Russia launched WWII?

[Digimon]

According to the Annual Review of the Security Police of the Republic of Estonia (published May 31), Russia is responsible for launching the WWII.


On November 15, 2006, the Russian Duma adopted a statement in which several international organisations were asked to give “explicit and principal assessment to conniving of Fascism-heroizing in Estonia.” These are typical examples of a prolonged information war of an empire, a launcher and a victor of the WW II, against a small victim-country that suffered and carried great losses due to occupation by both fighting parties.
The quote is from the last paragraph of the English version of the Annual Review.
Annual Review: http://common.regnum.ru/documents/kapo2006eng.pdf (http://common.regnum.ru/documents/kapo2006eng.pdf)

[Snoshi]

wtf.. This cant be true..

[Kippari]

They possibly mean that it was SU who brought the WW2 to Estonia.

[Rictor]

There were many conflicts that took place immediately before WW2 but which, for whatever reason, are not usually counted as part of the war proper. So I guess "Who started it" depends on which date you choose to count from.

Japan invaded China, the Soviet Union invaded Finland, Germany invaded Czechoslovakia and Austria, Italy invaded Ethiopia, the Spanish Civil War was a proxy war between the USSR and Germany etc etc.

One could also make the arguement, although it's not something I would necessarily agree with, that by signing the non-aggression pact with Germany the USSR allowed Germany the breathing room it needed to launch its war in Europe.

[mas-36]

One could also make the arguement, although it's not something I would necessarily agree with, that by signing the non-aggression pact with Germany the USSR allowed Germany the breathing room it needed to launch its war in Europe.

The non-aggression pact between Germany and the Soviet Union was definately one of the things, out of many, which led up to WW 2. It certainly sealed the fate of Poland.

[Digimon]

The non-aggression pact between Germany and the Soviet Union was definately one of the things, out of many, which led up to WW 2. It certainly sealed the fate of Poland.

Perhaps Britain launched the war in Munich in 1938?

[Serjey]

Cant read this BS, WW2 started Germany. Even that non agression act (that lasted only for about a year) was broken when germany invaded USSR. And USSR was the ONLY country that stood against Germany or didnt fall on knees before Germany in Europe after mass invasion. Then yes USSR began to "rescue" captured countries(like Estonia) and we came to Berlin. Ofcourse other "allies" began to rescue too. But if USSR fell against Germany, no other country in the world would stop Germany.

Its SHAME for the rest of the world to loose such facts. Watch documentary independent USA movie "Unknown War" about WW2. My grandfather died in this war against Germany and now i see that nobody wants to remember what for this war was and what price the world payed just to stop nazy Germany. And now we can live free only thanks to nazy loose. Nazy germany wanted to eliminate all slavanian and jew ethnic population. This no one should forget!!!

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Thats a bunch of hogwash. WW2 started because of the conditions imposed on Germany after WW1. England and France have just as much blame with ww2 as Germany. As does England, dutch, and the US for the Pacific.

Both Japan and Germany were forced to start war by the direct policies of the Allies.

As for the USSR winning the war. That is true. But England and the US would still have prevailed eventually. England still ruled the waves and the shear amount of air power they could build up was frightening.

[Adax]

Cant read this BS, WW2 started Germany. Even that non agression act (that lasted only for about a year) was broken when germany invaded USSR. And USSR was the ONLY country that stood against Germany or didnt fall on knees before Germany in Europe after mass invasion. Then yes USSR began to "rescue" captured countries(like Estonia) and we came to Berlin. Ofcourse other "allies" began to rescue too. But if USSR fell against Germany, no other country in the world would stop Germany.

Its SHAME for the rest of the world to loose such facts. Watch documentary independent USA movie "Unknown War" about WW2. My grandfather died in this war against Germany and now i see that nobody wants to remember what for this war was and what price the world payed just to stop nazy Germany. And now we can live free only thanks to nazy loose. Nazy germany wanted to eliminate all slavanian and jew ethnic population. This no one should forget!!!
Did you "rescue" Poland on 17.09.1939 ? And why did you "rescue" those county's for next 50 years? And stop writing this BS that only USSR didn't fall on knees before Gemrany.

[TheHatta]

my bad i thought it said ww1

[THE.WHITE.RIDER]

The non-aggression pact between Germany and the Soviet Union was definately one of the things, out of many, which led up to WW 2. It certainly sealed the fate of Poland.

Some argue that this was a pact that was planned by the Soviets to buy time for their own attack, because they had plans to strike Germany within a short time.

[Windsurfer]

[quote=Digimon;2538977]According to the Annual Review of the Security Police of the Republic of Estonia (published May 31), Russia is responsible for launching the WWII.


Just shows how insular my thinking is. I thought the reason(s) for WW2 came from a culmination of global geopolitical events. Time to throw out the history books.

[Konrad84]

Serjey
with all due respect, such a crap you're writing. First of all, you should be thankfull to weather conditions since if it hadn't been for it, your beloved, schizofremic granddad Stalin would have escaped with all his comerades. Thanks to winter you didn't fall on your knees and not beacuse your strength, in fact you were escpaing like foxes from haunting dogs! By the way winter saved your asses twice! Hitler was lucky that he invaded USSR since he started loosing the war. If he hadn't Germany sooner or later would have been bombared with atomic bombs. What's more, it's not about saving countries like Estonia or Poland. It's about what your gradfathers did after saving. About communist reign you established after the may 1945. And still you call yourself rescures? My gradfahther was a guerilla fighter during the WW2. And guess what your Stalin did to him. He was sent to Syberia, because he was fighting for free Poland. For them he was an enamy of the state, ideological one. Russia still sufers from being underdeveloped, a looser of the cold war. And now Putin tries to recreate the Russian imperium. With his policies I'm sure he will fail. And I strongly recommend you Serjey to read some good historic books but not these written by Russians, try these Western ones.

[Smok]

Then yes USSR began to "rescue" captured countries(like Estonia) and we came to Berlin.

First. In 1940 Estonia wasn't occupied by Germans so there was no need to rescue that country.
Second. Did you ever ask if these countries wanted to be rescued by USSR?

[Konrad84]

Good point Smok! These countries never wanted to be rescued by USSR?

[Snoshi]

Here we go again!

[Rictor]

Cant read this BS, WW2 started Germany. Even that non agression act (that lasted only for about a year) was broken when germany invaded USSR. And USSR was the ONLY country that stood against Germany or didnt fall on knees before Germany in Europe after mass invasion. Then yes USSR began to "rescue" captured countries(like Estonia) and we came to Berlin. Ofcourse other "allies" began to rescue too. But if USSR fell against Germany, no other country in the world would stop Germany.

Its SHAME for the rest of the world to loose such facts. Watch documentary independent USA movie "Unknown War" about WW2. My grandfather died in this war against Germany and now i see that nobody wants to remember what for this war was and what price the world payed just to stop nazy Germany. And now we can live free only thanks to nazy loose. Nazy germany wanted to eliminate all slavanian and jew ethnic population. This no one should forget!!!

No one is saying that the USSR didn't play an absolutely crucial role in winning WW2 - in fact, their contribution was the largest among the Allied countries. I for one think that people often forget the USSR's sacrifice in defeating the Nazis, which is a shame.

But the fact remains that Stalin was hardly an angel, and had his eye on Poland and the Baltics even before the war broke out. If Germany hadn't started the war, how long would it be before Stalin decided to snatch those territories anyway?

Again, who started the war depends on how far back you look. You can start from the German invasion of Poland, or the conflicts in the 30s, or in the atermath of WW1 or even further.

[k98_man]

Well Russia did start the war against Finland and Chinese started expansion.

And the baltics wanted nothing to do with the SU. Why do you think there were so many volunteers to fight for the Germans?

[lightfire]

pointless disscusion leading nowhere, because of the pointless first statement.
It would be more interesting to discus points, did USSR wanted to strike first, at least concerning nazi Germany in early summer 1941. That would make more points for discussion (though Lokos would come, bombard and end it anyway.)

[Serjey]

Well i have never thought that Stalin was an angel.
Stalin and Hitler BOTH were rather cruel agressive leaders.

Stalin:
Alot of even soviet people suffered from Stalin policy even INSIDE USSR. Stalin killed alot of russians that stayed at occupied territory for example, they had no choice but Stalin`s idea was "better die then surrender". After defending USSR in 9th may 1945 Stalin didnt stop and went to Europe and i think made alot of crimes and cruels there, yes its true and it would be stupid to refuse this.

Hitler:
Hitler was leader not of even country i think he was leader of edia. His idea was simple "We are the GOD nation of the world and we should eliminate other nations like slavanians and jews and ect." I HOPE everyone still remember his cruels like mass killing of non-military people, for example in Ukraine and Belarus nazy solgers burned alot of towns with all porulation, whole town`s population gathered in one building and then was burned alive.

These are 2 powerfull figures of last century, very cruel and agressive. And if i had choice between them i whould chose Stalin as less evil for the world.

[lightfire]

These are 2 powerfull figures of last century, very cruel and agressive. And if i had choice between them i whould chose Stalin as less evil for the world.

and everyone has the right to choose smth better, than those two, to fight for the right of their choise.

[Serjey]

and everyone has the right to choose smth better, than those two, to fight for the right of their choise.

I was talking about WW2. And about idea that Russia lanched WW2(thats BS)
Well in fact Russia(Russian Federation) exists since 1991, before that was USSR, and whatever u think and whatever was, whatever history books are written, blame Russia in USSR falts is stupid cuz Russia and USSR have never existed at same time and Russia has no response of USSR actions, so Topic is BS and how it is written is BS.
And stop blaming Russia in USSR actions whatever they where, this is all senceless. Its a pity that "western democratic" is so widely sold and countries are eager to loose their indeendence, history and self-respect just to gain political and economic support.

[k98_man]

I was talking about WW2. And about idea that Russia lanched WW2(thats BS)
Well in fact Russia(Russian Federation) exists since 1991, before that was USSR, and whatever u think and whatever was, whatever history books are written, blame Russia in USSR falts is stupid cuz Russia and USSR have never existed at same time and Russia has no response of USSR actions, so Topic is BS and how it is written is BS.
And stop blaming Russia in USSR actions whatever they where, this is all senceless. Its a pity that "western democratic" is so widely sold and countries are eager to loose their indeendence, history and self-respect just to gain political and economic support.

With that I agree. It's a shame we feel it our duty to meddle in everyone's affairs. USSR had that same problem.

[Basillicus]

That quote gives the impression that USSR was THE launcher of WW2 and that ofcourse is BS. It was Germany that led Europe to the point where WW2 could start. However, I'd say USSR counts as one of the launchers of WW2 in Europe and there's hardly any guestion about it. USSR was aggressor in certain areas of Europe where the Germans had no interest. Stalin just took the advantage of the situation where western countries were tied up with the Germany. Finland and Baltic countries would have stayed out of the war if USSR hadn't attacked them.

[Digimon]

Here is a good western source: Memoirs of the Second World War by Winston S. Churchill...

Quotes from book one Millstones to Disaster:



At the Assembly of Nations on September 21 (1938) an official warning was given by Litvinov:


... At the present time Czechoslovakia is suffering interference in its internal affairs at the hands of neighboring state, and is publicly and loudly menaced with attack... In the event of an attack on Czechoslovakia, I gave in the name of my government the following perfectly clear and unambiguous reply: “We intend to fulfill our obligations under the Pact, and together with France to afford assistance to Czechoslovakia by the ways open to us...” The Soviet offer was in fact ignored. They were not brought into the scale against Hitler, and were treated with an indifference – not to say disdain – which left a mark in Stalin’s mind. Events took their course as if Soviet Russia did not exist. For this we afterwards paid dearly.

The dismemberment of Czechoslovakia proceeded. The Germans were not the only vultures upon the carcass. The Polish government send a twenty-four hour ultimatum to the Czechs demanding the immediate handing over of the frontier district of Teschen. There was no means of resisting this harsh demands.... The Poles had gained Teschen by their shameful attitude towards liquidation of the Czechoslovak State. They were soon to pay their own forteits. ...

The Soviet government was convinced by Munich and much else that neither Britain nor France would fight till they were attacked, and would not be much good then. The gathering storm was about to break. Russia must look after herself. ...

The Soviet Government made it clear that they would only adhere to a pact of mutual assistance if Finland and the Baltic states were included in a general guarantee. All four countries now refused... Finland and Estonia even asserted that they would consider a guarantee extended to them without their assent as an act of aggression. On June 7 Estonia and Latvia signed non-aggression pacts with Germany.

On the Soviet side it must be said that their vital need was to hold the deployment positions of the German armies as far to the west as possible, so as to give the Russians more time for assembling of their forces from all parts of their immense empire. They had burnt in their minds the disaster which had come upon their armies in 1914, when they had hurled themselves towards Germans while still themselves only partly mobilized... They must be in occupation of the Baltic states and large part of Poland by force or fraud before they were attacked. If their policy was cold-blooded, it was also realistic in high degree.

Perhaps then it was the Poland and Germany that started the war in Munich?

[Switek]

This whole thread is about Viktor Suvorov's point of view contained in two books: "Icebreaker" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icebreaker_(Suvorov)) and "M-Day" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_%22M%22_(Suvorov)). Anyway his interpretation of the history seems interesting and worth knowing. Is he right? I don't know...

[Thor]

Silly thread, everyone knows Russia isn't aggressive towards her neighbours.


On a more serious note. Stalin and Hitler, two dictators, both long gone. The russians rooted for the one who spoke russian and the germans backed the one who spoke german. No surprise there, but let's learn from history and leave this be.

[jmatucd]

read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact

"However, there was also a secret protocol to the pact, revealed only on Germany's defeat in 1945, according to which the states of Northern and Eastern Europe were divided into German and Soviet spheres of influence. In the North, Finland, Estonia and Latvia were apportioned to the Soviet sphere. Poland was to be partitioned in the event of its "political rearrangement"—the areas east of the rivers Narev, Vistula and San going to the Soviet Union while the Germans would occupy the west. Lithuania, adjacent to East-Prussia, would be in the German sphere of influence. In the South, the Soviet Union's interest and German lack of interest in Bessarabia, a part of Romania, were acknowledged. The German diplomat Hans von Herwarth informed his U.S. colleague Charles Bohlen on the secret protocol on August 24, but the information stopped at the desk of President Franklin Roosevelt."

They effectively decided to split parts of europe together...

[Kilgor]

The pact was signed, a week later war started in europe. Enough said.

[Digimon]

This whole thread is about Viktor Suvorov's point of view contained in two books: "Icebreaker" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icebreaker_(Suvorov)) and "M-Day" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_%22M%22_(Suvorov)). Anyway his interpretation of the history seems interesting and worth knowing. Is he right? I don't know...

Suvorov’s point is that Soviet Union was planning to launch the war, this thread is about the claim that it actually did.

As far as Suvorov’s thesis is concerned, I think the objections listed in the wiki entry on this matter are sufficient to reduce this account to the status of a merely entertaining read. What interests me is whether - given the situation - a responsible leader could have acted otherwise than Stalin did at the time.

[Switek]

Suvorov’s point is that Soviet Union was planning to launch the war, this thread is about the claim that it actually did.

As far as Suvorov’s thesis is concerned, I think the objections listed in the wiki entry on this matter are sufficient to reduce this account to the status of a merely entertaining read. What interests me is whether - given the situation - a responsible leader could have acted otherwise than Stalin did at the time.


Going into way "what if..." is a pure speculation, I guess.

[Mr.K]

What a joke this thread is.

[Hukatus]

In Estonian language version of this book there isn't any word about "launching".
guess it was translators vision to use this word in some meaning.

[Basillicus]

What interests me is whether - given the situation - a responsible leader could have acted otherwise than Stalin did at the time.

Hmm, like ... not invading his little neighbours? Doesn't sound like something that would have been too difficult to avoid.

[MZKT]

Suvorov already delivered a book called "I take my words back" where he admits to have twisted facts and statistics in this previous books.



Hmm, like ... not invading his little neighbours? Doesn't sound like something that would have been too difficult to avoid.

Well yes, but it wouldn't change anything. If Stalin hadn't annected baltic states 1940 he would still annect them 1945 when pushing the german army back.


The pact was signed, a week later war started in europe. Enough said.

Yeah, and western power behaviour at Munich and toleration of annection of Chechoslovakia (where Poland sided with Nazi-germany) was of course not significant.

[Lazarou]

Ignore the lies spread by the Western bourgeoisie and its Trotskyite spies. The glorious revolutionary Red Army of proletarians and peasants - encouraged by its strong Stalinist-Leninist will - engaged in an unselfish effort to liberate Poland, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania from capitalist oppression only in order to strengthen the Western border of our beloved Paradise of Peoples against the American, British and French interventionist vultures who were circling around our socialist achievements.
The name of Stalin - the lord of all the beasts of the Earth and fishes of the sea - will echo in our minds as a synonym of solidarity among nations now and forever. Long live the revolution, long live the communist party.

[Smok]

Yeah, and western power behaviour at Munich and toleration of annection of Chechoslovakia (where Poland sided with Nazi-germany) was of course not significant.

One word to make situation clear.
In 1938 Poland invaded Czechoslovakia and captured Zaolzie. This is true.
But after WWI Zaolzie was part of Poland! Czechoslovakia captured it, when Poland was fighting with Bolsheviks (in 1920).
So to be honest in 1938 we recaptured Zaolzie. Of course in very bad company.

[Kilgor]

Yeah, and western power behaviour at Munich and toleration of annection of Chechoslovakia (where Poland sided with Nazi-germany) was of course not significant.

Which is pretty much in line with the soviet propaganda at the time. "We were forced to sign the pact because of Britain and France"

The German & Soviet pact was years in the making and had been predicted by Walter Krivitsky the former head of intelligence in western europe. Stalin had been attempting to court Hitler for yeras. He had predicted a alliance when the rest of the world considered it the most unlikely partnership between two apparently bitter foes. He of course, had inside information.

28.12.33 - "Our relations with Germany have always occupied a distinct place in our international relations... The Soviet Union has no course on its part for any change of policy toward Germany." - Molotov

26.01.34 -" Of course we are far from enthusiastic about the Fascist regime in Germany. But Fascism is not the issue here, if only for the reason that Fascism, in Italy for example, did not prevent the Soviet Union from establishing good relations with the country." Stalin at the 17 party Congress.

"only fools can imagine we would ever break with Germany. What I am writing here is one thing-the realities are something else. No one can give us what Germany has given us. For us to break with Germany is simply Impossible". - Soviet writer Karl Radek.

Of course Hitler did finally sign a pact when it suited him with Stalin, the comming war and carve up of Europe. Something Germany could offer and no one else.

[koozya]

Serjey
with all due respect, such a crap you're writing. First of all, you should be thankfull to weather conditions since if it hadn't been for it, your beloved, schizofremic granddad Stalin would have escaped with all his comerades. Thanks to winter you didn't fall on your knees and not beacuse your strength, in fact you were escpaing like foxes from haunting dogs! By the way winter saved your asses twice!
sureeee. USSR was saved by the WINTER of course

[koozya]

Ignore the lies spread by the Western bourgeoisie and its Trotskyite spies. The glorious revolutionary Red Army of proletarians and peasants - encouraged by its strong Stalinist-Leninist will - engaged in an unselfish effort to liberate Poland, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania from capitalist oppression only in order to strengthen the Western border of our beloved Paradise of Peoples against the American, British and French interventionist vultures who were circling around our socialist achievements.
The name of Stalin - the lord of all the beasts of the Earth and fishes of the sea - will echo in our minds as a synonym of solidarity among nations now and forever. Long live the revolution, long live the communist party.
nice trolling

[Mr.K]

I'm counting on the Estonian secret service to expose Russia's responsibility for the extinction of the dinosaurs,the dodo bird and global warming.

[CPL Trevoga]

Ignore the lies spread by the Western bourgeoisie and its Trotskyite spies. The glorious revolutionary Red Army of proletarians and peasants - encouraged by its strong Stalinist-Leninist will - engaged in an unselfish effort to liberate Poland, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania from capitalist oppression only in order to strengthen the Western border of our beloved Paradise of Peoples against the American, British and French interventionist vultures who were circling around our socialist achievements.
The name of Stalin - the lord of all the beasts of the Earth and fishes of the sea - will echo in our minds as a synonym of solidarity among nations now and forever. Long live the revolution, long live the communist party.

Nice avatar commie. You really stupid guy, to put a man who attacked your country in your avatar.

Baltic republics joined USSR on their own free will. There is too much fact twisting nowadays. Did USSR take parts of Poland? Hell no, it was Western Belorussia that was taken in 1919, along with Baltics after WWI by Germans, who signed peace with Bolsheviks. As far as I'm concerned, USSR corrected past wrongs.

[lastdingo]

For Estonia, involvement in WW2 began with the Soviet invasion/annexation.

The historical starting date for WW2 as usually reported is 1939-09-01, but at that date nothing else but a rather small war between Germany and Poland started. In the next days, the British empire and the French became involved when they declared war on Germany because they had guaranteed Poland's sovereignty (that's why it can be argued that the British lost WW2 - they missed their official war objective).


I like to mention that Japan started the first hostilities of WW2 participants that continued till the main phase of WW2 - the invasion of China in 1937.

But it#s quite pointless to debate on who started it and so on because the much more interesting question is who caused it. Causing WW2 were ideologies in Germany's and Japan's governments that additional territories/areas of influence were needed for their nations' long-term prosperity. They were both wrong.

Had it not been for these causes, I guess Stalin would have caused an alternative WW2 with his ideology that communism/socialism needs to be spread by military force to people who cannot 'free' themselves by revolutions. That would have happened quite in the same timeframe (about 1940-1943) if there was no Hitler, I believe.

______

Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia didn't want to become part of the USSR, to tell something else is to twist history. The Estonian insurgency against Stalin ceased sometime around 1952.
Quite the same with Ukraine.

But CPL Trevoga was right with something at last; the areas that Poland had lost in 1945 weren't exactly polish areas. By primary language and ethnicity, most of it did rather belong to Byelorussia and Ukraine.
But I doubt that fairness was a reason for Stalin to rearrange the borders.

[Kilgor]

Baltic republics joined USSR on their own free will. There is too much fact twisting nowadays. .

:roll:

Are you for real ?

[Teme]

Baltic republics joined USSR on their own free will. There is too much fact twisting nowadays.

Oh dear...:roll:

Did you mean USSR joined to the Baltic Republics on it's own will...?

:roll:

[Lapata]

Pointless thread.Lokos should just end it .

[Digimon]

Hmm, like ... not invading his little neighbours? Doesn't sound like something that would have been too difficult to avoid.

I hope you have read Churchill’s account that I quoted. His understanding is that Russia needed to create a buffer zone to stall the attack – as Stalin admitted to Churchill in private, he thought that Russia had a few more months before the war with Germany. Russia also needed to buy time to reform the army after the purges in 1937.

Churchill says it was “vital” for the Russians to have that buffer zone – their intent was to prevent their own destruction. As Churchill points out through out the book, Russia worked hard on the diplomatic front to contain Germany. Neither Romania nor Poland would allow their airspace or land to transport Russian troops to save Czechoslovakia prior to Munich, they also refused passage after it. When Russian efforts failed and they realized they could count only on themselves, they concluded the pact and created the buffer zone at the expense of the states that either tried to remain neutral or were, in fact, hostile and unreliable in a case of conflict.

Given this situation, what were a responsible leader to do? Were they supposed to sacrifice millions of their own people for the sake of the countries that ripped Czechoslovakia to pieces?


Here is the layout according to Churchill, "the Soviet propoganda machine":


Stalin’s “Mutual assistance Pacts” with Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania had already led to the occupation and ruin of these countries, and the Red Army and Air Force now blocked every entry into the Soviet Union from the west, so far, at any rate, as Baltic route was concerned. There remained only the approach from Finland... The Soviet demands were sweeping: the Finish frontier on the Karelian Isthmus must be moved back a considerable distance so as to remove Leningrad from the range of hostile artillery. The cession of certain Finish islands in the Gulf of Finland; the lease of Finland’s only ice-free port in the Artic Sea, Petsamo; and, above all, the leasing of the port of Hango, at the entrance of the Gulf of Finland, as a Russian naval and airbase. The Finns were prepared to make concessions on every point except last. The negotiations broke down on November 13, and the Finnish Government began to mobilize. (Churchill’s Memoires)

[Ecchi Oni]

Digimon don't bother. For the western ***** Russia is always at fault, because it's Russia. Even if the pseudo countries of Baltic and Poland weren't occupied they still would bitch and moan as they always did. Guess balts don't like the fact that they were sold to russia like cattle for 700,000 gold coins by Sweden and the only "independence" they had was brought by germans during WW1. Well no matter when politic balance shifts as it did before they'll go back to Russia. Except for the ones cleaning toilets in Ireland. Those found their freedom.

[Kippari]

Okay, I think someone of should blow the whistle and close this thread.