Studies say death penalty deters crime

[IraGlacialis]

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/nws/p/ap_small.gif (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ap/brand/SIG=br2v03;_ylt=ArhcFXYaC9IK2mEi0qAdWiJH2ocA/*http://www.ap.org)
Studies say death penalty deters crime
By ROBERT TANNER, AP National Writer

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070611/capt.30bedd5786b8465eb5e460fdb8dbae45.death_penalty_deterrence_ny132.jpg?x=380&y=209&sig=v8HRnv3ndfXtuVoLhWDvbQ--
Alabama's lethal injection chamber at Holman Correctional Facility in Atmore, Ala., is pictured in this Oct. 7, 2002 file photo. Anti-death penalty forces have gained momentum in the past few years, with a moratorium in Illinois, court disputes over lethal injection in more than a half-dozen states and progress toward outright abolishment in New Jersey. (AP Photo/Dave Martin, File)

Anti-death penalty forces have gained momentum in the past few years, with a moratorium in Illinois, court disputes over lethal injection in more than a half-dozen states and progress toward outright abolishment in New Jersey.
The steady drumbeat of DNA exonerations — pointing out flaws in the justice system — has weighed against capital punishment. The moral opposition is loud, too, echoed in Europe and the rest of the industrialized world, where all but a few countries banned executions years ago.
What gets little notice, however, is a series of academic studies over the last half-dozen years that claim to settle a once hotly debated argument — whether the death penalty acts as a deterrent to murder. The analyses say yes. They count between three and 18 lives that would be saved by the execution of each convicted killer.
The reports have horrified death penalty opponents and several scientists, who vigorously question the data and its implications.
So far, the studies have had little impact on public policy. New Jersey's commission on the death penalty this year dismissed the body of knowledge on deterrence as "inconclusive."
But the ferocious argument in academic circles could eventually spread to a wider audience, as it has in the past.
"Science does really draw a conclusion. It did. There is no question about it," said Naci Mocan, an economics professor at the University of Colorado at Denver. "The conclusion is there is a deterrent effect."
A 2003 study he co-authored, and a 2006 study that re-examined the data, found that each execution results in five fewer homicides, and commuting a death sentence means five more homicides. "The results are robust, they don't really go away," he said. "I oppose the death penalty. But my results show that the death penalty (deters) — what am I going to do, hide them?"
Statistical studies like his are among a dozen papers since 2001 that capital punishment has deterrent effects. They all explore the same basic theory — if the cost of something (be it the purchase of an apple or the act of killing someone) becomes too high, people will change their behavior (forego apples or shy from murder).
To explore the question, they look at executions and homicides, by year and by state or county, trying to tease out the impact of the death penalty on homicides by accounting for other factors, such as unemployment data and per capita income, the probabilities of arrest and conviction, and more.
Among the conclusions:
• Each execution deters an average of 18 murders, according to a 2003 nationwide study by professors at Emory University. (Other studies have estimated the deterred murders per execution at three, five and 14).
• The Illinois moratorium on executions in 2000 led to 150 additional homicides over four years following, according to a 2006 study by professors at the University of Houston.
• Speeding up executions would strengthen the deterrent effect. For every 2.75 years cut from time spent on death row, one murder would be prevented, according to a 2004 study by an Emory University professor.
In 2005, there were 16,692 cases of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter nationally. There were 60 executions.
The studies' conclusions drew a philosophical response from a well-known liberal law professor, University of Chicago's Cass Sunstein. A critic of the death penalty, in 2005 he co-authored a paper titled "Is capital punishment morally required?"
"If it's the case that executing murderers prevents the execution of innocents by murderers, then the moral evaluation is not simple," he told The Associated Press. "Abolitionists or others, like me, who are skeptical about the death penalty haven't given adequate consideration to the possibility that innocent life is saved by the death penalty."
Sunstein said that moral questions aside, the data needs more study.
Critics of the findings have been vociferous.
Some claim that the pro-deterrent studies made profound mistakes in their methodology, so their results are untrustworthy. Another critic argues that the studies wrongly count all homicides, rather than just those homicides where a conviction could bring the death penalty. And several argue that there are simply too few executions each year in the United States to make a judgment.
"We just don't have enough data to say anything," said Justin Wolfers, an economist at the Wharton School of Business who last year co-authored a sweeping critique of several studies, and said they were "flimsy" and appeared in "second-tier journals."
"This isn't left vs. right. This is a nerdy statistician saying it's too hard to tell," Wolfers said. "Within the advocacy community and legal scholars who are not as statistically adept, they will tell you it's still an open question. Among the small number of economists at leading universities whose bread and butter is statistical analysis, the argument is finished."
Several authors of the pro-deterrent reports said they welcome criticism in the interests of science, but said their work is being attacked by opponents of capital punishment for their findings, not their flaws.
"Instead of people sitting down and saying 'let's see what the data shows,' it's people sitting down and saying 'let's show this is wrong,'" said Paul Rubin, an economist and co-author of an Emory University study. "Some scientists are out seeking the truth, and some of them have a position they would like to defend."
The latest arguments replay a 1970s debate that had an impact far beyond academic circles.
Then, economist Isaac Ehrlich had also concluded that executions deterred future crimes. His 1975 report was the subject of mainstream news articles and public debate, and was cited in papers before the U.S. Supreme Court (http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=U.S.+Supreme+Court) arguing for a reversal of the court's 1972 suspension of executions. (The court, in 1976, reinstated the death penalty.)
Ultimately, a panel was set up by the National Academy of Sciences (http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=National+Academy+of+Sciences) which decided that Ehrlich's conclusions were flawed. But the new pro-deterrent studies haven't gotten that kind of scrutiny.
At least not yet. The academic debate, and the larger national argument about the death penalty itself — with questions about racial and economic disparities in its implementation — shows no signs of fading away. Steven Shavell, a professor of law and economics at Harvard Law School and co-editor-in-chief of the American Law and Economics Review, said in an e-mail exchange that his journal intends to publish several articles on the statistical studies on deterrence in an upcoming issue.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070611/ap_on_re_us/death_penalty_deterrence;_ylt=AlPMDoM3lxWVPTDI9m_M7L.s0NUE

[JJC]

I still say for better results, they should have these death penalties live on CNN so that all the potential killers/rapists/pedos see what could happen to them.

[SOG]

lol, i was just going to post this before going to bed. you beat me to it.


Studies say death penalty deters crime.

they must have a masters degree in the VERY FRICKING OBVIOUS.

just a matter of: is this the BEST deterent? or can we do better...

personally im for it in certain situations.

[Lt. James Anderson]

-swift
-certain
-and severe punishment

The only proven concept.

Rehabilitation? Maybe in the f-ing grave.

I think all criminals should be killed ... :)

[GazB]

Even if it didn't prevent a single crime being committed it really does stop reoffending.
How many times do we hear or read about a criminal with rap sheets several pages long killing someone or doing something bad.

[MG 3]

Let my country be a testiment. We were third or forth last year on number of ppl hanged and it is already safer on the streets.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Death penalty is nothing more then a revenge killing.

Rehabilitation of criminals might cost more but with the proper systems, programs and funding in place is far more effective in combating crime.

You only have to look at Australia's history that proves rehabilitating criminals does work. Many of the convicts that were shipped out here went on to become great people. Convicts admittedly had it hard and done hard labor, however they were taught a range of skills in engineering, farming, shipping and so forth and in most cases went on and built the nation we have today.

Say what you want. What the idea the British came up with in 1788 was absolutely revolutionary. It's a shame this idea hasn't been followed by other countries. I'm sure there is large tracts of land in the US for example where entire new cities could be built suing a similar system. Criminals will do it hard but history has proven that give criminals a chance at a new life free of past wrong doings and they will make the most it.

The death penalty is a barbaric way of delivering justice. I actually don't call it delivering justice as in my mind it's a revenge killing nothing more. If we truly are a civilized society then surely we can come up with a better form of punishment then killing a person. Which not only being about revenge is simply taking the easy way out.

More needs to be done in rehabilitation. And definitely more needs to be done to ensuring the conditions that lead to 99% of crime are removed from society. Governments do have the power and the means to do stamp out poverty, 100% literacy, high numeracy and a healthy population. Give the population the means to achieve this and you will find that most crimes will vanish and only the violent crimes will remain. Even then if a person's life is one of productivity with no socio-economic problems (poverty) the chances of them committing a serious violent/****** crime would also be much much lower.

Cheers,

Minardiau

[digrar]

It certainly has a dramatic effect on repeat offender statistics. Rehabilitation will never be able to match it for that min. ;)

[MG 3]

^^^^^^ X2.

[Lt. James Anderson]

Death penalty is nothing more then a revenge killing.

Rehabilitation of criminals might cost more but with the proper systems, programs and funding in place is far more effective in combating crime.

You only have to look at Australia's history that proves rehabilitating criminals does work. Many of the convicts that were shipped out here went on to become great people. Convicts admittedly had it hard and done hard labor, however they were taught a range of skills in engineering, farming, shipping and so forth and in most cases went on and built the nation we have today.

Say what you want. What the idea the British came up with in 1788 was absolutely revolutionary. It's a shame this idea hasn't been followed by other countries. I'm sure there is large tracts of land in the US for example where entire new cities could be built suing a similar system. Criminals will do it hard but history has proven that give criminals a chance at a new life free of past wrong doings and they will make the most it.

The death penalty is a barbaric way of delivering justice. I actually don't call it delivering justice as in my mind it's a revenge killing nothing more. If we truly are a civilized society then surely we can come up with a better form of punishment then killing a person. Which not only being about revenge is simply taking the easy way out.

More needs to be done in rehabilitation. And definitely more needs to be done to ensuring the conditions that lead to 99% of crime are removed from society. Governments do have the power and the means to do stamp out poverty, 100% literacy, high numeracy and a healthy population. Give the population the means to achieve this and you will find that most crimes will vanish and only the violent crimes will remain. Even then if a person's life is one of productivity with no socio-economic problems (poverty) the chances of them committing a serious violent/****** crime would also be much much lower.

Cheers,

Minardiau

Communist BS ...

[nyarlathotep]

Impossible.

There will always be the haves and havenots. You can't have 6 billion well-to-doers. Even if you could somehow fulfill your requirements there will still be crime no matter what, from minor theft to pedophilia to murder. It's human nature that does that, what you describe requires much much more than we're capable of doing.

Did GazB suggest that execution reduces the chance of reoffending or did I read that wrong?

[signatory]

I kind of doubt criminals -before a murder- ..think "After abolishing the death penalty.. this is so easy.. I'm only gonna receive life in prison for this!".

[Lt. James Anderson]

I kind of doubt criminals -before a murder- ..think "After abolishing the death penalty.. this is so easy.. I'm only gonna receive life in prison for this!".

You're an expert ... We'll take your word for it ...
How about doing some research, talking to people who have dealt with scum instead of pulling opinion out of your azz ?

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Communist BS ...

Well PROVE me wrong or come up with an alternative!

****ing NEO CON

[Lt. James Anderson]

I already said it:

Swift, CERTAIN and SEVERE punishment.
I think criminal behavior is genetic (I would put it at 70 %)... so the only remedy is swift, certain and severe punishment. And it's proven ... just do your research ... I did mine in college. ;)


And no, I'm not a neo con (they are just different breed of communists) ...

[alfigel]

Well PROVE me wrong or come up with an alternative!

****ing NEO CON

He's not a Neocon, definitely not. Neither the Nazis nor the Stalinist regime nor the Juche regime in North Korea does/did what he demands, i.e. killing all criminals.

[martinexsquaddie]

don't get me wrong or anything but the US practice of locking somebody up for 10 or more years before executing them seems a little cruel.
and some of the people executed seem to have changed for the better in there time in jail I really doubt murderers think about the punishment more about the chances of getting caught.

[GazB]

Well PROVE me wrong or come up with an alternative!


Society has rules. Play by the rules and reap the benefits of society. Infrastructure, roads, electricity, housing, etc etc. Break the rules and society will punnish you. At the moment when criminals break the rules it is society that is punnished by having to look after these individuals. Most criminals get better treatment than the elderly and mentally and physically deficient.
Repeat offenders that are not repentant can't be exiled to foreign countries anymore. Pretty sure lots of Brits would love to be exiled to Australia now.

Regarding Australia, there were convicts... stealing bread in 1850 in Britain could get you exiled as could more serious crimes, but there were also plenty of settlers as well. Major boosts in population during gold rushes too.

There are many people who are bad. They don't care for rules and don't want to be helped. Be they too lazy to work, or greedy enough to see that stealing is quicker and easier than earning and a roof over your head and three meals a day is the worst punnishment the government can do to you is it surprising the prisons are full.

Prison should be about punnishment. Rehabilitation can come into it, retraining, education, etc, but at the end of the day it is a punnishment, not a holiday. Make them work to earn their keep and any extra left over can go to repaying those victims of their crimes.

[Lt. James Anderson]

don't get me wrong or anything but the US practice of locking somebody up for 10 or more years before executing them seems a little cruel.
and some of the people executed seem to have changed for the better in there time in jail I really doubt murderers think about the punishment more about the chances of getting caught.

Oh , really? What about the people they murdered? When will they "get better"? Do they get a second chance?

alfigel,
Rapists of all kinds, murderers, violent criminals etc. should all die for sure, IMO ... Also, the drunk drivers who kill a whole family (or one innocent person) ... they should be executed on a spot.

[GazB]

don't get me wrong or anything but the US practice of locking somebody up for 10 or more years before executing them seems a little cruel.
and some of the people executed seem to have changed for the better in there time in jail I really doubt murderers think about the punishment more about the chances of getting caught.

Gives them 10 years to prove they were innocent.

Biggest problem I have with the Death Penalty is that it seems that minorities tend to be given the death penalty more often than other ethnic groups... ie in a white society a black man charged with killing white women would be more likely to be given the death penalty than a white man killing a white woman. Indeed a man is more likely to get the death penalty than a woman for the same crime, and of course the poor or mentally incompetent tend to go down more often than others. (I mean truely mentally incompetant... not the temporary insanity people... I think anyone who can claim innocence because of temporary insanity, should first of all be convicted guilty because of temporary insanity, and then be given the maximum penalty possible for that crime... someone who slips in and out of sanity is rather more dangerous than any other type of criminal... they could do anything and not feel responsible for it.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Communist BS ...Oddly enough Communists are very big on capital punishment.

[Lt. James Anderson]

Oddly enough Communists are very big on capital punishment.

Politically motivated ... yes ... criminal ... no. They are criminals themselves ...

[signatory]

You're an expert ... We'll take your word for it ...

You're now speaking for the masses? Might be regarded as a sign of insanity.


How about doing some research, talking to people who have dealt with scum instead of pulling opinion out of your azz ?

:roll:

Childish.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Politically motivated ... yes ... criminal ... no. They are criminals themselves ...


You're wrong as usual

[Thor]

My only problem with death penalty is the fact that innocent people are executed from time to time.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I'm not against the death penalty for certain types of offences however what I have a problem with is politically ambitious prosecutors pursuing its use to further their own careers.

If it's going to be used then the execution should be carried out immediately after sentencing and it should be the prosecutor himself who presses the button.

If evidence comes to light at a later date that puts the conviction in doubt then the prosecutor should pay the ultimate price. :)

I think that should help to ensure the integrity of the system don't you?

[Thor]

You want to remove the right to appeal a sentence?

[ltrowley]

My only problem with death penalty is the fact that innocent people are executed from time to time.

x2

All the 'good work' done by executing criminals will be undone if innocents are executed along with them. We have blood on our hands aswell if we do

[dangerclose]

Rehabilitate this you limp-wristed bleeding-heart types.


The death penalty is 100% effective at detering crime. The offender will never commit another crime again.


It works every time it's tried.

[ltrowley]

Rehabilitate this you limp-wristed bleeding-heart types.


The death penalty is 100% effective at detering crime. The offender will never commit another crime again.


It works every time it's tried.

I have little interest in rehabilitation, I think life should mean life, life in a cage is a fate worse than death in my opinion, if they can't hack it then theres a bedsheet and bars provided. But to kill someone for a crime is lowering ourselves to their level, me must stay on the high road.

[dangerclose]

I have little interest in rehabilitation, I think life should mean life, life in a cage is a fate worse than death in my opinion, if they can't hack it then theres a bedsheet and bars provided. But to kill someone for a crime is lowering ourselves to their level, me must stay on the high road.

Convicts serving life sentences for murder have escaped prison and killed again; they also kill other inmates. Again, the death penalty is a pretty effective deterrent against that.

[dangerclose]

My only problem with death penalty is the fact that innocent people are executed from time to time.


In the history of the death penalty in the U.S. there's not been a single case where someone who was executed was later found to be innocent.

[Kippari]

In the history of the death penalty in the U.S. there's not been a single case where someone who was executed was later found to be innocent.

Not even the women who were burned because of witchcraft?:roll: Besides, people tend to forget about those who were executed if they were not some big shots or celebrities. Execution works for some cases ie. serial-killers, pedophile-rapist-murderers. However i don't think that anybody should be put down because they have murdered/killed 2-3 persons, they deserve life-sentence or less.

Personally I would support an idea that the victim or his/her close ones could do the same to the criminal what he/she has done to the victim.p-)

[ltrowley]

Convicts serving life sentences for murder have escaped prison and killed again; they also kill other inmates. Again, the death penalty is a pretty effective deterrent against that.

There's no denying your first two points, and maybe nobody has been wrongfully executed in the U.S (I'll do some research on that) but it has happened in the U.K. and elsewhere in the world. Having said that the new generation of supermax in the states is ridiculously escape proof, especially if the most violent offenders are housed in the 'SHU'

[ltrowley]

Then again...

From: Mike Radelet DSJ2RN2@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu

Some Twentieth Century Erroneous Executions (From Michael L. Radelet, Hugo Adam Bedau, and Constance Putnam, In Spite of Innocence: Erroneous Convictions in Capital Cases. Boston: Northeastern University Press, 1992, and Bedau and Radelet,

"Miscarriages of Justice in Potentially Capital Cases." Stanford Law Review 40 (1987) :21-179. Adams, James (black). 1974. Florida. Adams was convictedof first-degree murder, sentenced to death, and executed in 1984.Witnesses located Adams' car at the time of the crime at the homeof the victim, a white rancher. Some of the victim's jewelry wasfound in the car trunk. Adams maintained his innocence, claimingthat he had loaned the car to his girlfriend. A witnessidentified Adams as driving the car away from the victim's homeshortly after the crime. This witness, however, was driving alarge truck in the direction opposite to that of Adams' car, andprobably could not have had a good look at the driver. It waslater discovered that this witness was angry with Adams forallegedly dating his wife. A second witness heard a voice insidethe victim's home at the time of the crime and saw someonefleeing. He stated this voice was a woman's; the day after thecrime he stated that the fleeing person was positively not Adams.More importantly, a hair sample found clutched in the victim'shand, which in all likelihood had come from the assailant, didnot mach Adams' hair. Much of this exculpatory information wasnot discovered until the case was examined by a skilledinvestigator a month before Adams' execution. Governor Graham,however, refused to grant even a short stay so that thesequestions could be resolved. Anderson, William Henry (black).

1945. Florida. Andersonwas convicted of the rape of a white woman, sentenced to death,and executed in 1945 without an appeal having been made. Theexecution took place only five months after Anderson's arrest,perhaps in part because the sheriff wrote to the governor, "Iwould appreciate special attention in this case before some sym-pathizing organization gets hold of it." The victim had notresisted, screamed, or used an available pistol to resistAnderson's advances. Anderson's sister and one of his co-workerspresented affidavits to the governor claiming that Anderson andthe victim had been consensually intimate for several monthsbefore rape charges were filed. Anderson's attorney also wroteto the governor that "There exists well founded belief . . . thatWilliam Henry Anderson and the prosecutrix were intimate sinceAugust 1944. This belief is widespread among Negroes, but whitepeople have been heard to express opinions likewise." Appelgate, Everett (white).

1936. New York. Appelgatewas convicted, with Frances Q. Creighton, of the murder ofAppelgate's wife; both were sentenced to death in 1936. Theconviction was affirmed on appeal. Creighton had been tried andacquitted on two separate occasions for similar murders a dozenyears before she met Appelgate. In this case, she testified thatshe killed the victim (by arsenic poisoning) at Appelgate'sinstigation. During the investigation of the case, she alsoconfessed to one of the previous murders. "Virtually no evidenceagainst Appelgate existed beyond Mrs. Creighton's unsupportedword." Appelgate had no previous criminal record, andCreighton's version of the crime changed somewhat during theinvestigation. Appelgate admitted having had ****** relationswith Creighton's 15-year-old daughter; that fact did not earn himany sympathy from the jury. Governor Herbert Lehman, who haddoubts about Appelgate's guilt, requested the prosecutor'ssupport for clemency for Appelgate; it was not forthcoming, andclemency was denied. Appelgate was executed (as was Creighton)in 1936. A few weeks after the execution all investigation ofAppelgate's innocence ended. Bambrick, Thomas (white).

1915. New York. Bambrick wasconvicted of murder, and sentenced to death. The conviction wasaffirmed on appeal. Evidence was later discovered that convincedWarden Thomas Mott Osborne and the prison chaplain that anotherman had committed the crime. Osborne knew who that man was.Although Bambrick also knew the man's identity, he refused to"squeal" on him. Osborne commented, "It is almost as certainthat Bambrick is innocent as that the sun will rise tomorrow."Bambrick was executed in 1916. Becker, Charles, and Frank ("Dago") Cirofici (both white).

1912. New York. Becker and Cirofici were convicted of murder;Cirofici was executed in 1914 and Becker in 1915. The victim,Rosenthal, was a gambling-house owner. Shortly before thehomicide, Rosenthal had implicated Becker, a police lieutenant,in gambling activities. Becker had earlier made the gamblingworld angry because of his vigorous work in suppressing theiractivities. He was convicted largely on the testimony ofgamblers and ex-convicts in the glare of extensive newspaperpublicity about police corruption. These witnesses, allegedlymiddlemen hired by Becker, were given immunity for theirtestimony by an ambitious district attorney. The alleged motivewas graft, although no evidence was produced to support thetheory. Less is known about Cirofici, one of four gunmen put todeath for the crime. The then warden of Sing Sing prison, JamesClancy, allegedly believed that two of the executed gunmen wereinnocent. Another former Sing Sing warden, Thomas Mott Osborne,who knew the closest friends of the gunmen, stated that thesefriends all agreed Cirofici had nothing to do with the murder andwas not even present when it occurred. Warden Osborne alsobelieved that Becker was not guilty.

Collins, Roosevelt (black). 1937. Alabama. Collins wasconvicted of rape, sentenced to death, and executed in 1937. Theconviction was affirmed on appeal. Collins testified that the"victim" (white) had consented, which caused a near-riot in thecourtroom and led the woman's husband to pull out a gun and fireit at Collins. Collins was almost lynched and received only aperfunctory defense. The all-white jury deliberated for onlyfour minutes. Subsequent interviews with several jurors revealedthat although they believed the act was consensual, they alsothought that Wilson deserved death simply for "messin' around"with a white woman. Even the judge, off the record, admitted hisbelief that Collins was telling the truth. "An innocent man wentto his death."

Dawson, Sie (black). 1960. Florida. Dawson was convictedof first-degree murder and sentenced to death. The victim wasthe two-year-old son of a white woman for whom Dawson worked.(Although the boy's mother was also murdered, Dawson was nottried for that offense.) The conviction by an all-white malejury was based on a confession obtained from Dawson after he hadspent more than a week in custody without the assistance ofcounsel and on an accusation by the victim's husband. Dawson hadan I.Q. of 64. At trial, Dawson repudiated his confession,claiming it was given only because "the white officers told himto say he killed Mrs. Clayton or they'd give him to 'the mob'outside." On appeal, the conviction was affirmed on a 4-3 vote.Dawson was executed in 1964. Years later, newspaper storiesrevived doubts that had surrounded the conviction from thebeginning. Dawson had claimed that the victim's husband hadcommitted the murders. There were no eyewitnesses and thecircumstantial evidence was slight and inconclusive.

Garner, Vance, and Will Johnson (both black). 1905.Alabama. With Jack Hunter, Garner and Johnson were convicted ofmurder and sentenced to death, despite their claims of innocence.No appeals were undertaken. In 1905, Garner and Hunter werehanged. From the gallows Garner maintained his completeinnocence, while Hunter admitted his own guilt and absolved bothGarner and Johnson. In 1906, Johnson's sentence was commuted tolife. A fourth man, Bunk Richardson, who was charged withperjuring himself in Garner's behalf, was lynched three nightsafter Johnson's death sentence was commuted.

Grzechowiak, Stephen, and Max Rybarczyk (both white). 1929.New York. Grzechowiak and Rybarczyk were both convicted offelony murder and sentenced to death. Co-defendant AlexanderBogdanoff insisted that neither Grzechowiak nor Rybarczyk hadbeen involved in the crime, and that each had been mistakenlyidentified by the eyewitnesses. He refused, however, to revealthe names of his true accomplices. Grzechowiak and Rybarczykexecuted in 1930, after their convictions were affirmed onappeal. In their final words, they maintained their innocence,and Bogdanoff again declared that the two were innocent.

Hauptmann, Bruno Richard (white). 1935. New Jersey.Hauptmann was convicted of felony-murder-burglary, sentenced todeath, and executed in 1936. He was infamous as the ransom-kidnapper of the Lindbergh baby. Hauptmann's is a classic caseof conviction based on an intricate web of circumstantialevidence, perjury, prosecutorial suppression of evidence, agrossly incompetent defense attorney, and a trial in anatmosphere of near-hysteria. The trial followed a 2-yearnationwide hunt for the kidnappers of the baby boy of "Lindy,"the nation's favorite hero, whose wife was the daughter of thewealthy and socially prominent Morrow family. Hauptmann was thevictim of over-zealous prosecutors, intent on solving the mostnotorious crime of the decade. Although Governor Hoffmanbelieved that Hauptmann was framed, he chose not to halt theexecution. There is no doubt that the conviction rested in parton corrupt prosecutorial practices, suppression of evidence,intimidation of witnesses, perjured testimony, and Hauptmann'sprior record. In 1986, his aging widow brought suit against theprosecuting attorney and a dozen other defendants in a civilaction.

Hill, Joe (originally known as Joseph Hillstrom) (white).1915. Utah. Hill was convicted and sentenced to death for themurder of two storekeepers. The prosecution was based on sketchycircumstantial evidence and was in part the result of collusionbetween the prosecution and the trial judge in an atmosphere ofanti-union hostility. Despite several appeals from PresidentWoodrow Wilson to the Utah authorities for a reprieve, Hill wasdenied a new trial. He was also denied executive clemency. Hisappeal to the Utah Supreme Court was unsuccessful and he wasexecuted in 1915. Hill appears to have been an innocent victimof "politics, finance and organized religion, . . . a powerfultrinity"; his conviction and death are "one of the worst traves-ties of justice in American labor history."

Lamble, Harold (alias George Brandon) (white). 1920. NewJersey. Lamble was convicted of murder and sentenced to death.Testimony of an alleged accomplice and Lamble's admission on thewitness stand of his previous convictions led to his conviction,which was affirmed on appeal. Lamble consistently asserted hisinnocence, but he was executed in 1921. After the execution,Governor Edward Edwards refused requests to appoint a specialcounsel to investigate the case, despite what the New York Timescalled a "rather widespread fear that perhaps" Lamble wasinnocent. Lamble's attorney was disbarred for mishandling thedefense.

Mays, Maurice F. (black). 1919. Tennessee. Mays wasconvicted of murder in the killing of a white woman and sentencedto death. A white lynch mob terrorized the entire blackcommunity in Knoxville, and several blacks were killed by whiterioters; the National Guard had to be called out. Mays'sconviction rested on the testimony of a police officer who haddisliked him for years and on the testimony of an eyewitness whonever got a clear look at the killer. On appeal, the convictionwas reversed because the judge, rather than the jury, had fixedthe penalty at death. Mays was retried, reconvicted, andresentenced to death, and this conviction and sentence wereaffirmed on appeal. In 1922, Mays was executed, stillmaintaining his innocence. In 1926, the real killer confessed ina written statement that revealed she was a white woman who haddressed up as a black man to kill the woman with whom her husbandwas having an affair. The authorities, however, never acceptedthis confession, no doubt because they had already executed Maysfor the crime. Accepting the confession would have meantadmitting an erroneous execution. Mays had been previouslyconvicted in 1903 for killing a black man, but was pardoned forthat crime.

McGee, Willie (black). 1945. Mississippi. McGee wasconvicted of the rape of a white woman and sentenced to death byan all-white jury that deliberated for only two and a halfminutes. The conviction was reversed on appeal because a requestto change venue was not granted. After a change of venue, McGeewas retried, reconvicted, and resentenced to death by anotherall-white jury (this jury deliberated for eleven minutes). Thisconviction was also reversed because of the exclusion of blacksfrom juries in the indicting county. In 1948, McGee wasreindicted, retried, reconvicted, and again resentenced to death;three blacks were on the jury but there was no change of venue.On appeal the conviction was affirmed, and the U.S. Supreme Courtdeclined to intervene. The chief evidence against McGee was acoerced confession that he gave after being held incommunicadofor thirty-two days after his arrest; the victim's husband andher two children, asleep in the next room, never heard anycommotion from the alleged attack. Investigation by journalistCarl Rowan revealed that the victim had been consorting withMcGee for four years and was angry at his efforts to terminatetheir relationship. Nonetheless, local blacks were toointimidated to give this evidence in court, and local whites feltthe woman's consent was impossible or irrelevant. An attempt towin a retrial on the basis of newly discovered evidence failed,and McGee was executed in 1951.

Sacco, Nicola, and Bartolomeo Vanzetti (both white). 1921.Massachusetts. Sacco and Vanzetti were convicted of murder inthe course of armed robbery, sentenced to death, and executed in1927. Their case is probably the most controversial deathpenalty case in this century. They were arrested and tried in anatmosphere dominated by "the Red Scare" of the early 1920s; thedefendants---described as "anarchist bastards" in an-off-thebench comment during the trial by the judge--were on death rowfor six years. In 1925, another man also under the deathsentence in Massachusetts confessed to the crime. Extensiveinvestigation of the confession convinced many that he was,indeed, telling the truth. In 1926, the trial judge deniedmotions for a retrial based on the confession, and his decisionwas sustained on appeal. In 1977, on the occasion of thefiftieth anniversary of the executions, Governor Dukakis signed acarefully worded proclamation intended to remove "any stigma anddisgrace" from their names, declaring, in part, that their "trialand execution ...should serve to remind all civilized people ofthe constant need to guard against our susceptibility toprejudice, our intolerance of unorthodox ideas, and our failureto defend the rights of persons who are looked upon as strangersin our midst...."

Sanders, Albert (black). 1917. Alabama. Sanders wasconvicted, with Fisher Brooks, of murder, and sentenced to death.The conviction was affirmed on appeal. Though he had nothing togain by helping Sanders, Brooks testified at Sanders's trial thatSanders was innocent. Another fellow prisoner testified that hehad heard Sanders confess, however, and both Brooks and Sanderswere executed in 1918. In a statement from the scaffold, Brooksagain insisted on Sanders's innocence, as did Sanders himselfbefore he was hanged.

Sberna, Charles (white). 1938. New York. Sberna wasconvicted of first-degree murder of a police officer and wassentenced to death. His conviction was affirmed on appeal.Sberna's codefendant, Salvatore Gati, testified at the trial thatSberna was innocent, and in prison, both Gati and Sbernaconvinced Isidore Zimmerman (see Chapter 2) that Sberna wasinnocent. Gati also said the head of the New York HomicideBureau (Jacob Rosenblum) had told him that he knew Sberna wasinnocent, and would clear his name if Gati would reveal the nameof his real accomplices. Gati refused to do this. Later itturned out this police official had also been involved inwrongfully convicting Zimmerman. Sberna and Gati were bothexecuted in 1938. The prison chaplain said of Sberna, "This isthe first time I've ever been positive that an innocent man wasgoing to the chair, and there is nothing I can do about it. Ifonly people would make sure they know what they are talking aboutbefore they swear a man's life away."

Shumway, R. Mead (white). 1907. Nebraska. Shumway wasconvicted of the first-degree murder of his employer's wife oncircumstantial evidence and sentenced to death. One juror, theonly one to hold out against the death penalty for Shumway, toldhis friends he "had not slept well any night since the trial."He later left a note in which he expressed "great worry at thetrial," and he then killed himself. Shumway was executed in1909. His last words were: "I am an innocent victim. May Godforgive everyone who has said anything against me." In 1910, thevictim's husband confessed on his deathbed that he had murderedhis wife.

Tucker, Charles Louis (white). 1905. Massachusetts.Tucker was convicted of first-degree murder and sentenced todeath. The conviction, based on circumstantial evidence, wasaffirmed on appeal. More than 100,000 Massachusetts residentssigned petitions on behalf of clemency. Among those convinced ofhis innocence was the county medical examiner (who lost his jobbecause of his stand) and a clergyman who said a witness had toldhim she perjured herself at the original trial. Tucker wasnonetheless executed in 1906.

Wing, George Chew (Asian). 1937. New York. Wing was con-victed of first-degree murder (after a 30-minute trial) andsentenced to death. His conviction was affirmed on appeal. Aparticipant in the killing testified against Wing and wassentenced to 20 years. While he was in prison awaitingexecution, Wing convinced several observers that he had beenfalsely identified by eyewitnesses and that perjured testimonyhad been used against him. Warden Lewis Lawes also questionedhis guilt, but Wing was nonetheless executed in 1937.


edit: apologies for poor format

[dangerclose]

Not even the women who were burned because of witchcraft?:roll:


You're not serious are you? It was scientifically proven that they weighed the same as a duck so were made of wood and therefore were witches.

[Military-G]

I would be more enclined to say it would stop reoffending obviously, As people point out the consequences arent usually on the minds of the scumbags that perpetrate something so deserving of the death penalty.

[Military-G]

You're not serious are you? It was scientifically proven that they weighed the same as a duck so were made of wood and therefore were witches.

rofl So says salems Science University department eh .

[a_very_ex_STAB]

You want to remove the right to appeal a sentence?

Yes. If the death sentence is to be given the prosecution case must be watertight.

[Thor]

In the history of the death penalty in the U.S. there's not been a single case where someone who was executed was later found to be innocent.
No system is perfect. I have heard the Attorney General here and other professionals claim that they believe a number, 3-10 percent, of the people in jail are innocent to the crimes they were convicted (though most of them should probably be there anyway because of other crimes).

If you mean that this margin of error doesn't exist when it comes to death sentences. Then that is a good thing I guess.

[dangerclose]

I stand corrected then. Going back to the founding of this country it's not conceivable to think that innocent people haven't been wrongly convicted and then executed.

What should've been said is not since the reinstatement of the death penalty in 1976 has there been any conclusive case that an innocent person has been executed.

There will always be a margin of error but in the modern era of DNA evidence and 20 year appeal processes the sliver of a chance that an innocent would be executed doesn't justify the complete abolishment of the death penatly. There are some crimes that are so heinous that no other form of punishment is fitting.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

I stand corrected then. Going back to the founding of this country it's not conceivable to think that innocent people haven't been wrongly convicted and then executed.

What should've been said is not since the reinstatement of the death penalty in 1976 has there been any conclusive case that an innocent person has been executed.

There will always be a margin of error but in the modern era of DNA evidence and 20 year appeal processes the sliver of a chance that an innocent would be executed doesn't justify the complete abolishment of the death penatly. There are some crimes that are so heinous that no other form of punishment is fitting.

But locking up an innocent person for 20 years is ok?

[ltrowley]

There are some crimes that are so heinous that no other form of punishment is fitting.

I beg to differ, spending the rest of your life in solitary will rot and torment your soul much more than the 24hrs prior to your execution. In my view its a harsher punishment. However it is unlikely that 'life means life' will find its way back into the judicial system.

[dangerclose]

But locking up an innocent person for 20 years is ok?

You're right, prison sentences should be abolished because an innocent person could be convicted.

The problem would be wrongful convictions not the death penalty.

[signatory]

There will always be a margin of error but in the modern era of DNA evidence and 20 year appeal processes the sliver of a chance that an innocent would be executed doesn't justify the complete abolishment of the death penatly. There are some crimes that are so heinous that no other form of punishment is fitting.

The DP is not effective the way it is administered today other than perhaps in China. Regardless, the inmate will not feel any pain since the execution is done in a painless fashion. The real pain is to sit for life without any clear knowledge as to when it will end naturally or by an appeals court.

Further more, the likelyhood that a criminal will attempt to violently escape law enforcement after his offence will naturally increase if that person is individually aware of a clear risk to be handed the death sentence. Hostage takings, shoot-outs, intense car chases and so on.

The aim should be to reduce crime not to apply revenge.

[dangerclose]

I beg to differ, spending the rest of your life in solitary will rot and torment your soul much more than the 24hrs prior to your execution. In my view its a harsher punishment. However it is unlikely that 'life means life' will find its way back into the judicial system.


Ok. In the interest of torment would you favor daily torture sessions for convicted murderers? I mean it's harsher punishment than being put to death right?

[ltrowley]

Theres no need for torture sessions, your spending the rest of your life in a box by yourself.

I'd be begging them to shoot me.

[muck]

Two or so weeks ago I read something about a petition started by Italian prisoners convicted to lifelong sentences, who pleaded for reintroduction of the death penalty. They reasoned their demand with the statement, a doomed man would only die one times when he is executed, but they had a feeling of dying every day of imprisonment.
Beside the fact that I don't want my nation to sentence someone to death in my name, I am not absolutely against death penalty since there are definitely monsters out there who deserve it, only it should be clarified what it really is though - it is revenge, not a punishment.
A real lifelong sentence has better effects in my opinion. Additionally, the threat with death penalty may avert average criminals from committing more serious crimes, but it looks like there were enough doomed left who did not care about death penalty...

[dangerclose]

Theres no need for torture sessions, your spending the rest of your life in a box by yourself.

I'd be begging them to shoot me.


Or you could take female hormones and grow man-****s and videotape yourself having *** with your cell mate.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Speck


In May 1996, Chicago television news anchor Bill Kurtis received video tapes from an anonymous attorney which were made at Stateville Prison in 1988. Showing them publicly for the first time in front of a shocked and deeply angry Illinois state legislature, Kurtis pointed out the explicit scenes of ***, drug use, and money being passed around by prisoners who seemingly had no fear of being caught, and in the center of it all was Speck, ingesting cocaine, parading around in silk panties, sporting female-like breasts grown from smuggled hormone treatments, and boasting, "If they only knew how much fun I was having, they'd turn me loose."

[ltrowley]

Exactky, you get to experience your own living hell.
Innocents in the system get a lifetime to prove their innocence and the guilty get to go slowly and thoroughly insane. If not theres always the bedsheets and bars...

And we, as society still maintain the higher ground.

[dangerclose]

Exactky, you get to experience your own living hell.
Innocents in the system get a lifetime to prove their innocence and the guilty get to go slowly and thoroughly insane. If not theres always the bedsheets and bars...

And we, as society still maintain the higher ground.



Well since you've already said that serving life in prison is more of a torment than execution you're actually advocating a harsher punishment for the innocent.

[ltrowley]

Well since you've already said that serving life in prison is more of a torment than a death sentence you're actually advocating a harsher punishment for the innocent.

As it has been mentioned, no system is perfect, but at least they have a chance to redeem themselves. Death offers no respite.

And as for Speck's behaviour, thats more a reflection on the late 80's Illionois correctional institution rather than a plus point for the death penalty.

[dangerclose]

As it has been mentioned, no system is perfect, but at least they have a chance to redeem themselves. Death offers no respite.

And as for Speck's behaviour, thats more a reflection on the late 80's Illionois correctional institution rather than a plus point for the death penalty.

It's a clarion call for the death penalty if there ever was one.

[ltrowley]

The man died in jail anyway. He spent his last years as a drug abuser and sodomist....

[seraosha]

The man died in jail anyway. He spent his last years as a drug abuser and sodomist....

Every breath he took was another theft.

[ltrowley]

But every day in there he spent with grown breasts, snoring coke and taking it up the arse, we stole from him.

[Thor]

That a sentence to life in prison would be worse for a convict than the death penalty is just BS. If it was everyone would commit suicide.

As long as you're breathing there is still hope; you get to meet your family on a regular basis (including conjugational visits), there's always hope for a liberal shift in power and altered sentence, with age the possibility of transfering to a more open facility, or transfering to a medical facility where you can dupe the doctors, and yes, the possibility of escape.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Just out of interest. Has anyone ever escaped from Death Row in the USA?

[ltrowley]

I don't think they would all commit suicide. Far too many of them are ****ed up twisted individuals for that. Their 'hope' is what would prolong their torment. I'm all for the curtailing of serious offender's luxuries, such as the ones you mentioned.

[muck]

That a sentence to life in prison would be worse for a convict than the death penalty is just BS. If it was everyone would commit suicide.

As long as you're breathing there is still hope; you get to meet your family on a regular basis (including conjugational visits), there's always hope for a liberal shift in power and altered sentence, with age the possibility of transfering to a more open facility, or transfering to a medical facility where you can dupe the doctors, and yes, the possibility of escape.

Why is it BS, dude. 310 Italian prisoners signed this petition, addressed to the Italian president. I suppose, that they know more than we here about what they talk and what it means to be doomed to die in imprisonment or at least to spend your best years in a prison till you get old and rusty. Of course, still they may have hope to get released once. People often incline to continue hoping nonetheless, even if it is already unrealistic.

[Thor]

Why is it BS, dude. 310 Italian prisoners signed this petition, addressed to the Italian president.
310 prisoners signing a petition is a publicity stunt to improve conditions (to get cable-tv, birthday cakes or whatever). 310 prisoners killing themelves is facta non verba.


I don't think they would all commit suicide. Far too many of them are ****ed up twisted individuals for that.
In the end they are just humans and act accordingly.


Their 'hope' is what would prolong their torment. I'm all for the curtailing of serious offender's luxuries, such as the ones you mentioned.
If you believe that hope is a tormenting factor you lack a great deal of basic understanding of the human nature.

[ltrowley]

"Hope' in the regard to the hopeful end of their incarceration when is there is none is definitely a factor.

However I may have over stepped the boundaries in a few of my previous comments.

I have also overstepped my boundaries regarding beer and bedtime, will resume this in the morning.

[muck]

310 prisoners signing a petition is a publicity stunt to improve conditions (to get cable-tv, birthday cakes or whatever).

I assume you did not see that your statement has proven my own one. Of course they want to improve their living conditions - they want their martyrium to end. Because men are not made for seeing nature and the sunlight only one time a day in a short guarded walk, being alone the other 23 hours of the day and being obligated into a ryhtm they don't want to share. They deaden and become uninterested in life. And those who recognize what is happening with them, want the things to change.

[Herrmannek]

Isn't that obvious?

[Lt. James Anderson]

You're wrong as usual

How am I wrong? Please explain ...
Find me an example of communist that was a law abiding citizen ... Most of them were just lazy (every true communist never worked a day in his life ... just look at the history ... about the only muscles they used for work were mouth and tongue muscles to takl BS), good for nothing murdering, raping and thieving scum ...

[PsychoMantis]

I still say for better results, they should have these death penalties live on CNN so that all the potential killers/rapists/pedos see what could happen to them.
I agree. Am I wrong to assume that your also a "Running Man" fan?

[steelfury]

Just wondering if any of those here talking about how unfair and barbaric the Death Penalty is, have ever had anyone close to them or family Murdered?

[Lt. James Anderson]

Just wondering if any of those here talking about how unfair and barbaric the Death Penalty is, have ever had anyone close to them or family Murdered?

I doubt it they would be so tolerant if that was the case. Then they would probably demand cutting a murderer to pieces in the most barbaric way possible ...

[a_very_ex_STAB]

How am I wrong? Please explain ...
Find me an example of communist that was a law abiding citizen ... Most of them were just lazy (every true communist never worked a day in his life ... just look at the history ... about the only muscles they used for work were mouth and tongue muscles to takl BS), good for nothing murdering, raping and thieving scum ...

Hmm where to start?

Maybe the Russian members of this forum can fill you on the details of a certain Mr Stakhanov (among many others)

Or we could just let you continue with your amusingly inane ramblings.

[Lt. James Anderson]

That still doesn't prove anything.
In Russia they killed tens of millions ... among them some of my relatives

[a_very_ex_STAB]

That still doesn't prove anything.
In Russia they killed tens of millions ... among them some of my relatives

They undoubtedly murdered lots of people and so has global capitalism but it has absolutely nothing to do with how hard people work. I'm curious as to why you link the two issues together in a thread about the death penalty.

Actually on second thoughts I'm not that curious I have a business to run and time is money for us capitalist exploiters.:)

[svendejong]

Find me an example of communist that was a law abiding citizen ... Most of them were just lazy (every true communist never worked a day in his life ... just look at the history ... about the only muscles they used for work were mouth and tongue muscles to takl BS), good for nothing murdering, raping and thieving scum ...

dont know if i should laugh or cry reading this.
One thing for sure, Im happy my Lt in my army days made more sense!!!

[chas]

This thread isnt as sad as I thought it would be, its even fun!:)

Rehabilitation supporter = communist
Criminality si 70% genetical
Communist citizens were lazy workers most of them

Lt.James Anderson, you are the Nazi-Clown! Why dont you sing the
"Happy-lets-genetically.modify-the-sons-of-communists-so-they-dont-become-criminals" song for us?

BTW: there are lots of other studies that say the opposite thing but lets just think: why is there less criminality, especially less violent criminality, especially less murders in countries that got rid of capital punishment 30 years ago?

[mudbunny]

It must be easy to live in a strictly black and white world which some of you obviously do. My question, how many innocent people have been executed through the years because of skin color, race etc.? I'm assuming you folks championing execution also saw no problem with the Salem Witch Trials, right? I mean, after all they were tried and convicted by a court of their peers, so it was acceptable right?

[Hollis]

It must be easy to live in a strictly black and white world which some of you obviously do. My question, how many innocent people have been executed through the years because of skin color, race etc.? I'm assuming you folks championing execution also saw no problem with the Salem Witch Trials, right? I mean, after all they were tried and convicted by a court of their peers, so it was acceptable right?


You were doing ok, till you went weird and brought up the Salem witch trials, This is 2007, long time has passed. As far as innocents, science has gotten better at helping to confirm the guilt or innocent,

Lets Bifurcate the argument.

1) fair trial............ that should be.

2) penalties..... We can even split that up into, yes or no to capital punishment, and if yes, under what circumstances.

The thread is not on racially biased perversion of the legal system, miscarriages of justice or other legal issues, it is about a penalty (death sentence), should it be imposed?

[mudbunny]

You were doing ok, till you went weird and brought up the Salem witch trials, This is 2007, long time has passed. As far as innocents, science has gotten better at helping to confirm the guilt or innocent,

Lets Bifurcate the argument.

1) fair trial............ that should be.

2) penalties..... We can even split that up into, yes or no to capital punishment, and if yes, under what circumstances.

The thread is not on racially biased perversion of the legal system, miscarriages of justice or other legal issues, it is about a penalty (death sentence), should it be imposed?

Well, you can act like the introduction of science has somehow made man's decision on execution more ethical but the habits and faults of human beings is the same as it was 2000 years ago, I don't care what the date on the calender says.
And no, this thread is not BASED on the perversion of the justice system due to race but it is still a factor in this country, so I'm not real sure how you can just say "oh well, we're not discussing race here" lol. I'm not a supporter of Capitol punishment even with a one-hundred percent accuracy rate, but until it is that accurate I don't understand how anyone with any sense can support it. And we haven't even discussed the possibilities of mental illness. I'm sure there is nothing that makes God smile like his creation executing retarded people. Perhaps we can create bumper stickers that say
"Smile, Texas just executed a retard."

[joe mama]

...

Nice fantasy world you live in where criminals are just poor people who had no other choice but to turn to crime, and the majority aren't violent animals who reject working hard for reasonable rewards and following a reasonable societies rules.
Is your world also full of laughing children who vomit cotton candy from their gumdrop smiles whilst playing by rivers of chocolate under bublegum skies?

[Lt. James Anderson]

This thread isnt as sad as I thought it would be, its even fun!:)

Rehabilitation supporter = communist
Criminality si 70% genetical
Communist citizens were lazy workers most of them

Lt.James Anderson, you are the Nazi-Clown! Why dont you sing the
"Happy-lets-genetically.modify-the-sons-of-communists-so-they-dont-become-criminals" song for us?

BTW: there are lots of other studies that say the opposite thing but lets just think: why is there less criminality, especially less violent criminality, especially less murders in countries that got rid of capital punishment 30 years ago?

You are an idiot.
True communists were lazy, good for nothing pieces of crap ... Citizen of a communist country was a slave and nobody said they never worked. They had to work to support the criminal scum on top ...

[a_very_ex_STAB]

You are an idiot.
True communists were lazy, good for nothing pieces of crap ... Citizen of a communist country was a slave and nobody said they never worked. They had to work to support the criminal scum on top ...

So communist countries are just like capitalist countries then :)

[Lt. James Anderson]

So communist countries are just like capitalist countries then :)

In a sense yes ...
Top party members are rich capitalists ... and party owns everything ... unless you believe that communist BS about workers paradise, equality etc.

[dangerclose]

BTW: there are lots of other studies that say the opposite thing but lets just think: why is there less criminality, especially less violent criminality, especially less murders in countries that got rid of capital punishment 30 years ago?


Maybe there's a reverse correlation. There's no demand for a death penalty in communities with low violent crime rates and conversely, if there were a rash of horrific mass murders in Amsterdam they might reconsider their stance on capital punishment.


And whether it's a deterrent or not is irrelevant. It's capital punishment.

[urbanassualt]

I already said it:

Swift, CERTAIN and SEVERE punishment.
I think criminal behavior is genetic (I would put it at 70 %)... so the only remedy is swift, certain and severe punishment. And it's proven ... just do your research ... I did mine in college. ;)



Interesting... I did similar research in college and my figures were that genetic criminal behavior is rated at only 50%. Half of all criminals were predisposed to creating mayhem and destruction from birth; and the only reason why was because their 'Daddy did it, too...' :roll:

Maybe we should just quarantine the offspring of criminals? If 70% of all criminal behavior is 'genetic' these children must be very, very dangerous to society.

[Pekhota]

-swift
-certain
-and severe punishment

The only proven concept.

Rehabilitation? Maybe in the f-ing grave.

I think all criminals should be killed ... :)

I think you have a lot in common with Muslim extremists and Iran.

[Kilgor]

I think you have a lot in common with Muslim extremists and Iran.

I think the concept for forfeiting your life if you murderous acts against the society isnt a unusual one.

It isnt about revenge, its akin to removing rabid dogs that run around attacking people.

[Lt. James Anderson]

Most ot those moralists have more concern for a crminal than a victim. For me, it is opposite.

urbanassualt,
You're close. Read *** versus Civilization by Elmer Pendell.

f'd-up parents = f'd-up children
So sterilization would be a part of the solution - YES.


I think you have a lot in common with Muslim extremists and Iran.

I can live with that. They are not all bad afterall ... ;)

[urbanassualt]

Most ot those moralists have more concern for a crminal than a victim. For me, it is opposite.

urbanassualt,
You're close. Read *** versus Civilization by Elmer Pendell.

f'd-up parents = f'd-up children
So sterilization would be a part of the solution - YES.

Anderson,

I, though rather quickly, have tried to gather the basic meanings of Elmer Pendell's book which you had referred to me, *** Versus Civilization.

You're summary ("f'd-up parents = f'd-up children") was included, but was of course supplemented by other theories.

Pendell's basic message was that "To know [how a civilization comes into being] you must be aware of two prerequisites . . . namely leadership and problem-solving ability on the part of the general public. They are necessary not only as preludes to a civilization but as a continuing requirement for its survival." The survival of a civilization, according to Pendell, is dependent upon its population's ability to provide leadership and problem-solving capability. I agree with this statement. These traits are undoubtedly necessary for the advancement of a particular civilization.

Pendell reinforced this message with three claims:
1.) Where whole segments of population are bungling their problems, the chances are not only that the leaders are inadequate as leaders, but that the masses are ... biologically incapable of producing wise leaders.
2.) Essential to wise leadership are high quality brains. The only source of brains is heredity.
3.) Problem-makers reproduce in greater percentage than problem-solvers, and in so doing cause the decline of civilization.

The first being that "Where whole segments of population, either geographic segments or classes within an area, are bungling their problems, the chances are not only that the leaders are inadequate as leaders, but that the masses are mostly composed of far-down specimens of humanity, biologically incapable of producing wise leaders." I found this to be an interesting conclusion. The problems of a population lie with the inability of the region's leaders to provide adequate leadership. This is a fairly true and straightforward statement. But Pendell suggests that the fault of a region with leaders unable to provide adequate leadership lies not with the leaders themselves, but with the population itself, which over time has lowered its human standards and has become unable to "biologically produce wise leaders."

In his second claim, Pendell suggests that the "only source of brain is heredity." Well, in a way, this is true. For example, my brain came from the unification of a man and woman (my father and women) which produced a child. The source of my brain can be traced to heredity. However, Pendell does not refer to the 'brain' in the physical sense, but in the cognitive abilities it possesses. According to Pendell, my abilities as a human and the usefulness of my brain is limited to that of my parents'. If my father had poor math skills, so would I have the same fate with mathematics. If my mother was a brutal baby-killer, I would undoubtedly have the same urges. Do you think this is true? Does anyone?

The third claim attributes the fall of civilization to the uncanny abilities of a problem-causer to reproduce faster and in greater percentage than a problem-solver. Hmmm. I'll leave that for the audience to decide, as I have no evidence to suggest otherwise. I'm not sure how to truly classify humanity into two groups of (A) Problem-solvers and (B) Problem-makers.

...though Pendell uses intelligence as a huge factor: "Since civilization is an accumulation it must necessarily lag behind the concentration of brain power on which it depends . . . [Since] the manifestations of a civilization, its visible structures, are an accumulation, they may linger on for decades after the average intellect, the inherited brain power, has declined below the level that would have been necessary to initiate it.
In short, if capable, intelligent people had most babies, society would see its problems and solve them."

Pendell’s solution was to have the state regulate reproduction according to eugenic principles, which translates into sterilization of ‘inferior’ humans.

I can only hope that perhaps you had only skimmed through the book or had somehow missed its meaning. From what I was able to gather, the book approved the murder sterilization of 'inferior' humans - those who were not intellectual enough to provide a society with able leaders. Surely you cannot be suggesting the sterilization of the so-called (B) Problem-makers of society as well as their descendants?

[Lt. James Anderson]

How about getting the book, reading it and drawing your own conclusions (instead of gathering somebody elses off the internet)?

Too hard?

[20070627]

death solves all problems, no man, no problem.
stalin

[urbanassualt]

How about getting the book, reading it and drawing your own conclusions (instead of gathering somebody elses off the internet)?

Too hard?

Actually, for the purpose of an on-line discussion - yes. What I did was Google search the Title and Author of the book you referred. I made my own conclusions based upon the quotations from the book which I was supplied with. Interestingly, my response clearly indicates what I had 'ripped off from the internet' with "quotation marks"...

If I had referred a book to you while emphasizing one viewpoint on Death Penalty VS. Crime, would you...run to the closest library, spend however many tens of hours reading the suggested book, while not daring to respond until you had read every page?

Yeah, me either.


Or was your response just a clever way to get me to not respond? Until I had read the entire book, of course.

[Lt. James Anderson]

Neither.
Regardless ... it's a good book to read if you like reading.
Not a waste of time for sure.

[urbanassualt]

While reading through a book written by the Dalai Lama (The Path to Tranquility) I came across a passage about his views on the death penalty. Here it is:

"I am absolutely opposed to the death penalty. My predecessor abolished it in Tibet. Today I find it unbelievable that it persists in large countries like China and India. They still kill people in the name of justice in the county of Mahatma Gandhi! In the very land where the Buddha taught!
The death penalty is pure violence, a barbaric and useless violence. Dangerous even, because it can only lead to other acts of violence - as all violence does. The supreme punishment ought to be a life sentence, and one without brutality. (248)"
The Path to Tranquility. New York: The Penguin Group, 1998. 248.

Just for another viewpoint on the subject...

I, personally, am unsure on the subject of the death penalty. Of course, there are times - after learning of horrible or brutal crimes upon the innocent - that I desire for the perpetrator to be punished to the ultimate extent and removed from the face of this earth. Other times I hope that our justice system will be able to provide justice and security to our country without engaging in acts of violence itself. Perhaps the death penalty should be reserved for only the most vile of criminals.

[joe mama]

I have no problem with people opposed to the death penalty because the justice system might make mistakes or it might be applied unfairly. But anyone who thinks it's "wrong" because it's cruel or whatever needs to take a good, hard, honest look at exactly what locking a person in a cage for life (or close to it) TRULY means. I'd argue that life is even more cruel. People get hung up on the idea of death. Get over it.
If a criminal kidnapped a loved one of yours and held them in a cage for 30 or 40 or 50 years until they died, you wouldn't think that just as wrong if not even more wrong than if they killed them?

I think deep down a lot of people who oppose the death penalty simply can't face (or refuse to face) the fact that a significant number of criminals are violent vicious animals. These people see themselves as oh-so-enlightened and advanced and either think everyone else is like that and is fundamentally good, or they think that acknowledging that there are people who are nothing more than vicious animals somehow reflects badly on them.

A violent rabid dog should be disposed of. That has nothing to do with YOUR happy friendly family dog and what a good dog he is.