Blackwater Heavies Sue Families of Slain Employees

[eskrima]

Blackwater Heavies Sue Families of Slain Employees for $10 Million in Brutal Attempt to Suppress Their Story

By Daniel J. Callahan (http://www.alternet.org/authors/8406/) and Marc P. Miles (http://www.alternet.org/authors/8407/), AlterNet (http://www.alternet.org/). Posted June 8, 2007 (http://www.alternet.org/ts/archives/?date[F]=06&date[Y]=2007&date[d]=08&act=Go/).


The lawyers representing the families of four American Blackwater contractors killed in Fallujah make the case that the company's executives are suing the families to keep them quiet and to avoid any accountability.


The following article is by the lawyers representing the families of four American contractors who worked for Blackwater and were killed in Fallujah. After Blackwater refused to share information about why they were killed, the families were told they would have to sue Blackwater to find out. Now Blackwater is trying to sue them for $10 million to keep them quiet.

Raleigh, NC -- The families of four American security contractors who were burned, beaten, dragged through the streets of Fallujah and their decapitated bodies hung from a bridge over the Euphrates River on March 31, 2004, are reaching out to the American public to help protect themselves against the very company their loved ones were serving when killed, Blackwater Security Consulting. After Blackwater lost a series of appeals all the away to the U.S. Supreme Court, Blackwater has now changed its tactics and is suing the dead men's estates for $10 million to silence the families and keep them out of court.

Following these gruesome deaths which were broadcast on worldwide television, the surviving family members looked to Blackwater for answers as to how and why their loved ones died. Blackwater not only refused to give the grieving families any information, but also callously stated that they would need to sue Blackwater to get it. Left with no alternative, in January 2005, the families filed suit against Blackwater, which is owned by the wealthy and politically-connected Erik Prince.

Blackwater quickly adapted its battlefield tactics to the courtroom. It initially hired Fred F. Fielding, who is currently counsel to the President of the United States. It then hired Joseph E. Schmitz as its in-house counsel, who was formerly the Inspector General at the Pentagon. More recently, Blackwater employed Kenneth Starr, famed prosecutor in the Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky scandal, to oppose the families. To add additional muscle, Blackwater hired Cofer Black, who was the Director of the CIA Counter- Terrorist Center.

After filing its suit against the dead men's estates, Blackwater demanded that its claim and the families' existing lawsuit be handled in a private arbitration. By suing the families in arbitration, Blackwater has attempted to move the examination of their wrongful conduct outside of the eye of the public and away from a jury. This comes at the same time when Congress is investigating Blackwater.
Over 300 contractors have been killed in Iraq with very little inquiry into their deaths. The families claim that Blackwater is attempting to cover up its incompetence, its cutting of corners in favor of higher profits, and its over billing to the government. Due to lack of accountability and oversight, Blackwater's private army has been able to obtain huge profits from the government, utilizing contacts established through Erik Prince's relationships with high-ranking government officials such as Cofer Black and Joseph Schmitz.


http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/53460/

[deagle]

i believe there's some truth to those claims, its no secret that private contracting companies in security or food or other services overbill the govt, which approved a larger spending budget, that our taxes pay for.

i find it dispicable that was how they responded, and i hope the families win.

I also hope more potential or current contractors see how blackwater treats their employees.

[helomech]

I hope Dishwater loses their a_ss over this,what a bunch conniving f_ucksticks.......obviously they're not thinking of the fallout this lawsuit is going to have against the private security contractor industry..

[GromGrad]

I hope they get shut down for this.

[Hollis]

The articles is heavily pitched against Blackwater.

"The following article is by the lawyers representing the families of four American contractors who worked for Blackwater and were killed in Fallujah"

[GromGrad]

The articles is heavily pitched against Blackwater.

"The following article is by the lawyers representing the families of four American contractors who worked for Blackwater and were killed in Fallujah"


Good, with all the bigwigs in politics that are in Blackwater's corner it's good to see some one on the opposing side.

[WarriorMonk]

I just find it strange that PMCs exist - why not pay your Special Forces the same rate or higher than Blackwater/other PMC in order to keep them? Plus Special Forces has the capability to look like "contractors"/civvies and run black ops as they please, why have a company do it for you?

[Holmer]

I just find it strange that PMCs exist - why not pay your Special Forces the same rate or higher than Blackwater/other PMC in order to keep them? Plus Special Forces has the capability to look like "contractors"/civvies and run black ops as they please, why have a company do it for you?


It's not about the money and how much money they pay them...it is all about accountability or lack thereof. It is much easier to swallow if PMCs get KIA then gov't troops...as sad as that is. Plus, having PMCs around may give gov't troops opportunities to do other import duties like annihilate Allah and his friends.

[SkiSalomon]

I know that Blackwater has tons of political connections that they have gained over the last few years, but how are they bidding on all of these government contracts? Are they being awarded contracts that anyone (company) could bid on? If so, where are these types of contracts publicly listed?

I don't know much about the defense contract bidding process but the whole thing is pretty intriguing.

[digrar]

I just find it strange that PMCs exist - why not pay your Special Forces the same rate or higher than Blackwater/other PMC in order to keep them? Plus Special Forces has the capability to look like "contractors"/civvies and run black ops as they please, why have a company do it for you?

You're not taking into account the tens and tens of thousands of PMCs that have no SOF experience or military/LEO experience at all.

[budgie]

The articles is heavily pitched against Blackwater.

"The following article is by the lawyers representing the families of four American contractors who worked for Blackwater and were killed in Fallujah"

Well duuh...

[Calanen]

"The following article is by the lawyers representing the families of four American contractors who worked for Blackwater and were killed in Fallujah"


The attorneys for the families should not really be writing articles before the case is finished. Let it play out in Court.

But its a risky tactic for Blackwater to take, because, if they do get this in front of a jury it will only be a question of 'how much' and they are making a very good case for punitive damages.

[unpleasant]

I'm suprised by how quick everyone is to turn on Blackwater in this thread.

First: Correct me if i'm wrong, but I just did a two minute search for a major news network to cover this story and found nothing. A lot of blog comments and small time news sites showed up. I don't see any sort of credible sources.

Second: The guys that got strung up were not working for Motorola or American Express.. They were there on the job in a capacity to use force. Obviously nobody wants what happened, but thats a reality of placing themselves there.

Third: Blackwater is running a business. You would not want people taking money away from you if you could help it. They are making moves to make sure they protect themselves from losing money to inquiring families. I don't think this hurts the company's character at all.


What does the family want to hear?
"Eight guys in Two trucks got sent out, they were stopped and killed".

Do you need people family members (outsiders) criticizing strategy after every incident happens?
"What if you would have sent 24 guys in 8 trucks, they would have been safer!"... etc..

Should we run the mission plan by everyone's parents before they leave the wire?

[helomech]

I'm suprised by how quick everyone is to turn on Blackwater in this thread.

First: Correct me if i'm wrong, but I just did a two minute search for a major news network to cover this story and found nothing. A lot of blog comments and small time news sites showed up. I don't see any sort of credible sources.

Second: The guys that got strung up were not working for Motorola or American Express.. They were there on the job in a capacity to use force. Obviously nobody wants what happened, but thats a reality of placing themselves there.

Third: Blackwater is running a business. You would not want people taking money away from you if you could help it. They are making moves to make sure they protect themselves from losing money to inquiring families. I don't think this hurts the company's character at all.


What does the family want to hear?
"Eight guys in Two trucks got sent out, they were stopped and killed".

Do you need people family members (outsiders) criticizing strategy after every incident happens?
"What if you would have sent 24 guys in 8 trucks, they would have been safer!"... etc..

Should we run the mission plan by everyone's parents before they leave the wire?

I wouldn't call it 'quick to turn on Blackwater' so soon;there's not a whole lot of people who are fans' of this company;yes these guys went out to do a job and got killed,but they had been asking for better equipment among other things before this whole thing had happened;
To go after the families to keep them quiet,is bad form overall so f_uck 'em

[Hollis]

I wouldn't call it 'quick to turn on Blackwater' so soon;there's not a whole lot of people who are fans' of this company;yes these guys went out to do a job and got killed,but they had been asking for better equipment among other things before this whole thing had happened;
To go after the families to keep them quiet,is bad form overall so f_uck 'em


The article was written by the Lawyers of the Families, Yes according to them, Blackwater are scum sucking magots, that is their job, that is why they are getting paid by the families. Does that mean what they are saying is true?......

Unless you know something, none of us knows anything. So please educate us.

[budgie]

The article was written by the Lawyers of the Families, Yes according to them, Blackwater are scum sucking magots, that is their job, that is why they are getting paid by the families. Does that mean what they are saying is true?......

Unless you know something, none of us knows anything. So please educate us.

I believe the answer is to be found in the article:

By suing the families in arbitration, Blackwater has attempted to move the examination of their wrongful conduct outside of the eye of the public and away from a jury. This comes at the same time when Congress is investigating Blackwater.

It may be laced with opinion but one has to wonder why Blackwater would behave this way.

[helomech]

The article was written by the Lawyers of the Families, Yes according to them, Blackwater are scum sucking magots, that is their job, that is why they are getting paid by the families. Does that mean what they are saying is true?......

Unless you know something, none of us knows anything. So please educate us.

I know of people who do work for this company and this modus operandi is standard for Blackwater;what kind of company treats their employees and it's surviving families like this?

[Hollis]

I know of people who do work for this company and this modus operandi is standard for Blackwater;what kind of company treats their employees and it's surviving families like this?


Helomech, then you are probably much more knowledgeable about them than me. The attorneys for the Families are doing their job, painting BW as bad. As a outsider, I would have to ask friends on inside scope. I have no connection with their operation.

Also I don't know all the intricacies of the operation. BW would have to comment or not comment on that. Just because they don't comment does not imply any wrong doing. There can be confidentiality issues.


I would think that most of this was covered in the contract with the employees.

The other side note, why do the people you know still work for them?

[helomech]

Helomech, then you are probably much more knowledgeable about them than me. The attorneys for the Families are doing their job, painting BW as bad. As a outsider, I would have to ask friends on inside scope. I have no connection with their operation.

Also I don't know all the intricacies of the operation. BW would have to comment or not comment on that. Just because they don't comment does not imply any wrong doing. There can be confidentiality issues.


I would think that most of this was covered in the contract with the employees.

The other side note, why do the people you know still work for them?

As sh_itty as it sounds it's all about money;don't get me wrong,these guys I'm referring to are true professionals in every sense of the word but they do have the chance every so often to cap a booger eater if given the opportunity,but it does boil down to m-o-n-e-y......

[Hollis]

As sh_itty as it sounds it's all about money;don't get me wrong,these guys I'm referring to are true professionals in every sense of the word but they do have the chance every so often to cap a booger eater if given the opportunity,but it does boil down to m-o-n-e-y......


Kind of Ironic, we work for money, they contract for money. A lot of things boils down to the money. I guess I am glad I am retired, But isn't that about the money too?

Actually I think there is more... but in the boiling down process sometimes all that is left is the money for a reason.

[helomech]

Kind of Ironic, we work for money, they contract for money. A lot of things boils down to the money. I guess I am glad I am retired, But isn't that about the money too?

Actually I think there is more... but in the boiling down process sometimes all that is left is the money for a reason.

Maintaining a certain lifestyle for you and/or for others...ie. a comfort zone;the guys do this for a sense of pariotism as well;it can be kind of complicated to explain all the different reasons one does for a living..

[Hollis]

Maintaining a certain lifestyle for you and/or for others...ie. a comfort zone;the guys do this for a sense of pariotism as well;it can be kind of complicated to explain all the different reasons one does for a living..


Exactly..................

[name already taken]

Helomech, then you are probably much more knowledgeable about them than me. The attorneys for the Families are doing their job, painting BW as bad. As a outsider, I would have to ask friends on inside scope. I have no connection with their operation.

Also I don't know all the intricacies of the operation. BW would have to comment or not comment on that. Just because they don't comment does not imply any wrong doing. There can be confidentiality issues.


I would think that most of this was covered in the contract with the employees.

The other side note, why do the people you know still work for them?
The same thing that happened to the families of victims of 9/11 is happening to the families of the contractors.

Both just want to know.

Does that make me educated enough ?

[helomech]

Exactly..................

Time for lights out,Good Night Chesty Puller

[SOG]

I wouldn't call it 'quick to turn on Blackwater' so soon;there's not a whole lot of people who are fans' of this company


huh? says who? libs?


To go after the families to keep them quiet,is bad form overall so f_uck 'em

yes, **** blackwater which was founded by and employs many of our former hard working american military, police etc. uh NO.

to counter sue someone because they are wrongfully suing you is rather common practice no matter the court case.

from the "cup is half full" standpoint, blackwater waited a very long time before engaging this option. is that not rather stand up trying to negotiate and talk to rather than squashing right off the bat?

how do you know that hungry lawyers arent just pushing this case for money? you dont. you have taken one side with no grounds for doing so.


i believe there's some truth to those claims, its no secret that private contracting companies in security or food or other services overbill the govt, which approved a larger spending budget, that our taxes pay for.


some truth yes.


i find it dispicable that was how they responded, and i hope the families win.

would you countersue someone who was suing you for no discernable reason? would that be dispicable? so when a large company that employs hundreds or thousands does it its automatically evil? huh?


I also hope more potential or current contractors see how blackwater treats their employees.

fairly well from the abounding rumours. again a presumption they fed their employees into a meat grinder and treat all their employees as such? if thats the case where are the 100's of other lawsuits against blackwater by former employees for needlessly endangering their lives?


I hope Dishwater loses their a_ss over this,what a bunch conniving f_ucksticks.......obviously they're not thinking of the fallout this lawsuit is going to have against the private security contractor industry..

huh?


I hope they get shut down for this.

for countersuing a plaintiff after the plaintiffs have repeatedly tried to strong arm them with money hungry lawyers looking for a big break? what? im not questioning the families grief but overall knowledge of the situation and how everything panned out. thats for the courts to decide based on the evidence presented. alot of people here seem very very early to judge.

why dont all families who lost loved ones in the US military sue the government for not running the war or using their loved ones "as they see fit" or to their satisfaction?


Good, with all the bigwigs in politics that are in Blackwater's corner it's good to see some one on the opposing side.

you mean the bigwigs who support a military company that supports the US in its daily operations? its good to see who on the opposing side? and why?


I just find it strange that PMCs exist - why not pay your Special Forces the same rate or higher than Blackwater/other PMC in order to keep them? Plus Special Forces has the capability to look like "contractors"/civvies and run black ops as they please, why have a company do it for you?

well think of it like a company. if you take the time to build up everything in house and retain it on a regular basis, it costs a small fortune. now apply that to a massive military war machine and we are talking about a ungodly sum over a very long period of time. the overall idea is that the high cost currently presented will be cheaper than retaining a lower cost over a much longer period of time.

so basically your paying for something you need now but will not need later. (hopefully)

also there are a lot of jobs that contractors do, that do not need stringent special forces requirements on them. so having "special forces" do all this work would be a waste of resources.

also all contractors are hardly special forces, but rather indiciduals with a specific past that meets the current requirements.


I believe the answer is to be found in the article:

By suing the families in arbitration, Blackwater has attempted to move the examination of their wrongful conduct outside of the eye of the public and away from a jury. This comes at the same time when Congress is investigating Blackwater.

It may be laced with opinion but one has to wonder why Blackwater would behave this way.

so the answer lies within someones personal opinion? maybe, maybe not, you sure dont know.


I know of people who do work for this company and this modus operandi is standard for Blackwater;what kind of company treats their employees and it's surviving families like this?

you know of people? ****, i know of people too! doesnt mean i know what the people know.


The same thing that happened to the families of victims of 9/11 is happening to the families of the contractors. Both just want to know. Does that make me educated enough ?

well, let the courts decide. i think 98% of the people here arent educated in this case to know anything of this matter than biased publishing on both sides. myself included.

[Durandal]

I'm suprised by how quick everyone is to turn on a corporation that is trying to make a profit in this thread.

First: Correct me if i'm wrong, but I just did a two minute search for a major news network to cover this story and found nothing. A lot of blog comments and small time news sites showed up. I don't see any sort of credible sources.

Second: The guys that got strung up were not working for other corporations. They were there on the job in a capacity to use force. Obviously nobody wants what happened, but thats a reality of placing themselves there.

Third: This corporation is running a business. You would not want people taking money away from you if you could help it. They are making moves to make sure they protect themselves from losing money to inquiring families. I don't think this hurts the company's character at all.


What does the family want to hear?
"Eight guys in Two trucks got sent out, they were stopped and killed".

Do you need people family members (outsiders) criticizing strategy after every incident happens?
"What if you would have sent 24 guys in 8 trucks, they would have been safer!"... etc..

Should we run the mission plan by everyone's parents before they leave the wire?


Just take the names of corporations out and substitute "corporation".

If the company was negligent or contracted to provide something it did not, then it was at fault.

Its that simple. The corporation knows it and the lawyers do too and they want the least amount of bad press as possible.

Period, end of discussion.

As to why people dislike this particular company...well, its gotten too large, to quickly, it profits off of conflict (which means they ENJOY conflict) and bottom line...you saw them armed in U.S. streets possibly disarming U.S. citizens and were neither locals, Guard, or LEO.

Corporations are there to make money, usually the larger ones, involved in more questionable stuff (massive farms in 3rd world nations, security contractors, oil companies, car companies, airlines to name a few categories) do stuff that we, the people would find, questionable, unethical, disgusting, immoral, or illegal.

To think that a certain corporation is somehow above this is silly.

[ltrowley]

I think this reflects more on the behaviour of lawyers than anything else.

And I'm from a family of lawyers..:oops:

[dacanadianbomb]

You're not taking into account the tens and tens of thousands of PMCs that have no SOF experience or military/LEO experience at all.

Digrar is hitting the nail of course.
Why would you specifically hire a SF guy to guard a water treatment compound? Or drive a reporter through the countryside ?
Or to guard a convoy of trucks?
You prolly have thousands of USMC and Army guys etc who have been doing daily compound guarding who are rock solid.And cost half the price of a guy with 10 years of SF under his belt.

He wont be diving and demining in the water plant, he wont be HALO'ing onto the convoy of trucks etc etc.

Not that beeing a former serving SF is a detractor or wont give you a edge, but its not the pre-requisite.
Unless the position entails knowledge and skills that only a person of that MOS/specialty/unit can do, theres no real need.

[Hollis]

Digrar is hitting the nail of course.
Why would you specifically hire a SF guy to guard a water treatment compound? Or drive a reporter through the countryside ?
Or to guard a convoy of trucks?
You prolly have thousands of USMC and Army guys etc who have been doing daily compound guarding who are rock solid.And cost half the price of a guy with 10 years of SF under his belt.

He wont be diving and demining in the water plant, he wont be HALO'ing onto the convoy of trucks etc etc.

Not that beeing a former serving SF is a detractor or wont give you a edge, but its not the pre-requisite.
Unless the position entails knowledge and skills that only a person of that MOS/specialty/unit can do, theres no real need.

Let me add to what you are saying;


There are so many different types of needs. The military has limitations on what it is good for. It can not nor should not do everything. Look at the private security companies in the States, we have the Police, yet there is still a need for private security companies. The conflict in Iraq has more elements to it than just a Military element.

[name already taken]

well, let the courts decide. i think 98% of the people here arent educated in this case to know anything of this matter than biased publishing on both sides. myself included.
A multi-billion dollars company suiting ordinary citizens for 10 millions for whatever purpose, looks like it is simply controlling the courts with all the money involved in the process that ordinary citizen don't have.

Everybody should be outraged by such a practice.

[name already taken]

I think this reflects more on the behaviour of lawyers than anything else.

And I'm from a family of lawyers..:oops:
Quoted for thruth.

And I believe the Families' lawyers went public to get money to fight back.

[Baboonass]

but they had been asking for better equipment among other things before this whole thing had happened;



Kind of, but that isn't releveant in this case.

There are some very real legal considerations for civilian PMC work that gums up the "want" list.

It's not nearly as free spirited as some may think.

The lawsuit is justified, alothough on the surface seems very calous. There have been years of meetings and mediation up to this point that has not yielded the desired results by the plantiff.

PMC's are not conducting combat operations, they are performing a very limited security and support role. There are laws in place that regulate their actions.

I'd be very warry to judge BW untill all the facts are out.

[maw]

kinda off topic, but i was curious as to what was the fallout after the shootings at the bw christmas party?

[SOG]

A multi-billion dollars company suiting ordinary citizens for 10 millions for whatever purpose, looks like it is simply controlling the courts with all the money involved in the process that ordinary citizen don't have.

Everybody should be outraged by such a practice.

AFTER they sued the company. its a two way street. and again, blackwater waited for quite a while before doing so.

[name already taken]

AFTER they sued the company. its a two way street. and again, blackwater waited for quite a while before doing so.
Well, Blackwater and ordinary citizens should not be counted as equals. Legal procedure or not.

[James]

You prolly have thousands of USMC and Army guys etc who have been doing daily compound guarding who are rock solid.And cost half the price of a guy with 10 years of SF under his belt.


The U.S. Gov't spent about $1800/day/military person in Iraq in the first half of FY06. Here are some more up to date budget numbers:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33110.pdf

Early critics of PMCs latched onto the argument about how certain companies were ripping off the government, when in fact they aren't. They are always quick to point out contracts that were awarded w/o bidding; this happened occasionally until 2004, but the business is very competitive now.

99% of the people who've posted in this thread have no clue what they're talking about. The families want to blame BW rather than admit that their loved ones may have died because they made some bad decisions.

[oregongrunt]

It's not about the money and how much money they pay them...it is all about accountability or lack thereof. It is much easier to swallow if PMCs get KIA then gov't troops...as sad as that is. Plus, having PMCs around may give gov't troops opportunities to do other import duties like annihilate Allah and his friends.

These guys went over there on six figure salaries so they must of known the risk. Many believe we should have expanded our military a long time ago, but instead we've been using these private contractors in their place. Accountability is a big issue since they can pretty much do as they please without any oversight. It's been an unfortunate end for some of them, but what can we do?

[Baboonass]

These guys went over there on six figure salaries so they must of known the risk.


Absolutly. There is no chance that a PMC does not know the risks involved. It is very clear what the job entials and what the risks are.



Many believe we should have expanded our military a long time ago, but instead we've been using these private contractors in their place.


Sort of. Much of the PMC work is meanial or has some policital issues if AD military is used. Using a civilain contractor is a sound political move in the fact the a civilian compant is not a representation of the country of origin, unlike military personnel who were a flag and are "ambassaders of their nation".



Accountability is a big issue since they can pretty much do as they please without any oversight.

Not so much. Although there have been a number of instances were contractors have gone arry, they are under strict guidlines of what they can do and when to use force. I'm not sure if it has taken effect as of yet, but the American PMC companies are supposed to be under UCMJ rule.

There is an oversight, it's just not as effective as the military CoC.

[STEC06]

Not so much. Although there have been a number of instances were contractors have gone arry, they are under strict guidlines of what they can do and when to use force. I'm not sure if it has taken effect as of yet, but the American PMC companies are supposed to be under UCMJ rule.

There is an oversight, it's just not as effective as the military CoC.

They are under UCMJ. It was slipped into the 2007 Military Authorization Act. There's also the MEJA, which allows the US to prosecute contractors working with the DoD for crimes committed abroad... and Memorandum 17 by the CPA, though I'm not sure that one's still in effect, because it provided for the Iraqi government to get rid of it once the CPA left town.

[seraosha]

I'll keep an eye out on this topic, good stuff.

Kind of funny how a lot of assumptions are being made after "one" letter from opposing counsel is published...anyone with any kind of experience with the court system knows to take anything anyone says...on either (all) sides...with a grain of salt.

You would think this would get more coverage though.

[Baboonass]

They are under UCMJ. It was slipped into the 2007 Military Authorization Act. There's also the MEJA, which allows the US to prosecute contractors working with the DoD for crimes committed abroad... and Memorandum 17 by the CPA, though I'm not sure that one's still in effect, because it provided for the Iraqi government to get rid of it once the CPA left town.


Thanks.


I think this is a good thing, for a lot of reasons.

[maw]

kinda off topic, but i was curious as to what was the fallout after the shootings at the bw christmas party?

anyone? 1234567890

[SOG]

anyone? 1234567890

never even heard about it.

[oregongrunt]

Thanks.


I think this is a good thing, for a lot of reasons.


Absolutly. There is no chance that a PMC does not know the risks involved. It is very clear what the job entials and what the risks are.





Sort of. Much of the PMC work is meanial or has some policital issues if AD military is used. Using a civilain contractor is a sound political move in the fact the a civilian compant is not a representation of the country of origin, unlike military personnel who were a flag and are "ambassaders of their nation".




Not so much. Although there have been a number of instances were contractors have gone arry, they are under strict guidlines of what they can do and when to use force. I'm not sure if it has taken effect as of yet, but the American PMC companies are supposed to be under UCMJ rule.

There is an oversight, it's just not as effective as the military CoC.

It's good to know that there is some form of oversight now. A few of the many that I dealt with were really a handful. Most of them seemed alright though, but I thought that they were crazy when they would drive around Iraq by themselves in suvs with no backup (pre-Fallujah).

[Baboonass]

It's good to know that there is some form of oversight now. A few of the many that I dealt with were really a handful. Most of them seemed alright though, but I thought that they were crazy when they would drive around Iraq by themselves in suvs with no backup (pre-Fallujah).


It was, and is stil a mixed bag of individuals.

There are some squared away former operators, and some clown phonies who have no buisness in a war zone.

Unfortunatly, companies like BW need the numbers that were requested by the State Depatment in the time frame requested to bid on the contract. The 10% that is in every unit grows to a much higher percentage when you have less time to filter out the crap.

Personnaly, I wouldn't have anything to do with it now, at one time yes, but now, not a chance.

[Durandal]

What seems to get me is that this is a corporation, NOT government service.

The same rules that apply to other corporations apply to BW.

Like it or not, if the company was negligent. If it promised something in its contract (I don't know if it did or did not) then there is a case (a judge or jury finds guilt or innocence....or its handled out of court before it reaches that stage).

Some of you seem to blurring the lines of true military service...and thus service and sacrifice to your nation and being en employee of a company.

[name already taken]

What seems to get me is that this is a corporation, NOT government service.

The same rules that apply to other corporations apply to BW.

Like it or not, if the company was negligent. If it promised something in its contract (I don't know if it did or did not) then there is a case (a judge or jury finds guilt or innocence....or its handled out of court before it reaches that stage).

Some of you seem to blurring the lines of true military service...and thus service and sacrifice to your nation and being en employee of a company.
Quoted for thruth.
And the families asking questions to Blackwater are not asking questions to the Pentagon, and nothing should be hinted as to be classified by Blackwater.

Blackwater has no power to classify information, and while being private, Blackwater is subject to all government laws like any other citizen in the country.

[Baboonass]

Blackwater has no power to classify information, and while being private, Blackwater is subject to all government laws like any other citizen in the country.



Wrong.

Civilian corperations/companies/etc.. most definatly have the power to classify information.


BW, like every other PMC in Iraq, is under the auspices of the State Department when it comes to rules and regulations for conduct and behavior, not under the rule of the Iraqi government. However, these regulations are in accordance with the Iraqi Government.

[name already taken]

Wrong.

Civilian corperations/companies/etc.. most definatly have the power to classify information.


BW, like every other PMC in Iraq, is under the auspices of the State Department when it comes to rules and regulations for conduct and behavior, not under the rule of the Iraqi government. However, these regulations are in accordance with the Iraqi Government.
If companies would have the right to classify information, most definitely they would use that power to classify criminal activity.

They do not have that power and the government has the right to look into every aspect of their activity, by using the powers defined in specific laws.

This is in addition of some of their business operations being subject to State Department regulations and Iraqi Government laws and regulations.

That's part of the burden of being a large company conducting business abroad.

[Baboonass]

If companies would have the right to classify information, most definitely they would use that power to classify criminal activity.

They do not have that power and the government has the right to look into every aspect of their activity, by using the powers defined in specific laws.



The government does not have the right to aribitraily look into every aspect of a companies actitiy without due process.

There has to be a report of a criminal activity, that report muct have credibility, a search warrent must be issued for that specific information as defined by the warrent.

Many civilian companies have top secret clearences or higher as issued by the government for national security work.

At no time does the government, or anyone else have the right, no matter how high the persons security clearence, to look into any company that is doing classified work or working with or on classified material unless there is a direct need to know.

[name already taken]

-1: The government does not have the right to aribitraily look into every aspect of a companies actitiy without due process.

There has to be a report of a criminal activity, that report muct have credibility, a search warrent must be issued for that specific information as defined by the warrent.
------------
-2: Many civilian companies have top secret clearences or higher as issued by the government for national security work.

At no time does the government, or anyone else have the right, no matter how high the persons security clearence, to look into any company that is doing classified work or working with or on classified material unless there is a direct need to know.

-1: Who said the government had an arbitrary right to look into every aspect of a company's business activity ?

-2: Except the President who, the last time I checked, holds a government position, or anyone the President appoints to do so in his name. That's Government.

[Baboonass]

-1: Who said the government had an arbitrary right to look into every aspect of a company's business activity ?

You did, read your own post.


-2: Except the President who, the last time I checked, holds a government position, or anyone the President appoints to do so in his name. That's Government.

Not even the POTUS can simply look into someone's private buisness, especially when that information is protected under a security classifiaction, without due process.



Look up due process.

[name already taken]

You did, read your own post.

No I did not. You read this:

They do not have that power and the government has the right to look into every aspect of their activity, by using the powers defined in specific laws.


Not even the POTUS can simply look into someone's private buisness, especially when that information is protected under a security classifiaction, without due process.
Never said that. You read this:

They do not have that power and the government has the right to look into every aspect of their activity, by using the powers defined in specific laws.



Look up due process.
You read this:

They do not have that power and the government has the right to look into every aspect of their activity, by using the powers defined in specific laws.

The possibility government could look into any aspect of private business by using powers defined in specific laws, is there to keep everyone honest.

I hope this time the point gets across.:cantbeli:

[Baboonass]

I hope this time the point gets across.:cantbeli:

Nice backpeddling


you went from this



Blackwater has no power to classify information,


To what you have now.


In any case, now we are saying basically the same thing.

Wheeee!

[name already taken]

Nice backpeddling


you went from this





To what you have now.


In any case, now we are saying basically the same thing.

Wheeee!
No backpedaling. All's been taken from a previous post you didn't read, and it's not private companies who classify information, but government.

Nuff said

[Baboonass]

No backpedaling. All's been taken from a previous post you didn't read, and it's not private companies who classify information, but government.

Nuff said

LOL.

You're an idiot.

Nuff said.

[usm2b]

Would it be wrong to think of Blackwater as a '5th branch of the military'? I mean, can BW be contracted by foreign governments? Is there any oversight as to what foreign countries would be allowed to contract BW? It just seems to me like an authorized 'civilian' military.

Also one political advantage to BW I see, is that the American people are not down for big casualties, and technically speaking, in the media and political arena, one BW death is not as much as a soldiers death. Its horrible of me to say so, but I can't really recall ever seeing BW KIA stats on the nightly news.

[Baboonass]

Would it be wrong to think of Blackwater as a '5th branch of the military'? I mean, can BW be contracted by foreign governments? Is there any oversight as to what foreign countries would be allowed to contract BW? It just seems to me like an authorized 'civilian' military.

No.

BW and the other PMC in theater are uner the control of the DoD and State Department.

Like the PMC's now under control of the DoD, a group can be contracted by a foriegn government, everything is legal as long as they only act in a non-combat role.

PMC's are restricted to security and may only return fire if their lives or the lives of the people they are protecting are directly threatened. These rules are actually pretty restrictive. If a PMC conducts a combat role, (i.e., assaulting a building) then they would be considered mercenary and prosecuted under the law that governs that nation and the home nation to which they origniated from.

Any company may teach or train a foriegn nation in a variety of skills as long as it does not contridict the best interests of our nation. The best source for what you can and can not do is to contact the State Department.


Also one political advantage to BW I see, is that the American people are not down for big casualties, and technically speaking, in the media and political arena, one BW death is not as much as a soldiers death. Its horrible of me to say so, but I can't really recall ever seeing BW KIA stats on the nightly news.

The military is a representation of the government, a company only represents itself.

Politically, it is absolutly a better alternative for mundane yet hazardous tasks that was formerly done by military personnel.

[spade216]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/warriors/view/

i saw this a while back, mentions the incident at hand

[godfather]

The counter suit is a scare tactic on BW's part plane and simple.They are using every legal trick in the book to drag this out and keep it out of court.