The Best MANPAD or Shoulder launched SAM

[Sayeret]

What do you think is the best shoulder launched surface-to-air missile.

[Uninen]

Ive seen or handeled about all of these in real except for Blowpipe and Stinger, and of those remaining in the list, i know that IGLA is the best. (SA-18)

And also of the all the lectures ive had of MANPADs in general, i still would go with IGLA, which is simple, effective, ECM/FLARE resistant (dual band-seeker, and "unbreakable lock-on"..) and reliable plus has VERY good temperature tolerance. ;)

[Midav]

Dunno.

How has each performed in combat so far?

Kills?

Misses?

Resistance to ECM/flares?

Ease of use?

And the like.

[Aussie E]

Survey Says:
Unbreakable lock-on ehh?


SA-18 GROUSE
Igla 9K38
SA-N-10 GROUSE
Igla-M

The SA-18 GROUSE (Igla 9K38) is an improved variant in the the SA-7 & SA-14 series of manportable SAMs. As with the earlier SA-14, the SA-18 uses of a similar thermal battery/gas bottle, and the SA-18 has the same 2 kilogram high-explosive warhead fitted with a contact and grazing fuse. But the missile of entirely new design with substantially improved range and speed,. The new seeker and aerodynamic improvements extend its effective range, and its higher speed enables it to be used against faster targets. The SA-18 has a maximum range of 5200 meters and a maximum altitude of 3500 meters. The 9M39 missile SA-18 employs an IR guidance system using proportional convergence logic. The new seeker offers better protection against electro-optical jammers; the probability of kill against an unprotected fighter is estimated at 30-48%, and the use of IRCM jammers only degrades this to 24-30%. The Igla-M [SA-N-10 ] is the naval version of the SA-18.
Unbreakable lock-on would equal 100% kill probablity, right? Am I missing something here? p-)
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/sa-18.htm

[GazB]

Am I missing something here?

You are missing that although Fas is a handy place to look for info there are major errors and mistakes in the information there... for example look up the R-77 and it shows a picture of an AMRAAM with its fins not fitted.

You will also note that it mentions unprotected fighters, and IR jammers but not flares... why would they be not mentioned considering most aircraft rely on little else for protection?

There is no such thing as a sure thing, but Igla is very good, and more importantly cheap.

The MANPAD class of missile is not much good unless it is widely deployed.

BTW I wonder why a certain laser guided Swedish missile isn't included, or for that matter Starstreak. (Blowpipe is heavy and largely useless, but Starstreak looks very good).

[perdurabo]

WHERE IS GROM ?? :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
its way better than Stinger and Igla! (we had "borrowed" documentations of both. Vivat Marian Zacharski!)

[-Max2-]

Where is the RBS-70 ? ;)

About MANPADS, the Mistral 2 looks also very effective...


-MISTRAL 2 has a 93% proven success rate and higher reliability than any other existing low level air defence missile.

-MISTRAL 2 is capable of engaging aerial targets having a low infrared signature, be they helicopters, UAVs or supersonic aircraft. The missile maximal speed is Mach 2.5 and its maximal interception range is 6 000 meters.

MAIN FEATURES and ADVANTAGES

Efficiency
-regardless of the presentation of the target,
-short interception time,
-against aircraft, helicopters, sea skimmers, UAVs,
-lethal (efficient warhead with proximity fuse and high guidance precision),
-highly reliable, very simple maintenance.

Simplicity
-Easier to install, easier to use: fire-and-forget engagement mode (no one involved in guidance),
-minimum training required,
-very low reaction time (can be kept on alert for long periods),
-used in stand-alone or coordinated mode.

Versatility
-the same missile can be used from various platforms (vehicles, surface ships, helicopters),
-operated in different environments: -46°C to +71°C,
-humidity up to 95%,
-can resist strong vibrations,
-naval environment,
-insensitive to crosswinds.




More than 1 500 MISTRAL 1 and MISTRAL 2 missiles have been fired by many armed force units under realistic operational conditions with a 93% success rate on a large range of targets (from hovering helicopters to high-speed jet-drones).

More than 15,000 MISTRAL 1 and MISTRAL 2 missiles and the associated firing systems have been ordered by 37 Armed Forces in 25 different countries including eight in Europe, eight in Pacific Asia, four in the Middle East and five in South America.

source: http://www.mbda.net/site/FO/scripts/siteFO_contenu.php?lang=EN&noeu_id=90

[ronin2172]

Where is the RBS-70 ? ;)

About MANPADS, the Mistral 2 looks also very effective...


-MISTRAL 2 has a 93% proven success rate and higher reliability than any other existing low level air defence missile.

-MISTRAL 2 is capable of engaging aerial targets having a low infrared signature, be they helicopters, UAVs or supersonic aircraft. The missile maximal speed is Mach 2.5 and its maximal interception range is 6 000 meters.

MAIN FEATURES and ADVANTAGES

Efficiency
-regardless of the presentation of the target,
-short interception time,
-against aircraft, helicopters, sea skimmers, UAVs,
-lethal (efficient warhead with proximity fuse and high guidance precision),
-highly reliable, very simple maintenance.

Simplicity
-Easier to install, easier to use: fire-and-forget engagement mode (no one involved in guidance),
-minimum training required,
-very low reaction time (can be kept on alert for long periods),
-used in stand-alone or coordinated mode.

Versatility
-the same missile can be used from various platforms (vehicles, surface ships, helicopters),
-operated in different environments: -46°C to +71°C,
-humidity up to 95%,
-can resist strong vibrations,
-naval environment,
-insensitive to crosswinds.




More than 1 500 MISTRAL 1 and MISTRAL 2 missiles have been fired by many armed force units under realistic operational conditions with a 93% success rate on a large range of targets (from hovering helicopters to high-speed jet-drones).

More than 15,000 MISTRAL 1 and MISTRAL 2 missiles and the associated firing systems have been ordered by 37 Armed Forces in 25 different countries including eight in Europe, eight in Pacific Asia, four in the Middle East and five in South America.

source: http://www.mbda.net/site/FO/scripts/siteFO_contenu.php?lang=EN&noeu_id=90

not saying that mistral is crap but u can't truly believe what the manufacturer says on their website...they r trying to sell the missle afterall! Exocet was/is a best selling missle yet in it's only combat usage (the falklands) it wasn't all that effective, HMS Sheffield was done in by the fire started by the missles motor not the warhead, and most of the rest were fooled by decoys (prince Andrew flew some of those missions). With the exception of HMS Sheffield the rest of the British ship losses were from plain ol iron bombs. Aerospatiale didn't mention this fact! I can't blame them i wouldn't have either

Realistic operational conditions.....l don't think the drones replicated a violently maneuvering aircraft flown by live, desperate, my ass is gonna die if i screw up pilot!lol

[HELEX]

At what I heard, the Mistral is the best RBS 70 is not really shoulder launched but also very good.

[-Max2-]

not saying that mistral is crap but u can't truly believe what the manufacturer says on their website...they r trying to sell the missle afterall!

25 countries use the Mistral. Its a pledge of quality i believe...


Exocet was/is a best selling missle yet in it's only combat usage (the falklands) it wasn't all that effective, HMS Sheffield was done in by the fire started by the missles motor not the warhead, and most of the rest were fooled by decoys (prince Andrew flew some of those missions). With the exception of HMS Sheffield the rest of the British ship losses were from plain ol iron bombs. Aerospatiale didn't mention this fact! I can't blame them i wouldn't have either.

Wrong. The Exocet was used during the Iran-Iraq war with some success: 115 Iranians tankers, containers ship, bulk carriers, etc were lost (either sunk or "considered total damage") after being hit by Iraqi Exocets. And the USS Stark destroyer was also hit by a Exocet and nearly sunk...

For the HMS Sheffield, despite the warhead did not detonate, he nevertheless sunk. And dont forget the Atlantic Conveyor...

[HELEX]

not saying that mistral is crap but u can't truly believe what the manufacturer says on their website...they r trying to sell the missle afterall!

25 countries use the Mistral. Its a pledge of quality i believe...


Exocet was/is a best selling missle yet in it's only combat usage (the falklands) it wasn't all that effective, HMS Sheffield was done in by the fire started by the missles motor not the warhead, and most of the rest were fooled by decoys (prince Andrew flew some of those missions). With the exception of HMS Sheffield the rest of the British ship losses were from plain ol iron bombs. Aerospatiale didn't mention this fact! I can't blame them i wouldn't have either.

Wrong. The Exocet was used during the Iran-Iraq war with some success: 115 Iranians tankers, containers ship, bulk carriers, etc were lost (either sunk or "considered total damage") after being hit by Iraqi Exocets. And the USS Stark destroyer was also hit by a Exocet and nearly sunk...

For the HMS Sheffield, despite the warhead did not detonate, he nevertheless sunk. And dont forget the Atlantic Conveyor...

Not to forget the Argentineans only had very few of the Exocet, so they used free falling Bombs most of the time.

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Falklands/Exocet.html

[American Patriot]

FIM-92 Stinger-RMP Block II

[ronin2172]

not saying that mistral is crap but u can't truly believe what the manufacturer says on their website...they r trying to sell the missle afterall!

25 countries use the Mistral. Its a pledge of quality i believe...


Exocet was/is a best selling missle yet in it's only combat usage (the falklands) it wasn't all that effective, HMS Sheffield was done in by the fire started by the missles motor not the warhead, and most of the rest were fooled by decoys (prince Andrew flew some of those missions). With the exception of HMS Sheffield the rest of the British ship losses were from plain ol iron bombs. Aerospatiale didn't mention this fact! I can't blame them i wouldn't have either.

Wrong. The Exocet was used during the Iran-Iraq war with some success: 115 Iranians tankers, containers ship, bulk carriers, etc were lost (either sunk or "considered total damage") after being hit by Iraqi Exocets. And the USS Stark destroyer was also hit by a Exocet and nearly sunk...

For the HMS Sheffield, despite the warhead did not detonate, he nevertheless sunk. And dont forget the Atlantic Conveyor...
u say atlantic conveyor..ok (not a warship, no missles or guns to defend itself and at anchor. Didn't need a super missle to sink that ) USS Stark (not during a war + the vulcan was turned off i remember), 115 various tankers, bulk carriers and such, hardly make for great examples this is considered combat proven? to me combat proven would be multiple kills against targets that are difficult to kill. Tell me it breached multiple layers of defence then i'll say it is a helluva missle. Merchant shipping does not require a world beating missle to sink. The exocet was sold because of it's rep against warships not civillian ships.

I don't care if 100 countries, i never said it was crap i said u can never trust stats posted by the manufacturer, u have info from an independant, non biased source, then ok i'll give it more credance.

[oldsoak]

Starstreak should be on there - not exactly fire and forget though as it has to be guided onto the target - SACLOS as I recall. It does mean that IR flares wont affect it.
Is possible to get a bad modern MANPADS ? Certainly anything in the same generation of Mistral, IGLA etc would fit the job. BTW, considering the Israeli expertise in designing their own missiles, have they ever designed and fielded a MANPADS ?

[Uninen]

Unbreakable lock-on would equal 100% kill probablity, right? Am I missing something here? p-)
No, it has +75% kill propability, and if you actually would know anything about air denfence and MANPADS, you would also know that the operator dont have anykinds of range finders so theres real possibility that he will launch the missile when the target is still out of effective range and so the missile becomes much more ineffective, and is more likely to miss.... and even the pilot of the targeted plane can try to evade the missile if he spots it in time, IE JUST PULL UP.... and again any MANPAD is quite likely to miss.

and also, the missile operator rarely has the accurate info about the targets speed, which also if too high, will reduce the effectiveness of the missile.

[-Max2-]

u say atlantic conveyor..ok (not a warship, no missles or guns to defend itself and at anchor. Didn't need a super missle to sink that ) USS Stark (not during a war + the vulcan was turned off i remember), 115 various tankers, bulk carriers and such, hardly make for great examples this is considered combat proven?

Nearly 120 ships sunk or heavily damaged is a good combat record for me. Anti-ship missiles like the Harpoon do not have this record. The Exocet is simply the most combat-proven anti-ship in the word. No matter it was a tanker or a destroyer...


to me combat proven would be multiple kills against targets that are difficult to kill. Tell me it breached multiple layers of defence then i'll say it is a helluva missle. Merchant shipping does not require a world beating missle to sink. The exocet was sold because of it's rep against warships not civillian ships.

The HMS Sheffield was one of the most modern ship of the Royal Navy and he was unable to detect and destroy a single Exocet...


I don't care if 100 countries, i never said it was crap i said u can never trust stats posted by the manufacturer, u have info from an independant, non biased source, then ok i'll give it more credance.

I dont have any others infos about the Mistral success rate, but the Mistral has a quite good reputation in the MANPADS market... ;)

[Scrim]

Edited by request

[ronin2172]

u say atlantic conveyor..ok (not a warship, no missles or guns to defend itself and at anchor. Didn't need a super missle to sink that ) USS Stark (not during a war + the vulcan was turned off i remember), 115 various tankers, bulk carriers and such, hardly make for great examples this is considered combat proven?

Nearly 120 ships sunk or heavily damaged is a good combat record for me. Anti-ship missiles like the Harpoon do not have this record. The Exocet is simply the most combat-proven anti-ship in the word. No matter it was a tanker or a destroyer...


to me combat proven would be multiple kills against targets that are difficult to kill. Tell me it breached multiple layers of defence then i'll say it is a helluva missle. Merchant shipping does not require a world beating missle to sink. The exocet was sold because of it's rep against warships not civillian ships.

The HMS Sheffield was one of the most modern ship of the Royal Navy and he was incapable to detect and destroy a single Exocet...

I don't care if 100 countries, i never said it was crap i said u can never trust stats posted by the manufacturer, u have info from an independant, non biased source, then ok i'll give it more credance.

I dont have any others infos about the Mistral success rate, but the Mistral has a quite good reputation in the MANPADS market... ;)

here is an excerpt from a book talking about the air war in the Falklands....

"The Radar emissions should have been picked up by the Sheffield in time for the crew to launch a cloud of chaff to confuse the Exocet's homing radar, but at that moment they were masked by transmissions from from her satellite communications equipment; operators breifly saw two blip son their screens as the Super Entendards rose to 120 ft, they then disapeared again."
-"Rolling Thunder" by Ivan Rendall

well out of 120 kills only two were warships...both of which had serious deffeciencies allowing the exocet to hit. And of those two combat kills the warhead failed to explode in one instance. hardly a enviable record. The fact that it killed a lot of civillian ships does not make it an outstanding weapon. In that case there should be a case for the silkworm to be no.1.

[Midav]

I'll ask again:

How has each performed in combat so far?

Kills?

Misses?

Resistance to ECM/flares?

Ease of use?

And the like.

[SiFiOn]

FIM-92 Stinger-RMP Block II

Agreed!

[Aussie E]

and even the pilot of the targeted plane can try to evade the missile if he spots it in time, IE JUST PULL UP.... and again any MANPAD is quite likely to miss.


And also of the all the lectures ive had of MANPADs in general, i still would go with IGLA, which is simple, effective, ECM/FLARE resistant (dual band-seeker, and "unbreakable lock-on"..) and reliable plus has VERY good temperature tolerance.

If this is the case where did "unbreakable lock-on" come from? Is this a refence to the durability of the targeting device? I'm still missing something here. And it's not my mind, I checked for that this morning it was still in it's glass jar in the fridge next to the Victoria Bitter.

[Uninen]

:cantbeli:

IE, when you "aim" it, it locks on to the target aircraft, after which its electronics and dual-band (IR/UV) seeker does not change targets, IE target the "hottest spot" IE flare / sun, but it remains locked in the target it was aimed and fired on. It remembers to at what it was aimed at, and keeps its "eye" on that, unlike strela, which has tendency to just chase the "hottest source"... IE change targets when "on route"...... blaah, blaaah, blaaah.

;)

But whatever.........

[Aussie E]

Thanks for the clarifaction. I was having some trouble comprehending what you were trying to convey, but your last post was like taking a dishrag to a dirty beer glass. All is understood now. Once again thanks for the clarifaction.

[marktigger]

can we update this list as Blowpipe is so 1970's!!!!!!!!

Starburst or HVM is a much better product

[LordHalbert]

Another aspect of SAM is the ability to out turn/maneuver it's target.

A SAM can maintain lock but can still miss if the target maneuvers in way to defeat the missiles turning ability - in fact this is probably the most effective way of defeating SAMs.

A good SAM missile will not only maintain lock on the intended target (not go after sun etc.. ) but will make aggressive maneuvers to solve the problem of hitting the target (or getting close enough - proximity detonation).

So in other words, the missile should have a high G turn rating and a low latency in reacting to changes in the target's flight pattern.

[Hydro]

can we update this list as Blowpipe is so 1970's!!!!!!!!

Starburst or HVM is a much better product

Hehe, Blowpipe :) The name of it is a pretty good description of its abilities ;)

[hihihi_ch]

I only know the stinger so I can't say anything about the others, but his tracker(english word?) is very effective. I really don't want to be in an aircraft who is followed by a stinger! woot

[SiFiOn]

I only know the stinger so I can't say anything about the others, but his tracker(english word?) is very effective. I really don't want to be in an aircraft who is followed by a stinger! woot

Well said here!