Liberals

[spade216]

I have quite a few friends in the military at this time, and the majority of them, like me, are leftist loving liberals. One of them is even a ranger and just got back from a three month tour in Afghanistan.

The thing that gets me is that alot of them tell me about how they get made fun of over their liberal ideals by their fellow soldiers. Now I'm not saying they get all that offended or anything over that fact, but it seems that most people in the military expect you to have a conservative mind-set, which ironically is also expected by some on the extreme-left.

For example, I want to join the national guard next summer between semesters, and on a visit to my recruiters office last week there was a protest outside on the sidewalk. Whenever I went in, it kinda hurt to hear the recruiters/some other people there talk about how they thought the police should beat/take away all the protestors. Then I got some real dirty looks when I mentioned some of those kids were my friends, and how it wasnt only the soldier that gave us our rights and freedoms, but also the activist that makes sure the government doesnt abuse/take away those rights from the average citizen.

I suppose this is a big pointless rant, but i just want to discuss why it seems that people who are for a society free of judgment based on ****** orientation, excersise their rights, and have some strong socio-economic ideas seem to get labeled as anti-american? I mean isnt that what our great republic is supposed to be about? democracy and freedom?

I have been lurking on these boards for a good year, and it seems that alot of the left leaning people around here get called communist/anti-american quite often. i mean, communists arent liberal, the constitution....now thats what i call liberal.

thanks if you read this.

[mudbunny]

Lemme guess, you're gay and are concerned about possible repurcussions should your higher command find out?

Am I right?

[pascalywood]

Lemme guess, you're gay and are concerned about possible repurcussions should your higher command find out?

Am I right?

DOTW winner?

[spade216]

Lemme guess, you're gay and are concerned about possible repurcussions should your higher command find out?

Am I right?

heh, no im not gay. but i do believe gays should be free to openly serve, hell the first american marine injured in iraq was a homo******.

however, i did expect this kind of reply. i guess its why i held off registering so long. thanks for catering to my expectations.

[mudbunny]

heh, no im not gay. but i do believe gays should be free to openly serve, hell the first american marine injured in iraq was a homo******.

however, i did expect this kind of reply. i guess its why i held off registering so long. thanks for catering to my expectations.

I was being dead serious when I made that remark, not flippant. I'm not passing judgment on you but if you were to enlist then you should be fully aware that you might encounter people who are not as accepting, should they find out or were you to tell them. What exactly were you expecting with that initial post? I'm curious.

[ronnieraygun]

http://kapgar.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/miscackbar.jpg

[pascalywood]

welcome to mp.net spade. nevermind the neocons like mudbunny. i guess im a liberal too since i believe in equality and hate assholes like mud

[Danik]

heh, no im not gay. but i do believe gays should be free to openly serve, hell the first american marine injured in iraq was a homo******.

however, i did expect this kind of reply. i guess its why i held off registering so long. thanks for catering to my expectations.

You are new. Learn to take a joke.

[mudbunny]

welcome to mp.net spade. nevermind the neocons like mudbunny. i guess im a liberal too since i believe in equality and hate assholes like mud

LOL, dude, what in god's name are you ranting about? Take a valium err something.

[Hollis]

I don't think what you discribe is particularly liberal or conservative. What makes a person liberal or conservative I think is mostly how the media portrays the two. People seem to be more single issue orientated, that does not define a person as a liberal or conservative necessarily.

Most people I know are pragmatic, regardless on how they might identify themselves as a liberal, conservative or ?? A term in they you in our state congress is "good R or good D", meaning a person regradless of party affilitation will do what is best for the state. Hardline party members are not respected so much.

A thinking liberal, IMHO, is better than a non thinking conservative, and a thinking conservative is better than a non thnking liberal. Also a person who actually cares for the benefit of all of society is better than one who does not, regardless of any labels. Having good honest different views is important for our society to progress and be better than it was.

Partisan politics does not serve the interest of the people, but that is our political reality.

BTW ignore mudbunny he is a dweeb.

[spade216]

well i was serious about not being gay, i dont even know how thats pertaining to the topic at hand.

Im aware that a good amount of the people i may end serving with, may not share my own political beliefs. but the thing i was trying to get across, is that theres this stigma that only the right wingers join the military, and that the leftest are commie pigs that hate the military. in reality plenty of those on the left want to serve their country, and have hope of making it better.

we dont believe the greatest threat is from the outside, but from within. rome didnt fall until it had killed itself from the inside out with corruption and fiscal problems.

[Hollis]

I was being dead serious when I made that remark, not flippant. I'm not passing judgment on you but if you were to enlist then you should be fully aware that you might encounter people who are not as accepting, should they find out or were you to tell them. What exactly were you expecting with that initial post? I'm curious.


Being accepted isn't the issue, it is tolerance. There are all sorts in the military. No one is accepted by everyone.

[mudbunny]

well i was serious about not being gay, i dont even know how thats pertaining to the topic at hand.

Im aware that a good amount of the people i may end serving with, may not share my own political beliefs. but the thing i was trying to get across, is that theres this stigma that only the right wingers join the military, and that the leftest are commie pigs that hate the military. in reality plenty of those on the left want to serve their country, and have hope of making it better.

we dont believe the greatest threat is from the outside, but from within. rome didnt fall until it had killed itself from the inside out with corruption and fiscal problems.

I was just being an a$$, welcome to the board.

[pascalywood]

it really worked mud, i was sure you were an asshole ;)

[mudbunny]

Being accepted isn't the issue, it is tolerance. There are all sorts in the military. No one is accepted by everyone.

Well, if Junior is looking for a "liberal" fraternity, chances are pretty good he AINT gonna find it in the military. Atleast not in the army or Marine Corps. I'm just trying to save him some time. You want an "open" society, go to college.

[mudbunny]

it really worked mud, i was sure you were an asshole ;)

Oh, I'm deff an a-hole, the only question is am i YOUR kind of a-hole.

[spade216]

I don't think what you discribe is particularly liberal or conservative. What makes a person liberal or conservative I think is mostly how the media portrays the two. People seem to be more single issue orientated, that does not define a person as a liberal or conservative necessarily.

Most people I know are pragmatic, regardless on how they might identify themselves as a liberal, conservative or ?? A term in they you in our state congress is "good R or good D", meaning a person regradless of party affilitation will do what is best for the state. Hardline party members are not respected so much.

A thinking liberal, IMHO, is better than a non thinking conservative, and a thinking conservative is better than a non thnking liberal. Also a person who actually cares for the benefit of all of society is better than one who does not, regardless of any labels. Having good honest different views is important for our society to progress and be better than it was.

Partisan politics does not serve the interest of the people, but that is our political reality.

BTW ignore mudbunny he is a dweeb.


I agree with you, I guess I just dont know how to differentiate between peoples different ideals/morals without using partisan labels. though i am glad for your input, thanks for explaining things more eloquently.

[mudbunny]

I agree with you, I guess I just dont know how to differentiate between peoples different ideals/morals without using partisan labels. though i am glad for your input, thanks for explaining things more eloquently.

Just be as open minded towards them as you would expect them to be towards you or your beliefs.

[spade216]

Well, if Junior is looking for a "liberal" fraternity, chances are pretty good he AINT gonna find it in the military. Atleast not in the army or Marine Corps. I'm just trying to save him some time. You want an "open" society, go to college.

I am in college, and I dont want everyone to cater to my ideals. however, i dont think they should be preaching the idea of putting others in prison for practicing the rights that they themselves are putting their life on the line for.

now im aware that not everyone in the military is saying, "bash those hippie kid's heads in". but if you dont believe in burning an American flag in protest, than you should be equally as disturbed if someone is talking about how we should not let people protest in a street.

[ArmyJonHall]

The thing that gets me is that alot of them tell me about how they get made fun of over their liberal ideals by their fellow soldiers...
It's no wonder your liberal friends in the military get a little **** put on them- military discipline and liberalism are, by and large, on opposite ends of the social scale. If you had the kind of liberalism you're talking about in the military we would still be fighting with trigger locks on the rifles and trying to end wars by trying to invite the enemy to concerts and sleep-outs.


Whenever I went in, it kinda hurt to hear the recruiters/some other people there talk about how they thought the police should beat/take away all the protestors. Then I got some real dirty looks when I mentioned some of those kids were my friends, and how it wasnt only the soldier that gave us our rights and freedoms, but also the activist that makes sure the government doesnt abuse/take away those rights from the average citizen.
And how exactly did you expect the recruiters to act towards a group who were irritating them and making their job harder by a factor of 10? "Oh wow these people are great! We should get these guys in for coffee Bob. You want to go out back and check to see if we have any biscuits?"

The thing that gets me about liberals, and liberal protestors in general is, while their intentions may be good, they have little to no understanding of the whole picture or have little to no idea what the consequences of their proposed actions would be. They grab any little piece of possibly incriminating evidence and expand it out 100 times, while ignoring overly whelming contradictory evidence- aka Loose Change.


I suppose this is a big pointless rant, but i just want to discuss why it seems that people who are for a society free of judgment based on ****** orientation, excersise their rights, and have some strong socio-economic ideas seem to get labeled as anti-american? I mean isnt that what our great republic is supposed to be about? democracy and freedom
Who says only the liberals are for a judgement free society? Who says the neocons want to quash democracy and freedom? Thats the problem with liberals. They make themselves a part of a self-electing elite which, simply by the fact that think they care more than rest of us who only care as much as we need to, takes the moral high ground and inflates their own ranks with people who aren't in fact liberal, but just do kind things. Winnie Mandela for instance.


I am in college, and I dont want everyone to cater to my ideals. however, i dont think they should be preaching the idea of putting others in prison for practicing the rights that they themselves are putting their life on the line for.
What the hell are you talking about there? Who's been put in jail for what?


now im aware that not everyone in the military is saying, "bash those hippie kid's heads in". but if you dont believe in burning an American flag in protest, than you should be equally as disturbed if someone is talking about how we should not let people protest in a street.
Now there's an explosive sentence. You're giving tacit approval for flag burning. I'd pull your head in if I were you.

As for being disturbed about street protests being canned, no I would no be alarmed. There are numerous other legal ways of making your opinions known and protesting is usually the one that ends up with cars being tipped over and shop fronts smashed up. When was the last time you saw a congressional hearing end up setting cars on fire and clashing with riot police?

[AZRON]

well i was serious about not being gay, i dont even know how thats pertaining to the topic at hand.

Im aware that a good amount of the people i may end serving with, may not share my own political beliefs. but the thing i was trying to get across, is that theres this stigma that only the right wingers join the military, and that the leftest are commie pigs that hate the military. in reality plenty of those on the left want to serve their country, and have hope of making it better.

we dont believe the greatest threat is from the outside, but from within. rome didnt fall until it had killed itself from the inside out with corruption and fiscal problems.

When I served my politics were my personal business.

As to ****** preference I preferred that be personal business .
What do the Gay activists want a mandatory label above your name tag
saying I fvck women or I fvck men ?

[spade216]

loose change is not really liberal, its funny....and is just there to make people question things. but I dont put any stock into it, its just bullpoop.

also, whos to say liberals arent for using force? However, it should only be done as a last resort. no one wants our honorable soldiers coming home in boxes or missing limbs for the wrong reason.....whatever happened to train for war, pray for peace?

lastly, the big picture to me personally....is the effect our current policies are gonna have on future generations. dont get me wrong, if i had to go to iraq..i would...i would do whatever job i was trained to, but I don't think its helping us in the long run. its creating a training ground for terrorists who can get the experience needed to knock down the few democracies in the middle east (lebannon/israel).

[ArmyJonHall]

Right well first up I think you should fill in some personal info there Spade. Something about you doesn't add up. You read like someone trying to bait MP.net into a reaction. Seeing as this is about how you would like to join the military, I don't think its out of the question to get some background details about you.

[spade216]

Right well first up I think you should fill in some personal info there Spade. Something about you doesn't add up. You read like someone trying to bait MP.net into a reaction. Seeing as this is about how you would like to join the military, I don't think its out of the question to get some background details about you.


like what? A/S/L? heh

im at UF in gainesville, anthropology major. I plan to start ROTC this fall, join the guard next summer, and eventually, hopefully, be an officer in the active duty army....and see where that takes me. I mean, i dont need to bait MP.net into a reaction, look at all the other board conversations.....and theres quite a few flame wars going on, atleast thats what it seems like to me.

[kamaz]

Lemme guess, you're gay and are concerned about possible repurcussions should your higher command find out?

Am I right?



mudbunny made the beer spill out of my nose lol.

[kamaz]

just FYI, this explains where the terms liberals and conservatives comes from




The division of the human family into its two distinct branches occurred some 10,000 years ago, a few hundred years after the flood... Humans coexisted as members of small bands of nomadic hunter/gatherers.


In the pivotal event of societal evolution, beer was invented. This epochal innovation was both the foundation of modern civilization and the occasion of the great bifurcation of humanity into its two distinct subgroups: Liberals and Conservatives.


Once beer was discovered, it required grain, and that was the beginning of agriculture. Neither the glass bottle or aluminum can had yet been invented, so it was necessary to stick pretty close to the brewery. That's how villages were formed.


Some men spent their days killing animals to barbecue at night while they were drinking beer. This was the beginning of the conservative movement.


Other men who were weaker and less skilled at hunting, learned how to live off conservatives by showing up for the BBQs every night and doing women's work like sewing, fetching and hair dressing. This was the beginning of the liberal movement. Later, some of the liberals actually became women.


Liberal achievements include the domestication of cats, invention of group therapy and democratic voting to see how to divide the beer and meat that the conservatives provided. Women were not interested in democracy at that time because most of them were still women back then, and the conservatives fed them.


Conservatives are symbolized by the largest, most powerful land animal on earth. Liberals are symbolized by the jackass.


Modern Liberals like imported beer (they add lime), but most prefer white wine or foreign water in a bottle. They eat raw fish but like their beef well done. Sushi, tofu, and french food are on liberal menus. Their women have more testosterone than the men. Liberals like deviant *** and want others to like it too. Their first successful city governments were Sodom and Gomorrah.


Most social workers, personal injury attorneys, journalists, and group therapists are Liberals. Liberals invented the designated hitter rule in baseball because it wasn't "fair" to make the pitcher also bat.


Conservatives drink domestic beer. They eat red meat, and still provide for their women. Conservatives are big-game hunters, rodeo cowboys, lumber-jacks, construction workers, medical doctors, police officers, corporate executives, soldiers, athletes, and generally anyone who works productively outside government. Conservatives who own companies hire other conservatives who want to work for a living.


Liberals do not produce anything. They like to "govern" the producers and decide what is to be done with the production. Liberals believe Europeans are more enlightened than Americans. That is why most of the liberals just stayed in Europe when conservatives were coming to America.

The American cowboy, of course, is your basic, full-bore Conservative. A hundred years ago, an Englishman visiting Texas was attempting to find the owner of a huge cattle ranch. He rode up to one of the ranch hands, and inquired, "Pardon me, but could you perhaps tell me where I might locate your master?" To which the cowboy replied, "That sumbitch ain't been born yet".


So, what'll it be? Wine or Beer? Domestic or Imported?

[2Sheds_Jackson]

The thing that gets me is that alot of them tell me about how they get made fun of over their liberal ideals by their fellow soldiers. Now I'm not saying they get all that offended or anything over that fact, but it seems that most people in the military expect you to have a conservative mind-set, which ironically is also expected by some on the extreme-left.

Don't know why you'd be surprised by this. The military is the tool of "the man", and nearly all individual choice is taken away so that one can do "the man's" bidding. In terms of a lifestyle, the military is about as un-leftist as you can get. Therefore, wouldn't it make sense for people to expect that the person doing that job supports that mindset more than the average joe?



I suppose this is a big pointless rant, but i just want to discuss why it seems that people who are for a society free of judgment based on ****** orientation, excersise their rights, and have some strong socio-economic ideas seem to get labeled as anti-american? I mean isnt that what our great republic is supposed to be about? democracy and freedom?

I suppose that would depend upon who you ask. IMHO such an interpretation is very superficial and not an accurate representation of how we came to be, and what keeps the nation together.

What is a "society free of judgment based on ****** orientation" ? Says who? The last time I looked, freedom worked both ways - the freedom to gay it up, and the freedom to judge that lifestyle negatively. We get to judge the living sh*t outta people for all kinds of things every day - that's freedom. In fact, our prisons are full of people that our professional judges have found to be embracing their personal freedom a bit too much.



I have been lurking on these boards for a good year, and it seems that alot of the left leaning people around here get called communist/anti-american quite often. i mean, communists arent liberal, the constitution....now thats what i call liberal.


Well, I'd say the US Constitution was pretty liberal when it was written, but not any more. JFK was considered fairly liberal in his day, but his policies would be viewed as a staunchly conservative today. A strict interpretation of the US Constitution makes it a very conservative document by today's standards.

[spade216]

Blue Moon please.

[kamaz]

Blue Moon please.


Blue Moon is a fine American product, styled after the Belgian white lagers. good choice.

[spade216]

its the hippie's choice beer.
and mine, though since its a bit expensive on my student budget, i dont mind bush most nights. :D

[Kaapeli]

Don't know why you'd be surprised by this. The military is the tool of "the man", and nearly all individual choice is taken away so that one can do "the man's" bidding. In terms of a lifestyle, the military is about as un-leftist as you can get. Therefore, wouldn't it make sense for people to expect that the person doing that job supports that mindset more than the average joe?

You're thinking about hippies now (anti-establishment, individualism, anti-militarism), not "leftism". Most "leftist" ideologies are actually very authoritarian, anti-individualistic and often even highly militaristic (think communism and national socialism for more extreme examples). None of fundamental beliefs of most leftist ideologies are opposed to or incompatible with the military bar some anarchist movements.

[el borracho]

I feel you Spade. Being in intel, it's definitely not characteristic of the rest of the military. Here, many, if not most, would be labeled as liberal. That word has already been pointed out as a misnomer. A lot of us "liberals" actually have fairly conservative mindsets, but also have a powerful disdain for the current administration. We still "salute and execute" when told, but we try to resist drinking the kool-aid (so to speak) when it comes up. It's awkward when conservatives act like they're a kindred spirit, only because they vote republican and you're in the military. Despite what people may think, or what the media portrays, the military will always be a reflection of society. You'll have the liberals and conservatives, you'll have those that question authority, those that are great team players, and those that are thoughtless tools. There are the upstanding citizens and natural leaders...and there are some that should have been put behind bars instead of being allowed to join. Unfortunate, but true.

[kamaz]

its the hippie's choice beer.
and mine, though since its a bit expensive on my student budget, i dont mind bush most nights. :D

my college brew of choice was Bass and Pabst Blue Ribbon (tastes like piss but cheaper than water)

[spade216]

the drunk guy,

thats what i heard. my recruiter told me the hardest thing about boot camp wouldnt be the DIs, but some of the fellow Pvts that would be tools and would get the whole group in trouble.

one of my friends went the route of intel in the air force, but i would like to be an 11Bravo....thanks for some input

[Gat0r]

First off Go Gators!!!! One of my best friends is a Marine Reservists he just got done serving 7 months in Iraq,he isnt exactly "pro Bush" didnt think we shouldve gone there in the first place, but he did his time and served honorably, I'm a moderate Independent that despises the Bush Administration but I am still looking at Marine OCS as an option after I graduate

[bruiserau]

Right, Left, Conservative, Liberal, Socialist, Anrchist, Capitalist, Communist.. So many fkn terms flying around I don't even know what we are arguing about anymore!!!!

From a military point of view, as long as you do the job you are trained to do to the best of your ability and don't try and sprout any of your political/ideological BS onto me, we'll get along just fine!!

Politics and Religion!! AHHHHHHHHHH:fork:... Lucky I live in a country where noone really gives a **** hahaha!

[2Sheds_Jackson]

You're thinking about hippies now (anti-establishment, individualism, anti-militarism), not "leftism". Most "leftist" ideologies are actually very authoritarian, anti-individualistic and often even highly militaristic (think communism and national socialism for more extreme examples). None of fundamental beliefs of most leftist ideologies are opposed to or incompatible with the military bar some anarchist movements.

I agree and disagree. Remember that we're talking about the American left here. In practice, most American leftists don't fall neatly in line with classic definitions of leftism. American liberals are (admittedly painting in broad strokes here): nearly always anti-war, view war as a machination of corporate interests, reject traditional definitions of family which they regard as oppressively narrow, are oversocialized (create policies out of guilt they have been taught to feel for their own behaviors/background), support governmental sanction of institutionalized racism/sexism (see oversocialization) and often reject traditional ideals of American morality.

I agree that ultimately, a hard-line leftist regime would pretty much amount to a militarist cradle-to-grave police state in which a massive central government crushes the individual - but the American definition of "left" is a little different.

[JJC]

I'm so confused, what am I if I don't like the anti-war, peace on earth type, 9/11 truth people, but I do tolerate gays, tolerate and accept different cultures and melting pot dream, believe in strong military, support the war on terrorism, and don't like political correctness, abortions after 3 weeks is murder for me, and 1st and 2nd amendments are fundemental?

Is there more to being a liberal or conservative than issues on abortion, religion, and gun control?

[bruiserau]

I'm so confused, what am I if I don't like the anti-war, peace on earth type, 9/11 truth people, but I do tolerate gays, tolerate and accept different cultures and melting pot dream, believe in strong military, support the war on terrorism, and don't like political correctness, abortions after 3 weeks is murder for me, and 1st and 2nd amendments are fundemental?

Is there more to being a liberal or conservative than issues on abortion, religion, and gun control?

Do you really need to be "something"?

[JJC]

I think in today's American politics you have to belong to a label as it helps....

[The Punisher]

I think in today's American politics you have to belong to a label as it helps....
You sound pretty conservative to me. The only thing contradictory to that I see in your post is that you're pro-gay. Even with that you don't have to be with the majority of the party on every issue. Being conservative doesn't mean that you don't like different cultures in America. It's that most of us don't want continued illegal immigration and then some on the left say we're anti-immigrant.

[JJC]

Well I'm from NYC and us yappies here for some reason think that hard core red states are less accepting of different cultural, ethnic groups, compared to blue states. I don't know why people think like this......

[AZRON]

the drunk guy,

thats what i heard. my recruiter told me the hardest thing about boot camp wouldnt be the DIs, but some of the fellow Pvts that would be tools and would get the whole group in trouble.

one of my friends went the route of intel in the air force, but i would like to be an 11Bravo....thanks for some input

Are you discussing joining the U.S. Army or the USMC ?

You stated Army but used USMC terms such as boot camp which is Jarhead talk for Army basic training.
Then you used DI which is Jarhead talk for Army drill sargent so Who's on first ?

[el borracho]

Someone who is technically still a civilian won't know those nuances until after they join. If he stated Army, I think he means Army.

[ArmyJonHall]

I'm so confused, what am I if I don't like the anti-war, peace on earth type, 9/11 truth people, but I do tolerate gays, tolerate and accept different cultures and melting pot dream, believe in strong military, support the war on terrorism, and don't like political correctness, abortions after 3 weeks is murder for me, and 1st and 2nd amendments are fundemental?
You're a political aberration- you're normal.

[Freedom-Fries]

http://kapgar.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/miscackbar.jpg whats that about ?

[ArmyJonHall]

whats that about ?
It usually includes this-

http://photo.gangus.com/d/26788-2/ackbar.jpg

[Rictor]

Militaries, and the people drawn to them, are generally nationalist in character - always have been, always will be. And in the US, being a nationalist is most readily associated with being a conservative. If you happened to be in Cuba or China a few decades ago, it would be the opposite, yet inspired by the same spirit of nationalism.

Although even in the US, there are tons of military and ex-military guys I've read about who are on the left, anything from moderates to waaay out there anarchists and socialists. For some people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Goff), serving in the military can make you redder than a firetruck.

[AZRON]

Someone who is technically still a civilian won't know those nuances until after they join. If he stated Army, I think he means Army.

His statement is paraphrasing an Army recruiter who speaks like a Jarhead !

Most questionable .

[Durandal]

So, what'll it be? Wine or Beer? Domestic or Imported?

Or, you could simply have a warm glass of SHUT THE ƒUCK UP.

I'm sooo tired of email internet jokes being used as an excuse for ignorance and lack of education when it comes to civics, politics, and responsibility.

Spade, listen, the military, in many ways reflects our culture, more now, than ever before. In part because it is voluntary and in part because our society has changed as well over the years.

People throw around the concept of "liberal" and "conservative" as if they know what they mean.

The problem in this world is that we tend to try to pigeon hole people into little labels that even the most idiotic and least attentive person can grasp.

In many ways, MP.net represents the world as much as anything else.

Durandal

A member of MP.net that is pro-choice, pro-life, has a gay family member, is married and thinks his gay family member should be able to do the same, is adopting and thinks his gay family member should be able to do the same, owns a crap load of guns and a gun range, makes his own WINE and Beer and is VERY pro-alcohol, used to smoke but quit and doesn't mind if other people smoke so long as they are courteous about it, thinks the government should be as small as possible, tax the least amount allowable, pro-god, pro-evolution, anti-idiot, pro-business, pro-environment, pro-military, pro-ass whipping when it deserves it, pro-democray, anti-terrorism, pro-state, pro-republic, anti-racism, pro-diversity, anti-pro-gm crop and pro-natural food, anti-human caused global warming, pro-natural global warming, strict Constitutionalist, anti-brussel sprouts, pro-rhubarb, anti-politician, pro-gutting of the political system and starting over with common everyday people, pro-dog, anti-cat, pro-flag burning, anti-morons who burn flags, pro-we have a responsibility to help out in a our community in times of need or to help the needy, anti-selfish morons who think the opposite and those that think they should force those same morons to help and pro-teaching of civic duties so that when I say "I think James Madison had it right" they actually know who I am talking about and why.

[Hollis]

Durandel, well said.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

A member of MP.net that is pro-choice, pro-life, has a gay family member, is married and thinks his gay family member should be able to do the same, is adopting and thinks his gay family member should be able to do the same, owns a crap load of guns and a gun range, makes his own WINE and Beer and is VERY pro-alcohol, used to smoke but quit and doesn't mind if other people smoke so long as they are courteous about it, thinks the government should be as small as possible, tax the least amount allowable, pro-god, pro-evolution, anti-idiot, pro-business, pro-environment, pro-military, pro-ass whipping when it deserves it, pro-democray, anti-terrorism, pro-state, pro-republic, anti-racism, pro-diversity, anti-pro-gm crop and pro-natural food, anti-human caused global warming, pro-natural global warming, strict Constitutionalist, anti-brussel sprouts, pro-rhubarb, anti-politician, pro-gutting of the political system and starting over with common everyday people, pro-dog, anti-cat, pro-flag burning, anti-morons who burn flags, pro-we have a responsibility to help out in a our community in times of need or to help the needy, anti-selfish morons who think the opposite and those that think they should force those same morons to help and pro-teaching of civic duties so that when I say "I think James Madison had it right" they actually know who I am talking about and why.

Ahem. Well, y'know, this may be why the libertarian party is the perpetual "also-ran". As an ideology that can actually be implemented through legislation, those views suck, extra bad. For example - and I'm just picking an obvious one out here, your "pro-diversity" beliefs contradict your small government beliefs. You can't have both. You've either got to allow the government to be intrusive for diversity's sake, or keep the government out, and accept the fact that some people aren't concerned with diversity...right?

We humans tend to bunch together to get things done. While I agree that it's hard to find any individual who is in lock-step with any political party...I think the reality is that if we'd actually like to accomplish anything beyond flapping our arms in the wind, we've got to join up with whichever side most closely matches our views. I think that's probably both the reason why we do tend to get things done...and why our political system is so divisive. It's kind of self-polarizing. We could splinter into 20 different parties so that we all join up with a group that better represents each of us...and then of course we'd never get anything done. I dunno maybe that would be a good thing.

[Jobu]

the activist that makes sure the government doesnt abuse/take away those rights from the average citizen.

Wow, all this time I thought it was the courts.

I guess that guy in the leotard holding up the "Free Palestine" placard really is a hero!

[haze99]

To JJC, the USA is a multi-ethnic nation, not mutli-cultural or multi-governmental. For example, we allow women to hold jobs and testify in court. We take care of the poor and don't allow them to wallow in the alleyways in filth.
We have ethnically diverse cities, like NYC, Chicago and LA. Though this is not indictive of the entire nation. So you should not expect the rest of the USA to be like one of these large metropolitan areas. (Nor do I expect NYC to become Montgomery, Alabama!)
Sure, I do not want to bar immigrants from entering the USA, though as with everything in this day and age. (crime, welfare, health care, public eductation & Islamic Terrorism) It needs to be regulated. If we allowed everyone to enter the USA, it would be a third-world nation real quick!

[ElHombre]

Is there more to being a liberal or conservative than issues on abortion, religion, and gun control?

It's quite simple. If you do not support Every. Single. Conservatice. Principle, conservatives will automatically label you as a liberal.

By your own admission, you tolerate gays and cultures other than 'white' ones. Therefore, you are now a liberal. :lol:

[Durandal]

Ahem. Well, y'know, this may be why the libertarian party is the perpetual "also-ran". As an ideology that can actually be implemented through legislation, those views suck, extra bad. For example - and I'm just picking an obvious one out here, your "pro-diversity" beliefs contradict your small government beliefs. You can't have both. You've either got to allow the government to be intrusive for diversity's sake, or keep the government out, and accept the fact that some people aren't concerned with diversity...right?

Not at all. You can have both. Your assume that diversity is forced.

[D-gin]

Durandel, well said.
X2.....


Durandal just made the first MP.net post in which I agree with everything that was written.

[JJC]

To JJC, I do not want to bar immigrants from entering the USA, though as with everything in this day and age. (crime, welfare, health care, public eductation & Islamic Terrorism) It needs to be regulated. If we allowed everyone to enter the USA, it would be a third-world nation real quick!
I'm with ya, I support tough border enforcement, if i means 12 feet high fences with watch towers do it. I understand that local economies can only handle so much in terms of education, healthcare, criminal justice etc. I want our gov. to start rounding up all the illegals in gangs such as MS13, Latn Kings etc and send them back, we have our own to deal with. But I also think that we can't and shouldn't round up every illegal because that will damage our economy, and it's not right to do it to families that lived here for decades.... (Immigration issue is a whole another topic...)

My multi cluturalism point was not about immigration issue, it's just that around here we tend to think that real hardcore conservative red states are not so receptive to non locals, foreign born Americans. But I hope it's just a stereotype...

[WARPIG]

I know a quite a few liberal soldiers myself. Assuming that most soldiers make generalizations of liberals is a generalization. Many liberals look at soldiers like a bunch of dumb pawns. We assume grunts are grunts because they can't do better. Yet.. most of the grunts I serve with outscore our more technical peers.
Libs are looked down on by most military because of who seems to represent you in the media. Michael Moore, Cindy Sheehan, John Kerry, John Edwards,Jane Fonda, Rosie.. I mean really.. are you seriously surprised? Take two random people. One turns out to be a leftist liberal, the other a right wingnut conservative. Which one is most likely to send a care package to soldiers serving in Iraq? Which one is more likely to protest a military installation for the war? Ever wonder why libs always protest outside military buildings as if soldiers are responsible for waging war or that we'd just change our mind and join the protest? Homo******s protest the military and the "God hates fags" family protests our funerals. Conservatives right? Who is more likely to write a patriotic song and donate the proceeds to military families? Kanye West?

Go ahead and act all surprised. This couldn't possibly be a post for attention.

[ElHombre]

Take two random people. One turns out to be a leftist liberal, the other a right wingnut conservative. Which one is most likely to send a care package to soldiers serving in Iraq?

But you're not going to get that sort of thing in real life. Pick a typical American citizen and you'll find that they don't trust the Bush admin and want the troops out of Iraq. Is that something that a liberal or conservative would support? Or is it the case that those in charge of our troops no longer deserve the honor and the US is waiting for the folks in DC to come to terms with that fact?

[I deleted the examples for reasons of brevity]

[Durandal]

Who is more likely to write a patriotic song and donate the proceeds to military families?

People that care...left or right is irrelevant. The people that are sending the stuff are probably fairly apolitical Warpig. Its wives and teachers, scouts, and woman at the Rotary Club.

To claim that supporting the troops is somehow a left vs. right issue is just as silly...I am not claiming you actually made this argument, but you get close.

Part of the the problem today is that we try to define our stations and actions in this world based on political agendas.

I am not a tree hugging hippie but I can't stand lazy asshats who toss their fast food bags, cigarette butts, and beer bottles along my farm...a mile of roadway.

Hell, I'll argue that our society is more divided between people that are lazy and people that are not.

[BrianT]

What batt is your buddy in? Being a liberal in Ranger Batt sucks. I get called a hippy SCAD(Savannah College of Art and Design) student all the time. I say who gives a ****.

[Hollis]

Durandel, you made a good point, How many Americans are actually "Political". Meaning they are actively involved in Politics. That does not mean, Just voting. They donate, they campaign, they stay current, maybe go to conventions, etc. Being registed a R or D, does not do it either.

People may identify with labels, but they have other major issues they are involved in.

[gaijinsamurai]

I don't define myself as "liberal", but I was called one quite a bit in the military, because I tend to agree with the liberals on most issues. I think you will find that if you have some education, and don't follow the Pat Robertson/Charlie Daniels/Sean Hannity/Ann Coulter/Rush Limbaugh/Bill O'Reilly agenda, you will find yourself in the minority, and it can be annoying when an officer or senior NCO spouts some stupid garbage they heard on Fox News and you have to keep your mouth shut, because they outrank you. However, my views were usually respected by most, and I found it to have actually been more tolerable than being around left-wing, politically-correct university students.

[CPL Trevoga]

Interesting thread. I've learned that I'm a dietary liberal.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Not at all. You can have both. Your assume that diversity is forced.

What? You're killin' me here. We're talking about public policy, yes? And public policy requires law. And law = forced. So "believing" in something in terms of a political agenda indeed does mean the willingness to force others to conform to some kind of standard...which they may not be willing to do. What else could it mean? That you believe in diversity for yourself? What does that mean?

Do you mean that you just support diversity for yourself - and make an effort to hire people of color etc. when you can - but that you would not in any way punish those who refuse to hire races/sexes/religions/orientations they don't like?

[WARPIG]

People that care...left or right is irrelevant. The people that are sending the stuff are probably fairly apolitical Warpig. Its wives and teachers, scouts, and woman at the Rotary Club.

To claim that supporting the troops is somehow a left vs. right issue is just as silly...I am not claiming you actually made this argument, but you get close.

Part of the the problem today is that we try to define our stations and actions in this world based on political agendas.

I am not a tree hugging hippie but I can't stand lazy asshats who toss their fast food bags, cigarette butts, and beer bottles along my farm...a mile of roadway.

Hell, I'll argue that our society is more divided between people that are lazy and people that are not.Keep in mind I was responding to the thread's original post. Most of you know I don't fit either rightwingnut nor liberal lunatic ideals any more than the next guy. But to sit and act as if you don't get why soldiers seem to like the right more is pretty weak. Fact of the matter is if you had to guess which political culture supports the troops, and which side is more likely to protest, insult, or care nothing for the troops.. I think we all know why soldiers and their families are mostly conservative. Regardless of how the war and politics is played out.. what the polls and approval rates are.. libs are less likely to take care of the soldiers. No conspiracy theory there. Yeah.. we often look through some political prism or filter when we talk about anything. But to be fair.. that is what this thread is about.

[WARPIG]

But you're not going to get that sort of thing in real life. Pick a typical American citizen and you'll find that they don't trust the Bush admin and want the troops out of Iraq. Is that something that a liberal or conservative would support? Or is it the case that those in charge of our troops no longer deserve the honor and the US is waiting for the folks in DC to come to terms with that fact?

[I deleted the examples for reasons of brevity]


Hey... look who's obsessing about Bush... again. Rather than whine about Bush or the "NeoCons" try discussing why you think so many soldiers that are in harms way, have been in Iraq, or are likely to go.. don't seem to support the "quit and run" policy that the libs and dems are selling? Try speaking about how the media mouthpieces like Rosie, Jane Fonda, Kerry, Sheehan, Edwards, etc.. are so ****e to insulting the servicemen of this country? Is that some sort of projection of not trusting the Bush administration so they find ways to take it out on soldiers? Let me guess.. they honor us by using the spit-wad politics to "bring us home" right?

One caveat.. you're right that the typical American citizen doesn't fall into the generalizations you and I talk about. But, they are forcd to witness the National pissing contest among our leadership. Inept administration is worsened by the assenine politics of the left. Democrats can say virtually anything and not be held accountable. Support the war then flip flop and blame it on Bush. He may be a ****ty CinC after all.. but with all the horse**** that gets lumped onto his political **** sandwich.. Democrats have effectively scuttled the Presidency. Typical Americans have been let down, misled, and lied to by all of the leadership on both sides. Typical Americans have fed the biased media the ratings they want to continue to tell us what to think. We voted a gang of morons into leadership.. we get to pay the price.

[Jobu]

Hey... look who's obsessing about Bush... again. Rather than whine about Bush or the "NeoCons" try discussing why you think so many soldiers that are in harms way, have been in Iraq, or are likely to go.. don't seem to support the "quit and run" policy that the libs and dems are selling? Try speaking about how the media mouthpieces like Rosie, Jane Fonda, Kerry, Sheehan, Edwards, etc.. are so ****e to insulting the servicemen of this country? Is that some sort of projection of not trusting the Bush administration so they find ways to take it out on soldiers? Let me guess.. they honor us by using the spit-wad politics to "bring us home" right?

One caveat.. you're right that the typical American citizen doesn't fall into the generalizations you and I talk about. But, they are forcd to witness the National pissing contest among our leadership. Inept administration is worsened by the assenine politics of the left. Democrats can say virtually anything and not be held accountable. Support the war then flip flop and blame it on Bush. He may be a ****ty CinC after all.. but with all the horse**** that gets lumped onto his political **** sandwich.. Democrats have effectively scuttled the Presidency. Typical Americans have been let down, misled, and lied to by all of the leadership on both sides. Typical Americans have fed the biased media the ratings they want to continue to tell us what to think. We voted a gang of morons into leadership.. we get to pay the price.

They don't just save it for Bush. Check out Harry Reid's comments about General Pace and General Petraeus.

[AZRON]

They don't just save it for Bush. Check out Harry Reid's comments about General Pace and General Petraeus.

I was just going to mention that.
The top pols in the Dem party play to the anti-war and frequently anti-military wing of the party, all of them.

John Kerry has a 40 year track record of it .
The Dems may win the next national election and have a military in place that they have a track record of bad mouthing for no reason other than playing domestic politics and not a damned thing to do with national security.

Remember John Edwards " The WOT is nothing but a bumper sticker ".
The Dem party is so contaminated by it's draft dodging roots of the '60s it's lost not in touch with reality of the future .

[Durandal]

What? You're killin' me here. We're talking about public policy, yes?

I never said ANYTHING about public policy.

Public policy by its VERY definition is obtrusive to the individual.

I am talking about WHO I AM and what a think. I believe a small government and diversity are core to a flourishing society. Both are possible.

[Jobu]

I never said ANYTHING about public policy.

Public policy by its VERY definition is obtrusive to the individual.

I am talking about WHO I AM and what a think. I believe a small government and diversity are core to a flourishing society. Both are possible.

I half-disagree. I think small government and assimilation are the core. Enforced diversity does not bring us together as a community, it separates us.

[Hollis]

I half-disagree. I think small government and assimilation are the core. Enforced diversity does not bring us together as a community, it separates us.


I think the key lies in your statement, "Enforced". One can not force freedom or the concepts of freedom on another. A person has to desire them and maintain them personally.

Once the force is removed, people go back to where they were. I think the best we can expect is a reasonable tolerance to others, even if the best tolerance we can get, is for one people/group to just ignore the others.

With every political force there seems to be a opposite force, to move in the other direction.

Instead of enforce, maybe encourage is a better option, to encourage tolerance, self participation in society, promote the bases of a free society or ??

[AZRON]

I half-disagree. I think small government and assimilation are the core. Enforced diversity does not bring us together as a community, it separates us.

Agreed.

Diversity in action Kurd vs. Arab vs. Sunni vs. Shi'ite vs. Assyrian vs. Turkoman vs. Christian.

Or Serb vs. Bosnian Muslim vs. Croation vs. Montenegren.

Diversity is O.K. in resturants , fashion , entertainment and such but integration and assimilation work best in gov't , the work place and schools.

U.S. diversity has led to separate but equal JC graduations and separate but equal traffic courts both illegal and one is illegal since 1954 USSC ruling.
What I find totally out of whack is the more we assimilate the more cries for diversity . Soon expect Burkas in U.S. schools with Muslim students.

[IraGlacialis]

Conservatives drink domestic beer. They eat red meat, and still provide for their women. Conservatives are big-game hunters, rodeo cowboys, lumber-jacks...
I'm a lumber-jack and I'm okay... p-)

Seriously, the orignal definition of liberal and conservative in a politcal sense had nothing to do with hippies or war-hawks.
Liberalism ment that the government was primarily hands on (ex. goverment welfare programs), while conservatism mean that the goverment was usually hands off (ex. laissez-fair). Now both terms are used with derision towards each other; liberalism attributed the spineless and conservatism attributed to the violent.

[AZRON]

There is an article on Drudge about segregated by race graduations at UCLA.

Diversity = segregation. Which is illegal but since the libs are running it it cannot be Jim Crow or illegal , if you don't believe me just ask one.

[Durandal]

I half-disagree. I think small government and assimilation are the core. Enforced diversity does not bring us together as a community, it separates us.

So you are half communist?

Seriously, what's this "forced assimilation" crap.

Forced assimilation is no better than forced diversity.

My argument is that with diversity comes news angles of solving problems, no ways of building things, new types of food.

Or you could just have "Grey"...maybe "Stalinist Gray" might be a better shade, but that my infer there were other shades of grey and hint at something more varied.

Diversity if the VERY core of Americana.

[JDAM]

At the end of the day liberals still get nothing done, and are left idle bitching and moaning like usual. Normally i find it funny, but when they start to effect my daily commute and bother me at work, then i'm all for them being locked up.

[Ordie]

In responce the to the original post.

The US military is a cross section of US society as whole. It's one of the few institutions where individuals from various states, territories, and trust territories meet, train, serve and live together. Therefore I am not surprised that people of various economic status, background, education and opinions are in the US military.

At the end of the day it does not matter if a military serviceman is liberal, progressive, conservative, or libertarian.

We all value the principles of the US Constitution. We are sworn to defend and uphold it.

[Firetxmi]

At the end of the day liberals still get nothing done, and are left idle bitching and moaning like usual. Normally i find it funny, but when they start to effect my daily commute and bother me at work, then i'm all for them being locked up.

One of the most intelligent posts in this thread! :roll:

[Jobu]

Diversity if the VERY core of Americana.

Bullcrap. Business is the core of America and if you want to be successful you're most likely going to need to speak the same language, act, and dress like everyone else. Assimiliation, it's what's for breakfast.

[Ordie]

Bullcrap. Business is the core of America and if you want to be successful you're most likely going to need to speak the same language, act, and dress like everyone else. Assimiliation, it's what's for breakfast.

America is an ideal just as much as it is a nation state.
Think "American Dream" which describes the opportunities associated with living in a liberal, democratic and capitalist society.

Assimilation and acculturation is an individual choice for personal gain, not a national policy.

[budgie]

Been on Safari in Kenya for the past few days so I missed this one. Anyone posted the guy with the fish head yet?

[Durandal]

Bullcrap. Business is the core of America and if you want to be successful you're most likely going to need to speak the same language, act, and dress like everyone else. Assimiliation, it's what's for breakfast.

No problem there Commissar Jobu...