PDA

View Full Version : 5.56 does no apparent damage



BadTolz
06-22-2007, 03:08 PM
This guy has been shot multiple times and is in no apparent pain at all?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=871_1182481390

Lov3ll
06-22-2007, 03:14 PM
They're probably drugged up to the eyeballs p-)

Sabre
06-22-2007, 04:10 PM
And? There are hard****s in the world. Though Lov3ll may be right and he's doped up.

IDF_TANKER
06-22-2007, 04:36 PM
They might be in shock, I don't think they even feel the pain yet. The lucky bastards probably were shot from a close distance. From a long distance they wouldn't have such a clean small wounds.

lt tahoe
06-22-2007, 04:49 PM
And ballistic terminal effects isn't an exact science. I just read about a woman who shot her estragned ex-husband with a .22 pistol 3 times--he staggered out into the yard and died. Then there was a cop who shot a home-invasion suspect with her issue .45 pistol 3 times, and he lived long enough to shoot her, go outside and shoot another cop before being taken down.

Until you get into very large-caliber weapons, there is no guarantee that a hit means it will kill, or even disable.

OldRecon
06-22-2007, 05:11 PM
This reminds me watching the afthermath of the assatination of president Anwar Sadat of Egypt on the news.
There was one wounded guy in the audience with his whole right arm torn off who just calmly looked at his lost limb while holding it up with his remaining hand without muttering a word.
Obviously pain hadn't had time to set in yet.

playtym
06-22-2007, 05:21 PM
And ballistic terminal effects isn't an exact science. I just read about a woman who shot her estragned ex-husband with a .22 pistol 3 times--he staggered out into the yard and died. Then there was a cop who shot a home-invasion suspect with her issue .45 pistol 3 times, and he lived long enough to shoot her, go outside and shoot another cop before being taken down.

Until you get into very large-caliber weapons, there is no guarantee that a hit means it will kill, or even disable.


The book Stopping Power by Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow contains a report of a shooting involving two guys in a boarding house.

They get into an argument and both go to their rooms to get their guns. One comes out with a .45 and empties the magazine into the other guys chest. The bloke whose been shot then kills the guy wielding the .45 with one shot to the chest from his .22LR.

He then goes back to his room, changes his t-shirt because it's full of holes, and then catches two buses to the emergency room where he recovers from his wounds.

kongman
06-22-2007, 05:33 PM
5.56 isnt designed to kill just wound......that way it take more men to take the wounded man back for treatment taking more soldiers out of the fight ...or so i thought thats how it works

muck
06-22-2007, 05:35 PM
A friend of mine who is a cop told me, that above all it depends on the condition of the person who was shot, especially the body height and build. In his district, an officer had to use his weapon once in a case of domestic violence against a man who tried to stab him down. He shot the guy with his standart-issued P6 four times into both thighs and one times into the hip but he was still standing on his feet.

An even more incredible story about a MEK-raid in Hamburg was in the news a few years ago (2000 I think)...After breakdown of negotations, a cop had shot a hostage taker on point blank range two times into the head with his .357 Magnum S&W-Revolver. The perpetrator was still adressable and even continued to insult the cops with permanent maledictions.

Well, to get back to topic...There were some interesting stories about the apparently bad stopping power of the 5,56 in the WWW. I wondered how those could be true, but it seems that they can.

By the way - because mentioned here - does that often happen that insurgents are on drugs? I mean, call me naive, but doesn't Quran forbid drugs?

Aerosoul
06-22-2007, 05:35 PM
5.56 isnt designed to kill just wound.

Interesting. ....

usm2b
06-22-2007, 05:37 PM
5.56 isnt designed to kill just wound......that way it take more men to take the wounded man back for treatment taking more soldiers out of the fight ...or so i thought thats how it works

I can't see the military adopting a primary round to just 'wound'.

kaibil1944
06-22-2007, 05:37 PM
5.56 isnt designed to kill just wound......that way it take more men to take the wounded man back for treatment taking more soldiers out of the fight ...or so i thought thats how it works


5.56 its made for incapacitation and kill, the only difference with other calibers its that the 5.56 its faster so the bullet tends to pass threw and not like other calibers that stay inside of the person, so being as fast and with the adrenaline, you will feel the shoot minutes later well the real pain or maybe days later. :bash:

IDF_TANKER
06-22-2007, 05:45 PM
All this conversation reminded me this one (3:30):
http://www.youtube.com/v/aikIr6p9Dtg

Boris the bullet dodger...:)

orange
06-22-2007, 05:49 PM
I can't see the military adopting a primary round to just 'wound'.
It actually is a major purpose of the round! Then of course there are alot of other reasons for the relatively small round that 5,56 is. It doesn't weigh a ton, it's easy to manage ie. not much of a recoil etc.

And do you really think the armed forces of the world wants to kill all enemies? Nope!

For one thing, dead guys don't talk.. See my point?

Oh, and the 5,56 doesn't always just pass clean through, alot of the times it wobbles, causing more serious injuries than, say, a 7,62!

Macs.
06-22-2007, 05:50 PM
In his district, an officer had to use his weapon once in a case of domestic violence against a man who tried to stab him down. He shot the guy with his standart-issued P6 four times into both thighs and one times into the hip but he was still standing on his feet.

Look at the latest shooting incident here in Germany. The policeman who shot the guy in the car, and he only shot 4 times, but still killed the guy.


An even more incredible story about a MEK-raid in Hamburg was in the news a few years ago (2000 I think)...After breakdown of negotations, a cop had shot a hostage taker on point blank range two times into the head with his .357 Magnum S&W-Revolver.

MEK Hamburg is still using these S&W-Revolvers... Badass.

MississippiMarine
06-22-2007, 05:54 PM
5.56 isnt designed to kill just wound......that way it take more men to take the wounded man back for treatment taking more soldiers out of the fight ...or so i thought thats how it works


That just is not the case. The 5.56 is meant to be a lightweight intermediate bullet - more powerful than 9mm for close in work, but powerful enough for longer range work. It is a compromise. My Ops Chief killed 4 insurgents in Ramadi with 10 shots, 3 were killed with a double taps to the head. The fourth took a double tap to the pelvis that took him off his feet and left him crawling. While crawling, he continuing firing and the Sgt finished him with a double tap to the head. I also know of several instances where insurgents took multiple hits and kept right on moving and shooting, so...it all depends on where it hits.

Given that many fights are decided by gaining and maintaining fire superiority which involves lots of surpressive, area fire. You can burn through lots of ammo. That being the case, 7.62x51 weighs twice as much as 5.56x45, carrying 200-300 rounds of ammo gets heavy, keep in mind you have all your PPE (Personal Protective Equipment - Helmet, vest, SAPI plates), water, grenades, comm gear, night vision gear, weapon...

JaketheSnake
06-22-2007, 05:54 PM
I've seen this before.

For someone who was apparently just shot he doesn't seem to be bleeding too much. Those look more to be from shrapnel than anything else.

The 5.56 is lethal and deadly... No question.
ETA the rifle is an AR15 carbine.

http://vid10.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid10.photobucket.com/albums/a141/XicanoPwr/border.flv

playtym
06-22-2007, 05:56 PM
5.56 its made for incapacitation and kill, the only difference with other calibers its that the 5.56 its faster so the bullet tends to pass threw and not like other calibers that stay inside of the person, so being as fast and with the adrenaline, you will feel the shoot minutes later well the real pain or maybe days later. :bash:


Dr Martin Facklers test results do not appear to support your theory that lighter faster bullets pass through.

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/3949/m80vr3.jpg

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/2453/ak47762x39mmtc0.jpg

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/8793/m855fo2.jpg

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/7936/m193lr0.jpg

kaibil1944
06-22-2007, 06:01 PM
Dr Martin Facklers test results do not appear to support your theory that lighter faster bullets pass through.


Has Dr Martin been shot?, my belief is that the smallest the caliber the faster the bullet and the 5.56 it surelly tends to pass threw not always but it tends many of the times, im sure of that i have seen it and can prove it.

playtym
06-22-2007, 06:03 PM
Has Dr Martin been shot?


I'm not sure. Have you ever been shot?

kaibil1944
06-22-2007, 06:05 PM
I actually manage a bullet wound in the arm

Dling
06-22-2007, 06:05 PM
Has Dr Martin been shot?, my belief is that the smallest the caliber the faster the bullet and the 5.56 it surelly tends to pass threw not always but it tends many of the times, im sure of that i have seen it and can prove it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the 5.56 used in the m16 tend to start tumbling after going a couple of cm after hitting something, specially at the higher velocities when its more unstable?

budgie
06-22-2007, 06:05 PM
Okay so if a Jihadist is shot and keeps fighting he's 'drugged up': when a GI is shot and keeps fighting he's a courageous hero. Let's face facts people are all the same and some tak to pain betetr than others. In the end the damage from an untreated wound is still the same for everyone, it's just that some deal with it better than others.

Macs.
06-22-2007, 06:06 PM
Why don't we keep our hands off that calibre discussion and leave it to the high-paid people who work on that stuff since decades ?

Hollis
06-22-2007, 06:07 PM
I feel so used, I really don't know what to say. All this time the NVA we killed in Viet-Nam with the 5.56 were not dead, they were only faking it....................:roll:

Dling
06-22-2007, 06:08 PM
I feel so used, I really don't know what to say. All this time the NVA we killed in Viet-Nam with the 5.56 were not dead, they were only faking it....................:roll:


I don't think ur allowed to leak out info like that;-)

IDF_TANKER
06-22-2007, 06:09 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the 5.56 used in the m16 tend to start tumbling after going a couple of cm after hitting something, specially at the higher velocities when its more unstable?
You mean - with lower velocities are more unstable? And the answer is - yes.

kaibil1944
06-22-2007, 06:09 PM
Actually people manage a wound in a different way, there are ones that cry like babies while others stay calm and keep trying to fight, im sure a lot of soldiers when they get shot they still fighting and save lives and they are not high.

And why to create a non deadly weapon?, its idiotic, i personally like a soldier wouldnt thrust in my combat rifle if i know its not lethal, it means that im almost disarm.

And yeah it tends to lose direction and control but it also depends on how far its the target.

playtym
06-22-2007, 06:10 PM
I actually manage a bullet wound in the arm


I'm sorry to hear that, I hope you're recovering.

Does one need to be shot in order to be a ballistics expert though?

That's like saying you can't be a neurosurgeon unless you've undergone neurosurgery yourself. :roll:

kaibil1944
06-22-2007, 06:15 PM
No but its the same does being a neurosurgeon knows about ballistics maybe he does, but im just talking about my personal experiences as military and victim, and thanks im fully recover now.

playtym
06-22-2007, 06:23 PM
No but its the same does being a neurosurgeon knows about ballistics maybe he does, but im just talking about my personal experiences as military and victim, and thanks im fully recover now.


He's not a neurosurgeon, I was just drawing a comparison.

He's one of the foremost ballistics experts in the world, so yeah, he's pretty clued up on terminal ballistics.


Are you making this assertion of 'passing through' based on your experience of a 5.56mm bullet having passed through your arm?

If you look at the diagrams you'll see that you'd need to have a bicep about 15" thick for a 5.56mm bullet to fragment in it. I don't think anyones arm is that wide. :)

kaibil1944
06-22-2007, 06:27 PM
oh sorry i though he was, then again it wasnt that part of the arm in which the bullet went threw it was in the lower part of the arm a very weird spot to get shot at, but it went threw had a part of the bone broke but again i was lucky that it was more flesh than bone, actually i still got the scars. :)

Givati575
06-22-2007, 06:28 PM
Given that many fights are decided by gaining and maintaining fire superiority which involves lots of surpressive, area fire. You can burn through lots of ammo. That being the case, 7.62x51 weighs twice as much as 5.56x45, carrying 200-300 rounds of ammo gets heavy, keep in mind you have all your PPE (Personal Protective Equipment - Helmet, vest, SAPI plates), water, grenades, comm gear, night vision gear, weapon...

hey he's right, i carry 650 7.62mm rounds for my mag, and it's ****ing hell

Wall
06-22-2007, 06:38 PM
Lets get compromise to this 5.56 vs 7.62= 6.5 Grendel

muck
06-22-2007, 07:06 PM
Dr Martin Facklers test results do not appear to support your theory that lighter faster bullets pass through.

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/3949/m80vr3.jpg



One question to this picture, just for my understanding. A usual man is of course no 65+ cm thick like this block of ballistic gelatin. Does the same wound necessarily appear nonetheless or does only happen what is illustrated from, let's say 0 to 30 cm?

LKSXXX
06-22-2007, 07:08 PM
I think this has already turned into a caliber discussion.
What about the 7.62x39? Is it the about same weight as the 7.62x51 NATO? Probably not right?

Correct me if what I'm saying is just nonesense because I'm not an expert.
Lets say the bullet is composed of the case, the gunpowder and the projectile.
Suppose a soldier had to carry a 7.62x39 and his army decides to swith to 5.56x45. Didn't the army just trade the same weight the soldier has to carry for 'gunpowder+case' instead of 'projectile'?
Of course there's the question about accuracy etc., but does that depend more on the rife than on the caliber?
We're basically looking at the stopping power of the M-16 with the AK-47, a very beatun up discussion and IIRC, the AK-47 has better stopping power, although poor accuracy.

LKS.

muck
06-22-2007, 07:15 PM
5,56x45mm NATO: 62/4,0 grains/gram
7,62x39mm : 122/7,9 grains/gram
7,62x51mm NATO: 168/10,9 grains/gram

That's at least what my guidebook says.

Seraphim
06-22-2007, 07:21 PM
http://homepage.mac.com/thesw0rdofroland/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pictures/2006-03-20%2020.11.35%20-0800/Image-9754382AB89011DA.jpg

playtym
06-22-2007, 07:23 PM
One question to this picture, just for my understanding. A usual man is of course no 65+ cm thick like this block of ballistic gelatin. Does the same wound necessarily appear nonetheless or does only happen what is illustrated from, let's say 0 to 30 cm?


My understanding is that the diagram illustrates the bullets path, as well as the temporary stretch cavity, from the point of impact to the point at which it comes to rest.

The wound channel inflicted would be that part illustrated that is within the dimensions of your body. So, if your torso measures 30cms from front to rear, you'd have a wound channel similar to that illustrated in the first 30cms of the diagram.

There is apparently some disagreement between the folk who study this stuff as to whether temporary stretch cavity or permanent crush cavity is the better indicator of 'stopping power'. This is the whole large slow bullet Vs small fast bullet debate that will rage for as long as we have firearms.

LKSXXX
06-22-2007, 07:25 PM
5,56x45mm NATO: 62/4,0 grains/gram
7,62x39mm : 122/7,9 grains/gram
7,62x51mm NATO: 168/10,9 grains/gram

That's at least what my guidebook says.

I looked it up on wikipedia and found a different result for the 7.62x51:
7.62x51 NATO: 146,6gr / 9,5g

I'm reading the article about the 5.56 right now, very good!

LKS.

Laworkerbee
06-22-2007, 07:26 PM
I'm not sure. Have you ever been shot?

I have what do I win? :)

muck
06-22-2007, 07:28 PM
I looked it up on wikipedia and found a different result for the 7.62x51:
7.62x51 NATO: 146,6gr / 9,5g


I found even one more result - just because there are different kinds of cartridges p-):
7,62x51mm NATO Ball M80 150gr/9,7g
7,62x51mm NATO Ball M852 168gr/10,9g

@playtym
Thanks for the explanation!

playtym
06-22-2007, 07:28 PM
I have what do I win? :)


I'm not sure, but you may be a ballistics experts now. You better look into it. :)

Laworkerbee
06-22-2007, 07:31 PM
Freaking sweet I have always wanted the authority to say this:

All 9mm handguns should be replaced with .45 1911's

Seraphim
06-22-2007, 07:32 PM
Freaking sweet I have always wanted the authority to say this:

All 9mm handguns should be replaced with .45 1911's

rofl

Can I be second in command...Ive been technically shot at.

playtym
06-22-2007, 07:33 PM
Freaking sweet I have always wanted the authority to say this:

All 9mm handguns should be replaced with .45 1911's


I take it you were shot with a 9mm then?

Laworkerbee
06-22-2007, 07:34 PM
You can be in command since I'm a complete and utter hypocrite. I sold my 1911 and picked up a Glock 17 and have never looked back and the skin between my pointy finger and thumb have been happy ever since.

Laworkerbee
06-22-2007, 07:35 PM
I take it you were shot with a 9mm then?

No I was shot with a .270 Remington, quite messy.

LKSXXX
06-22-2007, 07:37 PM
What do I get to be in charge of from being shot with a bb gun?

LKS.

schwarz
06-22-2007, 07:37 PM
No I was shot with a .270 Remington, quite messy.


Ouch how did that come about?

playtym
06-22-2007, 07:37 PM
No I was shot with a .270 Remington, quite messy.


Jeez dude, .270's a nasty calibre.

We don't want to replace all 9mm's with that though because they clearly don't work. p-)

playtym
06-22-2007, 07:40 PM
What do I get to be in charge of from being shot with a bb gun?

LKS.



The Web Cadets (http://www.webcadets.com) p-)

Laworkerbee
06-22-2007, 07:48 PM
Ouch how did that come about?

range accident

thank god my head was tilted enough back that the round did not hit straight on. The round hit about half an inch above my left eye, it stayed under the skin and cut a nice groove into my skull whilst cracking it like an eggshell and came out of the top of my head

I thought I was dead and I kinda wished I was when I was in physical therapy.

schwarz
06-22-2007, 07:51 PM
range accident

thank god my head was tilted enough back that the round did not hit straight on. The round hit about half an inch above my left eye, it stayed under the skin and cut a nice groove into my skull whilst cracking it like an eggshell and came out of the top of my head

I thought I was dead and I kinda wished I was when I was in physical therapy.


Holy ****! I am glad your ok now.





And yes .270 is nasty round but I love it:)

Laworkerbee
06-22-2007, 07:53 PM
Yes I'm fine besides the occasional migraine but I take it in stride. On the other hand if you ever need a good plastic surgeon go see Von Burr in Mission Viejo, CA. the man is a master!!!

LKSXXX
06-22-2007, 07:54 PM
range accident

thank god my head was tilted enough back that the round did not hit straight on. The round hit about half an inch above my left eye, it stayed under the skin and cut a nice groove into my skull whilst cracking it like an eggshell and came out of the top of my head

I thought I was dead and I kinda wished I was when I was in physical therapy.

SHAIT!!!

LKS.

playtym
06-22-2007, 07:58 PM
And yes .270 is nasty round but I love it:)


I love it too, but damn, it's a nasty round to be on the receiving end of.


I'm glad you survived that Laworkerbee.

Laworkerbee
06-22-2007, 08:01 PM
Thanks Buddy me too :)

I've been meaning to ask you about this system I thought was in service in SA years ago for vehicle defense. It was a bunch of 12 gauge shells loaded into cylinders in a 360 arc and operated by a hand crank inside the vehicle.

Ever seen it?

playtym
06-22-2007, 08:04 PM
Thanks Buddy me too :)

I've been meaning to ask you about this system I thought was in service in SA years ago for vehicle defense. It was a bunch of 12 gauge shells loaded into cylinders in a 360 arc and operated by a hand crank inside the vehicle.

Ever seen it?


Yeah, it was called the Holland Hale Organ, and was developed in Rhodesia. There's a pic of a vehicle in the recce game thread with one on. I'll have a look on my drive and see if I can find some more for you.

Laworkerbee
06-22-2007, 08:05 PM
Thanks I always thought that was the best system ever, you boys get real creative in Africa.

Seraphim
06-22-2007, 08:25 PM
Thats quite a story there LWB...how come you never shared it before?

Laworkerbee
06-22-2007, 08:30 PM
Thats quite a story there LWB...how come you never shared it before?

I've posted it a while back here before, I think it gave Aero nightmares. I know I posted it in one of the mary jane threads about how I used pot to help with the nausea associated with the migraines I get.

Seraphim
06-22-2007, 08:42 PM
I've posted it a while back here before, I think it gave Aero nightmares. I know I posted it in one of the mary jane threads about how I used pot to help with the nausea associated with the migraines I get.

You're just a left wing hippie arent you!!! p-)

Glad you made it out ok.

kingrabbit
06-22-2007, 10:33 PM
different folks different effects.. we had a hodjie dirt farmer up in the mountains take three 7.62 rounds from an ak-47 at about 0600hrs.. at about 1900hrs he was finally able to get out of hiding and away from the taliban that shot him,after hiding behind a rock all day he walked about 10 klicks to us and survived his wounds. now that was just a regular lil farmer, these are some tough folks over here. we give them little credit cause they dont know how to fight or fight "un fair" , but damn they are tough lil suckers.

but hollow points work sweet.. *so i've heard*

SomeGeek
06-22-2007, 11:02 PM
I'm not sure. Have you ever been shot?

Busted!

Don't forget, the 556 AP 109 is designed to go through body armor or cover too. Maybe it's a good idea to mix your ammo type. Two shots, one kill.

That's a hell of a story, LAWB.

Cheers to you, kaibil1944.

D-gin
06-22-2007, 11:08 PM
I sold my 1911 and picked up a Glock 17 and have never looked back

I'm at a loss for words after reading that.

kongman
06-22-2007, 11:40 PM
doesn't the american army still use the standard 5.56 the ap one ......the bullet is designed to beat armour so you get aot of thru and thu's with little damage .........but maby they have changed that ......i thought the rules said your not allowed to use hollow ponits in battle or maby the full metal jacket is more accurate..........it also depends on the rifleing of the barrel to early m-16 had a slower twist in the barrel , then end result was that it was blowing limbs off and doing alot of dam , but the down side less accurate .....they changed it later on and put more twist in the barrel to make it more accurate but less stoppin power........

kongman
06-22-2007, 11:41 PM
I'm at a loss for words after reading that.


i think both have good and bad points.............

D-gin
06-22-2007, 11:47 PM
i think both have good and bad points.............

I know, I was just giving workerbee crap since I'm a 1911 nut.

Robbee
06-23-2007, 12:02 AM
5.56 isnt designed to kill just wound......that way it take more men to take the wounded man back for treatment taking more soldiers out of the fight ...or so i thought thats how it works

Have a read of Tony Williams (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=4351)' post here (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2571466&postcount=20).

I wonder if vBulletin can be scripted to post this every time it detects "isn't designed to kill, just wound"

;)

Sand Man
06-23-2007, 01:37 AM
Can anyone point me to a good .45 vs. 9mm discussion thread?

I'm pretty sure there's been a lot of these kinds of discussions like this over the years but the good ones are quite hard to find...

Thanks.

krasnayaarmiya
06-23-2007, 02:25 AM
5.56 isnt designed to kill just wound......that way it take more men to take the wounded man back for treatment taking more soldiers out of the fight ...or so i thought thats how it works

Or maybe to be able to carry more ammunition, in order for more soldiers to be produce more suppressive fire, fire more shots, have more available time on target, etc.

JDZ
06-23-2007, 04:23 AM
Maybe I have another explanation. I worked on a Intensive Care station for 2 years and recognized that most old people can take some real bad OPs without a lot of analgesia after, while young people need a lot. That dude seems to be in his late 50s so that, adrenaline and diazepam or so maybe an explanation. So without discussing stopping power etc. I'd personally say that with those wounds I would lie in the dirt and scream for pain killers...

Herrmannek
06-23-2007, 06:05 AM
Maybe I have another explanation. I worked on a Intensive Care station for 2 years and recognized that most old people can take some real bad OPs without a lot of analgesia after, while young people need a lot. That dude looks to be in his late 50s so that and adrenaline maybe an explanation. So without discussing stopping power etc. I'd personally say that with those wounds I would lie in the dirt and scream for pain killers...
Lets scream together... But I must warn you I faint exactly 3 minutes after I can see my inside on the outside :)

HoboWithAK
06-23-2007, 06:16 PM
They might be in shock, I don't think they even feel the pain yet. The lucky bastards probably were shot from a close distance. From a long distance they wouldn't have such a clean small wounds.

Generally the closer you are to target with M193 and M855, the less clean it is. Not sure about point-contact shots, though i'm nearly positive they'd be nastier than a hit from 200M out.

Luno
06-23-2007, 06:21 PM
5.56 isnt designed to kill just wound......that way it take more men to take the wounded man back for treatment taking more soldiers out of the fight ...or so i thought thats how it works
the only weapon i know that work that way is the old Anti-personnel (AP) mines they where are often designed to injure rather than kill in order to increase the logistical support

snoddy
06-23-2007, 06:25 PM
5.56 will go through anyone upto 50-75m easy, sometimes with no crying or wailing. ive seen a guy get shot through the arm and be fine at "50 yards". check the stats at muzzle vel. fps is amazing.

SOF magazine had an article about the m16A2 round, talked alot about ballistics and how upto 50 yards it didnt drop the target but when targets reached out to 125meters and beyond it dropped them hard.

BTDT.

schwarz
06-23-2007, 06:33 PM
Just a quick google. Sure theres better info out there.

http://www.ak-47.net/ammo/ss109.txt

And yes 5.56 is a very fast round.

playtym
06-23-2007, 07:59 PM
5.56 will go through anyone upto 50-75m easy, sometimes with no crying or wailing. ive seen a guy get shot through the arm and be fine at 20 yards. check the stats at muzzle vel. fps is amazing.

SOF magazine had an article about the m16A2 round, talked alot about ballistics and how upto 50 yards it didnt drop the target but when targets reached out to 125meters and beyond it dropped them hard.

BTDT.

M193 ball, like any spitzer bullet, will yaw in soft tissue and at velocities above approx. 2,700fps may fragment at the cannelure. Out of a 20" barrel it's clocking 3,200fps at the muzzle. At 200 metres the velocity will be under 2,500fps and fragmentation will probably not occur. This light bullet needs velocity to perform optimally, and this is why SF units equipped with the M4 carbine got so excited about the 6.8mm SPC cartridge. Out of the 14.5" barrel the velocities that make the 5.56x45mm round effective just aren't there at longer ranges.

You're not going to see the real potential of this cartridge with a shot to the arm. As you can see from the diagram the largest part of the wound cavity only starts to occur after around 13cm of penetration, when the bullet begins to yaw and fragments. Up to that point you're just punching a 5mm hole through the guys arm.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/7936/m193lr0.jpg

Institutionalized
06-23-2007, 11:25 PM
Maybe that guy's vital organs weren't damaged. As for the pain, he may have been wasted on drugs or he could juswt have an unusual pain threshold.

sreto
06-23-2007, 11:45 PM
He looked pretty normal so I doubt the 'drugs' would have been used. The bullet just hit him and didn't fragment and exited. Some people don't feel it, but then the pain comes afterwards, kind of like when you are in a fight.

HoboWithAK
06-24-2007, 10:34 PM
5.56 will go through anyone upto 50-75m easy, sometimes with no crying or wailing. ive seen a guy get shot through the arm and be fine at 20 yards. check the stats at muzzle vel. fps is amazing.

SOF magazine had an article about the m16A2 round, talked alot about ballistics and how upto 50 yards it didnt drop the target but when targets reached out to 125meters and beyond it dropped them hard.

BTDT.

You're backwards.

And the next person who tells me 5.56x45 was designed to wound and not kill should be shot with it.

schwarz
06-24-2007, 10:39 PM
You're backwards.

And the next person who tells me 5.56x45 was designed to wound and not kill should be shot with it.


Ah how I wish that would happen.

22.5degrees
06-25-2007, 12:05 AM
http://www.ammo-oracle.com/

Check it out. Read it thoroughly. Then check out some published articles by Dr. Fackler. after that, come back and post something factual not some **** you read in SOF or some crap you heard from a friend's cousins brother who served.

(no offence to those who serve.)

22.5

SomeGeek
06-25-2007, 12:08 AM
Have a read of Tony Williams (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=4351)' post here (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2571466&postcount=20).

I wonder if vBulletin can be scripted to post this every time it detects "isn't designed to kill, just wound"

;)

It probably could, but then it would crash the server.

Slug69
06-25-2007, 02:10 AM
No I was shot with a .270 Remington, quite messy.

I haven't seen anything survive one shot from a .270.

One of the most powerfull hunting rounds I have seen in operation.

Just the report alone is enough to make me wince when at a range (with ear protection.)

gilgoul
06-25-2007, 02:27 AM
I haven't heard the magic words, M193 and SS109, those two rounds are quite different in their weight, ballistics and effect.
I understand that for very short range operation, the old M193 tumbles better, thus wounds better, but if you engage targets at longer ranges and/or equipped with kevlar protection, then the SS109 is the round for you.
In anyway, the 223 rounds are good rounds in personal weapons, light and effective against most targets.

Nevins
06-25-2007, 03:46 AM
http://www.ammo-oracle.com/

Check it out. Read it thoroughly. Then check out some published articles by Dr. Fackler. after that, come back and post something factual not some **** you read in SOF or some crap you heard from a friend's cousins brother who served.

(no offence to those who serve.)

22.5

nice link
thanks


kinda off topic
is the 6.8 rem being used at all overseas?
i havnt heard anything about it, besides 5th GRP.(iirc) recived some M468s
any field reports?

playtym
06-25-2007, 03:54 AM
I haven't heard the magic words, M193 and SS109, those two rounds are quite different in their weight, ballistics and effect.
I understand that for very short range operation, the old M193 tumbles better, thus wounds better, but if you engage targets at longer ranges and/or equipped with kevlar protection, then the SS109 is the round for you.
In anyway, the 223 rounds are good rounds in personal weapons, light and effective against most targets.


You can't have been paying too much attention then.

Here are diagrams representing the wound channels of both (although the names aren't actually on the diagrams). *Gasp* I even used the name 'Dr. Martin Fackler'!
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2585165&postcount=18


And then over here the M193 is actually mentioned by name.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2587299&postcount=79


:roll:

snoddy
06-25-2007, 12:38 PM
You're backwards. And the next person who tells me 5.56x45 was designed to wound and not kill should be shot with it.

a person got hit twice through a suv door at about 100yards, there was no wailing??? some crying but that was it. i was there.

a person got shot through the windsheild @50 yrds, hit in the arm while trying to protect his face, the round went straight through, again i was there.

please xplain why i have it backwards?

snoddy
06-25-2007, 12:47 PM
http://www.ammo-oracle.com/
Check it out. Read it thoroughly. Then check out some published articles by Dr. Fackler. after that, come back and post something factual not some **** you read in SOF or some crap you heard from a friend's cousins brother who served.(no offence to those who serve.)22.5

i was serving when i saw these events take place?

Laworkerbee
06-25-2007, 12:50 PM
I haven't seen anything survive one shot from a .270.

One of the most powerfull hunting rounds I have seen in operation.

Just the report alone is enough to make me wince when at a range (with ear protection.)

It took me quite some time before I was able to fire a rifle again, I would shake and at times hyperventilate before squeezing the trigger.

Needless to say accuracy suffered ;-)

Seraphim
06-25-2007, 01:24 PM
It took me quite some time before I was able to fire a rifle again, I would shake and at times hyperventilate before squeezing the trigger.

Needless to say accuracy suffered ;-)

Thats called withdrawal.

Laworkerbee
06-25-2007, 01:32 PM
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

good one Man

LKSXXX
06-27-2007, 06:06 PM
Does this make sense?
From what I understood up until now there's an "optimum velocity interval" at which the round will impair maximum damage (framentation, tumbling, etc.). The velocity of the projectile drops when it leaves the gun, if the person happens to be whithin the distance where the round achieves "optimum velocity", you have maximum damage. If he's before the "interval", he gets a lot of holes (unless it hits the bone). If he's beyond the "interval", the bullet may go through or stay inside him but not fragment.
This applies for any type of bullet.

LKS.

22.5degrees
06-27-2007, 06:37 PM
Again,
Follow the link, read it all then come back with questions.

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#m193orm855


To answer your question lksxxx. The optimal velocity to achieve fragmentation with M193 or M855 ball ammo is any velocity over 2700 FPS. at what distance positive fragmentation can be achieved is provided in the link.


22.5

snoddy
06-27-2007, 07:17 PM
But as a baseline, these numbers are what you could expect for 75 F, 25% humidity, at sea level, from various barrel lengths:Distance to 2700 fps



But as a baseline, these numbers are what you could expect for 75 F, 25% humidity, at sea level, from various barrel lengths:
14.5" Barrel
M193 95-100m
M855 45-50m
As you can see, barrel length and ammo selection make a major impact on fragmentation range.

nice, helps alot.