More reported abuse!!

[Argyll]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=14206895%26method=full%26siteid=89488%26headline=record%2dspecial%2dinvestigation%2d%2dpunished%2dffor%2dbeing%2dold-name_page.html

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/tm_objectid=14206896%26method=full%26siteid=89488%26headline=record%2dspecial%2dinvestigation%2d%2dprobe%2dlaunched-name_page.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/630946.stm

Just to point out that even our own elderly are not imune from suffering at the hands of so called carers,this is not Iraq....this is in the UK

Point 1.Do these stories carry the same sentiment by others as those abuse claim from Iraq?

Point 2.Why not?........this is right on our doorsteps! And it could be your parents or Grandparents!!

Abuse is abuse no matter where it happens right?

[Argyll]

and also a report of abuse by Geman Police.........

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGEUR230012004


Oh my God........and this is not Iraq either!!!

[WanderingNomad]

Did anyone say that abuse of prisoners, or other people, was restricted to Iraq?

The difference with Iraq is that they are committed by the world greatest and best democracy who came there to bring these people peace and civilization ...

Perhaps SOME self-criticism form time to time wouldn't hurt the almighty US?

[Argyll]

You are completely missing the point!

[WanderingNomad]

It's a shame and scandal that old people are treated this way!

Or what is your point then?

[Jack Mehoff]

It's a shame and scandal that old people are treated this way!

Or what is your point then?

Argyll's point is just because you serve in the armed forces does not make you become a saint. There are rotten apples in every part of society and that include the military.

[Argyll]

Point 1.Do these stories carry the same sentiment by others as those abuse claim from Iraq?

Point 2.Why not?........this is right on our doorsteps! And it could be your parents or Grandparents!!

Abuse is abuse no matter where it happens right?


This is my point,is it any worse than the Iraqi's case?

you mearly glossed over it,but are willing to go more in depth with the Iraq issue...........why,abuse is abuse right?

[Fox2]

This is my point,is it any worse than the Iraqi's case?

you mearly glossed over it,but are willing to go more in depth with the Iraq issue...........why,abuse is abuse right?

The only difference is Americans are the ones doing the abusing in Iraq.


The difference with Iraq is that they are committed by the world greatest and best democracy who came there to bring these people peace and civilization

As the gentleman above satirically pointed out, we are "the greatest and best democracy."

Perhaps some are a bit envious of the United States' position in the world as a superpower?

[WARPIG]

The acts that this thread refers to are intolerable. If people feel the need to read into the reasons or source of these acts to support their biased views against the US... what can we do? Soldiers like my self are deeply ashamed and outraged by the acts of a few. I personally hope the people responsible and thier chain of command suffer punishment to the complete limits of the UCMJ.

Little things affect little minds.. if dumbasses have to seek out details and isolated incidents to support thier criticism of the US.. they just discredit their view. Much the same way the few idiots that felt their service in the US military positioned them above moral responsibility.. and discredited those of us who wear the same uniform.

[Argyll]

WARPIG........exactly my point,both cases are abuse,one commited by civilains in Scotland the other by German Police,yet they do not raise much comments other than......terrible,shame........yada.

The Iraqi's however because done by US Soldiers are like petrol on flames to certain individuals on these boards,and it just adds to their Anti American points of view,it shows them for what they truly are.........bigots!,with a blind hatred for anything American,no matter what the case/point be.

[ShotOver]

Nice Point Argyll :D

This torture crap is soo overdone by the media, they should be reporting from inside (Not to pick on, just an example) American state prisions, and other countries.

Just because it's in a war zone, and this stuff is happening, dosnt make it worse than it happening in a Civilian prison.

[weedman]

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGEUR230012004
Huh, you're right, all we European bundles of brushwood do really support such things here :lol: :lol:

:bash:

[Elmo]

WARPIG........exactly my point,both cases are abuse,one commited by civilains in Scotland the other by German Police,yet they do not raise much comments other than......terrible,shame........yada.

The Iraqi's however because done by US Soldiers are like petrol on flames to certain individuals on these boards,and it just adds to their Anti American points of view,it shows them for what they truly are.........bigots!,with a blind hatred for anything American,no matter what the case/point be.

What a far-fetched conclusion...bigots! You obviously need to fuel threads yourself so you an show up and lock them, because your post leads us to the reasons for the invasion, which leads us to flame wars about 9/11, Vietnam, Cambodia, Chile, Pearl Harbor, Wounded Knee and who knows where.

"with a blind hatred for anything American, no matter what the case/point be." :|

[Argyll]

WARPIG........exactly my point,both cases are abuse,one commited by civilains in Scotland the other by German Police,yet they do not raise much comments other than......terrible,shame........yada.

The Iraqi's however because done by US Soldiers are like petrol on flames to certain individuals on these boards,and it just adds to their Anti American points of view,it shows them for what they truly are.........bigots!,with a blind hatred for anything American,no matter what the case/point be.

What a far-fetched conclusion...bigots! You obviously need to fuel threads yourself so you an show up and lock them, because your post leads us to the reasons for the invasion, which leads us to flame wars about 9/11, Vietnam, Cambodia, Chile, Pearl Harbor, Wounded Knee and who knows where.

"with a blind hatred for anything American, no matter what the case/point be." :|

What on earth are you gibbering about?,this post leads to an Invasion?......locked ?..........Pearl Harbour?..........Hello is there any one out there that can make some kind of sense regarding Elmo's post?

Elmo do you like America/Americans?

never mind answering the fact you NEVER EVEN COMMENTED about this topic contents is enough to tell me that you don't give a rats ass about their contents,but if it were about US?UK soldiers abusing Iraqi's you be right at the front of the Anti Coalition bashing!!

[HELEX]

What is this thread," desperate measures part 1"? rofl

[weedman]

What is this thread," desperate measures part 1"? roflPosted by a mod :lol:

[Argyll]

What is this thread," desperate measures part 1"? rofl

No it's about Abuse,care to comment on their treatment Mr Anti American?
or do they simply not matter to you and your kind?

Which proves the point of this thread entirely!

[WARPIG]

Just out of curiousity.. when contract security personnel were killed and mutilated in Iraq.. I don't remember the outrage coming from the same people... is this a coincidence?

[HELEX]

Just out of curiousity.. when contract security personnel were killed and mutilated in Iraq.. I don't remember the outrage coming from the same people... is this a coincidence?

You are on the same level like jack Mehoff? :roll:

Dead people dont care about anithing going on, living do.
:cantbeli:

[LordHalbert]

I'm sick and tired of hearing about these Iraqi POW abuse reports.

If torturing prisoners can reveal information that can save lives, then I'm all for torturing.

For example, the French had no moral problems torturing Algerian POWs.

I'm sure there is some torture and abuse going on but this is war gad damnit !!

If I was charge of interogating prisoners, they'd all be singing within a week and spilling the beans !!!

Tools of a good interrogator:
* Bright desk lamp
* Various cutting implements
* Soldering iron
* Hammer - to hammer fingers one by one and break knee caps
* Various drugs to inhibit resistance
* Brass knuckles

Those Iraqi are sooo lucky I'm not in charge of interrogation !!!

[Argyll]

Just out of curiousity.. when contract security personnel were killed and mutilated in Iraq.. I don't remember the outrage coming from the same people... is this a coincidence?

You are on the same level like jack Mehoff? :roll:

Dead people dont care about anithing going on, living do.
:cantbeli:


And I told you on another thread you clown they were not all dead when the desecrations began....... :fork:

And this topic has nothing to do with abuse of Iraqi's either

[front]

Point 1.Do these stories carry the same sentiment by others as those abuse claim from Iraq?

No.

Point 2.Why not?........this is right on our doorsteps! And it could be your parents or Grandparents!!

Because those stories do not come qualified before by these statements of official government policy in relation to a powder keg which is called the Middle East:

"It's important for all nations, throughout the world, to treat any prisoners well. And that is something the United States always expects, and the United States always does."

Ari Fleischer
Statement on the Geneva Convention
May 7, 2002

"The standard for any type of interrogation of somebody in American custody is to be humane and to follow all international laws and accords dealing with this type of subject. That is precisely what has been happening, and exactly what will happen.”

Ari Fleischer
Press Briefing
March 3, 2003

"In free Iraq there will be no more wars of aggression against your neighbours, no more poison factories, no more executions of dissidents, no more torture chambers and rape rooms. The tyrant will soon be gone. The day of your liberation is near."

George W. Bush
March 17, 2003

"The United States does not permit, tolerate or condone any such torture by its employees under any circumstances."

Pentagon General Counsel William J Haynes II
Letter to Sen. Patrick Leahy
June 25, 2003

"We don't torture people in America and people who say we do simply know nothing about our country."

George W. Bush
Interview with Australian TV
October 18, 2003


That's why and you know it! Stop trying to deflect the issue.

"However, even Bush's Republican allies said damage to US standing was already done and would be difficult to repair.

"Unfortunately, in that part of the world, the fact that the president and the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff and other military people say 'this is unacceptable, we won't abide by it, the guilty will be punished' and so on, that kind of gets lost on them, and you can see why," said Sen Jon Kyl of Arizona, a member of the Senate Republican leadership. "

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3564335&thesection=news&thesubsection=world

cheers

front

[Tane Angle]

Argyll, while I think you know that I agree with you that it would be naive to think there wouldn't be bad apples in nearly any group, be it civilian, military, or whatever, I think you also know that I find there to be one major difference: The abuses in Iraq have a very high chance of getting people killed. Physical torture wasn't going to save anyone, and it's only given Sadr and Co. something more to use as an example of why they think Americans are bad. And if the ranks of the Mahdi Army and other groups now swell because of this screw up, and their attacks increase...well I think we'd all be pissed if someone is killed because of it.

I could be wrong, but I have a feeling you might think so too. It's your neck on the line the same as all of ours over here. My heads a bit old, so who cares, but I couldn't go back and say "Your son/husband/etc. died because of some guys at the prison screwed up." It was risky enough before, why did those guys have to increase the risk any more?

Anyways, have a good one all, and just some thoughts...

[Jack Mehoff]

Just out of curiousity.. when contract security personnel were killed and mutilated in Iraq.. I don't remember the outrage coming from the same people... is this a coincidence?

You are on the same level like jack Mehoff? :roll:

Dead people dont care about anithing going on, living do.
:cantbeli:
And do you suggest that we should KILL the insurgent POWs FIRST, then torture them. I mean, they are dead...right? :cantbeli:

[Tane Angle]

About torture, again, excerpts from two of my posts from earlier today.


Just a side note, there is a difference between coercion and torture. Torture is never acceptable, and doesn't actually work. That's the whole falacy about it; people think it gets good intelligence; it only gets invalid babble that only further confuses a situation. What's more, it actually usually strengthen's the person's resistance and resolve-if they survive one abusement, they begin to believe they can survive the next one, they get hope, they get confidence-all negative things for anyone looking for real intelligence.

Coercion-which does not cause lasting damage and is mainly about psycology-is sometimes necessary. I don't like it, but it is legal and necessary sometimes. Coercion is practiced every day in hundreds of thousands, in million of police stations every day in jails throughout the Western world.

Familiar example-good cop/bad cop. That's coercion.

Questioning lasting more than half an hour could easily be classified as coercion. I know law enforcement personnel who have, though only legal, sanctioned methods of talking (or not talking) to the person in the seat, secured valid, confirmed confessions and infortmation in a very short amount of time. I would put good money that up against those personnel, nearly anyone in the world would talk, and talk in truth.

Personally, I think US laws allow for question many hours too long, if we are trying to prevent any coercion from taking place. Of course, without any, detectives won't get anywhere.


Coercion is effectively mental torture-it works. It preys on fears. It is incredibly effective. Those people you cited are talking mainly about mental torture, no? Mental torture is coercion, that's what it amounts to.

Before torture, one is in fear, unsure that they will survive the coming pain. After torture, the person is built up by the fact that they did survive. They start saying "hey, I made it through that, I can make it through the next thing too." Coercion deprives the person from that confirmation that they can survive. It deprives them of any sense of hope. It is based on fear of what might happen, not the pain of what did.

With torture, people will say anything-anything-to make it stop. That's simply not reliable. The intelligence gathered has to lead the interrogators to the right person, not just any person. To the right safe house, not just some random house. They have to learn what the real target is, not just the name of any random person, place, or thing. Coercion offers a higher level of guarantee. It's not certain. But it's less uncertain that physical torture.

HELEX, they weren't dead. That's a fact. Also, Islamic law supposedly prohibits desecrating the dead, though Islamic law prohibits a lot of things that many violent Islamic groups have ignored.

Have a good one all, and just some thoughts...

[HELEX]

Just out of curiousity.. when contract security personnel were killed and mutilated in Iraq.. I don't remember the outrage coming from the same people... is this a coincidence?

You are on the same level like jack Mehoff? :roll:

Dead people dont care about anithing going on, living do.
:cantbeli:


And I told you on another thread you clown they were not all dead when the desecrations began....... :fork:

And this topic has nothing to do with abuse of Iraqi's either

Those burned didnt look very good, I doubt that they were alive. And hey, you did see those Bodys? No. You talked to those Insurgents? No.

What makes you thinking they were alive? Nothing....

[Jack Mehoff]

Just out of curiousity.. when contract security personnel were killed and mutilated in Iraq.. I don't remember the outrage coming from the same people... is this a coincidence?

You are on the same level like jack Mehoff? :roll:

Dead people dont care about anithing going on, living do.
:cantbeli:
And do you suggest that we should KILL the insurgent POWs FIRST, then torture them. I mean, they are dead...right? :cantbeli:

[Tane Angle]

HELEX, at least one, possibly two, died in the abuses. Alive at the start of them, killed sometime during the atrocities. We can confirm that now.

By the way, do you know how they attacked the convoy? That's pretty sick in itself. Old tactic, but still sick and wrong.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[HELEX]

Just out of curiousity.. when contract security personnel were killed and mutilated in Iraq.. I don't remember the outrage coming from the same people... is this a coincidence?

You are on the same level like jack Mehoff? :roll:

Dead people dont care about anithing going on, living do.
:cantbeli:
And do you suggest that we should KILL the insurgent POWs FIRST, then torture them. I mean, they are dead...right? :cantbeli:

Of course I suggest not to kill or torture anybody. This question is so stupid it isnt even worth answering! :cantbeli:

[HELEX]

HELEX, at least one, possibly two, died in the abuses. Alive at the start of them, killed sometime during the atrocities. We can confirm that now.

By the way, do you know how they attacked the convoy? That's pretty sick in itself. Old tactic, but still sick and wrong.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

So when you can confirm it, do it. Show me evidence.

[Argyll]

Just out of curiousity.. when contract security personnel were killed and mutilated in Iraq.. I don't remember the outrage coming from the same people... is this a coincidence?

You are on the same level like jack Mehoff? :roll:

Dead people dont care about anithing going on, living do.
:cantbeli:


And I told you on another thread you clown they were not all dead when the desecrations began....... :fork:

And this topic has nothing to do with abuse of Iraqi's either

Those burned didnt look very good, I doubt that they were alive. And hey, you did see those Bodys? No. You talked to those Insurgents? No.

What makes you thinking they were alive? Nothing....

How about classified reports,and eyewitness accounts.
Also my boss was a personal friend of 2 of them,and he got the heads up on the whole incident.........something nobody here outside of the Military will see or hear,he's not the type to lie about things either.

What makes you think they were NOT alive?......again they were not all killed instantly when their vehicle was attacked.
Do you think that their families and friends share your views that just because,they were dead/dying that the mutilation and desecration of their bodies was nothing to get worked up about?..........this **** about the dead not feeling anything coz their dead just shows you are in contempt about what happened to them.

I wonder how you would have felt and reacted if they were German Nationals .........and how do you know for sure that the 2 GSG9 guys were not similarily desecrated?...........you don't?

[Uninen]

You cant justify your own crimes with crimes of others. :cantbeli:

[Tane Angle]

Let me run down to Blockbuster and get a copy of the footage.

From both Iraqis who were present at the time, either taking part in the atrocities or who witnessed it, video footage showing a hand moving, possibly in an attempt to signal that he is still alive to any friendly forces watching (which I do not have the ability to put this message board, sorry), as well as from other sources, there is an extremely strong indication that at least one of the BSC personnel, possibly two, were still alive at the start of the atrocities.

Most of these things were widely reported a month ago in the news. You can believe them, you can believe me, but whatever floats your boat on this.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Argyll]

Tane I agree with you 100% about the repurcussions on the original events,however this topic was to bring the worrms to the surface,to see if the same reactions and sentiments are afforded to the elderly..abuse is abuse no matter where or on whom.

The reaction I got from this topic is as exactly as I predicted,people care less about this topic's contents beacause they are not Iraqi's and the abuse was not carried out by American or British soldiers........they are not headline grabbing cases..........but they are sad and disturbing to those victims and their families none the less,and it is again an establishment breakdown in their regulations and staff discipline.

[Argyll]

HELEX, at least one, possibly two, died in the abuses. Alive at the start of them, killed sometime during the atrocities. We can confirm that now.

By the way, do you know how they attacked the convoy? That's pretty sick in itself. Old tactic, but still sick and wrong.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

So when you can confirm it, do it. Show me evidence.

HELEX you are seriously trading on a thin ice with these comments.
You just cannot accept it when people tell you differently,from what they have heard and seen,I was beggining to mellow to you,but I really find these comments to be in the worst taste possible,you just do not get it,you are being totally argumentative for the hell of it,I feel sorry for you man.....because you must have had a real ****ty childhood to be such an asshole now.
I already mentioned that the reports are classified,yet you still make these assinine comments....... :cantbeli:

[HELEX]

HELEX, at least one, possibly two, died in the abuses. Alive at the start of them, killed sometime during the atrocities. We can confirm that now.

By the way, do you know how they attacked the convoy? That's pretty sick in itself. Old tactic, but still sick and wrong.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

So when you can confirm it, do it. Show me evidence.

HELEX you are seriously trading on a thin ice with these comments.
You just cannot accept it when people tell you differently,from what they have heard and seen,I was beggining to mellow to you,but I really find these comments to be in the worst taste possible,you just do not get it,you are being totally argumentative for the hell of it,I feel sorry for you man.....because you must have had a real ****ty childhood to be such an asshole now.
I already mentioned that the reports are classified,yet you still make these assinine comments....... :cantbeli:

If there were rumors or the possibility that those guys were alive, the media would love to bring it. Why there was nothing?

[XASA]

I was in a military intelligence unit and was trained in interrogation techniques and can say without hesitation torture only makes a prisoner tell you what they think you want to hear, while proper interrogation techniques without torture will get a prisoner to tell you what you need to hear.

The numbnuts who abused those Iraqis were amatuers, which means the entire system has to be examine as to why amatuers were put in charge of prisoners. Once identified, those who were responsible for allowing these amatuers to commit these vile acts should be disciplined.

As witness here on militaryphotos.net, the negative psywar effect has made the occupation even more difficult and the result will be felt for years to come as many young Iraqis and Arabs will no doubt be motivated by these heinous acts to join the insurgents. As Tane already noted, the result will be more deaths on both sides

It also gives critics of America, like many here on the forum, an opportunity to continue with their attack on American policy, politics, culture and lifestyle by linking the horrid actions of a few to the many good deeds done by the many, who have never wavered in following international law.

Fortunately for the world, American military policy and how it conducts itself in war is honorable, if it wasn't Iraq and Afghanistan would be desolate and barren wasteland. The restraint shown by the American military towards civilians has been commendable; however, the force brought to bear on those who threatened its civilians should make all its enemies pause.

There will always be a few bad apples; however, anyone who argues that the American military purposely violates the Geneva Convention is full of sh**.

[WARPIG]

You cant justify your own crimes with crimes of others. :cantbeli:

I never tried to justify anyones crime. And even though they are not my crimes... I was more than willing to burden the shame of them.

Thanks for replying in such a predictable manner. Further proving the point of this thread.

[Argyll]

There was ,the same day it happened,the media who were there said that they seen movement from at least one or two of the guys inside and outside the vehicle.
How do you think the driver got out onto the deck where petrol was then poured over the top of him?

[LordHalbert]

From what I read about US soldiers tortured in Vietnam, the POWs that survived said that they told the truth when tortured - they couldn't help it.

Can anyone verify this ?

[fdt]

There was ,the same day it happened,the media who were there said that they seen movement from at least one or two of the guys inside and outside the vehicle.
How do you think the driver got out onto the deck where petrol was then poured over the top of him? Sorry to say, but You got lured into this...
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/7691/05030043small.jpg

[Argyll]

There was ,the same day it happened,the media who were there said that they seen movement from at least one or two of the guys inside and outside the vehicle.
How do you think the driver got out onto the deck where petrol was then poured over the top of him? Sorry to say, but You got lured into this...
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/7691/05030043small.jpg

Horse or Bull?

No I started this topic to see the reactions,it has somewhat gotright off the subject matter,but I got the reactions I expected mate..the rest is correct!

[XASA]

From what I read about US soldiers tortured in Vietnam, the POWs that survived said that they told the truth when tortured - they couldn't help it.

Can anyone verify this ?

The POWs told the North Vietnamese what they thought their captors wanted to hear after months and even years of mistreatment, starvation and torture. Few "talked" upon immediate capture. These coerced confessions were more often not timely nor good military intelligence. Also, communists-- Russians, Koreans, Chinese and Vietnamese to name a few-- are more interested in making their prisoners see the errors of their ways and converting to their way of thinking than finding out what is your emergency frequency. Physical coercion is part of that process but most of it is psychological, which takes time.

There are several books and autobiographies about the American POW experience which go into great detail the methods used by both the interrogator, trying to get a confession, and the prisoner, trying to not disclose information while trying to stay alive.

[Trident-za]

This thread does raise some interesting points. Everything about Iraq is being analyzed through some weird "special filter".... If something happens in Zimbabwe or Germany or Brazil, who cares.... but if its in Iraq, the whole world starts shrieking because now its "important". Partly its because of the complete worl focus on Iraq, partly its the usual desire to either praise or condem the US.

But this is nothing new really.... when terrorist acts were being perpertrated (prior to 9/11) in Ireland/Israel/Congo etc. etc. an awful lot of countries politely looked the other way.

[Argyll]

This thread does raise some interesting points. Everything about Iraq is being analyzed through some weird "special filter".... If something happens in Zimbabwe or Germany or Brazil, who cares.... but if its in Iraq, the whole world starts shrieking because now its "important". Partly its because of the complete worl focus on Iraq, partly its the usual desire to either praise or condem the US.

But this is nothing new really.... when terrorist acts were being perpertrated (prior to 9/11) in Ireland/Israel/Congo etc. etc. an awful lot of countries politely looked the other way.

Congrats mate that is exactly the whole point of this thread.

[fdt]

Horse or Bull?
This particular item is horse's... :lol: Yesterday I've taken my son for his first horse ride...

I took this photo to have a bottomline for some Militaryphotos' discussions.

[ibstolidude]

Just out of curiousity.. when contract security personnel were killed and mutilated in Iraq.. I don't remember the outrage coming from the same people... is this a coincidence?

You are on the same level like jack Mehoff? :roll:

Dead people dont care about anithing going on, living do.
:cantbeli:


And I told you on another thread you clown they were not all dead when the desecrations began....... :fork:

And this topic has nothing to do with abuse of Iraqi's either

Those burned didnt look very good, I doubt that they were alive. And hey, you did see those Bodys? No. You talked to those Insurgents? No.

What makes you thinking they were alive? Nothing....
with out being foul nor blabbing too much - there is no question some survived, a simply view of the videos of that incident will reviel their movements.

[ibstolidude]

HELEX, at least one, possibly two, died in the abuses. Alive at the start of them, killed sometime during the atrocities. We can confirm that now.

By the way, do you know how they attacked the convoy? That's pretty sick in itself. Old tactic, but still sick and wrong.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...
actually Tane he and several others insist the BWS gentlemen were in Fallujah on "offensive" operations.

[Tane Angle]

Of course. Because those BSC folks just love to drive around Fallujah looking for kicks.

Argyll, I think we have all said exactly what would be expected of each of us. p-)

I still say that as tragic, horrible, and morally repugnant those other horrors are, they didn't have the same widespread ramifications.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[WARPIG]

Of course. Because those BSC folks just love to drive around Fallujah looking for kicks.

Argyll, I think we have all said exactly what would be expected of each of us. p-)

I still say that as tragic, horrible, and morally repugnant those other horrors are, they didn't have the same widespread ramifications.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...
I agree. Not to mention that both of the acts we are talking about are direct violations of Geneva and Hague conventions. Not the first time these kinds of acts have happened but some countries seem to get more press than others.

[Argyll]

and with the points having been made and the topic serving it's purpose,I'm going to close it off.

I got the response I anticipated from the quarter I'd expected.

Thanks for making this part somewhat Interesting guys. ;)