A Woman in Berlin (1945 diary)

[stonecutter]

Has anyone read this? The full title is "A Woman In Berlin: Eight Weeks in the Conquered City". I just finished it, and it was quite interesting, reading about daily civilian life during and after the Russian advance into the capital in the final days of WWII.
She deals matter-of-factly with all the raping that happened ("better to have a Russkie on top than a Yank overhead" was a common saying in Berlin at the time), and apart from that I was quite surprised at how "well" the German citizens were treated by the victorious Red Army. Some difficult days were had with the food situation (understandable), however authorities ensured that food rations returned rather quickly, and if the Soviets forced the Germans to work, they paid them for their labour in the end.

Definitely a worthwhile and interesting read.

[XASA]

Has anyone read this? The full title is "A Woman In Berlin: Eight Weeks in the Conquered City". I just finished it, and it was quite interesting, reading about daily civilian life during and after the Russian advance into the capital in the final days of WWII.
She deals matter-of-factly with all the raping that happened ("better to have a Russkie on top than a Yank overhead" was a common saying in Berlin at the time), and apart from that I was quite surprised at how "well" the German citizens were treated by the victorious Red Army. Some difficult days were had with the food situation (understandable), however authorities ensured that food rations returned rather quickly, and if the Soviets forced the Germans to work, they paid them for their labour in the end.

Definitely a worthwhile and interesting read.

I read it last year. Great book about surviving under difficult conditions. I wouldn't say the Russians were depicted as treating Berliners "well," despite the author's relationship with a decent Russian officer who provided her with food and a semblance of protection from other Russians.

[Thor]

The germans also payed their workers (like czech workers) and handed enough food to keep them performing and their families alive. Anything else would have been counterproductive. Don't mistake rational acts for acts of good.

And also remember that the reason the german population starved was because the Red Army plundered the food reserves they were living off.

[stonecutter]

Don't mistake rational acts for acts of good.

Makes sense. But, another rational act for the Soviets might have been to deport half the German population eastward, to help rebuild destroyed cities and villages. Could have been a lot worse. What impressed me was the relatively benign way that German citizens were treated by the Red Army, after all the depradations of the German Army against the Soviet "Untermensch".

[Thor]

Makes sense. But, another rational act for the Soviets might have been to deport half the German population eastward, to help rebuild destroyed cities and villages.
They had plenty of POWs for that as well as large numbers of deported civilians, of which many never returned home.


What impressed me was the relatively benign way that German citizens were treated by the Red Army
That's not worthy of a comment.


You should read "Stalin's Revenge". The war crimes of the Red Army were on such a massive scale that the commanders lost control of large parts of it from time to time. Later on they had to take drastic measures to stop the chaos. Again, rational acts.

[XASA]

Makes sense. But, another rational act for the Soviets might have been to deport half the German population eastward, to help rebuild destroyed cities and villages. Could have been a lot worse. What impressed me was the relatively benign way that German citizens were treated by the Red Army, after all the depradations of the German Army against the Soviet "Untermensch".

I don't think you can base your opinion that the Red Army treated Germans well on one memoir. Most historical tracts detail the brutality of the Russians once they entered Germany. Contemporary Russian literature from that time incited the Red Army to commit heinous acts in revenge for how the Germans destroyed their country. As many as 2,000,000 German women were raped. They also kept open several concentration camps for Germans who disagreed with them. Thousands of Germans-- both civilians and military-- were sent back to Russia as slave labor. Millions more were deported from what was formerly East Prussia and East Europe to the west up until 1949, which resulted in the deaths of thousands. They weren't as bad as the Nazis but I would hardly call them "benign".

Another good read, if a bit long at more than 1,000 pages, is "Faust's Berlin" by Alexandra Richie. It is a history of Berlin from Roman times to the present (the city didn't exist until the Middle Ages but Richie discusses the early ebb and flow of culture and ethnic groups in what became Berlin). The chapter on the fall of Berlin graphically describes the horror inflicted on the civilian population by the Russians during the battle and immediately after it. Of course, the Nazis set the stage by not declaring Berlin an open city.

[stonecutter]

Thanks, I'll look up those works.

[XASA]

Thanks, I'll look up those works.

Correction on my suggestion:

The correct title is "Faust's Metropolis".

[Lokos]

The war crimes of the Red Army were on such a massive scale that the commanders lost control of large parts of it from time to time

Like, say, when?

I will enjoy reading your answer. Or lack thereof.


As many as 2,000,000 German women were raped

Yes, that old estimate from one German GP living in Berlin. I'd love to know how he came to that figure.

Lokos

[Indiana Jones]

Finally found some time again...



Quote:
As many as 2,000,000 German women were raped
Yes, that old estimate from one German GP living in Berlin. I'd love to know how he came to that figure.

Lokos

I will not go into great detail, let it suffice to say that the number mentioned actually is very much on the low side. Multiple rapes, which according to all accounts occured frequently are not included. On the methodology, which is solid, see:
Sander/John (Ed.): Befreier und Befreite. Krieg, Vergewaltigung, Kinder. Fischer, Frankfurt a. M. 2004.

[Thor]

Like, say, when?
E.g. the infamous period around january-february 1945 after which drastic measures were taken to restore order among the red troops.


I will enjoy reading your answer. Or lack thereof.
And I think you would do best in continue writing amateurish novels about imaginary wars.

[CPL Trevoga]

As many as 2,000,000 German women were raped. They also kept open several concentration camps for Germans who disagreed with them. Thousands of Germans-- both civilians and military-- were sent back to Russia as slave labor.

Sweet Jesus, 2,000,000 rapes, compared to unknown number of Soviet civilian killed or starved (at least dosen of millions according to official numbers) makes Red Army pretty benign occupiers in comparison, don't you think? By the way, 2 mil number is whats called, a number pulled out of ass. It's a pure smear campaign. Rapes did occurred, but not on this scale.

As far as German labor, POW were used to rebuild parts of Minsk for example. In the center of Minsk, by the Victory square there are many buildings built by German POW.

Rape of Nanking is a fugure of speech buddy. Japs were killing Chinese civilians, not raping them.

[XASA]

The story of the Fall of Berlin and the number of German women raped is pretty consistent across the board from several sources. Instead of listing the sources individually, here's what Google came up with when queried:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=How+many+German+women+raped+by+Russian+Army%3F&btnG=Google+Search

War is hell, especially if you are a woman in a conquered city; it's been that way since the dawn of history. Like the Rape of Nanking, the Rape of Berlin and how many women were brutalized is a historical fact. It's always amazing how people want to revise history when it reflects badly on their country or culture. I don't condone what the Russians did but I certainly understand why they did it.

[Weasel]

You should read "Stalin's Revenge". The war crimes of the Red Army were on such a massive scale that the commanders lost control of large parts of it from time to time. Later on they had to take drastic measures to stop the chaos. Again, rational acts.

My grandmother buried all kitchen knife outside in the garden because she feared to be slaughtered with these knifes by the russian troops. Sounds hilarious but the fear among the population (especially women) was huge.

[Thor]

2,000,000 rapes, compared to unknown number of Soviet civilian killed or starved (at least dosen of millions according to official numbers) makes Red Army pretty benign occupiers in comparison, don't you think?
No. Watching someone try to justify war crimes makes me sick. Two wrongs never make one right.


It's a pure smear campaign. Rapes did occurred, but not on this scale.
Yes, we'll go for the official Soviet version. Damn those fascist-capitalist lies.

[CPL Trevoga]

No. Watching someone try to justify war crimes makes me sick.
What makes me sick is baseless accusations and smear . Over 4,000 soldiers where executed for crimes during that period. They had their sh*t together.



Yes, we'll go for the official Soviet version. Damn those fascist-capitalist lies.

Of course let's believe every idiot with a pen who lives in the West, because he lives in "free and democratic" society. You know, West has a monopoly in truth.

[Lokos]

E.g. the infamous period around january-february 1945 after which drastic measures were taken to restore order among the red troops.


Care to provide some details about this 'infamous period'? Which commanders lost control over which units, exactly?

No answer? Little Thor once again fails to make his case? Oh noes! Not again! It happens to you in every thread where you offer your opinion. It's cause you don't know squat, Thor.


And I think you would do best in continue writing amateurish novels about imaginary wars

Oh, well now you've done it. Now you've hurt my feelings. Boohoohoo!


Like the Rape of Nanking, the Rape of Berlin and how many women were brutalized is a historical fact

What makes the figure provided a 'historical fact'? An allegation based on the estimate of a German GP living in Berlin at the time?

How very factual.

No one denies rapes occurred. Only the scale is disputed.

Lokos

[Midav]

Much of my Opa's (Grandfather's) family lived in the German state of Thueringen. Not long after the war ended, he rode his bike every night for several weeks to move family from Thueringen to Hessen, where other parts of the family lived and to get into a US sector.

One of my Great-Aunts was raped by Russians and had a hate for them you couldn't believe. She was married to a staunch nazi (hey i hate the nazi party with a passion) but that gave no right to what happened to her. From what I understand she was in a cellar with several women when they were found by Russians.

It's a terrible tragedy that happened and a lot of women were raped.

[Weasel]

Much of my Opa's (Grandfather's) family lived in the German state of Thueringen. Not long after the war ended, he rode his bike every night for several weeks to move family from Thueringen to Hessen, where other parts of the family lived and to get into a US sector.

One of my Great-Aunts was raped by Russians and had a hate for them you couldn't believe. She was married to a staunch nazi (hey i hate the nazi party with a passion) but that gave no right to what happened to her. From what I understand she was in a cellar with several women when they were found by Russians.

It's a terrible tragedy that happened and a lot of women were raped.

Sorry to hear that, Midav. There are so many bad stories out there. :|

[Midav]

Sorry to hear that, Midav. There are so many bad stories out there. :|

Felt sorry for her and yes, many such stories.. from all sides.

Here's a picture history about my German side in WW2:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=91106&highlight=bechmann

[XASA]

To the few who are challenging what happened during the Battle of Berlin, can you please provide us with what you consider an accurate number based on a reputable source instead of casting aspersions and making accusations based on what seems like pure emotion, nationalism and revisionism. If you have information that contradicts the wide body of work on the subject, I'd be interested in seeing it. Until then, please don't mind not being taken seriously.

[Indiana Jones]

What makes the figure provided a 'historical fact'? An allegation based on the estimate of a German GP living in Berlin at the time?

How very factual.

No one denies rapes occurred. Only the scale is disputed.

Lokos
Lokos, Mr. Trevoga,
I provided you with some literature which explains the genesis of this figure and provides a detailed, quantified and verifiable analysis of Soviet rapes in Germany as well as German rapes in the Ukraine. I recommend you read it; As far as the total number is concerned, if you occupy yourself with the matter at hand it will become quickly apparent that 2 Millions is indeed a very low estimate. You will further notice that rapes also were also committed on a grand scale by the RKKA in Belorussia, the Ukraine, the Baltics and Polands.
Just a small sample of primary sources from the Bundesarchiv-Lastenausgleichsarchiv Bayreuth on the issue:
OD 1-159-482
OD 1-181-433-554
BA-MA RH2/2684 ff...
I do not know the respective NARA rolls, but they should be easy to determine.

[Weasel]

Felt sorry for her and yes, many such stories.. from all sides.

Here's a picture history about my German side in WW2:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=91106&highlight=bechmann

Good photos, good remembrance. It´s a piece of history ans should be treated as such.

Somehow I have in my mind that you are a Jew. Is it true or am I totally wrong? (if you like to answer)

[Lokos]

can you please provide us with what you consider an accurate number based on a reputable source instead of casting aspersions and making accusations based on what seems like pure emotion, nationalism and revisionism

There are no accurate numbers. That's the point, champ.

Emotion, nationalism and... revisionism (?) have nothing to do with it.

I don't know what's revisionistic about challenging a guesstimate, but hey. Whatever.

Lokos

[Midav]

Good photos, good remembrance. It´s a piece of history ans should be treated as such.

Somehow I have in my mind that you are a Jew. Is it true or am I totally wrong? (if you like to answer)

Thank you!!

My great grandparents were Jewish... as was my Opa, several uncles and aunts. In order to survive they hid that fact. My Oma was not so technically I am only like 1/4 Jewish lol

[Weasel]

Thank you!!

My great grandparents were Jewish... as was my Opa, several uncles and aunts. In order to survive they hid that fact. My Oma was not so technically I am only like 1/4 Jewish lol

Your grandfather was in the german Luftwaffe and was able to hind the fact that he´s jewish? While airborne he had to fear to get shot down, while on ground he had to fear to be revealed. What a life. :|

[Lokos]

Sander/John (Ed.): Befreier und Befreite. Krieg, Vergewaltigung, Kinder. Fischer, Frankfurt a. M. 2004.


Didn't see this. Worth a look, though the fact that it's in German obviously makes things more difficult. Is there a translation? And I obviously don't have access to the Bundesarchiv primary sources...

I don't mind being proven wrong, I just like it being done with solid evidence.

Lokos

[Midav]

Your grandfather was in the german Luftwaffe and was able to hind the fact that he´s jewish? While airborne he had to fear to get shot down, while on ground he had to fear to be revealed. What a life. :|

He never spoke about his heritage much. We found out only in the later years of his life. He did talk about the war from time to time, though. I have an article from 1945 where it explains when the Germans were pushed out of Greece where they had to walk 1800km's to get to Vienna. Took almost half a year I believe.

[XASA]

There are no accurate numbers. That's the point, champ.

Emotion, nationalism and... revisionism (?) have nothing to do with it.

I don't know what's revisionistic about challenging a guesstimate, but hey. Whatever.

Lokos

You've been provided with several sources from Google and by Indiana Jones; however, you expect us to disregard those sources just because you say so? Sounds like a flaky agrument even for MP.net.

Like I said, if you think the 2,000,000 figure is too high, provide us with some information based on a reputable source that supports your position and you might regain some credibility. Until you can provide us with some facts, you'll have to excuse me for continuing to think you are advocating "the revision of an accepted, usually long standing view, theory, or doctrine, especially a revision of historical events." (Webster's definition of revisionism since you don't seem to understand the word).

[Midav]

Antony Beevor has a book out called Berlin: The Downfall 1945

http://www.antonybeevor.com/

Supposedly it has many Russian witnesses. It's also explained the majority of rapes were done by second-line troops.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,707835,00.html

[Weasel]

He never spoke about his heritage much. We found out only in the later years of his life. He did talk about the war from time to time, though. I have an article from 1945 where it explains when the Germans were pushed out of Greece where they had to walk 1800km's to get to Vienna. Took almost half a year I believe.

The family of my grandfather was expelled from todays Poland. His sister was raped by Russians, too. The family lost all belongings and started a new life in west Germany. A few years ago my father invited my grandfather for a short trip to Poland to visit his birthplace and they had to appease the new residents to make sure that we don´t want the house back. :)

[Indiana Jones]

Didn't see this. Worth a look, though the fact that it's in German obviously makes things more difficult. Is there a translation? And I obviously don't have access to the Bundesarchiv primary sources...

I don't mind being proven wrong, I just like it being done with solid evidence.

Lokos
I am afraid there is no translation available. However there is a companion TV documentary which should be quite interesting, "Liberators take Liberties". The feminist tendencies ( and lack of a degree on the part of Sander, I have to admit-Johr is a historian) of the authors made me somewhat suspicious concerning the scholarly substance of the book, but upon scrutinizing the sources I found it surprisingly solid and conservative.
It must be understood that a topos such as this still is a very sensitive affair in German academia (and politics) and could easily and thoroughly sully a scholarly reputation, which apparently is one of the reasons Johr went to extraordinary pains to assure her material is waterproof.

[CPL Trevoga]

You've been provided with several sources from Google and by Indiana Jones; however, you expect us to disregard those sources just because you say so? Sounds like a flaky agrument even for MP.net.

Like I said, if you think the 2,000,000 figure is too high, provide us with some information based on a reputable source that supports your position and you might regain some credibility. Until you can provide us with some facts, you'll have to excuse me for continuing to think you are advocating "the revision of an accepted, usually long standing view, theory, or doctrine, especially a revision of historical events." (Webster's definition of revisionism since you don't seem to understand the word).

Assh*ole, you're the one who's making accusations here. All you did was a google search and you call it "my sources". You can shove that kind of "proof" up yours. All those article, if you read them, point to one man, Anthony f*cking Beevor, who wrote a book alleging "mass rapes." His work is a pulp fiction, based on a few eyewitness accounts.

[Lokos]

XASA:

Firstly, you need to lie back, and reflect.

Secondly, read my friggin' posts, and then repeat the step outlined above, before posting inane rubbish.


You've been provided with several sources from Google and by Indiana Jones; however, you expect us to disregard those sources just because you say so? Sounds like a flaky agrument even for MP.net.


I dismissed one source out of hand, and that was Beevor's Berlin book, for the reason outlined above. Indiana's sources I have no access to, and therefore cannot dismiss. Your Google-tastic sources I have much less patience for.


Like I said, if you think the 2,000,000 figure is too high, provide us with some information based on a reputable source that supports your position and you might regain some credibility.

... Did you even read what I wrote?


(Webster's definition of revisionism since you don't seem to understand the word).

I know what revisionism is, Dilbert, what I don't know is how I'm supposed to be revising something not accepted as historical truth by the wider community. Call me a sceptic. Don't call me a revisionist.

Lokos

[Midav]

Assh*ole, you're the one who's making accusations here. All you did was a google search and you call it "my sources". You can shove that kind of "proof" up yours. All those article, if you read them, point to one man, Anthony f*cking Beevor, who wrote a book alleging "mass rapes." His work is a pulp fiction, based on a few eyewitness accounts.

There were also Russian witnesses besides thousands of others.

And if that doesn't count, there is my family that witnessed much, including rape. They fled east to go west.

No one is blaming the entire red army as it was pointed out the vast majority of rapes occurred by second echelon troops who were less disciplined. But denying it is like meeting people who deny the holocaust happened or declare that only a few Jews and Gypsies were killed and not as widespread.

Here's another source:

http://mars.vnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/berlin/lectures/21RapeofBerlin.html

(Source: Anthony Read and David Fisher, Berlin Rising: The Biography of a City (New York: W.W. Norton & Company, 1994). This book is out of print.)

[Midav]

The family of my grandfather was expelled from todays Poland. His sister was raped by Russians, too. The family lost all belongings and started a new life in west Germany. A few years ago my father invited my grandfather for a short trip to Poland to visit his birthplace and they had to appease the new residents to make sure that we don´t want the house back. :)

Very interesting history! Like in Thueringen, everything was taken away from the family anyway. Well glad your family doesn't want thew house back lol :)

[XASA]

Well, it didn't take long for a friendly history thread to turn ugly, did it guys:)

Back on topic. I would very much appreciate seeing facts and not reading personal opinions. If the figure of 2,000,000 German women raped by the Red Army is incorrect, it shouldn't be that difficult to share with us your sources. Then, perhaps, we can have an intelligent discussion without resorting to insults.

[Indiana Jones]

Gentlemen, while it is essentially none of my business, this discussion would benefit greatly from a moderation in tone. Fortiter in re, suaviter in modo !
On the subject of Anthony Beevor:
Mr. Beevor employs precisely the sources which I have mentioned. (Reichling, Johr, etc.) They are have been suspected to peer review and are widely considered to be reasonably accurate among the community of historians. Furthermore, while the actual numbers of rapes cannot be precisely established, the presented estimates represent for various reasons a only a low, minimum figure which can be substantiated to such a high degree to be basically beyond reasonable doubt.
Therefore the burden of proof rests indeed on the shoulders of those who wish to litigate the results of these examinations.
I would again recommend to anybody interested on the subject to read the works in question prior to apodictically dismissing it as "smear", and to refrain from questioning its authors academic integrity.

[Kilgor]

Assh*ole, you're the one who's making accusations here. All you did was a google search and you call it "my sources". You can shove that kind of "proof" up yours. All those article, if you read them, point to one man, Anthony f*cking Beevor, who wrote a book alleging "mass rapes." His work is a pulp fiction, based on a few eyewitness accounts.

Beevor is just the popular messenger. The "mass rape" issue was well known before Beevor even put a pen to the page to write Berlin.

What we do know is that there was a extremely high number of rapes by soviet soldiers on german soil. Given the choatic conditions at the time, it is pointless and impossible to place a number on the figures. However given the number of soviet troops and the fact a woman can be raped many times, the figure is surely high.

Stop blaming Beevor, he only made the issue widely known via his popular books. Here are some "other" views...

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's - Prussian nights.
Twenty-two Hoeringstrasse.
It's not been burned, just looted, rifled.
A moaning by the walls, half muffled: the mother's wounded, half alive. The little daughter's on the mattress, dead.
How many have been on it?
A platoon, a company perhaps?
A girl's been turned into a woman,
a woman turned into a corpse. . . .
The mother begs, "Soldier, kill me!"

Uncle "Joe" Stalin
Yugoslavian Communist leader Milovan Djilas complained to Stalin about the rapacious nature of Soviet soldiers, Stalin complained, "Can't he understand it if a solider who has crossed thousands of kilometers through blood and fire and death has fun with a woman or takes some trifle?"

Soviet War Journalist Vasily Grossman
The novelist Vasily Grossman, a war correspondent attached to the invading Red Army, soon discovered that rape victims were not just Germans. Polish women also suffered. So did young Russian, Belorussian and Ukrainian women who had been sent back to Germany by the Wehrmacht for slave labour. "Liberated Soviet girls quite often complain that our soldiers rape them," he noted. "One girl said to me in tears: 'He was an old man, older than my father'." http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,707835,00.html

[foxtrot023]

Gentlemen, while it is essentially none of my business, this discussion would benefit greatly from a moderation in tone. Fortiter in re, suaviter in modo !


Well said!

On the topic here are some sources on the raping of german civilians-

First of all just to mention that raping was not just commintted on German women, but also rumanian, hungarian and yugoslavian populations suffered. As mentioned above a source is Djilas, Conversations with Stalin, p.82, mentions 121 rapes with 111 cases resulting also in the murder of the women raped. There were not many cases, but this was Yugoslavia, an ally, and in a small part of their territory.

Another source is Feis, Churchill Rooselvelt Stalin, p. 635 were Stalin taked about the plans for murdering of 50,000 officers. While not rapes cases, it does show a certain pattern. The most damming cases can be found in Documents on the Expulsion of the Germans from Eastern Central Europe, pp.48-68 which compiles testimonies of raping, including dragging women into barracks to be used by whole formations. Other sources are Jahn, Pommersche Passion, p.113 and OKH Gen St D H Op Abt IV, Fremde Heere Ost, Jan. 1945

Granted, these sources touch mainly the Eastern parts of Germany, and not Berlin, ut they do represent a damming picture on the behaviour of Soviet troops outside the USSR. Even more ironic there are testimonies of polish slave workers protecting german civilians (those same civilians that treated them like slaves) against depredations from soviet soldiers. I do have to mention that sources like Jahn also put testimonies of whole formations of soviet soldiers that behaved quite correctly.

The main point however, is that while we can infer from the testimonies that many rapes did occur, there is not way to prove an actual number. At the moment we have guestimates. Personally I think many rapes, murders and other atrocities happened, but an exact number can´t be proven given the resources available (which is I guess the point that Lokos is trying to state).

[Weasel]

Very interesting history! Like in Thueringen, everything was taken away from the family anyway. Well glad your family doesn't want thew house back lol :)

My father was too busy to protect the car - it´s Poland. rofl

Just a bad joke, no offense to our polish neighbours. :hug:

[TR1]

read the book.
nothing incredibly noteworthy.

That woman should be happy the RKKA did not emulate routine German practices on the Eastern Front...or she would never have finished her diary.

[Weasel]

read the book.
nothing incredibly noteworthy.

That woman should be happy the RKKA did not emulate routine German practices on the Eastern Front...or she would never have finished her diary.

You fail...............

[TR1]

You fail...............
? care to elaborate?

[Weasel]

You are justifying one evil by another one. The Eastern front hast nothing to do with what happened to women in Germany at the end of the war.

[TR1]

You are justifying one evil by another one. The Eastern front hast nothing to do with what happened to women in Germany at the end of the war..

ummmm.
yes it does.
are you implying that the horros that the Germans unleashed in the East had no effect upon the behaivior of the Red Army in Germany?

[Weasel]

.

ummmm.
yes it does.
are you implying that the horros that the Germans unleashed in the East had no effect upon the behaivior of the Red Army in Germany?

Are you implying that it was justified to let women pay for what their men did in the east?

[Kilgor]

.

ummmm.
yes it does.
are you implying that the horros that the Germans unleashed in the East had no effect upon the behaivior of the Red Army in Germany?

Yes the germans were vicious and depraved
Yes, the soviets did the hard work of gutting the germans.

But that in no way absolves the red army of attrocities carried out against germany civilians.

It just ads weight to the arguement the soviets were not the good guys & eastern europe exchanged one dictator for another.

[GodlessAmerica!]

The reason why germans behave calmly last 60 years is pacific slavic gene pool. p-)

[Thor]

What makes me sick is baseless accusations and smear . Over 4,000 soldiers where executed for crimes during that period. They had their sh*t together.

E.g. the infamous period around january-february 1945 after which drastic measures were taken to restore order among the red troops.



Of course let's believe every idiot with a pen who lives in the West, because he lives in "free and democratic" society. You know, West has a monopoly in truth.
As in free societies with free institutions that have their research internationally reviewed by peers in other free countries, then yes it's a monopoly called the scientific method.


Care to provide some details about this 'infamous period'? Which commanders lost control over which units, exactly?
Zhukov.


No answer? Little Thor once again fails to make his case? Oh noes! Not again! It happens to you in every thread where you offer your opinion. It's cause you don't know squat, Thor.
Well you see my little balkan boy, the measures taken (the standard 20 km evacuation perimeter, executions on the fly etc.) and the reasons behind them is in no way a challenged historical fact.


The reason why germans behave calmly last 60 years is pacific slavic gene pool. p-)
Probably aborted, in the cases were the victim survived.

[GazB]

My grandmother buried all kitchen knife outside in the garden because she feared to be slaughtered with these knifes by the russian troops. Sounds hilarious but the fear among the population (especially women) was huge.

Doesnt' sound funny at all. Even the german public knew what went on in the Eastern front... why would they expect any different treatment. Afterall German signed the geneva conventions but Stalin hadn't. German justifcation for their treatment of the Slavs works equally well for the Slavs treatment of the Germans... how could they be bound by a treaty they had not signed?

Equally while many in the former soviet union welcomed the germans as liberators from stalin... it was only later they realised their mistake.

[Lokos]

Zhukov.


So Zhukov lost command of his Front? Is that what you're asserting? 'Cause, you know, that was his command - Front level.

You stupid bastard, you just picked the only Soviet commander whose name you know, didn't you?


Well you see my little balkan boy, the measures taken (the standard 20 km evacuation perimeter, executions on the fly etc.) and the reasons behind them is in no way a challenged historical fact.


The standard... what? What? What are you dribbling out of your mouth now?

Little Thor still hasn't quite got the hang of this whole sourced information thing.

I love the fact that you keep spouting rubbish about independently reviewed research and the infallibility thereof (hahahaha...), and yet your own 'infallible' allegations are backed up by... what? What? What was that? The sound of silence?

Lokos

[digrar]

To all, the petty insults can stop, or you can keep it up and take the inevitable suspensions. I'm easy either way.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

.

ummmm.
yes it does.
are you implying that the horros that the Germans unleashed in the East had no effect upon the behaivior of the Red Army in Germany?

5 great aunts from Silesia of mine were raped and murdered by Soviet "heroes" as they advanced on Berlin. 3 escaped, but not before they were also raped, the youngest being 10 years old.

No excuse for that.

[Lokos]

The petty insults can stop

Soz, mate. The guy aggravates me. But I'll cut the crap.

Lokos

[CPL Trevoga]

5 great aunts from Silesia of mine were raped and murdered by Soviet "heroes" as they advanced on Berlin. 3 escaped, but not before they were also raped, the youngest being 10 years old.

No excuse for that.


That's a terrible story. My maternal grandpa grew up an orphan, his parents and all of his relative where murdered by Germans. There is a place in Belarus, a memorial to victims who were put in a barn and burned alive by Germans and it's one of hundreds.
http://www.pbase.com/gorbunov/hatyn That's just in Belorussia, there were more places like that in Ukraine and Russia.

Soviet people did not start the war, Nazis did. Nazis raped, killed and pillage in our land for years. Many Red Army soldiers had a real score to settle and had genuine hate for Germans and it is undeniable that rapes, murders did occur,
but to suggest that battle hardened, experienced troops fell apart, their commanders lost control and engaged in mass rapes of Germany is nothing more than Goebbels' propaganda.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

That's a terrible story. My maternal grandpa grew up an orphan, his parents and all of his relative where murdered by Germans. There is a place in Belarus, a memorial to victims who were put in a barn and burned alive by Germans and it's one of hundreds.
http://www.pbase.com/gorbunov/hatyn That's just in Belorussia, there were more places like that in Ukraine and Russia.

Soviet people did not start the war, Nazis did. Nazis raped, killed and pillage in our land for years. Many Red Army soldiers had a real score to settle and had genuine hate for Germans and it is undeniable that rapes, murders did occur,
but to suggest that battle hardened, experienced troops fell apart, their commanders lost control and engaged in mass rapes of Germany is nothing more than Goebbels' propaganda.

Based on the accounts I've read, the raping and murdering was often not conducted by "battle-hardened" troops seeking revenge for crimes they'd seen commited, but rather second and third line troops advancing behind the contact lines and "reaping the harvest". Very little was done by the Soviet leadership to stop it, that is probably the worst crime.

The rapes weren't propaganda, they happened.

Sure revenge was a factor. Drunken pillaging another.

The Germans were evil as well at times, most countries have examples in their history of horrible crimes commited.

The rape and pillage of East Prussia and Silesia however is as bad as it gets.

I harbor no hate for Russians or the Russian Army, but war or no war, there is no excuse. It's a disgrace.

[Kilgor]

That's a terrible story. My maternal grandpa grew up an orphan, his parents and all of his relative where murdered by Germans. There is a place in Belarus, a memorial to victims who were put in a barn and burned alive by Germans and it's one of hundreds.
http://www.pbase.com/gorbunov/hatyn That's just in Belorussia, there were more places like that in Ukraine and Russia.

Soviet people did not start the war, Nazis did. Nazis raped, killed and pillage in our land for years. Many Red Army soldiers had a real score to settle and had genuine hate for Germans and it is undeniable that rapes, murders did occur,
but to suggest that battle hardened, experienced troops fell apart, their commanders lost control and engaged in mass rapes of Germany is nothing more than Goebbels' propaganda.


No the soviet "people" did not start the war. Nor did the german citizens who had no control over Adolf. However the soviet leadership did share a large responsibility for "starting" ww2 with the division of the baltic states and the joint invasion of poland. (as it has been discussed many times before here).

No one suggesting the commanders lost control. They simply didnt care.
The roaming packs could have been put back on the leash sooner. These were men who grew up under stalinism and served in a army of summary execution, the lack of control was simple by deliberate neglect.

[Kilgor]

Based on the accounts I've read, the raping and murdering was often not conducted by "battle-hardened" troops seeking revenge for crimes they'd seen commited, but rather second and third line troops advancing behind the contact lines and "reaping the harvest". Very little was done by the Soviet leadership to stop it, that is probably the worst crime.

.

Beevor makes this point many times. Front line troops often behaved well, the hated rear rats did most of the looting and raping.

One of the many baseless outcries against him is that he labels all soviet troops rapists which is not the case.

[Mamont]

the lack of control was simple by deliberate neglect.
Please, present the composition of red army from platoon to division with responcibilities of members and point where exactly "lack of control" might have occured. Then bring out factual data from the SU side stating deliberate neglection and results that follow.

[CPL Trevoga]

Based on the accounts I've read, the raping and murdering was often not conducted by "battle-hardened" troops seeking revenge for crimes they'd seen commited, but rather second and third line troops advancing behind the contact lines and "reaping the harvest". Very little was done by the Soviet leadership to stop it, that is probably the worst crime.

The rapes weren't propaganda, they happened.

Sure revenge was a factor. Drunken pillaging another.

The Germans were evil as well at times, most countries have examples in their history of horrible crimes commited.

The rape and pillage of East Prussia and Silesia however is as bad as it gets.

I harbor no hate for Russians or the Russian Army, but war or no war, there is no excuse. It's a disgrace.

I harbor no hate towards Germans. It really hard for me to phantom that our grandfathers were slaughtering each other like animals. I know it happened, but I really can't believe it. War was a disaster for both sides, that took the best people.

[GodlessAmerica!]

I had been ashamed of Russian soldiers actions too, before I've learnt from my grandparents about actions of Germans during invasion. Now I'm not! I would revenge too!

[Breakfast in Vegas]

I had been ashamed of Russian soldiers actions too, before I've learnt from my grandparents about actions of Germans during invasion. Now I'm not! I would revenge too!

You'd rape and kill women? дурак.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

I harbor no hate towards Germans. It really hard for me to phantom that our grandfathers were slaughtering each other like animals. I know it happened, but I really can't believe it. War was a disaster for both sides, that took the best people.

Yeah... I have 4 grandfathers (my and wife's side).. 2 Germans who both fought on the Russian front and 1 died, 1 survived and 2 Americans who both fought in Europe... one in WW1 and one in WW2, both survived.

Considering that I now have relatives scattered througout Europe (Ireland, Sweden, Norway, Germany) plus my American heritage and my business contacts and dear friends in Russia, the whole thing seems impossibly stupid. On an individual level though, they all fought for their country and their families... which makes perfect sense to me.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Please, present the composition of red army from platoon to division with responcibilities of members and point where exactly "lack of control" might have occured. Then bring out factual data from the SU side stating deliberate neglection and results that follow.

Officers and NCOs are always responsible for their troops. It's the army. Jeez. The NKVD and the army didn't care enough to stop it They didn't even try. Fog of war isn't an excuse for everything.

[GodlessAmerica!]

You'd rape and kill women? дурак.

I hope this horror will stay in hearts of your people for long time and you will never dare to come to our land again!

[Breakfast in Vegas]

I hope this horror will stay in hearts of your people for long time and you will never dare to come to our land again!

I'll be in Moscow next Tuesday and drink copious amounts of vodka and eat ikra with my Russian friends.

Trust me, most Germans know what their country did in WW2 and it was horrible. None of that is an excuse for war crimes commited by any nation, including the Russians.

I'm American by birth and war crimes commited by our troops are equally inexcusable.

[CPL Trevoga]

I had been ashamed of Russian soldiers actions too, before I've learnt from my grandparents about actions of Germans during invasion. Now I'm not! I would revenge too!

I don't think you fully understand f*ckupness that happened during the War, otherwise you wouldn't say dumbsh*t like that. Maybe, just maybe, you need to shut the f*ckup.


Yeah... I have 4 grandfathers (my and wife's side).. 2 Germans who both fought on the Russian front and 1 died, 1 survived and 2 Americans who both fought in Europe... one in WW1 and one in WW2, both survived.

Considering that I now have relatives scattered througout Europe (Ireland, Sweden, Norway, Germany) plus my American heritage and my business contacts and dear friends in Russia, the whole thing seems impossibly stupid. On an individual level though, they all fought for their country and their families... which makes perfect sense to me.

My grand grandfather fought in WWI on Eastern front and got wounded in 1915. I still have a copy of his hospital discharge papers. His son (brother of my gradmother) died in 43 or 44 on Eastern front.

[GodlessAmerica!]

I don't think you fully understand f*ckupness that happened during the War, otherwise you wouldn't say dumbsh*t like that. Maybe, just maybe, you need to shut the f*ckup.

Did I say something wrong?

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Did I say something wrong?

Yeah, you said raping and killing women in the name of revenge is OK.

[GodlessAmerica!]

Trust me, most Germans know what their country did in WW2 and it was horrible. None of that is an excuse for war crimes commited by any nation, including the Russians.

I know that its inexcusable, but I would revenge!

[Mamont]

Officers and NCOs are always responsible for their troops. It's the army. Jeez. The NKVD and the army didn't care enough to stop it They didn't even try. Fog of war isn't an excuse for everything.
Did you not understand the question? Or simply like to show your ignorance?

[Breakfast in Vegas]

I know that its unexcusible, but I would revenge!

Well I hope that in "real life" you'd be disgusted and repulsed by such revenge.

Fighting for your country is entirely admirable. Commiting crimes against humanity is not. Women and children are not soldiers, politicians or armies.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Did you not understand the question? Or simply like to show your ignorance?

How would you explain what happened? Or do you not consider an army's leadership responsible for it's soldiers actions?

Or was the Soviet army an army of barbarians?

[GodlessAmerica!]

Well I hope that in "real life" you'd be disgusted and repulsed by such revenge.

Fighting for your country is entirely admirable. Commiting crimes against humanity is not. Women and children are not soldiers, politicians or armies.
I already told you why it was important to make entire population of Germany suffer! That such "Drang nach Osten" (with connivance of all Germans) will never happen again!

[Mamont]

How would you explain what happened? Oh, so now it happened?



Or do you not consider an army's leadership responsible for it's soldiers actions? ? I don't understand what are you trying to point here.
But if you knew the answer for question i asked you'd understand, that thing like "lack of control" and other stupid things said here could't had existed. Army is a giant beurocratic machine. Every day tons of documents are filed. So if such massive occurencies happened it would immediatly show. And that's the reason, that all wictims or "explorers" did'n even tryed to look through actual archives and based their stories exclusively on memories of eye-witnesses, anonimous doctors etc. Such things cannot be proven wrong or right as they are like spherical horses in a vacuum and pursue only one goal - to dip in dirt. On the other hand, there numerous statements from veterans, that anyone assaulted, robbed or in any other way harmed civilians was immediatly punished, sometimes by death. How many of such statements were brought before western audience?

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Oh, so now it happened?

? I don't understand what are you trying to point here.
But if you knew the answer for question i asked you'd understand, that thing like "lack of control" and other stupid things said here could't had existed. Army is a giant beurocratic machine. Every day tons of documents are filed. So if such massive occurencies happened it would immediatly show. And that's the reason, that all wictims or "explorers" did'n even tryed to look through actual archives and based their stories exclusively on memories of eye-witnesses, anonimous doctors etc. Such things cannot be proven wrong or right as they are like spherical horses in a vacuum and pursue only one goal - to dip in dirt. On the other hand, there numerous statements from veterans, that anyone assaulted, robbed or in any other way harmed civilians was immediatly punished, sometimes by death. How many of such statements were brought before western audience?

I've got 5 dead aunts raped and killed by Soviet soldiers. There are thousands others just like them. No, their "cases" did not show up in Soviet documents because they didn't care. Tool.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

I already told you why it was important to make entire population of Germany suffer! That such "Drang nach Osten" (with connivance of all Germans) will never happen again!

Germany suffered, they deservedly lost a war they started. But what is so difficult to understand about "raping women:bad"?

[GodlessAmerica!]

Germany suffered. What is so difficult to understand about "raping women:bad"?

Did I say raping woman is good?:|

[CPL Trevoga]

I hope this horror will stay in hearts of your people for long time and you will never dare to come to our land again!

I don't know what to say. I'm f*cking speachless. American education at it's best?

[Mamont]

I've got 5 dead aunts raped and killed by Soviet soldiers. There are thousands others just like them. No, their "cases" did not show up in Soviet documents because they didn't care. Tool.

Words. Nothing more.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Words. Nothing more.

No, 5 dead women ****head.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Did I say raping woman is good?:|

You strongly implied it that under the umbrella of revenge it is OK.

I have no problem with the Russians wanting revenge against any nation that invades them, but raping and murdering women is despicable. All you had to say to that topic was "I would revenge".

[Mamont]

No, 5 dead women ****head.

5 dead women? Over 20 millions dead sounds better? Again - words. Do not even try to stretch death of your relatives on the whole country. This is not rants section.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

5 dead women? Over 20 millions dead sounds better? Again - words. Do not even try to stretch death of your relatives on the whole country. This is not rants section.

I didn't try to relate the death of relatives to the death of Russians and Ukrainians.

My sole issue here is that raping and murdering women is wrong no matter what the situation. And all you can think of is "it was war" or "it was revenge" or "they did it first".

Have you no pride or sense of human decency?

[GodlessAmerica!]

You strongly implied it under the umbrella of revenge is OK.

I have no problem with the Russians wanting revenge against any nation that invades them, but raping and murdering women is despicable. All you had to say to that topic was "I would revenge".

You are not intersting person.:|

[Breakfast in Vegas]

You are not intersting person.:|

And you've got no moral code.

[Mamont]

I didn't try to relate the death of relatives to the death of Russians and Ukrainians.
Than stop bringing this issue as an overwhelming fact supporting mass-rapings by soviet soldiers. Raping is wrong, that's why it was punished by death, and executions were carried out publicly before the rest of the men. That's why Stavka published several orders that stated how german population must be treated.


Have you no pride or sense of human decency?
Rhetorical question.

[GodlessAmerica!]

And you've got no moral code.

Its not true.

[Hollis]

Nazi Germany reaped what they sowed. Evil is never justified, but they opened Pandora's box on evil. It is difficult to set by and condemn the Soviets for taking revenge on the German population for what the Nazis did, not the Wehrmacht but the SS.


"Why?", one might ask. That is what we are looking at.

Estimates range up to 100 Million people died in that war. If we are to condemn one group, why not look in to causation's of that war, what could have been done by others to prevent it, what all of humanity has not been able to do sense the beginning of time.... find roads to Peace.

Mankind has never been able to wage Peace effectively.

[Kilgor]

Please, present the composition of red army from platoon to division with responcibilities of members and point where exactly "lack of control" might have occured. Then bring out factual data from the SU side stating deliberate neglection and results that follow.

go back and read the quote from stalin when challenged about the mass rapes. Apathy was all the way from the top.


Than stop bringing this issue as an overwhelming fact supporting mass-rapings by soviet soldiers. Raping is wrong, that's why it was punished by death, and executions were carried out publicly before the rest of the men. That's why Stavka published several orders that stated how german population must be treated.

Orders to stop the rapes and looting where issued far too late and only after troops were being infected with VD and it was turning into a public relations disaster for the communist "cause". They hardly stopped it because of any moral reasons.


Than stop bringing this issue as an overwhelming fact supporting mass-rapings by soviet soldiers.

It is a simple fact, get over it.

Plenty of Soviet and Other Russian sources can testify to it.

[stonecutter]

Considering that I now have relatives scattered througout Europe (Ireland, Sweden, Norway, Germany) plus my American heritage and my business contacts and dear friends in Russia, the whole thing seems impossibly stupid. On an individual level though, they all fought for their country and their families... which makes perfect sense to me.

Yup. Makes one realize just how short-sighted and dangerous hyper nationalism and patriotism can be sometimes. I think this is why after the world wars, patriotism levels in Europe declined drastically.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

The strong defense of the USSR is literally amazing.

Put simply by the time WW2 started Stalin had more people in forced labor camps then the Nazi's ever did yet it's the Nazis that are seem as the bad guys.

Just remember it's the victors that write history.

[GazB]

I have no problem with the Russians wanting revenge against any nation that invades them, but raping and murdering women is despicable. All you had to say to that topic was "I would revenge".


You think the fire bombing of dresden spared the women and children? You think the firebombing of Japan spared the women and children.
You think the moral code of a man that has just fought an enemy back to his enemies door and seen the things that enemy has done to his own people has the same moral code as one in the 21st century sitting in front of a computer screen.
Soldiers are trained to kill. After doing that for some time why should it matter who you kill as long as they are on the side of the enemy?
I am sure as the Soviet soldiers moved from the dirt tracks and little ramshackle huts of Russia through the paved streets and farmland of Europe, shelled though the were that this war might not really have anything to do at all with what it fair and more to do with power. The power of the gun and bullet, tank and aircraft. The germans justified rape and murder in the east by considering the slavic people subhuman. Why shouldn't those slavic people also have a low opinion of the germans and those that helped them do what they did to the Soviet Union?

Lots of people suffered. Lots of people did very bad things. Get over it. And suggesting that the Soviets got off with anything is funny... even today the west demonises Russia yet Germany is somehow let off with what they did because they are on our side now.. back in the civilised western fold again...

[turska]

Some people in this thread... wow.

[Doublethinker]

Such threads serve no purpose other than to provoke hatred.

[Hollis]

Such threads serve no purpose other than to provoke hatred.


A sad but good point. A good book, "Johnny got his Gun". There are often people who think war can be avoided with a reasonable debate and that both parties are equally guilty of starting the conflict.

That could happen, but at other times it only takes one nation to start the war.

As this thread is demonstrating, sometimes the seeds of the next war is planted in the hate that grows from the previous war. There has been a lot of papers written on the causation's of WWII. Many feels that the way WWI was ended was a key factor.

That is one of the reason the Allies went to great lengths to help stabilize Japan and German after WWII.

We need to remember WAR in itself creates the seeds of the next war, the reason to keep current war going and a natural rise of inhumane acts inflicted on one person by another.

Maybe Humankind will never be free from war, because of our basic nature.

[GodlessAmerica!]

I have no problem with the Russians wanting revenge against any nation that invades them, but raping and murdering women is despicable. All you had to say to that topic was "I would revenge".

OK but how did you expect russians wreak vengeance on germans? Trample down their flower beds? Defecate in their houses?

[eskachig]

go back and read the quote from stalin when challenged about the mass rapes. Apathy was all the way from the top.I've seen that quote before, but I've never seen a source for it. Where did it come from? Who reported it?


Orders to stop the rapes and looting where issued far too late and only after troops were being infected with VD and it was turning into a public relations disaster for the communist "cause". They hardly stopped it because of any moral reasons.The Soviet Union propaganda was very international at the time, and it was hoped that Germany would be brought into the Communist fold. This is why directives were issued for proper treatment of civilians and who so many soldiers were punished and executed for violence and excessive looting. Even during the most bitter months of the war there was a clear disctinction in the language. The RKKA soldier was fighting "Fascists", "Nazis", and "Hitlerites", not Germans. German civilians, especially German proletariat were supposed to be part of the coming world revolution. Guidelines for treatment of civilians were drawn up and distributed before the RKKA crossed into Germany. That said, much brutality still took place.


It is a simple fact, get over it.
Plenty of Soviet and Other Russian sources can testify to it.The scale of atrocities are clearly disputed, and you citing the sources would really help. This thread has been almost without any actual scholarship which is making things worse. At he same time, I'm clearly being a hypocrite here.

[eskachig]

OK but how did you expect russians wreak vengeance on germans? Trample down their flower beds? Defecate in their houses?Christ you're dense. Germans were awful in our country, they behaved more like beasts than men. It would've been nice if we didn't sink to their level. And no, massive revenge doesn't ensure future peace believe it or not.

[Hollis]

Christ you're dense. Germans were awful in our country, they behaved more like beasts than men. It would've been nice if we didn't sink to their level. And no, massive revenge doesn't ensure future peace believe it or not.


I am not sure if you understood his post. Don't flame other people especially a 1/2 year later the post was made.

[Miles.]

The strong defense of the USSR is literally amazing.

Put simply by the time WW2 started Stalin had more people in forced labor camps then the Nazi's ever did yet it's the Nazis that are seem as the bad guys.

Just remember it's the victors that write history.

Thank you for the sanity.


This thread makes me want to jump off a ****in cliff.