Burn Baltics Burn - Exile Article about Russians in the baltics

[dimasorokine]

http://www.exile.ru/2007-May-18/burn_baltics_burn.html

Burn, Baltics, Burn!
Why the Russian minorities in Latvia and Estonia aren't going to take it anymore.

http://www.exile.ru/images/authors/1.gif By Mark Ames ( //' + email + ''); //]]> editor@exile.ru (editor@exile.ru) editor at exile ru)

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RIGA -- I flew to Riga last week for the May 9 Victory Day celebration, hoping to get an adrenaline fix from the promise of a riot. I've been to the Baltics many times, and for years now I've been expecting the Russian-speaking minorities in Latvia and Estonia to burn **** down. By any historical-moral standard we Westerners have set, the Russians in those countries have every right to riot. It took a long time, but finally, it happened.

Here I should admit that I come to this story with my own prejudices: I think the Baltic people are ****ing Neanderthals for the way they turned on their Russian minority, once it was clear that the Russians were defenseless and could be smacked around with impunity. Given the choice between walking upright like the Westerners they claim to be, or behaving like knuckle-dragging monkeys, the Estonians and Latvians chose old-style European village fascism. And for that, I believe they should be booted out of NATO and the keys to their borders handed back to Russia to do with as they please.

For the past decade or so, I've been waiting for the Baltics to get a little come-uppance. Partly out of affinity with the Russians, and partly because of the Baltic people's vile record in WW II towards Jews and Slavs, a record shameful even by Europe-of-the-40s standards.
Still, when the Tallin riots finally happened, I didn't trust them. I got sucked into the conspiratorial mindset that comes from being in Russia too long: Who was behind it? Who benefited? Was it manufactured by the Kremlin? The surface can never be trusted...

A riot was promised on May 9 at Riga's Monument to the Soviet Liberators, the local equivalent to Tallin's bronze statue memorial. Latvian nationalists were going to try to march on it simply to provoke the Russian minority. A group of Russian-speakers camped out at the memorial the night before vowing to "protect" it, a crowd whose numbers swelled from dozens to several hundreds by 10 a.m.

http://www.exile.ru/transient/263/leadybei_estonca.jpg

But there was no riot, only menace and a fizzle. A tiny group of about 30 Latvian nerds and paranoid-schizophrenics, protected by a phalanx of riot cops, marched skittishly to the edge of the monument square. The Russians spotted them and made their way in groups to the edge of the square, at first out of sheer curiousity. Suddenly the atmosphere turned from festive anticipation to wounded fury, the kind of anger that comes from the guts. The cops tried to protect the small, frightened group of Latvian nerds as the Russian crowd pushed, whistled, and yelled, "Fashisti! Fashisti!"

The Latvian, including a few vid-gamer types, pale skinny twerps, and weird old women, received official government permission to hold their march. They waited until the police secured a cordon for them, then moved nervously into the large concrete square, towads the Soviet memorials. The Latvians got as far as they could push through, about half way to the base of the monument, before the laws of density brought the crowds to a completely standstill. It was like rugby with two different strategies: numbers for the Russians, weapons and shields for the cops/nationalists.

For a few minutes, things seemed combustible. The cops got into a crouching position twisting their batons forward, pushing the Russians back. The front-line Russians were big guys, who looked like jocks and cops, but were remarkably orderly and reasonable. Both sides knew how dangerous the situation was; and unlike in Tallin, where the cops behaved like flat-out Pinochet fascists, worse even than the OMON in Moscow, here in Riga the cops restrained themselves and tried to maintain communication even while jostling and pushing. The Russians' anger was real; there were young and old, men and women, athlete types and intellectuals. As the two sides pushed against each other, the smart money was on violence. The cops were getting antsy, helmets pulled down and tightening into a defensive formation; the Latvian nerds were increasingly scared and confused; and the Russians could sense that a tipping point was near. At stake, it seemed, was the dignity of their entire nation, culture and history.
Watch more eXile TV (http://www.exile.ru/exile_tv.html).


Suddenly the tension was broken when a tall Russian guy slipped through the police lines, stole a Latvian's anti-Russian placard, and ran away, cutting left and right through the Russian crowd as slowly as Fred Bilitnikoff, when a pack of cops crashed through us, caught up with him, and subdued him. Part of the Russian crowd broke away to surround the cops and the heroic placard-thief, who lay down limp on the concrete and refused to cooperate. The cops held him and formed a circle around him to protect themselves, while the Russians urged and yelled for him to be let go. It could have unleashed a total riot; but the Russians who surrounded them were too reasonable, as were the Latvian cops. They spoke to each other; the cops argued with the Russians; most of the Russians who surrounded the cops kept reminding the hot-heads that their fight was not with the police, whom they viewed as "people like us," but rather with the fascists and with the Latvian government, which had denied half the Russian population basic democratic rights, and treated the rest like second-class citizens since gaining independence.
// //]]>
At first everyone wondered who the guy was who stole the placard. Even some of the "Anti-Fascist Committee" organizers from the Russian and Jewish-Russian community suspected he might be a provocateur. But as they learned in conversations with the police who detained him, he was just a "regular guy" pissed off at the Latvians. This is what is so dangerous and so hard to grasp: it wasn't a planned, manufactured act. By stealing the placard, by lying down, he had restored some of the Russians' dignity. With the numbers, the threat of violence, and the memory of Tallin hanging over the scene, everyone could sense that for the first time, some measure of power was shifting to the Russian side.
It was then that I understood the subtle connection between the "March of Dissenters" anti-Kremlin protests in Russia, and the protests by the Russian minority in the Baltics: both, at a fundamental level, are about dignity, about not being a slave.

I spoke to one of the more moderate Latvian politicians, Oskars Kastens, the government Minister of Integration, about the disenfranchisement of the Russians. He countered their complaints by noting that the 400,000 stateless Russians, or 20% of Latvia's total population, do get pensions, access to education, state grants, and so on. It seemed to him self-evident how decent and reasonble the Latvian government was: they paid the Russians money, after all. Even given his country's experience under occupation, he didn't grasp the Russian minority's grievance.
One of the ugliest arguments against the Russian minority's complaints, which you hear often, is that the Russians in Latvia/Estonia "have it so much better than Russians in Russia...they should be grateful, even if they can't vote, to be in an EU country." It's the same argument that supporters of South Africa's apartheid regime used to give: that South Africa's blacks lived so much better than blacks in African-ruled countries, so therefore, they should be grateful. If they didn't like it in South Africa, let them live with their African brothers in the Congo, or Burkino Faso, or some other ****ed up black country. Then they'd see what complaining was really about. This is essentially the argument used to deny the Russian minority's grievance, which is, at heart, a question of dignity. The same issues that underlie the anti-Putin protest movement.

Many in the Russian-speaking community are aware of the similarity between their protest and those of the anti-Putin marchers. Tatyana Zhdanok, who serves in the European Parliament, told me that not only did she feel this affinity, but that moreover, the Kremlin's behavior during the Tallin riots, sending Nashi to the Estonian embassy in Moscow, "has only made our situation worse, and played into the hands of the Latvian and Estonian anti-Russian leaders." Like many other leaders of the Russian minority, she lamented her community's position as "hostages" of both Latvian discrimination and sleazy Kremlin politics.

Incidentally, the Latvian government tried to strip Zhdanok of her elected post, but they were overruled by the European Court of Human Rights. Zhdanok, who lost many family members in the Holocaust, was once labeled an "extreme Russian nationalist" by the U.S. State Department simply for supporting the Russian-speaking minority's rights, yet today she is in an alliance with the Green Party of Europe, the only political party which recognizes the grievances of the Russian-speaking minority as valid.
What really fuels the frustration and injustice is the arrogant way in which the Russian minority's grievances are dismissed. One man I met on my way to the May 9 rally told me that he was born in Latvia, left to study in Moscow, and came back only to find he was considered an "alien" by the government, and had no right to citizenship. He showed me his passport, which is stamped "alien," and began to curse.

"They won't listen to us, and the Europeans pretend as if we don't exist, that we're just a Russian fifth column," he said. "I was born here! This is my homeland. I supported independence. But they decided to **** all of us. What Estonia showed is that the only way to change things is by physical force. We can't reason with these people with words and arguments, after 15 years, it's clear that words don't work."
When I think of how the West consciously and unconsciously de-legitimizes any minority group which Russia supports, I always am reminded of an incredibly evil article written by Robert Cottrell, the former Russian bureau chief for the Financial Times and the Economist.

In the summer of 2004, as the U.S.-trained Georgian army tried to take back the breakaway ethnic enclave of South Ossetia by force, Cottrell published an article in Transitions Online titled, "Time to challenge Russia." It is one of the most shameless examples in dehumanization-propaganda imaginable, recalling the sort of genocidal British rhetoric used to deny the grievances of the Kikuyu in Kenya, the Irish, and any other people who didn't accept their role as grateful subjects:
"To call South Ossetia a 'rebel region' or a 'breakaway province' of Georgia flatters it with the language of political struggle. Better to think of it as a Russian-backed smuggling racket with a large piece of land attached. The sooner the land returns to Georgian control, the better for everyone. Georgia has an interest in South Ossetia's peace and prosperity. Russia has none."

To imagine how truly shocking this opener is, just change the ethnic groups and re-read:

"To call Kosovo a 'rebel region' or a 'breakaway province' of Serbia flatters it with the language of political struggle. Better to think of it as a Turkish-backed smuggling racket with a large piece of land attached. The sooner the land returns to Serbian control, the better for everyone. Serbia has an interest in Kosovo's peace and prosperity. The West has none."
But since Cottrell chose to bash an ethnic minority which no one in the West cares about, he can be both a fascist and a respectable journalist, regular contributor to the New York Times, and so on.

One of the eXile's first sales managers was Ossetian, so I knew what total, utter bull**** Cottrell's argument was. The conflict between the Ossetians (and the Abkhazians) with the Georgians goes a long way back; it flared up again in the early 90s when Georgia, notoriously chauvinistic towards its minorities, elected an outright fascist to the presidency, Zviad Gamsakhurdia. How could Cottrell get away with invalidating their grievances? How can Western intellectuals, after all of the cultural moral-propaganda, still get away with telling the world that an oppressed minority is really not oppressed, has no grievance, and it's all the result of evil plotting by Russians? Can a journalist do anything more sinister than this?

In fact Cottrell's description of the Ossetian grievances reminds me of the American South's media accounts of black grievances in the 1700s and 1800s, when they always blamed riots and uprisings on evil outsiders: "Jacobins," Haitian revolutionaries, Northern abolitionists, Satanists, "Roman Catholics," and so on.

Cottrell's article is an example of why Russia and West are moving apart, and why it's on the verge of transitioning to a much worse phase. For years now, Russia's whining over the West's double standards has been met with a haughty shrug. After all, what are the Russians going to do about it? Let 'em whine!

I don't think the West has quite grasped it yet, but I believe we're at the point now when Russian complaints about the West's double-standards, which have never been taken seriously, are about to transform into action, for the same reason that the "alien" Russian explained to me in Riga: violence is the only language that the West understands.

Today we're at a point when whining about double standards is no longer a kind of action or ends in itself. Kosovo is about to achieve independence over Russian objections and in spite of the fact that Russian-backed minorities are in analogous situations but without the West's support (see Kirill Pankratov's article page 8). And now the memory of the Tallin riots is on the collective Russian mind, a memory that is a call to action. It makes the next riot much easier, and much more appealing. If and when Kosovo goes free, Russia, given its own internal dynamics, will have almost no choice but to answer action with action.

Arthur Schopenhauer once wrote, "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." The Russian and Russian-backed minorities' grievances are passing the stage of ridicule and into violence. There is a palpable change in the Russian minority's psychology. It's a sensibility that isn't all that different from the March of Dissenters', a struggle against contemporary serfdom in all of its subtleties.

The only question now is how much violence it will take before assholes like Rob Cottrell or Javier Solano recognize what should already be self-evident, and to what degree the Russian state will be involved in this second, and most dangerous stage.

again, from: http://www.exile.ru/2007-May-18/burn_baltics_burn.html


-Dima

[lightfire]

The author, Mark Ames (just for the interest,is he connected with Aldrich Ames anyhow?) is full of BS. The guy, who writes lots of *** in the article looks simple ribald who was given his tribune to express the hatred.

as for this:


http://www.exile.ru/transient/263/leadybei_estonca.jpg

couldn't it be concidered as terorist propoganda of some sort? At least it's a direct call. A translation:

"Kill the estonian! Save the world from fashism!"

pointless, flaming and disturbing thread.

[asch]

The author, Mark Ames (just for the interest,is he connected with Aldrich Ames anyhow?) is full of BS. The guy, who writes lots of *** in the article looks simple ribald who was given his tribune to express the hatred.

as for this:



couldn't it be concidered as terorist propoganda of some sort? At least it's a direct call. A translation:

"Kill the estonian! Save the world from fashism!"

pointless, flaming and disturbing thread.

it let you to see situation not from your usual side.
even if not convincing (that what i understand), i hope it make you think about situation in complex.

p.s. yes, picture is too much.

[lightfire]

I though about situation in complex, I do realise the citizenship problems, emotional issues over 9th May etc. But a lot here in this article is pure shyte and verry unprofessional, personally emotional. Adding "too much" picture I find it in complex, as I though before - BS.

[Slinky]

yup this is just another joke...

[Kangars]

Personally been there on 9th of May. True to the very last word. Too many russians in Latvia fed up with bigotry and ethno-political monopoly. Fed up with ministers without high education and prime minister a MILK MAN!

[asch]

lightfire,
can you point out some of "BS" from this article for us, please?

[Russian_dude]

Exile is just pure gold, so many good articles, especially the War Nerd.

[ostius]

It seems I am clairvoyant! I can see, I can see... This thread will be silly, boring and impolite soon! Authors will post their wishful ideas or copy-paste lot of text and links from www. Every time when opponent will write something does not match with wishful thinking, crowd will bawl: “Can you prove it? Give me facts? This is just a propaganda!” If somebody really will try to prove something and find some facts, nobody actually will read this.

Do you want to bet?

:-D

[Kroforit]

Do you realize that exile only posts provocations? Do you really think they give a *sh11t about Russia? The purpose of this website is to stir up sh11t between Russia and West, and not in Russia's favor.

[Flamming_Python]

Do you realize that exile only posts provocations? Do you really think they give a *sh11t about Russia? The purpose of this website is to stir up sh11t between Russia and West, and not in Russia's favor.

By targetting the readership of foreign expats in Russia?

[IronFinn]

Hilarious dude, so full of love.

[Herrmannek]

I hope Russians and Estonians are smart enough to not listen to this dumb **** westerner looking for a fight that could give him adrenaline rush...

[nnnn87]

http://www.exile.ru/transient/263/leadybei_estonca.jpg



strange picture. the original is "dont buy estonian, dont support fashizm". looks like this is selfmade provocation

[Hukatus]

and the bull**** flood never stops...

[CPL Trevoga]

I think it's bad. New generations will grow up with soon with hate for each other, thanks to former communists who still running the show in Baltics. These guys are some pieces of sh*t.

[Hukatus]

I think it's bad. New generations will grow up with soon with hate for each other, thanks to former communists who still running the show in Baltics. These guys are some pieces of sh*t.
During soviet times. all the politics HAD to be in communist party in order to have any chance at all to turn the things Estonian way.
But people were very well aware of who were the pro soviet union communists and who were just using the label to make a difference.
I can assure you, none of the true communists are in politics now days.
And current prime minister's Reform party enjoys record high support.

[StukaJr]

I'm missing the connection between demonstration in Latvia and the anti-Estonian image... I'd read the article through but it's written in a form that rather defeats any will to waste time... Help, anybody?

[Hukatus]

I'm missing the connection between demonstration in Latvia and the anti-Estonian image... I'd read the article through but it's written in a form that rather defeats any will to waste time... Help, anybody?you just threw away some precious moments of your life.
don't do it again :)

[dimasorokine]

I posted the article because it is one of the few articles in English that supports the Russian minorities in the Baltics...And I agree with most of the article...

If you disagree, rather than calling it "BS" and flaming eachother, focus on the key points and try to prove them wrong - you won't. And please leave the "Russians killed us, oppressed us, Stalin ate our babies" crap out of it.

The fact is the Russian minorities in the Baltics ARE being treated in a non democratic way.

-Dima

[Lapata]

I posted the article because it is one of the few articles in English that supports the Russian minorities in the Baltics...And I agree with most of the article...

If you disagree, rather than calling it "BS" and flaming eachother, focus on the key points and try to prove them wrong - you won't. And please leave the "Russians killed us, oppressed us, Stalin ate our babies" crap out of it.

The fact is the Russian minorities in the Baltics ARE being treated in a non democratic way.

-Dima

Yep It is a fact that Russians are treated in a non-democratic way in Baltic states . Cant say I agree with the whole article though.

[Lapata]

Check bottom of the page for some crazy music clips.

http://www.exile.ru/exile_tv.html

[Digimon]

This is gonzo journalism - H. S. Thompson style. Gonzo journalism makes no pretence at objectivity, and almost always takes a strong position on the investigated issue. Ames writes in the literary style of H. S. Thompson, using very strong and often vile and vulgar language as well as striking similes aimed at making an emotional impact. This is a very personal type of journalism, which should not be evaluated by the ordinary standards of the trade.

"Gonzo journalism tends to favor style over accuracy and often uses personal experiences and emotions to provide context for the topic or event being covered. It disregards the 'polished' edited product favored by newspaper media and strives for the gritty factor. Use of quotes, sarcasm, humor, exaggeration, and even profanity is common. The use of Gonzo journalism portends that journalism can be truthful without striving for objectivity and is loosely equivalent to an editorial." (Wiki)

Wiki on Gonzo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzo
Wiki on Gonzo Journalism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzo_journalism

[Digimon]

I posted the article because it is one of the few articles in English that supports the Russian minorities in the Baltics...And I agree with most of the article...

If you disagree, rather than calling it "BS" and flaming eachother, focus on the key points and try to prove them wrong - you won't. And please leave the "Russians killed us, oppressed us, Stalin ate our babies" crap out of it.

The fact is the Russian minorities in the Baltics ARE being treated in a non democratic way.

-Dima

Thanks Dima

[Kroforit]

By targetting the readership of foreign expats in Russia?

No, but by targeting suckers like you.

Their purpose is to portray russia as an arrogant nation that cares about no ones opionion anymore, specifically after Putin took control. And supposedly russia is doing it by any means, including the deliberate acts of aggression. And this is not the only image of russia they are proposing.

[Kroforit]

strange picture. the original is "dont buy estonian, dont support fashizm". looks like this is selfmade provocation
exactly what i mean.

[Kangars]

Been living in Riga most of my live and should agree with beggining of the article. On 9th May we expected provocations from nationalistic radicals, but not riots Tallinn style.
There is 50/50 composition of latvian/russian speaking population in capital city Riga making it 800.000+ city. City of Daugavpils has 80% of ethnic russians (extreme case).
Russian language is widely spoken in general but forbidden everywhere in government entities (local counsils, courts, ministries). Police, medical care will treat you in a language of your choice (latvian or russian). Businesses trying to be trilingual- latvian,russian,english sometimes german. So defacto we are bilingual, be cultural country with two major communities (lesser ones are Baltic gyppsies, jews, poles, armenians).

[Kangars]

There is NO WAY for non latvian even with perfect latvian language to take any high ranked ministerial job in Latvia. So much for democracy... There are so called russian parties in parliament representing russian community, but they are always in opposition and always denied executive powers in comities and minister cabinets.
There are also 500.000 non citizens living in Latvia (all of them russian speaking not necessary ethnic russian) these are so called ALIENS (different alien passport) These are people who moved to Latvia during soviet rule from other parts of USSR and their children (even those who born after 1991). These people who refused to go through so called "integration process" which gives the rights to become a citizen of FREE DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF LATVIA. So if you born in lets say 70's in russian family in Latvia, you happily go to local school learn local history, language blah,blah ... here come collapse of USSR.... and you suddenly become an ALIEN, a son of an occupant, a fifth colum element, a second rate resident and so on. So you need to prove you are a real citizen only because you are not ethical latvian. Do you know how they call this process? Integration! So after proclaiming independence suddenly out of nowhere more than 1/3 of population needs to be integrated. Silent, farmers fashizm it is.

[Flamming_Python]

There is NO WAY for non latvian even with perfect latvian language to take any high ranked ministerial job in Latvia. So much for democracy... There are so called russian parties in parliament representing russian community, but they are always in opposition and always denied executive powers in comities and minister cabinets.
There are also 500.000 non citizens living in Latvia (all of them russian speaking not necessary ethnic russian) these are so called ALIENS (different alien passport) These are people who moved to Latvia during soviet rule from other parts of USSR and their children (even those who born after 1991). These people who refused to go through so called "integration process" which gives the rights to become a citizen of FREE DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF LATVIA. So if you born in lets say 70's in russian family in Latvia, you happily go to local school learn local history, language blah,blah ... here come collapse of USSR.... and you suddenly become an ALIEN, a son of an occupant, a fifth colum element, a second rate resident and so on. So you need to prove you are a real citizen only because you are not ethical latvian. Do you know how they call this process? Integration! So after proclaiming independence suddenly out of nowhere more than 1/3 of population needs to be integrated. Silent, farmers fashizm it is.

I can't comment on how things are in Latvia, as I don't know. But I think people missed the point on why Russians revolted in Tallinn. It wasn't because the statue was moved; the statue was simply the trigger, the final straw.

[lightfire]

I It wasn't because the statue was moved; the statue was simply the trigger, the final straw.

the trigger was money and alcohol. It works very well, when everyone around you shouts loudlly, and to fall with that mix into chaos, uncontrolled reactions is quite easy. But you admit good point - it wasn't because the statue was moved. The initial reason did not matter. What mattered was looting, shouting, confronting the police (which did not linger aside as angels of peace of cource..)-a final straw indeed.

[Kangars]

In this case riot should be every friday night.

[Mamont]

..The initial reason did not matter...
Priceless... Only imagine how far this could lead...

[Zuze]

If everything is so bad then why the f*** we can' t see thousands of russians leaving Baltics and returning home to their beloved Putinland? Eh??

[Brute]

If everything is so bad then why the f*** we can' t see thousands of russians leaving Baltics and returning home to their beloved Putinland? Eh??

Because for many of them Baltics is their HOMELAND. Many of them were born and grew up there, but because they are ethnic Russians they are treated like second rate non-citizens now.
Imagine being born in your country but then comes a regime change, your country gets a new name and you suddenly become an alien because the new government doesn't like you ethnicity. How would you feel?

[Kilgor]

Imagine being born in your country but then comes a regime change, your country gets a new name and you suddenly become an alien because the new government doesn't like you ethnicity. How would you feel?

Like the soviet union ?

[tyovan]

Look guys,

How do you feel about Chita oblast's website being in Chinese and Russian? Are you happy about it? Look at all the racism, nationalism, and xenophobia in Russia today. This is yet another instance of the Russian pot calling another kettle black.

Look, we can agree that immigrants are expected to assimilate to the adopted country. If people are living in America, we expect them to live like Americans. If people are living in Russia, they should be expected to live like Russians. And if people are living in Estonia, then they should also be expected to live like Estonians.

If the Russians living in Estonia don't want to learn Estonian and swear allegiance to the Estonian state, etc - then they should move to Russia. If they want to be Russian, they should do it in Russia. If they want to live in Estonia, then they should live like Estonians.

[Mamont]

Like the soviet union ?
? Explain? All residents within borders were considered citisens.

[asch]

Like the soviet union ?

bull**** .

[Zuze]

Because for many of them Baltics is their HOMELAND. Many of them were born and grew up there, but because they are ethnic Russians they are treated like second rate non-citizens now.
Imagine being born in your country but then comes a regime change, your country gets a new name and you suddenly become an alien because the new government doesn't like you ethnicity. How would you feel?

That didn't stop THOUSANDS of russians from leaving central asian former soviet states like Kazahstand, Tajikistan, Kirgiztan in 90ties. Today there are absolutely no russians who still live in these "Russian friendly" former SU states. And here is my next question. Why does Moscow so love to talk about so called russian discrimination in Baltics while in same time no russians are leaving from there and never speaks about REAL discrimination in muslim Central Asian states?

[Zuze]

? Explain? All residents within borders were considered citisens.
Ever heard of Crimean tatars, "kulaks", Baltic "bandits", intelligensia, bourgeoisie, basmachi and other Soviet Union "enemy of the people"?

[Mamont]

Ever heard of Crimean tatars, "kulaks", Baltic "bandits", intelligensia, bourgeoisie, basmachi and other Soviet Union "enemy of the people"?
Are you telling me those russian in Baltic countries considered "enemies of the people"? In SU even those were citisens, and only court could strip them of it.

[asch]

Ever heard of Crimean tatars, "kulaks", Baltic "bandits", intelligensia, bourgeoisie, basmachi and other Soviet Union "enemy of the people"?

1.since when kulaks become ethnic group?
2.i miss the point when intelligenzia declared people' enemy. you must be have pretty amazing history books.
3.what's wrong with harsh treatment for bandits? oh, i understand, basmachi was a "freedom fighters" (c), right?

[Zuze]

In SU even those were citisens

Yes, second sort citizens which ended their lives in Gulags.


what's wrong with harsh treatment for bandits? oh, i understand, basmachi was a "freedom fighters" (c), right?

"Bandits".. In reality they were national partisans. I suggest you to start reading some history books which are printed outside Russia.


Regarding all three indicators (armament, staff and intensity of fighting) the Lithuanian national partisans were taking the leading position, the Latvians - the second place, and the Estonians - the third place.
From 1944 until January 1947 the Soviet occupation forces confiscated from the national partisans of the three Baltic republics 4,416,183 units of armament, ammunition and communication systems. The ranks of the Baltic national partisans included deserters from the Soviet army (7,133 men) and draft dodgers (84,234). These groups, an equivalent of nine divisions of the Red Army, constituted 97.9% of all national armed resistance in the Baltic countries. While Soviet propaganda called all national partisans "criminal bands," the secret information in these 18 statistical tables reveals that only 4.9% of Lithuanian, 10.3% of Latvian and 12.6% of Estonian partisans were using extreme violence in order to gain sustenance and fight active collaborators with the Soviet occupation. During three years of fighting in the three Baltic republics, 176,145 members of national armed resistance and their family members were "neutralized", 30,000 (some claims that around 80,000) men representing the occupation power were killed and 10,000 civilians died in military action (among them secret Cheka/KGB agents). The total death toll of the national partisan warfare between 1945-1956 was 15,000-30,000 persons.
The Baltic national partisans used their right to resist (ius resistendi) disproportionately greater forces of the occupation power. They were fighting for the internationally recognized rights of nations to decide their fate fixed in the Atlantic Charter signed on 14 August 1941. They were fighting for the restoration of democratic independent Baltic States in hope for assistance from democratic Western countries, and were planning to restore democratic governments in their countries after the defeat of the totalitarian communist occupation.

[Brute]

Ever heard of Crimean tatars, "kulaks", Baltic "bandits", intelligensia, bourgeoisie, basmachi and other Soviet Union "enemy of the people"?

"Because the Soviet Union did it!" argument doesn't fly. Those countries are not USSR, they are supposed to be above it, morally and otherwise. There's no good excuse for what the supposedly democratic Baltic governments are doing to their local ethnic Russian population.

[Mamont]

Soviet Union is almost 20 years dead. Yet they still fight it. Guess its a big honor to punch a dead lion.

[Zuze]

There's no good excuse for what the supposedly democratic Baltic governments are doing to their local ethnic Russian population.

And WHAT are they doing to their russian minority? Why we can't find any UN, EU or any other human rights organisation reports about "horrifying" russian discrimination there? The only reason why Moscow started all this BS about "discrimination" is that Baltic states joined EU and NATO and ignored Russian neo-imperialistic government protests.

[Zuze]

Soviet Union is almost 20 years dead. Yet they still fight it. Guess its a big honor to punch a dead lion.
SU is still alive you only changed your flag, political system and name of the country. Hell, you are even using old soviet anthem again.

[Mr.K]

SU is still alive you only changed your flag, political system and name of the country. Hell, you are even using old soviet anthem again.
Oh yeah, anthems have so much more importance than political systems.
Keep us entertained!

[Brute]

Like the soviet union ?

So, that makes it alright then?

I guess, if Israel were to start kidnapping and gassing Germans, and when some German decried such actions, you'd just say smugly: "Like the Nazi Germany, eh?" :roll:

[Brute]

And WHAT are they doing to their russian minority?
Do I need to spell it all out again? Read the OP's article.



Why we can't find any UN, EU or any other human rights organisation reports about "horrifying" russian discrimination there? The only reason why Moscow started all this BS about "discrimination" is that Baltic states joined EU and NATO and ignored Russian neo-imperialistic government protests.It seems, EU has closed their eyes on the problem.

Secondly, your dismissal of the validity of their grievances and your labeling of them as Moscow-originating BS, serves as yet another proof of certain points in the article (below, in black).


Many in the Russian-speaking community are aware of the similarity between their protest and those of the anti-Putin marchers. Tatyana Zhdanok, who serves in the European Parliament, told me that not only did she feel this affinity, but that moreover, the Kremlin's behavior during the Tallin riots, sending Nashi to the Estonian embassy in Moscow, "has only made our situation worse, and played into the hands of the Latvian and Estonian anti-Russian leaders." Like many other leaders of the Russian minority, she lamented her community's position as "hostages" of both Latvian discrimination and sleazy Kremlin politics.

Incidentally, the Latvian government tried to strip Zhdanok of her elected post, but they were overruled by the European Court of Human Rights. Zhdanok, who lost many family members in the Holocaust, was once labeled an "extreme Russian nationalist" by the U.S. State Department simply for supporting the Russian-speaking minority's rights, yet today she is in an alliance with the Green Party of Europe, the only political party which recognizes the grievances of the Russian-speaking minority as valid.
What really fuels the frustration and injustice is the arrogant way in which the Russian minority's grievances are dismissed. One man I met on my way to the May 9 rally told me that he was born in Latvia, left to study in Moscow, and came back only to find he was considered an "alien" by the government, and had no right to citizenship. He showed me his passport, which is stamped "alien," and began to curse.

[Zuze]

Do I need to spell it all out again? Read the OP's article.

And who is OP? Some unhappy russian chauvinist?
Give me a break. Are you calling THIS a reliable source?



Tatyana Zhdanok, who serves in the European Parliament


Tatyana Zhdanok is ex-high ranked communist who voted against Latvian independence in 1991 and tried to stop all Latvian independence movement. She also supported hard line communist August Putsch '91 in Moscow. She should be happy that she is not in jail.

You need to understand that Baltic states "revived" their pre-WW2 states not created completely new countries. All russian immigrants during occupation are nothing more than illegal settlers who need to prove that they belong to country in which they live. They should be happy that Baltic states didn't simply expel them all together during early 90ties like Central Asian states did.

[Brute]

.

You need to understand that Baltic states "revived" their pre-WW2 states not created completely new countries. All russian immigrants during occupation are nothing more than illegal settlers who need to prove that they belong to country in which they live. They should be happy that Baltic states didn't simply expel them all together during early 90ties like Central Asian states did.


Hahaha!
You dismiss Mark Ames as a reliable source! rofl
Man, you keep PROVING him RIGHT with your every post in this thread:



I spoke to one of the more moderate Latvian politicians, Oskars Kastens, the government Minister of Integration, about the disenfranchisement of the Russians. He countered their complaints by noting that the 400,000 stateless Russians, or 20% of Latvia's total population, do get pensions, access to education, state grants, and so on. It seemed to him self-evident how decent and reasonble the Latvian government was: they paid the Russians money, after all. Even given his country's experience under occupation, he didn't grasp the Russian minority's grievance.
One of the ugliest arguments against the Russian minority's complaints, which you hear often, is that the Russians in Latvia/Estonia "have it so much better than Russians in Russia...they should be grateful, even if they can't vote, to be in an EU country." It's the same argument that supporters of South Africa's apartheid regime used to give: that South Africa's blacks lived so much better than blacks in African-ruled countries, so therefore, they should be grateful. If they didn't like it in South Africa, let them live with their African brothers in the Congo, or Burkino Faso, or some other ****ed up black country. Then they'd see what complaining was really about. This is essentially the argument used to deny the Russian minority's grievance, which is, at heart, a question of dignity. The same issues that underlie the anti-Putin protest movement.Keep diggin'...

[asch]

You need to understand that Baltic states "revived" their pre-WW2 states not created completely new countries. All russian immigrants during occupation are nothing more than illegal settlers who need to prove that they belong to country in which they live. They should be happy that Baltic states didn't simply expel them all together during early 90ties like Central Asian states did.
ok, they should be happy that they treated not as animals but only as humans of lower grade? so much for democracy. i think "willage fascists" term is kinda get in use here.

i follow your logic:
you should be happy that we russkies do not bomb your country to stone age and wipe any cultural remains of silly baltics from the face of the Earth.

so, tell me, you happy?

[Zuze]

You are idiot if you compare South Africa with Baltic states. Maybe you should visit Riga or Tallinn first before you post more BS.
Still no answer why does only some "Moscow based" journalists and pro-Kremlin TV stations speak about so called discrimination. Are you assuming that UN, EU, and all other human right organisations support "neo-fascist" Baltic governments? If so, then why?

[asch]

You are idiot if you compare South Africa with Baltic states.
amazing argument, flawless logic.

Maybe you should visit Riga or Tallinn first before you post more BS.
thanks, i prefer to live in countries where i threaten as human being, not subhuman.

Still no answer why does only some "Moscow based" journalists and pro-Kremlin TV stations speak about so called discrimination. Are you assuming that UN, EU, and all other human right organisations support "neo-fascist" Baltic governments? If so, then why?
it's obivious, Einstein. western human rights organizations. a joke. they mostly for western humans, you know? and about all other - kinda exaggeration here.

[Kilgor]

? Explain? All residents within borders were considered citisens.

Stalin did his fair bit of "population transfers", or what we call ethnic clensing by todays standards.

[Kilgor]

? Explain? All residents within borders were considered citisens.

dupe........

[Mr.K]

Hey now ,Ames rules and exile is awesome.

[Brute]

You are idiot if you compare South Africa with Baltic states. Maybe you should visit Riga or Tallinn first before you post more BS.
Look, fella, it's non of my concern if you missed his point by a mile - it's just makes you look like a fool.




Still no answer why does only some "Moscow based" journalists and pro-Kremlin TV stations speak about so called discrimination."so called" discrimination? You mean, it's just a product of someone's sick imagination and not an actual issue? Might as well just deny the Holocaust while you're at it, chap!:roll:



Are you assuming that UN, EU, and all other human right organisations support "neo-fascist" Baltic governments? If so, then why?I see you can't read very well, since it's all in the article...


In the summer of 2004, as the U.S.-trained Georgian army tried to take back the breakaway ethnic enclave of South Ossetia by force, Cottrell published an article in Transitions Online titled, "Time to challenge Russia." It is one of the most shameless examples in dehumanization-propaganda imaginable, recalling the sort of genocidal British rhetoric used to deny the grievances of the Kikuyu in Kenya, the Irish, and any other people who didn't accept their role as grateful subjects:
"To call South Ossetia a 'rebel region' or a 'breakaway province' of Georgia flatters it with the language of political struggle. Better to think of it as a Russian-backed smuggling racket with a large piece of land attached. The sooner the land returns to Georgian control, the better for everyone. Georgia has an interest in South Ossetia's peace and prosperity. Russia has none."

To imagine how truly shocking this opener is, just change the ethnic groups and re-read:

"To call Kosovo a 'rebel region' or a 'breakaway province' of Serbia flatters it with the language of political struggle. Better to think of it as a Turkish-backed smuggling racket with a large piece of land attached. The sooner the land returns to Serbian control, the better for everyone. Serbia has an interest in Kosovo's peace and prosperity. The West has none."
But since Cottrell chose to bash an ethnic minority which no one in the West cares about, he can be both a fascist and a respectable journalist, regular contributor to the New York Times, and so on.

One of the eXile's first sales managers was Ossetian, so I knew what total, utter bull**** Cottrell's argument was. The conflict between the Ossetians (and the Abkhazians) with the Georgians goes a long way back; it flared up again in the early 90s when Georgia, notoriously chauvinistic towards its minorities, elected an outright fascist to the presidency, Zviad Gamsakhurdia. How could Cottrell get away with invalidating their grievances? How can Western intellectuals, after all of the cultural moral-propaganda, still get away with telling the world that an oppressed minority is really not oppressed, has no grievance, and it's all the result of evil plotting by Russians? Can a journalist do anything more sinister than this?

In fact Cottrell's description of the Ossetian grievances reminds me of the American South's media accounts of black grievances in the 1700s and 1800s, when they always blamed riots and uprisings on evil outsiders: "Jacobins," Haitian revolutionaries, Northern abolitionists, Satanists, "Roman Catholics," and so on.

Cottrell's article is an example of why Russia and West are moving apart, and why it's on the verge of transitioning to a much worse phase. For years now, Russia's whining over the West's double standards has been met with a haughty shrug. After all, what are the Russians going to do about it? Let 'em whine!

I don't think the West has quite grasped it yet, but I believe we're at the point now when Russian complaints about the West's double-standards, which have never been taken seriously, are about to transform into action, for the same reason that the "alien" Russian explained to me in Riga: violence is the only language that the West understands.

Today we're at a point when whining about double standards is no longer a kind of action or ends in itself. Kosovo is about to achieve independence over Russian objections and in spite of the fact that Russian-backed minorities are in analogous situations but without the West's support (see Kirill Pankratov's article page 8). And now the memory of the Tallin riots is on the collective Russian mind, a memory that is a call to action. It makes the next riot much easier, and much more appealing. If and when Kosovo goes free, Russia, given its own internal dynamics, will have almost no choice but to answer action with action.I know it's all too much for you to comprehend at once, chap, but just give it a try!

[Kangars]

Riots in Riga will be more difficult to subdue. Community is more organised than in Tallinn, population split is 50/50. There is significant proportion of ethnic russians in police force. At least 3 Riga's suburbs (Plavnieki, Zepnikalns, Imanta) are populated mainly by Russians. After Tallinn riots population here became more polarised and angry. You can add overheated economy, low wages and high inflation, mass immigration of workforce to Ireland, England to gloomy picture of our Democratic and Independed Republic.

[dimasorokine]

Brute,

Your responses to "Zuze" have made my day, I can just emagine you laughing and holding your head while quoting the article for him :)

-Dima

[kakapea]

This is the biggest bullkaka article I have read(this week, I visit many Russians sites).

The fact that he puts all the things in one pot, Estonia and Latvia, even if with very different situation and system, plus he even adds Lithuania in the rant title, but says nothing about it in the article.

This article is against almost all the rules of normal journalism. The way he uses his writing skill and fantasy can really confuse some people from the truth (brute and asch for an example).

It really seems for me that he has not a slightest clue what is going on in Estonia as the other whiners doesn't.

There is an old saying in Estonia (probably in some places more, don't really know), that "fear has big eyes".

This is so typical of people (not just Russians but people in general) to blame others for their misfortune and misdoings.

Please, if you gain information only from Western on Russian sources, please do not think you know it all. There is a lot more under the surface that shows how the situation really is.
I cannot say I see any differences in the living standards between the ethnic Estonians and ethnic Russians.

PS! I would advise the author of that article to get a better journalists education or to quit his job, because the only thing he is doing right now is against the normal custom.

[asch]

PS! I would advise the author of that article to get a better journalists education or to quit his job, because the only thing he is doing right now is against the normal custom.

i believe, this is benefits of free press. p-)

[kakapea]

i believe, this is benefits of free press. p-)

In normal countries, even free press has it's limits and laws. This is in order to prevent racism, discrimination, or false propaganda.

[asch]

In normal countries, even free press has it's limits and laws. This is in order to prevent racism, discrimination, or false propaganda.
can you provide a list of such countries?

[kakapea]

can you provide a list of such countries?

I am not sure if a list of that kind has been ever made :/

But I think/hope most of the worlds countries had at least basic journalist code, and that the journalists are following them.

[Mamont]

http://www.youtube.com/v/Egme7q1ubyY

[Lapata]

http://www.youtube.com/v/Egme7q1ubyY

hahahah wtf

[kakapea]

http://www.youtube.com/v/Egme7q1ubyY


Could you please explain me what was the point of your post?

If you want I can translate what the comedian Peeter Oja was saying.

[CPL Trevoga]

Could you please explain me what was the point of your post?

If you want I can translate what the comedian Peeter Oja was saying.

I think he was making fun of that lady, who was prasing Ze President. What did he crossed out in that praise list?

[kakapea]

I think he was making fun of that lady, who was prasing Ze President. What did he crossed out in that praise list?

A word which he couldn't ****ounce. (marvelous) :P

The lady was the last embassador of the United States. At least she was very dedicated :)

[Hukatus]

Riots in Riga will be more difficult to subdue. Community is more organised than in Tallinn, population split is 50/50. There is significant proportion of ethnic russians in police force. At least 3 Riga's suburbs (Plavnieki, Zepnikalns, Imanta) are populated mainly by Russians. After Tallinn riots population here became more polarised and angry. You can add overheated economy, low wages and high inflation, mass immigration of workforce to Ireland, England to gloomy picture of our Democratic and Independed Republic.

this is just a proof of soviets unions ambition to passively assimilate and wipe out a small nation, by populating Latvia with as many settlers from soviet union as possible. the population balance is already critical, 50/50, Latvians had almost become a minority in their own native homeland.

[CPL Trevoga]

this is just a proof of soviets unions ambition to passively assimilate and wipe out a small nation, by populating Latvia with as many settlers from soviet union as possible. the population balance is already critical, 50/50, Latvians had almost become a minority in their own native homeland.

No evidence exist of such plans. Most people in Baltics were good Soviet citizens. What does exists was Chechen and Krimean Tatars exile to Kazahstan and Siberia during Stalin era. Wouldn't be just easier for Stalin to put all people in Baltics into some ASSR in Siberia. Very quick and easy, instead of long passive assimilation.

You have bigger danger now assimilating in EU. Estonians and Latvians are moving to richer EU countries.

[Thor]

The russian minority obviously is a legacy from the occupation years. Since they still seem to regard themselves as russians I think the Baltic countries in the long-term would do best in simply revoking their visas and give them an amount of cash to start over back in Russia.

And for the record the russian minority in the Baltics seem to be treated humanely, that's a lot more than you can say for the historical russian treatment of minorities.

[CPL Trevoga]

The russian minority obviously is a legacy from the occupation years. Since they still seem to regard themselves as russians I think the Baltic countries in the long-term would do best in simply revoking their visas and give them an amount of cash to start over back in Russia.

And for the record the russian minority in the Baltics seem to be treated humanely, that's a lot more than you can say for the historical russian treatment of minorities.

Thor, you need to become better student of people. If you move to Estonia let's say, do you think you going to be Estonian? No, you going to be Swedish who speaks Estonian.

As far as Russian treatment of minorities it's much better than Swedish records.
When Sweden occupied Finland and Baltics, they forced their Lutheran religion and language on them.

[IronFinn]

When Sweden occupied Finland and Baltics, they forced their Lutheran religion and language on them.

I have to agree with this, until 1850´s you couldn´t publish anything in finnish unless it went through a swedish speaking cencorship. Talk about minority rule! I have hard time to read about the events of so called "language dispute" between finnish speaking and swedish speaking through out the 1800 and early 1900. There are such stuff that starts to boil my blood. no more of that here or I might start ranting more.

[Sergei]

The russian minority obviously is a legacy from the occupation years. Since they still seem to regard themselves as russians I think the Baltic countries in the long-term would do best in simply revoking their visas and give them an amount of cash to start over back in Russia.

And for the record the russian minority in the Baltics seem to be treated humanely, that's a lot more than you can say for the historical russian treatment of minorities.

Hehe,
Oh I am going to love this.

1. Russian minority is pribaltic born for the most part.
2. The Russians born in Estonia don't have visas, they have "Alien" passports. There is nothing to revoke and nowhere to send these people.
3. Russian minority is denied basic democratic rights like voting and making decisions which Sweden so much like to talk about every now and then.
4. Please enlighten us about "historical russian treatment of minorities".

It could be a drawback of swedish education, but you should have known by now that the whole Russian Federation consists of dozens of nationalities and religions who quite enjoy being a part of mother Russia.

[kakapea]

1. Russian minority is pribaltic born for the most part.
2. The Russians born in Estonia don't have visas, they have "Alien" passports. There is nothing to revoke and nowhere to send these people.
3. Russian minority is denied basic democratic rights like voting and making decisions which Sweden so much like to talk about every now and then.
4. Please enlighten us about "historical russian treatment of minorities".




1. I cannot agree with you in that point. I would say only about 50% have born here. But their parents were still brought in. After the world war II the country consisted of 97% ethnic Estonians.
2. Wrong here again. Almost half of the ethnic Russians have either Russian passports and working and living permits(those can be taken away and sent back to Russia) or have Estonian passport. The second half has so-called "alien" passports and working and living permits.
3. Russian nor any other minorities aren't denied of any democratic right. Everyone can have an Estonian citizenship and vote wherever they want. If they do not have the citizenship they can vote in the local elections. All the other rights are same for everyone.
4. For an example, when Ivan the Cruel took over Tartu in the Livonian war, he deported all citizens to Siberia. That is one of the examples. But I guess you cannot really call that a treatment, so just ignore that.




It could be a drawback of swedish education, but you should have known by now that the whole Russian Federation consists of dozens of nationalities and religions who quite enjoy being a part of mother Russia.

I cannot agree there either. The "Mari's" for an example.

[Sergei]

1. I cannot agree with you in that point. I would say only about 50% have born here. But their parents were still brought in. After the world war II the country consisted of 97% ethnic Estonians.
If we start to remember what happened before the Kingdom come than I have a surprise for you. Latvian city Tartu used to be Novgorod Duchy city Yuriev back in the 12th century. All pribalts in those lands are decendants of Teutonic knights. Shall Russia scream on every corner that her historical lands were occupied?

But that's not the point. Even if their parents were brought in so what? US is a country of immigrants, so is UK and many other countries where every new guy coming enjoys as much rights when becoming citizen as everybody else unless they are Russians in the Baltic states.



2. Wrong here again. Almost half of the ethnic Russians have either Russian passports and working and living permits(those can be taken away and sent back to Russia) or have Estonian passport. The second half has so-called "alien" passports and working and living permits.
It is you who are wrong. Check the estonian uprising done by youths. They were born in Estonia and denied the rights. Sure they will revolt. And "alien" passports are carried by people who were born there. I have a friend who can hardly speak Russian but he still carries one becuase the "village fascists" of Esstonia don't trust him with citizenship.




3. Russian nor any other minorities aren't denied of any democratic right. Everyone can have an Estonian citizenship and vote wherever they want. If they do not have the citizenship they can vote in the local elections. All the other rights are same for everyone.
Apparently you don't know the situation in Baltic countries. Estonia has about 300 000 "aliens". That is 1/5 of population.



4. For an example, when Ivan the Cruel took over Tartu in the Livonian war, he deported all citizens to Siberia. That is one of the examples. But I guess you cannot really call that a treatment, so just ignore that.
When Teutonic knights took Yuriev (Tartu) they ransacked the city and killed the majority of slavs living there, what's your point?



I cannot agree there either. The "Mari's" for an example.

Let's talk about "Vesps"? You never heard about "Vesp" minority? No doubt, there are only about 16 people left in Pskov region.
See my point?

[kakapea]

If we start to remember what happened before the Kingdom come than I have a surprise for you. Latvian city Tartu used to be Novgorod Duchy city Yuriev back in the 12th century. All pribalts in those lands are decendants of Teutonic knights. Shall Russia scream on every corner that her historical lands were occupied?

Tartu has never been a "Latvian city". Estonians have always lived in the current Estonian territory. Yes indeed, the city of Tartu was inhabited by Germans, Russians, Estonians and people from other ethnities. But it had the name after Yaroslav I the Wise's birthname Yury. But he was infact the prince of Kiev not Russia. But he also invaded, so you cannot talk about "Russian historical lands" nor even Ukrainian.



But that's not the point. Even if their parents were brought in so what? US is a country of immigrants, so is UK and many other countries where every new guy coming enjoys as much rights when becoming citizen as everybody else unless they are Russians in the Baltic states.

"The new guy" enjoys all the rights when he gets the citizenship. Same in Estonia. And everybody can get the citizenship - only need to know the language (same as everywhere in the world). Everyone with the citizenship has the same rights. The ones without it can't only vote in the parliamentary election, but all the other rights are the same.





It is you who are wrong. Check the estonian uprising done by youths. They were born in Estonia and denied the rights. Sure they will revolt. And "alien" passports are carried by people who were born there. I have a friend who can hardly speak Russian but he still carries one becuase the "village fascists" of Esstonia don't trust him with citizenship.

The uprising was done by criminals (53% of them had a criminal record). The so-called uprising was very stupid and they didn't even demand anything. As I have stated once earlier Estonia belongs to the list of countries that do not give the citizenship based on the birthplace. Some countries do. Some not. How can anyone be "not trusted with citizenship". As I have said earlier, everybody can have the citizenship after performing the language exam. This is how its done all over the world. Why should Estonia be different? (btw I cannot understand what has the "he can hardly speak Russian) to do with it?



Apparently you don't know the situation in Baltic countries. Estonia has about 300 000 "aliens". That is 1/5 of population.

WRONG, please, name your sources. There are 1 095 742 people with Estonian citizenship, 86 067 with Russian citizenship and 170 349 without any citizenship. (+ people with other citizenships which are unimportant at the moment). This is according to 31th March 2000. I could get newer data, but i just do not have time at time at the very moment. My sources are the national statistics center, what are yours?





When Teutonic knights took Yuriev (Tartu) they ransacked the city and killed the majority of slavs living there, what's your point?

As I said you can disregard my point if you want. (It showed the way of historical Russia to deal with things)



Let's talk about "Vesps"? You never heard about "Vesp" minority? No doubt, there are only about 16 people left in Pskov region.
See my point?

No, I don't really see your point, because frankly I do not know who "Vesps" are, but I do know that the Pskov region should be Estonian territory (according to the Tartu treaty) but infact is Russian.

So...? If you could be nice enough and explain the stupid me what is your point.

[Thor]

Thor, you need to become better student of people. If you move to Estonia let's say, do you think you going to be Estonian?
I think there still is some small swedish-speaking minority in the Baltics. My guess is that they consider themselves estonian or latvian, not swedish. I don't think they will be rioting anytime soon.


As far as Russian treatment of minorities it's much better than Swedish records. When Sweden occupied Finland and Baltics, they forced their Lutheran religion and language on them.
Very much unlike you we seem to have excellent relations with all former territories...


Besides that nowaday swedes are often surprised to see that this part of history is kept alive in many of these places with new statues, names on buildings and streets, memorial marks etc. E.g. I think the city of Wismar even celebrates a special Sweden-day once a year. Perhaps a good opportunity for you to visit and ask them to compare the swedish "occupation" with their dealings with the soviets. Or you can check up on why the ingrians (finnish-speaking minority in the St. Petersburg area) have a saying; "the good times won't return until the swede returns to pick up his hat".

One explanation might be that we always had a strong tradition of rule of law and also a fair rule in general (hence why you fellas sent for Rurik and his men by the way). It meant a good life for many compared to the peasantry of feudal Europe or serfdom in Russia.

As for Finland it didn't exist back then. It constituted the eastern half of Sweden for 700-800 years. I would say it was more deeply rooted as swedish then some of our present-day regions were back then.


I have to agree with this, until 1850´s you couldn´t publish anything in finnish unless it went through a swedish speaking cencorship. Talk about minority rule! I have hard time to read about the events of so called "language dispute" between finnish speaking and swedish speaking through out the 1800 and early 1900.
That was under russian rule...



Hehe,
Oh I am going to love this.
Are you sure? No vodka or gay *** here. p-)


1. Russian minority is pribaltic born for the most part.
I don't understand russian. If you mean that they were born after 1945 I'd say that it's up to each and every country to decide whether they should have citizenship laws based on Jus soli or not.


2. The Russians born in Estonia don't have visas, they have "Alien" passports. There is nothing to revoke and nowhere to send these people.
Is that so? They might revoke the alien passports then. Laws are changed with the stroke of a pen.



3. Russian minority is denied basic democratic rights like voting and making decisions which Sweden so much like to talk about every now and then.
To my knowledge that's beacause they are not citizens. Secondly, I don't think any country that has been under occupation owe their occupiers anything in terms of right to power.


4. Please enlighten us about "historical russian treatment of minorities".
The closest thing in history I believe is the treatment and deportation of germans and other minorities in Eastern Europe and Russia during and after WWII. You haven't gone easy on the Chechens lately either.


Shall Russia scream on every corner that her historical lands were occupied?
With the obvious objection that Russia has no rightful historical claims to the lands bordering the Baltic Sea.

[Hukatus]

No evidence exist of such plans
the evidence is the current population balance in Estonia and Latvia.

Wouldn't be just easier for Stalin to put all people in Baltics into some ASSR in Siberia. Very quick and easy, instead of long passive assimilation.maybe quick and easy but not useful. people were working for soviet union. moving them would make much more unrest than just bringing in hundreds of thousands of settlers.

You have bigger danger now assimilating in EU. Estonians and Latvians are moving to richer EU countries.
very nice to see that u are such and expert on that matter.
just keep reading that from internet and repeat.

what if CCCP would have managed to bring in some more few hundred thousand settlers and make Latvians 40/60% minority in their own homeland. it would have been very easy to stop Latvia leaving CCCP and make it integral part of Russia.
and that was obviously the plan of soviet union.

it would certainly have ended in destruction and assimilation of a nation.
this is as criminal as holocaust against Jews.

Russians in Baltics who are not citizens have all the human rights they need, however they lack civil rights and that really does not make any difference, except they cant direct the political course of the country.

[CPL Trevoga]

I think there still is some small swedish-speaking minority in the Baltics. My guess is that they consider themselves estonian or latvian, not swedish.

You have to ask yourself one question, if they such Estonians, why remember the old language? Maybe they remember their roots and pride themselves in them.



Very much unlike you we seem to have excellent relations with all former territories...

Yes, human mind tends to forget the bad, and remember the good. Maybe in 150 years they will fondly remember USSR and have excellent relationship with
Russia. Look at Kakapea, he fondly remembers Teutons, but back in the day, they were slaughtering his people.

[Hukatus]

Maybe in 150 years they will fondly remember USSR and have excellent relationship with Russia.i can assure you, overwhelming majority of Estonians will always feel disgusted towards glorious CCCP.

[Drako]

Yes, human mind tends to forget the bad, and remember the good. Maybe in 150 years they will fondly remember USSR and have excellent relationship with
Russia. Look at Kakapea, he fondly remembers Teutons, but back in the day, they were slaughtering his people.

You're wrong - people tend to remember bad and forget about good. And teutons are well remembered here - people still tend to hate that order. Everywhere where history is taught, people will remember everything others did to their ancestors. The thing is about remembering about the past and looking into the future, but in this case both sides think like we are in 1945.

[CPL Trevoga]

the evidence is the current population balance in Estonia and Latvia.

maybe quick and easy but not useful. people were working for soviet union. moving them would make much more unrest than just bringing in hundreds of thousands of settlers.


What unrest. Stalin did not care for unrest. He resettled millions of Chechens and Tatars.

Well, most of those "settlers" voted and supported Latvian and Estonian independence anyway. Look, right now no document exist to back up your theory, also look at Lithuania. Why they were spared? Explanations could be many, but secret plans to destroy Estonians and Latvians are laughable. USSR did not care that there were more Estonians and Latvians in those republics. They were already part of USSR, there was no reason to do so, or change composition. Your glorious leader was a member of Com. Par. of Estonia, do you really think he was working on eliminating his own people?

And yes, EU is bigger threat to Estonia. In 50 years, your country will be full of arabs and other 3rd world peoples, you will be called Estonistan.

[Kroforit]

[quote]
4. For an example, when Ivan the Cruel took over Tartu in the Livonian war, he deported all citizens to Siberia. That is one of the examples. But I guess you cannot really call that a treatment, so just ignore that.



Maybe Livonians shouldn't have tried to invade in the first place, dont you agree?

[Kroforit]

You're wrong - people tend to remember bad and forget about good. And teutons are well remembered here - people still tend to hate that order. Everywhere where history is taught, people will remember everything others did to their ancestors. The thing is about remembering about the past and looking into the future, but in this case both sides think like we are in 1945.

Both of you are wrong, it is up to you to remeber only bad or only good or remember both events equally.
Could this unravel beyond ww2? To ww1 or even further?

[IronFinn]

That was under russian rule...

That is correct and what it shows is that the swedish speaking minority had a strong grip on Finland. In fact, without russian rule finnish
language might have ended up as the iris language. In a strange way the russian occupation was a blessing to Finland and finnish speaking people.
We did not have to fight wars for Sweden and waste our men nor were we taxed to death anymore to fund Swedens wars. We were allowed to blossom under our own rule (laws, postal office, money, army etc.)
and our russian rulers encouraged the use of finnish language to break of the swedish connection. If Russia would not have started the russification on finns then we would probably have stayed as loyal servants of the empire until the revolution.