Jewish settlers fear Golan withdrawal

[Lov3ll]

Jewish settlers fear Golan withdrawal
By Martin Patience
BBC News, Golan Heights


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42412000/jpg/_42412858_golan_ap203b.jpg
Could Israel be prepared to pullout of the Golan Heights after 40 years?

On the eastern shore of the Sea of Galilee stands a statue with an old man crouching over his fishing rod.
The man is the deceased Syrian leader Hafez Assad and a fish - in the shape of the Sea of Galilee - dangles from the rod.
The statue is intended as an Israeli jibe at the Syrian leader.
In 2000, US-brokered peace talks broke down over disagreements on the Golan Heights, the strategic plateau that Israel seized from Syria during the 1967 Middle East War and then unilaterally annexed in 1981.
Israeli legend has it that the peace talks were dashed when Mr Assad demanded that he be able to dip his feet in the Sea of Galilee after any peace deal. (The pre-1967 Syrian-Israeli borders run about 100 metres from the shore.)
But now the issue of the occupied Golan Heights is back on the agenda.
Earlier this month, an Israeli newspaper reported that Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert had secretly sent messages to President Bashar Assad - the son of Hafez - offering a full withdrawal from the Golan in exchange for full peace.
Two Israeli cabinet ministers also confirmed that the Israeli government has approached Syria about the possibility of renewing peace talks.
But if Israel were to return the occupied Golan Heights it would want firm security guarantees and access to water.
Israel says that the occupied Golan Heights are of strategic military importance as it overlooks its villages and cities in the plains and elevations in the north.
A major water basin lies under the Golan Heights providing Israel with about a third of its water supplies.

There is also the matter of the 40,000 residents of the occupied Golan Heights - approximately half are Jewish settlers, and the other half Druze who remained in the territory following the Israeli occupation.
Among the population there is scepticism that there will be any major agreement in the near future - the occupied Golan Heights has, after all, been in Israeli hands for over 40 years now.
And there has been talk of potential deals several times in the past. But if any agreement was reached, it's very likely that the Jewish population would be forced to leave the territory.
Astrid Hasday, 45, would be one of them. She moved to the Golan over 15 years ago with her husband, who works for the Society for the Protection of Nature in Israel, an environmental organisation.
The mother-of-two, who works as the manager of Bazelet Hagolan winery, one of 10 located in the territory, enthuses about the rolling hills, grape vines and orchards in the occupied Golan Heights.
She does not regard herself as a settler insisting "that you can easily be left-wing and live in the Golan and still feel you're very much part of Israel."
While Mrs Hasday says that the latest initiative is "not serious", she welcomes any Israeli attempts to negotiate with Syria.
If part of any peace deal was the evacuation of the occupied Golan Heights, Mrs Hasday says she would leave, but reluctantly.

Screaming valley

Further to the north in the Golan Heights, Paul Hecht, 25, works in the vine-yard of El Rom Kibbutz. From where he waters, prunes and tends the vines he can see the minarets, buildings, and wind turbines of a Syrian town a few miles across the border.
Mr Hecht says that he does not see the Golan Heights as occupied but as essential to Israel's security following what he - and most other Israelis - views as a defensive war. (Most Arabs see the 1967 war as an Israeli war of aggression.)
"Every country has to fight to achieve secure borders and that's the case for Israel and the Golan Heights," he says, standing close to a disused bunker from the 1967 war.
"We need the Golan Heights to protect ourselves and they (Syria) don't." But Mr Hecht, like Mrs Hasday, would leave the territory if the Israeli government asked him.
At the northern-most part of the occupied Golan Heights lies the town of Majdal Shams, home to about half of the Druze population in the occupied territory.
The town is perched on the slopes of the majestic Mount Herman - or Jabal Sheikh to Arabs - straddling the Israeli-Syrian border.
Under any agreement, it is likely that the Druze community would return to Syrian control. Culturally - in terms of language and traditions - the Druze are closer to the Syrians.
Many of the residents here have been separated from their families for over 40 years. Sometimes relations stand on either side of the border and communicate with each other through microphones in a spot called "Screaming Valley."
But after 40 years of Israeli control, some Druze have come to enjoy the freedoms of Israeli life.
One 25-year-old waitress at a local restaurant says that while she wished for a return to Syrian rule she worried about the country's weak economy.
Another man says that many Druze are fearful to criticise Syria as they may one day have to answer to the authorities.
But Ismail Fakhereddin, a Druze ski-instructor at the local resort says that all that matters to him is the beauty of the natural surroundings. "I'll live in whatever country controls the mountain," he says.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6230468.stm

[Doublethinker]

What the hell are jewish settlers doing there?

[Cedan]

What the hell are jewish settlers doing there?

making a living

[Snoshi]

What the hell are jewish settlers doing there?

Its Israeli area now.. We won it in war..

[zad]

What the hell are jewish settlers doing there?

The same as in West Bank.

[Moledet]

The same as in West Bank.
Not the same, West Bank was not annexed, the Golan Heights were annexed.

These reports usually comes once a year, the Golan Heights won't be returned to the Syrians at most there will be an agreement that we are "renting" the territory for XXX amount of years for some 10 figures number.

[Doublethinker]

making a living

It was evident that the land would have to be returned to Syria, Israel never even claimed it to be an integral part of itself. They sound more like crazy radical ones, who settle on occupied lands on purpose to prevent the return of the territories.

[Doublethinker]

Its Israeli area now.. We won it in war..

Really? Is it confirmed by any international treaty?

[~Berdan]

Really? Is it confirmed by any international treaty?

Actually it is.Absolutely so,and if you call west bank and Gaza "disputed"(cause those were not actually annexed,but something strange in between,that sometimes goes west against geneva third convention I bellieve),there is nothing disputed against Golan.

[Doublethinker]

Actually it is.Absolutely so,and if you call west bank and Gaza "disputed"(cause those were not actually annexed,but something strange in between,that sometimes goes west against geneva third convention I bellieve),there is nothing disputed against Golan.

Actually there isn't. Syria and Israel never signed a peace treaty which would transfer Golan Hights to Israel. Moreover, Israel is to return Golan Hights to Syria in accordance with the UN resolution 242.

[Moledet]

There's no agreement but the land was annexed, the land according to the UNSC will be returned only as part of a peace agreement though it doesn't have to be returned if both sides agree to not return it.

[Ecchi Oni]

There's no agreement but the land was annexed, the land according to the UNSC will be returned only as part of a peace agreement though it doesn't have to be returned if both sides agree to not return it.
Typical jew logic.

[loganinkosovo]

The Israelis should have taken Lebanon, Half of Syria, Half of Egypt, Jordan....in other words, most of the middle east by now. If they were any other country they would have.

Do you think that we would allow neighboring countries to attack us again and again and again and again without destroying those countries, taking their land and eliminating their will to fight forever?

The Jews have been the model of restraint when it comes to conquest of territories. Look at the bloody map for Christ's sake. The Golan is absolutely necessary for the survival of Israel. Any enemy getting their hands on the Golan allows them to rocket the major cities.


If any other country was attacked several times by neighboring countries, those countries would not exist anymore.

Plan A for Germany was the Marshal Plan. Most people were voting for Plan B in 1945.


And any other people would have eliminated the Trans-Jordanians who call them selves "Palestinians" after picking the wrong and losing side of every war and attacking the Jews nearly every day. Do you think the Russians would put up with that? The Chinese? The Americans?

Syrian should just be thankful they still exist. And that is looking kinda iffy in the future.

[Flagg]

Typical jew logic.

Enjoy your holiday away

[LRPV]

Typical jew logic.

Got a problem, sport?

[GromGrad]

I can see the problem people have with Israel occupying Palestinian lands but what is the big deal about Golan? Syria was stupid enough to attack and they lost, now tough ****. I am no Zionist, i don't even like Israel all that much but why the love for Syria? What have they ever done that was good? The way i figure it is if you got your ass kicked attacking another country, you are lucky to be even able to govern yourself. Not every people in the world are that fortunate, Syria should be happy it even exists.

[sinophile]

... i don't even like Israel all that much ...

Way to establish your credentials.

[dimasorokine]

Way to establish your credentials.

Who cares? Why is not liking Israel such a horrible thing? Really, I would like to know.

-Dima

[LRPV]

Who cares? Why is not liking Israel such a horrible thing? Really, I would like to know.

-Dima

If I read Prustin correctly, it's not about which countries are personally favoured, it's about tact and diplomacy on the site. It makes it hard to engage people if you have alienated them.

[dimasorokine]

If I read Prustin correctly, it's not about which countries are personally favoured, it's about tact and diplomacy on the site. It makes it hard to engage people if you have alienated them.

Nah, if anything it makes it easier to start a nice long debate (which for many people is what this forum is all about) :)

-Dima

[GromGrad]

Way to establish your credentials.

p.s. Im a jew.

[LRPV]

Nah, if anything it makes it easier to start a nice long debate (which for many people is what this forum is all about) :)

-Dima

A nice long debate...or...RussiaStrong 111 wars?p-)

[Mu-Meson]

p.s. Im a jew.

Way to establish your credentials

[GromGrad]

Way to establish your credentials


I must be missing something.

[dimasorokine]

LOL at the 4 posts above! LOL again.

-Dima

PS: RussiaStrong is the truth, but I never bring up the undeniable FACT in debate - it's not fun that way :)

[Kilgor]

I can see the problem people have with Israel occupying Palestinian lands but what is the big deal about Golan? Syria was stupid enough to attack and they lost, now tough ****. I am no Zionist, i don't even like Israel all that much but why the love for Syria? What have they ever done that was good? The way i figure it is if you got your ass kicked attacking another country, you are lucky to be even able to govern yourself. Not every people in the world are that fortunate, Syria should be happy it even exists.

X2

If you get your ass kicked in a war, be prepared to lose terrority.

[LRPV]

LOL at the 4 posts above! LOL again.

-Dima

PS: RussiaStrong is the truth, but I never bring up the undeniable FACT in debate - it's not fun that way :)

Yep, Russia Strong111.

PS, have air defences improved since Mathias Rust?p-)

[dimasorokine]

Yep, Russia Strong111.

PS, have air defences improved since Mathias Rust?p-)

I have no idea what you are talking about :( Sorry - but hopefully so now that we have the money

-Dima

[Shadowstorm]

Please guys! Let's keep this on topic.

[kamaz]

I grew up in Kaliningrad, Russia (aka Konigsberg, former German/Prussian territory, home of Emannuel Kant)

Russia won this sliver of land from Germany in ww2, Germany attacked and lost, and Russia kept this land as part of its conquest and victory. Why arent you RussiaStrong!!! members questioning the legality of this little transaction, yet Israeli conquests are somehow mired in 'international legality'

typical 'jew mentality' right?

[Crassus]

I grew up in Kaliningrad, Russia (aka Konigsberg, former German/Prussian territory, home of Emannuel Kant)

Well, keep the Königsberg you have turn it to ****hole, but it would be nice if you turn the coffin of Immanuel Kant back to Germany.
As a friend of philosophy that would do justice for his remains because his period of thought was known Enlightment - so Russians have no use for his remains

[kamaz]

Well, keep the Königsberg you have turn it to ****hole, but it would be nice if you turn the coffin of Immanuel Kant back to Germany.
As a friend of philosophy that would do justice for his remains because his period of thought was known Enlightment - so Russians have no use for his remains


not getting laid lately?

[Bosnian_Brawler]

Same logic as Nazi Germans by taking over other countries....If everyone would do the same, than Japan and Germany would not exist...because they lost in WW2....It is sad that to see that from people that suffered the most in WW2

[Snoshi]

Same logic as Nazi Germans by taking over other countries....If everyone would do the same, than Japan and Germany would not exist...because they lost in WW2....It is sad that to see that from people that suffered the most in WW2

LOL!!!! Everyone just does the same.. Not only Nazi Germany annexed terretorys.. Also your comment is way off.. We dint annex Syria or any big city for that matter.. Our war was also defensive..

But who am i talking too..

[kamaz]

Same logic as Nazi Germans by taking over other countries....If everyone would do the same, than Japan and Germany would not exist...because they lost in WW2....It is sad that to see that from people that suffered the most in WW2

why should israel just give up land that it gained in a defensive war? a war started by Syria. why?

unless its part of a permament peace agreement, the land is a bargaining chip in negotiations, and no nation on this earth would simply give up land (especially strategic land like Golan) for nothing.

Syria has done virtually nothing to show that they want a true and honest peace, and this summer's war with Hez, just shows the world exactly what Assad thinks of any peace agreements. the Golan will not be returned for nothing, like Gaza was.

[Elemental666]

Ahhh nevermind stupid people with their stupid comments...

[Crassus]

not getting laid lately?

Yes, you are right, what do you think should I do, read less?

As you know, ignorance is a blessing - in the endp-)

[GromGrad]

Same logic as Nazi Germans by taking over other countries....If everyone would do the same, than Japan and Germany would not exist...because they lost in WW2....It is sad that to see that from people that suffered the most in WW2


No one but the Germans and the Japanese would care. If the neighboring countries could keep those lands after ww2 they would. The real truth is it is hard to occupy foreign land for many many years especially with countries as big as Germany and japan, if it wasn't hard, there wouldn't be a Germany or japan after ww2 and no body would care.

[Doublethinker]

There's no agreement but the land was annexed, the land according to the UNSC will be returned only as part of a peace agreement though it doesn't have to be returned if both sides agree to not return it.

Outstanding reasoning. 1. If I'm not mistaken, Israel is part of the UN and also waived the right to solve territorial conflicts by force and agreed to observe the ruling of the UN SC. 2. The whole of Israel could also be turned over to Palestine as a part of a peace agreement. But we don't pin much hope on that, do we?

[Zuze]

why should israel just give up land that it gained in a defensive war? a war started by Syria.
Read some history books. Israel started six day war not arabs.

[Pekhota]

It is the settler's own fault at this, they should haven known illegally settling in this area would lead to problems down the road...I'm glad that Israel is actually showing some interest in negotiating about Golan Heights with Syria.

[Mr.Flint]

Read some history books. Israel started six day war not arabs.
Technically its a continuation of 1948, or the 1956, war, because cease fire, is not an end of a war.
And there is a little matter of a casus belli and rather agressive troop movements that followed it...

[kamaz]

Read some history books. Israel started six day war not arabs.

nonsense. the syrian/egyptian offensive started weeks before any IDF offensive actions. Syria and Egypt brought reserves and positioned thousands of troops on the borders, a clear provocation, while Egypt closed off shipping lanes to Israeli ships in the straits of tiran, while Nasser called for a genocide in his daily public announcements.

Israeli kibutz and civilian areas were shelled daily by Syrian artillery from the Golan mountain tops. It is you who should read the actual account, a good start is Six Days of War by Michael Oren.

[kamaz]

Israel should give the golan back when Russia gives Kaliningrad back to germany.

[Luno]

nonsense. the syrian/egyptian offensive started weeks before any IDF offensive actions. Syria and Egypt brought reserves and positioned thousands of troops on the borders, a clear provocation, while Egypt closed off shipping lanes to Israeli ships in the straits of tiran, while Nasser called for a genocide in his daily public announcements.

Israeli kibutz and civilian areas were shelled daily by Syrian artillery from the Golan mountain tops. It is you who should read the actual account, a good start is Six Days of War by Michael Oren.

Very interesting can you back that up?
and what date the six day war started ?

[kamaz]

Very interesting can you back that up?
and what date the six day war started ?

1967 war was a continual conflict stemming from previous wars since 1948.

The resident historians here make the claim that Israel started the war, so the war wasnt a defensive one, which is a silly claim to make, it would only be true if the war started from within an empty vacuum.

historical timeline: (from wikipedia), also read Michael Oren's book, its excellent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War



1. Egypt kicks out UN force from Sinai, in preparation for invasion

Withdrawal of the United Nations Emergency Force
At 10:00 p.m. on 16 May, 1967 the commander of UNEF, General Indar Jit Rikhye, was handed a letter from General Mohammed Fawzy, Chief of Staff of the United Arab Republic, reading: "To your information, I gave my instructions to all U.A.R. armed forces to be ready for action against Israel, the moment it might carry out any aggressive action against any Arab country. Due to these instructions our troops are already concentrated in Sinai on our eastern border. For the sake of complete security of all U.N. troops which install OPs along our borders, I request that you issue your orders to withdraw all these troops immediately." Rikhye said he would report to the Secretary-General for instructions


2. Egypt declares war by closing Straits of Tiran to Israeli ships


The Straits of Tiran
On May 22, Egypt announced that the Straits of Tiran would be closed to "all ships flying Israel flags or carrying strategic materials", with effect from May 23 .[37]. The Arab Republic of Egypt established the breadth of its territorial sea at 12 nautical miles, pursuant to article 5 of the Ordinance of 18 January 1951 as amended by the Decree of 17 February 1958, in line with the provisions of article 3 of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.[4] Whereas article 23 of the Convention stipulates that the ships in question shall, when exercising the right of innocent passage through the territorial sea, carry documents and observe special precautionary measures established for such ships by international agreements, the Government of the Arab Republic of Egypt declared that it would require the aforementioned ships to obtain authorization before entering the territorial sea of Egypt, until such international agreements are concluded and Egypt becomes a party to them.




3. Speeches of war and conquest

At the end of May 1967, Jordanian forces were given to the command of an Egyptian General Abdul Munim Riad.[54] On the same day, Nasser proclaimed: "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel ... to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not of more declarations."[55] Israel called upon Jordan numerous times to refrain from hostilities. Hussein, however, was caught on the horns of a galling dilemma: allow Jordan to be dragged into war and face the brunt of the Israeli response, or remain neutral and risk full-scale insurrection among his own people. Army Commander-in-Chief General Sharif Zaid Ben Shaker warned in a press conference that "If Jordan does not join the war a civil war will erupt in Jordan".[56]





4. Massing of huge armies on Israel's border in preparation for invasion


The combatant armies
On the eve of the war, Egypt massed around 100,000 of its 160,000 troops in the Sinai, including all of its seven divisions (four infantry, two armored and one mechanized), as well as four independent infantry and four independent armored brigades. No less than a third of them were veterans of Egypt intervention into the Yemen Civil War and another third were reservists. These forces had 950 tanks, 1,100 APCs and more than 1,000 artillery pieces.[74] At the same time some Egyptian troops (15,000 - 20,000) were still fighting in Yemen.[75][76][77][78] Nasser's ambivalence about his goals and objectives was reflected in his orders to the military. The general staff changed the operational plan four times in May 1967, each change requiring the redeployment of troops, with the inevitable toll on both men and vehicles. Towards the end of May, Nasser finally forbade the general staff from proceeding with the Qahir ("Victory") plan, which called for a light infantry screen in the forward fortifications with the bulk of the forces held back to conduct a massive counterattack against the main Israeli advance when identified, and ordered a forward defense of the Sinai.[79] In the meantime, he continued to take actions intended to increase the level of mobilisation of Egypt, Syria and Jordan, in order to bring pressure on Israel.

Jordan's army had a total strength of 55,000,[80] but it too was embroiled in the fighting in Yemen. Syria's army had 75,000 troops.[81]

[Luno]

kamaz
Thanks That’s allot of info but you miss one thing look at the name six day war yes six days and it started by Israel launched a pre-emptive attack on Egypt's airforce (5 June), what happened before wont change that fact,

[kamaz]

kamaz
Thanks That’s allot of info but you miss one thing look at the name six day war yes six days and it started by Israel launched a pre-emptive attack on Egypt's airforce (5 June), what happened before wont change that fact,

what happens before is crucial to the present. You cant just say "oh, Israel started the whole thing out of nowwhere"

thats just BS. thats a dishonest and flawed way to look at history. Yes, the fact is they struck first, but not without a precedent and a valid reason for doing so. You can spin it anyway you want, but the fact is, Syria lost the golan heights by attacking Israel, since it did attack first in 1973 war, which it lost again.

[Luno]

what happens before is crucial to the present. You cant just say "oh, Israel started the whole thing out of nowwhere"

thats just BS. thats a dishonest and flawed way to look at history. Yes, the fact is they struck first, but not without a precedent and a valid reason for doing so. You can spin it anyway you want, but the fact is, Syria lost the golan heights by attacking Israel, since it did attack first in 1973 war, which it lost again.


Not its not a flamed way to look at history,
and I support what Israel did in the six day war :hug:, the Arabs where preparation for invasion so Israeli did the right thing to strike first , but still they did start the war by doing that

[Kilgor]

I grew up in Kaliningrad, Russia (aka Konigsberg, former German/Prussian territory, home of Emannuel Kant)

Russia won this sliver of land from Germany in ww2, Germany attacked and lost, and Russia kept this land as part of its conquest and victory. Why arent you RussiaStrong!!! members questioning the legality of this little transaction, yet Israeli conquests are somehow mired in 'international legality'

typical 'jew mentality' right?

good point....

[Pekhota]

what happens before is crucial to the present. You cant just say "oh, Israel started the whole thing out of nowwhere"

thats just BS. thats a dishonest and flawed way to look at history. Yes, the fact is they struck first, but not without a precedent and a valid reason for doing so. You can spin it anyway you want, but the fact is, Syria lost the golan heights by attacking Israel, since it did attack first in 1973 war, which it lost again.

Nevertheless, pre-emptive wars are very aggressive and it's not about spinning anything. The fact is, Israel attacked first.

[cbreedon]

kamaz
Thanks That’s allot of info but you miss one thing look at the name six day war yes six days and it started by Israel launched a pre-emptive attack on Egypt's airforce (5 June), what happened before wont change that fact,

Closing Straits of Tiran to Israeli ships... this is called a blockade and is generally considered an act of war.

If a country blockades your countries port's I would think that all bets are off.

[kamaz]

Nevertheless, pre-emptive wars are very aggressive and it's not about spinning anything. The fact is, Israel attacked first.



ok dude, israel attacked first. i hope this settles your conflicting emotions.