Family Backs Reservist in Iraq Prison Case

[MetalBoy]

It's funny how family members will say pretty dumb **** to defend their kin.

FORT ASHBY, W.Va. -- Family members of an Army reservist photographed with naked Iraqi prisoners said Tuesday she was merely a "paper-pusher" who was in the "wrong place at the wrong time."

Pictures of Spc. Lynndie England, 21, and other soldiers have sparked an international outcry over the U.S. military's handling of Iraqi war prisoners.

In one photo, England is shown making a thumbs-up gesture behind a pyramid of naked Iraqi men; in another, cigarette dangling from her lips, she points to a hooded and naked prisoner.

"It's ridiculous," said Destiny Goin, 21, who has lived with England's extended family since high school and considers herself England's sister.

"It's her picture that you see more than anyone else's, and she really wasn't involved. She was just in the wrong place at the wrong time."

Unlike six other members of the 372nd Military Police Company based in Cumberland, Md., England has not been charged but she is being detained at Fort Bragg, N.C.

Goin said England has been restricted to base and has not been given access to legal counsel.

A spokeswoman at Fort Bragg referred calls to an Army spokesman in Virginia, who did not immediately return phone calls.

Goin said England and the six soldiers who have been charged are "scapegoats -- that's what they're being used for."

England was trained to be a "paper pusher" who helped process prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, said Goin and England's brother-in-law James Klinestiver. She was in the area where the photos were taken to visit friends in the 372nd who served as guards, the two said.

Goin and Klinestiver said the family is furious with the comments of President Bush, who said he was "disgusted" by the photographs.

"He doesn't know what these guys are going through," Klinestiver said. Referring to Bush's limited National Guard service during the Vietnam War, he added, "How can you make decisions for our military unless you've served yourself?"

Yeah, sure Pfc. Lynndie England is a scapegoat all right :roll: . She was just in the wrong place at the wrong time when she was dragging this Iraqi around on a leash in this photo just released from the Washington Post :
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5623-2004May5.html
http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/images/I5638-2004May05L

Pfc. Lynndie England of the 372nd Military Police Company, an Army Reserve unit based in Cresaptown, Md., holds a leash tied around a naked man’s neck at Abu Ghraib prison. The photo was cropped for publication.

How dare President Bush stand up for decency and morality among our men and women serving in the military? :roll: I hope this bitch gets the book thrown at her.

[MetalBoy]

Ok my anger might be unfounded apparently she hasn't been charged along with the others in this case. I don't know her full story really so I don't want to prejudge, but from those pics she seems pretty guilty to me, but what do I know?

[American Patriot]

The rules:

1) Have a good reason to mess with the inmates
2) Do not capture the 'Kodak moment' for ANY reason :lol:

[Ichhabe]

OK! I thought the first pictures was bad. But that is even worse. Sincerly I hope that there aren't more to come.

[budanski]

INTELLIGENCE OPERATIONS: The Truth About Brutal Interrogations in Iraq (http://www.strategypage.com//fyeo/howtomakewar/default.asp?target=HTINTEL.HTM)

Pictures of American soldiers humiliating and intimidating Iraqi prisoners have become a major news item. What is generally left unsaid is what influence this will have on intelligence work in Iraq, and elsewhere, in pursuit of terrorists. The Iraq incidents apparently involved civilian contractor interrogators and a number of reservist MPs. The reservists were men and women who had recently been converted from other military jobs to Military Police (MPs). The Iraq operations required a lot of MPs, and one of the traditional MP jobs is guarding prisoners. It was always feared that the newly trained MPs, lacking many experienced MP NCOs and officers to supervise them, would get into trouble.

In Iraq, thousands of Iraqis have been arrested on suspicion of supporting or participating in attacks on coalition troops, or on Iraqis who support the new Iraqi government. Since these attacks began to escalate last Summer, the pressure was on the intelligence troops (who did the interrogating and analysis of information obtained) to find out who was doing it. That effort was successful, as an increasing number of raids shut down more and more of the Sunni Arab groups who were still fighting to preserve the traditional position of Sunnis as the rulers of Iraq. By early this year, many, if not most, of the remaining attackers were concentrated in the Sunni city of Fallujah and surrounding towns.*

But late last year, a number of American soldiers began to complain to their superiors that the methods used on the Iraqi prisoners seemed to be excessive, if not illegal. Investigations were conducted and those found violating the army regulations (on how to deal with interrogations) were being identified and prosecuted under military law. But the army investigations became known to the media earlier this year, along with pictures of Iraqi prisoners being brutalized, and the matter became a major media event.

The interrogations of Iraqis was always a tricky business, as the brass were increasingly demanding “more information” towards the end of 2003. In past wars, situations like this meant that the treatment of tight lipped prisoners became increasingly brutal. In most cases, these incidents never reached the media. The crises passed, the war ended, and everyone went home.*

But during the Vietnam war, there was a media increasingly hostile to the military, and an increasingly unpopular war. Some of the brutal Vietnam era interrogation incidents became news stories. Nothing much came of it, and there was little talk of similar incidents in earlier wars.*

The Vietnam experience was remembered by the intelligence and MP communities, and regulations were laid down describing what could, and could not, be done when trying to get life and death type information out of prisoners. Off the record, and usually over a few drinks, it was acknowledged that in a future war, if the situation became serious enough (Americans were in immediate danger if prisoners were not made to talk), the regulations would be ignored. But no one said it out loud, and most hoped that they would not be in command of an intel or MP unit under those conditions. But it did happen, and now the officers, NCOs and troops involved will be punished. It’s another cost of war. Speeches and promises will be made about how horrible it all is, and how it will never happen again. But it will.*

There are less brutal, and effective, methods of getting information out of prisoners. But these methods (best described as “psychological pressure and mind games”) require skilled interrogators that speak the same language as, and understand the culture of , the prisoners. No way these conditions are going to be achieved in Iraq or Afghanistan in the short term. The Iraqis themselves, or Arab police in general, did not favor such techniques, but usually went straight to methods far more brutal than what the American soldiers are accused of.*

The uproar over the excessive interrogation methods will lead to numerous restrictions on interrogators and much more scrutiny of how interrogations are conducted. Because the incidents have become major media and political issues, the interrogations will be less productive for a while. As a result of this, attacks on coalition troops will be more frequent and successful. In war, information is a matter of life and death. So more Americans will die as a result of all this. Few will raise the issue in these terms. Instead, much will be made about how unnecessary and counterproductive the brutality was. However, the Iraqis most likely to be angered by the brutality are the Sunni Arabs, who have provided the support (and manpower) for the attacks all along. A major reason for the attacks is the Sunni Arab realization that once elections are held, and the Shia Arabs and Kurds (80 percent of the population) are in power, the treatment of prisoners will get a lot worse. The Shia and Kurds have long lists of Sunni Arabs they know (or strongly suspect) committed atrocities against them for decades. The Shia and Kurds will want justice, and they will conduct interrogations to obtain additional information. Despite training of a new Iraqi police force, the Shia interrogations of Sunnis will most likely revert to the traditional Arab methods.

The Arab media made much of the brutality of American interrogators, but said little about Saddam’s decades of interrogations in the Arab style. Apparently if Arabs are brutal to Arabs, it isn’t news. But if non-Arabs do it, it’s a war crime, or worse. Not that it matters much. War is brutal, and tends to get more brutal as the death rate increases. That does not appear to have changed much over several thousand years of human history.

Ultimately, the Sunni Arab violence and brutality are an Iraqi problem. The coalition had hoped they could contain it until they handed power over to an elected Iraqi government. At that point, all the foreigners could go home, and safely criticize the democratically elected Iraqi government for their brutal treatment of the Sunni Arabs. That will happen, but with more coalition deaths in the meantime.

[Sergei]

The most disgusting thing is that actually this is a woman, a future mother who has degraded herself to such an extent.

Sonderkommando SS would be proud to have that bitch in their ranks.

[Argyll]

Ok my anger might be unfounded apparently she hasn't been charged along with the others in this case. I don't know her full story really so I don't want to prejudge, but from those pics she seems pretty guilty to me, but what do I know?


And the person whom took the pics is also gulty by association ;)

[Argyll]

The most disgusting thing is that actually this is a woman, a future mother who has degraded herself to such an extent.

Sonderkommando SS would be proud to have that bitch in their ranks.

Oh I see,so there would be no female Interogators in the Russian Military Intelligence,there are No Female Russian Detectives who interogate their prisoners?............stop being so bloody naive,it's one of the oldest forms of Interogation going to have a female participate ,especially when Prisoners are stripped of their clothing,this type of thing is not exclusive to Al Graib prison folks..........the taking of phot's is not either,but what is is passing them on for Political or Financial Motivation.

By taking pictures and doing nothing you are as guilty by association as those whom commited the acts,why these people never came forward sooner is what's puzzling me?

[aktarian]

The Arab media made much of the brutality of American interrogators, but said little about Saddam’s decades of interrogations in the Arab style. Apparently if Arabs are brutal to Arabs, it isn’t news. But if non-Arabs do it, it’s a war crime, or worse. Not that it matters much. War is brutal, and tends to get more brutal as the death rate increases. That does not appear to have changed much over several thousand years of human history.

Well, Saddam didn't invade Iraq to liberate it's people from brutal, people torturing dictator. p-)

[Argyll]

The Arab media made much of the brutality of American interrogators, but said little about Saddam’s decades of interrogations in the Arab style. Apparently if Arabs are brutal to Arabs, it isn’t news. But if non-Arabs do it, it’s a war crime, or worse. Not that it matters much. War is brutal, and tends to get more brutal as the death rate increases. That does not appear to have changed much over several thousand years of human history.

Well, Saddam didn't invade Iraq to liberate it's people from brutal, people torturing dictator. p-)

No but he did it to Kuwait!!! ;)

[aktarian]

The Arab media made much of the brutality of American interrogators, but said little about Saddam’s decades of interrogations in the Arab style. Apparently if Arabs are brutal to Arabs, it isn’t news. But if non-Arabs do it, it’s a war crime, or worse. Not that it matters much. War is brutal, and tends to get more brutal as the death rate increases. That does not appear to have changed much over several thousand years of human history.

Well, Saddam didn't invade Iraq to liberate it's people from brutal, people torturing dictator. p-)

No but he did it to Kuwait!!! ;)

I thought he invaded Kuwait becasue Iraq owed Kuwait money and Kuwaitis were stealing Iraqi oil. Now I learn they invaded it to remove brutal dictator ruling Kuwait. Thanks for setting that one straight. :hug:

But weren't then others wrong in kicking Iraqis out and reinstalling that brutal dictator? :(

[sierraone]

The most disgusting thing is that actually this is a woman, a future mother who has degraded herself to such an extent.

Sonderkommando SS would be proud to have that bitch in their ranks.

Oh I see,so there would be no female Interogators in the Russian Military Intelligence,there are No Female Russian Detectives who interogate their prisoners?............

Sergei is from Kiev, Ukraine not Russia......(just thought I'd say that) :)

[Argyll]

The most disgusting thing is that actually this is a woman, a future mother who has degraded herself to such an extent.

Sonderkommando SS would be proud to have that bitch in their ranks.

Oh I see,so there would be no female Interogators in the Russian Military Intelligence,there are No Female Russian Detectives who interogate their prisoners?............

Sergei is from Kiev, Ukraine not Russia......(just thought I'd say that) :)

Yeah that's a bit like Calling an Scotsman ,English ok so just change the wording then........the rest stands ;)

[Erik_MAA]

Gotta jump in here...

I've worked in Corrections for four years, prior to which I spent 11 years in the Army, including 5 years in the MPs. I've never seen anything like this. I cannot understand why soldiers would do something so obviously wrong.

There are things that separate us from the Iraquis. We're not supposed to do things like this. These soldiers should know better and deserve whatever they get.

It may have been posted here before, but here is the actual, official US Army investigation report. Without the filter of the press it makes the situation much clearer.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/reports/2004/800-mp-bde.htm

[Argyll]

That's an interesting read to say the least.

Tho for the life of Me I cannot understand why they took photo's,and why it took so long to make them available,it does not make the situation any better,but either finacially or Politically someone blew the whistle,and sent these photo's to the media,and it sure as hell was not because of wrong doing,otherwise they'd have done this immediately these incidents took place.

Reprimands are pathetic,those in the Chain of command Mentioned should have been Dishonourably discharged,after doing time at Levenworth.

Eric..........based on your experience.......what went wrong here?
A Prank that got out of hand............or what?