is yours: either you join Dakota435's religion, or you'll be damned forever, and this, for the greatest benefit of humanity.

Amen.

Ah Name Name Name... not very imaginative at all to just turn my own religion mocking shtick around on me. So lame. You CAN'T possibly be older than 19; I'm sure of that.

But... in any case... there is a logical gap here as usual. I'm the UNbeliever, as I keep repeating to you ad nauseum, because I don't take any particular position other than "you AGW types are full of it".

There can't be a church of unbelievers, only believers!

And YOU'RE a believer! rofl

[name already taken]

Ah Name Name Name... not very imaginative at all to just turn my own religion mocking shtick around on me. So lame. You CAN'T possibly be older than 19; I'm sure of that.

But... in any case... there is a logical gap here as usual. I'm the UNbeliever, as I keep repeating to you ad nauseum, because I don't take any particular position other than "you AGW types are full of it".

There can't be a church of unbelievers, only believers!

And YOU'RE a believer! rofl
What you believe in, my friend, is in not touching the status quo not to disturb anything that could bring any unforeseen consequences.

Truly it's the definition of a religion where people practice elaborate rituals and ceremonies to keep all the monsters happy so they'll let you have a living, maybe a future.

But the monsters being taken care of, simply don't exist and are just a way to keep the populace in line.

The monsters you are telling us to take care of are called "reality" and "common sense" and they are created by Big Oil because they are soon to be replaced in the monster creating business to keep the populace in line.

That's why they're so busy frightening everybody with "reality" when really they have no power to create a "reality" anybody can reasonably rely on. They're facing the end of their business in the few next decades.

So, thank you for telling us not to change anything, and to let those smart guys upstairs in the top 1% take care of everything, but, I'll do what I can to take care of my future myself, I'll try to avoid relying on corporations and monopolies to do that for me, because what they'll do will be to make my person their private property. That's all they can do at this point.

Many people have that same idea and I will do my best to bring water to the wheel.

And **** reality as manufactured by corporations. They've had their turn. It's time to wake up and to change the reasons why this society sticks together. And you're against that.

[Dakota435]

What you believe in, my friend, is in not touching the status quo not to disturb anything that could bring any unforeseen consequences.

Truly it's the definition of a religion where people practice elaborate rituals and ceremonies to keep all the monsters happy so they'll let you have a living, maybe a future.

But the monsters being taken care of, simply don't exist and are just a way to keep the populace in line.

The monsters you are telling us to take care of are called "reality" and "common sense" and they are created by Big Oil because they are soon to be replaced in the monster creating business to keep the populace in line.

That's why they're so busy frightening everybody with "reality" when really they have no power to create a "reality" anybody can reasonably rely on. They're facing the end of their business in the few next decades.

So, thank you for telling us not to change anything, and to let those smart guys upstairs in the top 1% take care of everything, but, I'll do what I can to take care of my future myself, I'll try to avoid relying on corporations and monopolies to do that for me, because what they'll do will be to make my person their private property. That's all they can do at this point.

Many people have that same idea and I will do my best to bring water to the wheel.

And **** reality as manufactured by corporations. They've had their turn. It's time to wake up and to change the reasons why this society sticks together. And you're against that.

You are one spooky dude kid.

[Ivo]

This "15 year old" girl has comes up some very interesting questions/theories I would love to hear a point by point rebuttal by an actual climatologists.

I'm a geologist and what they are teaching at university is that through the geological records it shows that the Global temp been reasonably stable over most of geological history with both spikes up and down. in temp. I'll have to post the graph one of these days.

For the record I believe that we are in a period of global warming and YES we are having a effect but we(humanity) are not the sole cause of global warming.

Note the brackets around the 15 year old bit, I would be very suprised that she is 15 years old.

[Ivo]

I've just re-read the article and if this girl is 15 she is a freaking genius even if you think what she is talking about is absolute BS.

[AgentX]

Ah so grasshopper...you are a lesbian ?
I'm a thoroughbred Aryan male with a schlong bigger than any DOTW ever had. Have a nice day!

[AgentX]

Man what a brainwashing you've had. Do live in a grass hut and eat grubs? Any kind of lifestyle more sophisticated than that is "senseless materialism". Why, if you were to upgrade to a wood shack, that would require the killing of trees. In fact even the grub diet is hurting grubs, and must be stopped. You can only eat lichen, scraped off rocks, if you want to be truly unmaterialistic.

You CERTAINLY shouldn't be making posts on a computer!... scrape your messages on a piece of birch bark with a dirty stick, and hand deliver it, walking of course, to a forum member that lives closest to you.
So, there is no over-consumption of natural resources, no pollution, no over-population, and the increasing shortage of drinking water is only a hype created and aired by global warming maniac. Right?

I don't expect you to start living in a cave, in the name of saving this planet. But the least you can do is to consume less and stop buying that is unnecessary. This planet is not a source of infinite resources, and with this pace we're going to get ourselves in trouble, pretty soon.

[DaGreatRV]

I say look on the bright side, if because of this our cars will run on electricity or hydrogen (wich would be generated by wind, solar, hydro, etc) ,urban polution would drop, there would be less smog and your kids would be less likely to get asthma. :)

This kind of shift will only occur when it is cheaper(economicly interresting) to use 'green' power sources instead of CO2 producing ones.

[muttbutt]

Can I ask why every time something to do with climate change/or not is mentioned, people bring Al Gore into it, is he some sort of trump card, you mention his name and the debate is done, is he some sort of super authority that if you knock him down suddenly all the argument on one side is null and void?

1 side
"I think climate change is a real problem that needs a soloution, even if it's not we should be working on ways to clear up our mess"

the other side
"Al Gore Al Gore!...AL GORE!!!!!"


debate over.

[name already taken]

This "15 year old" girl has comes up some very interesting questions/theories I would love to hear a point by point rebuttal by an actual climatologists.

I'm a geologist and what they are teaching at university is that through the geological records it shows that the Global temp been reasonably stable over most of geological history with both spikes up and down. in temp. I'll have to post the graph one of these days.

For the record I believe that we are in a period of global warming and YES we are having a effect but we(humanity) are not the sole cause of global warming.

Note the brackets around the 15 year old bit, I would be very suprised that she is 15 years old.
Maybe this is a little off topic, but I've read a book written by an astronomer (afaik in french only (http://www.amazon.ca/Mal-Terre-Hubert-Reeves/dp/2020790645)), who says, among many many other things, that both venus and the earth are in the liquid water distance zone from the sun, and the only difference venus has with respect to earth to justify the 800 degrees temperature on its surface, are the greenhouse gasses present in its athmosphere.

In short, both venus and earth should have similar mean temperatures and venus has a 800 degrees temp only because of the greenhouse gasses in its athmosphere.

As a geologist, would you have an opinion on that ?

I was impressed by the book because it's the only "green" book I've read where all the homework had been done. Meaning the relations between the facts presented were being drawn.

I don't mean here to say that we could turn out as a new venus, as the author did in the book as a model to show how far bad can be worse. My point would be that when a different model used, it gives a different perspective. And this is case of thinking out of the box.

[name already taken]

Can I ask why every time something to do with climate change/or not is mentioned, people bring Al Gore into it, is he some sort of trump card, you mention his name and the debate is done, is he some sort of super authority that if you knock him down suddenly all the argument on one side is null and void?

1 side
"I think climate change is a real problem that needs a soloution, even if it's not we should be working on ways to clear up our mess"

the other side
"Al Gore Al Gore!...AL GORE!!!!!"


debate over.
Looks like the GOP propaganda machine is working overtime on Gore's book "Assault on Reason" : http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/89-53813.aspx

[Dakota435]

Can I ask why every time something to do with climate change/or not is mentioned, people bring Al Gore into it, is he some sort of trump card, you mention his name and the debate is done, is he some sort of super authority that if you knock him down suddenly all the argument on one side is null and void?

1 side
"I think climate change is a real problem that needs a soloution, even if it's not we should be working on ways to clear up our mess"

the other side
"Al Gore Al Gore!...AL GORE!!!!!"


debate over.

Al Gore is quoted all the time because he is such a juicy target; being a shameless liar, enormous hypocrite, and general all around fraud artist, putting millions into his own pocket over the whole thing with his bogus powerpoint talk. And the biggest AGW proponent of actual scientists in the US, the NASA guy Hansen, is a Gore disciple.

He IS the poster boy for AGW, like it or not, and probably does more to discredit the movement than any other individual.

[Dakota435]

So, there is no over-consumption of natural resources, no pollution, no over-population, and the increasing shortage of drinking water is only a hype created and aired by global warming maniac. Right?

I don't expect you to start living in a cave, in the name of saving this planet. But the least you can do is to consume less and stop buying that is unnecessary. This planet is not a source of infinite resources, and with this pace we're going to get ourselves in trouble, pretty soon.

Well, no. There isn't overconsumption of natural resources at all. There is oodles and oodles of natural resources. Pollution is MUCH less than is used to be and it getting better all the time. World population levels are going to level off in the next 30-50 years and are already doing so in the west.

It IS hype. There is an entire industry built to sustain that hype, working in its own self interest just like oil companies.

Doom and gloom scenarios have been around for eons. Books in the 70s were predicting mass famine by the 90s. People really took that BS seriously and they still do.

This is not to say there are no problems, but you gotta have some perspective.

[name already taken]

Well, no. There isn't overconsumption of natural resources at all. There is oodles and oodles of natural resources. Pollution is MUCH less than is used to be and it getting better all the time. World population levels are going to level off in the next 30-50 years and are already doing so in the west.

It IS hype. There is an entire industry built to sustain that hype, working in its own self interest just like oil companies.

Doom and gloom scenarios have been around for eons. Books in the 70s were predicting mass famine by the 90s. People really took that BS seriously and they still do.

This is not to say there are no problems, but you gotta have some perspective.
And there's a future for all those wonders ?

[muttbutt]

Well, no. There isn't overconsumption of natural resources at all. There is oodles and oodles of natural resources. .
what?, is the planet some sort of unlimited pit where we can keep digging and digging for resources?, if resources aren't stretched now (which they are whether you believe it or not), what about when 1.2 billion Chinese and 1.4 billion indians all want their 3 bedroom centrally heated house with a couple of wide screen tvs and 2 cars sitting outside, there are mines in Africa working 24 hour shifts 7 days a week to keep up with Chinese demand, they'd work longer if there were more hours in the day, in 10 years the PRC will be using almost as much concrete as the US and Europe combined, wheres that supposed to come from?, ditto with lumber/steel/iron/oil ect

damn, they've been causing steel shortages in some sectors just with their ship building programmes.

[Ddavid]

I say look on the bright side, if because of this our cars will run on electricity or hydrogen (wich would be generated by wind, solar, hydro, etc) ,urban polution would drop, there would be less smog and your kids would be less likely to get asthma. :).

God forbid the hydrogen car. Better use a hybrid if you think batteries are ok

[name already taken]

Al Gore is quoted all the time because he is such a juicy target; being a shameless liar, enormous hypocrite, and general all around fraud artist, putting millions into his own pocket over the whole thing with his bogus powerpoint talk. And the biggest AGW proponent of actual scientists in the US, the NASA guy Hansen, is a Gore disciple.

He IS the poster boy for AGW, like it or not, and probably does more to discredit the movement than any other individual.

"In my view, we are not doing as well as we could in the global warming debate. For one thing, we have failed to use the opportunity to help teach the public about how science research works. On the contrary, we often appear to the public to be advocates of fixed adversarial positions. Of course, we can try to blame this on the media and politicians, with their proclivities to focus on antagonistic extremes. But that doesn't really help."
James Hansen — January 1999 (http://www.giss.nasa.gov/edu/gwdebate/)

It's just me, but this looks pretty reasonable and I'd say Hansen's efforts are being undermined by Political Interference in Science (http://www.ucsusa.org/scientific_integrity/interference/editorial-quotes.html) like many other scientists' work.

[DaGreatRV]

God forbid the hydrogen car. Better use a hybrid if you think batteries are ok


Why do you think hydrogen powerd cars are bad?

I tought that batteries are extremly inefficiënt compared to hydrogen.
I know to extract hydrogen from water(electrolysis) you need electricity, so if you have a coal powerplant generating that electricity..... :| ... meh, need more wind turbines to make it 'green'.

[Dakota435]

It's just me, but this looks pretty reasonable and I'd say Hansen's efforts are being undermined by Political Interference in Science (http://www.ucsusa.org/scientific_integrity/interference/editorial-quotes.html) like many other scientists' work.

You aren't paying attention. Hansen today defends Gore even as he has to admit that Gore maybe exaggerates just a teeeeeeny bit.

I don't follow this interference in science BS by AGW skeptics. The big players including most governments and the UN are all on the AGW bandwagon. They're the ones with the power to interfere, because they control the purse strings to the universities. And interfere they do.

[Dakota435]

Why do you think hydrogen powerd cars are bad?

I tought that batteries are extremly inefficiënt compared to hydrogen.
I know to extract hydrogen from water(electrolysis) you need electricity, so if you have a coal powerplant generating that electricity..... :| ... meh, need more wind turbines to make it 'green'.

Problem with hydrogen is it's just a transfer method, not a source. The aluminum gallium process to produce hydrogen in-situ however seems pretty exciting for cars.

[Dakota435]

what?, is the planet some sort of unlimited pit where we can keep digging and digging for resources?, if resources aren't stretched now (which they are whether you believe it or not), what about when 1.2 billion Chinese and 1.4 billion indians all want their 3 bedroom centrally heated house with a couple of wide screen tvs and 2 cars sitting outside, there are mines in Africa working 24 hour shifts 7 days a week to keep up with Chinese demand, they'd work longer if there were more hours in the day, in 10 years the PRC will be using almost as much concrete as the US and Europe combined, wheres that supposed to come from?, ditto with lumber/steel/iron/oil ect

damn, they've been causing steel shortages in some sectors just with their ship building programmes.

The world has only scratched the surface on most mineral resources. Shortages are because of production capacity from the mine to the finished product, not supply within the ground.

[muttbutt]

The world has only scratched the surface on most mineral resources. Shortages are because of production capacity from the mine to the finished product, not supply within the ground.
Hmm, yes theres a 600km wide ball of liquid iron at the core, how are we going to get thatp-)
of course there are vast quantities of material to be got, but there are also vastly more people going to be looking for products with those materials in them, there are only so many factories, so many mines so many cars we can build materially.or thorough production capacity, we have to start thing how much of the planet we want to rip up looking for things.....me thinks it's time we started working on mining asteroids.....aren't the Japanese planning to start that before 2025?, read something about that.

[Ivo]

Maybe this is a little off topic, but I've read a book written by an astronomer (afaik in french only (http://www.amazon.ca/Mal-Terre-Hubert-Reeves/dp/2020790645)), who says, among many many other things, that both venus and the earth are in the liquid water distance zone from the sun, and the only difference venus has with respect to earth to justify the 800 degrees temperature on its surface, are the greenhouse gasses present in its athmosphere.

In short, both venus and earth should have similar mean temperatures and venus has a 800 degrees temp only because of the greenhouse gasses in its athmosphere.

As a geologist, would you have an opinion on that ?

I was impressed by the book because it's the only "green" book I've read where all the homework had been done. Meaning the relations between the facts presented were being drawn.

I don't mean here to say that we could turn out as a new venus, as the author did in the book as a model to show how far bad can be worse. My point would be that when a different model used, it gives a different perspective. And this is case of thinking out of the box.


And I can only talk about my course but we only "brush" through the geolgy of other planets but from what I can remember the current climate of Venus is due to the massive super volcanoes. Another interesting point the lava that currently flows on the surface of Venus is basaltic in composition which is differnet to what it is on Earth

As for the worse case senario, it would have to be pretty massive. The last time the Earth went through a relly biggreenhouse senario, it was caused the Siberian traps erupting which was that massive that if it happened today you would be ble to see the "glow" today from the bottom end of South Africa. It's eruption lasted for about 200 years it also caused the massive Permian extinction and when the eruption was over the biggest ice age in the history of the planet occurred.

Sorry if this is hard to read I had a big night last night with my mate Jack Daniels :) and have only been up for a few hour much the worse for wear of well at last I woke up in my bed not in goal.

[name already taken]

And I can only talk about my course but we only "brush" through the geolgy of other planets but from what I can remember the current climate of Venus is due to the massive super volcanoes. Another interesting point the lava that currently flows on the surface of Venus is basaltic in composition which is differnet to what it is on Earth

As for the worse case senario, it would have to be pretty massive. The last time the Earth went through a relly biggreenhouse senario, it was caused the Siberian traps erupting which was that massive that if it happened today you would be ble to see the "glow" today from the bottom end of South Africa. It's eruption lasted for about 200 years it also caused the massive Permian extinction and when the eruption was over the biggest ice age in the history of the planet occurred.

Sorry if this is hard to read I had a big night last night with my mate Jack Daniels :) and have only been up for a few hour much the worse for wear of well at last I woke up in my bed not in goal.
Well, about venus I understand that the massive super volcanoes are responsible for venus athmosphere being 100% greenhouse gasses...

I also heard about the Siberian traps and the permian extinction and I think I've seen permian geological stratas in a quarry, maybe it was a more recent extinction but I think it was permian (there were trilobite tunnels and fossils so it corresponds) and it was pretty impressive. They were mining clay for brick in those quarries.

One theory about this extinction is that the global temperature rise from the traps were so high that formerly sequested methane was liberated in large quantities from the bottom of the many shallow seas of the time. Since methane has many times the greenhouse effect of co2 ...

I'm just back from a 12h night shift myself, so this might be a little long winded...

[Ivo]

Well, about venus I understand that the massive super volcanoes are responsible for venus athmosphere being 100% greenhouse gasses...

I also heard about the Siberian traps and the permian extinction and I think I've seen permian geological stratas in a quarry, maybe it was a more recent extinction but I think it was permian (there were trilobite tunnels and fossils so it corresponds) and it was pretty impressive. They were mining clay for brick in those quarries.

One theory about this extinction is that the global temperature rise from the traps were so high that formerly sequested methane was liberated in large quantities from the bottom of the many shallow seas of the time. Since methane has many times the greenhouse effect of co2 ...

I'm just back from a 12h night shift myself, so this might be a little long winded...

Yep thats pretty much my understanding. Also as a result of the Siberian Traps eruption the Norilsk Nickel province was formed from a volcanic feeder pipe originating from there.

[Evolv5]

Who cares if we're causing Global Warming or not, we're still wasting our resources. If the King of Dubai says himself that their oil fields will be empty by 2012 (or w/e year, it doesn't matter, soon anyway), then that means that the oil IS running out. Why not use renewable resources? We aren't losing anything for doing so.

[Ivo]

Speaking of oil fields isn't the one in the Caspian Sea supposd to be that big that you can fit the mid east one in a corner of it?? My information is 4 years old, so has that estimate been revised or is it not being factored in because it is owned by gazprom???

[name already taken]

Speaking of oil fields isn't the one in the Caspian Sea supposd to be that big that you can fit the mid east one in a corner of it?? My information is 4 years old, so has that estimate been revised or is it not being factored in because it is owned by gazprom???
I think it's pretty much russian by now, as you can deduce from here (http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/caspgrph.html).

I think there is a strong sulphur content issue in Caspian wells. But I could be wrong.

[SBL]

Who cares if we're causing Global Warming or not, we're still wasting our resources. If the King of Dubai says himself that their oil fields will be empty by 2012 (or w/e year, it doesn't matter, soon anyway), then that means that the oil IS running out. Why not use renewable resources? We aren't losing anything for doing so.

I've got some nice beach-front property in Kansas I think you'd be interested in.

[name already taken]

I've got some nice beach-front property in Kansas I think you'd be interested in.

But the business of estimating oil reserves is contentious and political. According to Campbell, companies seldom report their true findings for commercial reasons, and governments - which own 90% of the reserves - often lie. Most official figures, he says, are grossly unreliable: "Estimating reserves is a scientific business. There is a range of uncertainty but it is not impossible to get a good idea of what a field contains. Reporting [reserves], however, is a political act."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,13026,1464050,00.html

How much is your beach front property ?

[SBL]

How much is your beach front property ?

It's real cheap. "A steal" you might say.p-)

[name already taken]

It's real cheap. "A steal" you might say.p-)
Would you be interested in a very nice fairy tale ?
Steven Spielberg might be interested.

[SBL]

Would you be interested in a very nice fairy tale ?
Steven Spielberg might be interested.

Perhaps...if I knew what you were talking about.

[Dakota435]

Perhaps...if I knew what you were talking about.

He tends to do that...

[name already taken]

Speaking of oil fields isn't the one in the Caspian Sea supposd to be that big that you can fit the mid east one in a corner of it?? My information is 4 years old, so has that estimate been revised or is it not being factored in because it is owned by gazprom???
I can't find any recent news (http://www.oilcrisis.com/caspian/) on the Caspian Sea wells. It might indicate they've passed in other hands.

[name already taken]

Perhaps...if I knew what you were talking about.
the nice fairy tale? Here it is: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2524906&postcount=61

[SBL]

here it is: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2524906&postcount=61

I've already read that. Are you saying the King of Dubai wouldn't lie about such a thing?

[name already taken]

I've already read that. Are you saying the King of Dubai wouldn't lie about such a thing?
Everybody lies in the reserve reporting business. The western accounting under reports ans the eastern (Russian) accounting over reports, taking estimates of all the oil present, when only half of it is recoverable...

It's a total mess, so, everybody has to lie and to create wonderful fairy tales to avoid prices from going through the roof.

Of course, nobody sees that, it's private. And when it's not, it's national security issue.

[SBL]

Everybody lies in the reserve reporting business.


That was my point to begin with, you yokel.
At any rate, I'm sure just as much "report adjusting" goes on to ensure the price doesn't dip too low, either.

[name already taken]

That was my point to begin with, you yokel.
At any rate, I'm sure just as much "report adjusting" goes on to ensure the price doesn't dip too low, either.
But the fact that both Bush and Putin are going after reserves speaks by itself.

And besides this is an english forum. No need to call anybody a yokel.

[SBL]

But the fact that both Bush and Putin are going after reserves speaks by itself.

And I don't suppose it ever occurred to you that it could be political?
OPEC wields a fair amount of power over the US and Russia. It's logical to try and minimize that hold. Especially now that the ME is going through a bit of a crisis.

[name already taken]

And I don't suppose it ever occurred to you that it could be political?
OPEC wields a fair amount of power over the US and Russia. It's logical to try and minimize that hold.
OPEC is dead and forgotten by other discoveries since the end of the 1970's, update your files.

[SBL]

OPEC is dead and forgotten by other discoveries since the end of the 1970's, update your files.


Top ten: The top five provide 72% of the US oil.
1. Canada
2. Mexico
3. Saudi Arabia
4. Venezuela
5. Nigeria
6. Angola
7. Iraq
8. Algeria
9. Ecuador
10. Columbiahttp://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html
OPEC members in bold. Note that 3 of the top 5 importers are OPEC.

[name already taken]

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html
OPEC members in bold. Note that 3 of the top 5 importers are OPEC.
And you suppose Bandar Bush doesn't influence the rest of the tea party in favor of USA ?

What about Chavez ? Is he that influential that something must be done ?

And you know what, Canada not being in the Club has more reserves than Saudi Arabia. OPEC members better drink lots of tea. Otherwise they'll get bored.

[SBL]

And you suppose Bandar Bush doesn't influence the rest of the tea party in favor of USA ?

What about Chavez ? Is he that influential that something must be done ?

And you know what, Canada not being in the Club has more reserves than Saudi Arabia. OPEC members better drink lots of tea. Otherwise they'll get bored.

I thought you said this was an English forum. Break that down for a brainless American, would you?

[Dakota435]

I thought you said this was an English forum. Break that down for a brainless American, would you?

Don't bother. He talks in bizzare riddles like this all the time.

[name already taken]

I thought you said this was an English forum. Break that down for a brainless American, would you?
I think that if you try, you might not be brainless anymore.

Brain is like a muscle. You have the use of it to make it strong.

[SBL]

I think that if you try, you might not be brainless anymore.

Brain is like a muscle. You have the use of it to make it strong.

lol.
Ok buddy, whatever you say. However in the future, I suggest you lay-off the metaphors for a while. At least until you can communicate them more effectively.

[name already taken]

lol.
Ok buddy, whatever you say. However in the future, I suggest you lay-off the metaphors for a while. At least until you can communicate them more effectively.
This is His Royal Highness Prince Bandar bin Sultan bin Abd al-Aziz Al Saud (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/07/20050720-5.html)
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/820/bandarbushqk0.jpg (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/07/20050720-5.html)
on the right. He's also known as Bandar Bush.

Would you think this folk looks very dangerous to American interests ? His country is an important member of OPEC.

OPEC has been known to be riddled by intestine tensions since the beginning. No doubt Bandar plays an important role in American interests in OPEC. I think you should not be nervous about OPEC, because it has been the number one priority od the CIA for years.

What we should be nervous about is what CIA never wanted to make a priority of.

But that's another story.

[Dakota435]

intestine tensions since the beginning. No doubt Bandar plays an important role in American interests in OPEC. I think you should not be nervous about OPEC, because it has been the number one priority od the CIA for years.

Normally if one is riddled with intestine tensions one takes Pepto Bismol or Alka Seltzer.

[name already taken]

Normally if one is riddled with intestine tensions one takes Pepto Bismol or Alka Seltzer.
When you're stuck with a large population and low oil reserves, when others have large oil reserves and low population, pepto-bismol might help, but it's not likely to be a very efficient solution...
rofl

But in your case, you might place the word Byzantine instead of intestine. It might help your comprehension of the text.

[SBL]

Wow, this conversation just went flying off into left field.

[Dakota435]

Wow, this conversation just went flying off into left field.

I think he does this on purpose to mess with our heads.

[name already taken]

Wow, this conversation just went flying off into left field.
Well, sorry. Nobody's perfect. I'm just usung my brains.

Would've been better if I left you using yours.

[SBL]

Well, sorry. Nobody's perfect. Maybe I should left you using your brains after all.

I think we all would have been better off.

[11 Bravo]

[QUOTE=name already taken;2526594]

I'm just usung my brains.

QUOTE]


Whao...ha hahahahahahahahahahahaha...hahahahaha....... dang I think I sharted laughing so hard !.

[name already taken]

[quote=name already taken;2526594]

I'm just usung my brains.

QUOTE]


Whao...ha hahahahahahahahahahahaha...hahahahaha....... dang I think I sharted laughing so hard !.
I'm pretty much shaken since as a former MP.Net Dumbarse of the week you've achieved something I never have. Life sucks !
:-(