The greatest victory and the greatest defeat of your country ?

[Guerrier_Franc]

My country (France)
I would say the geatest victory is battle of Bouvines 1214 :)
the greatest defeat the battle of Azincourt 1415 :-(

And you ?

[Fade]

Canada

Greatest victory - I would nominate Vimy Ridge.

Greatest defeat - I'd have to go with Dieppe @ 1,946 Canadians captured.

[valtrex]

My country (Greece).
Our greatest victory is without any doubt the simoultaneous victories against the Carthagenians in the battle of Himera (http://www.livius.org/sh-si/sicily/sicily_t06.html) & the Persians in the battle of Salamis (http://www.livius.org/he-hg/herodotus/logos8_24.html), on the same day (September 28) of the same year (480 BC).
Our greatest defeat is without any doubt the disastrous Greek campaign in Minor Asia (1919-1922) (http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/golf/greekturk1921.htm) & the exchange of populations between Greece & Turkey that followed our defeat (treaty of Lausanne). Over 1 million Greeks left Anatolia, thus ending a Greek presence in Minor Asia for millenia.

[mas-36]

I'm sure I'll be corrected by others, but IMO, our greatest victory and defeat (taking into account it being a purely U.S. vs. other guys battle) are:

Victory - Iwo Jima 1945

Defeat - Battle of the Wabash (St. Clair's defeat) 1791

[Dasein]

For the United States, I'd say the greatest victory would be the Battle of Saratoga in 1777, since without that victory, it is entirely possible there wouldn't be any United States. The runner up to that would be the Battle of Midway in 1942, as that was the decisive turning point in the Pacific theater of World War II. Third would be the Battle of Getteysberg in 1863. This victory was not only a massive defeat of the Confederacy, but also dashed any hopes of international recognition of the Confederacy, thus securing the isolation of the rebels.

As for defeats, it's hard to say. The Union defeat at Chacellorsville in 1863 during the Civil War was a pretty embarassing upset for a superior Union force, but the Confederates couldn't capitalize on their victory, and suffered heavy losses, both in terms of commanders (Jackson, especially) and soldiers lost. The sack of Washington DC by the British in 1814 would be up there, but the long-term strategic reprocussions of that battle were minimal. Vietnam as a whole could be seen as an American defeat, although there's really no signle battle where we clearly lost at a tactical or operational level. Afghanistan and Iraq might be considered defeats eventually, but it's too early to tell right now.

["Desert Fox"]

Great Britain

Battle of Trafalgar-Greatest victory

Battle of Singapore-Greatest defeat

[AZRON]

For the United States, I'd say the greatest victory would be the Battle of Saratoga in 1777, since without that victory, it is entirely possible there wouldn't be any United States. The runner up to that would be the Battle of Midway in 1943, as that was the decisive turning point in the Pacific theater of World War II. Third would be the Battle of Getteysberg in 1863. This victory was not only a massive defeat of the Confederacy, but also dashed any hopes of international recognition of the Confederacy, thus securing the isolation of the rebels.

As for defeats, it's hard to say. The Union defeat at Chacellorsville in 1863 during the Civil War was a pretty embarassing upset for a superior Union force, but the Confederates couldn't capitalize on their victory, and suffered heavy losses, both in terms of commanders (Jackson, especially) and soldiers lost. The sack of Washington DC by the British in 1814 would be up there, but the long-term strategic reprocussions of that battle were minimal. Vietnam as a whole could be seen as an American defeat, although there's really no signle battle where we clearly lost at a tactical or operational level. Afghanistan and Iraq might be considered defeats eventually, but it's too early to tell right now.

Those are good choices.
Consideration over the The Battle of the Atlantic is valid along with Yorktown for 3-4rd 4th place.

As to defeats, I would consider Kasserine Pass (3) and the Chinese intervention in Korea in 1950(2).

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

My country (USA)

Greatest victory(s): Saratoga, capture of Mexico City in 1848, Battle of Midway, Okinawa, Operation Desert Storm.
Greatest defeat(s): Charleston (America Revolution), capture and burning of Washington DC in War of 1812, Battle of Little Big Horn, Pearl Harbor, loss of the Philippines in WWII.

(Note: I left out battles from the American Civil War because any great American victory in that war was also a great American defeat, depending on how you look at it.)

[CPL Trevoga]

USSR
Defeats - Operation Barbarossa
Victory - Operation Bagratyon, Operation Saturn

[Atlantic Friend]

I'd have said losing the 1940 Battle of France was our worst one - if a sadly predictable one. It was the first defeat which could have brought either the destriction or the enslavement of France as a nation, given the nature of the enemy.

[Basillicus]

Finland

Victory:
Difficult one since I don't think we have archieved too many victories. I'd say Winter War 1939-1940; despite the odds we were able to stop the USSR and stay independent.

Defeat:
Perhaps the Cudgel War 1596-7, desperate uprising of peasant who didn't have much any weapons nor training and were slaughtered at ease. Or the Great Northern War 1700-1721 that resulted Finland being brutally occupied by the Russians for years (an era called the Greater Wrath).

[ex-cop]

Finland

Defeat:
Or the Great Northern War 1700-1721 that resulted Finland being brutally occupied by the Russians for years (an era called the Greater Wrath).

as i remember it was war between Russia and Sweden

[Guerrier_Franc]

I'd have said losing the 1940 Battle of France was our worst one - if a sadly predictable one. It was the first defeat which could have brought either the destriction or the enslavement of France as a nation, given the nature of the enemy.

Many people think also as you but personally i think Azincourt is the worst because after the battle, France didn't exist any more as an independant Kingdom (treaty of Troyes 1420 ) and king of England became King of France
I don't say i'm right but it's my opinion.

[Sovietpower]

My country (Italy)

The greatest victory of my country I think it was the Battle of Piave river

The greatest defeat of my country I think it was Caporetto

[Dling]

Canada

Greatest victory - I would nominate Vimy Ridge.

Greatest defeat - I'd have to go with Dieppe @ 1,946 Canadians captured.


I think Juno beach could be listed as a victory too:)

[Basillicus]

as i remember it was war between Russia and Sweden

That's because Finland was part of Sweden back then.

[mas-36]

For the Frenchies, I'd say your best vistory in modern times was Verdun 1916. You and you alone were almost bled white, and had you failed and been knocked out of the war, the Brits would have had less reason to stay on the continent, and the US would have most likely stayed home.

But, you hung on at a horrible price. I'd say thats a huge vistory in itself.

[Macaca sylvanus]

Great Britain:

Victory: The Battle of Gravelines 1588 (Defeat of the Spanish armada)

Defeat: Passchendaele 1917 (deemed a tactical stalemate but human cost and lack of strategic significance makes it a defeat)

[Givati575]

I think Juno beach could be listed as a victory too:)

of course it was a victory, but it wasn't really a great victory, i mean juno beach was like a day at the beach ;) compared to omaha

[Opening Batsman]

Kind of hard to say for Australia. There's a lot of ways to judge "greatest", but going by tactical significance it would probably be the Battle of Amiens. Of course, Australia wasn't the only participant, but we played a major role in it. Ludendorff called it "the black day of the German Army" for a reason, it basically set the scene for Germany's defeat in WW1.

As for defeats, it could be Singapore in WW2. We lost the entire 8th Division as part of the British surrender (many of whom died as POWs), despite giving the Japanese a major headache.

[Jorge M.]

Venezuela

Victory: Battle of Carabobo against Spain, 1821. Not the biggest battle in terms of Number of troops, but still the most important. :)

Defeat: Battle of La Puerta, 1814?? Maybe not...I dont remember whats the worst defeat we had since I've forgotten a lot of the battles from the war of independence. :-(

[kawaiku]

United States:
Victory: That would be Saratoga hands down.Dasein said it best.
Defeat: For some reason I keep thinking of the first phase of the Battle of the Bulge as a major defeat. I'll elaborate later into a more informed answer when I can think it through a little more.

[Ivo]

Croatia:
Victory: The Battle of the Bosnian Highlands in May 27, 927.
Defeat: The Battle of Gvozd Mountain in 1097, the death of the Last Croatian King and domination of of Croatia by Hungary

[zg18]

Croatia:
Victory: The Battle of the Bosnian Highlands in May 27, 927.
Defeat: The Battle of Gvozd Mountain in 1097, the death of the Last Croatian King and domination of of Croatia by Hungary

I could add :

Defeat: Battle on Krbavsko polje (Krbava field) on september 9, 1493. Turks massacrated Croatian army led by noblemans,7000 out 10.000 were killed,others were taken to slavery in Istanbul or were executed by cuting their heads.

Victory: Battle at Sisak on june 22, 1593. Turks tried to capture Croatian capital Zagreb but they were repulsed and destroyed at Sisak fortress,legend say that Bosnian Jannisaries drowned in large numbers in river Sava during panic retreat.

These battles are significant in Croatia`s history because with one battle started and with other finished a 100 year period of Turkish conquest of our lands.With second battle starts reconquista of Croatia.

[Russian_dude]

Finland

Victory:
Difficult one since I don't think we have archieved too many victories. I'd say Winter War 1939-1940; despite the odds we were able to stop the USSR and stay independent.

Defeat:
Perhaps the Cudgel War 1596-7, desperate uprising of peasant who didn't have much any weapons nor training and were slaughtered at ease. Or the Great Northern War 1700-1721 that resulted Finland being brutally occupied by the Russians for years (an era called the Greater Wrath).

Brutally occupied? Get real. Many countries would give anything to be so "brutally" occupied. Look in Helsinki, anything worth visiting was built during the "brutal" occupation.

[Ivo]

Hey zg18 yeah your right they were pretty significant battles in Croatian history but the ones where we fought the Hungarians had a greater significance to Croatia today then any other battle

[zg18]

Hey zg18 yeah your right they were pretty significant battles in Croatian history but the ones where we fought the Hungarians had a greater significance to Croatia today then any other battle

:)

Why is that? Becuse we join with them in kingdom union? OK,i could understand you...but if Turks conquered Croatia completely i would probably today pray for Allah,you know what happened to Croats in Bosnia and occupaid parts of Croatia.

[Basillicus]

Brutally occupied? Get real. Many countries would give anything to be so "brutally" occupied. Look in Helsinki, anything worth visiting was built during the "brutal" occupation.

I think you are mixing it with the Finnish war of 1809. In that Finland was finally separated from Sweden and occupied by Russia, and I agree that this occupation was actually quite useful for Finland and during that era the foundations of our democracy and independence were laid. But the occupation 100 years earlier was quite another story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Wrath

[Ivo]

Hey zg18 the reason why the battles I stated were significant because it is part of the reasons we have with some of our neighbours

[ex-cop]

That's because Finland was part of Sweden back then.

then i think it was the occupation (if it's the proper word for that time) of Swedish territory, but not Finland as country especially independant country

[Labud]

Serbia

Defeat:
Battle of Chernomen on Marica, 1371. - Serbian warlords brothers Vukashin and Ugljesha Mrnjavchevic (Вукашин и Угљеша Мрњавчевић) recruited great army to stop ottoman expansion. They were so sure in victory, that one night whole Serbian army got drunk. Turks had slaughtered them on sleeping. After that, began rapid Ottoman expansion.

Victory (there are two battles, I can't decide which is greater victory):
Battle of Velbuzd (Велбужд, today Kjustendil), 1330 - Serbian king Stefan Urosh III Dechanski from Nemanjic (Немањић) dinasty crushed Bulgarian army under emperor Michael (Михаил) Shishman. Bulgarians and Byzantians wanted to attack Serbia at the same time, but Stefan Urosh III crushed Bulgarians so hard, that Byzantians decided to retreat. Bulgarian emperor was killed by Stefan's son Dushan (later emperor Stefan Dushan). After that battle Serbia became major power on Balkans and larger than that.
Battle of Kolubara, 1914. - In november 1914., Austro-Hungary made its 3rd offensive in Serbia. Serbian troops was tired, without artillery ammunition. Serbian army start to retreat constantly. Morale was extremly low. And then, Zivojin Mishic (one of the most talented leaders ever), commander of Serbian 1st Army, decided to retreat deep into Serbian territory and rest his troops. After 3 days, Serbs made great counter attack and banned enemy from its fatherland for 10 days. It is one of rare examples how one army after one month of retreating and low morale, gets back in life so quickly.

@zg18
In battle of Sisak, beside Croatians, there were also units of Serbian "bordermen" from Military border (Varazdin command).

[Player]

Israel

Greatest Victories:
1948 - War of Independence. Israel vs. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Arab Liberation army
1967 - Six Day War. Israel vs. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia
1973 - Yom Kippur War. Israel vs. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq
1981 - Bombing of the Osiraq nuclear reactor (Iraq)

During the 1982 Lebanon war IAF planes destroyed the Syrian air defense without a single fighter lost and shot down 100 Syrian aircraft.

Greatest Defeats:

I wouldn't say 2006 Lebanon war was a victory for the enemy (Hezbollah) because they suffered way bigger losses than the IDF but neither it was a great victory for Israel.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Israel

Greatest Victories:
1948 - War of Independence. Israel vs. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon
1967 - Six Day War. Israel vs. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq
1973 - Yom Kippur War. Israel vs. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq
1981 - Bombing of the Osiraq nuclear reactor (Iraq)

During the 1982 Lebanon war IAF planes destroyed the Syrian air defense without a single fighter lost and shot down 100 Syrian aircraft.

Greatest Defeats:

I wouldn't say 2006 Lebanon war was a victory for the enemy (Hezbollah) because they suffered way bigger losses than the IDF but neither it was a great victory for Israel.

Don't you think South Lebanon withdrawal in 2000 would qualify as the biggest IDF defeat?

[Jaycee]

South Africa

I would have to say the greatest victory was back in 1899 during the battle of Colenso. 21,000 British vs 8,000 Boers(South Africans). 1,126 dead British and 40 casualties on the Boer side

Defeat: Battle of Paardeberg

Total casualties for the war: 22,000 British and 6,000–7,000 and 20,000 28,000 Boer civilians.

[achilles]

Israel

Greatest Victories:
1948 - War of Independence. Israel vs. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon
1967 - Six Day War. Israel vs. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq
1973 - Yom Kippur War. Israel vs. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq
1981 - Bombing of the Osiraq nuclear reactor (Iraq)

During the 1982 Lebanon war IAF planes destroyed the Syrian air defense without a single fighter lost and shot down 100 Syrian aircraft.

Greatest Defeats:

I wouldn't say 2006 Lebanon war was a victory for the enemy (Hezbollah) because they suffered way bigger losses than the IDF but neither it was a great victory for Israel.

Well, it is important to note that Israel has yet to confront with an army equipped with the same hardware, in terms of both quantity and quality, and backed up by western superpowers.

Other than that, yes Israel has been pretty vistorious ever since its declaration of independence.

Regarding Greece, i'd say the greatest victories were the following:

- Thermopylae. An ultimate defeat but still a victory against a vast Persian army
-Marathon. The persians again.
- Against the Italians in WWII.
-More than one occassions during our war of independence against the Ottomans

The greatest defeat was circa 1922, during the Minor Asia conflict against the newly created state of Turkey, while trying to get our lands back.

[Player]

Megaraptor;2584657']Don't you think South Lebanon withdrawal in 2000 would qualify as the biggest IDF defeat?

We had another chance to fix the consequences of 2000 withdrawal in 2006 war, but unfortunately our government failed even in this, so I would say 2006 is even worse.

[GunnerBhoy]

United Kingdom

Victory: Gota Be the Battle of Britain

Defeat: B.E.F in France.

[Skutatos]

Well, it is important to note that Israel has yet to confront with an army equipped with the same hardware, in terms of both quantity and quality, and backed up by western superpowers.

Other than that, yes Israel has been pretty vistorious ever since its declaration of independence.

Regarding Greece, i'd say the greatest victories were the following:

- Thermopylae. An ultimate defeat but still a victory against a vast Persian army
-Marathon. The persians again.
- Against the Italians in WWII.
-More than one occassions during our war of independence against the Ottomans

The greatest defeat was circa 1922, during the Minor Asia conflict against the newly created state of Turkey, while trying to get our lands back.


I dont know about that, the armies they faced in the Yom Kippur War(1973) were extremely well equipped, even better equipped then the Israelis in many cases with new AT and AA weapons. The Israelis were better trained and more experienced though. The USSR had been supplying Syria and Egypt with a plethora of new equipment.

The Israelis were using things like the Centurion tank(Sho't) and Super Shermans...not top of the line equipment for the time. The Syrians were using mostly T-62s which were the latest soviet tank design available. And if Im not mistaken the Egyptians had a large number of M60s, the latest american tank at the time.

[Sabre]

Greatest defeat: The capture of Henry Percy and the loss of 1500 men at the battle of Otterburn, 1388.

Greatest Victory: The defeat of King James IV at the battle of Flodden Field, 1513.


Oops. You said country, not county....apologies, too much history it seems. ;)

[Player]

Well, it is important to note that Israel has yet to confront with an army equipped with the same hardware, in terms of both quantity and quality, and backed up by western superpowers.

Actually in most of major Israel-Arab wars (48/67/73) Israeli enemies had superior equipment and overwhelming amount of forces.

[IDF_TANKER]

Well, it is important to note that Israel has yet to confront with an army equipped with the same hardware, in terms of both quantity and quality,
Different hardware doesn't means better one. During all the wars we had mixed new and old hardware, just like our enemies.



and backed up by western superpowers.
Just like our enemies where backed by eastern superpower.

[IDF_TANKER]

Megaraptor;2584657']Don't you think South Lebanon withdrawal in 2000 would qualify as the biggest IDF defeat?
How come?
.......

[ArmedPacifist]

Israel

Greatest Victories:
1948 - War of Independence. Israel vs. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Arab Liberation army
1967 - Six Day War. Israel vs. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia
1973 - Yom Kippur War. Israel vs. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq
1981 - Bombing of the Osiraq nuclear reactor (Iraq)



I don't think that this response is very fair considering that during these wars although Israel was ultimately the victor, they lost battles and in some cases territory. Earilier in the thread a Russian mentioned Operation Barbarossa as a great loss, yet the USSR won the war, but they lost that particular battle/operation.

So for example, the Egyptian crossing of the Suez and Israel losing control of both it and the Sinai would be considered a loss and not a victory.

I mean, as a Canadian I could say the battle of New Orleans as our greatest loss during the war of 1812, but we ultimately won the war, so it's not fair to say "the war of 1812" as a victory.

[Lazuris]

(USA)

Victory: Battle of G.e.t.t.y.s.b.u.r.g. 1863. Not the final battle of the Civil War but it marked the turning point in the war which halted further southern gains. I'm one of those guys that believe the the Civil War formed this country and not the revolutionary war.

Loss: Does Pearl Harbor Count?


Sorry for the wierd spelling the filter kept blocking it out

[Flummox]

Switzerland:

Defeat:
Battle of Marignano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Marignano). Switzerland decided to remain neutral after this defeat.

Victory:
Battle of Morgarten (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Morgarten). Led to the swiss autonomy.

And this battle impresses me the most (even if lost): 1500 completely outnumbered (~13/1) Swiss cross a stream and attack the enemy. Battle of St. Jakob an der Birs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_St._Jakob_an_der_Birs)

[zg18]

@zg18
In battle of Sisak, beside Croatians, there were also units of Serbian "bordermen" from Military border (Varazdin command).


There were also units from Austria and Slovenia,Habsburg army was commanded by Croat nobleman of Hungarian origins ban Tamás Erdődy (Toma Bakač Erdedi),Turkish-Bosnian army was commanded by islamized Serb Hasan-paša Predojević.

[ase290406]

A different take on Israel-

Greatest victories:
Independence war 1948- Just because some of the fighters were former Nazi death camps inmates. True heroes.

Six day war 1967- Tripled our territory in 6 days. Complete air superiority in
a matter of hours.

Historical-

The victories against the Seleucids, creating an independent Jewish kindgom for about 100 years. Until the Romans came.

Greatest defeats-

Our wars against the Roman Empire. 2000 years of exile followed.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

How come?
.......

Umm...because it was the only significant Israeli defeat of the last 60 years and it led to the stuff going on in south Lebanon now?

But nevermind, I just realized that we're limiting Israel to post 1948 for some reason so i'd like to nominate the following:

Victories: Joshua's Northern Campaign, Joshua's Southern Campaign, David's capture of Jerusalem, victory of the Maccabees against the Greeks.
Defeats: Pharaoh Shishak's capture of Jerusalem in 900 something BC (the last time Israel was defeated by Egypt in a war BTW), Babylonian capture of Jerusalem in 587 BC, Roman capture of Jerusalem in AD 70.

[IDF_TANKER]

Megaraptor;2584866']Umm...because it was the only significant Israeli defeat of the last 60 years and it led to the stuff going on in south Lebanon now?

This was not a defeat because there was no war. We had been in Lebanon for 20 years. At some point government(with the "help" of various civil movements) came to the decision that our presence there is pointless and we got out. Hezzies of course made big deal of it, but nobody in Israel sees it as defeat, simply because there was no some war or battle we lost.

[kamaz]

My country (Italy)

The greatest victory of my country I think it was the Battle of Piave river

The greatest defeat of my country I think it was Caporetto


to go back to Roman times, Cannae would be the biggest military defeat.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

to go back to Roman times, Cannae would be the biggest military defeat.

Not to mention Teutoburg forest, in AD 9. 3 Legions annihilated...

[Sovietpower]

Yes, but I speak of 20th cenutry...

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Yes, but I speak of 20th cenutry...

So battle at Najaf police station in 2004 doesn't count as a great Italian victory?;)

[Ronguild]

My country : FRANCE

GREAT VICTORY : AUSTERLITZ, 1805 and VERDUN, 1916

GREAT DEFEAT : WATERLOO, 1815 and Battle of FRANCE, 1940.

[Sovietpower]

Megaraptor;2585018']So battle at Najaf police station in 2004 doesn't count as a great Italian victory?;)


It has not been a real battle but a small shoot-out...

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

It has not been a real battle but a small shoot-out...

I was just kidding, because you said 20th century so I was trying to find an Italian battle in the 21st century.

[Guerrier_Franc]

My country : FRANCE

GREAT VICTORY : AUSTERLITZ, 1805 and VERDUN, 1916

GREAT DEFEAT : WATERLOO, 1815 and Battle of FRANCE, 1940.

Why battle of Verdun ?

For WWI i think battle of Marne 1914 is more decisive. :)

[Sovietpower]

Megaraptor;2585061']I was just kidding, because you said 20th century so I was trying to find an Italian battle in the 21st century.


Ah...OK!:)

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

This was not a defeat because there was no war. We had been in Lebanon for 20 years.


You don't count 1982-2000 conflict with Hezbollah as a war?

[IDF_TANKER]

Megaraptor;2585123']You don't count 1982-2000 conflict with Hezbollah as a war?
Nope. The goal of our presence here was securing the northern borders of Israel, not defeating Hezbollah. And this status quo hadn't been changed through all this time until we initiated the withdrawal.

[Givati575]

Megaraptor;2585123']You don't count 1982-2000 conflict with Hezbollah as a war?

the actual war part was in 82

[Infanteer Two Seven]

sri lanka

all internal civil war

victory: operation definite victory
defeat : battle of elephant pass

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

the actual war part was in 82

And the 18 years of fighting, hit and run, Operation Accountability, Grapes of Wrath, Israeli SF raids, losing 40+ soldiers a year in South Lebanon was just peacetime or something?

[Invisigoth]

Since the Germans are likely treading lightly in this thread, I'll suggest
Battle of Tannenberg, 1914 as one of Germany's greatest victories.

I guess you could count World War II as both a defeat and a victory for Germany, from whichever perspective you view it. I'll consider it as a victory for my country to have been defeated militarily in WWII, thank god. If we exclusively talk about military defeats, Stalingrad is certainly one of the greatest human tragedies.

inv

[CPL Trevoga]

Since the Germans are likely treading lightly in this thread, I'll suggest
Battle of Tannenberg, 1914 as one of Germany's greatest victories.


You're so modest.

[krasnayaarmiya]

A different take on Israel-

Greatest victories:
Independence war 1948- Just because some of the fighters were former Nazi death camps inmates. True heroes.

Six day war 1967- Tripled our territory in 6 days. Complete air superiority in
a matter of hours.

Historical-

The victories against the Seleucids, creating an independent Jewish kindgom for about 100 years. Until the Romans came.

Greatest defeats-

Our wars against the Roman Empire. 2000 years of exile followed.

Insightful:)

[krasnayaarmiya]

U.S. of A.

VICTORIES: Getttysburg and Okinawa; the former for all the aforementioned reasons. I, too, see the Civil War as the true American revolution. The first revolution was very important to the world, but the second redeemed the US for following through on its own stated principles.

Now, Okinawa, that's a battle. Last battle of WW2. It has never been as well-known as Iwo Jima, because it occurred after Germany surrendered, during the period of the president's death, and it didn't have the photogenic Suribachi shot. It may be the largest air, sea, and land engagement. Now, I know people will say that's Overlord, BUT there were huge naval and air casualties in Operation Iceberg, the Okinawa campaign. On land, some of the battles, particularly around Sugar Loaf, were fought amongst mutually supporting Japanese subterranean hillock fortresses, like Iwo To (Iwo Jima's real name), but with a garrison 5 times larger. Some midlevel American units had over 300% casualties. The bloodshed was on the level of World War 1, with thousands dying for meters.

DEFEATS: the numerous tactically sound, battallion-and-above-sized set-piece battles in Vietnam, where we had won the field, but learned the wrong lessons, because fighting set-piece large unit battles were anathema to victory against that particular foe. The enemy learned more about fighting us than we learned about fighting them. And they almost always picked the time and place of engagement. They had the initiative. I know this is controversial, and I don't mean to offend Indochina vets, who soldiered on, but it seems like all the Operation Wheeler-type battles were a series of medium-sized pyrric victories.

OK real d*ck-in-the-dirt defeat: Chosin Reservoir, Korea What a nightmare

[Opening Batsman]

Some midlevel American units had over 300% casualties.

How does that work?

[krasnayaarmiya]

How does that work?

Unit stays extant, but the members are killed or wounded 3 times over, replaced. There were corporals running companies, or something extreme like that, as the junior officers caught hell from Japanese snipers, who would select them by inadvertant shows of insignia, binoculars, or the body language of their subordinates.

[krasnayaarmiya]

the actual war part was in 82

The lack of acknowledgement of guerilla war as "real" war is one of the first steps toward losing the guerilla war.

[Skutatos]

The Battle of Vicksburg was just as important as getttysburg, Vicksburg fell just one day after getttysburg and freed up a whole helluva lot of very experienced, very tough soldiers to campaign in other places. Vicksburg is often forgotten though.

[krasnayaarmiya]

The Battle of Vicksburg was just as important as *****s.burg, Vicksburg fell just one day after *****.sburg and freed up a whole helluva lot of very experienced, very tough soldiers to campaign in other places. Vicksburg is often forgotten though.

And it opened up the Mississippi River to the Union.

[lightfire]

Lithuania

The greatest victory, the first, that comes to mind, is certainlly Zalgiris ( Battle of Grunwald ) 1410. Although an allied victory, yet the battlefield command held by Vytautas. A decisive victory, ending almost 200 years of continueing warfare againts crusaders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grunwald


A greatest defeat, would probably be defeat at Vorskla river 1399, against tartar force of Golden Horde stoping lithuanian expansion to the East. This defeat was felt afterwards for many years, not only shatering the authority, delaying the crowning of Vytautas (which eventually never happened by evil misschance) but strenghtening the state in overal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vorskla

[Calanen]

Im going to go with the Battle of Long Tan for Australia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Long_Tan

A US Presidential Unit Citation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Unit_Citation_%28US%29) (PUC) was awarded to D Company 6RAR, by President Lyndon B. Johnson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndon_B._Johnson) on May 28 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_28), 1968 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968), for the unit's actions at Long Tan. The text of the citation reads as follows:

By virtue of the authority invested in me as the President of the United States and as Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States, I have today awarded the Presidential Unit Citation (Army) for extraordinary heroism to D Company, Sixth Battalion, The Royal Australian Regiment, The Australian Army.

D Company distinguished itself by extraordinary heroism while engaged in military operations against an opposing armed force in Vietnam on August 18,1966. While searching for Viet Cong in a rubber plantation northeast of Ba Ria, Phuoc Tuy, Province, Republic of Vietnam, D Company met and immediately engaged in heavy contact. As the battle developed, it became apparent that the men of D Company were facing a numerically superior force. The platoons of D Company were surrounded and attacked on all sides by an estimated reinforced enemy battalion using automatic weapons, small arms and mortars. Fighting courageously against a well armed and determined foe, the men on D Company maintained their formations in a common perimeter defence and inflicted heavy casualties on the Viet Cong.

The enemy maintained a continuous, intense volume of fire and attacked repeatedly from all directions. Each successive assault was repulsed by the courageous Australians. Heavy rainfall and low ceiling prevented any friendly close air support during the battle. After three hours of savage attacks, having failed to penetrate the Australian lines, the enemy withdrew from the battlefield carrying many dead and wounded, and leaving 245 Viet Cong dead forward of the defence positions of D Company.

The conspicuous courage, intrepidity and indomitable courage of D Company were to the highest tradition of military valour and reflect great credit upon D Company and the Australian Army.

**************************
I agree that Singapore was our biggest defeat. But, I think the British command has to take most of the blame for that, as opposed to the troops.

[Ronguild]

Why battle of Verdun ?

For WWI i think battle of Marne 1914 is more decisive. :)

LA MARNE is a strategic victory (you are right) but VERDUN is the victory of the french and empire soldiers (COURAGE ET SACRIFICE). The "DEBOUT LES MORTS" spirit is my choice.

Cheers BRO.

[dnme]

Megaraptor;2585464']And the 18 years of fighting, hit and run, Operation Accountability, Grapes of Wrath, Israeli SF raids, losing 40+ soldiers a year in South Lebanon was just peacetime or something?

first of all the lebanon war the first one wasnt against the hizbs they werent exist it was against the plo but after some time the middle east change we lost soldiers there in the 10 years before the war and much of them where because of hizballa.

but you cant call it a war it was simmilar to the condition in iraq but not as bad.
i think iraq is a good comparison you got in beacuse of saddam and you won but then some sunni group kill you some soldiers every once in a while and you kill some too but eventually when you will leave after 20 years you complete youre goals they say youre defeated.

[Luno]

Sweden
Would say the greatest victory is the battle of Narva (1700)
10,640 Swedes and Finns against 37,000 Russians , Sweden Finland lost 667 soldiers Russia 15,000 killed or drowned the rest surrendered

the greatest defeat would be the battle of Poltava (1709)the end of Sweden's role as a Great Power

[red_dot]

Belgium

defeat: May 1940. Belgium surrendered to the Germans after 18 days of fighting. The government fled the country.


Victory: WW1. The Belgian army never surrendered and was responsible for the fact that the German assault was slowed down (they shot civilians as a revenge). Belgium was never completely conquered and it's king (Albert 1) proved to be a good leader. He was known as the "king-soldier" because he spent a lot off time in the trenches with the soldiers.
As a true king, he never gave his permission to start an offensive on Belgian soil. Until it was unevitable (e.g. Passendale)!

[imohammed2]

canada's best:
when in the war of 1812 we burned down what was to become the white house

worst defeat:
somme.........a lot of newfoundlanders got killed......that country ended up joining canada beacuse of that

[Guerrier_Franc]

canada's best:

somme.........a lot of newfoundlanders got killed......that country ended up joining canada beacuse of that

Somme is an allied victory

[krasnayaarmiya]

first of all the lebanon war the first one wasnt against the hizbs they werent exist it was against the plo but after some time the middle east change we lost soldiers there in the 10 years before the war and much of them where because of hizballa.

but you cant call it a war it was simmilar to the condition in iraq but not as bad.
i think iraq is a good comparison you got in beacuse of saddam and you won but then some sunni group kill you some soldiers every once in a while and you kill some too but eventually when you will leave after 20 years you complete youre goals they say youre defeated.

So to say Israel did not accomplish its goals in Lebanon, as evinced by the necessity of the July War, would be a historical revision?

[SpikeBayonet]

Victory: Chancellorsville

Defeat: Nashville

Does this mean I'm Un-Reconstructed???

[dan_pub]

A different take on Israel-

Greatest victories:
Independence war 1948- Just because some of the fighters were former Nazi death camps inmates. True heroes.

Six day war 1967- Tripled our territory in 6 days. Complete air superiority in
a matter of hours.

Historical-

The victories against the Seleucids, creating an independent Jewish kindgom for about 100 years. Until the Romans came.

Greatest defeats-

Our wars against the Roman Empire. 2000 years of exile followed.

Agreed on the victories.

Worst defeat: for me it is Masada.
(No matter what our official "history" is about it, and all the ceremonials up there. For me, committing suicide instead of fighting is the dumbest thing possible. If only they had killed a single Roman it would already be a better outcome.
I'd have the leaders of that decision court-martialled for treason and dishonoured p-) )

In modern times, the worst defeat was possibly Latrun during the 48 war. Countless attacks failed, massive losses, never made it through. Had to find a path elsewhere to save J'lem.

[krasnayaarmiya]

"Victory: Chancellorsville

Defeat: Nashville

Does this mean I'm Un-Reconstructed???"


Yes. Sherman and Grant. Grant and Sherman. The south was SUPPRESSED for posterity.

[dan_pub]

My country (France)
I would say the geatest victory is battle of Bouvines 1214 :)
the greatest defeat the battle of Azincourt 1415 :-(

Greatest defeats, Sedan 1871 can not be very far...
Dien Bien Phu 1954 either.

Greatest victories, lots of them during the Révolution and Napoleon times. Single country assailed by all the tyrants of Europe because of the revolution, held out alone against all for 25 years.

[SpikeBayonet]

Okay then,

How about these...

Victory: Yorktown (although France gets 1/2+ credit) and/or Vicksburg (and the almost simultaneous Union victory at Get tysburg - which the auto editor won't let be type correctly - is get ty a dirty word now??)

Defeat: Bladensburg

[Guerrier_Franc]

Greatest defeats, Sedan 1871 can not be very far...
Dien Bien Phu 1954 either.

Greatest victories, lots of them during the Révolution and Napoleon times. Single country assailed by all the tyrants of Europe because of the revolution, held out alone against all for 25 years.


Greatest victories :

Bouvines 1214, Tolbiac 496, tours 732, Castillon 1453, Marignano 1515, Rocroy 1643, Turckeim 1675, Denain 1712, Valmy 1792, Marengo 1800, Austerlitz 1805, Jean Auerstadt 1806, Marne 1914, Fontenoy 1745

Greatest defeats :

Azincourt 1415, May june 1940, Crecy 1346, Sedan 1870, Poitiers 1356, Trafalgar 1805, Russia 1812, Waterloo 1815, Saint Quentin 1557, Rossbach 1757.

For Dien Bien Phu i'm not agree with you.
Vietamese were 6 times more numerous than french and very well equiped but they suffered very important casualties (30 000 men against 8000 French).
Indochina wasn't "vital" for France it's not really comparable with a battle as Sedan 1870 for me.

[lightfire]

well, France certainlly has a taste of greatest defeats (just a popular remark ;0 ), though is rich of great victories as well.

[Kicius]

No replies from Polish folks?

IMHO

Greatest Victory:

Grunwald (Tannenberg) 1410. Definitely one of the greatest symbolic events in our history. Even if much more could have be done after the battle (startegicwise). Anyway, our ancestors defeated evil Germans ;-)

http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/classroom/JM/1410.html

Greatest Defeat:

Hard to choose. September Campaign in 1939. We fought them well, but...
Evil Germans defeated us.

[dan_pub]

For Dien Bien Phu i'm not agree with you.
Indochina wasn't "vital" for France it's not really comparable with a battle as Sedan 1870 for me.True.
But it triggered a series of events (décolonisation) whereby France fell from one of the world foremost powers with a world empire, to its present status as a medium-rate power.

... which in turn conduced it to its current policy of merging into the EU, ie to the coming end of France's existence as a standalone military power.
(OK, slightly grandiloquent, here, but you get the point). Of course, DBP was not a cause, but a sign along a path which was probably already written on the wall. But most defeats are this way.


For the victories, on 2nd thought I'd select Poitiers 732 (or Tours in English). Saved Western Europe and christendom from the Caliphate, and marked the turn of the tide for the Arab expansion.

[Musashi]

No replies from Polish folks?

IMHO

Greatest Victory:

Grunwald (Tannenberg) 1410. Definitely one of the greatest symbolic events in our history. Even if much more could have be done after the battle (startegicwise). Anyway, our ancestors defeated evil Germans ;-)

http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/classroom/JM/1410.html
It's the most widely known, but my vote goes for Fuengirola.
It's a shocking phenomena if you defeat an enemy in a bayonet charge in spite of having 10 times less men. Moreover such an opponent is not a Zulu tribe armed with spears, but a major European power at that time, its soldiers are better equipped and contrary to you have a strong artillery and fleet:
http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/Fuengirola.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fuengirola


Greatest Defeat:

Hard to choose. September Campaign in 1939. We fought them well, but...
Evil Germans defeated us.
My vote goes for the battle of Varna in 1444 (against the Ottoman Empire). It was the only battle where a Polish king was killed in combat.
In spite of being outnumbered at least 2:1 the Polish and other Coalition troops were winning the battle and a Turkish sultan decided to retreat from the battlefield seeing no chance to stop them. After that a very young Polish king behaved like an idiot and unexpectedly decided to attack the Sultan's camp having just couple of his bodyguards at him. He was surrounded and killed by the Turks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Varna

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Would not the Battle of Warsaw in 1920 be considered a great Polish victory?

[Musashi]

Megaraptor;2587121']Would not the Battle of Warsaw in 1920 be considered a great Polish victory?
It would, but the forces were quite ballanced during that battle, so it was not as outstanding (but the battle was very important) as we defeated 5-10 more advantageous opponents in our history a few times.

[AZRON]

Okay then,


Defeat: Bladensburg

That was a humiliating defeat but not a strategic defeat.

[Jorge M.]

Venezuela

Victory: Battle of Carabobo against Spain, 1821. Not the biggest battle in terms of Number of troops, but still the most important. :)

Defeat: Battle of La Puerta, 1814?? Maybe not...I dont remember whats the worst defeat we had since I've forgotten a lot of the battles from the war of independence. :-(


Today its the 186th anniversary of the Battle of Carabobo. :)

[SineJustitia]

My two cents as far as The Netherlands are concerned:

Greatest victory: Chatham in June 1667, when the Dutch navy overran the British, burnt 13 ships and captured 2 (incl the Flagship). Dutch Marines captured Sheerness and wreaked havoc just outside of London (which was struck with plague, so we didn't feel too inclined to pillage it...).

Greatest defeat: Although Chatham won us the war against the English, we decided not to ask for the return of a small piece of land the British conquered in that war, but decided to trade it for Suriname. That piece of land was renamed "New York", and the rest is history.

[Buckeye67]

I don't know that I can pick a greatest victory or defeat. These are certainly some important ones though, some of which most aren't familiar with:

For the United States (or the Rev War era American Colonies)

Victories:

Battle of Saratoga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saratoga)
Clark's Campaign in the Illinois Country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_theater_of_the_American_Revolutionary_War)
Battle of Cowpens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cowpens)
Battle of Fallen Timbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fallen_Timbers)
Battle of the Thames (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Thames)


Defeats:
Battle of the Wabash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Wabash)
Battle of Blue Licks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blue_Licks)
Battle of Little Big Horn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Little_Bighorn)

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

I don't know that I can pick a greatest victory or defeat. These are certainly some important ones though, some of which most aren't familiar with:

For the United States (or the Rev War era American Colonies)

Victories:

Battle of Saratoga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saratoga)
Clark's Campaign in the Illinois Country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_theater_of_the_American_Revolutionary_War)
Battle of Cowpens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cowpens)
Battle of Fallen Timbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fallen_Timbers)
Battle of the Thames (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Thames)


Defeats:
Battle of the Wabash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Wabash)
Battle of Blue Licks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blue_Licks)
Battle of Little Big Horn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Little_Bighorn)

Charleston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Charleston)was the worst American defeat during the American Revolution.

The only time an American army of significant size was surrounded and destroyed in the entire war.

[RSone]

Sine my man, i say we rebuild the navy of old(in a modern way of course) and get manhattan back!! lol HOLLAND STRONGG!!!

[Dodge]

Win: I'd say Waterloo and Trafalgar, in the sense of the effect it has had on the conscious of the nation as a whole.

Loss: Undoubtable Singapore, totally and utterly outdone by the Japanese, and the treatment of the thousands of prisoners and the population as a whole is a disgrace.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Loss: Undoubtable Singapore, totally and utterly outdone by the Japanese, and the treatment of the thousands of prisoners and the population as a whole is a disgrace.

You don't think Yorktown or Saratoga would qualify?

[INAT]

Serbia

Defeat:
Battle of Chernomen on Marica, 1371. - Serbian warlords brothers Vukashin and Ugljesha Mrnjavchevic (Вукашин и Угљеша Мрњавчевић) recruited great army to stop ottoman expansion. They were so sure in victory, that one night whole Serbian army got drunk. Turks had slaughtered them on sleeping. After that, began rapid Ottoman expansion.

Victory (there are two battles, I can't decide which is greater victory):
Battle of Velbuzd (Велбужд, today Kjustendil), 1330 - Serbian king Stefan Urosh III Dechanski from Nemanjic (Немањић) dinasty crushed Bulgarian army under emperor Michael (Михаил) Shishman. Bulgarians and Byzantians wanted to attack Serbia at the same time, but Stefan Urosh III crushed Bulgarians so hard, that Byzantians decided to retreat. Bulgarian emperor was killed by Stefan's son Dushan (later emperor Stefan Dushan). After that battle Serbia became major power on Balkans and larger than that.
Battle of Kolubara, 1914. - In november 1914., Austro-Hungary made its 3rd offensive in Serbia. Serbian troops was tired, without artillery ammunition. Serbian army start to retreat constantly. Morale was extremly low. And then, Zivojin Mishic (one of the most talented leaders ever), commander of Serbian 1st Army, decided to retreat deep into Serbian territory and rest his troops. After 3 days, Serbs made great counter attack and banned enemy from its fatherland for 10 days. It is one of rare examples how one army after one month of retreating and low morale, gets back in life so quickly.

@zg18
In battle of Sisak, beside Croatians, there were also units of Serbian "bordermen" from Military border (Varazdin command).

Good choice how about
Victory: returning from Corfu the Balkan front of WWI and marching back into Beograd after sidelining the Bugars.

Defeat: Last 17 years 1999 in particular.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Defeat: Last 17 years 1999 in particular.

Wouldn't you say Serbia is better off without Milosevic in power? Like the Germans on this thread, it could be a great gain or a great defeat, depending on how far into the future you look.

[Lokos]

Defeat: Last 17 years 1999 in particular

We are one of the few nations on this planet that, without great pleasure, may safely assert that we have defeated ourselves three times in two decades.

Lokos

[dan_pub]

We are one of the few nations on this planet that, without great pleasure, may safely assert that we have defeated ourselves three times in two decades.
Lokos
Absolutely.
When more people realize it like you, the path to recovery will start.

[Labud]

^It wasn't military defeats, it was more political defeats.

[Lokos]

We defeated ourselves politically and militarily.

Lokos

[Pleonasm]

[...]

Defeat: Last 17 years 1999 in particular.
If it wasn't for this I would nominate the April War. The peak of this inglorious war was surely the taking of Belgrade by Klingenberg. Hell, a single SS patrol captured the capitol, what a shame. At least the Air Force fought well.

[Labud]

^Yes, April war is after marica battle the biggest shame. But it was the result of bad multi-national army, where every nation had its own reasons (not) to fight.

[SineJustitia]

Sine my man, i say we rebuild the navy of old(in a modern way of course) and get manhattan back!! lol HOLLAND STRONGG!!!

Stop blowing our covert plans! :bash:

[Pleonasm]

^Yes, April war is after marica battle the biggest shame. But it was the result of bad multi-national army, where every nation had its own reasons (not) to fight.

See it the positive way: The Germans and their allies were anyway by far superior, an army with high moral wouldn't have helped us either. And certainly not after the devastating bombing of Belgrade. Leading an army after the enemy severerly damaged your lines of communications isn't very easy at all...

But even these circumstances are lousy excuses for the utterly bad Yugoslavian performance.

[Lokos]

But even these circumstances are lousy excuses for the utterly bad Yugoslavian performance.

The Yugoslavian performance, as you say, was severely hampered by a number of factors. As has already been mentioned, Operation Punishment severely damaged lines of communication and the central hub of the logistical network. However, what was worse was the utterly delusional deployment (or lack thereof) of the Army itself. Single battalions were - more often than not - facing multiple regiments slicing and dicing their way through non-existent defensive lines.

The remnant of the General Staff was then faced by the fact that not all units heeded their orders - and units that did suffered massive desertion rates, and were severely reduced in strength within hours. Despite the valiant fight put up by the airforce, the total Axis control of the skies did not help the situation.

One should take into account that elements of this outmanoeuvred, outclassed army reconstituted themselves and continued the struggle as Chetniks and other insurgents. Its lamentable performance against an enemy that superior is nothing to be ashamed of.

Lokos

[Pleonasm]

[...]

One should take into account that elements of this outmanoeuvred, outclassed army reconstituted themselves and continued the struggle as Chetniks and other insurgents. Its lamentable performance against an enemy that superior is nothing to be ashamed of.

Lokos

That's why I only mentioned the April War...p-)

[Kaplanr]

I'll try to be tactical and not strategic for Israel, and I'm leaving out the War of Independence. No one battle stands out as opposed to several successful operations.

Greatest victory or victories.

1956 & 1967 -- Abu Agheila in Sinai.
1967 -- Moked, the elimination of the Arab air forces on June 5th.
1967 -- Battle for Jerusalem.
1973 -- Valley of Tears.
1973 -- Chinese Farm.
1973 -- Counterattack across the Suez.

Greatest defeats.

1948 -- Old City of Jerusalem.
1948 -- Battles of Latrun.
1948 -- Fall of Gush Etzion.
1973 -- Egyptian crossing of the Suez.

[INAT]

Megaraptor;2591644']Wouldn't you say Serbia is better off without Milosevic in power? Like the Germans on this thread, it could be a great gain or a great defeat, depending on how far into the future you look.


What? Milosevic is hardly what i meant.Yeah he was what he was but I meant in more ways than Military.

Believe it or not in the 70's-80's life was good in Yugoslavia.Not great but much better than the rest of Communist Europe.Living standard for sure.

[INAT]

The Yugoslavian performance, as you say, was severely hampered by a number of factors. As has already been mentioned, Operation Punishment severely damaged lines of communication and the central hub of the logistical network. However, what was worse was the utterly delusional deployment (or lack thereof) of the Army itself. Single battalions were - more often than not - facing multiple regiments slicing and dicing their way through non-existent defensive lines.

The remnant of the General Staff was then faced by the fact that not all units heeded their orders - and units that did suffered massive desertion rates, and were severely reduced in strength within hours. Despite the valiant fight put up by the airforce, the total Axis control of the skies did not help the situation.

One should take into account that elements of this outmanoeuvred, outclassed army reconstituted themselves and continued the struggle as Chetniks and other insurgents. Its lamentable performance against an enemy that superior is nothing to be ashamed of.

Lokos

Yes it was nothing to be ashamed of at all.You also must consider.The Croats (some fought against the invaders) Some helped the Germans.When"Yugoslavs" split like a reed it is not difficult to slice in half.And I am not talking negative about Croats just making that factual point.

[LordTyphus]

well, France certainlly has a taste of greatest defeats (just a popular remark ;0 ), though is rich of great victories as well.

More victories than defeat, though. More victories than any other nation on earth, considering they have been at war non-stop for more than a millenium.

I would say France's greatest victory is the battle of Verdun. A battle of titanic proportion between two powerful nations hellbent on destroying each other. The French proved superior to the German—by just—and emerged as the ultimate victor, prompting Falkenhayn to describe them as a "mastering race".

It is a shame they no longer had the will to fight in WW2, and suffered their greatest defeat, i.e, the Battle of France.

[Anthony91]

United States of America

Victories:
Battle of Belleau Wood (1918)
Battle of Midway (1942)
Operation Overlord (1944)
Battle of Okinawa (1945)
Persian Gulf War (1991)

Defeats:
Battle of Fredericksburg (1862)
Second Battle of Fort Wagner (1863)
Battle of the Kasserine Pass (1943)

[Musashi]

The French proved superior to the German—by just—and emerged as the ultimate victor, prompting Falkenhayn to describe them as a "mastering race".
Did you consider what would happened if the Germans had not been engaged against Russia then? p-)

[LordTyphus]

Did you consider what would happened if the Germans had not been engaged against Russia then? p-)

Well, the Austrian Empire (Austria-Hungary and co) were also on the Eastern front, and they had a population that was around 51 million, while France's population in comparison was only around 40 million. Germany population, all territories accounted for, was around 70 million! They still couldn't defeat France when she stood almost alone (with a small BEF force) at the first battle of Marne.

[Bohemoth]

P R U S S I A
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Flag_of_Preussen_1701-1918.jpg

Defeat:
1792, 20th September: Cannonade of Valmy in France
(defeated by the cheese-eating Frenchmen)

Victory:
1793, 14th September: Battle at Pirmasens in Germany
(kicked them Frenchies back from whence they came)

[LordTyphus]

Valmy was a minor engagement in a strict military sense, but important in a political or propaganda sense.

More humiliating to the Prussian would be Auerstedt, where a 27,000-strong French Corp pulled a double envelope on a Prussian force of 63,000! Never seen before in history.

[Bohemoth]

Valmy was a minor engagement in a strict military sense, but important in a political or propaganda sense.

More humiliating to the Prussian would be Auerstedt, where a 27,000-strong French Corp pulled a double envelope on a Prussian force of 63,000! Never seen before in history.
Of course you are right, just trying hard to ignore it. :)
"Jedem das Seine"

[Ronguild]

Of course you are right, just trying hard to ignore it. :)
"Jedem das Seine"

Dear german brother,
Don't be upset about that, Prussia had a bright revenge over our "grande armée" the 18th june 1815, in Waterloo, when Blucher (old bastard :)) managed to escape Grouchy (idiot :-() forces and rushed to the battlefield to slaughter the french infantry.

Regards
RONGUILD

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Defeats:
Battle of Fredericksburg (1862)
Second Battle of Fort Wagner (1863)
Battle of the Kasserine Pass (1943)

Kasserine Pass wasn't a strategically significant defeat...

[Anthony91]

Megaraptor;2596204']Kasserine Pass wasn't a strategically significant defeat...

Still pretty bad, out of the 12,000 casualties, 6,700 were Americans...

[Bohemoth]

Dear german brother,
Don't be upset about that, Prussia had a bright revenge over our "grande armée" the 18th june 1815, in Waterloo, when Blucher (old bastard :)) managed to escape Grouchy (idiot :-() forces and rushed to the battlefield to slaughter the french infantry.

Regards
RONGUILD
Thank you mon ami for pointing that out.
Blucher did a good job at Waterloo and is rightfully called a great Prussian, but he had some habits that were not very Prussian, e.g. womanizing, drinking etc.:)

[ase290406]

I'll try to be tactical and not strategic for Israel, and I'm leaving out the War of Independence. No one battle stands out as opposed to several successful operations.

Greatest victory or victories.

1956 & 1967 -- Abu Agheila in Sinai.
1967 -- Moked, the elimination of the Arab air forces on June 5th.
1967 -- Battle for Jerusalem.
1973 -- Valley of Tears.
1973 -- Chinese Farm.
1973 -- Counterattack across the Suez.

Greatest defeats.

1948 -- Old City of Jerusalem.
1948 -- Battles of Latrun.
1948 -- Fall of Gush Etzion.
1973 -- Egyptian crossing of the Suez.

The Chinese Farm was actually a defeat, Para's went to clear out AT teams but encountered entrenched infantry. However the battle diverted the Egyptian attention from the convoy carrying parts for a bridge over the Suez. So this unplanned "diversion" helped a lot to cross the canal and encircle 2 Egyptian armies. The war ended 101 km from Cairo and 40 km from Damascus.

[pfcsmith1371]

Any battle in which Chesty Puller was a part of is considered a great victory by my standards(5 Navy Crosses don't lie). Same with Patton, he's like the army's version of Chesty Puller


The Vietnam War and any battle during the US Civil War, besides *****sburg, are the greatest defeats the US has ever had

[Spitfire303]

It would, but the forces were quite ballanced during that battle, so it was not as outstanding (but the battle was very important) as we defeated 5-10 more advantageous opponents in our history a few times.

Where and when and whom?

And I still think that most important Polish victory was Battle of Warsaw in 1920. Polish Army saved Europe against the Red Army. This battle is considered to be the 18th most important battle in history.

[Lokos]

Polish Army saved Europe against the Red Army

Is that a serious statement, my friend? Tukhachevsky's and Trotsky's Red Army, with its inability to provide logistical support over the Vistula... This same Red Army was going to conquer Europe? Seriously?

Please, a little realism.

Lokos

[mas-36]

Come to think of it, without it being a battle or war, the 1983 bombing of the US Marines barracks in Lebanon was a bad defeat for us. We made the strategic decision to withdraw from the region without any serious retaliation, we just left.

[Anthony91]

Come to think of it, without it being a battle or war, the 1983 bombing of the US Marines barracks in Lebanon was a bad defeat for us. We made the strategic decision to withdraw from the region without any serious retaliation, we just left.

Even though that incident was pretty tragic, I don't think it qualifies for our "greatest defeat".

[mas-36]

Even though that incident was pretty tragic, I don't think it qualifies for our "greatest defeat".


Oh, I agree, it wasn't our "greatest defeat" by a long shot, but it was a bad enough one to result in strategic/regional consequences.

Also, can we really claim victories/defeats from the civil wars, considering the two parties involved are fighting their own?

[Anthony91]

Oh, I agree, it wasn't our "greatest defeat" by a long shot, but it was a bad enough one to result in strategic/regional consequences.

I agree with that, we should of took action back then, but we can't do anything about it now.

[hasanito]

Not the greatest one but one of the important one by:
British Forces vs Ottoman Turkish Force at :

1915 AD - Siege of Kut-al-Amara

In World War I, England realized it must protect its Iraqi oil production interests against the German-Turkish alliance. In 1914, British forces began the Mesopotamian campaign at Al Faw. After several easy victories, an attempt on Baghdad was launched. However, the Anglo-Indian forces, commanded by Sir Charles Townshend, were undermanned and their supplies overstretched. In November, 1915, the British approached the ruins of Ctesiphon, on the Tigris 20 miles SE of modern Baghdad. The Turks, under Nur-ud-Din, had positioned about 18,000 experienced men in two trenches on either side of the river. The better-prepared Turks fended off the British, who dragged themselves back to occupied Kut-al-Amara. The Turks besieged the city for 143 days, ultimately forcing a British surrender. 10,000 men went into brutal captivity. The following year, the British finally took Baghdad, but the Siege of Kut-al-Amara was the army's greatest military defeat.

http://www.livescience.com/history/top10_iraq_battles-1.html

[Kowakian ML]

I'd say that Battle of Ivankovac is Serbia's greatest military victory because it lay foundations for "modern" Serbian state.


Battle of Ivankovac was the first real victory of the Serbian rebels. In 1804, Ottoman empire realized that this rebellion was real open war. Because of that they sent Hafis-pasha (commander of Niš) to defeat the rebels. He led an army of 15000 soldiers. Near Ćuprija on left bank of river Large Morava, leader of Serbian rebels Karađorđe Petrović (http://www.answers.com/topic/kara-or-e-petrovi) was waiting for him. Hafis-pasha passed by him, and attacked Duke Milenko Stojkovic, who was entrenched near Ivankovac village with 2500 soldiers, about 4 km from Ćuprija. After an unsuccessful attempt to bribe the Serbian duke (18th August), the Turks attacked. The assault on Serbian trenches lasted the entire day, but in the evening Serbs repelled the attack. The Ottoman army withdrew to the little town Paraćin. The Serbs besieged the town, and bombed it with cannons. One grenade smashed Hafis-pasha's leg, and that made him run back to Niš where he died from his wounds.
This defeat was the turning point to the Turkish decline in the Balkans.

Our greatest defeat? WWI.

[janush]

As for the Netherlands.
Greatest Victories.
Battle of Heiligerlee(1568)
Battle of Turnhout (1597)
Battle of Gibraltar (1607)
Raid on the Medway (1667)
Waterloo (1815)

Greatest Defeats
Battle of Lowestoft (1665)
Battle of Camperdown (1797)
Dutch East Indies (1942)
Srebrenica (1995)

[number nine]

For Serbia, greatest victory is probably battle of Velbuzhd, 1330. and greatest defeat battle of Maritsa, 1371.

In newer history greatest victory came in 1914. with battles of Cer and Kolubara.
Greatest defeat in modern times was perhaps battle of Slivnitsa, 1885.

I can give you links to wikipedia articles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Velbuzhd
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Maritsa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kolubara
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Slivnitsa

[fin0084]

I'd say that Battle of Ivankovac is Serbia's greatest military victory because it lay foundations for "modern" Serbian state.


Our greatest defeat? WWI.
Okay your WW1 started at 1805.:roll:

[Labud]

For Serbia, greatest victory is probably battle of Velbuzhd, 1330. and greatest defeat battle of Maritsa, 1371.

In newer history greatest victory came in 1914. with battles of Cer and Kolubara.
Greatest defeat in modern times was perhaps battle of Slivnitsa, 1885.

I can give you links to wikipedia articles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Velbuzhd
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Maritsa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kolubara
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Slivnitsa

The choice, almost same as mine. :) Battle of Slivnitsa, and whole Serbo-Bulgarian war, was our big mistake.

[Lokos]

Okay your WW1 started at 1805.

What are you talking about? The quoted passage is clearly about a battle that happened in 1805 - the Battle of Ivankovac. He considers that the greatest victory. WWI he considers the greatest defeat. It has nothing to do with the quoted passage.

Lokos