Police shoot a 15 year old wielding scissors.

[MonkeyLibFront]

http://www.courierpostonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070608/NEWS01/706080373/1006/news01


By JASON LAUGHLIN and JIM WALSH
Courier-Post Staff

WILLINGBORO A 15-year-old boy was shot twice after he allegedly threatened a police officer with scissors outside a private school for children with emotional or behavioral disorders, officials said Thursday.
The youth, identified only as a student at Garfield Park Academy, was wounded in the chest and abdomen. He was reported in critical but stable condition at Cooper University Hospital, Camden, on Thursday night.
The township officer who shot the youth, Sgt. William Smith, was not injured. The 19-year veteran was placed on administrative leave and the shooting will be investigated, according to the Burlington County Prosecutor's Office.
The incident, which was criticized by the mother of a teen shot dead by police under similar circumstances last year, occurred about 4 p.m. at the Glenolden Lane school.
The student wielded two pairs of scissors as he threatened school employees and students in an office, then moved through a hallway and into a parking lot, said Jack Smith, a spokesman for the prosecutor's office.
He was shot after lunging at an officer in a grassy median in front of the school, Jack Smith said. "The officers gave numerous verbal commands for him to drop the weapons," he said.
People living near the school said they were shocked to hear gunshots.
"I was just sitting down to watch Oprah and drink some iced tea and I heard those two pops," recalled Violet Frech, 82.
Mary Saunders, an assistant teacher, said people were yelling, "put it down, put it down" before the shooting.
Shortly after the gunshots she went outside to see what had happened.
"He was right there," she said, describing the shooting victim lying on his side clutching his stomach.
Police officers aren't an unusual sight at Garfield, neighbors said.
"I've seen kids up on the roof," Frech said. "Up on top of the bus, or hiding in the corner back in the bushes there."
The incident was criticized by Carol Dunn, whose son, Richard, 19, was fatally shot by police in March 2006. Authorities said Richard Dunn threatened people at a local church with a knife, then ignored orders to drop the weapon and lunged at police.
A county and state investigation concluded Patrolman Jonathan Palmore was justified in using deadly force against Dunn.
"Our prayers go out to this boy and his family," Carol Dunn said. "Our son was murdered. The police don't have any regard for life."
"I think police should take every necessary step to save lives. This should be included in their training," she said. "Are they interested in taking lives or is the state of New Jersey interested in saving lives?"
An investigation will look at circumstances surrounding the shooting, as well as compliance with the state attorney general's guidelines, Smith said.
New Jersey has not approved nonlethal alternatives for police officers in such confrontations.
Another man died during a confrontation with Willingboro police in November 2005.
Tyrone Awkward, 37, collapsed outside his Harrington Circle home after he resisted officers who were trying to take him to a mental health facility, officials said.
Burlington County Prosecutor Robert Bernardi later said police had acted properly and that Awkward died of heart disease. The man's family has blamed police for the death.
Garfield Park, a school of 180, serves students with emotional and mental disabilities ages 5 to 21, Morse saidEven though i'm not a big fan of tazers, isn't this the type of situation they should be employed in? But New Jersey have not given the go ahead for non lethal alternatives, but to be honest you could probally charge him down with a shield and or take him from behind.

" Garfield Park, a school of 180, serves students with emotional and mental disabilities ages 5 to 21" I really think the police should have acted a little more restrained as it's people with know mental and emotional disabilities, take him down with a mattress or something would have been better than shooting him in the chest and stomach.

[PaulClift]

Seems pretty extreme, unless he was an immediate threat such as close enough to someone to actually stab them you would think the option to use non lethal force or just contain him would be better all round.



He was shot after lunging at an officer in a grassy median in front of the school, Jack Smith said. "The officers gave numerous verbal commands for him to drop the weapons," he said.

Reading the above, it sounds like the officer did not have any other option, if you only have your gun and someone comes at you with any kind of weapon you have to protect yourself.

[MonkeyLibFront]

A 15 year old boy lunging with scissors in my opinion does not constitute shooting him twice, why not pepper spray him or double team him with batons?

[pfcsmith1371]

The police is getting more and more violent each day. they should stop watching south park, and the pointless deaths would stop. Police should use deadly force for when its really needed

[PaulClift]

A 15 year old boy lunging with scissors in my opinion does not constitute shooting him twice, why not pepper spray him or double team him with batons?

Not having a dig at you, but a 15 year old could be the same size and strength and therefore as dangerous in this situation as any adult, now say it was a 25 year old that got shot, do you think there would be the same coverage of it?

[MonkeyLibFront]

Not having a dig at you, but a 15 year old could be the same size and strength and therefore as dangerous in this situation as any adult, now say it was a 25 year old that got shot, do you think there would be the same coverage of it?

Probally seeing as he was only armed with a pair of scissors, but i think the main point of this is that the boy was from an institute that deals with mental and emotional problems in my opinion he was overzealous with two shots and even shooting at all and fair to quick to reach for his gun.

[SBL]

Had I been a cop, I probably would have shot him.

[Laconian]

Until you've had to deal with an emotionally disturbed subject armed with an edged weapon or have received training to do so, you are merely speculating. This subject was not contained and running around posing a deadly threat to both the officer(s) and others. That alone meets the legal requirments for the use of deadly force.

Even if they had a TASER, that tool is not a replacement for deadly force.
Pepper Spray might not have been the better option due to environmental reasons (wind, etc.) Plus OC is effective to about 12 ft. I'm not closing with an armed individual that close w/OC - it is unsafe. Tag teaming with batons is even a worse idea. Maybe other Less Lethal options existed, but again the bad guy wasn't contained.

It is unfortunate he made the police shoot him. Maybe next time he'll listen.

[MonkeyLibFront]

So how do people in the institution deal with an armed person who has a pair of scissors? do they shoot him?

[Hydro]

So how do people in the institution deal with an armed person who has a pair of scissors? do they shoot him?


Well, it seems they call the police.

[MonkeyLibFront]

Well, it seems they call the police.

From someone who lives in the area.

"My mom and brother work at a psych unit in hospitals and they're telling me the usual way to deal with an out of control patient armed or not is mostly to jump them from behind or charge them with mattresses (this is kind of a funny mental image)."

I just feel that a 15 year old with scissors is a threat but not one that should be shot twice in the chest. I just think that non lethal should have been employed and if they had to shoot him be it the last resort.

[Buckeye67]

I'm not going to take a stab wound in the neck, face, leg or anywhere else so you kids can feel better about yourselves.

Just based on what the article says, it seems the officers gave repeated verbal commands and only fired after the juvenile (and there are 15 year olds out there as large and strong as any adult) attacked one of the officers. It isn't like they rolled up on the scene and said "Hey look - kid with scissors! LIGHT 'IM UP, BOYS!" *BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM*.

Was this incident unfortunate? Yes. Tragic even? Yes. Did the officers react appropriately based on the information, as presented, in the article? Yes.

[Hydro]

From someone who lives in the area.

"My mom and brother work at a psych unit in hospitals and they're telling me the usual way to deal with an out of control patient armed or not is mostly to jump them from behind or charge them with mattresses (this is kind of a funny mental image)."





My cats brothers sister in law said....


If that was the case, why were the police there then? Who called them to say there was an out of control teenager wielding scissors on the run?


It's not as if a patrol was cruising by and then suddenly "Hey Bill, there's an emotionally challenged teenager making a ruckus, spin round so I can get some, will ya?".


From the other mentioned incident:


"Our son was murdered. The police don't have any regard for life."
"I think police should take every necessary step to save lives. This should be included in their training,"

As tragic as losing her son is, the police were saving lives. The lives of those that her son was threatening to kill, and the life of the Officer her son went for. The priority of the police is the public, not the perpetrator.

[Buckeye67]

I can imagine this roll-call:

"Ok guys, make sure you have your defibrillators, your masks and rubber gloves... oh - and don't forget to strap one of those matresses onto the roof of your vehicle before you leave. Yeah, it'll cover up the light bar - but God knows we need to have that non-lethal means of subduing some kid who's trying to stab you."

[Herrmannek]

A 15 year old boy lunging with scissors in my opinion does not constitute shooting him twice, why not pepper spray him or double team him with batons?

This days 15yold easily reach average strength, coordination, mentality* and agility of adult man... I don't see a reason why age should be a factor here... If what he did would give proper conditions to use deadly force I don't see reason why not to use it...

[Mamont]

So from now it's dangerous to walk out of home with scissors. I understand, that police didn't now use any of the hand-to-hand tactics to disarm opponent? Just shoots the suspects?

[Buckeye67]

No, it's dangerous to attack a police officer with the two pairs of scissors that you've threatening a bunch of other people with.

[Hydro]

So from now it's dangerous to walk out of home with scissors. I understand, that police didn't now use any of the hand-to-hand tactics to disarm opponent? Just shoots the suspects?




OK, off you go. Hand to hand with a sharp wielding opponent.

[Mamont]

So now 15-year old boy is martial arts master wielding a piece? Or those scissors were half a meter long? Unless he's taking classes he is preatty harmless to a trained person. Especially if his both hand were occupied.

[Buckeye67]

How many people have you disarmed? Are you an expert on that department's use of force continuum? Hell, how much experience do you have as a police officer?

You don't have to be a martial arts master to stab someone.

I was a police officer for five years. I was a firearms instructor, a PPCT Defensive Tactics Instructor and a member of our department's SWAT team. Had I been in a similar situation, and a "kid" "lunged" at me with scissors - I'd probably have reacted the way the officers in the article did.

[Hydro]

So now 15-year old boy is martial arts master wielding a piece? Or those scissors were half a meter long? Unless he's taking classes he is preatty harmless to a trained person. Especially if his both hand were occupied.



Are you really that simple? Don't think too hard though, the friction of both your brain cells rubbing together might cause a fire.

[Mamont]

How many people have you disarmed? Happened several times. Not with scissor though.

And i think that police officer is not "someone".



I was a police officer for five years. I was a firearms instructor, a PPCT Defensive Tactics Instructor and a member of our department's SWAT team. Had I been in a similar situation, and a "kid" "lunged" at me with scissors - I'd probably have reacted the way the officers in the article did.
Really nice record. I'm former airborne sergeant, and had training in disarming opponent with bare hands without killing him. Really, i don't know the details of your training and exams, but considering 15-year untrained kid a threat worth a gunshot is kinda disturbing.

Hydro, those words will surely please your dad. Go tell him.

[annihilation]

Shouldn't the institution have personnel trained to deal with this situation? Why do they have to call the cops to resolve it? Its not like the cop doesn't have enough problems with normal people that he now needs to be trained to deal with the mentally disturbed.

Also, I agree with others, what ever happened with using a tazer first? Or did they not get issued.

[Chosen Man]

Unless you're there how can you say what you'd do. even if you'd dealt with it before the circumstances will never be exactly the same. I do think it's s bit odd that they've no less than lethal option.
Mamont, your my man. You can take the stab wound when your UDT fails and I'll crack him round the head.

[Buckeye67]

Happened several times. Not with scissor though.

And i think that police officer is not "someone".


Really nice record. I'm former airborne sergeant, and had training in disarming opponent with bare hands without killing him. Really, i don't know the details of your training and exams, but considering 15-year untrained kid a threat worth a gunshot is kinda disturbing.

Hydro, those words will surely please your dad. Go tell him.

This post + your custom title = you're full of more **** than a manure processing plant.

[Gothjod]

I have to agree with PrivatePyle here. If the officer was attacked upon after several verbal commands... there is so much an officer can do (in that period of time). Perhaps waiting for non-lethal equipment such as shields or TASERs would have put more people in harm. Cops don't want to get stabbed you know... I believe they acted acordingly to the situation. (mental or not, the boy possed a threat to the officers and others)

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Just based on what the article says, it seems the officers gave repeated verbal commands and only fired after the juvenile (and there are 15 year olds out there as large and strong as any adult) attacked one of the officers.


It was a student at a school for children with mental illness!. If a person let alone a teenage who is not only going through the physical effects of puberty but is also suffering the effects of a mental illness, there is a high probability that any verbal warnings would not be understood and thus ignored.

Having two family members who suffer from mental illness I'm getting extremely ****ing pissed off with a society that ignores mental illness. Whether it's a lack of funding for hospitals and schools, support for family members who have to care for members with mental illness, ignoring the problem completely and hope it goes away. It's a ****ing disgrace.

The two family members I'm talking about. One is an uncle who is in his 50's and has a brain capacity of a 14 year old. My uncle can not effectively look after himself in a healthy, law abiding and financially sustainable manner without close to 24/7 supervision.

The other relative is in his 30's, deaf, is partially blind, suffers from schizophrenia and suffers a milder form of the impairment my uncle suffers from. He has also been in and out of gaol since he left school at 14 (because no school was prepared to take him) for burglary, assault, breaking and entering, car theft and drug possession.

These people do not have any sense of "Right and Wrong". Forcibly commanding them does not work. In such situations and trust me I've been through a couple of really scary situations with these relatives the best course of action in defusing a situation like this is to simply isolate the person and provide a distraction. In most cases isolating them, appear to back off does more in calming them down and quite often they will return to their normal behavior patterns and carry on as if nothing happened. (the Right and Wrong part"

It's high time society wakes up and starts treating mental illness seriously.

[Thorgen]

I think what matters is the equipment the patrol had access to at the scene. If the patrol was so poorly armed that all they had was firearms (which I really doubt), then yes it is of good judgement to shoot someone attacking you or someone else with scissors. No-one should be forced to risk their life and health for a nut case, that's for certain.

However my guess is that they had pepper spray with them, so why not just soak the kid with it. This would most certainly lower the attackers capability to inflict any wounds and one could simply evade attacks from blinded person. Should it be that he still would be aggressive and not willing to co-operate, put a few warning shots in the air. After that it would be ok to shoot the attacker to the leg to knock him down.

[Buckeye67]

A student at a school for people with mental illnesses is still capable of ramming a pair of scissors through my (or your) neck. Note that the officers didn't fire a weapon until the "kid" attacked ("lunged at") the officer(s).

Just because someone has some sort of impairment doesn't mean I have to let them stab me.

[nimer bortuqaal]

Personal responsiblity.... mental or not. You attack a LEO with a weapon and you should expect to die. There is always debate on one person has more of a evil weapon then the other one so the the response by the "more heavily armed" person was too much. It only takes second to get injured by an edged weapon and sometimes not too many more seconds to bleed out. LEO are not on the job to be someone's pin cushion.

[Martial]

My neighbor is 15 and he's 6'1" and 280 lbs. and dumb as hell. If it came down to fighting him or shooting him I would shoot.

[Mamont]

A student at a school for people with mental illnesses is still capable of ramming a pair of scissors through my (or your) neck. Note that the officers didn't fire a weapon until the "kid" attacked ("lunged at") the officer(s).
Just because someone has some sort of impairment doesn't mean I have to let them stab me.
Yes, yes today a 15-year old, tomorrow a 10-year old wielding a lighter. Shoot now, ask questions later.

Reading your answer and a couple of others i find it interesting how fast westerners jump to personal insults. Hard life i guess.

[Martial]

Reading your answer and a couple of others i find it interesting how fast westerners jump to personal insults. Hard life i guess.

I find it interesting that you are a scarf-wearing ******.p-)

[Calanen]

A 15 year old boy lunging with scissors in my opinion does not constitute shooting him twice, why not pepper spray him or double team him with batons?

Its real easy to be the armchair quarterback, but there is no time to have a committee meeting when someone is trying to put a pair of scissors into your throat.

[Dasein]

Dealing with mentaly ill suspects is one of the most dangerous and deadly areas of police work, both for the oficcers responding and for the suspects. It is well known that many police officers lack proper training in dealing with suspects who will not respond in a rational manner and are unable to comprehend things like verbal commands.

[Buckeye67]

Yes, yes today a 15-year old, tomorrow a 10-year old wielding a lighter. Shoot now, ask questions later.

You should try actually reading the article.


Reading your answer and a couple of others i find it interesting how fast westerners jump to personal insults. Hard life i guess.

Reading your answers and a couple of others, I find it interesting how fast morons jump to conclusions about a police officer's mindset, training and decision making during lethal-force encounters. Idiocy at work, I guess.

[PaulClift]

Mental illness may remove criminal responsibilty from an assailant, but it does not remove the right of everyone else not to be protected from being stabbed.

The public and the police have to be protected regardless, the person could be in pyschosis or they could be completely mentally sound but just enjoy stabbing someone, either way its the people without the weapon that would be my primary concern, and that concern would naturally extend to myself, what good am I to the publics saftey if I'm lying on the floor bleeding out.

Of course theres a chance we dont know the full story from the brief article, but with the few facts there I think that if any blame can be attributed then it should be with the pd and there lack of non lethal options, but even then they may not have changed the outcome.

Lets hope he has a speed recovery, gets whatever help he needs, and also the pd there look into if they can learn any lessons from a sad incident.

[PaulClift]

Reading your answer and a couple of others i find it interesting how fast westerners jump to personal insults. Hard life i guess.

I find it interesting that you can use such a sweeping statement, I'm a westerner, UK born and bred, I've not resorted to insults.

I'm also probably more liberal than 99% of this site, but I look at the facts presented objectively and still come to the conclusion the officer did not have any other option.

Everyones entitled to there point of view, but it grates on my nerves sometimes when people would just go 'omg nasteh cops', I dont doubt that most people who came to this view had already made there mind up when they saw the title of the thread.

[Mamont]

You should try actually reading the article. I referred to your words, that you'll do the same, not to the article. I personally participated in the capture of two armed deserters in 1999 near Stariy Sambor(under Lvov). None of them was killed. Now they enjoy 10 years of prison. From Uzhgorod tank batallion 5-6 years ago deserted 3 men armed with Ak's. They were captured and now are in prison as well. They were 18-19 years old. Not one of those surrenders, they all were disarmed by force. That's my small personal experience, though not the police work.


Idiocy at work, I guess.Please. In this thread the boy from the article is nearly transformed into brainless hulk-like coldblooded killer charging everyone with big deadly scissors.

[Laconian]

This is not a case of a subject in a standoff with police, where time to deploy less lethal weapons came into play.. The police had no perimeter, no way to contain the subject, he went from a room to a hallway to outside threatening people with two pairs of scissors.

NJ has not approved TASER for use by the cops there, ergo its not an option here. Hosing somebody down w/pepper spray is NOT an option when dealing with a deadly threat, plus its unreliable when used from a distance outdoors - it only works if you hit the eyes, nose, mouth anyway.

It would have been nice if they could isolate him, but they couldn't as he was a roving threat.

[PaulClift]

It would have been nice if they could isolate him, but they couldn't as he was a roving threat.

Dont want to seem like I'm trolling this thread *hides*

But this guys just hit the nail squarely on the head, the keyword here is threat.

[Aerosoul]

Yeah brilliant, spray a guy with pepper spray when he's holding a sharp object and threatened to use it. People don't get less docile when they're sprayed, someone that is already running around as a threat would likely just start swinging since he wouldn't be able to see. Real good idea, idiots.

Age is irrelevant.

[CPL Trevoga]

From legal point of view they clean, but I think maybe, just maybe, they should have used better judgment knowing they are responding to a situation at a children mental institution.

[Aerosoul]

From legal point of view they clean, but I think maybe, just maybe, they should have used better judgment knowing they are responding to a situation at a children mental institution.
Better judgment meaning what?

EDIT:
And this whole mental institution thing is being misinterpreted. It's a private school for kids with behavioral and learning disorders. I went to a boarding school just like that, not everyone is a schizo, uncontrollable loony. I think that aspect is being overplayed here.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Read what I posted on the previous page.

[CPL Trevoga]

Better judgment meaning what?

Meaning they shouldn't have blasted away a retarded kid.

[Aerosoul]

Min - see my edit.

Trevoga - You say the police should have used better judgment, but you haven't said what that better judgment would be. That was my question.

[Hollis]

First of all the Shoot, let's face it anytime when a 15 year gets shot it is not the makings of good news. What if stuff is pure hind sight or armchair quarterbacking.

Cops like the idea of being able to come home and enjoy their families and living, and all the stuff everyone else likes to do. Being a dead/wounded cop is not a option they would like.

I think PrivatePyle pretty much summed it up, there was no other option. Until a inquiry says otherwise, why speculate. My guess is the Officer is not having a good time with the notion that he just killed someone, especially a Kid. I would not be surprise that he has replayed the events in his mind a million times, playing what if.

Not all tragic events are preventable after a certain point and definately not after it has "gone down".

[CPL Trevoga]

Min - see my edit.

Trevoga - You say the police should have used better judgment, but you haven't said what that better judgment would be. That was my question.

They should have pepper spray him and beat the **** out of him with nightsticks.

[Miles.]

The police officers did the best they could, considering the circumstances.


15 is old enough to get a life sentence for a lethal wrestling move...15 ought to be old enough to be shot when you are threatening people's lives.

[Aerosoul]

The guy wasn't just standing around with a pair of scissors. He lunged at an officer with the scissors, which may as well have been a knife. It was only then, that shots were fired.

The police didn't do anything wrong. The 15-year-old did.

[Miles.]

They should have pepper spray him and beat the **** out of him with nightsticks.

Brilliant. You go first, tough guy.


Me? I would like to be able to come home without a pair of scissors jammed through my neck or abdomen.

[CPL Trevoga]

The guy wasn't just standing around with a pair of scissors. He lunged at an officer with the scissors, which may as hell have been a knife. It was only then, that shots were fired.

The police didn't do anything wrong. The 15-year-old did.

The kid was a retard. A cop on the beat who can not take down 15 year old retard should think about switching to parking violations unit.


Brilliant. You go first, tough guy.
Me? I would like to be able to come home without a pair of scissors jammed through my neck or abdomen.

Ah come on man. Stop being so melodramatic.

[Aerosoul]

You've just shown your ignorance. I'm done discussing this. Get a clue.

[California Joe]

I would have shot him, given what I read in that article.

[theholeinthedonut]

We guy's on mpnet are lucky bastards.......we have in our midst a bunch of hypertrained-top commando-armchair-genius-computerscreen-LEO's, they never f*** up, they never hurt the innocent, they only shoot the evil vilains, they're always right and they always have the right answer!! Why? because they sit all day long behind their screen and the only risk they run is getting arthritis into their fingers from punching the keyboard!

Get real boys we don't have enough information about what happened to come to any conclusion. Could have been a bad f*** up as well as it could have been a case of legitimate self-defense. We just don't know, none of us was there and I guess 99.99% of us never had to make the call and never will have to. So why don't we stop mast****ing and get back to the issue if the HK 416 is better then the M4.

[California Joe]

I almost shot a full length mirror once while investigating a B&E because I came around a corner and saw me pointing a gun at me.

[Buckeye67]

I referred to your words, that you'll do the same, not to the article. I personally participated in the capture of two armed deserters in 1999 near Stariy Sambor(under Lvov). None of them was killed. Now they enjoy 10 years of prison. From Uzhgorod tank batallion 5-6 years ago deserted 3 men armed with Ak's. They were captured and now are in prison as well. They were 18-19 years old. Not one of those surrenders, they all were disarmed by force. That's my small personal experience, though not the police work.

I've arrested people armed with knives as well as firearms, none of which resorted to deadly force. The difference being that none of them were trying to shoot and/or stab me at the time. So your "point" means ****-all in the context of this article.


Please. In this thread the boy from the article is nearly transformed into brainless hulk-like coldblooded killer charging everyone with big deadly scissors.

Please. In this thread the person who was trying to stab, if not kill, a police officer (who was at the scene attempting to protect the lives of numerous innocent people that had been previously threatened by the same armed subject) is nearly transformed into a benign, peaceful (albeit misunderstood) child who was simply strolling down the street innocently until those evil police murdered him in cold blood and/or killed him due to their lack of intelligence and/or ninja-skills.

[Aerosoul]

I almost shot a full length mirror once while investigating a B&E because I came around a corner and saw me pointing a gun at me.
I came home from a deployment with the unit one time and shot my bedroom mirror. The wife came in, looked at me, but didn't say a word. Sweetheart, she is.

[theholeinthedonut]

A friend of mine once shot his own tv-set........

[CPL Trevoga]

"The incident, which was criticized by the mother of a teen shot dead by police under similar circumstances last year, occurred about 4 p.m. at the Glenolden Lane school."

Does it say that similar incident happened year prior?
Looks like local cops go to that school for annual "Shoot a retard day."

[Aerosoul]

"The incident, which was criticized by the mother of a teen shot dead by police under similar circumstances last year, occurred about 4 p.m. at the Glenolden Lane school."

Does it say that similar incident happened year prior?
Looks like local cops go to that school for annual "Shoot a retard day."

Two different schools. This thread is about an incident at Garfield Park Academy, not Glenolden Lane School.

Nice try. Retard.

[TallGuy]

I don't know, I guess the officer could have called for back up. Here the cops deal with armed(stabbing weapons) psychos all the time, and our cops are unarmed. They only have pepper spray and batons. The armed police is only used when a firearm is involved.

[California Joe]

Yeah, how do you know he wasn't some giant baby Huey type kid with that special super retard strength.

[Hollis]

"The incident, which was criticized by the mother of a teen shot dead by police under similar circumstances last year, occurred about 4 p.m. at the Glenolden Lane school."

Does it say that similar incident happened year prior?
Looks like local cops go to that school for annual "Shoot a retard day."


I am amazed you have not offered up, that if the cop was really trained he could have shot the scissors out of the 15 year old hands with out hurting the kid. While the kid was stunned at the excellent shooting, had the kid cuffed and packaged for transport.

[Aerosoul]

I don't know, I guess the officer could have called for back up. Here the cops deal with armed(stabbing weapons) psychos all the time, and our cops are unarmed. They only have pepper spray and batons. The armed police is only used when a firearm is involved.

Did you read the article?
The kid lunged at him, he didn't have time to call for backup.

[California Joe]

To paraphrase Lenny from Of Mice and Men....

"I want to stab the policeman George, I will stab him and stab him, OK George"

[Aerosoul]

To paraphrase Lenny from Of Mice and Men....

"I want to stab the policeman George, I will stab him and stab him, OK George"

That was a sad movie.

[Miles.]

"The incident, which was criticized by the mother of a teen shot dead by police under similar circumstances last year, occurred about 4 p.m. at the Glenolden Lane school."

Does it say that similar incident happened year prior?
Looks like local cops go to that school for annual "Shoot a retard day."


Emotional and behavioral problems do not constitute mental retardation.

[Aerosoul]

Emotional and behavioral problems do not constitute mental retardation.
I'm not sure people care to understand that in this thread.

[mudbunny]

To paraphrase Lenny from Of Mice and Men....

"I want to stab the policeman George, I will stab him and stab him, OK George"

To paraphrase the guy from "Flowers For Algernon"........
"Where did that little f-ing rat go? He stole my cheese, I'm going to bite his head off!"

[CPL Trevoga]

I am amazed you have not offered up, that if the cop was really trained he could have shot the scissors out of the 15 year old hands with out hurting the kid. While the kid was stunned at the excellent shooting, had the kid cuffed and packaged for transport.

Hollis, come on man, be serious. I've got maced once, it's pretty good stuff. People here go on extraordinary lengths to find excuses for obvious f*ckup by the local cops.


Two different schools. This thread is about an incident at Garfield Park Academy, not Glenolden Lane School.
Nice try. Retard.

So it makes it better, that is a different school? Sounds like parking unit is crying for these guys.

[Miles.]

I'm not sure people care to understand that in this thread.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/1236/dscf1283cz9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


CPL Trevoga needs to go "retard" hunting.

[TallGuy]

Did you read the article?
The kid lunged at him, he didn't have time to call for backup.
Well, like I said, I don't know. All I know is, that this happens all the time here and nobody has been shot.

[Hollis]

Hollis, come on man, be serious. I've got maced once, it's pretty good stuff. People here go on extraordinary lengths to find excuses for obvious f*ckup by the local cops.



So it makes it better, that is a different school? Sounds like parking unit is crying for these guys.


One could say, your experience with being mace, not liking cops is motivating your opinion. I don't expect cops to be martyrs. I still work, occasion, for a agency. I have to many friends in LE. I don't think of them as the "bad guys". Yes some screw up.

As I mentioned early, unless a inquiry finds the facts differently, the officer did what he had to do considering the how the article was written.


BTW mace under certain situations and certain people does not always work. It can actually exacerbate the conflict.

[Buckeye67]

Well, like I said, I don't know. All I know is, that this happens all the time here and nobody has been shot.

So no police officers in Iceland have ever shot someone who was trying to stab them?

[CPL Trevoga]

CPL Trevoga needs to go "retard" hunting.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/1236/dscf1283cz9.jpg

What is this Miles? Your picture from www.fags.com?

[SOG]

well on that tv show cops they always one up the bad guy. if the bad guy uses their fist, they pull batons. if he has any hand weapon, they pull guns.

you run at a guy pointing a gun at you, what the **** do you expect? more warnings? your bitch ass gonna get shot.

look i have a gun pointed at you. you charge me with a blade? goodbye. its not like they had time to holster guns and pull batons in the time he lunged. they were guns on and responded with what they were holding when he attacked them.

maybe they could have talked to him and waited for more backup etc. maybe he could have ran off and grabbed a smaller child or woman as hostage. the cops more than likely followed their SOP.

[TallGuy]

So no police officers in Iceland have ever shot someone who was trying to stab them?
That is correct.

[welshmann]

well on that tv show cops they always one up the bad guy. if the bad guy uses their fist, they pull batons. if he has any hand weapon, they pull guns.

you run at a guy pointing a gun at you, what the **** do you expect? more warnings? your bitch ass gonna get shot.

look i have a gun pointed at you. you charge me with a blade? goodbye.

Rember m8,a bloody 15 year old kid got killed here,my wife deals with this stuff daily from people who got massive problems,u cant turn ure back or keep your eyes off them,ive seen my wife come home with black eyes etc,and ive had to walk through town with her like this.A very ****ing sad story,but im with the cops on this 1

[Hollis]

That is correct.


Probably has more to do with different countries with different cultural aspects. I think that say a lot for Iceland. Also the US has over 300 Million people.

[CPL Trevoga]

One could say, your experience with being mace, not liking cops is motivating your opinion. I don't expect cops to be martyrs. I still work, occasion, for a agency. I have to many friends in LE. I don't think of them as the "bad guys". Yes some screw up.

As I mentioned early, unless a inquiry finds the facts differently, the officer did what he had to do considering the how the article was written.

BTW mace under certain situations and certain people does not always work. It can actually exacerbate the conflict.

No, a punkass gangsta maced me. My high school was pretty rough. A lot of my old Marine buddies are in law enforcement just to clarify. You're right, 99% cops are professional bunch.

[PaulClift]

The armed police is only used when a firearm is involved.

Armed response in the UK will get called to incidents involving knives, I remember them shooting a guy who had a knife to the throat of a supermarket manager, and rightly so.

[TallGuy]

Armed response in the UK will get called to incidents involving knives, I remember them shooting a guy who had a knife to the throat of a supermarket manager, and rightly so.
Well, sometimes unarmed SWAT cops are sent as back up during high-risk situations. Our SWAT team has never fired a shot during their operations, something which they're very proud of.

[VooDooTiger]

The police should always use deadly force as a last resort. As someone going into a career in law enforcement, I'm sincerely hoping I never fire my gun on duty.

That said, none of us were there and so none of us can give a perfectly legitimate opinion as to whether or not it was a good or bad shoot.

Now if, as it sounds, the cop arrived and confronted the kid, and the kid lunged at the police offiecr, I don't seem him having any other choice. People have said use OC on him, taze him, use your baton, etc. Remember though, the cop probably only had time to draw one weapon. I wouldn't bet my life or safety on pepperspray putting down an aggressive, armed suspect with a mental disorder. If it fails, they're on you, and you have no weapon. I hope I don't wind up in the same situation one day.

[Laconian]

I almost shot a full length mirror once while investigating a B&E because I came around a corner and saw me pointing a gun at me.

BTDT. As a rookie fresh off FTO, I also called out a K9, set up a perimeter with half the district, tied up units and radio traffic for about half an hour on a B&E in progress that turned out to be a mannequin in a display window on a midnight tour. Funny now, but I caught an A$$ chewing from the sgt.

On subject> The US Supreme Court in Graham vs. Connor (1989)stated that the use of force was to be "Based on the totality of the circumstances...the reasonableness of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, rather than the 20/20 vision of hindsight...As in other Fourth Amendment (note: police use of force is seen as a 4th Amendment issue by the courts) contexts, however, the reasonableness inquiry in an excessive force case is an objective one: the question is whether the officer's actions are objectively reasonable in light of the facts and circumstances confronting them, without regard to underlying intent or motivation.
...
Not every push or shove, even if it may later seem unnecessary in the peace of a judge's chambers, violates the Fourth Amendment. The caluculus of reasonableness must embody allowance for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split-second judgements - in circumstances that are tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving - about the amount of force that is necessary in a particular situation."

In Tennessee v. Garner (1985) the USSC said;
"Where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force. Thus, if the suspect threatens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent escape, and if, where feasible, some warning has been given."

This is the current case law that will judge the actions of the officer. Based on what is in the law and the story, his actions appear to be both reasonable and justified.

[Chounch McGavin]

People who don't deserve to get shot, die
People who don't deserve to get tasered, do
Never ending tale of severely wrongful judgement facilitated by police personnel

The world is getting more hectic each and every day. Being in the law enforcement application process myself, this sickens me.. He "lunged" at the officer with scissors - give me a break. I could write about ten effective, non-lethal maneuvers that would leave the kid incapacitated without discharging a firearm

Poor kid, rip

[Hydro]

Being in the law enforcement application process myself

Oh thank God for that. I mean, we've only had two, no, three actual cops on this thread comment and give their real life experience in similar situations.



I could write about ten effective, non-lethal maneuvers that would leave the kid incapacitated without discharging a firearm



You don't know how it played out. You don't know what the situation on the ground was. You can't say that x, y, and possibly z would've solved the situation better.


The policeman, a trained officer made a call based on his perception of the situation, and lacking any other response that would adequately end the threat to the public and himself, chose to use his firearm. I can live with that. and it appears so can the US legal system.

[Chounch McGavin]

Read the story again you insolent. It took place in an open, grassy area with clear visibility infront of the school. The officers were probably/around ten thru fifteen feet infront of the 15 year-old kid when he made a physical 'jooking' gesture in which the cop fired his weapon. The "situation" is always the same; I don't need your optimistic sarcasm justifying the killing of a young man

And by the way, you are aware of an innovational piece of matter called a taser gun, correct?

[Laconian]

People who don't deserve to get shot, die
People who don't deserve to get tasered, do
Never ending tale of severely wrongful judgement facilitated by police personnel

The world is getting more hectic each and every day. Being in the law enforcement application process myself, this sickens me.. He "lunged" at the officer with scissors - give me a break. I could write about ten effective, non-lethal maneuvers that would leave the kid incapacitated without discharging a firearm

Poor kid, rip

Do everybody on the street a favor there Sifu and hurry up and get hired so you can teach the madmonkeyninjachinesekungfudeathtouch to all of us poor trigger happy slobs and so nobody ever has a bad day.

RIP? The kid is in critical, but stable condition. Maybe you know a better way to shoot too.

[California Joe]

Nobody has said that killing a kid is a good idea. We, as usual, are monday morning quarterbacking the cops. Chounch, it says your location is L.A. and your age is 20. How much street time do you have in a "law enforcement application process"? Because you certainly don't act like a BTDT cop....I'm thinking that if you're an L.A. street cop you'll be worried about going before a shooting board before too long, then you can tell us what it feels like. The man on scene, at the time, made the decision to drop the hammer on that kid, he has to live with it and the ramifications. I don't really know what happened because I wasn't there but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until it's proven otherwise.

[Hydro]

Read the story again you insolent. It took place in an open, grassy area with clear visibility infront of the school. The officers were probably/around ten thru fifteen feet infront of the 15 year-old kid when he made a physical 'jooking' gesture in which the cop fired his weapon. The "situation" is always the same; I don't need your optimistic sarcasm justifying the killing of a young man

And by the way, you are aware of an innovational piece of matter called a taser gun, correct?



I have just highlighted certain parts. Everyone can make their own decisions as to whether this fellow actually knows what the hell he is talking about.

[Chounch McGavin]

You're so clever it hurts.

[SOG]

Rember m8,a bloody 15 year old kid got killed here,my wife deals with this stuff daily from people who got massive problems,u cant turn ure back or keep your eyes off them,ive seen my wife come home with black eyes etc,and ive had to walk through town with her like this.A very ****ing sad story,but im with the cops on this 1

i agree with you. both my mom and her best friend are both teachers for the mentally disturbed in city schools. they lash out at everyone and anyone and many constantly bring all sorts of illegal weapons to school. (knives, screw drivers, razors etc.) a kid punched my mom one time leaving a nasty bruise on her stomach since he was angry she made him stay after school. he got saturday suspension for doing it. needless to say i was very tempted to go kick his ass but my mom persisted she would get in major trouble if i did something like that. thankfully she transfered to work with grade school mental cases instead of high school nutjobs.

that cant be fun walking around with your wife with a black eye. people cast negative assumptions very fast.

these kids can be very dangerous and because of their mental condition they tend to focus on harming others alot and many practice doing so. the things they draw in art class are incredibly violent in a very unhealthy way. its sad what happened but that is life. maybe in some magical world everyone would be armed with phasers set to stun. until then...

[JJC]

Read the story again you insolent. It took place in an open, grassy area with clear visibility infront of the school. The officers were probably/around ten thru fifteen feet infront of the 15 year-old kid when he made a physical 'jooking' gesture in which the cop fired his weapon. The "situation" is always the same; I don't need your optimistic sarcasm justifying the killing of a young man

And by the way, you are aware of an innovational piece of matter called a taser gun, correct?

You are judging police tactics based on an article. You don't know the situation and you don't know what cops face day to day.

Eever heard of the 21 foot rule? This is a common rule taught to police officers when faced with edged weapon threats. The rule states that when an officer is faced with an edged weapon threat under 21 feet, he/she will not have reaction time to react with a weapon. This clip clearly demonstrates 21 foot rule and the threat of edged weapons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dUSqE9TDhg

You've seen too many "COPS" and other shows to believe that pepper sprays, tasers, or batons can substitue a lethal defense weapon in a situation where an officer's life is in danger. Try to search online of a case where an officer relied on his taser to protect his life instead of his gun: that officer ended up is six feet under.

I was mugged once by 7 teens and had to face a box cutter. All the defense training courses that I took in the past went down the drain because on the street you react differently. I was lucky that only my left arm/ elbow was sliced and diced like an onion. I now understand how leathal a simple sharpened screw can be to a person let alone scissors.

[Warlord]

The police is getting more and more violent each day. they should stop watching south park, and the pointless deaths would stop. Police should use deadly force for when its really needed

Now southpark is to blame?

I just spent this whole Friday watching my South park collection.

[nimer bortuqaal]

The only person to blame in this whole incident is the 15 year old. No one made him grab scissors and try to attack an LEO. This whole event started with him. Personal responsibilty.

[PeoplesPoster]

So do all you people to go on about how the police had no choice but to shoot the kid support violent reactions by the authority in cases such as Tiananmen Square and the various Korean pro-democracy rally massacres? I mean you can easily say that those demonstrators deserved to be shot and killed for threatening the law enforcment officers and soldiers put there to disperse the crowd.

It's a matter of measured response. You don't shoot someone with a gun for trying to come at you with scissors, wack them with your baton. It's like sending tanks after protestors.

[Hydro]

So do all you people to go on about how the police had no choice but to shoot the kid support violent reactions by the authority in cases such as Tiananmen Square and the various Korean pro-democracy rally massacres? I mean you can easily say that those demonstrators deserved to be shot and killed for threatening the law enforcment officers and soldiers put there to disperse the crowd.

It's a matter of measured response. You don't shoot someone with a gun for trying to come at you with scissors, wack them with your baton. It's like sending tanks after protestors.



No, it's nothing like sending tanks after protestors, you prat.

Some woman waving a placard and wearing fuzzy knitwear is not an emotionally unhinged teenager coming at you with a pair of scissors in each hand intending to lacerate your face.

[WarriorMonk]

So do all you people to go on about how the police had no choice but to shoot the kid support violent reactions by the authority in cases such as Tiananmen Square and the various Korean pro-democracy rally massacres? I mean you can easily say that those demonstrators deserved to be shot and killed for threatening the law enforcment officers and soldiers put there to disperse the crowd.

It's a matter of measured response. You don't shoot someone with a gun for trying to come at you with scissors, wack them with your baton. It's like sending tanks after protestors.

Measured response goes out of the window when someone is REALLY charging at you with an intent to kill. And you can kill someone with a baton if you know how as well.

[Midav]

Nobody has said that killing a kid is a good idea. We, as usual, are monday morning quarterbacking the cops. Chounch, it says your location is L.A. and your age is 20. How much street time do you have in a "law enforcement application process"? Because you certainly don't act like a BTDT cop....I'm thinking that if you're an L.A. street cop you'll be worried about going before a shooting board before too long, then you can tell us what it feels like. The man on scene, at the time, made the decision to drop the hammer on that kid, he has to live with it and the ramifications. I don't really know what happened because I wasn't there but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until it's proven otherwise.

Thank you!!!

The cop had every right to do what he did. I believe police guidelines (correct me if i'm wrong) is to use deadly force at anyone lunging at you with a weapon from a certain distance?

[Christophe]

I will not comment on the LEO´s actions; I wasn´t there.

Only once have I been involved with a deranged kid (long mental history)wielding a knife.
He sorta barricaded himself in the house while his parents ran out the front door and called us.
Upon request of the parents and ok from a superviser we took the kid out without anybody being injured. How? With four of us of which two carried riot shields. We entered the house, ran him over and pinned him to the floor with our shields and weight while the two other officers cuffed hands and legs.
In MY situation that worked just because we carry these shields full time.

Regarding sprays: About a month ago we (my partner and me) had to solve a family dispute. One of the people there was 1/ mentally ill and 2/ black belt in some martial art.
He attacked us (kicks and punches) and I ended up emptying my spray in his face.
Result: My vest was pierced ( corner of a clothesdryer I flew into),
me and my partner with several bruises and a suspect being subdued by 6 cops.
My spray had NO effect whatsoever on the guy. Don´t ever see a spray as a less lethal wonder weapon. It doesn´t always work.

No two calls are the same.

Just my 2c.

[Calanen]

They should have pepper spray him and beat the **** out of him with nightsticks.

And the first cop takes a forced pair of scissors into his carotid artery, and thats just the price of doing business?

The use of tasers more often can prevent the deaths of the mentally ill, but maybe no one had a taser handy. The cops are not social workers, they are police. And they should not be expected to sacrifice their lives in the line of duty because the general public have got some wacko ideas about how the use of force should be applied which puts them at unnecessary risk.

You have seconds to make decisions, not fire warning shots, or shoot people in the big toe. And if you make the wrong decision, you are dead. If there is a vote, my vote is the guy with the scissors dies, not the cop.

[CPL Trevoga]

And the first cop takes a forced pair of scissors into his carotid artery, and thats just the price of doing business?

The use of tasers more often can prevent the deaths of the mentally ill, but maybe no one had a taser handy. The cops are not social workers, they are police. And they should not be expected to sacrifice their lives in the line of duty because the general public have got some wacko ideas about how the use of force should be applied which puts them at unnecessary risk.

You have seconds to make decisions, not fire warning shots, or shoot people in the big toe. And if you make the wrong decision, you are dead. If there is a vote, my vote is the guy with the scissors dies, not the cop.

Man, you're so melodramatic with that carotid artery thing. Obviously were are Monday morning quarterbacking the cops here. But you know what, I've been around the block a time or who. I've see a thing or two. In my judgment, in this particular situation, these cops should be transfered to parking violation division. That's way it's safer for retarded kids and these cops don't have to face carotid artery puncture from 15 years old mentally ill child. Nothing really controversial here. Here a pict of typical 15 year old retard, so you know how they look like. http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/1085544479048707415NIwvgr


P.S. Thank God (Sweet Jesus) we have cops like Christophe here.

[Midav]

Realistic tactics for edged weapons (http://www.policeone.com/writers/columnists/marksman/articles/126802/)

About the Author

Michael T. Rayburn is a 27-year veteran of law enforcement and is currently an adjunct instructor for the Smith & Wesson Academy.
He may be reached at www.pointshooting.org

[Calanen]

Man, you're so melodramatic with that carotid artery thing. Obviously were are Monday morning quarterbacking the cops here. But you know what, I've been around the block a time or who


Where's the melodrama? Scissors are just a pair of knives joined with a scew, people die from being stabbed with knives, and broken glass. All the time. People can also die or be brain damaged with one punch. Fights are not like the movies, they are swift and brutal and last only a few seconds normally. In that time, a piece of glass, scissors, a blade can end the officers life.

[Laconian]

But you know what, I've been around the block a time or who. I've see a thing or two. In my judgment, in this particular situation, these cops should be transfered to parking violation division. That's way it's safer for retarded kids and these cops don't have to face carotid artery puncture from 15 years old mentally ill child.


P.S. Thank God (Sweet Jesus) we have cops like Christophe here.

Sorry, but your judgment/opinion is trumped by the US Supreme Court.

It is great that Christophe's incident worked out well, but it is completely different than this one. You are comparing a barricaded individual (which allowed the officers to use time and distance and several attempts at control) with an active, armed subject that had freedom of movement and was actively displaying intent to harm.

[redhawk_six]

A lot of people here say the officer should've used a taser. But if you read the article, NJ has not approved the use of tasers.

I believe the officer did what he had to do. It's horrible, but when faced with an unstable armed subject, regardless of their age, you dont have many options. You cant get close, or you'll be stabbed. If they advance on you and wont back down, theres only so much an officer can do.

[K3rmit]

Agree with red here.

No taser, no other means of defense, the dudes going for a dirt nap - Happily for him they didn't empty the mag into him as he was still upright.

[JJC]

There was a case years ago when several officers responed in my erea to an EDP with a hammer. I think there were about 5 officers and they opened fire killing him when he started swinging the hammer at them. People started having protests and giving their own retarted advise on what the poilce should have done.

I think every person should be forced to do a week long ride a long with their local cops to experience the real world. I remember mine.......

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Or how about getting the police to spend a week in a mental institution as an orderly. Mental health institution's have developed tried and test procedures in dealing with people having a episode.

Maybe the police officer had now choice. I'm just sick of police and society in general in taking the easy way out when dealing with people who suffer mental illness.

[JJC]

A mental insitution is a controlled environment, just like a prison where they may have special teams with gear to control a person with a knife. In an open environment like what cops face it's different. Here when the NYPD deals with psychos, they call in the ESU who are trained to deal with them, but it's not a magic bullet. We can't just blame the cops without knowing all of the facts. Sometimes even a mental health professional can't control a psychos. Maybe there was no chance for the cops to talk to him, or to try non lethal approach. I'm sure the officer is not enjoying what he had to do.

[GromGrad]

If you are a grown man and you are afraid of a 15 year old with scissors, you are a coward and should not have a badge, plain and simple. I was stabbed with scissors in middle school, i went to the hospital, recovered, here i am. A 19 year veteran this cop is and he reacts like this? Must be from the suburbs, no NYPD cop would do this.

*edit* Just called my best friend about this who has been in the NYPD for 6 years now.

His reaction: "That cop is a pussy."

[GromGrad]

There was a case years ago when several officers responed in my erea to an EDP with a hammer. I think there were about 5 officers and they opened fire killing him when he started swinging the hammer at them. People started having protests and giving their own retarted advise on what the poilce should have done.

I think every person should be forced to do a week long ride a long with their local cops to experience the real world. I remember mine.......

Yeah that it was a crazy hasidic jew, sad story. His family sued and won If i recall correctly.

[~center~]

Chounch, it says your location is L.A. and your age is 20. How much street time do you have in a "law enforcement application process"? Because you certainly don't act like a BTDT cop....I'm thinking that if you're an L.A. street cop you'll be worried about going before a shooting board before too long, then you can tell us what it feels like.

LOL, well said. CJ you’re giving this guy way too much credit though. He's not a police officer, not even an armed private security guard (gotta be 21 in CA for that too).

And the rest of you idiots (you know who you are) Laconian has given this thread more intelligent BTDT responses than should even be necessary.

Having said that; Most of you know my general background and I'm pretty sure, had I been there, he would have gotten a controlled pair in his 10-96 @ss.
Does it suck? Yea it does, next time put down the f-ing pointy object of death.

[Namus]

Similar case in Belorussia.

http://www.youtube.com/v/-5yNyJyb71k

[Durandal]

A lot of opinions thrown around on both sides here.

A lot of opinions from people that are not cops and definitely were not there when it happened and to make the call.

A lot of assumptions to on the level of threat.

A lot of assumptions, to boot, on the level of training and what that reflects.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

L
Does it suck? Yea it does, next time put down the f-ing pointy object of death.

For the last ****ing time. Most people who suffer mental illness can not fathom the principle of right and wrong. And the more a person commands them to do something especially if it's perceived by the person suffering mental illness to be in a threatening manner they will act in a way that to us seems stupid and life threatening but to them to be the "right" thing to do.

Any police officer can argue any point he wants. I will argue until I'm black and blue that this shooting was uncalled for. I have lived with family members who suffer from mental illness. I have volunteered to help people who suffer from mental illness. So if your a cop bad luck.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

A lot of opinions thrown around on both sides here.

A lot of opinions from people that are not cops and definitely were not there when it happened and to make the call.

A lot of assumptions to on the level of threat.

A lot of assumptions, to boot, on the level of training and what that reflects.

Sorry man. I have to say that expecting a mental illness sufferer to react in the same way as you or I is stupid. Patience is the key.

[~center~]

So if your a cop bad luck.

It would seem your point is moot from just this quote alone. Obviously it is the mental case who has the bad luck. Ok, maybe your point isn't moot but you have to look at both sides of the coin don't you think?

[Mr.K]

How about shooting the person in the leg, not in the chest?

[Durandal]

Sorry man. I have to say that expecting a mental illness sufferer to react in the same way as you or I is stupid. Patience is the key.

Min...come on now.

My parents...their neighbor's grandson butchered his older brother and then washed off in the local fountain on the square. Pretty big news around here, though probably not nationally.

Mental illness or not...things can suck.

The kid ain't dead and 90 rounds were not fired because someone was holding a sandwich.

All in all things COULD have been worse and there would have been a dead kid and a very sad cop.

I do not think your judgement is fair at all in this case.

Sometimes its better to NOT try to lay blame.

[Durandal]

How about shooting the person in the leg, not in the chest?

Can you do that?

Or even claim to think you could even remember to do it in a situation like this?

Especially after being taught to do it reflexively in a tense situation, adrenaline pumping, possibly after running so the heart is going and breathing is a bit quicker?

You have to be kidding me.

This is NOT Hollywood.

[usm2b]

How about shooting the person in the leg, not in the chest?

No, he should have just shot the scissors out of the kids hand.

[CPL Trevoga]

Sorry, but your judgment/opinion is trumped by the US Supreme Court.

It is great that Christophe's incident worked out well, but it is completely different than this one. You are comparing a barricaded individual (which allowed the officers to use time and distance and several attempts at control) with an active, armed subject that had freedom of movement and was actively displaying intent to harm.

Laconian, you're very smart man and you're 100% correct from the law perspective. I did not say those cops are guilty of breaking any laws. They only guilty of being a "pussies".

[Namus]

WTF does it mean?

[k98_man]

allegedly threatened a police officer with scissors outside a private school for children with emotional or behavioral disorders


My first question is how they'd allow him to be roaming about if he is at a school for children with emotional or behavioral disorders? Also, if you are right about them not even wanting to get involved in taking him down without a gun why not shoot him in the legs?

I guess we'll never know what we'd do in the situation unless we were in the situation.

[redhawk_six]

For the last ****ing time. Most people who suffer mental illness can not fathom the principle of right and wrong. And the more a person commands them to do something especially if it's perceived by the person suffering mental illness to be in a threatening manner they will act in a way that to us seems stupid and life threatening but to them to be the "right" thing to do.

Any police officer can argue any point he wants. I will argue until I'm black and blue that this shooting was uncalled for. I have lived with family members who suffer from mental illness. I have volunteered to help people who suffer from mental illness. So if your a cop bad luck.

So what the hell was the cop supposed to do when this kid lunged at him? Let the kid stab him to death because he doesnt know its wrong?

Sorry, but I say bull.

This cop's life was in danger. He only had seconds to react, and he reacted with the only option he had. Sorry if that offends your sensablities, but that's how it works when someone charges a cop with a weapon, mentally handicapped or not. The officer does NOT lose his right to defend himself just because the kid is mentally handicapped.

Everyone here saying he's a pussy, have you ever been in this situation? Are you cops? Do you risk your life to protect people you've never even meet, people who insult you and judge you for every little thing you do? No? Then what right do you have to call anyone faced with someone trying to kill them a pussy?

[Namus]

Trained cop could disarm that kid barehandedly without any damage for him or self. Too bad most cops know only how to press the trigger.

[redhawk_six]

Trained cop could disarm that kid barehandedly without any damage for him or self. Too bad most cops know only how to press the trigger.

You've never been a cop have you?
A single cop could've never taken that kid down barehanded without someone getting seriously hurt. I dont know where you live, but this is the real world, not hollywood.

[Namus]

I know a story when one crazy nerd attack trained guy with knife. He was instantly pinned down and disarmed without any damage to him or that guy. Because that guy was in martial arts.

[redhawk_six]

I know a story when one crazy nerd attack trained guy with knife. He was instantly pinned down and disarmed without any damage to him or that guy. Because that guy was in martial arts.

A story? I'm not going to touch that other to say you need to get a little more in touch with the real world.

This wasnt a 'crazy nerd' vs. 'martial arts guy'. This was a mentally unstable, angry 15 year old vs a police officer. Officers cannot afford to get close to knife (or scissor) weilding suspects, because too often it ends up the officer dead or seriously injured.

[~center~]

Trained cop could disarm that kid barehandedly without any damage for him or self. Too bad most cops know only how to press the trigger.

Wonderful observation. :roll:

First off you MUST know MOST cops, at least 51% of them across the country right?! Or you wouldn't have written something so asinine. You and I should hook up; You can school me on a thing or two about law enforcement or ANY tactical application for that matter.

I've had LARGE amounts of martial arts training (I am an instructor after-all) and that's not how a force continuum works. Would it have been possible to disarm him using open-hand techniques? Well yes, but not necessarily practical.

Oh yea... your an @sshat.

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album108/aam.jpg

[martinexsquaddie]

a taser or a baton round is what you'd like to use in this situation or even a baton if you know what your doing (but that takes skill training and confidence fine if your a 20 something martial arts freak but most cops arn't)
having taken down a drunk with a knife with the old SLR butt rest of his injurys happened while we restrained your him your honour not that we kicked him till he stopped struggling honest

[theholeinthedonut]

Sometimes I got the feeling that a good part of the members here are 15 yrs old with a behaviour disorder...............................

[Mr.K]

Can you do that?

Or even claim to think you could even remember to do it in a situation like this?

Especially after being taught to do it reflexively in a tense situation, adrenaline pumping, possibly after running so the heart is going and breathing is a bit quicker?

You have to be kidding me.

This is NOT Hollywood.

Oh here we go, the "poor overstressed cop" argument. You're gonna tell me that a professional cannot aim for lower body instead of chest?
Cops here are instructed to shoot in non vital areas.

Sometimes I got the feeling that a good part of the members here are 15 yrs old with a behaviour disorder...............................

Yeah let shoot them before they attack cops! /sarcasm

[Hollis]

Oh here we go, the "poor overstressed cop" argument. You're gonna tell me that a professional cannot aim for lower body instead of chest?
Cops here are instructed to shoot in non vital areas.


Another completely asinine remark. ever heard of the femoral artery? At lease you did not say, "why did he not just shoot the scissors out of the kids hand?" I gather you do not shoot.

It is amazing how ignorant of Law Enforcement many of these post are.

To learn, if your in the states, Most department as "ride along programs". You can arrange to go along with a officer during working hours. One of the best description of Officers are "roving secretaries". They are not Green Berets, they are not "operators", they are not warriors or combat infantry, or even ninja stealth fighters.

One of the biggest jobs they have is paper work. LE is not Hollywood Chase 'em, shoot 'em up, constant second by second edge of the seat thrill ride.

One old stat, the average police office will not fire his side arm in the line of duty ONCE during their whole career.

Some LEO are lucky to get one day on the range a year. Most, the pistol is just another part of the uniform. Many officers are over weight from being a secretary in a car during their shift.

I am not the greatest shot with a pistol, but I could probably out shoot most of them, simply because I shoot/practice more often.

So if you want to learn, go on a ride alone. If there are any wrong doing, the shooting investigation will find it.

[Dispatcher]

People who don't deserve to get shot, die
People who don't deserve to get tasered, do
Never ending tale of severely wrongful judgement facilitated by police personnel

The world is getting more hectic each and every day. Being in the law enforcement application process myself, this sickens me.. He "lunged" at the officer with scissors - give me a break. I could write about ten effective, non-lethal maneuvers that would leave the kid incapacitated without discharging a firearm

Poor kid, rip


Read the story again you insolent. It took place in an open, grassy area with clear visibility infront of the school. The officers were probably/around ten thru fifteen feet infront of the 15 year-old kid when he made a physical 'jooking' gesture in which the cop fired his weapon. The "situation" is always the same; I don't need your optimistic sarcasm justifying the killing of a young man

And by the way, you are aware of an innovational piece of matter called a taser gun, correct?




So do all you people to go on about how the police had no choice but to shoot the kid support violent reactions by the authority in cases such as Tiananmen Square and the various Korean pro-democracy rally massacres? I mean you can easily say that those demonstrators deserved to be shot and killed for threatening the law enforcment officers and soldiers put there to disperse the crowd.

It's a matter of measured response. You don't shoot someone with a gun for trying to come at you with scissors, wack them with your baton. It's like sending tanks after protestors.


If you are a grown man and you are afraid of a 15 year old with scissors, you are a coward and should not have a badge, plain and simple. I was stabbed with scissors in middle school, i went to the hospital, recovered, here i am. A 19 year veteran this cop is and he reacts like this? Must be from the suburbs, no NYPD cop would do this.

*edit* Just called my best friend about this who has been in the NYPD for 6 years now.

His reaction: "That cop is a pussy."


How about shooting the person in the leg, not in the chest?


Trained cop could disarm that kid barehandedly without any damage for him or self. Too bad most cops know only how to press the trigger.


I know a story when one crazy nerd attack trained guy with knife. He was instantly pinned down and disarmed without any damage to him or that guy. Because that guy was in martial arts.


As a LEO in one of the most liberal country's in the world, with very restrictive ROE towards suspects, i would like to say this; He would have gotten shot here too.

Pepperspray, batons, whatever, if you try to go hand-to-hand with a suspect with a knife/scissors/nailclippers; YOU WILL BLEED. Even a peppersprayed suspect will lunge out at you, even if his eyes are shut.

The guys i quoted above; :bash:, the lot of you.

[California Joe]

Hmmmmmm, as usual, all the actual cops or former cops have the same responses. We also happen to be older and a little more experienced in these matters than the average posters in these type of threads. "Cop shootings" threads may be the only threads on this board that attract more ridiculous responses than the OMFGDelta11111! threads. Everyone is an expert on law enforcement, stress shooting, martial arts, split second decision making and even how to tell exactly what happened in any situation we were not present at from a sh*tty news story. Rarely, if ever, is benefit of the doubt given the officer involved. That's a shame.

[Beowulf]

Hmmmmmm, as usual, all the actual cops or former cops have the same responses. We also happen to be older and a little more experienced in these matters than the average posters in these type of threads. "Cop shootings" threads may be the only threads on this board that attract more ridiculous responses than the OMFGDelta11111! threads. Everyone is an expert on law enforcement, stress shooting, martial arts, split second decision making and even how to tell exactly what happened in any situation we were not present at from a sh*tty news story. Rarely, if ever, is benefit of the doubt given the officer involved. That's a shame.

CJ is being cool, I'm gonna start shotgun infracting people for insults/profanity. Feel free to discuss whatever you want, but do it in a reasonable manner.

[Hollis]

Hmmmmmm, as usual, all the actual cops or former cops have the same responses. We also happen to be older and a little more experienced in these matters than the average posters in these type of threads. "Cop shootings" threads may be the only threads on this board that attract more ridiculous responses than the OMFGDelta11111! threads. Everyone is an expert on law enforcement, stress shooting, martial arts, split second decision making and even how to tell exactly what happened in any situation we were not present at from a sh*tty news story. Rarely, if ever, is benefit of the doubt given the officer involved. That's a shame.


I think some fail to realize that in most cases all shootings are bad, no officer goes to work with the intention of getting in a shooting. No department wants it. Just the volume of paper work, the interviews, the inquiries etc makes it the least desirable of events. To complicate it, the age of the person who is shot. I don't think any one is joyful that the kid got shot, I strongly believe the officer involve is wishing there were some other solution or he could have done something different. This whole event has to be a nightmare for all involved, the kid, the Officer, the department, those who have over sight of the department, the DA, etc. They all have months of work ahead of them before all of this is put to bed.

For the kid, I hope he recovers. I hope the officer recovers too.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Hmmmmmm, as usual, all the actual cops or former cops have the same responses. We also happen to be older and a little more experienced in these matters than the average posters in these type of threads. "Cop shootings" threads may be the only threads on this board that attract more ridiculous responses than the OMFGDelta11111! threads. Everyone is an expert on law enforcement, stress shooting, martial arts, split second decision making and even how to tell exactly what happened in any situation we were not present at from a sh*tty news story. Rarely, if ever, is benefit of the doubt given the officer involved. That's a shame.

Just so you know. I'm attacking the general apathy in society towards mental illness and basing my stance at the copper based on my personal experiences with relatives who are quite retarded and belong in one of those family dramas on cable about a family raising a "special" kid who ends up being the star quarterback against the odds.

[California Joe]

I know Min...

[Dispatcher]

Just so you know. I'm attacking the general apathy in society towards mental illness and basing my stance at the copper based on my personal experiences with relatives who are quite retarded and belong in one of those family dramas on cable about a family raising a "special" kid who ends up being the star quarterback against the odds.

Minardiau; Ive read your posts in this thread, and i understand what you are saying. In my country there are relativly good working rules for when police need to "handle" persons who are mentally challenged/retarded.

But; (and this is a big BUT) an officer always has the right/obligation to defend himself when he feels threatened!

Whether it is against a mentally ill/retarded person, or against someone who has taken drugs and doesnt know right from wrong anymore. Most officers are pretty good judges of character, and will if they suspect that the person in question isnt mentally stable, use a slightly different approach than normal. (such as a lot more patience...)

[redhawk_six]

Hmmmmmm, as usual, all the actual cops or former cops have the same responses. We also happen to be older and a little more experienced in these matters than the average posters in these type of threads. "Cop shootings" threads may be the only threads on this board that attract more ridiculous responses than the OMFGDelta11111! threads. Everyone is an expert on law enforcement, stress shooting, martial arts, split second decision making and even how to tell exactly what happened in any situation we were not present at from a sh*tty news story. Rarely, if ever, is benefit of the doubt given the officer involved. That's a shame.

Agreed 100%.

It's a real shame. These are people who put their life on the line, for very little pay, for us, no matter what we say about them. And despite all they do, and all their willing to do to protect lives, most people have very little respect for them. Everytime an incident like this occurs, people rush to crucify them, without even trying to understand what it's like to be in their shoes.

I have much respect for anyone who puts on that uniform each day. Sure, there might be some 'bad apples', but show me a job or place where there isnt.

What happened here is tragic, but not unjustified. Until you've been in that situation, you cannot fairly judge the officers reactions.

[Hollis]

Min, in regards to people with mental illness. The most dangerous population at the state hospital is in the geriatric war (based on workman's Comp. claims). Who would have taught, old coggers are so dangerous.

Ill regardless of mental illness, age, etc the officer has a right to safety. Events can unfold very quickly before sufficient backup and other ideal "parts" are there.

Each situation needs to view from it's own merits, not someother event that happened in another time or place. Or... that would be the ideal. One aspect of these problems all the information about what will happen in the confrontation is know. It was not known how this would have played out at the beginning. We all have an advantage that the officer did not have, we know what happened. It is easy to set back and say, well this or that should have been done, or this or that should have been know.

Try walking into a situation completely cold, not knowing who is who or what is what. Add to that, being expected to have been all knowing if the situation turns nasty.

[Van Gogh]

the comedy has to end at some point.

[CYW]

Some of the answers here are unbeleivable...You've got a kid, who's nt in a normal state of mind due to whatever mental illness he has...that kid also happens to be wielding a pair of scissors...for those people who are suggesting unarmed disarming and all that cr*p, i'd love to see you take on a deranged 15 year old who's holding scissors and who's been threatening people all day long with your bare hands...unless your name is bruce lee, that article would have been written about you and your death mate...

Some people said sumin about pepperspraying him...put yourself in the kid's position ye? your holding a sharp weapon and your threatening people with the intention to kill...a bunch of officers turn up to cuff you...what would you do if u gt sprayed with pepper spray? What a normal person would do is get blinded, be subject to a considerable amount of pain and be extremely p*ssed off...you dnt lose muscle control with pepper spray and therefore a normal reaction would be to swing and possibly charge the officers blindly...real smooth tactic

Standard OP of an officer is to unholster his side arm when faced with another armed opponent...if i was holding my gun up, and a teenager jumped me with scissors my first and foremost reaction would be to fire...some guys are talking bout tasers, firstly i dnt think they were issued tasers but even so, the article says nothing about time, maybe the cops got out, shouted "drop it drop it!" and the kid attacked...maybe they ddnt have time to return to their squad car, get out the little briefcase with the taser gun, prepare the gun, charge it, aim and fire...sometimes split-second decisions are required and when u're life is in immediate danger, by law you are ALLOWED to use necesseray force in relation to the harm you might be subjected to...since scissors can be deadly, it was perfectly legal to shoot the kid...

I wouldv'e done it and so would you...get over it

[nimer bortuqaal]

I have always found it interesting that people who say they are completely anit violence use violent measures when their personal security is at stake. Self preservation throws politics out the window in almost all cases. Take an anit war, anti violence mother, threaten her child and see what happens.

Any idiot that charges a person - law enforment or otherwise - with a gun pointed at them while armed themselves deserves what's headed their way. Darwinism at work.

[Litti]

Im so glad the Finnish cops are well trained and basically never have to use lethal force in these kind of situations.

A cop who only knows how to pull a trigger when facing a mentally stable 15 year old with scissors, deserves to have his badge flushed from the toilet.

Should our coppers act like this every friday night, there would probably be hundreds of fatalities every month. Ever so often a drunkard assaults an officer with a bottle over here but somehow they seem to know how to deal with the situation without unloading their magazine.

[California Joe]

Maybe every Friday night your coppers are sh*tfaced and don't mind tackling mutants with scissors. Maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't be such a condescending prick.

[HR24]

Going off of the info in the article, it sounds like the the LEO was right in going to that level in his use of force (especially considering NJ hasn't approved TASER). It is unfortunate that the kid is mentally handicapped, but the LEO really can't take that into effect when that person is presenting an immediate danger to the LEO and the general public.

If I was in that situation, and the article is correct in its statement of events, and with my agency use of force policy, I would have used lethal force as well.

Some on this thread should take note of who has been posting in it. There are plenty here with experience in matters similar to this.

[nimer bortuqaal]

Im so glad the Finnish cops are well trained and basically never have to use lethal force in these kind of situations.

A cop who only knows how to pull a trigger when facing a mentally stable 15 year old with scissors, deserves to have his badge flushed from the toilet.

Should our coppers act like this every friday night, there would probably be hundreds of fatalities every month. Ever so often a drunkard assaults an officer with a bottle over here but somehow they seem to know how to deal with the situation without unloading their magazine.

Wow! "We're all ninja's up here. We're so well trained." Give me a break. It's always surprising how people always think in absolutes. Or maybe they watch too many movies where the hero throws away his more superior weapon to fight on the same level as the villian so that the fight is more "honorable"....

[Litti]

First of all I know there are over 300 million people in the States so the probability for something like this is so much higher. And I´ve been there many times, the cops are very professional.

I just think this particular case was one of those things that could have been avoided with some patience - you have to be more sensitive when you deal with a mental patient.

But it´s done and dusted. Hopefully the kid makes it.

[nimer bortuqaal]

I agree that you need to handle people with mental issues a little differently, but all of that goes out the window once the attack begins. I wasn't there and I don't know how much patience they had with this kid.

[CYW]

A little patient with a mentally disturbed person? Two outcomes with that mate: 1) You can get it through to his head that he should put his weapon down or you can put your life in danger and tackle him using non-lethal force to spare the kids life...all good

OR

2) The kid, not understanding what the hell is going on goes absolutely ballistic and no matter what he's holding be it a pair of scissors or an AK47 proceeds to attempt to kill everyone

Mental patients might require more patience when dealing with them but there is always the danger of them snapping at any given moment...you cant possibly know whats going through his head...not even the best psycologist can do that with a mental patient let alone a cop...Give the poor guy a break!

[Alael]

A 15 year old boy lunging with scissors in my opinion does not constitute shooting him twice, why not pepper spray him or double team him with batons?

Tazer should be a solution, but the pepper spray is not safe enough for the police officer, and whom claims that is enough I'll invite him to try.

Often peoples who don't know how things are face to a dangerous person, say the police officer should have done this or that. But they don't know, they just imagine.... They should experience stopping an armed dangerous person.

The mentally disturbed peoples are the most dangerous: they are unpredictable, their strenght is multiplied and they don't feel pain like normal people : so pepper spray & baton (unless to break an arm or a leg) are rather useless.

[Alael]

oops... wrong click..

[Seraphim]

You're not suppose to use a taser on a person with a edge weapon here.

I love the "shoot the (weapon) out of hands or shoot them in the legs/arms comments. Sorry but you lose all your credibility.

[Alael]

You're not suppose to use a taser on a person with a edge weapon here.

I love the "shoot the (weapon) out of hands or shoot them in the legs/arms comments. Sorry but you lose all your credibility.

+1
Showing a total ignorance of reality.... why not using the Force? young Padawan...
Unhappily in some countries where judges and politicians are thinking like ignorants (politically correct countries which want to give lessons to the "awful violence culture country") the tazer should be the only mean of defense face to an edge weapon armed person, the life of a cop is less important than an armed crazy guy.

[usm2b]

You're not suppose to use a taser on a person with a edge weapon here.

I love the "shoot the (weapon) out of hands or shoot them in the legs/arms comments. Sorry but you lose all your credibility.


I love how you don't calibrate your ****ing sarcasm detector.

[Seraphim]

I love how you don't calibrate your ****ing sarcasm detector.

Wasnt even directed at you...I didnt even read your post.

[usm2b]

Wasnt even directed at you...I didnt even read your post.

Hmmm... how dare you injustice yourself by not reading one of my posts. You know, if you check out my profile, you can read ALL of my previous posts!!!

And my post wasn't directed at you either, so no worries. OK, you caught me... now I feel like an ass.

[Geezah]

A 15 year old boy lunging with scissors in my opinion does not constitute shooting him twice, why not pepper spray him or double team him with batons?

Personally, the kid deserved it, hopefully this will send a message out to those that think that they can take the p!ss out of the law.

And unless you have ever been stabbed by something pointy and sharp your point is moot, IMHO!

[oldsoak]

a taser or a baton round is what you'd like to use in this situation or even a baton if you know what your doing (but that takes skill training and confidence fine if your a 20 something martial arts freak but most cops arn't)
having taken down a drunk with a knife with the old SLR butt rest of his injurys happened while we restrained your him your honour not that we kicked him till he stopped struggling honest

- a poke in the gut with the barrell ( a proper poke, not a push ) works a treat as well. I know.
There has got to be more work done on non-lethal means. I want the cops to be able to drop a bloke to his knees with a stunner of some kind to put paid to this kind of teenage sh*t. It also means some poor bloke who is mentally not there doesnt end up collecting .357's.

[CPL Trevoga]

hopefully this will send a message out to those that think that they can take the p!ss out of the law.


In general that's a good point, but I don't think you can "send the message" to people who have mental illness. Their grasp of reality just isn't there.

[scuba]

Somewhere back in this thread someone suggested shooting the kid in the legs and quoting that their countries police force are trained in shooting suspects in non-vital areas.

I just want to say that is BS. You hit a person in the thigh bone and break that, they will lose a pint of blood (~500ml). Or what if you hit them in the femoral artery, the person will bleed out in no time. Even if you were to try and shoot the person in the arms to try and disarm them, there is still the brachial artery in the upper arm. Not to mention there is something call shock. Shock kills and a lot of people keep forgeting that. As to police shooting suspects in non-vital areas, I don't know where that person lives but in Canada, therefore I am going to go out on a limb and say the same for the States is that police are trained to aim for centre of mass, biggest target and easiest to shoot. Also in Canada the police aren't trained to shoot and kill, their training states that if they are require to use a firearm that they only to do so until the threat is neutralised. Yes, this might mean leathal force, like shooting a bank robber with a gun up to a hostages head in the brain stem. However, this can also be a police officer shooting at a suspect, only managing to graze the persons arm. However in the process, the suspect is so scared that they drop the weapon and gives up. The important thing here is THREAT NEUTRALISED.

There was a video a while back of some teenagers in truck, the driver shoots at the police, one policeman manages to shoot him in the leg, the guy drops to the ground and gives up by throwing the gun away. Everyone lived, but that might not going to be the case in very shooting incident.

As to all the other people here saying that the police officer involved in the shooting, that he should have pulled out his baton and done some kung fu sh!t. Have anyone one of you actually tried to put a pair of handcuffs on a person who is not cooperative? They don't even have to be punching and fighting, but just putting up a struggle with the cuffs, it is fu*king hard if it is just one on one trying to put cuffs on a person who isn't willing. Now, think about how much more difficult if that person is also armed with a edge weapon.

[netchicken]

Maybe he threatened to "cut 'em up"

If he attacked with a needle he might have been going to stitch em up...

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Personally, the kid deserved it,


Geezah did you read the article man?

The kid suffered a mental illness. IF the kid was not suffering a mental illness I would more then likely agree with you on this point. But the fact is we are talking about a person who in all probability can not function in the same manner as you and I. Hence him being a student at a school for mental illness kids.

[Geezah]

Geezah did you read the article man?

The kid suffered a mental illness. IF the kid was not suffering a mental illness I would more then likely agree with you on this point. But the fact is we are talking about a person who in all probability can not function in the same manner as you and I. Hence him being a student at a school for mental illness kids.

So the choice for the officer is to be stabbed?

The fact that a kid with a mental illness is threatening a Police Officer with a knife is not the fault of the Law, their job is to neutralise a threat to themselves or the law abiding. There should not be so much attention put on the Officers actions rather the powers that be that failed the kid!

[Macs.]

So the choice for the officer is to be stabbed?

The fact that a kid with a mental illness is threatening a Police Officer with a knife is not the fault of the Law, their job is to neutralise a threat to themselves or the law abiding. There should not be so much attention put on the Officers actions rather the powers that be that failed the kid!

I don't think that is what Minardiau was trying to say.

His point was that you wrote that this (mental ill) kid deserved to get shot.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Having two family members one of whom virtually needs 24/7 care with mental impairment, I just get sick and tired of the way society treats mental illness.

In education or lack of there of, health services, the way the law treats people with a mental disability, next to zero job prospects even if they are suitably qualified for low skilled employment it gets realy tiresome and takes a lot of energy.

Then when you see stories like this you can't help but think that it could be a relative simply because an officer was not prepared for the situation. Which is not the officers fault might I add. But rather his superiors for failing to provide contingency measures in the event of problems at the school, the government for not providing adequate funding in mental health services. And trust me. The funding for mental health is offensively shocking.

Maybe if the officer did not come across as threatening this kid may well have been more of a threat to himself then anyone else.

The way people are reacting to this incident is proof that society needs to wake up to the problems of mental illness. It's been mentioned that the police officer warned him to drop the scissors, he failed to do so and lunged at the police. The way people are ignoring the fact that it was "A mentally ill student shot by police" you people are treating it as if it was a "Teenager attacked police and was shot after ignoring police demands"

Can someone please tell me why such people with a disability deserved to be locked in a home, hospital or institution. Attend special schools yet when it comes to a problem with the law we remove all sense of compassion and expect the law to not only give the same punishment but in most cases hand out even more severe punishments.

I'm just getting really tired of it. With a bit of compassion, understanding and patience many of these people can become very productive members of society.

[Seraphim]

Having two family members one of whom virtually needs 24/7 care with mental impairment, I just get sick and tired of the way society treats mental illness.

In education or lack of there of, health services, the way the law treats people with a mental disability, next to zero job prospects even if they are suitably qualified for low skilled employment it gets realy tiresome and takes a lot of energy.

Then when you see stories like this you can't help but think that it could be a relative simply because an officer was not prepared for the situation. Which is not the officers fault might I add. But rather his superiors for failing to provide contingency measures in the event of problems at the school, the government for not providing adequate funding in mental health services. And trust me. The funding for mental health is offensively shocking.

Maybe if the officer did not come across as threatening this kid may well have been more of a threat to himself then anyone else.

The way people are reacting to this incident is proof that society needs to wake up to the problems of mental illness. It's been mentioned that the police officer warned him to drop the scissors, he failed to do so and lunged at the police. The way people are ignoring the fact that it was "A mentally ill student shot by police" you people are treating it as if it was a "Teenager attacked police and was shot after ignoring police demands"

Can someone please tell me why such people with a disability deserved to be locked in a home, hospital or institution. Attend special schools yet when it comes to a problem with the law we remove all sense of compassion and expect the law to not only give the same punishment but in most cases hand out even more severe punishments.

I'm just getting really tired of it. With a bit of compassion, understanding and patience many of these people can become very productive members of society.

And you're ignoring the part where he lunged at the police officer.

[Bia]

I could be wrong but it seems in the "good ole days" a few brave hardass cops would have rushed him with batons and handled business pretty much the way we'd expect it to be taken care of with that method.
Kid gets his asss regulated by some men... something men in the good ole days were good at.
I know I cant speak of this since I dont walk in others shoes but it sure seems like police more than ever are simply afraid.... I'm sure oldschool cops were too, but men seemed tougher in our fathers era.

???

[Laconian]

I could be wrong but it seems in the "good ole days" a few brave hardass cops would have rushed him with batons and handled business pretty much the way we'd expect it to be taken care of with that method.
Kid gets his asss regulated by some men... something men in the good ole days were good at.
I know I cant speak of this since I dont walk in others shoes but it sure seems like police more than ever are simply afraid.... I'm sure oldschool cops were too, but men seemed tougher in our fathers era.

???
First off, even in the "good ol' days" taking a stick (baton) to a knife (scissors) fight was a bad idea. Secondly, cops didn't get sued for dealing out an a$$ beating when it was called for by some snot-nosed kid or some drunk or some guy beatin' his ol' lady. But times have changed, society has become soft, and cops (some of whom took it too far back then) are worried about civil suits, over zealous prosecution, and administrative discipline for dealing with something and using their discretion and a little street justice.

[SBL]

Go easy on her(?). She's just pining for her lost youth.

[California Joe]

Laconian and I actually remember the good ol' days. :)

[Hadamar]

Having two family members one of whom virtually needs 24/7 care with mental impairment, I just get sick and tired of the way society treats mental illness.

In education or lack of there of, health services, the way the law treats people with a mental disability, next to zero job prospects even if they are suitably qualified for low skilled employment it gets realy tiresome and takes a lot of energy.

Then when you see stories like this you can't help but think that it could be a relative simply because an officer was not prepared for the situation. Which is not the officers fault might I add. But rather his superiors for failing to provide contingency measures in the event of problems at the school, the government for not providing adequate funding in mental health services. And trust me. The funding for mental health is offensively shocking.

Maybe if the officer did not come across as threatening this kid may well have been more of a threat to himself then anyone else.

The way people are reacting to this incident is proof that society needs to wake up to the problems of mental illness. It's been mentioned that the police officer warned him to drop the scissors, he failed to do so and lunged at the police. The way people are ignoring the fact that it was "A mentally ill student shot by police" you people are treating it as if it was a "Teenager attacked police and was shot after ignoring police demands"

Can someone please tell me why such people with a disability deserved to be locked in a home, hospital or institution. Attend special schools yet when it comes to a problem with the law we remove all sense of compassion and expect the law to not only give the same punishment but in most cases hand out even more severe punishments.

I'm just getting really tired of it. With a bit of compassion, understanding and patience many of these people can become very productive members of society.


And you're ignoring the part where he lunged at the police officer.

Minardiau is ignoring the facts about the case. He is using the incident to castigate society for failing to take more of the burden of caring for his family members. Notice how he protests "it gets realy[sic] tiresome and takes a lot of energy."

[Laconian]

Laconian and I actually remember the good ol' days. :)
We don't remember 'em so good anymore, but the bourbon helps.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

I'm not saying I want the government to take over the care. I think our family has done very well in ensuring these relatives have lived as close to normal life as they can. One of them actually manages to hold down a steady job and is now raising a family despite some problems with the law early on. The more serious affected volunteers at the local Coastal Patrol base.

What I'm trying to say is that governments need to do more in providing the resources to make this process easier. Sheltered Workshops, education and housing services. They also need to ensure adequate support and funding for government departments (which includes the police) so they can effectively deal with problems when they arise.

This case is a classic example of this neglect. In the perfect situation there should be a number of officers trained to be able to deal with mental illness sufferers so when problems do arise at an institution/hospital/school situations like this can be avoided.

[Hollis]

We don't remember 'em so good anymore, but the bourbon helps.


the Old bourbon is always better than the old days.

[Laconian]

We're not THAT old, but I was working the door at the Last Supper...

[California Joe]

I drew them, but Hollis did the measuring and Laconian and Argyll pulled sentry duty while Oswald played with the animals. p-)

[CYW]

There are certain people here who are saying stuff like "the cop shouldnt have shot him because he was mentally ill"...things dnt change due to the fact that the person is mentally ill...a cop doesnt go "oh, he's gt a knife, in normal circumstances i would shoot him but he's a mentally ill person so i wont..." a cop goes "he's got a knife...sh*t he's attacking! BAM BAM"...mentally ill people can still get charged with murder/manslaughter etc etc...

[Namus]

One shot in leg would be more than enough in this situation. Puty they teach cops how to shoot, but not to think.

[theholeinthedonut]

One shot in leg would be more than enough in this situation. Puty they teach cops how to shoot, but not to think.

There is no thing like a shot in the leg..........just proves your ignorance, every police force in the world teaches center mass shots, ever tried to hit the leg of a moving person with a handgun?
Besides thers's mainly bones which have the bad tendency to splinter and fly alll over the place.......now think about the femoral artery in the upper leg......so leg wounds are as fatal as wounds in the torso.

[Laconian]

One shot in leg would be more than enough in this situation. Puty they teach cops how to shoot, but not to think.

Please enlighten me as to which shooting school/training you've been to that advocated shooting someone armed with an edged weapon, within lunging distance, in the leg. Also, please reference your opinion on how EVERY police training facility in the world is ill-preparing their personnel to deal with situations such as this one - with specific annotations to the legal, physical, physiological, and psychological factors involved in use of force training. Take your time, I'll wait.

[dacanadianbomb]

Well at your age your accustomed to waiting , so the couple hundred years wont make a difference :-)

[Namus]

I posted a video before - how Belarus cops stopped big adult man with a knife by shooting in the leg after long "discussion". Perhaps I have to put it again.
http://www.youtube.com/v/-5yNyJyb71k

[theholeinthedonut]

I posted a video before - how Belarus cops stopped big adult man with a knife by shooting in the leg after long "discussion". Perhaps I have to put it again.
http://www.youtube.com/v/-5yNyJyb71k

So if I post gay **** you're gone accept this way of ****** intercourse as a norm and in the future you will only get involved with guys?

[Seraphim]

http://youtube.com/v/J3HR2O2m068

Tried to find that other clip of a guy escaping a police station with a knife and one of the officers tries to go hands on with the guy and gets slashed pretty good.

[Seraphim]

I posted a video before - how Belarus cops stopped big adult man with a knife by shooting in the leg after long "discussion". Perhaps I have to put it again.
http://www.youtube.com/v/-5yNyJyb71k

I guess baton strikes to the back of the head is SOP as well.

Those officers showed great restraint, but I'll tell you one thing. If that was me and he came after me like that, I would dropped him on the spot...screw that guy because Im coming home at the end of the day.

[Dispatcher]

I guess baton strikes to the back of the head is SOP as well.

Those officers showed great restraint, but I'll tell you one thing. If that was me and he came after me like that, I would dropped him on the spot...screw that guy because Im coming home at the end of the day.

Quoted for trueth.

[Dispatcher]

I posted a video before - how Belarus cops stopped big adult man with a knife by shooting in the leg after long "discussion". Perhaps I have to put it again.


Yeah, this is proper police procedure. :cantbeli:

[z0rr0101]

Yeah, this is proper police procedure. :cantbeli:

It never looks nice to the public. But what are they supposed to do? Lunatic is chasing them with the knife. They drop him down by shooting him in the leg and repeatedly call up on him to drop the knife but he tries to attack them again. They are not biting him while he is on the ground... They repeatedly hit him over his hands to drop the knife or to keep him on the ground, resilient bastard...

I agree with †Seraphim†, they showed impressive degree of restrain or lack of training. They could have shoot him on the spot.

[Hydro]

They drop him down by shooting him in the leg and repeatedly call up on him to drop the knife but he tries to attack them again.



...and that's why it's a poor decision. The threat has to be stopped. He's free to continue trying to attack even though he's been hit in the leg, and continues to keep a hold of the weapon even when being hit.


Look how he was running about. A moving leg is a very hard target to hit. Kudos to the cops for doing it, but in my eyes the risk of missing and hitting some poor rubbernecker is too great. Centre mass is a nice big blob and will stop the threat immediately.

[z0rr0101]

I agree with you but what you are suggesting might not be applicable in some countries. At least here in Sweden for police to use deadly force in this case requires attacker to almost stick a knife in the police officer. We had a a quite similar incident last year where a mentally ill person was preparing to knife a police officer when he was shoot by his partner. Prior to firing a fatal shoot he fired warning shoots but still he was investigated and demonized in the press and almost prosecuted for the murder.

Question to you gentlemens: Would a body (fatal) shoot without warning shoot be justifiable in this case in your corner of the world...

[Hollis]

Zorro, there are many reasons why NOT to shoot a warning shots. I would suggest using google, it could be a very lengthy discussion on why it is not done.

[Durandal]

Not too sure I would use this video as proof of ANYTHING...

[Dispatcher]

It never looks nice to the public. But what are they supposed to do? Lunatic is chasing them with the knife. They drop him down by shooting him in the leg and repeatedly call up on him to drop the knife but he tries to attack them again. They are not biting him while he is on the ground... They repeatedly hit him over his hands to drop the knife or to keep him on the ground, resilient bastard...

I agree with †Seraphim†, they showed impressive degree of restrain or lack of training. They could have shoot him on the spot.

Lack of training.
What i meant to say was this; you can see the officers "waiting", while the bad guy is chasing one of them. If that would happen to me, i would appreciate the effort of my collegues to either distract or shoot the bad guy.

[z0rr0101]

Zorro, there are many reasons why NOT to shoot a warning shots. I would suggest using google, it could be a very lengthy discussion on why it is not done.

hmmm, No need for discussion. If there is clear and present danger you have to stop it. Warning shoots can hit bystanders and non-body shoots have tendency to go through and hit somebody else

[z0rr0101]

Lack of training.
What i meant to say was this; you can see the officers "waiting", while the bad guy is chasing one of them. If that would happen to me, i would appreciate the effort of my collegues to either distract or shoot the bad guy.
you will have to excuse me I can be slow sometimes, after second read of your post I now see sarcasm :oops:

[Dispatcher]

you will have to excuse me I can be slow sometimes, after second read of your post I now see sarcasm :oops:

:hug: No problem mate!

[z0rr0101]

:hug: No problem mate!
Thank you, thank you... i feel all warm and fuzzy inside now...:)

[derdeb]

I referred to your words, that you'll do the same, not to the article. I personally participated in the capture of two armed deserters in 1999 near Stariy Sambor(under Lvov). None of them was killed. Now they enjoy 10 years of prison. From Uzhgorod tank batallion 5-6 years ago deserted 3 men armed with Ak's. They were captured and now are in prison as well. They were 18-19 years old. Not one of those surrenders, they all were disarmed by force. That's my small personal experience, though not the police work.

Please. In this thread the boy from the article is nearly transformed into brainless hulk-like coldblooded killer charging everyone with big deadly scissors.

I agree.

It seems that anyone's opinion that isn't in favor with the cop is automatically thrown out because he/she hasn't served in the police force.

Give me an effing break.

Since when did being a police office mean that every action you take is instantly correct? In fact, I would suggest that the reason the guy popped two rounds off is because he wasn't properly trained at all - either that or he's terrible under pressure.

Taser his ass and be done with it.

[Hollis]

I agree.

It seems that anyone's opinion that isn't in favor with the cop is automatically thrown out because he/she hasn't served in the police force.

Give me an effing break.

Since when did being a police office mean that every action you take is instantly correct? In fact, I would suggest that the reason the guy popped two rounds off is because he wasn't properly trained at all - either that or he's terrible under pressure.

Taser his ass and be done with it.


There is nothing wrong with being ignorant. We are all ignorant in different areas out side of our expertise. Ignorances has a cure, Study, learn, advance your own knowledge base. What makes ignorance a curse, it not knowing how ignorant you are and assuming you know it all.

To re-state that, the problem is not knowing, it not knowing that you are CLUELESS, you sir are clueless.

[derdeb]

There is nothing wrong with being ignorant. We are all ignorant in different areas out side of our expertise. Ignorances has a cure, Study, learn, advance your own knowledge base. What makes ignorance a curse, it not knowing how ignorant you are and assuming you know it all.

To re-state that, the problem is not knowing, it not knowing that you are CLUELESS, you sir are clueless.

Heh.

The only clueless chaps here are the ones who won't take their own heads out of the elitist asses and consider that excessive force was used against a pair of scissors.

To re-sate that, the problem isn't your head, it's that your head is lodged in your ass. You sir, are headless.

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/1072/sigto8.jpg

[Hollis]

Heh.

The only clueless chaps here are the ones who won't take their own heads out of the elitist asses and consider that excessive force was used against a pair of scissors.

To re-sate that, the problem isn't your head, it's that your head is lodged in your ass. You sir, are headless.

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/1072/sigto8.jpg


Obviously you don't look in the mirror. or projecting your own self imagine. It is nothing to do about elitism. That is your own lack of self esteem and stupidity talking.

Do you have any education, or do you believe knowledge is genetics. Why do people spend a lot of time learning something, when critters like you are born with the innate knowledge already.

Did you read any other posts, except for your "ultra superior chair borne reasoning"?

Maybe your related to Michael Moore, and reality is what ever you make it appear on screen.


Legally you sir are suffering from rectal cranial inversion, or too much illegal backing with intent.

Now be a nice boy, and move on, there is nothing to see here, move on.

[Seraphim]

Truthiness: to describe things that a person claims to know intuitively or "from the gut" without regard to evidence, logic intellectual examination, or actual facts.

[Laconian]

I posted a video before - how Belarus cops stopped big adult man with a knife by shooting in the leg after long "discussion". Perhaps I have to put it again.
http://www.youtube.com/v/-5yNyJyb71k

You are posting this video as an example of what should be done? Are you kidding me? Some loon, or tweaker, is attacking officers with an edged weapon and they respond with batons. I don't know the legal requirements for use of deadly force in Belarus, but in the US, that's grounds for a shooting. This video portrays officers officers who have not committed to the fact they they can and at times must use deadly force. And what's with that cat running around with the praying gun, a la Charlie"s Angels. The cops are lucky they didn't get sliced and diced. The shot to the leg - can you tell me with 100% certainty the copper was aiming for the leg? That he wasn't aiming center mass and just hit the leg due to stress? "Cause from that video I can't tell shyte. Again, you didn't answer my questions: 1. What shooting school trained YOU to shoot an edged weapon attacker in the leg? 2. What references do you have that state every police organization in the world that trains it's officers to shoot edged weapon-armed offenders is illegal, immoral, or unethical?

And to the last guy who thought two shots were excessive for a subject armed with a pair of scissors - you have no concept of handgun ballistics.
And for the last time: The TASER was not an option to these officers AND a TASER is not an appropriate response option to a deadly threat, and a subject lunging at you with scissors, even if he's 15, is a deadly threat.

[Seraphim]

And what's with that cat running around with the praying gun, a la Charlie"s Angels.

Haha, yeah I kind of chuckled when I saw that. I was thinking he need to stop watching 80's cop shows.

[WarriorMonk]

how's this for a kill-all argument:

NO ONE HERE IS RIGHT. the officer did what he thought would have been the best course of action. Of course he's going to draw fire from some direction. Why don't you all just chill the **** out for once over this? You can't save everyone, so why worry so much about it anyways?

[California Joe]

I agree.

It seems that anyone's opinion that isn't in favor with the cop is automatically thrown out because he/she hasn't served in the police force.

Give me an effing break.

Since when did being a police office mean that every action you take is instantly correct? In fact, I would suggest that the reason the guy popped two rounds off is because he wasn't properly trained at all - either that or he's terrible under pressure.

Taser his ass and be done with it.

Who the f*ck are you?

No one said you had to be a cop to have an opinion, but anyone whose training is limited to watching Spongebob Squarepants when not playing Counterstrike or Rainbow Six is automatically dismissed because their opinion is ass.

Not all cops are correct all of the time, no one has said they are, that is not the issue.

He probably popped off 2 rounds because he was trained to do exactly that.

There were no Tasers available.

I'm sure all cops everywhere are glad there are annoying c*nts like you around to second guess their decisions 3 weeks after the fact.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

I heard you drew the blueprints for the ark ;-)


Seriously though if i have read this right the police have shot someone old enough to know better and follow commands, yes 15 but whats next complaning when a 19 year old gets shot after pulling a knife

Having seen firsthand the results of a person stabbed with scissors I can tell you they do serious damage (think about it it's like getting stabbed with 2 knifes at once)

You are forgetting this kid was a student at a school for the mentally disabled. These people can not function normally at the best of times. Let alone in a tense situation.

[Hollis]

Truthiness: to describe things that a person claims to know intuitively or "from the gut" without regard to evidence, logic intellectual examination, or actual facts.

I have to try to remember that word, It really works. Thanks.


His truthiness abounded in him.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Who the f*ck are you?

No one said you had to be a cop to have an opinion, but anyone whose training is limited to watching Spongebob Squarepants when not playing Counterstrike or Rainbow Six is automatically dismissed because their opinion is ass.

Not all cops are correct all of the time, no one has said they are, that is not the issue.

He probably popped off 2 rounds because he was trained to do exactly that.

There were no Tasers available.

I'm sure all cops everywhere are glad there are annoying c*nts like you around to second guess their decisions 3 weeks after the fact.

As much as I think this shooting was the wrong thing to do. I agree 100% with Joe.

I agree enough to point out that the officer probably did do the right thing under the situation. However what I'm upset about is not the shooting in general but more importantly the piss poor effort that governments and society give in helping and providing for proper care for people with mental illness.

With proper care and support such shootings should not happen.

[Hollis]

As much as I think this shooting was the wrong thing to do. I agree 100% with Joe.

I agree enough to point out that the officer probably did do the right thing under the situation. However what I'm upset about is not the shooting in general but more importantly the piss poor effort that governments and society give in helping and providing for proper care for people with mental illness.

With proper care and support such shootings should not happen.


I agree, the problem needs to not have happened. Hopefully they will find what ever allow it to progress so far not happen again. It is a tragic event for all involved. In the early 80's the federal government forced a lot of institutionalized people to move into mainstream America. Group homes, etc was established and the financial burden was shifted to local governments which where ill prepared to meet the need. Some of the group homes where well run and was able to integrate their population into a community. Some seemed to be only good at collecting money.


Maybe in the future there maybe better safe guards to help prevent tragedies like this from occurring again.

[derdeb]

Who the f*ck are you?
No one said you had to be a cop to have an opinion, but anyone whose training is limited to watching Spongebob Squarepants when not playing Counterstrike or Rainbow Six is automatically dismissed because their opinion is ass.


Thanks for proving my point.

[California Joe]

What point? That your opinion is ill informed?

[Seraphim]

1234567890

[Laconian]

derdeb,
Your posts so far in this thread indicate that you are out of your lane. No one said that all cops are automatically right whenever they use force. However in this instance, given what was written in the article, it appears the officer's use of deadly force was within the legal guidelines. That's all anybody has argued. Other opinions that he should have used a baton or Taser or OC or some other less-lethal device - are just that opinions.

As someone who trains use of force to LE, I can tell you that all of those options are wrong. A pair of scissors qualifies as an edged weapon, I don't care who is wielding it and neither does the Supreme Court. The standard LE response to an edged weapon threat is deadly force (i.e. use of a firearm). Your comment that he was ill-trained or no good under stress displays an ignorance of both shooting/gunfighting and handgun ballistics. Whether or not you are/have been a cop is irrelevant, the statements stand alone and there are plenty of open sources available to the lay public regarding these matters. That's why folks are getting their thongs in a bunch.

[HR24]

derdeb,
Your posts so far in this thread indicate that you are out of your lane. No one said that all cops are automatically right whenever they use force. However in this instance, given what was written in the article, it appears the officer's use of deadly force was within the legal guidelines. That's all anybody has argued. Other opinions that he should have used a baton or Taser or OC or some other less-lethal device - are just that opinions.

As someone who trains use of force to LE, I can tell you that all of those options are wrong. A pair of scissors qualifies as an edged weapon, I don't care who is wielding it and neither does the Supreme Court. The standard LE response to an edged weapon threat is deadly force (i.e. use of a firearm). Your comment that he was ill-trained or no good under stress displays an ignorance of both shooting/gunfighting and handgun ballistics. Whether or not you are/have been a cop is irrelevant, the statements stand alone and there are plenty of open sources available to the lay public regarding these matters. That's why folks are getting their thongs in a bunch.

Quoted for f*cking truth.

[derdeb]

derdeb,
Your posts so far in this thread indicate that you are out of your lane. No one said that all cops are automatically right whenever they use force. However in this instance, given what was written in the article, it appears the officer's use of deadly force was within the legal guidelines. That's all anybody has argued. Other opinions that he should have used a baton or Taser or OC or some other less-lethal device - are just that opinions.

As someone who trains use of force to LE, I can tell you that all of those options are wrong. A pair of scissors qualifies as an edged weapon, I don't care who is wielding it and neither does the Supreme Court. The standard LE response to an edged weapon threat is deadly force (i.e. use of a firearm). Your comment that he was ill-trained or no good under stress displays an ignorance of both shooting/gunfighting and handgun ballistics. Whether or not you are/have been a cop is irrelevant, the statements stand alone and there are plenty of open sources available to the lay public regarding these matters. That's why folks are getting their thongs in a bunch.

Hi Laconian,

Firstly, thanks for the mature response. I didn't know that tasers weren't an option. I replied on the 14'th or 15'th page and didn't read all 100 posts.

Secondly, although the officer in question may have been within his legal rights, I still think that excessive force was used - which obviously the majority of this thread disagree with.

The problem is that as soon as someone takes the opposite opinion, people begin to sharpen their pitchforks. e.g...


Maybe your related to Michael Moore, and reality is what ever you make it appear on screen.


I'm sure all cops everywhere are glad there are annoying c*nts like you around to second guess their decisions 3 weeks after the fact.


No one said you had to be a cop to have an opinion, but anyone whose training is limited to watching Spongebob Squarepants when not playing Counterstrike or Rainbow Six is automatically dismissed because their opinion is ass.

Right.

So according to the genius posters above, I'm a Michael Moore fan (never thought I would type those words...) who watches SpongeBob Squarepants because I disagree with the officers decision of firing the shots. And although you "don't have to be a cop to have an opinion", my opinion is ass because it doesn't jive with the rest of 'right' opinions.

Fantastic logic.

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/1072/sigto8.jpg

[California Joe]

OK genius, perhaps I've spent too much time addressing ridiculous posts from people with little to no life experience and even less in a law enforcement capacity. But if you'd care to share why your opinion should matter on this particular subject because of your vast crisis management experience I'm all ears.

Maybe you should actually start reading threads at the beginning before responding.

Anytime a firearm is used it is excessive. The question was whether or not it was legal or warranted in this particular situation. Only the cop on scene and his superiors within the justice system can truly answer that.

People who have been there and done that, do actually have special insight into these matters. That is a fact. I do not presume to tell Navy SEALs how to do their jobs, but everytime some cop shoots someone, right or wrong, we get hundreds of posts excoriating the police. Most of them have to do with, lack of real facts, preconceived notions of what cops can and cannot do, a weird Hollywood perception of stress shooting and perfect marksmanship, a complete lack of knowledge of Law Enforcement SOP, or a hardon for cops in general because someone once got a ticket for driving too fast of getting a blowjob in a park after dark.

I do not really care if you understand what I just posted, it would have been easier to just ban you for being annoying.

[derdeb]

OK genius, perhaps I've spent too much time addressing ridiculous posts from people with little to no life experience and even less in a law enforcement capacity. But if you'd care to share why your opinion should matter on this particular subject because of your vast crisis management experience I'm all ears.

Maybe you should actually start reading threads at the beginning before responding.

Anytime a firearm is used it is excessive. The question was whether or not it was legal or warranted in this particular situation. Only the cop on scene and his superiors within the justice system can truly answer that.

People who have been there and done that, do actually have special insight into these matters. That is a fact. I do not presume to tell Navy SEALs how to do their jobs, but everytime some cop shoots someone, right or wrong, we get hundreds of posts excoriating the police. Most of them have to do with, lack of real facts, preconceived notions of what cops can and cannot do, a weird Hollywood perception of stress shooting and perfect marksmanship, a complete lack of knowledge of Law Enforcement SOP, or a hardon for cops in general because someone once got a ticket for driving too fast of getting a blowjob in a park after dark.

I do not really care if you understand what I just posted, it would have been easier to just ban you for being annoying.

I'm not excoriating the police.

I posted that in this particular case the two shots were, in my opinion, not warranted. I also never said that my opinion should be held in higher regards. I also missed the sticky thread that said all opinions need to be justified by military or police service.

I suppose I'll work on that in the near future.

Also, if you want to go off on a tangent about blowjobs in a park...well go right ahead. And if you want to ban me because I don't agree with your opinion - feel free.

This discussion has gone rotten because you've completely flown off the handle assuming that I'm some Liberal tree hugger who enjoys bashing police officers.

I suppose if that helps you sleep at night, then go ahead and believe it.

[Beowulf]

I'm not excoriating the police.

I posted that in this particular case the two shots were, in my opinion, not warranted. I also never said that my opinion should be held in higher regards. I also missed the sticky thread that said all opinions need to be justified by military or police service.

I suppose I'll work on that in the near future.

Also, if you want to go off on a tangent about blowjobs in a park...well go right ahead. And if you want to ban me because I don't agree with your opinion - feel free.

This discussion has gone rotten because you've completely flown off the handle assuming that I'm some Liberal tree hugger who enjoys bashing police officers.

I suppose if that helps you sleep at night, then go ahead and believe it.


The US Supreme Court, and every LE organization authorize deadly force against an edged weapon. I've seen what happens when even a trained martial artist tries to go against an attacker with an edged weapon, it's not pretty.

You don't have to be mil or LEO to have an opinion, but when the people that train for and do the job, as well as train others how to do the job, give their opinion you should listen instead of making smartass comments.

The others may not be willing to say it but as far as I'm concerned, if you're commenting on a subject in which you have little to no experience, and those members who have BTDT chime in, then your opinion doesn't mean ****.

If you don't like it you can leave.

[Hollis]

I'm not excoriating the police.


Also, if you want to go off on a tangent about blow jobs in a park...well go right ahead. And if you want to ban me because I don't agree with your opinion - feel free.

This discussion has gone rotten because you've completely flown off the handle assuming that I'm some Liberal tree hugger who enjoys bashing police officers.




Those blow jobs in the park, does have a link to your reading comprehension, they both suck. Just as you paraphrase for your convenience. My reference to Michael Moore was that he deals in fantasy and making up his own facts.

As it was suggested read at least the original post. The article has the facts that everyone was operating on. You seem to have your own imaginary Facts (hint Michael Moore again).

With the blow job in the park, you wanted to get into a pecker measuring contest, by whining about some "elitist" attitude being used here. I could equate that with the blow job too, as something to do with the tiny ***** syndrome (I feel so inadequate) or Michael Moore straw man inventions (creating more fantasies).

As far as your reply, I think like the fat tiny ***** guys that is driving around the park to get a blow job, when he gets busted instead of accepting his fault, he blames it all on the hooker. Or Like Moore, he blames it all on Bush.

It isn't a matter of a difference of opinon or anything to do with tree hugging linerals, it is:


http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k226/Hollis6475/admitting.jpg

[Chops]

And if you want to ban me because I don't agree with your opinion - feel free.


13 posts and you're going head to head with a pair of mods- one of whom was a cop and the other who is deployed in the badlands. Well done- top marks for situational awareness sport.

Oh and congratulations, you've made our **** List.

[Beowulf]

I was once involved in a park based blowjob, never again it tasted horriblep-)


I spoke to a mate of mine today who has informed me that in the UK anyone attempting to attack a ARV member with ANY sharp object be it scissors, needle or a sword would in an ideal situation be shot with a batond round (simular to a beanbag round) if these aren't avaible then they would be well within there rights to use live ammo on them

apprantly a taser wouldn't be considered in most cases as this would mean coming close enough to use it for them to attack (i belive he stated 21 feet can be covered in something like 5 seconds)

hey I sweat a lot when I'm out dancing at the clubs....

[Hot Lips]

This quote jumps out at me in the article...


The police don't have any regard for life."
"I think police should take every necessary step to save lives.

They do have a high regard for life. 1] their own, 2] the citizens they were called on the scene to protect, 3] the weapon weilding criminal/nut job/whatever

While 1 and 2 might be interchangable depending upon the individual and the circumstances, number 3 deservedly comes last in the grand scheme of survival. Period.

Always remember....

They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. *That's* the *MP.net* way!

http://allstarz.hollywood.com/~seanconnery/untouchables07.jpg

[Laconian]

HL,
Nice on The Untouchables reference.

[~center~]

Jeez guys, I'm out in the field for a week and all the gremlins come out to post.

Yea for us! woot

[Hollis]

Jeez guys, I'm out in the field for a week and all the gremlins come out to post.

Yea for us! woot


Does this mean, your buying the beer?

[Seraphim]

21feet can be covered in about 1.5seconds...5seconds would be from a grandpa for example, CJ. ;)

You need a MINIMUM of 21 feet distance from a person with a weapon and 6feet from an unarmed person.

[Bombtrack]

21feet can be covered in about 1.5seconds...5seconds would be from a grandpa for example, CJ. ;)

You need a MINIMUM of 21 feet distance from a person with a weapon and 6feet from an unarmed person.

This is true.

As a police dispatcher I can speak with some experience - You would be stunned at the kind of weird sh*t that happens on a regular basis. I know it sounds like a cliché, but don't judge them, you weren't there.

[Laconian]

21feet can be covered in about 1.5seconds...5seconds would be from a grandpa for example, CJ. ;)

You need a MINIMUM of 21 feet distance from a person with a weapon and 6feet from an unarmed person.

The "21-foot rule" as it is known is probably older than CJ & I and has been called into question as of late. Current arguments state that with a holstered weapon and a retention-type holster, an officer would need a 30-foot reactionary gap to draw, and get two rounds on target, and sidestep to avoid a direct-line assault. Of course the ability of the officer to do all that while some crazed cat is yelling, "Banzai!!" will require a lot of practice. The 6-ft reactionary gap for an unarmed subject (or one you haven't patted down yet) is still what most coppers are taught.

Kev point about the taser's 21-ft leads is noted, that is the very edge of safety with the taser and the spread on the leads at 21 ft. - well you'll just have to see for yourselves.

[Bombtrack]

edit...........

[~center~]

Does this mean, your buying the beer?

Bought and paid for my man! Did I forget to mention that? :)


The "21-foot rule" as it is known is probably older than CJ & I and has been called into question as of late. Current arguments state that with a holstered weapon and a retention-type holster, an officer would need a 30-foot reactionary gap to draw, and get two rounds on target, and sidestep to avoid a direct-line assault. Of course the ability of the officer to do all that while some crazed cat is yelling, "Banzai!!" will require a lot of practice. The 6-ft reactionary gap for an unarmed subject (or one you haven't patted down yet) is still what most coppers are taught.

Kev point about the taser's 21-ft leads is noted, that is the very edge of safety with the taser and the spread on the leads at 21 ft. - well you'll just have to see for yourselves.

I'll second all of that! 21 feet is still too close in my opinion.

[Hollis]

Bought and paid for my man! Did I forget to mention that? :)



I'll second all of that! 21 feet is still too close in my opinion.


Ok be right over, I'll bring the chips.

I agree 21 feet is close, then with possibilities of other distractions,.... too close

[Beowulf]

Yeah and you don't call after:bash:

to be fair I only run either towards the pub or away from angry boyfriends so not 100% on the 21 feet thing but i will defer to you guys as you know what your on about

Well if you would treat your boyfriends better then maybe you wouldn't have to run away. You ever thought about that, Mr. "I think we should see other people"?

[Dispatcher]

**** i should've made that a bit clearer I ment I run away from husbands & boyfriends OF WOMEN I have attempted to chatup


Youre not gonna talk your way out of this one... rofl

[Dispatcher]

Yeah I know I'm going to have to sit in the corner and take whatever comments till tis forgotten, thank god Hydro,Sabre & PT haven't read it yet


*copy/paste post*p-)

Sorry, you were saying?

[California Joe]

Hydro is on walkabout for 6 weeks or so.

You sure got a purty mouth.

[Laconian]

It only took 17 pages, but this thread has finally taken a turn for the better.

[Hollis]

It only took 17 pages, but this thread has finally taken a turn for the better.


Did I miss the photos of gooooood Looking Babes? I did get a beer out of the deal.

[~center~]

Gents, I have found the missing video of HOLLiS drunk (in his younger years of course).

***WARNING*** This video is probly not work safe!!! LMAO :)

http://youtube.com/v/cVhx6TvtrIk


We filled the jacuzzi in those Vista apartments with laundry detergent one drunkin night back in 95. Girls love that! LOL

[Laconian]

~centre~ that brought back some very painful memories. But I know that's not Hollis, because the one is using a computer and when Hollis was young computer was the name of the new-fangled abacus.

[Hollis]

LOL over 225 years and Marines when drunk, still act the same.

Gotta Love the Corps.

Semper FI,

And thanks for the compliment.

H.

[~center~]

Is it true you were drinking buddies with the first ones?

Just have to grind it in huh Kev, LMAO!



~centre~ that brought back some very painful memories. But I know that's not Hollis, because the one is using a computer and when Hollis was young computer was the name of the new-fangled abacus.

LOL so true!



LOL over 225 years and Marines when drunk, still act the same.

Gotta Love the Corps.

Semper FI,

And thanks for the compliment.

H.


LOL, Glad you liked it. :)

Maybe now this thread can die a much deserving death.

[Hollis]

I am personally denieing any involvement in this thread.