Survey of WW1 grave site at Fromelles

[Opening Batsman]

Minister Assisting the Minister for Defence Media Mail List
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MINASSIST 029/2007
Friday, 8 June 2007

SURVEY OF WORLD WAR ONE GRAVE SITE AT FROMELLES

A non-invasive scientific survey of an alleged First World War burial site from the battle of Fromelles in northern France has uncovered evidence that Australian war dead had been buried there the Minister Assisting the Minister for Defence Bruce Billson said today.

Mr Billson said a preliminary report from an expert scientific team revealed subsurface anomalies in the soil that coincide with war time aerial photos and confirm the presence of a series of pits.

“The survey also found some compelling evidence that Australian war dead, possibly more than 160, were buried on the site after the battle by the Germans,” Mr Billson said.

“The most dramatic evidence, two copper alloy amulets or medallions with inscriptions clearly identifying them as belonging to Australians, were located close to the two western-most pits and close to the light railway that war time photos show the Germans using to move the dead.”

The presence of these objects is very significant because the Australians never operated in this area, so could only have come from prisoners or the dead in German hands.

The survey has also cast doubt on the likelihood that the remains were recovered in post war battlefield clearance operations as the pattern and distribution of bullets, shrapnel and other debris of battle suggests the soil was undisturbed after the end of the war.

“Although this is a significant outcome, I must stress that this report is the preliminary report based only on field observations,” said Mr Billson.

“The final report, which will include the scientific evidence obtained from ground penetrating radar, gradiometer and resistivity techniques used on the site, is expected to provide additional evidence as to the actual presence of soldier’s remains in the pits.”

“If the final report does confirm these initial findings, the Australian Government will seek the support of French authorities to evaluate the site and confirm, or otherwise, our findings. It is hoped that this evaluation might be concluded by Christmas.

"The evidence gathered so appears strengthen the case to formally approach the French authorities about excavating the site for further analysis, however, that decision would rest with the French, whose cooperation to date has been commendable and greatly appreciated."

Mr Billson also commended the work of the group of private citizens, the Friends of the Fifteenth Brigade Association, from Melbourne and their spokesman and chief advocate, Mr Lambis Englezos.

“The accurate and detailed research undertaken by the group was instrumental in the decision by Army to undertake this survey and Mr Englezos is to be congratulated for his work,” Mr Billson said.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Very Interesting. Thanks!

[James]

Wow.

In the past couple of weeks, I read an article which said the U.S. has only 3 WWI vets left alive. I know that there are no more Digger vets left from Gallipoli, and I wonder about Aussie vets of the war after 1915.

This news makes me feel sad, if for no other reason than that these supremely brave men are gone.

[Opening Batsman]

I'm fairly sure all of our Diggers from WW1 are gone now, and have been for a while.:-( Kinda makes you realise that this will happen with the WW2 vets as well, so you had best enjoy their presence while you can.
EDIT: http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/goodbye-to-all-that--the-last-of-australias-great-war-veteransdies/2005/10/18/1129401256761.html

Fromelles was one giant stuff up, thousands of men charging across mud and barbed wire without any hope of success. Basically wiped out the 60th Battalion (15th Brigade), my great-grandfather was one of the reinforcements who built it up again.

Two battalions were effectively destroyed in the battle and had to be rebuilt: out of 887 personnel from the 60th Battalion, only one officer and 106 other ranks survived; the 32nd Battalion sustained 718 casualties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fromelles

[James]

Godspeed Digger. Sun in your face and wind at your back. Thank you.

[capixaba]

Some more info seen on today's news.

WWI 'mass grave' found in France
Archaeologists believe they have found a mass grave of British and Australian troops killed in World War I.
They say there is "compelling" evidence that the bodies of up to 400 soldiers remain near the site of the Battle of Fromelles in northern France.
The discovery by Glasgow University's Centre for Battlefield Archaeology is the largest of its kind.
Australian, British, French and German authorities now have to decide whether to proceed with a mass exhumation.
'Draw attention'
It is estimated that 5,500 Australians and 2,000 British troops were killed or injured in the 1916 battle.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif


Although largely forgotten in Britain, in Australia the battle is believed to be nearly as important as that at Gallipoli.
A young Adolf Hitler served as a messenger on the German side.
Dr Tony Pollard, who led the team surveying the site, said it was important to keep alive the memory of those killed.
"To some extent, Fromelles was overshadowed by the Somme in Britain," he told the BBC News website.
"But it was a terrible event that deserves to be remembered.
"I hope that our work can draw attention to the thousands of men who were killed."
The site is believed to be the largest modern mass grave that was not the result of genocide.
Dr Pollard said German records indicated that between 60 and 160 of the men buried at the site were Australian, and the remainder British.
Using ground-penetrating radar and metal detectors, his team were able to pinpoint where they believe the graves were located.
The research was funded by the Australian government, but a multi-national group would have to be established if a decision were ever taken to exhume the bodies, Dr Pollard said.
'Gone astray'
The Battle of Fromelles is regarded by military historians as an unmitigated disaster. Its plan was to divert German attention from the Somme by launching an assault on heavily-fortified positions in broad daylight. The British withdrew and left the Australians to fight their way back through the German lines.
BBC Scotland.

I read elsewhere they recon on around 160 Australian and 240 British soldiers are buried there.
Hopefully they will exume them, and be able to identify as many as possible. Normally when remains are found, they are reburied in a CWGC cemetary with military honours,sometimes by thier own regiments (if still in existance). It's a pretty moving sight.

[DeltaWhisky58]

WWI 'grave' revives forgotten battle

By Phil Mackie
BBC News
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/999999.gif

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b212/HighlandSniper58/_43026739_soldier_250.jpg
WWI British Army recruits, before meeting the reality of war


Archaeologists say there is "compelling" evidence they have found the mass burial site of British and Australian troops who were killed during World War I.

They believe the bodies of up to 400 soldiers remain in unmarked graves in northern France near the site of the Battle of Fromelles.

It is the largest discovery of its kind and the Australian, British, French and German authorities must now decide whether to proceed with a mass exhumation of the soldiers' remains.

The Battle of Fromelles was an unmitigated disaster.

It was conceived as a ruse to divert German attention away from the campaign on the Somme in July 1916.

Burial pits

The British and Australians launched an assault on heavily fortified positions in broad daylight.

Although they fought bravely they suffered heavy losses.
The British withdrew and the Australians had to fight their way back through the German lines.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/43026000/jpg/_43026917_somme_pa_250.jpg
The Battle of Fromelles is often overshadowed by the Somme


A second assault was cancelled, though the Australians were not told and they lost more men.

A geophysical survey has located burial pits where hundreds of soldiers were buried after the battle.

Dr Tony Pollard, the director of the Centre for Battlefield Archaeology at Glasgow University, has just returned from the site.

"To my knowledge this is the largest unmarked mass grave from the First World War to be discovered in modern times," he said.

"There have been multiple graves in the past, but they've been maybe 20 to 30 men. We're talking here of somewhere in the region of 400 men according to the German records that we have".

He said a metal detector survey revealed a number of artefacts including metal objects with Australian Army insignia on them.

"The only way they could have got there really is on the dead bodies of Australian soldiers," he said.

"The bodies haven't been disinterred and buried elsewhere. We believe there's strong evidence that the bodies are still buried in that field."

Visit from Hitler

In Australia the battle is regarded as one of the most significant in its history.

Dr Pollard said, among Australians, the Battle of Fromelles is talked about in the same breath as Gallipoli.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/start_quote_rb.gif We are potentially speaking of 399 sets of remains - a very costly and very lengthy exercise http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote_rb.gif
Peter Barton, Historian

"It's a huge national disaster. Within the 12 or 15 hours of the battle 5,500 Australian soldiers were either killed or wounded."

But he said it also held strong significance for the British.

"We tend to forget the Battle of Fromelles over here because it's overshadowed by the Battle of the Somme.

"But upwards of 1,500 to 2,000 British soldiers were killed or wounded in that same attack and several hundred of those may be in those grave pits."
It was the first time its troops had seen action on the Western Front, and it is seen as an example of how the Empire was prepared to sacrifice its colonial troops with little thought about the consequences.

It is believed Adolf Hitler, then a corporal in the Bavarian reserve infantry, ran messages behind the German lines during the battle.

And the bunker Hitler visited in the 1940s when he came to occupied France is said to be just a few hundred yards from the burial site.

The mammoth task of trying to work out who might buried there has already begun. Historian and author Peter Barton, who is also part of the team working on the project, said: "We are potentially speaking of 399 sets of remains - a very costly and very lengthy exercise, as indeed the excavation itself would be." The next decision will be whether to exhume the bodies and bury them with full military honours.

BBC News Online (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6735365.stm)

[ronnieraygun]

RIP

Link removed - threads merged.

[Opening Batsman]

Dr Pollard said, among Australians, the Battle of Fromelles is talked about in the same breath as Gallipoli.

It should be, but I reckon 90% of Aussies wouldn't know what Fromelles was if you hit them on the head with it. All we get taught about at school is Gallipoli, and pretty much every TV program come Anzac Day is about Gallipoli.

[DeltaWhisky58]

It's pretty much the same here - a major battle which history has forgotten. It's largely down to the Germans that we know about this grave site at all.

[Hollos]

Has anyone got a site or more info of what happened in the battle and what regiments were involved as ive never heard of this battle

[Opening Batsman]

Has anyone got a site or more info of what happened in the battle and what regiments were involved as ive never heard of this battle

http://www.awm.gov.au/wartime/36/article.asp

Good article on it here. For a more scientific look, the wikipedia page goes all right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fromelles

[Tiger75]

Nice thread......:)


Check this out........http://ninemsn.video.msn.com/v/en-au/v.htm?f=39&g=169749e4-e945-48c6-ac67-ac646127eb2d&p=aunews_au60minutes&t=m163