Sheehan throws in the towel

[AFG]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/28/sheehan/index.html


(CNN) -- Cindy Sheehan, the California mother who became an anti-war leader after her son was killed in Iraq, declared Monday she was walking away from the peace movement.

She said her son died "for nothing."

Sheehan achieved national attention when she camped outside President Bush's home in Crawford, Texas, throughout August 2005 to demand a meeting with the president over her son's death.

While Bush ignored her, the vigil made her one of the most prominent figures among opponents of the war.

But in a Web diary posted to the liberal online community Daily Kos on Monday, Sheehan said she was exhausted by the personal, financial and emotional toll of the past two years.

She wrote that she is disillusioned by the failure of Democratic politicians to bring the unpopular war to an end and tired of a peace movement she said "often puts personal egos above peace and human life."

Casey Sheehan, a 24-year-old Army specialist, was killed in an April 2004 battle in Baghdad. His death prompted his mother to found Gold Star Families for Peace.

But in Monday's 1,200-word letter, titled, "Good Riddance Attention Whore," Sheehan announced that her son "did indeed die for nothing."

"I have tried every since he died to make his sacrifice meaningful," she wrote. "Casey died for a country which cares more about who will be the next American Idol than how many people will be killed in the next few months while Democrats and Republicans play politics with human lives.

"It is so painful to me to know that I bought into this system for so many years, and Casey paid the price for that allegiance. I failed my boy and that hurts the most."

Cindy Sheehan's sister, DeDe Miller, told CNN that the group would continue working for humanitarian causes, but drop its involvement in the anti-war movement. As for her sister's letter, Miller said, "She cried for quite a bit after writing it."

Sheehan warned that the United States was becoming "a fascist corporate wasteland," and that onetime allies among Bush's Democratic opposition turned on her when she began trying to hold them accountable for bringing the 4-year-old war to a close.

In the meantime, she said her antiwar activism had cost her her marriage, that she had put the survivor's benefits paid for her son's death and all her speaking and book fees into the cause and that she now owed extensive medical bills.

"I am going to take whatever I have left and go home," she wrote. "I am going to go home and be a mother to my surviving children and try to regain some of what I have lost.

"I will try to maintain and nurture some very positive relationships that I have found in the journey that I was forced into when Casey died and try to repair some of the ones that have fallen apart since I began this single-minded crusade to try and change a paradigm that is now, I am afraid, carved in immovable, unbendable and rigidly mendacious marble."

i'm sorry for the loss of her son, but i'm glad she's done.

[-DarthMaul-]

she does make a point:

"Casey died for a country which cares more about who will be the next American Idol than how many people will be killed in the next few months while Democrats and Republicans play politics with human lives."

More to the part about caring more about American Idol than casualties, than about the second part.

[chuckster]

Maybe there was a good reason nobody took her seriously, like maybe SHE'S AN IDIOT!

[Hunterhr]

She wrote that she is disillusioned by the failure of Democratic politicians to bring the unpopular war to an end and tired of a peace movement she said "often puts personal egos above peace and human life."

Coming from her, I find this hilarious.

[tecumseh11]

All she wanted was for Dubya to hug her when she was camped outside his house. But would he? WOULD HE?

[Merfeller]

A lot of people got political capital by appearing with Sheehan. In the end every single one of them played her and moved on. She learned a hard lesson about politics. I actually kinda feel sorry for the old girl.

[Cralis]

I feel sorry for her son, I'm pretty sure he's rolling in his grave. At one point they had a letter or something from him, and it was pretty clear that he knew the choice he had made and was proud of it.

Sure wish I could find the link to that again.

[steelfury]

Love that CNN left out the end of the message...

"This is my resignation letter as the "face" of the American anti-war movement. This is not my "Checkers" moment, because I will never give up trying to help people in the world who are harmed by the empire of the good old US of A, but I am finished working in, or outside of this system. This system forcefully resists being helped and eats up the people who try to help it. I am getting out before it totally consumes me or anymore people that I love and the rest of my resources.

Good-bye America ...you are not the country that I love and I finally realized no matter how much I sacrifice, I can’t make you be that country unless you want it."

Typical!

[~center~]

^^^ That really says it all right there.

RIP to the fallen.

[gaijinsamurai]

Good riddance. Now if only Michael Moore and Rosie O' Donnel would shut their fat mouths.

[Kant]

I like the guy saying her son must be rolling in his grave, because he read a letter or 'something'. People accuse Sheehan of trying to politicise her sons death, yet when they do it it's because they somehow know how he felt.

[Ordie]

She's probably emotionally and physically drained.

I can't blame her.

For right or wrong, her action in Crawford can be seen as a watershed event in the shifting of opinions about the war.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

If my son or daughter had died in the war I would have given Bush hell as well. Or worse.

Although I can't always agree with her actions, she was expressing those freedoms we care about in the US and which have come under fire from the Bush administration.

She is less deserving of military people's hate than those "leaders" who willfully sacrifice soldier's lives in pursuit of their own political gain.

Support the troops is more than a bumper sticker.

[pistol]

Love that CNN left out the end of the message...

"This is my resignation letter as the "face" of the American anti-war movement. This is not my "Checkers" moment, because I will never give up trying to help people in the world who are harmed by the empire of the good old US of A, but I am finished working in, or outside of this system. This system forcefully resists being helped and eats up the people who try to help it. I am getting out before it totally consumes me or anymore people that I love and the rest of my resources.

Good-bye America ...you are not the country that I love and I finally realized no matter how much I sacrifice, I can’t make you be that country unless you want it."

Typical!

What's typical?

[mattnwnc03]

she does make a point:


More to the part about caring more about American Idol than casualties, than about the second part.

i think she right about that. its sad were more concerned about 2 whales that have wandered up a river than 2 missing soldiers.

[helomech]

Another stooge for Sharpton and Jackson is all she was/is;she's done nothing more than corrode the memory of Casey Sheehan

[SBL]

I can't help but feel some pity when I think of her, but I'm glad to hear she's ducking out.

[helomech]

I can't help but feel some pity when I think of her, but I'm glad to hear she's ducking out.

Somehow,I've never felt pity for her,but I do have sympathy for the rest of the family for the loss of Casey;her behavior was embarassing for a parent who was supposed to be in mourning;you didn't see other families who lost loved in this Long War carry on like she did

[ltrowley]

so what....

leave her in peace, shes lost a son, been used a poster girl for various movements, used as a political cred tool by many people, been made a farce of in various realms of the public eye....so what. seeya cindy.. good luck.

[metalgolem]

Casey Sheehan was an honourable soldier who gave the
ultimate sacrifice for his country and the freedoms that
come with such sacrifices in war.

Cindy Sheehan, in her attempts to find some meaning to her son's death,
succeeded in making her antiwar stance known.

It almost seems as though her agenda was more about her than
her son.

I am positive her son was an intelligent man and able to make
decisions on his own. That being the case, he as a soldier, had
to know that there was a possibility that someday he might give
his life serving his country. Through his basic training and the rest
of his military career, he certainly would have known the dangers
of his job.

Upon his death, his mother made a decision to politicize her views
and in some way she dishonered his service.

I'm not questioning her right to free speech and I'm certainly not questioning
Casey Sheehan's service to his country. I'm glad she's giving up so that now
her son may rest in peace.

[Fargin]

Some gave all, she only gave her son.

[8thidpathfinderpower]

she does make a point:


More to the part about caring more about American Idol than casualties, than about the second part.

What I have been saying all along...... I am not a fan of Sheehans actions, but I understand why she done what she did. What I really find totally disgusting with the war dragging on, is the little political games being played out up in Washington with no confidence votes, and wanting to cut war funding. The quickest way to end the war and bring people home soon, is to support the war effort. Get the troops the stuff they need to do their mision, put egos aside, and let the troops do the job we ordered them to do.

All BS aside, it would be like commiting suicide if we pulled out now. If prewar intel was right about AQ not being active in Iraq before the invasion, I bet a million dollars they sure now. Not to mention,all the splinter groups that would be formed, and attacks on US intrests through out the world.

Cindy Sheehan could not have put the current political climate any better...america is more concerned about the next singing parrot to get crowned, than we are about our own government. And, that is disgusting.

[flyingv]

I'm sure her buddy Hugo Chavez can make room for her in his socialist paradise.

[Dominique]

First off I'd like to say I'm sorry for the loss of her son. While no one should have to suffer the loss of a child, that's the way of the world. I also completely disagree with the way she went about showing her displeasure with the current administration, I do agree with some of the points she made in her letter. Even a broke clock is right twice a day.

Mrs. Sheehan got a very hard lesson in the way things really work. While most of the talking heads on both sides of the political aisle are quick to flap there gums, point fingers, and and accuse the other side of wrong doing, very few of them are more than loud mouthed blowhards who are out to make themselves look good, and make a buck while doing it. I hoping she takes some time to go home and contemplate exactly what's happened, and seriously considers what's she's done. If she truely feals that her son's life was wasted, there are more constructive ways she can still honor his memeory without becoming a stooge for the "if the government's envolved, it must be wrong" crowd.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Dear, Cindy sweetheart...we hate to say we told you so....but well girlfriend, we so did. We told you that he was no good, and you were all "no, he's different". Well, you've learned a valuable lesson. They'll talk, and they'll smile, but they just want to put their hand up your sweater - and as soon as they get what they want...vooom! They're gone. I know he told you he wanted to end the war, and that got your shirt off...but he didn't end it, did he? In fact -he just used you to lengthen the war - the exact opposite of what he said he wanted when you first met. The bastard. And the cameras aren't showing up any more, are they? And what about the money - I bet it's gone too? Here, take this tissue...stop crying already...he's just not worth it. He hasn't even called you back, has he? Has he?

[lider_r]

some of the comments on here are unbelievable.


Sure, you dont agree with what she has to say but there is no need to degrade her, call her an idiot, tell her she was going against her son's wishes (as if any of you could know that anyway).


Have any of you lost your children in this conflict? Can you say you know what its like?

Why is it that when a family loses a member in iraq yet continues to support the war then their view is repected, but any view contrary to that is disrespected, insulted and dragged through the mud?

[Jobu]

Sorry for her loss but her motivations were clearly about her leftist activism, not grief for her son.

I'm glad she's retiring.

[lider_r]

Sorry for her loss but her motivations were clearly about her leftist activism, not grief for her son.


what a f*cking disgraceful thing to say.

How do you know what she thinks and what her motivations are?

Why shouldn't she be an activitist if she feels her son died for war based on deception and lies, regardless of weather you agree with her stance or not?

If anybody is using her sons death to further their political aims is the right wing loonbags. They call her unpatriotic, unamerican and a disgrace to her sons memory all so they can try and paint anybody who is against the war as morally flawed- even people who have lost their children to the conflict.

Somebody who has lost a loved one to this f*ck up known as Iraq should have more a platform to speak on then some right wing stain on fox news who has sacrificed zilch.

[Jobu]

How do you know what she thinks and what her motivations are?



By her actions and words. I think she's made it very clear.

[Roanoke]

what a f*cking disgraceful thing to say.

How do you know what she thinks and what her motivations are?

Her actions speak for themselves. She used her son as a stepping stone to infamy. How about you stop being so defensive about her and move on?

[Dominique]

Since I've never met her, I can't say if she's an idiot or not. but, I do think she was living in sort of naive fantasy world (where nothing bad happens, and we can all work out our problems if we just talk about it). She's gotten a very strong dose of reality, and is just now begining to see how things really are.

[Merfeller]

what a f*cking disgraceful thing to say.

How do you know what she thinks and what her motivations are?

Why shouldn't she be an activitist if she feels her son died for war based on deception and lies, regardless of weather you agree with her stance or not?

If anybody is using her sons death to further their political aims is the right wing loonbags. They call her unpatriotic, unamerican and a disgrace to her sons memory all so they can try and paint anybody who is against the war as morally flawed- even people who have lost their children to the conflict.

Somebody who has lost a loved one to this f*ck up known as Iraq should have more a platform to speak on then some right wing stain who has sacrificed zilch.

You're way out of order and you're missing the point. Sheehan has an absolute right to become an activist and of course she's got a right to be angry about her son's death. But she went way beyond that and aligned herself with people who hijacked her anger. She admits as much in her "resignation letter." At some point, it became a media circus and she just kept getting deeper and deeper into it, until her "cause" eclipsed her son's death. I think that's what Jobu was getting at.

As for others losing family around here - my family has lost two, both my cousins, and both people that I grew up with. Of course it changes your opinion about the war when you suffer a loss. It makes you rethink things. In our family's case, we chose to keep it private and not make a media production out of it. Same as most families who have lost members in this or any other war. After all, those who died were soldiers. Get it? But what would I know? According to you, I'm just a "stain."

[lider_r]

You're way out of order and you're missing the point. Sheehan has an absolute right to become an activist and of course she's got a right to be angry about her son's death. But she went way beyond that and aligned herself with people who hijacked her anger. She admits as much in her "resignation letter." At some point, it became a media circus and she just kept getting deeper and deeper into it, until her "cause" eclipsed her son's death. I think that's what Jobu was getting at.

Which cause? The cause to stop more peoples family members in an unjust war? Its a cause which goes against the war hungry few- thats why its always being denigrated. If Sheehan had been holding protests telling everybody to stay the course and not give in to the terrorists or the commie-left and received huge publicity from it then we would be hearing about how brave a lady she is.


As for others losing family around here - my family has lost two, both my cousins, and both people that I grew up with. Of course it changes your opinion about the war when you suffer a loss. It makes you rethink things. In our family's case, we chose to keep it private and not make a media production out of it.

thats your choice, just like its the choice of other familes to make a media production out of their situation.


Same as most families who have lost members in this or any other war. After all, those who died were soldiers. Get it? But what would I know? According to you, I'm just a "stain."

They weren't just soldiers to people who have to bear their loss. Nowhere did i refer to you as a stain, refer back to my post and say i accredited that well deserved title to people like those amoungst the ranks of fox news.

[ronnieraygun]

A lot of people got political capital by appearing with Sheehan. In the end every single one of them played her and moved on. She learned a hard lesson about politics. I actually kinda feel sorry for the old girl.

QFT. I'm unsure why people believe she came up with all that stuff herself. She was used by a lot of different people who took advantage of her grief/naivete/confusion.

"She wrote that she is disillusioned by the failure of Democratic politicians to bring the unpopular war to an end and tired of a peace movement she said 'often puts personal egos above peace and human life.'"
---That was a hard lesson for her to learn, at any age.

[lider_r]

Her actions speak for themselves. She used her son as a stepping stone to infamy.

Your suggestion that her motivation was one of merely obtaining fame is typical of someone who can't show empathy towards others and has to belittle them due to the absence of any mature critisim



How about you stop being so defensive about her and move on?


How about i defend who i like, when i like and YOU move on. If you dont want to read it, then dont.

[socom6]

At last she has come to her senses! Mrs Sheehan overplayed her hand as a spokeswoman for the antiwar movement because of her son's death in combat of which I am sorry just like all those US servicemen and women killed in the line of duty. She made it look like Casey Sheehan was drafted and forced into the front lines and killed ignominiously as if he was like cannon fodder.

Because of her apparent naivety she was used, and in that letter I see she knew she was used by the Left who themselves was shamed because she upstaged them in their game then turned around and got publicity from her camping at Crawford Ranch and meeting with her... now thats typical.

Any way Im glad she is done with this, it was stretching a bit too far time to move on.

[Roanoke]

...typical of someone who can't show empathy towards others and has to belittle them due to the absence of any mature critisim

Hey look! Irony!

[2Sheds_Jackson]

some of the comments on here are unbelievable.


Sure, you dont agree with what she has to say but there is no need to degrade her, call her an idiot, tell her she was going against her son's wishes (as if any of you could know that anyway).


Have any of you lost your children in this conflict? Can you say you know what its like?

Why is it that when a family loses a member in iraq yet continues to support the war then their view is repected, but any view contrary to that is disrespected, insulted and dragged through the mud?

The world is full of people who've been stirred to action due to any number of horrendous personal tragedies. But that does not relieve us of the responsibility to logically asses their words and deeds, and to judge them (yes >gasp< judge them) accordingly. By my estimation - judged by what she has said and done - she's a goddamn flake - flailing away at every loony left gathering like some deranged Don Quixote or Captain Ahab. As sad as losing a son to war is, it doesn't grant her sainthood, shore up her argument, or make her any less of a walking freak show.

[Cloud in the Wind]

A 1200 word "Resignation" letter? Okay, maybe Sheehan feels the need to justify her frustration to her devoted followers. But, were it me, and were I ready to quit a position or movement that I was completely fed up with, I think I could get the same point across in two words; "Piss Off"

I guess my point is that I'm suspiscious that, like her public, selfgratifying displays of the past, this Resignation is more about repositioning herself back into the spot light. Rather than actually quitting her citizenship.

Furthermore, had she addressed it to me personally, I would have responded, "Jeez, you drama queen. You could have saved myself and yourself the time and energy by just forwarding your mail to your new address in Whatever-Other-Country-Will-Have-You. I would have gotten the point."

[Mastermind]

I read her entire "Diary entry". I came away with the very sad feeling that she is an intelligent, deep thinking person who is in an agony of dispair and has been for quite some time. She misplaced her personal agony over her son's death into some form of angst I can not really fathom. But, she decided to act on that energy of grief and dispair and, like anyone who strike out in such a state, it took her and led her in directions she had no way of controlling.

I watched in vietnam as kids just like her son died. I know, if I had been taken during my war, it would have devastated my Mom. I now have a Grandson in the U.S. Marines. My own son finished a tour in the U.S. Coastguard. I can not fathom how I would feel if I lost one of them for any reason.

So, now, I have to give poor Cindy a bit of slack for her actions and the way she responded as the media and politicians used her. I don't agree with her stance on the war, or her methods...what ever...but, I do feel genuine sympathy for her.

[Hollis]

I think between 2Sheds and Mastermind my opinion of this is starting shape up. I don't know if I can feel sorrow for her. I can for the lost of her son, but not the actions some time now. Maybe some others who have been sucked into the same web will start figuring it out.

[sgthanzo]

Her son didn't die for nothing.

She was able to push the envelope as far as she's done -- all because someone else's son(s) and/or daughter(s) had sacrificed and died for the freedom she so ably displayed.

Casey Sheehan's death and the deaths of those who'd served the thin red line keep the stars and stripes in our flag waving.

RIP, Casey -- your death gives meaning to the country we have today.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

I think between 2Sheds and Mastermind my opinion of this is starting shape up. I don't know if I can feel sorrow for her. I can for the lost of her son, but not the actions some time now. Maybe some others who have been sucked into the same web will start figuring it out.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge her any grief she feels for her son. It's just that IMHO she's still an idiot. The same way that others who have suffered terrible losses and, for example, joined a cult - and believe that aliens are coming inside a comet & put on the Nike's or drink the kool-aid are worthy of both our pity and our derision. Well except those loons only got themselves killed - in my opinion Cindy did worse than that. Her anti-war agitating has had exactly the opposite effect she intended.

IMHO her activities have only lengthened the war, and gotten more people killed - by showing the enemy our lack of resolve, giving them more cause to hang on. It was completely predictable. I've said all along that all this anti-war BS was only that - just useless political grandstanding designed to get the left back into power. Now whaddya know, exactly on cue, they're in power, and the war goes on unabated. It was all a carefully orchestrated smokescreen executed at our troops expense - with Cindy leading the parade. I'm an idiot, and even I could recoginze what was going on - why couldn't she?

A sampling of her wares - which, with the perspective of time, appear even more ludicrous than when they were first uttered;




The biggest terrorist in the world is George W. Bush

I was told my son was killed in the war on terror. He was killed by George Bush's war of terror on the world.

President Bush says we're safer fighting them there than over here. Why are we safer because 120,000 civilians are dead? What makes their babies less precious than ours?

One of the bogus reasons that George Bush gives for this invasion (and) occupation of Iraq is to make America safer -- and Katrina exposed that clearly he has made America more vulnerable through his policies in Iraq

What they're saying, too, is like, it's OK for Israel to have nuclear weapons. But Iran or Syria better not get nuclear weapons. ... It's OK for Israel to occupy Palestine, ... for the United States to occupy Iraq, but it's not OK for Syria to be in Lebanon. They're a bunch of (expletive) hypocrites

This... this... 'coyote' is like, just another tool of this wicked administration, ... I mean are we supposed to accept the fact that it's okay for a predator like this to have nuclear weapons but it's not okay for say, a road runner or a baby harp seal? Coyotes like Wile E. are already waging nuclear war on defenseless road runners every day. I believe the pictures taken by my undercover operatives speak for themselves

The election of Nov. 2 was not George Bush's accountability moment. This is George Bush's accountability moment, and I'm not leaving Crawford until we hold him accountable

My son was killed in 2004. I am not paying my taxes for 2004. You killed my son, George Bush, and I don't owe you a penny...you give my son back and I'll pay my taxes. Come after me (for back taxes) and we'll put this war on trial

All you have to do is look at New Orleans to see how vulnerable he's made our country

I admire President Chavez for his strength to resist the United States. Instead, Bush is waging a war of terrorism against the world

We really need to stop the imperialist tendencies of countries like the United States and Great Britain

I've always admired President Chavez for standing up to imperialism and the meddling of the American government in South America.

[The Punisher]

LOL- comparing Iran to a baby harp seal? Maybe it's just me, but I've never heard a baby harp seal calling for a country to be wiped off the map, or calling America "The Great Satan" or yelling "Death to America."
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r75/thepunisher45acp/ahmadinejad.jpghttp://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r75/thepunisher45acp/harp-seal-baby.jpg
I don't quite see the resemblance.

[Flounder]

Squint your eyes a little and there's an eerie resemblance......same beady eyes, same facial whiskers....

[California Joe]

I feel bad for her. That's all. I don't really think she had any effect on anything, so her notoriety is largely a media creation fed by her spastic way of dealing with her personal grief. To call her names and act like she was a real player in this international clusterf*ck is simply retarded and bad manners. I don't think she influenced anything. She was a soundbyte on the news that got 15 minutes.

[Hollis]

2 Sheds, I was agreeing with you but probably did not state it well enough. I think CJ pretty much summed it up.

I think what she actually did was trivialize her son's sacrifice. When you hear "Sheehad", next thought is "Cindy", not the name of her son. Being a dog or pony in a political dog and pony show is not something a person wants to be.

[8thidpathfinderpower]

Well, as I stated before in my earlier post, I feel sympathy towards her for losing her son. But,she does need to know that her son did not die in vain. He died defending our country. He knew the hazards when he joined the military. So, I do not think his death was in vain.

[Dakota435]

Well, as I stated before in my earlier post, I feel sympathy towards her for losing her son. But,she does need to know that her son did not die in vain. He died defending our country. He knew the hazards when he joined the military. So, I do not think his death was in vain.

It will have been if our surrender to AQ crowd gets their way...

[jizzmonkey]

so what....

leave her in peace, shes lost a son, been used a poster girl for various movements, used as a political cred tool by many people, been made a farce of in various realms of the public eye....so what. seeya cindy.. good luck.


Exactly!! and it was ALL her own f*cking fault..am I supposed to feel sorry for her??!! sorry no sympathy here.

[ltrowley]

my point was that despite all the noise she's made nothing has been accomplished except tarnishing her son's name and a few political poses. theres no need to keep flogging a dead horse. you dont have to feel sorry for her, just leave her alone, shes made a series of tragic mistakes, nobody's perfect.

[Sabre]

Being in the UK, I've not seen or heard of her 'campaigning'. The only exposure I have had is from people bad mouthing her or using her name as a sort of 'liberal bogeywoman'.

What I would say is that whatever the hell you believe about her, there used to be a concept of being polite. I was always told if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything. I don't always apply this rule (particularly with reference to wankers spouting off), but I would hope that some of the young blokes in here would realise that this rule definitely applies to a grieving mother. If you don't, then there is no hope left for the future of what used to be called 'men'....

[lider_r]

It will have been if our surrender to AQ crowd gets their way...

oh brother.....


exactly how many AQ fighters do you think there are in Iraq? There are obviously more in there now then there was prior to the invasion, but:


WASHINGTON – It may be true that Iraq is shaping a new generation of terrorist leaders, and that the US presence there is a "cause célèbre" for jihadists, as a recently declassified US intelligence assessment holds.
But that doesn't mean the Iraqi insurgency is a wholly owned Al Qaeda subsidiary. Foreign fighters make up a relatively small slice of the forces targeting the US military in Iraq. Most insurgents are native Iraqi Sunni Islamists or former members of the old Baath party regime

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1003/p03s03-woiq.html


and besides, the rational for the invasion was not to destroy AQ. It was to remove Saddam, remove his 'WMD's' and 'free the world from grave danger'.

Mission accomplished was called long ago anyhow so why should the troops have to keep dodging bullets in the slums of a hell hole whose inhabitants all hate them and want them to leave? It doesnt sound like your supporting the war on terror at all, it sounds like your helping in the effort to maintain a serious misallocation of valuable military personal and resources.

[Red]

Well, as I stated before in my earlier post, I feel sympathy towards her for losing her son. But,she does need to know that her son did not die in vain. He died defending our country. He knew the hazards when he joined the military. So, I do not think his death was in vain.

Defending the country? I didn't know Saddam was attacking the US. Can anyone please explain to me what the war in Iraq has to do with defending freedom.

[SOG]

I like the guy saying her son must be rolling in his grave, because he read a letter or 'something'. People accuse Sheehan of trying to politicise her sons death, yet when they do it it's because they somehow know how he felt.

they are simply rebuking her choice in the matter based on evidence written by her son himself. correcting a nut job who goes around spouting absolute **** is hardly political.


i think she right about that. its sad were more concerned about 2 whales that have wandered up a river than 2 missing soldiers.

maybe the whales got some decent coverage yes, but we are not concerned with two whales moreso than soldiers. last time i checked thousands of people are not trying to get the whales to safety nor are they spending millions or trillions trying to do so. what the news media decides to broadcast is their agenda, not what is on the minds of most americans.


Good riddance. Now if only Michael Moore and Rosie O' Donnel would shut their fat mouths.

their time will come. hell, rosie mcdonalds time has already come. put in her place by a hot repub on the view. thats right bitch, we dont have to stand around while you spew **** every day.


All she wanted was for Dubya to hug her when she was camped outside his house. But would he? WOULD HE?

dubya is rather a krewl bastard.


A lot of people got political capital by appearing with Sheehan. In the end every single one of them played her and moved on. She learned a hard lesson about politics. I actually kinda feel sorry for the old girl.

i would feel sorry for her but damn, you align yourself with nut jobs and think you are going to change the world? how dissalusional do you have to be? maybe her grief pushed her over the edge. well it could have been much worse, she could have been jane fonda.

Quote:
She wrote that she is disillusioned by the failure of Democratic politicians to bring the unpopular war to an end and tired of a peace movement she said "often puts personal egos above peace and human life."
Coming from her, I find this hilarious.
[/quote]

to some extent but i guess she was REALLY that naive and just didnt know. i do feel sorry for her in the way that she really was upset and grief stricken and when she wanted to say something about it she was corraled by the wrong crowd. but having said that, being naive only gets you so far. she soon realized what was going on and now must live with her choice for the rest of her life. what happened to her son was not easy for her, what she did to his memory she must now live with and that will not be easy for her as well. she will pay that price until she dies.


What's typical?

the typical bull****, politics are corrupt, im disenchanted, i hate the my country, im going to cave in on myself and live in total apathy for the rest of my ****ing life. i have a aunt who is like this and hates God for not fixing the world according to her own fantasetical vision.

oh also, the american idol thihng is just bull****. saying more americans voted for american idol than politics is absurd. how many kids and teens voted in american idol? right. so you are comparing a percent of the population that is normally unable to vote against legitimate working voters? nah, im not having any of that. hell, if voting was as easy as a single phone call with sweet music being sung in my ears by teenage hearthrobs i garuntee political votes would be much higher. you cant compare the two. even the people involved are largely different.

[SOG]

Defending the country? I didn't know Saddam was attacking the US. Can anyone please explain to me what the war in Iraq has to do with defending freedom.

well since you dont pay attention i guess ill chime in.

iraq is a sponsor of terrorism. manufacturing suicide vests (us soldiers found when we very first invaded if you recall the age old article), giving money to suicide bombers families, wanting to destroy israel, trying to assemble a massive gun to do so, attacking its oil rich partner kuwait, killing, raping etc, kuwait sends alot of its oil to britain (drawing any parralels?) saddam trying to rebuild the ancient city of babylon so he may come back as the prince of ancient assyria or some such **** and push the infidels out of the land, when saddam finally kicks the bucket one of his two insane maniacal sons would take power, oh yeah, that would be fun. destabilizing the region with wars and tit for tat in iran years ago, millions dead, jerked UN inspectors around for ten years on WMD while millions of his people died due to UN sanctions. he purposely withheld UN food for oil support punishing his people showing them that the west was starving them.

but hey, he didnt coddle al queda like we thought he may have and he didnt have wmd as he purposely jerked inspectors around for 10 years so eh, i guess it was totally reprehensible and wrong of us to dispose of him despite the consequences on our part.

also from a future military sense once iraq is settled to a mild roar we will have permanent military bases in iraq to regularly hit just about every ****ing jihadist asshole in that hemisphere with regularity. iran, syria anyone?

oh and jump into the far future and we have garrunteed oil supplies to keep the american economy from grinding into chaos while we slowly change a 300 million person society to better fuel economy, forward military bases right next to who? china. (iraq, japan, australia, india, see the circle of allies gearing up and developing?)

i could go on about the saudis manipulation in the region, working with israel to further **** jihadist in the region, covert work in iran, but i wouldnt want to bore anyone. its funny, the jihadist can see what we are doing as clear as day, as for our population....

[pistol]

oh and jump into the far future and we have garrunteed oil supplies to keep the american economy from grinding into chaos while we slowly change a 300 million person society to better fuel economy, forward military bases right next to who? china. (iraq, japan, australia, india, see the circle of allies gearing up and developing?)


I'm sure the families of the 65-70 thousand civilians who have died since 2003 will feel better knowing that their loss benefited your gas tank. Good work.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

2 Sheds, I was agreeing with you but probably did not state it well enough. I think CJ pretty much summed it up.

Oh yeah, I got that - I was just rambling on as I'm apt to do. I have no idea why CJ is being so nice and all compassionate and everything - he's usually a total bastard when it comes to shutting down such wanton jackassery.


What I would say is that whatever the hell you believe about her, there used to be a concept of being polite. I was always told if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything.

Normally, I would agree with you. And if Sheehan was just a private citizen going about her business, I'd never say a word. If she wanted to be alone with her grief, she had the opportunity, as we all do. But she chose to become a public figure, and take her story (and IMHO hijack her son's story to some extent) - and to use it, to shape public policy. She cannot then be given a free pass simply because of her circumstance. I don't think she should be able to hide behind her grief and use it as a shield to ward off criticism. I've never insulted her loss, only her methods and her verbal diarrhea. I'd be perfectly ok with her leading an anti-war movement, so long as it wasn't based on lies, distortions, fantasy and conspiracy theories. She could have been a true American hero if she'd walked the straight and narrow - but instead she was a kook from the get-go. Yeah, it's pretty sad any way you look at it.

[Hollis]

Oh yeah, I got that - I was just rambling on as I'm apt to do. I have no idea why CJ is being so nice and all compassionate and everything - he's usually a total bastard when it comes to shutting down such wanton jackassery.



Must be something to do with Spring time, Pretty Girls everywhere. That has got to have a positive effect even for crusty old basters.

[California Joe]

Now that you mention it, I do have a newfound swell of confidence...p-)

[name already taken]

Oh yeah, I got that - I was just rambling on as I'm apt to do. I have no idea why CJ is being so nice and all compassionate and everything - he's usually a total bastard when it comes to shutting down such wanton jackassery.



Normally, I would agree with you. And if Sheehan was just a private citizen going about her business, I'd never say a word. If she wanted to be alone with her grief, she had the opportunity, as we all do. 1: But she chose to become a public figure, and take her story (and IMHO hijack her son's story to some extent) - and to use it, to shape public policy. She cannot then be given a free pass simply because of her circumstance. 2: I don't think she should be able to hide behind her grief and use it as a shield to ward off criticism. I've never insulted her loss, only her methods and her verbal diarrhea. I'd be perfectly ok with her 3: leading an anti-war movement, so long as it wasn't based on lies, distortions, fantasy and conspiracy theories. She could have been a true American hero if she'd walked the straight and narrow - but instead she was a kook from the get-go. Yeah, it's pretty sad any way you look at it.
1: As far as for shaping public policy, everybody, in your political system, is supposed to be doing that. It's called participative democracy.

2: How can you place yourself inside the bond between a mother and a son ? Even if some media whores did so, it's a real shame that you try spinning about her personal relation with her son. Did you ever hear about the story about how ferocious is the mother bear defending her kids ?

3: You don't have anything against her leading a peace movement, except they're all based on lies, distorsions, fantasy and conspiracy theories. Of course, you and your friends hold the Holy Thruth !

Everybody agrees with you, except maybe a majority of Americans. But who cares.

[pistol]

I'd be perfectly ok with her leading an anti-war movement, so long as it wasn't based on lies, distortions, fantasy and conspiracy theories.

Just out of curiosity, do you have an example of an anti-war leader with whom you are "perfectly ok"? I would think they would by definition all be kooks, liars, and conspiracy theorists right? I mean, what reasonable person wouldn't want to invade Iraq?

[Red]

well since you dont pay attention i guess ill chime in.

iraq is a sponsor of terrorism. manufacturing suicide vests (us soldiers found when we very first invaded if you recall the age old article), giving money to suicide bombers families, wanting to destroy israel, trying to assemble a massive gun to do so, attacking its oil rich partner kuwait, killing, raping etc, kuwait sends alot of its oil to britain (drawing any parralels?) saddam trying to rebuild the ancient city of babylon so he may come back as the prince of ancient assyria or some such **** and push the infidels out of the land, when saddam finally kicks the bucket one of his two insane maniacal sons would take power, oh yeah, that would be fun. destabilizing the region with wars and tit for tat in iran years ago, millions dead, jerked UN inspectors around for ten years on WMD while millions of his people died due to UN sanctions. he purposely withheld UN food for oil support punishing his people showing them that the west was starving them.

but hey, he didnt coddle al queda like we thought he may have and he didnt have wmd as he purposely jerked inspectors around for 10 years so eh, i guess it was totally reprehensible and wrong of us to dispose of him despite the consequences on our part.

also from a future military sense once iraq is settled to a mild roar we will have permanent military bases in iraq to regularly hit just about every ****ing jihadist asshole in that hemisphere with regularity. iran, syria anyone?

oh and jump into the far future and we have garrunteed oil supplies to keep the american economy from grinding into chaos while we slowly change a 300 million person society to better fuel economy, forward military bases right next to who? china. (iraq, japan, australia, india, see the circle of allies gearing up and developing?)

i could go on about the saudis manipulation in the region, working with israel to further **** jihadist in the region, covert work in iran, but i wouldnt want to bore anyone. its funny, the jihadist can see what we are doing as clear as day, as for our population....

There was no part of the utter garbage you just posted that answered my question. Try again

[SOG]

I'm sure the families of the 65-70 thousand civilians who have died since 2003 will feel better knowing that their loss benefited your gas tank. Good work.

just like the families being staved by saddam refusing to distribute the food, medicine and other supplies thus suffocating his own people in a slow genocide for ten years while anyone who spoke out mysteriously dissapeared?

whats that? we ended saddams reign as president of 24 years of iraq and who is directly responsible for having millions killed and you are bitching about the transition from such a regime? holy ****ing hell!

would you like to hear the benefits to iraq in the future as well? i mean they are painfully obvious but if you cant think of any guess i could continue to bore you. then again i responded to why we are there, not what will become of iraq if we win this war.

good work for selectively picking one note and bitching about it as a typical forum flamer while ignoring mounds of other reasons.

**** off.

[name already taken]

I'm sure the families of the 65-70 thousand civilians who have died since 2003 will feel better knowing that their loss benefited your gas tank. Good work.
650 thousand would be a better guess.

[SOG]

There was no part of the utter garbage you just posted that answered my question. Try again

wow its all utter garbage? i would love to hear why it is all garbage. but i bet you cant tell me why either. go figure.


Defending the country? I didn't know Saddam was attacking the US. Can anyone please explain to me what the war in Iraq has to do with defending freedom.

direct reply? depends on your definition of freedom. by your simple reasoning you may think US freedoms only extend to our borders. however you could say we are free because of the actions we commit beyond our borders. is saddam a threat to our economy with the oil he controls? simple yes or no.

would for instance venezula and iraq cutting off oil supplies to the US be a threat to our freedoms we enjoy locally? simple yes or no.

would saddam destabilizing the region in a future war with iran or israel be a threat to american freedoms? like for instance the freedoms to travel abroad, enjoy driving around day to day, foreign economic business which secures jobs and economy here in the US. i mean that has nothing to do with freedoms right? life, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness? ever heard of that?

if you dont have stability in society then arent freedoms surpressed? as cities grow larger and larger due to chaos on many many levels (drugs, crime, politicians, poor, rich, traffic, health, race etc) arent freedoms surpressed to keep us in check? so wouldnt it be easy to surmize even more chaos for instance if a war in the middle east broke out or not having enough gas back at home, would that not further impair our freedoms? do you remember the worry during the 70's when we had a major gas shortage? no?

how about our freedom to help others? are you talking about all freedoms, an individuals freedoms, the nations collective freedom to help others or are you just coal lumping to make attacks?

[SOG]

650 thousand would be a better guess.

based on what?

even the anti-war folks HIGHLY disagree.

Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq
Min Max
64632 70783
View Database...

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

i mean unless you have other sources id be willing to look but the anti war folks are all over the stats like stink on ****. im not saying you full of it or anything im just wondering what your sources etc are.

[schwarz]

"Casey died for a country which cares more about who will be the next American Idol than how many people will be killed in the next few months while Democrats and Republicans play politics with human lives."


You know sad thing is that quote is true, maybe no as much from the Rep but its still coming from both sides of the isle.



And may her son RIP he did not die for nothing.

[Bia]

Lets not forget the great thing about all this was the sentiment from GWs mouth, he said.... "I understand her feelings and support her right to view things in her way, that's the great thing about this nation"

The sad thing.... Fallen soldiers

The proud thing.... My cousin Ron that I posted about deploying almost 2 yrs ago.... he volunteered for another deployment and leaves in July.

Love ya Ron.... stay safe!

[Hollis]

Lets not forget the great thing about all this was the sentiment from GWs mouth, he said.... "I understand her feelings and support her right to view things in her way, that's the great thing about this nation"

The sad thing.... Fallen soldiers

The proud thing.... My cousin Ron that I posted about deploying almost 2 yrs ago.... he volunteered for another deployment and leaves in July.

Love ya Ron.... stay safe!

I have brothers who are currently serving, I will not speak for them, their actions speak louder than anything I can say.

For your Cousin, Semper Fi......

Hollis.

[name already taken]

based on what?

even the anti-war folks HIGHLY disagree.

Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq
Min Max
64632 70783
View Database...

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

(*) i mean unless you have other sources id be willing to look but the anti war folks are all over the stats like stink on ****. im not saying you full of it or anything im just wondering what your sources etc are.

The Lancet (http://www.thelancet.com/): http://www.thelancet.com/webfiles/images/journals/lancet/s0140673606694919.pdf


. Estimate of Iraqi civilian deaths is based on this study (http://www.thelancet.com/webfiles/images/journals/lancet/s0140673606694919.pdf) [pdf], published in Britain's most respected medical journal The Lancet in October 2006. The study concluded that 654,965 (at least 392,979 and as many as 942,636) Iraqi civilians had been killed in the occupation, in addition to deaths expected from Iraq's normal death rate.

(*): You may have noted this on http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/):


“We don’t do body counts”
General Tommy Franks, US Central Command



That's why the anti-war folks are all over the stats, and it's a political choice meant to poison the well.


The Lancet is a very respected medical journal and their figures are usually more reliable than the usual political reporting.

[pistol]

just like the families being staved by saddam refusing to distribute the food, medicine and other supplies thus suffocating his own people in a slow genocide for ten years while anyone who spoke out mysteriously dissapeared?

whats that? we ended saddams reign as president of 24 years of iraq and who is directly responsible for having millions killed and you are bitching about the transition from such a regime? holy ****ing hell!

would you like to hear the benefits to iraq in the future as well? i mean they are painfully obvious but if you cant think of any guess i could continue to bore you. then again i responded to why we are there, not what will become of iraq if we win this war.

good work for selectively picking one note and bitching about it as a typical forum flamer while ignoring mounds of other reasons.

**** off.

Goodness. I'm not going to get into the usual "omg u luv saddam!" thing with you. Sometimes you have to pick between the greater of two evils. Was removing him at the expense of many many thousands of lives, billions and billions of dollars, and turning Iraq into a giant mess of instability, sectarian violence, and terrorism while Osama runs around Pakistan stiking his tongue out at us and using Iraq as a rallying cry worth it? Sorry, I'm going to go with no on this one. Hah, now you can get back to calling me a Saddam lover...

[SBL]

“We don’t do body counts”
General Tommy Franks, US Central Command


No context. Nice.

[Mastermind]

My Grandson just called, he will be finishing his advanced training in a few months USMC...of course, he is a total volunteer to defend his nation....and he will eventually deploy to Iraq or A-stan. I'm the porudest Grandpa...and the most worried Grandpa...but what ever happens, no matter what...I'll forever be proud of him.

[California Joe]

I wish him the best.

[Hollis]

Mastermind, I think the hardest part is not being in the fight, it is waiting at home. Wish your son the best.


Semper Fi

Hollis.

[Mastermind]

Thanks...appreciated...O' course, we all wish all of 'em well....they have a really tough job ahead of 'em.MM

[Kant]

they are simply rebuking her choice in the matter based on evidence written by her son himself. correcting a nut job who goes around spouting absolute **** is hardly political.


They are not just doing that. They are saying that Casey felt the same way as they do, because they know due to either:
a) a meeting with Crossing overs John Edwards or
b) because of a letter they have read, which I can't find.
I have found 2 letters from Casey Sheehan, you can find them here http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/03/20/INGIGBNC46129.DTL

To somehow imply because of this, that a dead soldier was rolling over in his grave with disgust because of his mothers anti-war activities is saying that Casey Sheehan somehow died for a cause which his mother didn't believe in. That is wrong. I can not claim to know how Casey Sheehan felt about the war or his purpose and eventual death in it, but I do know that a Son would not roll over in his grave because of the actions of his grief stricken mother, and her attempts to find a cause with which to justify the reason for which her son died. By reading a letter and saying you know what a dead soldier felt in his mind at any other time besides the period in which he was writing this letter is absurd and betrays a naivety and arrogance in their own sense of deductive powers. They are doing this to politicise his death. Saying that he died for a cause in which he believed in, in support of his countries political decision to go to war, and his disgust at his mothers dissagreeance with this his wishes is politicising his death.

[Sabre]

The Lancet is a very respected medical journal and their figures are usually more reliable than the usual political reporting.


Just because an article is in a medical journal doesn't make it true. You heard of the MMR vaccine 'link with autism' that happened here in the UK? The paper was published and caused a stir, despite the fact that what was in it turned out to be complete bollocks. I have to read medical journals as part of my job and I know that some are less that great. I personally doubt the accuracy of these estimates. I could believe it if the 'excess' deaths occurred due to reduced access to health care, and that the majority of the 'excess' deaths were the elderly, but the article claims the majority to be caused by violence and the most of that by gunfire. Even if you take the number to be 600,000 deaths estimated between 2003 and 2006 and say that's 1,000 days, then that equates to 600 deaths per day, every day. That just isn't feasible. It is reported when any major attack occurs, from around 10 or more people killed, that would have to happen 60 times every day for this figure to be correct, I just don't believe it. Also bear in mind that this data was collected from particular sites and through interviewing families. What is to stop them from 'exaggerating' a little?

I just don't buy those figures. We killed around 500,000 German civilians through five years of intensive, large scale bombing of cities, specifically targeting population centres, with a combined airforce that makes the current force levels look tiny, combined with 'total war' scale ground combat throughout the country with an army much, much bigger than that in Iraq today. Supposedly then, 'we' have killed more civilians than in WW2?

Bollocks.

[name already taken]

Just because an article is in a medical journal doesn't make it true. You heard of the MMR vaccine 'link with autism' that happened here in the UK? The paper was published and caused a stir, despite the fact that what was in it turned out to be complete bollocks. I have to read medical journals as part of my job and I know that some are less that great. I personally doubt the accuracy of these estimates. I could believe it if the 'excess' deaths occurred due to reduced access to health care, and that the majority of the 'excess' deaths were the elderly, but the article claims the majority to be caused by violence and the most of that by gunfire. Even if you take the number to be 600,000 deaths estimated between 2003 and 2006 and say that's 1,000 days, then that equates to 600 deaths per day, every day. That just isn't feasible. It is reported when any major attack occurs, from around 10 or more people killed, that would have to happen 60 times every day for this figure to be correct, I just don't believe it. Also bear in mind that this data was collected from particular sites and through interviewing families. What is to stop them from 'exaggerating' a little?

I just don't buy those figures. We killed around 500,000 German civilians through five years of intensive, large scale bombing of cities, specifically targeting population centres, with a combined airforce that makes the current force levels look tiny, combined with 'total war' scale ground combat throughout the country with an army much, much bigger than that in Iraq today. Supposedly then, 'we' have killed more civilians than in WW2?

Bollocks.
Even more bollocks:


“We don’t do body counts”
General Tommy Franks, US Central Command



So that all this can turn into a brand new Area 51 issue.

Same thing for the returning bodies of the dead soldiers which cannot be filmed,

same for the President never attending any soldier's funerals not to be caught on camera.

Connect the dots and tell me I am bogus.

[Red]

wow its all utter garbage? i would love to hear why it is all garbage. but i bet you cant tell me why either. go figure.



direct reply? depends on your definition of freedom. by your simple reasoning you may think US freedoms only extend to our borders. however you could say we are free because of the actions we commit beyond our borders. is saddam a threat to our economy with the oil he controls? simple yes or no.

would for instance venezula and iraq cutting off oil supplies to the US be a threat to our freedoms we enjoy locally? simple yes or no.

would saddam destabilizing the region in a future war with iran or israel be a threat to american freedoms? like for instance the freedoms to travel abroad, enjoy driving around day to day, foreign economic business which secures jobs and economy here in the US. i mean that has nothing to do with freedoms right? life, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness? ever heard of that?

if you dont have stability in society then arent freedoms surpressed? as cities grow larger and larger due to chaos on many many levels (drugs, crime, politicians, poor, rich, traffic, health, race etc) arent freedoms surpressed to keep us in check? so wouldnt it be easy to surmize even more chaos for instance if a war in the middle east broke out or not having enough gas back at home, would that not further impair our freedoms? do you remember the worry during the 70's when we had a major gas shortage? no?

how about our freedom to help others? are you talking about all freedoms, an individuals freedoms, the nations collective freedom to help others or are you just coal lumping to make attacks?

Ergo Iraqi freedom also extends to the borders of the US as well. He controlled oil that was deposited IN HIS COUNTRY not yours. So i guess Iran can argue that they are fighting for their freedom and survival by the actions they are taking in Iraq and elsewhere. (remeber the words of GWB "fighting them over there so we won't fight them over here") Iran seem to have taken his words to heart.

So you now believe that the US has exclusive rights to the natural resources of other countries based on your concept of "freedom"? All these freedoms you have described are American in nature and good ones at that. But I think you feel that the non US population was put on earth to do your bidding to allow you to enjoy your "freedom". Freedom to travel abroad? That is a privilege, no country is bound by your "freedom" to let you in. Driving is a privilege and has nothing to do with Iraq. "Foreign economic business" is not a freedom but depends on if the foreign finds the economic relationship viable. If not they have the option to decline. The US has done more to destabilize thay region with this war than Saddam ever did. life, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness are applicable only within your borders. Typical arrogant septic.

I could go on and on but it's pointless and my question still remains unanswered.

[Sabre]

Even more bollocks:


“We don’t do body counts”
General Tommy Franks, US Central Command



So that all this can turn into a brand new Area 51 issue.

Same thing for the returning bodies of the dead soldiers which cannot be filmed,

same for the President never attending any soldier's funerals not to be caught on camera.

Connect the dots and tell me I am bogus.

You are bogus. The article you cited is an estimate of dead. Even the authors admit that they can't account for each death so they estimated. I'm sure that informed people in the US DoD could estimate a death toll too, but to what end? For every 20 deaths you get a free photo shoot with a government official watching a coffin? What do you want?

You're talking about a serious conflict and yet you mention Area 51?

I CALL: CONSPIRACY WALT!!!

[Bia]

My Grandson just called, he will be finishing his advanced training in a few months USMC...of course, he is a total volunteer to defend his nation....and he will eventually deploy to Iraq or A-stan. I'm the porudest Grandpa...and the most worried Grandpa...but what ever happens, no matter what...I'll forever be proud of him.

Outstanding...!

Nice post... made me smile.

Just so you know many others are proud of him too.

Semper Fi!!!!!

[WhiskeyTango]

1234567890

[budgie]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/28/sheehan/index.html



i'm sorry for the loss of her son, but i'm glad she's done.

Have to agree with that. If nothing else her incessant baiting consisitently raised Right Wing heckles. If it shuts the Rednecks up I'm happy.

[pistol]

Ergo Iraqi freedom also extends to the borders of the US as well. He controlled oil that was deposited IN HIS COUNTRY not yours. So i guess Iran can argue that they are fighting for their freedom and survival by the actions they are taking in Iraq and elsewhere. (remeber the words of GWB "fighting them over there so we won't fight them over here") Iran seem to have taken his words to heart.

So you now believe that the US has exclusive rights to the natural resources of other countries based on your concept of "freedom"? All these freedoms you have described are American in nature and good ones at that. But I think you feel that the non US population was put on earth to do your bidding to allow you to enjoy your "freedom". Freedom to travel abroad? That is a privilege, no country is bound by your "freedom" to let you in. Driving is a privilege and has nothing to do with Iraq. "Foreign economic business" is not a freedom but depends on if the foreign finds the economic relationship viable. If not they have the option to decline. The US has done more to destabilize thay region with this war than Saddam ever did. life, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness are applicable only within your borders. Typical arrogant septic.

I could go on and on but it's pointless and my question still remains unanswered.

Hold on, I'll respond for SOG. Let me get in neo-con character...

The real unanswered question is why do you love saddam so much and why do you want him back in power after he attacked us on 9/11!?!!?

[11 Bravo]

Have to agree with that. If nothing else her incessant baiting consisitently raised Right Wing heckles. If it shuts the Rednecks up I'm happy.

So anyone not towing the sheehan line is a rednack or a raight something - booger on you birdman.
Far removed from redneckism I won't soon shut my yap about that deceitful backstabbing mother.

[name already taken]

You are bogus. The article you cited is an estimate of dead. Even the authors admit that they can't account for each death so they estimated. I'm sure that informed people in the US DoD could estimate a death toll too, but to what end? For every 20 deaths you get a free photo shoot with a government official watching a coffin? What do you want?

You're talking about a serious conflict and yet you mention Area 51?

I CALL: CONSPIRACY WALT!!!
What you don't know is the American administration is running an information war on its population. And not counting civilian casualties is really hiding some realities of this war in the hope the population's support for it will last as long as the administration manages this support well.

While running a war for 4 years without a clear and valid casus belli.

Of course The Lancet's article is an estimate. But it's no less a good estimate than any other since there's no independent figures to rely on. Information war priorities come first...

[Hunterhr]

What you don't know is the American administration is running an information war on its population. And not counting civilian casualties is really hiding some realities of this war in the hope the population's support for it will last as long as the administration manages this support well.


In a hilarious bit of irony, you're countering this by using bunk figures and taking quotes out of context.

[Hollis]

Have to agree with that. If nothing else her incessant baiting consisitently raised Right Wing heckles. If it shuts the Rednecks up I'm happy.


That is a very derogatory comment, Red necks received the name from working in the fields, Hard work. Maybe you consider hard work for the ?????? I'll let you fill in the blank. Right Wing and Rednecks is not necessary the same. I can not envision Rush L. as a redneck.

Maybe read the book, "The Grapes of Wraft".

[name already taken]

In a hilarious bit of irony, you're countering this by using bunk figures and taking quotes out of context.
Let's say that you don't have reliable figures and I don't have reliable figures.

My point is, that it's impossible to have any reliable figures because it's designed to be so, to go along the wishes of a small groupuscule of extremist war mongers called the Neocon.

Things would get so much simpler if people decided to fight them back.

[SOG]

The Lancet (http://www.thelancet.com/): http://www.thelancet.com/webfiles/images/journals/lancet/s0140673606694919.pdf



(*): You may have noted this on http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/):


“We don’t do body counts”
General Tommy Franks, US Central Command



That's why the anti-war folks are all over the stats, and it's a political choice meant to poison the well.


The Lancet is a very respected medical journal and their figures are usually more reliable than the usual political reporting.


cool man, i appreciate the links and will check them out.

the quote by franks simply means we will not be undetered in our mission. you dont sit around and count kills and jump around like a monkey waving statistics in peoples faces. to that site it probably means we will kill everyone whos innocent then have a picnic when we are done. to each his own.

[SOG]

Goodness. I'm not going to get into the usual "omg u luv saddam!" thing with you. Sometimes you have to pick between the greater of two evils. Was removing him at the expense of many many thousands of lives, billions and billions of dollars, and turning Iraq into a giant mess of instability, sectarian violence, and terrorism while Osama runs around Pakistan stiking his tongue out at us and using Iraq as a rallying cry worth it? Sorry, I'm going to go with no on this one. Hah, now you can get back to calling me a Saddam lover...

nah i wouldnt call you a saddam lover, i totally understand your position and have good friends who feel the exact same way. no biggie.

some of the things you mentioned while true (billions/mess/osama), but what if it works out in the end. then was it worth it? would it change your opnion in the end if things wrapped up, cooled off and ended up decently good?

again i understand if you say no, its really just the type of individual we each are.