Time Out London: Islamic UK is good for everyone!!

[kamaz]

this nutty drivel has to be read in order to be believed. Its pretty funny in its benevolent portrayals of Islam, whats not funny is that the article isnt a humour piece, and that the author is serious.

unbellievable, no wonder muhammad is #1 chosen name


http://www.timeout.com/london/features/2993.html

[Warlord]

nter-faith relations
In an Islamic London, Christians and Jews – with their allegiance to the Bible and the Talmud – would be protected as ‘peoples of the book’. Hindus and Sikhs manage to live alongside a large Muslim population in India, so why not here? Although England has a long tradition of religious bigotry against, for instance, Roman Catholics, it is reasonable to assume that under the guiding hand of Islam a civilised accommodation could be made among faith groups in London. This welcoming stance alrea dy exists in the capital in the form of the City Circle (see Yahya Birt interview), which encourages inter-faith dialogue and open discussion.

I can faithfully put my trust that my faith will be TOLERATED. There's a big difference between tolerate and acceptance. WTF.

[the39steps]

Thanks for the link Kamaz. That is the most shockingly biased load of rubbish I've ever read. So all Muslims are equal? So why are the Sunni and Shia killing each other in such barbaric ways (electric drills, chlorine bombs)
Religious bigotry against Roman Catholics hasn't been present in the UK for....how many centuries now? What an odd thing to bring up.

Food...hooray! I don't know about you, but being told EXACTLY what to eat and WHEN to eat.....thats a vote winner right there. And we would benefit "philosophically" from it to. Nice.

Education....everyone would be a winner. We would all be well educated and polite and responsible. So thats what decades of educational policy was missing.

I could say a thing about recycling regarding the recycling of artilliery shells as IEDs in Iraq, but that seems a low blow.

If its such a good and wonderful and great religion, why are muslims killing muslims in Iraq. And killing everyone else in London, New York, Indonesia, Turkey, and killing in the name of god while they do it. Have I missed a memo?

[muttbutt]

I thought a first he was using satire....then I realized he wasn't:|.......

[CPL Trevoga]

I think the article is well written. I like it. Islam can bring great success to London and England. Look at the paradise-like places like Yemen, Sudan, Saudi Arabia. Only blind man can't see the benefits.

[Loki77]

this nutty drivel has to be read in order to be believed. Its pretty funny in its benevolent portrayals of Islam, whats not funny is that the article isnt a humour piece, and that the author is serious.

unbellievable, no wonder muhammad is #1 chosen name


http://www.timeout.com/london/features/2993.html
...hey, Kamaz.. i'm just wondering. ...How much do you know about UK?

[kamaz]

...hey, Kamaz.. i'm just wondering. ...How much do you know about UK?




what kind of a question is that? history wise, culture wise? I've been to UK a few times, know the general history, etc.. why do you ask.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

You guys don't get it.
In Britain we give stupid people enough rope to hang themselves with.
This Time Out article is a classic example.

[Heinemann]

Come on guys Islams alright, you know its all peaceful and stuff p-)

[martinexsquaddie]

classic example stupid person rope hung.
while looks like has something to offer at first glance
lets look at the downsides
no beer not even American beer (although being forbidden to drink American beer wouldn't actually be a hardship:))
minority rights forget them in practice
women well your stuffed
kite flyers bad news i'm afraid
no masters no gods **** em

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Come on guys Islams alright, you know its all peaceful and stuff p-)


Every religion has or has had it's fair share of nutcases, extremists and homicidal maniacs. Christianity is no exception.

[Calanen]

Every religion has or has had it's fair share of nutcases, extremists and homicidal maniacs. Christianity is no exception.

Yeah but Christianity's sins such as they were mostly were during the 12 and 1300s. Today, the major religion for violence worldwide is, but one. And no PC moral relativism gets around that fact.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Yeah but Christianity's sins such as they were mostly were during the 12 and 1300s. Today, the major religion for violence worldwide is, but one. And no PC moral relativism gets around that fact.

You slept through Bosnia and Kosovo then?

[Palmach]

You slept through Bosnia and Kosovo then?

That conflict was first and foremost an ethnic or, as "The Clash of Civilizations", would put it a cultural one. Religion, for the most part, served to further re-inforce cultural identity of each side. This can hardly be compared to the Crusades or the Wars of Reformation.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

That conflict was first and foremost an ethnic or, as "The Clash of Civilizations", would put it a cultural one. Religion, for the most part, served to further re-inforce cultural identity of each side. This can hardly be compared to the Crusades or the Wars of Reformation.

I doubt very much that such fine academic distinctions meant' much to those on the receiving end. And as you say religion played a role.

[kamaz]

You slept through Bosnia and Kosovo then?


Bosnia+Kosovo = regional conflict
Tamils = regional conflict
Colombia = regional conflict

Islamist ideology of spreading war and conversion = world wide conflict, on almost every continent.

you comparisons are not even close.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Bosnia+Kosovo = regional conflict
Tamils = regional conflict
Colombia = regional conflict

Islamist ideology of spreading war and conversion = world wide conflict, on almost every continent.

you comparisons are not even close.

So you think regional conflicts cannot be religously based? That's just weird.

[Palmach]

I doubt very much that such fine academic distinctions meant' much to those on the receiving end.

Surely not. At the same time we are not discussing the effects of genocide as such but rather a supposed pre-desposition to violence of various religious doctrines.


And as you say religion played a role.

Well, yes it did. But it was no the cause of the conflict nore the driving ideology of the parties involved. Various language and dress style also played a role, are we to blame the garment industry?

I would submit that it is not a religion in and off itself that has a potential pre-desposition for violence or aggression, but a "culture" as Huntington defines it.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I would submit that it is not a religion in and off itself that has a potential pre-desposition for violence or aggression, but a "culture" as Huntington defines it.

Well on that point I would agree with you.

[kamaz]

So you think regional conflicts cannot be religously based? That's just weird.

offcourse they can, but there is not concept of 'jihad' and the 'ummah' beyound islam. there is not worldwide fundamentalist movements beyond islam.

its unique in its range of imperialism, totalitarianism and subjugation of other faiths. im not sure why its so hard for people to understand this.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

offcourse they can, but there is not concept of 'jihad' and the 'ummah' beyound islam. there is not worldwide fundamentalist movements beyond islam.

its unique in its range of imperialism, totalitarianism and subjugation of other faiths. im not sure why its so hard for people to understand this.

No it's not unique. A minority of them are into it now that's all. Christians have done plenty of that stuff.

And trust me there's not much to distinguish between Hindu fanatics from Muslim fanatics. They are equally murderous.

[kamaz]

No it's not unique. A minority of them are into it now that's all. Christians have done plenty of that stuff.

And trust me there's not much to distinguish between Hindu fanatics from Muslim fanatics. They are equally murderous.

dude, let me ask you a simple question. how many christian or hindu suicide bombers have you seen? how many religions have a world wide jihad thats approved by the highest clerical authorities?

how many religions classify the world into 2 halves, and place the 'infidel' half for conquest and subjugation?

you are desperately trying to morally equalize things, but it doesnt work. sorry.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

dude, let me ask you a simple question. how many christian or hindu suicide bombers have you seen? how many religions have a world wide jihad thats approved by the highest clerical authorities?

how many religions classify the world into 2 halves, and place the 'infidel' half for conquest and subjugation?

you are desperately trying to morally equalize things, but it doesnt work. sorry.

Look up the Tamil Tigers some time

Dude:roll:

Oh and Hindu fanatics would put the Nazis to shame with their ideas about who is and who is not 'worthy'

You are desperately trying to rationalize your islamophobia.

[kamaz]

Look up the Tamil Tigers some time

Dude:roll:

Oh and Hindu fanatics would put the Nazis to shame with their ideas about who is and who is not 'worthy'

You are desperately trying to rationalize your islamophobia.

islamophobia lol. Tamil conflict is Jaffna-centered, not an international califat seeking movement that defines Islamism. There is no concept of the ummah amongst other beliefs. Maybe you should read some of El Banna's writing to see it work in today's jihadist methodology. You are a Brit right? What do you think of the 7/7 bombers who were bred on this ideology, within UK.

I dont see too many Hindus or Buddhists or Jews doing these sorts of things. I wonder why that is.

ps - there is a definite potential for extremism within any faith, this is obvious. whats also obvious that today, right now, there is no parallel to Islamic fundamentalism amongst other major religions. none whatsoever.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

islamophobia lol. Tamil conflict is Jaffna-centered, not an international califat seeking movement that defines Islamism. There is no concept of the ummah amongst other beliefs. Maybe you should read some of El Banna's writing to see it work in today's jihadist methodology. You are a Brit right? What do you think of the 7/7 bombers who were bred on this ideology, within UK.

I dont see too many Hindus or Buddhists or Jews doing these sorts of things. I wonder why that is.

ps - there is a definite potential for extremism within any faith, this is obvious. whats also obvious that today, right now, there is no parallel to Islamic fundamentalism amongst other major religions. none whatsoever.

Yeah I'm a Brit so what?
7/7 bombers - I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire. The same goes for the IRA or whatever.
You're talking about fringe beliefs in Islam as though they are somehow representative of the whole.
These things go in cycles it's not that long ago that the British Empire was using Christianity as a similar justification for world domination. In fact the original Deobandi muslim fundamentalist ideology grew out of the actions of the British during the Indian mutiny.
And if you think murderous Hindu fanatics are just limited to Jaffna try visiting Mumbai sometime.

[kamaz]

Yeah I'm a Brit so what?
7/7 bombers - I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire. The same goes for the IRA or whatever.
You're talking about fringe beliefs in Islam as though they are somehow representative of the whole.
These things go in cycles it's not that long ago that the British Empire was using Christianity as a similar justification for world domination. In fact the original Deobandi muslim fundamentalist ideology grew out of the actions of the British during the Indian mutiny.
And if you think murderous Hindu fanatics are just limited to Jaffna try visiting Mumbai sometime.

dude, honestly, 60% of Muslims polled in UK believe that Muslims didnt commit the 7/7 terror. This isnt some 'fringe', miniscule cult. This ideology has a huge, HUGE following within the Muslim community.

Dont make the mistake of changing my words to mean the entire Muslim population, thats not what Im saying, and you know it. What you are doing is watershedding specifics with a generalized brush, 'oh, others do it too, so its not so bad', which is complete and utter non sense.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

dude, honestly, 60% of Muslims polled in UK believe that Muslims didnt commit the 7/7 terror. This isnt some 'fringe', miniscule cult. This ideology has a huge, HUGE following within the Muslim community.

Dont make the mistake of changing my words to mean the entire Muslim population, thats not what Im saying, and you know it. What you are doing is watershedding specifics with a generalized brush, 'oh, others do it too, so its not so bad', which is complete and utter non sense.

I don't make the mistake of believing opinion polls :)

[kamaz]

I don't make the mistake of believing opinion polls :)

ok, a series of polls by different orgs all point to same conclusions

25% is not some 'fringe' cult, but a huge proportion btw.

http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1145782006

7/7 bombings 'justified' say a quarter of British Muslims
ALMOST a quarter of British Muslims say the 7/7 bombings can be justified because of the Government's support for the war on terror, according to an opinion poll.

And nearly half of those polled, or 45 per cent, believe the 9/11 attacks on New York were a conspiracy between the United States and Israel. The survey, for a Channel 4 Dispatches documentary to be screened tonight, found Muslims under 24 were twice as likely to justify the 7/7 attacks as those aged over 45. It found 24 per cent either agreed or tended to agree that the 7/7 bombings were justified, although 48 per cent said they "strongly disagreed".

A third of those questioned said they would rather live under Sharia law in the UK than British law.

The survey also reveals concerns among Muslims about Britain's moral standards, with 40 per cent saying it is a country of bad moral behaviour.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

ok, a series of polls by different orgs all point to same conclusions

25% is not some 'fringe' cult, but a huge proportion btw.

http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1145782006

7/7 bombings 'justified' say a quarter of British Muslims
ALMOST a quarter of British Muslims say the 7/7 bombings can be justified because of the Government's support for the war on terror, according to an opinion poll.

And nearly half of those polled, or 45 per cent, believe the 9/11 attacks on New York were a conspiracy between the United States and Israel. The survey, for a Channel 4 Dispatches documentary to be screened tonight, found Muslims under 24 were twice as likely to justify the 7/7 attacks as those aged over 45. It found 24 per cent either agreed or tended to agree that the 7/7 bombings were justified, although 48 per cent said they "strongly disagreed".

A third of those questioned said they would rather live under Sharia law in the UK than British law.

The survey also reveals concerns among Muslims about Britain's moral standards, with 40 per cent saying it is a country of bad moral behaviour.

You're making a massive assumption that people in these polls are:
a) real people
b) actually saying what they think rather than trying to wind people up (and obviously succeeding if the foaming at the mouth hysteria on sites liike this is anything to go by)

Polls can be designed to give whatever answers suit your prejudices.

[Mu-Meson]

forgive the interrupt.
ex STAB, when someone points to multiple polls carried out by numerous organisations all over the world that show that a large minority/small majority of muslims in many countries in the west would like to live under sharia and/or don't believe muslims did 7/7 or 9/11 and/or can justify terrorism, then you accuse them of islamophobia? Are you blind? Then you say that all these polls are rigged? (it must be the joos, right?) What possible reason could a jihadist have for pretending to be a secular liberal in a poll? You denial of what is happening to Europe is saddening. Like a frog put in a pot of water that is slowly heated to boiling, you won't see it until your cooked!

[kamaz]

You're making a massive assumption that people in these polls are:
a) real people
b) actually saying what they think rather than trying to wind people up (and obviously succeeding if the foaming at the mouth hysteria on sites liike this is anything to go by)

Polls can be designed to give whatever answers suit your prejudices.

dude cmon, this is nothing more than a lazy excuse. These polls have been conducted by an array of outlets on both sides of the political fence. You are disgenously trying to discredit something that doesnt fit your world view or opinion.

[kamaz]

Like a frog put in a pot of water that is slowly heated to boiling, you won't see it until your cooked!



this is a very valid analogy.

[arwyn_davies]

You denial of what is happening to Europe...
What is happening to Europe? *confussed UK resident*

[Mu-Meson]

What is happening to Europe..? Is that a rhetorical question? Step 1: Read some books! Mark Steyns America Alone is a good start. Step 2: Watch the news. Majority of UK Muslims don't believe muslims did 7/7. Teachers in UK not teaching Holocaust or Crusades. French unidentified 'youths' riot every weekend. German judge cites Sharia Law in denying a divorce to a battered wife. Dutch lawmakers needing police security from death threats. Cities in Sweden, France, Denmark and other places becoming no go zones for police (ie the instruments of public safety of the nation!) Step 3: Multiculturalism+Political Correctness / Rapid Muslim population growth * Below Replacement European birthrates = the FUTURE.
You can call me alarmist and an islamophobe, i don't care. I would rather be able to admit in 50 years that I was totally wrong about all this, than have to say "I told you so."
Besides, as a former UK resident and a British Citizen myself, I have to ask, don't you see how Britain is changing, Arwyn? Is it an improvement? We can argue about whether it is getting better or worse, but the thing about demographics is that numbers, and statistics aren't a matter of interpretation. You just have to look at this in terms of lifetimes, not election cycles.

[phoebus]

Teachers in UK not teaching Holocaust or Crusades. French unidentified 'youths' riot every weekend. German judge cites Sharia Law in denying a divorce to a battered wife.

Any suggestion as of what specific sources could be addressed for those points?

Cheers

[Mu-Meson]

yeah phoebus, its called the net
Teachers stop teaching history: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=445979&in_page_id=1770&ito=newsnow

German judge endorses Sharia: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/03/22/europe/EU-GEN-Germany-Quran-Divorce.php

Burqas for all infidels in Denmark: http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2053

Dutch fighting back (balkanization?): http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1976

Goodbye "piggy banks" : http://www.spcm.org/Journal/spip.php?article7249 (that website isn't a newspaper coz I couldn't find any unexpired webpages on this)

You want more?

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

In an Islamic London, Christians and Jews – with their allegiance to the Bible and the Talmud – would be protected as ‘peoples of the book’

had to take a break to laugh hysterically on that one

[Mu-Meson]

In an Islamic London, Christians and Jews – with their allegiance to the Bible and the Talmud – would be protected as ‘peoples of the book’


As long as the accept dhimmitude and pay the infidel 'jizya' tax, or else they are 'zionists' and 'crusaders' and thus subject to conversion or death.

[krasnayaarmiya]

Thanks for the link Kamaz. That is the most shockingly biased load of rubbish I've ever read. So all Muslims are equal? So why are the Sunni and Shia killing each other in such barbaric ways (electric drills, chlorine bombs)
Religious bigotry against Roman Catholics hasn't been present in the UK for....how many centuries now? What an odd thing to bring up.

Food...hooray! I don't know about you, but being told EXACTLY what to eat and WHEN to eat.....thats a vote winner right there. And we would benefit "philosophically" from it to. Nice.

Education....everyone would be a winner. We would all be well educated and polite and responsible. So thats what decades of educational policy was missing.

I could say a thing about recycling regarding the recycling of artilliery shells as IEDs in Iraq, but that seems a low blow.

If its such a good and wonderful and great religion, why are muslims killing muslims in Iraq. And killing everyone else in London, New York, Indonesia, Turkey, and killing in the name of god while they do it. Have I missed a memo?
As a native of London, I disagree with this article, but your point about bigotry against Catholics is mistaken. Northern Ireland is part of the UK, and the Catholics there (read: Irish) have been dealing with bigotry from the Norman conquest till NOW. The Troubles that began in 1969 were squashed from within and from without (by the British Army) in the 90's. This is a current phenomenon, not "centuries ago".

[krasnayaarmiya]

Yeah but Christianity's sins such as they were mostly were during the 12 and 1300s. Today, the major religion for violence worldwide is, but one. And no PC moral relativism gets around that fact.

That article is crap because it is so naive in its view of Islamic harmony (Turkish-Arab, Arab-Iranian, Sunni-Shiite, Kurdish-everyone conflicts). But I think he is right about one thing. Western Europe is seeing that practicing Muslims outnumber practicing Christians and Jews because, well, the Western European Christians have gotten fed up with their faith (go to Italy, Spain, Ireland, France, or England and observe how many non-geriatrics attend church) and the Christians killed all of the Jews (hyperbole, but barely). Aah, the Semitic religions...Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have alot in common. Judaism is a religion of one people, a tribal religion, not universal. Christianity and Islam proselytize, as they both subscribe to the universal redemption of all mankind. They both try to convert people, through persuasion and/or coercion. I believe that many Christians and Muslims hate that about the others' respective religion, but it's really just projection. They are in competition.
Chrisitians were converting though force up to the 20th Century; they didn't stop in the 14th Century, otherwise the Western Hemisphere would be animistic in creed.
I like the PC "moral relativism" comment. The irony is that moral absolutism is the hallmark of Judeo-Islamo-Christian tenets, in that there really is "good" and "evil". They all agree on that.
Please pull out the right-wing billy club of the "politically correct" label on this. By the way, "politically correct" or PC was invented by liberals forty years ago, but only conservatives EVER widely this term in the last generation. BUT THIS ARTICLE is nauseatingly PC, anywayz, I'll give you that. But hey, it's Time-Out London, yall, don't get hyphy. It's just an entertainment listing, showing showtimes for local theater and club nights. It's like People magazine expounding on matters of faith. It would be mildly alarming, but much sillier than anything else. Londoners like drink, ***, money, and violence too much to be religious.

[krasnayaarmiya]

I think the article is well written. I like it. Islam can bring great success to London and England. Look at the paradise-like places like Yemen, Sudan, Saudi Arabia. Only blind man can't see the benefits.

By that logic, look at the wonders of Christianity in Russia and Brazil, two of the murder capitals of the world. For that matter look at all the top murder capitals. They are all within the Corpus Christianum. Just trying to fair...

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

By that logic, look at the wonders of Christianity in Russia and Brazil, two of the murder capitals of the world. For that matter look at all the top murder capitals. They are all within the Corpus Christianum. Just trying to fair...

hhhhmmmm i guess genocide isnt classified as "murder"

[krasnayaarmiya]

hhhhmmmm i guess genocide isnt classified as "murder"

I assume you're talking about Darfur on this fine Friday night.

Genocide?

Read: Poland

Read: United States (It's not controversial that the US was a site of great genocide; if you're going to use the old "we won it fair and square" argument, then all discussions of right and wrong are moot)

[a_very_ex_STAB]

dude cmon, this is nothing more than a lazy excuse. These polls have been conducted by an array of outlets on both sides of the political fence. You are disgenously trying to discredit something that doesnt fit your world view or opinion.

Interestingly I read an American newspaper report yesterday which details eerily similar findings from a poll of American muslims. Smells like a set up to me.

Why don't you guys come out with it and be honest. You'd like to round 'em up into camps and gas 'em in the showers.

You know you want to :roll:

[Calanen]

You're making a massive assumption that people in these polls are:
a) real people
b) actually saying what they think rather than trying to wind people up (and obviously succeeding if the foaming at the mouth hysteria on sites liike this is anything to go by)

Polls can be designed to give whatever answers suit your prejudices.

If the polls said everyone hated Israel, FOX News, O'Reilly, were against the Iraq war, and supported Islamic terrorists, you'd be bleating on about how accurate polls are. You just dont like this poll because it provides evidence that contradicts your own left wing worldview. Anything that supports it, including polls, gets a pass.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

If the polls said everyone hated Israel, FOX News, O'Reilly, were against the Iraq war, and supported Islamic terrorists, you'd be bleating on about how accurate polls are. You just dont like this poll because it provides evidence that contradicts your own left wing worldview. Anything that supports it, including polls, gets a pass.

Left wing?
LOL

Keep guessing.rofl

[Lt.Havoc]

Well, I dont care, fact is, the time where religons could co-exist peacfully together are over. We cant tolerate anykind of belive, that claims to be better then others and that says to kill people who dont belive in the same thing as you.

THe problem is, that there are always the odenary muslim, who just lives his life, goes to work and follows the pricipals of the modern democratic staes, so far soo godd. I have nothing against those people, they can live thier lifes, but what worries me, are the Islamist, fundametalist, the radicals.

These guys are growing and it seems that there are more and more radical islamist today that would like to bomb us to hell then talk. They hide behind thier religon and use it as a shield, and accuse the west of agression and breaking thier own laws, like that every person is equal, whatver religon they are. Think is, that has nothing to do with religon, then wehn you want to destroy a democratic state to install a Shira Law driven islam state, then you are a terrorist.

The west needs to stop the political corecness bs, then its getting ridicules more and more. In Islamic states, anti-cristanity comics and cartoons, yes even kids shows are made, as well as all this ati-western propaganda, and wehn a western cartoonist makes a atiric comic about islam, then they freak out and tell us how bad we are and how we could do such a thing.

FAct is, in parts of the world you get killed for beliving the wrong things or haveing the wrong religion. Crisitans are not better then Islamist, there are a lot of radical cristian groups in the USA who would love to install a ultra-right, neo-conservative cristian god state and that is just the same as what the Islamist want to do. Just image Cristian Taliban regime in the USA, I know, the comparison may be far fetched, but it would be similar.

Point is, wehn a Muslim comes in my country, then I expect him to follow the rules, like everybody does. I just dont want him to life in a sub-culture, where honor killings, wife beating and other things are tolerated and done. We have lots of problems in germany with immigrants from arabic speaking countries, then even the elder dosent speak german that much, so its hard to talk with them, ecpserically women and then there is the rule of the male too, who is above the female. There where and are still huge discussions if Muslim girls should be allowed to wear headscarf in school or not.

Of course, there are always the extreme exampels, there are also many muslims here who live with western standarts and who are more open and have no problems at all. But this sub-culture, that is realy seen, is frighting.

Ya know, some of those extreme radical islamists are putting down thier moderate brethren and call them traitors of the islamic faith and say that the west coruppted them and that they are no truly muslim, then there is only one faith and thats the Islam, all others need to be crushed.

How can we look away and close our eyes for whats going on? How can we tolerate all those things? All I say is, that things need to be more transparent and that anyone who comes here, no matter what faith or race, should adabt to out west democartic standarts and should not have a second, hidden life where they practise things that are against out laws. Wehn I wanted to life in a arabian country, where many muslims life, they want from me to convert to thier faith and life based on thier faith and rules, so why should those who come to us get a extra treatment?

I dont want any gas chambers and I´m not islamobobic (is that really a word, a real term in the sientific sense? I doubt it), all I say is, that we need to be more watchful, more alert and actually care what happends around us. The price for our freedom we have to pay, is to pay more attention and to ask questions, evne if these questions may be nasty.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

I assume you're talking about Darfur on this fine Friday night.

Genocide?

Read: Poland

Read: United States (It's not controversial that the US was a site of great genocide; if you're going to use the old "we won it fair and square" argument, then all discussions of right and wrong are moot)

US...what Iraq...theyre killing each other, and i say let em have it, theyll sort it out

Poland haha how about armenia...

[Viejo Golanchik]

In an Islamic London, Christians and Jews – with their allegiance to the Bible and the Talmud – would be protected as ‘peoples of the book’

had to take a break to laugh hysterically on that one

So do I...so, you people believers in Shiva...prepare and wet your beards...

This man have to be kidding. The place of the executions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

VG

[dangerclose]

Every religion has or has had it's fair share of nutcases, extremists and homicidal maniacs. Christianity is no exception.


Of course, there was The Crusades .... 900 YEARS AGO.

And one group wasn't following what their founder taught, the other one is.

[krasnayaarmiya]

If the polls said everyone hated Israel, FOX News, O'Reilly, were against the Iraq war, and supported Islamic terrorists, you'd be bleating on about how accurate polls are. You just dont like this poll because it provides evidence that contradicts your own left wing worldview. Anything that supports it, including polls, gets a pass.

Unsubstantiated claim.

[krasnayaarmiya]

Of course, there was The Crusades .... 900 YEARS AGO.

And one group wasn't following what their founder taught, the other one is.

Christian genocide against Jews: 61 years ago.

[IDF_TANKER]

Christian genocide against Jews: 61 years ago.

If you refer to Holocaust, it has nothing to do with Christianity, since Nazism as an ideology has nothing to do with Christianity. The contrary is true - Nazis tried to return to the pagan pre-Christian European sources(thus all the Nazi ceremonies with the torches etc). Christianity was considered by Nazis as something strange, brought from outside, originated in Judaism and the Christian priests were often persecuted by Nazis along with Jews and others.

[ThatHistoryDude]

If you refer to Holocaust, it has nothing to do with Christianity, since Nazism as an ideology has nothing to do with Christianity. The contrary is true - Nazis tried to return to the pagany pre-Christian European sources(thus all the Nazi ceremonies with the torches etc). Christianity was considered by Nazis as something strange, brought from outside, originated in Judaism and the Christian priests were often persecuted by Nazis along with Jews and others.

QFT...I am sick of people blaming christians for the holocaust it was done primarliy by craddle christians but it was done without the sanction of any christian leaders which is the primary difference between the holocaust and the crusades which were church sponsored or the jihads that are declared against non-belivers on a daily basis by islamic leaders. If you cant understand that simple difference maybe you should spend more time reading a book and less time on the interweb.

[dangerclose]

If you refer to Holocaust, it has nothing to do with Christianity, since Nazism as an ideology has nothing to do with Christianity. The contrary is true - Nazis tried to return to the pagan pre-Christian European sources(thus all the Nazi ceremonies with the torches etc). Christianity was considered by Nazis as something strange, brought from outside, originated in Judaism and the Christian priests were often persecuted by Nazis along with Jews and others.


Cornelia Johanna Arnalda ten Boom, generally known as Corrie ten Boom, (April 15, 1892 – April 15, 1983) was a Dutch Christian Holocaust survivor who helped many Jews escape the Nazis during World War II. Born in Haarlem, North Holland, ten Boom was declared a member of the Righteous Among the Nations by the State of Israel in December 1967.

[the39steps]

If Christianity was responsible for the Holocaust, why did other Christian countries (UK, Canada, USA etc) fight AGAINST Germany? Its a stupid thing to say without a shred of fact, and replies on an emotional response to carry it.
And its taking us off topic. Does anyone actually agree with that lousy article that started this thread. And if not, does anyone have any idea if the Journo responsible is just an idiot, or an idiot with an agenda?

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

Christian genocide against Jews: 61 years ago.

you really need to touch up on your national socialism knowledge...hitler and his cronies were atheists as were stalin and lenin...don't start on the Jewish situation either b/c they were attacked as a race not as a religion...dont try to bend the facts to substantiate your claims

[krasnayaarmiya]

If you refer to Holocaust, it has nothing to do with Christianity, since Nazism as an ideology has nothing to do with Christianity. The contrary is true - Nazis tried to return to the pagan pre-Christian European sources(thus all the Nazi ceremonies with the torches etc). Christianity was considered by Nazis as something strange, brought from outside, originated in Judaism and the Christian priests were often persecuted by Nazis along with Jews and others.

Mein Kampf refers importantly to Martin Luther's virulent anti-semitism, and his statements that led to very violent pogroms.

[krasnayaarmiya]

If Christianity was responsible for the Holocaust, why did other Christian countries (UK, Canada, USA etc) fight AGAINST Germany? Its a stupid thing to say without a shred of fact, and replies on an emotional response to carry it.
And its taking us off topic. Does anyone actually agree with that lousy article that started this thread. And if not, does anyone have any idea if the Journo responsible is just an idiot, or an idiot with an agenda?

He's an idiot writing for TIME-OUT LONDON, a really insubstantial entertainment listing guide.

[krasnayaarmiya]

QFT...I am sick of people blaming christians for the holocaust it was done primarliy by craddle christians but it was done without the sanction of any christian leaders which is the primary difference between the holocaust and the crusades which were church sponsored or the jihads that are declared against non-belivers on a daily basis by islamic leaders. If you cant understand that simple difference maybe you should spend more time reading a book and less time on the interweb.

What about the Pope, the most influential Christian leader of the time?

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

What about the Pope, the most influential Christian leader of the time?

no that mans name was Jesus Christ...only Catholics follow/consider the Pope to be important

[Calanen]

Christian genocide against Jews: 61 years ago.

Christian - how about, National Socialist. They killed Catholic nuns and priests too.

[ThatHistoryDude]

What about the Pope, the most influential Christian leader of the time?

Are you serious? Are you really that history backwards? Do you even speak english as a first language and understandably misconstrue what I was talking about or are you just being obtuse?

The pope did not support the holocaust....Supporting something means to give your consent to an action or even help in that action. The pope did neither. This is like saying that someone who witnessed an armed robbery across the street and didnt do anything to stop it was somehow involved in the crime.

Now it is worth noting that he did not decry the holocaust while it was going on and he also did nothing to stop it but then not many faced with that kind of evil and the possibility of personal harm would have the courage to stand up to the nazis so I wont condemn him for that.

Please for your own sake read a history book or any book at all and stop getting all your information from the internet.

[Calanen]

The Catholic Church also helped thousands of jews escape the Nazis, and a good number of nuns and priests were executed for doing so. They did not save everyone, how could they be expected to. It took Russia, the USA and Western Europe to stop the Nazis. The little Vatican state could not have done so. Openly defying the nazis just would have put a stop to the acts that they were clandestinely undertaking to get some jews out through the network of priests and nuns, with many jews being hidden in monasteries, convents, churches.

[dangerclose]

no that mans name was Jesus Christ...


Thank you.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Of course, there was The Crusades .... 900 YEARS AGO.

And one group wasn't following what their founder taught, the other one is.

I see you slept through the Holocaust, Bosnia and Kosovo then

:roll:

[xSlofoxx]

I know what this thread is about , and the angle from witch it is told.

Continue.

[shire19]

Of course, there was The Crusades .... 900 YEARS AGO.

And one group wasn't following what their founder taught, the other one is.

It's pretty popular nowadays to consider Prophet Muhammad as some kind of a warlord and a man who taught nothing more than violence. This however is false, just because he fought for his beliefs and existance doesn't mean he preached violence.

[kamaz]

listen, forget about all the historical intricacies, the nature of all these religions, tribal or not, it doesnt matter.

just look at today's news headlines. There is definitely trouble in Islam land, where the vast majority of muslim nations are set in stagnation, dictatorships, and scientific and economic drought. Add to that the treatment of non-muslims under muslim rule (historically) has been brutal.

The vast majority of terrorism committed today is by people who claim to be Muslims. Why is that? The religion needs a reformation, and instead the current wave is of Salafist fundamentalism, including Wahabi and Deobandi strains. Add to that, you have millions of Muslims who truly and deeply believe that Islam needs to rule the world, to establish the Dar al Islam.

this isnt some tiny minority. Sure they are a 'minority' within mainstream Islam, but a minority out of over a billion people is a huge, huge number.

[Hollis]

It's pretty popular nowadays to consider Prophet Muhammad as some kind of a warlord and a man who taught nothing more than violence. This however is false, just because he fought for his beliefs and existance doesn't mean he preached violence.


ripping a women apart is not violent, Did you miss reading the Hadeths. The Prophet Muhammad, never prophesied anything and murdered a lot of people.

OH yeah, how about the not so peaceful parts in the Qur'an.

[Hollis]

The Catholic Church also helped thousands of jews escape the Nazis, and a good number of nuns and priests were executed for doing so. They did not save everyone, how could they be expected to. It took Russia, the USA and Western Europe to stop the Nazis. The little Vatican state could not have done so. Openly defying the nazis just would have put a stop to the acts that they were clandestinely undertaking to get some jews out through the network of priests and nuns, with many jews being hidden in monasteries, convents, churches.


It was a very complicated time for survival. Also to also have done so, would have risked all the lives of other Catholics. I don't think there was much of a choice for the Church.

[Kilgor]

Christian genocide against Jews: 61 years ago.

Wow, the holocaust was motivated by religion and not racial hygene.

Looks like you learn something new every day !

[Lt. James Anderson]

I see you slept through the Holocaust, Bosnia and Kosovo then

:roll:

What happened in Bosnia? I slept through it ...


Casualties

The death toll after the war was originally estimated at around 200,000 (Muslims?) by the Bosnian government. They also recorded around 1,326,000 refugees and exiles.

Today, it is generally estimated that around 100,000 Bosnians and Herzegovinians - Bosniak, Serb and Croat - were killed in the war.

Research done by the International Criminal Tribunal in 2004 by Tibeau and Bijak determined a more precise number of 102,000 deaths and estimated the following breakdown: 55,261 were civilians and 47,360 were soldiers. Of the civilians: 16,700 were Serbs while 38,000 were Bosniaks and Croats. Of the soldiers, 14,000 were Serbs, 6,000 were Croats, and 28,000 were Bosniaks.[16]

16. ^ Nilsen, Av Kjell Arild; "Death toll in Bosnian war was 102,000"; Free Republic - Norwegian News Agency,

What happened in Kosovo? I slept through it too ...


When the war ended on June 11, 1999, it left Kosovo in chaos and Yugoslavia as a whole facing an unknown future.

The war inflicted many casualties. Already by March 1999, the combination of fighting and the targeting of civilians had left an estimated 1,500-2,000 civilians and combatants dead. [28] Final estimates of the casualties are still unavailable for either side.

[shire19]

ripping a women apart is not violent, Did you miss reading the Hadeths. The Prophet Muhammad, never prophesied anything and murdered a lot of people.

The Prophet spent the first 13 years of his "revelation" from God to preach his new beliefs while under constant prosecution from the tribes, any followers that he managed to convince were tortured or hanged.. The last 10 years before his death he started fighting for it.

Granted he was no saint and made decisions to have people murdered but thats just the reality of things back then, most of his actions were neccassary for his survival and the survival of Islam. His followers grew in the thousands and I'm sure it wasn't because he threatened their lives.



OH yeah, how about the not so peaceful parts in the Qur'an.

What about them? A few violent verses does not make the whole religion violent.. though others might not agree with your interpretations

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Wow, the holocaust was motivated by religion and not racial hygene.

Looks like you learn something new every day !

You seem to be very conveniently forgetting that the people who organised and carried out the holocaust were born and brought up in Christian countries in Europe and that the holocaust was the industrialized 'Final Solution' to the persecution of Jews that had been going on for centuries in Christian Europe.


But hey it's only muslims who've done this kind of thing.
Yeah right. Dumbass :roll:

[a_very_ex_STAB]

What happened in Bosnia? I slept through it ...



What happened in Kosovo? I slept through it too ...


Well I already knew you weren't to be taken seriously. Good of you to be dumb enough to confirm it though. :roll:

[Lt. James Anderson]

Well I already knew you weren't to be taken seriously. Good of you to be dumb enough to confirm it though. :roll:

Dude, I really have no idea what you're talking about ... I googled Bosnian war and Kosovo war and that's what I got ... Obviously something happened that I'm not aware of ... Can you enlighten me please? :)

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Dude, I really have no idea what you're talking about ... I googled Bosnian war and Kosovo war and that's what I got ... Obviously something happened that I'm not aware of ... Can you enlighten me please? :)

I bet you have to be given explicit instructions on how to take a dump don't you.

Don't expect promotion any time soon LT.:roll:

[Lt. James Anderson]

Still don't know what you are talking about ...
That must be some top secret sheet for sure :)

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Still don't know what you are talking about ...
That must be some top secret sheet for sure :)

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

[Palmach]

You seem to be very conveniently forgetting that the people who organised and carried out the holocaust were born and brought up in Christian countries in Europe and that the holocaust was the industrialized 'Final Solution' to the persecution of Jews that had been going on for centuries in Christian Europe.


But hey it's only muslims who've done this kind of thing.
Yeah right. Dumbass :roll:

Your constant referals to the Balkan wars - by the way, why no reference to what the Greeks did in Turkey or Serbs, Balgarians, etc in the first Balkan war? - and the Holocaust do nothing to advance your point simply because it is easily rebuttable.

Holocaust might have grown out of cultural pre-desposition for Jeudophobia caused in large degree by religion, but it was not modivated by religious bigotry - the Warsaw getto had a functioning Cathlic church for ethnic Jews of that faith.

What you could point out is how certain concepts in Islam in conjunction with political relatilies of the Islamic world - demographic explosion, lack of core state(s), etc - produce a cultural entiry which at this point has a hard time playing with others. You could also point out how certain teaching in Christianity combined with a set of political and economic realities produced the Crusades.

[Lt. James Anderson]

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Sorry. Still not getting it ...
What do Bosnia and Kosovo war have to do with anything??

[Kilgor]

You seem to be very conveniently forgetting that the people who organised and carried out the holocaust were born and brought up in Christian countries in Europe and that the holocaust was the industrialized 'Final Solution' to the persecution of Jews that had been going on for centuries in Christian Europe.


But hey it's only muslims who've done this kind of thing.
Yeah right. Dumbass :roll:

Obviously leftist bigotry here is clouding your mind with apologetic tripe like that. What the Nazi's did in the name of Racial purity has little to do with religion compared to the religiously inspired Islamic terrorist.

At least you could have found a christian atrocity that was primarily motivated by religious grounds.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Obviously leftist bigotry here is clouding your mind with apologetic tripe like that. What the Nazi's did in the name of Racial purity has little to do with religion compared to the religiously inspired Islamic terrorist.

At least you could have found a christian atrocity that was primarily motivated by religious grounds.

I guess it hadn't occurred to you that psychos in the ME just need an excuse to hide behind just like the Nazis. Islamism just happens to be their particular excuse:roll:

I would have thought that Bosnian Serbs killing Bosnian muslims because they were muslims would be enough religious grounds for you but I guess you just can't please some people when it comes to mass murder.

[Kilgor]

I guess it hadn't occurred to you that psychos in the ME just need an excuse to hide behind just like the Nazis. Islamism just happens to be their particular excuse:roll:

I would have thought that Bosnian Serbs killing Bosnian muslims because they were muslims would be enough religious grounds for you but I guess you just can't please some people when it comes to mass murder.

Excuse ? I think you need to read up more about the men who commit such acts. A excuse is not needed, these men (and women) truely believe their actions are correct.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."

[Laworkerbee]

What you could point out is how certain concepts in Islam in conjunction with political relatilies of the Islamic world - demographic explosion, lack of core state(s), etc - produce a cultural entiry which at this point has a hard time playing with others. You could also point out how certain teaching in Christianity combined with a set of political and economic realities produced the Crusades.

very well said

[Lt. James Anderson]

I would have thought that Bosnian Serbs killing Bosnian muslims because they were muslims would be enough religious grounds for you but I guess you just can't please some people when it comes to mass murder.

FYI, it was a civil war ... Ugly, brutal etc. like any other war. Religion was only one aspect that led to the conflict and Muslims were far more religious than the Serbs. The things that contributed to the conflict were history (the WWI and WWII never ended in that region), ethnicity, territory, religion etc.

Your comparison is flawed ...

[a_very_ex_STAB]

FYI, it was a civil war ... Ugly, brutal etc. like any other war. Religion was only one aspect that led to the conflict and Muslims were far more religious than the Serbs. The things that contributed to the conflict were history (the WWI and WWII never ended in that region), ethnicity, territory, religion etc.

Your comparison is flawed ...

Actually Bosnian muslims were probably the least religious of muslims prior to the war LT whereas the orthodox faith was a major driver on the Serb side so your analysis would be appear to be incorrect.

[Laworkerbee]

Chalk one of for STAB for he is pretty right on with that one LT.

They became quite religious after Muslim aid started pouring in from Saudi and Iran once the war was near completion though.

This is as someone stated earlier this is more of a "fault line conflict" rather than a civil war

some reading about them can be found here, I just got his book and it's been quite an eye opener http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9905E7D7173DF932A35751C1A960958260

[Lt. James Anderson]

Not really. While you are correct that Bosnian Muslims weren't too religious before the war ... but neither were the Serbs. If I remember correctly any religion was unofficially forbidden under the communist rule in Yugoslavia (even through the 60's and 70's going to church and celebrating Christmas openly could land you in deep trouble).

Laworkerbee, Bosnian Muslim president at that time served some time in prison for his Islamic views. I remember reading parts of one of his books where he stated that Islam and any other religion can not coexist peacefully in the same state ... one religion must prevail.

[Xaito]

any religion was unofficially forbidden under the communist rule in Yugoslavia (even through the 60's and 70's going to church and celebrating Christmas openly could land you in deep trouble).


even during the late 80's when I was born in Russia I was christened secretly to avoid trouble

[Laworkerbee]

even during the late 80's when I was born in Russia I was christened secretly to avoid trouble

No kidding huh? I never would have thought that. I thought the Orthodox church was allowed to operate in the open after Comrade Stalin died.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Not really. While you are correct that Bosnian Muslims weren't too religious before the war ... but neither were the Serbs. If I remember correctly any religion was unofficially forbidden under the communist rule in Yugoslavia (even through the 60's and 70's going to church and celebrating Christmas openly could land you in deep trouble).

Laworkerbee, Bosnian Muslim president at that time served some time in prison for his Islamic views. I remember reading parts of one of his books where he stated that Islam and any other religion can not coexist peacefully in the same state ... one religion must prevail.

You seem to have missed the explosion in religious fervour unleashed by the fall of communism.
But then you miss a lot of things :roll:

[xSlofoxx]

Laworkerbee, Bosnian Muslim president at that time served some time in prison for his Islamic views. I remember reading parts of one of his books where he stated that Islam and any other religion can not coexist peacefully in the same state ... one religion must prevail.


Yeah, exactly when does reading online Serbian comments count as reading a book?

/Liar got caught

[Lt. James Anderson]

You seem to have missed the explosion in religious fervour unleashed by the fall of communism.
But then you miss a lot of things :roll:

I didn't miss it. In case of Yugoslavia ... I think it would be correct to say that it was always there but it was suppressed by the communists (communism is a religion that also can not coexist with other religions).

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I didn't miss it. In case of Yugoslavia ... I think it would be correct to say that it was always there but it was suppressed by the communists (communism is a religion that also can not coexist with other religions).

So it's just like the capitalist religion then?

[Zathras]

listen, forget about all the historical intricacies, the nature of all these religions, tribal or not, it doesnt matter.

just look at today's news headlines. There is definitely trouble in Islam land, where the vast majority of muslim nations are set in stagnation, dictatorships, and scientific and economic drought. Add to that the treatment of non-muslims under muslim rule (historically) has been brutal.

The vast majority of terrorism committed today is by people who claim to be Muslims. Why is that? The religion needs a reformation, and instead the current wave is of Salafist fundamentalism, including Wahabi and Deobandi strains. Add to that, you have millions of Muslims who truly and deeply believe that Islam needs to rule the world, to establish the Dar al Islam.

this isnt some tiny minority. Sure they are a 'minority' within mainstream Islam, but a minority out of over a billion people is a huge, huge number.

Where are these millions of muslims who want to rule the world? Where is there army?

You are right on some stuff, ie the dangers of salafism and extremists. But you are generalising way too much, the world is not black and white its not as simple as you want it to be.

[wilhelm]

a_very_ex_STAB ...

Your replies on this forum are generally a breath of fresh air in a cesspit. However...

Are you suggesting you have absolutely no qualms about living under a Muslim leadership? That you have no problems letting, say, your daughter grow up in a Muslim country?

Can you list the Democratic Muslim nations on this earth? Also as a percentage of that total?
Can you list the Muslim countries where females (your daughter) enjoy the same rights as males? Also as a percentage of that total please.

In South Africa, the Muslim Judicial Council endeavour to get their symbol on all non-pork food products in the country. This costs money as well as the need to be inspected. Your product is viciously attacked and boycotted if you dare to not comply. I have experience of this firsthand. Muslims currently make up about 6% of the population. Screw the other 94%.

I also worked with a Muslim lady at the time of 9/11. She came to work very happy the next day and said that America got what they deserved and they had been up late that night discussing it:-(. I am critical of Americas policy in the Middle East, but it was an eye opener to see the general lack of condemnation. To me, it is not wether the fundamentalists are a minority .... it is the fact that they enjoy the silence of the vast majority in any criticism of their actions. I refuse to believe you are insane enough not to be concerned about this.

Back on topic: I remember a few years back whilst living up north, that as the Boulton town precincts enjoyed a Muslim majority, they tried to table a motion to introduce Sharia law. You remember this.

And finally: Are you suggesting a United Kingdom devoid of bacon?p-)

[wilhelm]

...and ale served at room temperatute?

[a_very_ex_STAB]

a_very_ex_STAB ...

Your replies on this forum are generally a breath of fresh air in a cesspit.

Why thank you! :)


Are you suggesting you have absolutely no qualms about living under a Muslim leadership? That you have no problems letting, say, your daughter grow up in a Muslim country?

No I have pretty much equal contempt for ALL religions. Hope that makes it clear.


Back on topic: I remember a few years back whilst living up north, that as the Boulton town precincts enjoyed a Muslim majority, they tried to table a motion to introduce Sharia law. You remember this.

Well I don't remember that in particular but Bolton's not far from me. You hear loony things like that from time to time. They never come to anything though.


And finally: Are you suggesting a United Kingdom devoid of bacon?p-)

No but I don't want a United Kingdom devoid of curry either.

[wilhelm]

a_very_ex_STAB;2568132]Why thank you! :)

A pleasure.




No I have pretty much equal contempt for ALL religions. Hope that makes it clear.

I very much tend to agree. However, small pockets notwithstanding, the majority of people raised in Christian countries tend to value secularity in education and governance. I fear that this is not the case with Islam, which is more a way of life and a religeon, as opposed to something you just do on a Saturday or Sunday. I think that Christians have become 'less' religeous. I would venture to say Muslims have not. This is only an opinion based on personal observations.




Well I don't remember that in particular but Bolton's not far from me. You hear loony things like that from time to time. They never come to anything though.

Explains a lot. Northerners are known for their forthrightness. (cantankerous?p-))




No but I don't want a United Kingdom devoid of curry either.

Absolutely.

[Royal]

Yeah, exactly when does reading online Serbian comments count as reading a book?

/Liar got caught

Oh yeah?

So what does Izetbegović's 'Islamska deklaracija' say then?

Looks like you've earned an infraction...

[xSlofoxx]

Oh yeah?

So what does Izetbegović's 'Islamska deklaracija' say then?

Looks like you've earned an infraction...

I don't know , since knowing one language makes you an self proclaimed expert on balkan issues why don't you tell me ?


. Muslim minorities in non-Islamic majority countries should be loyal to every social duty and every norm imposed by the community, on condition that they don’t offend Islam and Muslims, and of being able to dispose of religious freedom and of a normali life». Evidently, only this last sentence is directly applicable to the Bosnian situation. Thus, where Izetbegovic affirms (being usually cited apart from the context by the Serbian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia) propaganda) that «there’s no peace or coexistence between the Islamic faith and non-Islamic social and political institutions» he refers to those countries in which good Muslims constituting the majority of the population can not accept the imposition of non-Islamic institutions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Islamic_Declaration



Thanks for the infraction .

[Royal]

Thanks for the infraction .

No problem. Do it again and you can have another.

Oh and thanks for the crap from Noel Malcolm, I'd forgotton how bad his writing (& his history and analysis) was...

[krasnayaarmiya]

Thank you.
I said the Pope was the most influential leader of "the time", meaning the early 20th century. I don't need to slow down, you need to keep up.

[krasnayaarmiya]

Wow, the holocaust was motivated by religion and not racial hygene.

Looks like you learn something new every day !
And the tradition in Europe of the Blood Libel, and that Jews killed Jesus, was not a tradition that was built upon by late 19th century Odinists and occultists who were not Christian? They were following a very Christian legacy of pogroms. Racism and religion are not mutually exclusive, as religion CAN exacerbate tribalism (us vs. them, our god vs. their god, god vs. atheists- all used expertly by Nazis- are you telling me the chaplains in the Waffen SS were Odinist, not Christian??)

[krasnayaarmiya]

Sorry. Still not getting it ...
What do Bosnia and Kosovo war have to do with anything??

Well, he was referring to the propensity of non-Muslims to engage in genocide, backed by religiously sponsored national mythologies... it IS germane to the topic, if you follow the conversation.

[krasnayaarmiya]

FYI, it was a civil war ... Ugly, brutal etc. like any other war. Religion was only one aspect that led to the conflict and Muslims were far more religious than the Serbs. The things that contributed to the conflict were history (the WWI and WWII never ended in that region), ethnicity, territory, religion etc.

Your comparison is flawed ...
REALLY? Even though the ethnicity of Bosniaks, Serbs, and Croats are arguably the same? They speak Serbo-Croat, but Croats are Catholic, Serbs are Eastern Orthodox, and Bosnians are nominally Muslim. The "ethnicity" factor was injected by nationalist Serb and Croat politicians chomping at the bit for some power after Tito died. The fact that Westerners even refer so much to the "ethnicity" thing shows how successful the, well, "balkanization" by the religious nationalists were through means of their propaganda.

[krasnayaarmiya]

Obviously leftist bigotry here is clouding your mind with apologetic tripe like that. What the Nazi's did in the name of Racial purity has little to do with religion compared to the religiously inspired Islamic terrorist.

At least you could have found a christian atrocity that was primarily motivated by religious grounds.

Enslavement and subjugation of millions of "heathens" across the globe?

[BloodyTalon]

And the tradition in Europe of the Blood Libel, and that Jews killed Jesus, was not a tradition that was built upon by late 19th century Odinists and occultists who were not Christian? They were following a very Christian legacy of pogroms. Racism and religion are not mutually exclusive, as religion CAN exacerbate tribalism (us vs. them, our god vs. their god, god vs. atheists- all used expertly by Nazis- are you telling me the chaplains in the Waffen SS were Odinist, not Christian??)
Could you please show us the Nazi propoganda that claims that the Jews were to be exterminated because they killed Christ, or are you going to continue on your "Christians are just as evil as radical Muslims" circle-jerk?

[krasnayaarmiya]

Could you please show us the Nazi propoganda that claims that the Jews were to be exterminated because they killed Christ, or are you going to continue on your "Christians are just as evil as radical Muslims" circle-jerk?

OH, so the centuries of persecution of Jews in Europe (read: Christendom) that the Germans were building on just popped out of the blue?

[BloodyTalon]

OH, so the centuries of persecution of Jews in Europe (read: Christendom) that the Germans were building on just popped out of the blue?
You didn't answer the question. Can you or can you not show explicit evidence that the main point of the Holocaust as explained by the Nazis was revenge for Christ's death or are you just going to play the guilt by association card on Christendom all day long?

[krasnayaarmiya]

You didn't answer the question. Can you or can you not show explicit evidence that the main point of the Holocaust as explained by the Nazis was revenge for Christ's death or are you just going to play the guilt by association card on Christendom all day long?

I'm not your personal researcher, and I'm tired of this now. Wikipedia: Adolf Hitler and Mein Kampf and Martin Luther and Pogrom. Sounds like it's your guilt by association. It's not a card I'm "playing". Sorry you're so butt-hurt. As I said, I don't think the article is sound, but I don't think Islam invented religious intolerance, nor does it have a monopoly on it. People have different views on God, and some people cannot stand that. Spirituality is God-given, but religion is man-made, in my not-so-humble opinion. Neither Christianity nor Islam will conquer the other. Take the long view and chill.

[BloodyTalon]

I'm not your personal researcher, and I'm tired of this now. Wikipedia: Adolf Hitler and Mein Kampf and Martin Luther and Pogrom. Sounds like it's your guilt by association. It's not a card I'm "playing".
You are the one that has asserted that Christians have as much blood on their hands as Muslims in modern history and claim the Holocaust has an example, yet you have failed for a third consecutive time to link the actions with the Nazis with doing the supposed bidding of a religion. And since you love wikipedia so much, you would probably love to look up this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Mysticism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_race#Aryanism

Here's a hint: belief in the Master Race, Atlantis, Shambala, Hitler's supposed divinity, and that you can find anything by dangling a pendulum over a map is not Christian doctrine.

The Nazis commited their crimes for a number of reasons, but even a kid in junior high knows that avenging Jesus wasn't one of them. Religion did not factor in. That isn't to say that blood hasn't been shed in the name of Christianity, but the religion as the greater whole has moved on. On the other hand, there are still large sections of Islam that are still stuck in a ancient midset and shed blood, and the majority of the faith who do not stand for this backwards mentality fail to show any supstantial opposition against it.

[ThatHistoryDude]

What good does it do to discuss things like the crusades or reformation era and more recent pogroms when the problems we are dealing with currently as regards global terrorism lie in the muslim world and their struggle to come into the modern world?

The answer is of course it does no good at all. Does Christianity have a bloody past? Yes! Is it the cause of the majority of global conflict in the present day? No! What if any religion is? Islam!

Now deal with that and lets stop bashing the Christian world for evils of the past.

[Skutatos]

The crusades weren't even known as such during their period. Indeed most of the misconceptions today about the crusades being merely about money or a holy war come from the "Age of Enlightenment" when anything that could be used against the catholic church was. In fact it was during this period that the word crusade came into common usage. In all honestly, the brutality of the crusades dont really set them apart from any other conflict of that era, they were all brutal.

The first crusade was really just kind of an armed pilgrimage to take back jerusalem because the muslims in control of that region had become extremely intolerant of christian pilgrims to the holy land. Up until then the rulers in the area had been fairly accepting of other religions. After that it was just a big argument over who had rights to what, the religious aspect of it all was just an argument over who had rights to visit their holy places, if you study the crusades you will find few instances of any attempt to fully exterminate or convert muslims outside the normal brutality of warfare at the time.

Also it should be noted that Pope Urban the 2nd upon hearing of jewish populations being massacred by the German Crusade as it traveled towards the Holy Land, CONDEMNED such actions. Authorities as well as religious leaders actively protected their jewish subjects when possible.

Also it should be noted that the Crusades started a whole new era in europe, it drug europe out of the dark ages as the 'crusaders' came back to europe with all sorts of new ideas about education, science, architecture, agriculture, trade, sanitation, and of course military actions learned from the different cultures they came in contact with. (The Byzantines, Armenians, various Islamic Factions)

I suggest the 3 volume set "The Crusades" by Stephen Runciman if you are interested in this period. But not without reading more recent works first as this set is 50 years old and the author is somewhat biased in many ways. "A Concise History of the Crusades" would probably actually be a better place to start.

[haze99]

Before all you English gents begin to grow a beard and pull-out your prayer rugs, check out Walid Shoebat. A former PLO terrorist who is now a Christian! (oooh!)
Trust him, he should know what Islam will do to the UK and any other place you give it a foot-hold!
Oh, don't forget the up and coming place to raise a family, Gaza!

[Hollis]

Before all you English gents begin to grow a beard and pull-out your prayer rugs, check out Walid Shoebat. A former PLO terrorist who is now a Christian! (oooh!)
Trust him, he should know what Islam will do to the UK and any other place you give it a foot-hold!
Oh, don't forget the up and coming place to raise a family, Gaza!


I have listened to him, Walid. A very interesting man.

[Lazy Lob]

Also it should be noted that the Crusades started a whole new era in europe, it drug europe out of the dark ages as the 'crusaders' came back to europe with all sorts of new ideas about education, science, architecture, agriculture, trade, sanitation, and of course military actions learned from the different cultures they came in contact with. (The Byzantines, Armenians, various Islamic Factions)

So we learnt from ourselves. That’s a new concept ;-)

Dates lad, dates and not the type that hang from palm trees. The dark ages ended around the 10th century. The first crusade was roughly a century later so logically it couldn’t have dragged (by your argument) Europe out of the dark ages. This only happens in science fiction films when time travels in reverse.

May I suggest the following link.

www.hyperhistory.com