Operation Marita: The German invasion of Greece

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Introduction

The Greek High Command was fully aware that Germany would not permit its ally, Italy, to be embroiled in an embarrassing war indefinitely. In mid-January 1941, therefore, the Greeks seized their last chance and opened an offensive that was intended to drive the Italians from Albania before the Wehrmacht could intervene. Early March, German troops marched into Bulgaria, and a British expeditionary force, which with earlier arrivals eventually numbered approximately 62,500 troops, began moving into Greece. The Greek Army, commanded by Marshal Alexandros Papagos
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had a total effective strength of 420,000 men. The army command believed that at the Metaxas Line, a series of fortifications that covered the Bulgarian border, could withstand a German attack.

Hellenic Army History Directorate
The Battle of ROUPEL [official chronicles], April 6-10, 1941

The following extract, from the official archives of the Hellenic Army History Directorate, is the Greek perspective on the Greek-German conflict at ROUPEL, in April 1941:
A.The Kingdom of Bulgaria, by March 1, 1941, had allowed the German troops to enter into its territory. In exchange, after the battle & the German victory, Bulgaria was allowed to annex the Greek area of the Strymon valley to the Aegean sea.
B.Greece, since October, was in a state of War with the Kingdom of Italy. Despite the fact that almost her entire armed forces had been engaged in the War with Italy, Greece, without hesitation, decided to defend herself against the German agression, remaining faithful to her traditions, whatever the cost.
C.The battle of the fortresses at the Roupel gorge, took place from April 6-10, 1941.

ORDER OF BATTLE
1. German Forces: The Twelfth Army (12.Armee-Oberkommando) under the command of Field Marshal (Generaloberst) Wilhelm List
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This army composed of the following units:
-XVIII Mountain Corps (XVIII Gebirgsarmeekorps), under General der Gebirgstruppen (Lieutenant General) Franz Boehme, consisted of the 2d Panzer Division/2.Panzer-Division (based at Marianopol)
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5th and 6th Mountain Divisions/5.-6.Gebirgs-Division (based at Petritsi & Meleniko)
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72d Infantry Division (at Nevrokop)
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and the reinforced 125th Infantry Regiment (at Marianopol)
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These troops moved into assembly areas in southern Bulgaria opposite the Greek border.
-XXX Army Corps (XXX. Armeekorps)
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under General der Artillerie (Lieutenant General) Otto Hartmann, composed of the 50th and 164th Infantry Divisions/50.-164.Infanterie-Division (at Pasmakli & Kridjali)
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-XL Panzer Corps (XL.Panzerkorps) under General der Panzertruppen (Lieutenant General) Georg Stumme, composed of the 9th Panzer Division/9.Panzer-Division
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the reinforced 1st SS Motorized Infantry Regiment (Leibstandarde SS-Adolf Hitler)
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and the 73rd Infantry Division/73.Infanterie-Division (at Dubnica)
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In total, Germans attacked Greece with 3 Panzer Divisions, 2 Mountain Divisions, 4 Infantry Divisions.
To drive the Greek forces from the Roupel neck, Germans used the 5th Mountain Division & the independent 125th Infantry Regiment. More specifically, the responsibility to attack the direction from Roupesko to Paliouriones was taken by the 5th Division & the responsibility to attack Roupel was taken by the 125th Regiment (reinforced with one battalion of the 5th Division, plus one Engineers Battalion). 200 Airplanes supported the attacking units.
2. Bulgarian Forces: The coverage of the Greek-Bulgarian border was undertaken by the VII Infantry Division (stationed at Sveti-Brats), by the X Infantry Division (at Dospat) & the I Infantry Division (at Pasmakli). Bulgarian forces, did not engage the Greeks.
3. Greek forces: The defence of the area Beles-Nestos river was put under the responsibility of the units of Eastern Macedonia Army Command or TSAM . This army was composed of the following units:
-The XIX Mechanized Infantry Division (at Kilkis).
-The Division Group (XVIII & XIV Infantry Division), covering the three-nations borderline form Beles to Strymon river-XVIII ID and from Strymon river to Nevrokopi valley-XIX ID .
-The VII Infantry Division (at Drama).
-The Nestos Brigade (at Xanthi).
-21 fortresses or bunkers, from Beles to Nestos river with 8,500 Officers and men:
Fortress Popotlivitsa: 17 Officers, 277 men, two 75mm Guns, one 20mm A/A Gun, two mortars, 21 MGs.
Fortress Istibey: 17 Officers, 440 men, two 75mm Guns, one 37mm A/T Gun, one 20mm A/A Gun, two mortars, 26 MGs.
Fortress Kelkaya: 7 Officers, 236 men, one 37mm A/T Gun, 18 MGs.
Fortress Arpaluki: 13 Officers, 354 men, one 75mm Gun, one 20mm A/A Gun, two mortars, 19 MGs.
Fortress Paliouriones: 15 Officers, 592 men, two 75mm Guns, two A/T 37mm Guns, one A/A 20mm Gun, three mortars, 31 MGs.
Fortress Roupel: 44 Officers, 1353 men, two 75mm Guns, five A/T 37 mm Guns, one A/A 37 mm Gun, three 20mm A/A Guns, five mortars, 85 MGs.
Fortress Karatas: 28 Officers, 783 men, three 75mm Guns, one A/A 20mm Gun, four mortars, 46 MGs.
Fortress Kale: 30 Officers, 902 men, two 75mm Guns, one 20mm A/A Gun, 3 mortars, 51 MGs.
Fortress Persek: 9 Officers, 200 men, one 75mm Gun, one A/A 20mm Gun, two mortars, 12 MGs.
Fortress Babazora: 22 Officers, 695 men, two 75mm Guns, one 20mm A/A Gun, four mortars, 35 MGs.
Fortress Maliagha: 19 Officers, 578 men, two mortars, 42 MGs.
Fortress Perithori: 7 Officers, 249 men, three 75mm A/T Guns, two mortars, 18 MGs.
Fortress Partaluska: 4 Officers, 124 men, three 75 A/T Guns, 8 MGs.
Fortress Dasavle: 4 Officers, 83 men, two 75mm A/T Guns, 5 MGs.
Fortress Lisse: 12 Officers, 457 men, three 75mm A/T Guns, three 75mm A/A Guns, three 20mm A/A Guns, two mortars, 22 MGs.
Fortress Pyramidoid: 4 Officers, 173 men, two 75mm A/T Guns, 11 MGs.
Fortress Castillo: 8 Officers, 173 men, one 75mm A/A Gun, one A/A 20mm Gun, 10 MGs.
Fortress St. Nicholas: 14 Officers, 297 men, one 20mm A/A Gun, two mortars, 16 MGs.
Fortress Bartiseva: 20 Officers, 504 men, one 75mm Gun, one 20mm A/A Gun, four mortars, 27 MGs.
Fortress Echinos: 26 Officers, 806 men, two 75mm Guns, two A/T 75mm Guns, one 20mm A/A Gun, four mortars, 46 MGs.
Fortress Nymphaea: 14 Officers, 464 men, two 75mm A/T Guns, one A/A 20mm Gun, two mortars, 27 MGs.
In total, the Greek forces composed of a Division Group Command, 3 Infantry Divisions, 1 Infantry Brigade & 1 Mechanized Infantry Division.
-The defence of the Roupel gorge, was undertaken by the XVIII ID (at Neon Petritsi). More specifically, the Greek fortresses had been under the protection of the Oulaka Subsector under Colonel Georgios Karpenitsiotis (at Detsista). The Oulaka Subsector composed of the I/70 Infantry Battalion, 4 companies from the 81st & 91st Infantry Regiment, 2 field artillery batteries (75mm), 2 batteries of heavy artillery (6"), an artillery squadron of 85mm guns, 4 A/T artillery squadrons (75mm) and the fortresses ISTIMENE, KELKAYA, ARPALUKI & PALIOURIONES. In total, 2 Infantry battalions, one Infantry company, 24 artillery guns & the garrisons of the fortresses.
-At the eastern bank of the Strymon river, was stationed the XIV ID (at Serres), with the Subsector of Siderokastron under Colonel/Syntagmatarches Epameinondas Zesimopoulos. The Siderokastron Subsector composed of:
II/81 Infantry Btn, one Infantry Company & the fortresses ROUPEL & KARATAS. Two Infantry Companies & the fortress KALES. The 41st Infantry Regiment (minous one Btn). In total, the Siderokastron subsector had 3 Infantry Btns, 64 artillery guns and the garrisons of the fortresses ROUPEL, KARATAS & KALES.

THE BATTLE

April 6, 1941:
1-PALIOURIONES FORTRESS
The German attack started at 08:30 on the area TOPOLNITSA-Advanced Post 148-Advanced Post 147-Height 205 . From 07:30-08:30 , heavy artillery bombardment & air bombings. Greek forces intercepted the German advance before the line Height 248-Height 158 . German Motorized Artillery tried to penetrate moving from the west Strymon bank to the main road. They were destroyed by direct hits from the fortress guns. German attempts to penetrate the fortress continued during the day. In the night, new attempt was stopped with heavy casualties.
2-ROUPEL FORTRESS
The German attack started at 05:30 with heavy artillery bombardment. From 06:00, waves of 12-40 Stuka aircrafts, attacked the fortress. At 06:00 the main German attack began with elements of the 125th IR (one battalion) trying to cross river BISTRICA toward the direction KULA-PROMACHON-ROUPEL & with a second btn advancing toward the direction NOVO HODJOVO-KAPNOTOPOS-KAPINA. Both btns advanced & reached a distance of 200m/660 feet away from ROUPEL. One Greek Infantry Company, trying to slow down the progression of the enemy, withdrew southward, near KAPINA. The bridge on river BISTRICA, was destroyed by a direct artillery hit. Small enemy units managed to reach USITA & climbed on top of the MOLON LAVE fortress, they were detected by our forces though and eliminated. 18 assault boats appeared on the Strymon river. The first boat, carrying 14 troops & one officer, was caught on the barbwire & pinned down. The rest of the boats were fired upon by the fortresses USITA & PALIOURIONES. Many Germans killed or got drowned. Few survivors swimmed back & reached the advancing units of the I/125 Btn. The attacking II/125 Btn, managed to penetrate in the area between the fortresses ROUPEL & KARATAS (one German Company). This Company was eliminated. The survivors withdrew toward KLEIDION. Two more Companies of the same Btn, had the same fate, the survivors withdrew toward the TSUKA Height. By 12:00 the troops from TSUKA, began to harass our artillery set at KLEIDION. More Germans advanced & captured KLEIDION at 16:00 and continued to harass our artillery during the night. To eliminate the german forces at KLEIDION, was sent on sight an Infantry platoon & a squadron of light armored cars of the 191st Mechanized Regiment from SIDEROKASTRON. They failed to eliminate the German threat. To the aid of the Germans at KLEIDION, the 6th Company of the II/125 German Btn arrived on time.
3-KARATAS FORTRESS
Enemy activity limited to air & artillery bombardments.
4-KALES FORTRESS
Enemy activity confined to air bombardment
OTHER ACTIVITIES
In the night of April 6, the CO of TSAM ordered the withdrawal of all the units-with the exception of the forces defending the fortresses-of the XVII ID, to BELES, in the area southward of the Strymon river, at MEGALOCHORION. The II/41 Btn, received orders to move & hold the area of the Strymon eastern bank, from the SIDEROKASTRON BRIDGE to ROUPEL. Enemy casualties were serious. 3 planes were shot down by the USITA FORTRESS A/A guns.

April 7, 1941:
PALIOURINES FORTRESS
No serious enemy activities. Sporadic machine-gun fires & light air bombings
ROUPEL FORTRESS
The German attack started at 05:45, with heavy artillery bombardment. Waves of 30-40 Stuka aircrafts attacked the KAPINA area. To eliminate the Germans at KLEIDION, more Greek units (two companies) arrived & attacked. Enemy troops facing destruction, withdrew at GOLIAMA HEIGHT. There, they organized their defence. During the day, the German troops on GOLIAMA, received food, ammunition & medical supplies by air. Greek II/41 Btn attacked GOLIAMA (16:00). It met heavy resistance and was pinned down at a distance of 300m/1000 feet away from the GOLIAMA top. III/41 Btn attacked GOLIAMA from the area LOUTRA HILL, managed to pursuit the enemy troops, failed to capture the ridge though.
KARATAS FORTRESS
Enemy activity confined to air bombardment. With its artillery fire, supported ROUPEL.
KALES FORTRESS
Minimun enemy activity.
OTHER ACTIVITIES
On April 7th, Germans captured the FORTRESSES ISTIBEY, KELKAYA & ARPALUKI & by-passed the POPOTLITSA FORTRESS. Elements of the XVIII ID, withdrew toward the Strymon river, destroying the MEGALOCHORION BRIDGE & the PETRITSI RAILROAD BRIDGE.

April 8, 1941:
PALIOURIONES FORTRESS
The Germans, after the capturing of ISTIBEY, KELKAYA & ARPALUKI FORTRESSES, concentrated their efforts on PALIOURIONES FORTRESS. In the night, enemy units penetrated in the area between HEIGHTS 368-224 & occupied the area around 368 HEIGHT. The Germans on GOLIAMA, with artillery & air support, repeled various Greek attacks. III/81 Btn of the XVIII ID moved toward GOLIAMA.
KARATAS FORTRESS
Enemy activity confined to air bombardment. With its artillery fire, supported ROUPEL.
KALES FORTRESS
Enemy activity confined to artillery bombardment.

April 9, 1941:
PALIOURIONES FORTRESS
More German attempts to occupy the fortress. Paliouriones remained surrounded by German forces.
At 17:30 German messengers announced the Greek Officer incharge of the PALIOURIONES defence, that the capitulation of the Greek Army is in effect. Through negotiations, they reached to a cease fire agreement.
ROUPEL FORTRESS
From 14:00-15:00 enemy artillery & air bombardment.
At 17:00 German messengers announced the capitulation of the Greek Army. A cease fire was agreed, effective immediately.
A detachment of the 41st Regiment under the Regiment's CO, arrived at GOLIAMA & commenced an offensive operation against the German troops there. At 05:30, III/81 & III/41 Btns attacked the German positions on GOLIAMA. Both Btns suffered serious casualties due to the constant enemy artillery & air bombardment. Two German counter-attacks repeled. The struggle continued for the whole today.
KARATAS FORTRESS
In the morning, supported ROUPEL with artillery fires against German detachments trying to penetrate inside it from the East.
KALES FORTRESS
Minimum enemy activity.

April 10, 1941:
PALIOURIONES FORTRESS
A German delegation arrived to accept the surrender of the fortress. The German Colonel congratulated its garrison. He expressed his admiration of the heroic resistance. Then, accompanied with the Greek CO, they inspected the lined up troops. The Germans stroke the Greek flag only after the depart of its garrison.
ROUPEL FORTRESS
The German Officer, commissioned to accept the surrender of the fortress, congratulated its CO and expressed his admiration for the heroic resistance. The German CO of the 125 Infantry Regiment, said to Lt.Col. Plevrakis: "I do not weep for my men, as a soldier, because their sacrifice was necessary; I weep for my men as Human, because my Regiment sufferd a disaster of huge proportions"

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The insubordination of the Maliagha Fortress, April 9, 1941

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Inside a Greek Fortress of the Metaxas Line

The Maliagha Fortress was part of the Karadag battle Compound under Colonel Georgios Salvanos. During the battles of the Metaxas line, the Karadag compound fought the Germans with remarkable gallantry. Not one of its fortresses (Persek, Babazhora, Maliagha, Perithori, Partaluska) fell into the enemy's hands. On the contrary, the defenders of the fortresses, forced the German 72 Infanterie Division (Infantry Division) to stem its advancing in the Serres valley, after having suffered heavy casualties (250 Germans were held as prisoners at the Karadag HQ at Kato-Vrontou, 102 more troops were captured & held inside the Perithori fortress. Hundreds of Germans were lying dead before the obstacles or the barbwire of the Karadag Compound Fortresses)
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A Greek Fortress during the battle of the Metaxas line

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The main entrance of the Nymphaeon Fortress. The bust is of its heroic CO Major Alexandros Anagnostos...
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...The marks on the wall, are actual bullit holes of the period
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Blue-print of a machine-gun nest:
1-machine-gun chamber
2-firing panel
3-antechamber
4-bolt hole stairs
5-auxiliary exit
6-niche with lighting fixture
7-loophole
8-observation post

At noon of April 8, the Germans, after the collapse of the Yugoslav resistance, invaded Greece from the Greek-Yugoslav border, by-passing the Metaxas line. At 14:00 the first German armored personnel carriers, entered Salonika. Thus, on 9 April, the Greek Second Army capitulated unconditionally. In the morning of April 9, Colonel Salvanos calls his sector's commanders (Lt.Col Andreas Georgopoulos, Lt.Col Charalambos Krassanakes) for an emergency meeting. They all reached to a unanimous decision: The struggle must continue. Col. Salvanos issues the following order to the still fighting units: "The resistance must keep on. All units are ordered to hold on to their positions till the night comes...in the night all units must withdraw the fortresses & move further to the South. We shall continue to fight the intruder" .
When Lt.Gen Panayotis Dedes, XO of the Division Group Command, heard of Col. Salvanos' decision, dashed at Kato-Vrontou, and ordered Col. Salvanos to obey instructions. Col. Salvanos, refused to comply. Lt. Gen Constantinos Bakopoulos, CO of the Division Group Command of the Second Army, ordered Salvanos personally, to comply with the capitulation. Col. Salvanos, threatened with dishonourable discharge & with execution for insubordination, finally obeys: He orders his units to move to the town of Serres. There, with discipline, the troops will parade in the streets of Serres for the last time. Then, the troops moved in the encampment of the 19th "Serres" Infantry Regiment and while singing the national anthem, they laid down their weapons
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Blue-print of a machine-gun nest and observation post:
1-observation chamber
2-observation panel
3-machine-gun chamber
4-soundproof door
5-bolt hole stairs
-6-niche with telephone

The last interview of the 97-year old General (ret.) Eustathios Theodoropoulos, CO of the Maliagha Fortress (as Captain), published in the magazine "Polemos kai Istoria (War & History), April 2001

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Q: General, what was the situation in the Maliagha Fortress when the Germans invaded?

Gen: Well, I had almost 600 men under my commands. A few days though before the major Italian offensive, in March of '41, almost 200-250 men were ordered to move to Albania. So, in the eves of the German invasion we were 350 officers, ncos & men inside Maliagha. Maliagha was built on the Nevrokopi plateau, at a distance of 2 km/1.2 miles from the Greek-Bulgarian borders

Q: Were you in touch with the rest of the fortresses of the Karadag compound?

Gen: Yes we were, through the radio & the wire. Maliagha had the obligation to support Perithori fortress with our fire, because Maliagha was at the peak of a bulge, above the Perithori & Partaluska fortresses. We had 42 "St. Etienne" 8mm heavy machine guns & two 81mm mortar tubes

Q: When did the Germans attack on Maliagha?

Gen: The Germans attacked on Maliagha in the morning of April 6, at 05:00. The attack was launched by elements of the 125th German Infantry Regiment

Q: What were the first reactions after the German assault? How did your men react?

Gen: When the Germans attacked us, I was CO of the fortress for 14 months already. So, I had the time to train my men, to have them ready to overcome this difficult situation. I have to tell you this: the Greek fighter when he defends the motherland, is second only to wild beasts. He thinks nothing else but this: how to thrash the enemy. That's the only way to overcome a better-equipped enemy
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Greek Major, CO of a fortress. He's armed with the Spanish made Ruby Martian 7.65 mm pistol

Q: Can you remember a few incidents from your struggle with the Germans?

Gen: When the Germans attacked us, their first artillery shell hit on the observation post. A shrapnel from this shell hit me on my forehead, above my eye. It was nothing, just a scratch. The doctor came, examined my wound & told me that I had to leave for the field hospital. I became furious: "Doctor, are you of Greek descendance? you are sending your CO to the field hospital while his men are fighting?". The Germans kept attacking us, with assaults around the clock, to finish with us quickly. Their first attack was launched by one battalion. This assault was of no avail. A second consecutive assault was also repelled. Then the Germans launched a night assault. They managed to pass through the barbwire & climbed on top of the fortress. I called immediately on the phone Major/Tagmatarchis Kourouklis of the artillery: "Kourouklis, I want extensive artillery fire against the Germans...the target is Maliagha". He agreed and asked for a 10-minute artillery barrage. I agreed. Then, for 10 minutes, all hell broke out. After the 10-minute barrage, I shot up a flare & with a limited force, we came out of the fortress with fixed bayonets to counter-attack the Germans...the sight shocked me: Germans, dozens of them, were lying dead on the fortress and around it..youngsters, 19-20 years old..we attacked on the remaining german troops, expelled them with the bayonet & we captured a few prisoners too
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In many occasions, the Greek garrisons of the fortresses, had to exit & counter-attack the Germans

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German troops, pinned down before a Greek fortress

Q: General, when did your resistance end?

Gen: Maliagha was never captured. We left the fortress in the night of the fifth day of the battle. We were ordered to do by the Karadag HQ. For five days and nights the Germans were trying to capture Maliagha

Q: How did the Germans behave when you meet them after you left the fortress?

Gen: When we left the fortress we encountered with no German troops. In the morning of the fourth day of the battle though, the Germans sent some messengers carrying a white banner. I ordered my men to hold fire & with a corporal who could speak the language, accompanied with 2-3 other men, came out to meet them. I asked them what they wanted & the Germans replied that they order me to cease fire & to leave the fortress, for the Greek Second Army capitulated at Salonika. I said that I wasn't aware of the latest developments & that, after all, I receive orders only by Greeks. That's why they must leave the fortress area because the battle will continue. Then, the corporal who spoke German, took the initiative and said to one of the messengers: "Listen pal, tell your officers that Maliagha will never surrender. The last standing soldier will keep fighting". when I asked him later to tell me what he said to the Germans, I congratulated him for his remark.
During the fourth day of the fighting, Colonel Salvanos called me on the phone: "Listen Theodoropoulos. Our Army capitulated. Take your brave men & leave the fortress. Go to Serres, I'll meet you there"
I answered back: "Sir, can you repeat because I couldn't get it?" When I heard his order I shouted at the top of my voice: "What's going on Sir...are you asking me to leave the battlefield? Are you ordering me to withdraw the field? The defeated withdraw the battlefield...Sir, in the language of the defenders of maliagha, the word defeat is absent! Only the words victory or death exist" and I ordered the phone operator, to avoid giving me the phone when Salvanos is at the end of the line. After repeated calls by Salvanos, the soldier came to me shivering with fear & said: "Captain, Colonel Salvanos has called many times, he says it's urgent". I took the phone & said: "Yes, sir, your orders sir". "What orders", Salvanos replied "I give orders & you refuse to comply"...one of Salvanos' staff officers was a friend of mine, Major Christeas. He, as he told me later, prompted Salvanos to keep trying calling me on the phone, because, as he said to Salvanos "He (meaning me) will burn Maliagha down" [a short pause, the General is touched with emotion]..because our mission was simple as that: "to defend Maliagha to the last man".
Salvanos continued: "listen Eustathios my son, please, take your brave men & come to Serres". "Sir, I have a big problem with my men too...they cherish this fortress more than their own homes, their own families". Salvanos then replied: "You are their god, they'll listen to you". I immediately gathered my troops & revealed them the interlocution I had with the Colonel. "We're going nowhere", "this is our home", they all started shouting. "Hold on guys" I said, "is there anyone among you who believes that I want to surrender?" "no" they all replied. "Then, let's all calm down. Each one of you has a father, a mother, a wife, children who are waiting for your return...just imagine, when all of your relatives find out that you got killed here, to no avail, what will they do? They'll start blaming me. They'll start blaming my soul 'cause I'll be dead too: This evil man who took our beloved with him...so, this is it...we've done our duty, now we must leave & fight the Germans elsewhere". So, we agreed to leave the fortress. In the night, we took our weapons, we climbed on the top of the fortress, sang the national anthem, we fired three shots as a fair well to our dead comrades & left

Q: Sir, what were the casualties from April 6 to April 9?

Gen: We had 25 men dead and about as twice as that wounded. We had three doctors, one surgeon & two pathologists. We had a full equipped preventorium. We had generators that provided the fortress with electricity for the lights & the ventilators that ventilated the fortress

Q: Did the Germans use poison or asphyxiating gas?

Gen: No, they used dynamite, hand grenades, flame throwers & offcourse their artillery
Let me tell you one more incident: On the second or the third day of the battle, the Germans captured a small hill, Syllas was its name, a few hundred yards away from Maliagha. A small fortress was on top with a small garrison, under 2nd.lt/Anthypolochagos Xenidis. This small fortress was under my commands. Xenidis informed me of the situation & I came to the conclusion that the German entrenchment occured threatening developments. So, I've decided that we should launch a night assault to clear the danger. Night operations bear great risk though, so I've decided that this assault will be carried out by volunteers. Xenidis had about 20 men. We needed 20 more. I gathered my troops & I asked for 20 men to volunteer for a risky night operation. All my gathered troops made one step forward [a short pause, the General is touched with emotion]. I picked 20 men. One of my 1st.lts. came & said to me: "I 'll go with hem sir". I suddenly realise that my picking was most distressing..."Sir, what are we, the rest of us are useless or cowards?" Seeing the distress & trying not to cause a general collapse in morale, I've decided to organise a draw. 20 men were drawn to launch the attack. These men fixed bayonets & in conjunction with the 20 men of the Syllas fortress, attacked the Germans. After a while, Xenidis called me on the phone and gave me a detailed report of the clash: We had 5-6 dead, the 1st.lt. included and about 20 wounded. The Germans had 80 dead. We captured five Germans (among them a Captain). The reason for this successfull operation is that we knew the surrounding area very well. My men, even blind-folded & in the night, could climb on Syllas undetected by the Germans
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A German tank in flames, after a direct hit from the Greek artillery
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Greek Sergeant Major. Note that he is armed with the M1928 Thompson sub-machine gun, a weapon perfect for close encounters
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General Theodoropoulos is presenting his medals (from left to right)

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The Order of the Phoenix is an Order of Greece, established on May 13, 1926 by the then Republican government. The Order was retained by the revived Monarchy, and continues to be awarded by the current Republic. The Order has five classes in civil and military divisions:
-Grand Cross
-Grand Commander
-Commander
-Gold Cross
-Silver Cross

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The Gold Medal for Valour, is the highest recognition for valour "in the face of the enemy" that can be awarded to members of the Greek armed forces of any rank in any service. It is also the highest award in the Greek Honours system, together with the Medal for Gallantry. The Gold Medal for valour is equivalent to the British "Victoria Cross" or the US "Medal of Honor"

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Order of King George I, instituted on 16 January 1915 by King Constantine I. Knight's Gold Cross, with swords

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Order of King George I, instituted on 16 January 1915 by King Constantine I. Knight's Silver Cross

http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/5858/greekwarcrossingold3ex.jpg
Greek War Cross in Gold

http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/3319/medalforoutstandingacts4wg.gif
Medal for Outstanding Acts

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/1732/1940commmedobv1fc7.jpghttp://img508.imageshack.us/img508/2298/1940commmedtl0.jpg
WWII Commemorative Medal (1940-41)

[valtrex]

The battle of the Metaxas line: The German persective
6 April,1941 (http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/1941/apr/6apr41.htm)
7 April,1941 (http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/1941/apr/7apr41.htm)
8 April,1941 (http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/1941/apr/8apr41.htm)
9 April,1941 (http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/1941/apr/9apr41.htm)
10 April, 19141 (http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/1941/apr/9apr41.htm)
11 April, 1941 (http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/1941/apr/11apr41.htm)
12 April, 1941 (http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/1941/apr/12apr41.htm)
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/7162/1stss0da.jpg
Men of the Leibstandarde SS-Adolf Hitler, observe a Stuka attack on the Greek fortresses

http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/364/jager4ai.jpg
Mountain jager of a Mountain Division cross the Greek-Bulgarian border

http://img423.imageshack.us/img423/3589/artillery2ew.jpg
German 150mm artillery battery (s.F.H.18), fires against the Greek fortifications

http://img423.imageshack.us/img423/7418/mortarnest4rm.jpg
A Greek mortar nest of a fortress

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9209/file0002hf4.jpg
Concrete anti-Tank obstacles before the Partaluska Fortress

http://img423.imageshack.us/img423/4990/commandpost8ys.jpg
The command post of a mountain unit

http://img280.imageshack.us/img280/4866/inspection3jr.jpg
German & Bulgarian troops inspect a captured fortress

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/9849/roupel7bu.jpg
Fortress Roupel after the battle

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/9513/file0001ur9.jpg
Greeks surrender to the Germans

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/5496/greeks1ul.jpg
Withdrawing Greek troops, are passing by a mechanized column of the Leibstandarde SS-Adolf Hitler. Field Marshal List issued this order on April 10: " Greeks defended their Fatherland gallantly until the end...German troops must treat Greeks with respect...Greek troops will not be held as prisoners"

The Heavy Weapons used by Greece in WWII

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/9528/schneiderfp0.jpg
The Schneider 75mm 1919/24 &..

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/792/schneider85nf7.jpg
...the Schneider 85mm/25

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/5043/skodael8.jpg
The Skoda 75mm/15

http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/3877/file0009vh4.jpg
The De Bange 120mm

German Heavy Weapons in the Greek Campaign

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/2339/file0003ne8.jpg
The 13.5 kg Hollow Charge (Hohlladung)
The filler was the high explosive RDX-TNT

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/2079/file0004te6.jpg
The Flammenwerfer 35 (FmW 35)

http://img423.imageshack.us/img423/3589/artillery2ew.jpg
The Schwere Feldhaubitze 18, 15cm (150mm)

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/7817/file0004agj8.jpg
The Sprengbuchse 1924 grenade bundle

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/2992/panzerbucshe39fp7.jpg
The Panzerbuchse PzB 38/39 Anti-Tank Rifle

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/7125/file0004hu6.jpg
The 20 cm (200mm) Leichter Ladungswerfer (leLDW). This weapon consisted of a bipod, baseplate, spigot, and spigot arm

[valtrex]

There's a debate still going on in Greece, between Greek & German historians, concerning the German casualties during the German campaign in the country. Hitler himself, announced officially on May 4, 1941 that "the German casualties in the Balkans (excluding Crete), are accounted for 5,236 men " (minous 558 killed in Yugoslavia, 4,678 Germans casualties in Greece). In 1945 , Greek CiC Marshal Alexandros Papagos in his memoirs accounts the German losses in the Greek mainland for 15,000 men, which is an exaggerated number. In 1959 , the US Army Center of Military History , in its work "The German Campaign in the Balkans", accounts the German losses for 1,100 men KIA, 4,000 wounded in the Greek mainland, while in Crete, the Germans lost between 3,986-6,453 men . This report though, is based on German sources. German historian H. Richter , writes in his book ("The Italian & German Campaigns in Greece", published in 1998):
The first 5 days of the battle (April 6-10) . Page 463: "...German casualties were heavy. XVIII Mountain Corps, under General der Gebirgstruppen (Lieutenant General) Franz Boehme, had 480 dead, 1,750 wounded and 70 MIA in the battle of Metaxas line" (Büchner gives different numbers: 555 dead, 2,134 wounded, 170 MIA). Page 451: "..Infanterie-Regiment Nr.125 suffered heavy losses. Its 2nd Battalion lost more than half of its force. On April 7, it had only 200 men fit to bear arms" (i.e therefore, it lost between 500-600 men).
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/4061/roupeljv7.jpg
A temporary German war cemetery before the Roupel Fortress

For the German losses in the brutal battle of Nevrokopi, Papagos writes: "The German 72nd Infantry Division, based on information given to us by German Officers, in the 4-day battle, lost about 1,800 men" (Büchner on the other hand, gives 700 men).
The contradiction is based on this historical fact: 72nd German Infantry Division, attacked on the Greek fortresses of the Metaxas line, by deploying its forces according to the classic German way. Two Regiments constituted the first line of attack, one was in reserve (6,500 first line troops). Papagos gives a ratio of casualties 1:3.6. Buchner a ratio 1:9. The German CO though, Generalleutnant Philipp Müller-Gebhard stated after the battle that "I've never experienced such an effective defence in my career" . Therefore he must not have had in mind a reasonable ratio of casualties.
According to modern Greek historians, and after the official German edition of the Chronicles of WWII (Bernard & Graeffe, Frankfurt, 1966), the Germans lost in Greece from April 6th-May 30th:
1-German casualties in the 4-day battle of the Metaxas line, 1,700 KIA, 3,800-4,000 wounded, 1,000 MIA
2-German casualties in the battles in the Greek mainland, 850 KIA, 1,800-2,000 wounded, 2,100 MIA
3-German casualties in Crete, 3,214 KIA (as many as the men burried in the German military cemetary at Maleme-Chania), 4,055 wounded, 731 MIA.
Thus, in Greece, the Germans lost about 19,548 men (1/9 of the total force of 170-180,000 men used for the German invasion)
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/481/roupeldi6.jpg
As a result of the short Greco-German conflict, no serious historian can claim that the Greeks inflicted severe casualties on the invading Germans. It was no picnic though.

NOTES:
1-In the early hours of the conflict, as a German unit came within a few yards of a well camouflaged Greek machine-gun nest, the Greeks opened heavy & accurate fire, inflicting severe casualties. The Greeks had to be surrendered after bloody fighting due to lack of ammunition. The German CO congratulated the Greek commander of the nest (Reservist Sergeant Dimitrios Intzos) and ordered for his execution before the eyes of the rest of the Greeks.
2-The Pilot of one of the German planes that were shot down over Greece, was captured by a Greek patrol & was led before a Greek officer for interrogation. He said to the officer incharge of the interrogation: "I cannot believe it! The Poles and the French did not shoot me down but the Greeks did it with their Mannlichers!"
3-In some cases, German troops managed to enter into some Greek fortresses. There, in the dark, inside the frowsty atmosphere of the underground corridors, small but hard-fought battles took place. In one such battle, inside the Perithori fortress, 120 Greeks captured & held as prisoners 300 Germans.
4-The German staff Officer of the XXX Army Corps sais to Lt.General Dedes, after the Greek capitulation: "You fought remarkably well. We learned as an Army the effectiveness of good artillery well served. Your well trained infantry was able to perform excellent flanking maneuvers. Your flank attacks were effective. 4/5 of your artillery shells though were duds and failed to explode"
5-A German officer of the Luftwaffe declared to the commander of the Eastern Macedonia division group, Lieutenant
General Dedes, that the Greek Army was the first army on which the Stuka fighter planes did not cause panic.
“Your soldiers”, he said. “Instead of fleeing frantically, as they did in France, were shooting at us from their positions”.
6-“Regardless of what future historians shall say, what we can say now, is that Greece gave Mussolini an unforgettable lesson, that she was the motive for the revolution in Yugoslavia, that she held the Germans in the mainland and in Crete for six weeks, that she upset the chronological order of all German High Command’s plans and thus brought a general
reversal of the entire course of the war and we won.”
(Sir Robert Antony Eden – Minister of War and the Exterior of Britain 1940-45, Prime Minister of Britain
1955-57 – speech from British parliament 24, Sept 1942).
7-“Greece is the symbol of the tortured, bloodied but live Europe. Never a defeat was so honourable for those who
suffered it”.
(Maurice Schumann – Minister of the exterior of France 1969-73. From a message of his he addressed from BBC of London to the enslaved peoples of Europe, 28 April 1941, the day Hitler occupied Athens after a 6 month war against Mussolini and 6 weeks against Hitler).
8-"We, and all the world, remember the heroic resistance of the Greeks. We rejoiced when a handful of Greeks, defectively equipped, administered defeat after defeat to the Fascists and chased them back. But Hitler could not afford to have the sawdust Caesar annihilated... Vast armies mechanised Nazis swooped down on Greece, from the east and from the north. The overwhelming Nazi forces pushed the gallant Greeks back inch by inch, until that fateful day when the symbol of tyranny, the swastika, flew over proud Parthenon. We all know much too well, that the lot of those brave people has since been subjected to starvation, agony and death..."
(Sam Rayburn, US Senator 1942)

[achilles]

Great info as usual valtrex, thanks!

Here is a brief account in numbers of the Greek role in WWII:

During WWII, Greece was the only country who confronted with the combined forces of 4 countries simultaneously: Albania, Italy, Germany, Bulgaria

Days of resistance:

Greece: 219
Norway: 61
France: 43 (the superpower at the time)
Poland: 30
Denmark: 0 (the Danes surrendered to a Hitler's motorcyclist who was conveying HIlter's request to the Danish King for the crossing of the Nazi armies. The Danish King accepted the request and handed over to the motorcyclist his crown to be delivered to Hitler along with Denmark's surrender)

Total Greek losses per enemy-country (approx):
Albania: 1165
Italy: 8000
Bulgaria: 25,000
Germany: 50,000

Total losses as percentage of population:
Greece: 10%
Russia: 2.8%
Holland: 2.2%
France: 2%
Poland 1.8%
Yugoslavia: 1.7%
Belgium: 1.5%

[achilles]

Important quotes on / about the Greeks:

---"For the sake of historical truth i must verify that only the Greeks, of all the adversaries who confronted us, fought with bold courage and highest disregard of death" - Adolph Hitler (From a speech he delivered to Reichstag on 4 May, 1941

---"The word heroism i am afraid does not render the least of those acts of self-sacrifice of the Greeks, which were the defining factor in the victorious outcome of the common struggle of the nations, during WWII, for the human freedom and dignity. If it were not for the bravery of the Greeks and their courage, the outcome of WWII would be undetermined" - Winston Churchill (Paraphrased from one of his speeches delivered to the British Parliamet)

---"Until now we used to say that the Greeks fight like heroes. Now we shall say: the Heroes Fight Like Greeks" - Winston Churchill (from a speech he delivered to the BBC in the first days of the Greco-Italian war)

---"I am sorry because i am getting old and i shall not live long to thank the Greek People, whose resistance decided WWII" - Joseph Stalin (from a speech at Moscow Radio, after the victory of Stalingrad and capitulation of the German 6th Army Field Marshall, Von Paulus)

---"If the Russian People managed to raise resistance at the doors of Moscow to halt and reserve the German torrent, they owe it to the Greek People, who delayed the German Divisions during the time they could bring us to our knees" - Georgy Constantinovich Shoukov (Field Marshall of the Soviet Army: quote from his memoirs of WWII)

[valtrex]

Great info as usual valtrex, thanks!
Thanks, achilles, it's my pleasure to present some historical aspects of our military history, unfortunately forgotten now by some of us, but, preserved and now remembered with the help of written accounts.


Total losses as percentage of population:
Greece: 10%
Russia: 2.8%
Holland: 2.2%
France: 2%
Poland 1.8%
Yugoslavia: 1.7%
Belgium: 1.5%

Hmm, I don't know, I find 10% an exaggerated figure. Let's see:

-Greco-Italian War (October 28, 1940-April 28, 1941):
13,325 KIA,
62,663 WIA,
1,290 MIA
-Greco-German War (April 6, 1941-April 28, 1941)
Roughly 7,000 men (KIA, WIA)
-Axis Occupation:
220,000-300,000 civilian deaths due to famine
72,000 Jewish Holocaust Deaths
30,000 executions
----------------------------------------
Total deaths: From 372,325-422,325
Greek population in 1940: 7,200,000
Therefore, we lost from 5.18-5.86% of our total population


Important quotes on / about the Greeks:
---"For the sake of historical truth i must verify that only the Greeks, of all the adversaries who confronted us, fought with bold courage and highest disregard of death" - Adolph Hitler (From a speech he delivered to Reichstag on 4 May, 1941
....
---"If the Russian People managed to raise resistance at the doors of Moscow to halt and reserve the German torrent, they owe it to the Greek People, who delayed the German Divisions during the time they could bring us to our knees" - Georgy Constantinovich Shoukov (Field Marshall of the Soviet Army: quote from his memoirs of WWII)

Lest we Forget...
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/2148/germanskt4.jpg

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/6254/apoxairetismosvu4.jpg

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5968/life19401216zl6.jpg

This I find quite amusing:
"Week after week, as truck loads of Greek soldiers rattled to the front with flowers behind their ears, singing mighty songs, Europe cheered. In Switzerland, the gendarmes are busy posting signs along their border with Italy, on which they write: Greeks. Stop here; this is Swiss territory".
(C.L. Sulzberger, American War Correspondent 1940)

[Pleonasm]

Great info as usual valtrex, thanks!

Here is a brief account in numbers of the Greek role in WWII:

During WWII, Greece was the only country who confronted with the combined forces of 4 countries simultaneously: Albania, Italy, Germany, Bulgaria
Ah, yes, I suppose the Soviet Union or Yugoslavia weren't attacked by a whole bunch of Axis stats.



Days of resistance:

Greece: 219
Norway: 61
France: 43 (the superpower at the time)
Poland: 30
Denmark: 0 (the Danes surrendered to a Hitler's motorcyclist who was conveying HIlter's request to the Danish King for the crossing of the Nazi armies. The Danish King accepted the request and handed over to the motorcyclist his crown to be delivered to Hitler along with Denmark's surrender)
Look, the Greek defence was outstanding and heroic even without a collection of quite manipulative numbers.

The story about the Danish King sounds very interesting, I've never heard of it before. Do you have a source for it?


Total losses as percentage of population:
Greece: 10%
Russia: 2.8%
Holland: 2.2%
France: 2%
Poland 1.8%
Yugoslavia: 1.7%
Belgium: 1.5%

Now, this has to be a joke.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

I hope with that last stat he got % of population and % of attacking force mixed up.

[Amateur]

Megaraptor;2596194']I hope with that last stat he got % of population and % of attacking force mixed up.

Obviously those stats refer to the total losses (military and civilian) as a percentage of each country's population. I personally wouldn't rank Greece on the top of the list, which undoubtedly belongs to Soviet Union. However, with its 250,000 dead (according to Keegan - others say 400,000) during the war, Greece is in the league with, let's say, UK or the US in absolute numbers and second only to the Soviet Union in proportionate numbers. Here's a compilation of stats and estimates on the issue: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm)

[Pleonasm]

Obviously those stats refer to the total losses (military and civilian) as a percentage of each country's population. I personally wouldn't rank Greece on the top of the list, which undoubtedly belongs to Soviet Union. However, with its 250,000 dead (according to Keegan - others say 400,000) during the war, Greece is in the league with, let's say, UK or the US in absolute numbers and second only to the Soviet Union in proportionate numbers. Here's a compilation of stats and estimates on the issue: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm)
If you leave out Poland, the Baltic countries, Germany, some countries in Southeast Asia and Yugoslavia.

Come on guys, I already said that Greek defense was brave, no question about it, but why don't we struck to the truth?

[achilles]

If you leave out Poland, the Baltic countries, Germany, some countries in Southeast Asia and Yugoslavia.

Come on guys, I already said that Greek defense was brave, no question about it, but why don't we struck to the truth?

Regarding your questions posted above, it is true that Greece had to confront with 4 countries simultaneously. I cannot see your problem with this fact. The same is true about our 219 days of resistance. If you think otherwise, please post the true numbers according to you, along with any related references.

Numbers are always disputable in this case, especially body counts. A 10% fraction of the total population seems to be overstretched and i believe valtrex gave a more representative and realistic account. Again, you are more than welcomed to post those numbers you consider to be true.

As for the story of the Dannish surrender, this is an historical anecdote. It still does not change the fact that Denmark surrendered at minimum within 4 hours and at maximum within 24 hours with no resistance at all, upon Hitler's ultimatum. In retrospect, that was a good thing for Denmark.

Since in your last post you mention the word "truth", i would kindly ask you to hit us with it. :)

[Luno]

Great post but does anyone have any photos from Unternehmen Merkur (Operation MERCURY)

[Pleonasm]

Regarding your questions posted above, it is true that Greece had to confront with 4 countries simultaneously. I cannot see your problem with this fact. The same is true about our 219 days of resistance. If you think otherwise, please post the true numbers according to you, along with any related references.

Yes, Greece had to confront 4 country, but Greece wasn't the only one country which had to do this as you claimed.

And the comparison is manipulative because you count the days resistance was given in two ways. Let me use the example of France. You stated that France fought about 40 days. So you regard the massive German invasion as equal to the time span between the Italian declaration of war and the fall of Crete, that's by no way comparable!

Numbers are always disputable in this case, especially body counts. A 10% fraction of the total population seems to be overstretched and i believe valtrex gave a more representative and realistic account. Again, you are more than welcomed to post those numbers you consider to be true.Right from my memories (I'm not at home):
- Poland: a bit lower than 20%
- Soviet Union: a bit lower than 15%
- Yugoslavia: ~ 7%
- Greece: 4-6%

Sorry, for the very rough estimates.


As for the story of the Dannish surrender, this is an historical anecdote. It still does not change the fact that Denmark surrendered at minimum within 4 hours and at maximum within 24 hours with no resistance at all, upon Hitler's ultimatum. In retrospect, that was a good thing for Denmark.

Since in your last post you mention the word "truth", i would kindly ask you to hit us with it. :)
Danish soldiers died, that implies a form of resistance but I agree it wasn't very fierce and long.

Hm, yes, truth. There's never really one, but we can at least try to reach the most objective version.

[Kitsune]

Regarding your questions posted above, it is true that Greece had to confront with 4 countries simultaneously. I cannot see your problem with this fact. The same is true about our 219 days of resistance.
Come on, achilles. You really have to admit that Pompejus is right when he says that the numbers are presented in a somewhat manipulative way.
For example, of those 219 days of resistance, 198 days where spent fighting the Italian armed forces - without question quite sucessfully. But when the Germans intervened Greece (without Crete) was conquered in three weeks and one day. Which means that from the German perspective the Greek mainland campaign was shorter than the one in Poland or France.
As far as the military efficiency is concerned: according to the numbers above, just before the German attack, Greece had an army of 420.000 men and was supported by an British expeditionary force of 62.500 soldiers. The German force was only around 180.000 strong. Alright, this ignores the involvement of Italiand and Bulgarian troops but I think it is quite accepted that the absolute lion's share of the fighting during those last three weeks was done by the Wehrmacht. As far as casualties are concerned, taking again the numbers above and disregarding those for the conquest of Crete (where most of the defense was done by Commonwealth troops), the Germans lost 11650 soldiers compared to around 50.000 Greek casualties (that even ignores the English losses in the mainland campaign). And this in a country with pretty difficult geography which provides a defender with lots of good ground. So by all means, and with all proper respect for the valor of the Greek soldier - which has been ample commended by the German troops back then - there is still no reason to present yourself as superior to anyone else.

[achilles]

Guys, the number 219 reflects the total time length of the Greek resistance to the AXIS, not Germany itself. I never claimed anything else.

If we isolate Germany then, yes, the resistance lasted from April 6 1941 to April 27 1941, so Kitsune you are right on that one. Your number of 420,000, though is simply out of proportion and has very little to do with reality. 70,000 Greek troops were guarding the Metaxas line at our North Eastern borders, when the Nazis invaded. The combined Greek-British troops (your number of the UK troops is also overstretched) were vastly outnumbered and outgunned by the Germans and we eventually lost. I will come up with the real troop numbers later on. Perhaps Valtrex can help us with that one.

As for me claiming superiority.... i did not claim superiority of the Greek resistance. Hitler did:

"For the sake of historical truth i must verify that only the Greeks, of all the adversaries who confronted us, fought with bold courage and highest disregard of death" - Adolph Hitler (From a speech he delivered to Reichstag on 4 May, 1941

[Kitsune]

Do not blame me. Those numbers are given in valtrex's first post, right at the beginning. The 420.000 number for the Greek army is mentioned in the text just under the picture of Marshal Alexandros Papagos.

[achilles]

Do not blame me. Those numbers are given in valtrex's first post, right at the beginning. The 420.000 number for the Greek army is mentioned in the text just under the picture of by Marshal Alexandros Papagos.

You are confusing the following two things:

1. How many effective Greek troops were available in total at the time, with...

2. How many Greek troops were actually deployed against the German invasion.

Plus, dont forget Germany's superior hardware, firepower and take into account a very important factor....Luftwafe. We actually had no air force back then.

[valtrex]

Guys, guys, no need for rants or disputes, let's review the facts please:
@Kitsune:
1-British troops, did not engage the Germans before the Greek capitulation of the 2nd Army. The Brits (and the commonwealth forces), engaged the Germans during their advance to Athens (battle of Olympus, battle of Servia, battle of Thermopylae etc) that were mostly rear-guard action or efforts to delay the inevitable defeat.
2-The Battle of Crete was quite different for a couple of very serious reasons: a) Greek Army had ceased to exist as an organized opposing force in May. On 20 April, 1941, Gen. Tsolakoglou, CO of the 1st Army that was fighting in Albania, offered his surrender to the advancing Germans. Greek troops laid down their arms & commenced the long journey to return home (as my late grand-father told me, even in mid-April, Greeks were fighting the Italians. He was stationed with his unit at an area called three eggs which by the way, was the most advanced point Greek Army had reached inside Albania. He returned home-at Thessaly, central Greece-on foot!). b) Cretan defence was undertaken by the commonwealth forces, with the help of the local gendarmerie, the local populace & the cadets of the Hellenic Army's Academy, who mutinied, stole the colours of the academy & were transported to Crete on fishing boats.
3-There's no way Greeks lost 50,000 during the entire German campaign (April 6-June 1). According to the official archives of the Greek Army's History department, Greek casualties in WWII (October 28, 1940-June 1, 1941) are accounted for 15,700 men KIA (military personnel).
@Pompejus:
I thought I made it clear; no-one questions the tragic Yogoslavian or Polish or Soviet or German losses in WWII. The total percentage of the Greek population dead in WWII is ~5-5.8%

[Pleonasm]

[..]
@Pompejus:
I thought I made it clear; no-one questions the tragic Yogoslavian or Polish or Soviet or German losses in WWII. The total percentage of the Greek population dead in WWII is ~5-5.8%

I was only referring to achilles' numbers, which are arguably strange.

[Kitsune]

@valtrex:


I took the 50.000 number from one of achilles posts which went like this:

Total Greek losses per enemy-country (approx):
Albania: 1165
Italy: 8000
Bulgaria: 25,000
Germany: 50,000


Alright, 15700 KIA for the Greek military then. But please note that the terms "losses" and "casualties" must not be confused with "dead" and "KIA" as is often done. So this 50.000 number could be correct.

[valtrex]

@valtrex:


I took the 50.000 number from one of achilles posts which went like this:

Total Greek losses per enemy-country (approx):
Albania: 1165
Italy: 8000
Bulgaria: 25,000
Germany: 50,000


Alright, 15700 KIA for the Greek military then. But please note that the terms "losses" and "casualties" must not be confused with "dead" and "KIA" as is often done. So this 50.000 number could be correct.

Kitsune, the Greek casualties in the battle for the Metaxas Line (the battle of the bunkers as we call it down here) are acounted for roughly 7,000 men (KIA, WIA, MIA). The number I posted earlier (15,700) refers to "losses" (KIA-Killed in Action). The total number of Greek military casualties (Killed in Action, Wounded in Action, Missing in Action-Presumably Dead) in WWII is 80,000-85,000. If I remember correctly, 77,300 in the first 6 months (against Italy), 7,000 during the Marita, 850-900 in Crete & approximately 1,000-1,500 in N.Africa (El Alamein) & the Allied invasion of Italy.

[valtrex]

Please add to the previous number, the 2,700 casualties of our Navy.

[achilles]

Thing is, if we trace 10 different sources on bodycounts we will end up with 10 differenet numbers. All we can do is merely approximate.

[Kitsune]

Thing is, if we trace 10 different sources on bodycounts we will end up with 10 differenet numbers.
Sometimes even more than that. ;-)

[hasanito]

During WWII, Greece was the only country who confronted with the combined forces of 4 countries simultaneously: Albania, Italy, Germany, Bulgaria




I don't think that would be a fair or correct statement!

Soviets faced all those nations and few other ones (like Hungary, Finland etc..) serving under Germany forces.

If I am not mistaken, Serbians also faced combined forces of number of balkan nations as well!

[achilles]

I don't think that would be a fair or correct statement!

Soviets faced all those nations and few other ones (like Hungary, Finland etc..) serving under Germany forces.

If I am not mistaken, Serbians also faced combined forces of number of balkan nations as well!

Well, which ones?

[hasanito]

Well, which ones?

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Yugoslavia
hungary, romania, bulgaria, germany and lets not forget Croations although I'm not sure about their war efforts with Axis nations during the invasion of yugoslavia!

- - - - - - - -
Background

Fascist Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Italy_%281861-1946%29) had attacked Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Greece) in October 1940 and had been forced back into Albania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania_under_Italy). Adolf Hitler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler) recognised the need to go to his ally's aid, not only to restore diminished Axis prestige, but also to prevent Great Britain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) from being able to bomb the Romanian oilfields from which Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany) obtained most of her oil.
Following agreements with Hungary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary), Romania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Romania) and Bulgaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Independent_Bulgaria) that they would join the Axis, Hitler put pressure on Yugoslavia to join the Tripartite Pact (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripartite_Pact).


(....)

On April 6, 1941, Axis armies invaded from all sides and the Luftwaffe bombed Belgrade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgrade). The Axis victory was swift, as Yugoslavia surrendered in only 11 days on April 17, 1941. The insistence of the Yugoslav Army on trying to defend all the borders did not help matters. Yugoslavia was subsequently divided amongst Germany, Hungary, Italy and Bulgaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria), with most of Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia) being occupied by Germany. The Croatian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croats) fascist leader Ante Pavelić (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ante_Paveli%C4%87) took the opportunity to declare an Independent State of Croatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_State_of_Croatia).
....

[Pleonasm]

Thing is, if we trace 10 different sources on bodycounts we will end up with 10 differenet numbers. All we can do is merely approximate.Ok, please enlighten us and back up your statement concerning the percentage of dead population in Yugoslavia, Poland and the Soviet Union. You made a claim so prove it.


Well, which ones?
The Kingdom of Yugoslavia faced the forces of the Reich, Italy, Bulgaria and Hungary. I'm not sure about Romania and Albania (Italian puppet, but evidently good enough to count as a Greek enemy) . Both countries were used as assembly areas from which Axis forces attacked Yugoslavia.

And the Soviet Union had not only to deal with the forces of virtually all Axis countries and to keep constantly an eye on Japan during the war with Germany, the USSR also had to fight numerous Waffen-SS divisions from all over Europe.

[Amateur]

Let's put something straight for the record.


As far as the military efficiency is concerned: according to the numbers above, just before the German attack, Greece had an army of 420.000 men and was supported by an British expeditionary force of 62.500 soldiers. The German force was only around 180.000 strong. Alright, this ignores the involvement of Italiand and Bulgarian troops but I think it is quite accepted that the absolute lion's share of the fighting during those last three weeks was done by the Wehrmacht. As far as casualties are concerned, taking again the numbers above and disregarding those for the conquest of Crete (where most of the defense was done by Commonwealth troops), the Germans lost 11650 soldiers compared to around 50.000 Greek casualties (that even ignores the English losses in the mainland campaign). And this in a country with pretty difficult geography which provides a defender with lots of good ground. So by all means, and with all proper respect for the valor of the Greek soldier - which has been ample commended by the German troops back then - there is still no reason to present yourself as superior to anyone else.

Your number of 420,000, though is simply out of proportion and has very little to do with reality. 70,000 Greek troops were guarding the Metaxas line at our North Eastern borders, when the Nazis invaded. The combined Greek-British troops (your number of the UK troops is also overstretched) were vastly outnumbered and outgunned by the Germans and we eventually lost. I will come up with the real troop numbers later on. Perhaps Valtrex can help us with that one.

Here 's some help from me. The number 420.000 refers to the total of the Greek Army's strength at the time, but its bulk was in Albania facing the Italians. So the 180.000 - strong German offensive north of Thessaloniki (which by the way is not entirely favourable to the defendant) was faced by the British expeditionary force of 62.500 and the Greek forces in central and eastern Macedonia, which were probably around 100.000 men strong. So in fact the Greeks and the British were outnumbered, not to mention Germany's vast superiority in tanks and airplanes. And here's the source:
"The Metaxas Line was held by three infantry divisions, the 7th and 14th east of the Strimon, the 18th west of that river. The 19th Motorized Infantry Division was in reserve south of Lake Doiran. Including the fortress garrisons in the Metaxas Line and some border guard companies, the total strength of the Greek forces defending the Bulgarian border was roughly 70,000 men. They were under the command of the Greek Second Army with headquarters in the vicinity of Salonika.
The Greek forces in central Macedonia consisted of the 12th Infantry Division, which held the southern part of the Vermion position, and the 20th Infantry Division in the northern sector up to the Yugoslav border. On 28 March both divisions were brought under the command of General Wilson. The bulk of the Greek forces—First Army with its fourteen divisions was committed in Albania"
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/balkan/20_260_3.htm


Ok, please enlighten us and back up your statement concerning the percentage of dead population in Yugoslavia, Poland and the Soviet Union. You made a claim so prove it.

As for the percentage of dead per capita, I wouldn't like to elaborate more because I think one shouldn't turn such issues like the number of dead into pissing contests. I provided a source earlier, and here it is again: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm)
There's lots of numbers there, and you also have to compare them with total populations at the time to find out. I think it is substantiated that Greece is second only to the Soviet Union in the percentage of dead, however I acknowledge that other countries, especially Poland or Yugoslavia, also had tremendous losses; so if that places them higher on the "list", that's fine. I won't make the calculations. I respect them anyway.

[valtrex]

...and Albania (Italian puppet, but evidently good enough to count as a Greek enemy)...

At the beginning of the Italian invasion, 6 Albanian Regular Army Battalions (Battaglioni Regolari) invaded Greece, attached to various Italian divisions:
-Infantry battalion "Tomori" (15 officers and 636 soldiers) attached to infantry division "Parma"
-Infantry battalion "Kaptina" (20 officers and 708 soldiers) attached to Alpini division "Julia"
-Infantry battalion "Korata" (28 officers and 732 soldiers) attached to Alpini division "Julia"
-Infantry battalion "Tarabosh" (20 officers and 513 soldiers) attached to High Command Albania
-Infantry battalion "Grammos" (22 officers and 706 soldiers) attached to infantry division "Ferrara"
-Infantry battalion "Daijti" (20 officers and 669 soldiers) attached to infantry division "Ferrara"
-Arty battery "Drin", attached to infantry division "Ferrara"
-The Albanian Blakshirt Legion (of two blackshirt battalion comprised of three companies each), attached to the Ferrara infantry division.
During the first Italian offensive (October 28-November 13) the Albanian battalions saw very little action. Inf.Btn. "Tomori" engaged the Greeks for the first time on November 3. It was literally thrashed and many soldiers deserted. On November 14 (the day the Greek major counter-offensive began), two btns ("Grammos" Btn stationed at Mavrovouni & "Daijti" Btn) took the full blow of the Greek offensive, which brought them to disorder (200 Albanians defected). Italian High Command questioned the reliability of the Albanian troops & ordered them to deploy at Shjak, thus forming the Gruppo Battaglioni Albanesi "Skandenberg" ("Skandenberg" Albanian Battalion Group). They never saw any more action. One might ask (I do not have any further details) if this Skandenberg Group was the progenitor of the SS-Skandenberg Division.

[mp5sd]

So, please just tell me why Greek is in a state of war with Albania, and not with Italy, Bulgaria, Germany and Macedonia???? Albania was not a puppet of Italy, Albania was invaded by fascist Italy, and is a reall shame that all nations excluding USA, accepted the invasion of Albania by Italy.

Albanian troops taken by Italians did not fight against Greece. The all escaped, it was not their war?

Again, why Greece keeps the Law of War with Albania and not with Italy????

[Amateur]

So, please just tell me why Greek is in a state of war with Albania, and not with Italy, Bulgaria, Germany and Macedonia???? Albania was not a puppet of Italy, Albania was invaded by fascist Italy, and is a reall shame that all nations excluding USA, accepted the invasion of Albania by Italy.
Albanian troops taken by Italians did not fight against Greece. The all escaped, it was not their war?
Again, why Greece keeps the Law of War with Albania and not with Italy????
I suspect you are flaming, but I 'll give you the credit of misinformation for the first time. There is no "state of war" between Greece and Albania. Greece unilaterally lifted the "state of war" situation on 28.8.1987, and there was also a peace traety signed between the two countries on 21.3.1996.
http://old.mfa.gr/english/foreign_policy/europe_southeastern/balkans/albania.html
Now, if you made an honest mistake, let's leave it here and get back on topic. Otherwise, I will report you for flaming.

[mp5sd]

I suspect you are flaming, but I 'll give you the credit of misinformation for the first time. There is no "state of war" between Greece and Albania. Greece unilaterally lifted the "state of war" situation on 28.8.1987, and there was also a peace traety signed between the two countries on 21.3.1996.
http://old.mfa.gr/english/foreign_policy/europe_southeastern/balkans/albania.html
Now, if you made an honest mistake, let's leave it here and get back on topic. Otherwise, I will report you for flaming.

so the state of war is lifted? sorry I did not know it. but why in 1987, when state of war was from 1940? and why greece declared war to Albania, Albania was invaded by Italy? Why Greece did not keep state of war with Bulgaria that had a much more active role? or with Italy? no flaming, only trying to understand

[Amateur]

so the state of war is lifted? sorry I did not know it. but why in 1987, when state of war was from 1940? and why greece declared war to Albania, Albania was invaded by Italy? Why Greece did not keep state of war with Bulgaria that had a much more active role? or with Italy? no flaming, only trying to understand
After WW II, Greece and Italy very soon became NATO allies, and there was also a normalization of relations with Warsaw Pact countries, including Bulgaria. Since Albania was an isolationist country, I guess normalization took longer. But let's stay on topic please.

[mp5sd]

After WW II, Greece and Italy very soon became NATO allies, and there was also a normalization of relations with Warsaw Pact countries, including Bulgaria. Since Albania was an isolationist country, I guess normalization took longer. But let's stay on topic please.

you are a reall Amateur!!! Albania was part of Warsaw Treaty till at 1968 when Albania come out as a protest for invasion of Czechoslovachia...

[Amateur]

you are a reall Amateur!!! Albania was part of Warsaw Treaty till at 1968 when Albania come out as a protest for invasion of Czechoslovachia...
And I guess you 're a professional... in propaganda of course. Actually, Albania stayed in the Warsaw Pact only from 1955 to 1961, when it "froze" its participation. The reason was that the Soviet Union had clashed with China, and Albania took China's side, which resulted in the isolationist policy that Albania followed for the next 30 years (and which is probably the reason why Greek - Albanian relations took so long to get normalized). It's true it only left the Warsaw Pact formally in 1968, with the pretext of the invasion of Czechoslovakia, but in reality it had taken the isolationist course in 1961. And anyway, I see no reason to debate Albania's political stance in the '60s.
This is a topic about Operation Marita, the German Invasion of Greece, and I 'll say it for the last time: stop diverting us off topic, or I will report you to the mods.

[mp5sd]

And I guess you 're a professional... in propaganda of course. Actually, Albania stayed in the Warsaw Pact only from 1955 to 1961, when it "froze" its participation. The reason was that the Soviet Union had clashed with China, and Albania took China's side, which resulted in the isolationist policy that Albania followed for the next 30 years (and which is probably the reason why Greek - Albanian relations took so long to get normalized). It's true it only left the Warsaw Pact formally in 1968, with the pretext of the invasion of Czechoslovakia, but in reality it had taken the isolationist course in 1961. And anyway, I see no reason to debate Albania's political stance in the '60s.
This is a topic about Operation Marita, the German Invasion of Greece, and I 'll say it for the last time: stop diverting us off topic, or I will report you to the mods.

one moment please, you are trying to close my mouth threatening me with the mods.

So, why Grece kept the state of war with Albania, and not with who really invaded!!!!
Maybe because Greece want till today to invade half of actual Albania????

[valtrex]

Sounds like a poorly constructed attempt to derail my thread...
Thank you...
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/5113/dobrarobotadl1.gif

[quinsen]

Thanks for the work, collecting all this together.

[Kitsune]

@amateur:

Thanks for your information. :grin:

[Amateur]

@amateur:
Thanks for your information. :grin:

And thank you for being open - minded. :hug:

Since you seem to be German, let me also add that I didn't see in this thread any comparisons in combat valor between Greek and German soldiers, as you seem to have inferred, judging from your answer on casualties inflicted on one another. I think there is no doubt, generally or in this thread, that the German soldier was, throughout WW II, the best trained, equipped and disciplined in the world. The issue was, which opponent confronted the German army with the best fighting skill and spirit, in view of the circumstances. And I think it has been documented by German sources, that this was the Greek one.

[achilles]

Let's put something straight for the record.


Here 's some help from me. The number 420.000 refers to the total of the Greek Army's strength at the time, but its bulk was in Albania facing the Italians. So the 180.000 - strong German offensive north of Thessaloniki (which by the way is not entirely favourable to the defendant) was faced by the British expeditionary force of 62.500 and the Greek forces in central and eastern Macedonia, which were probably around 100.000 men strong. So in fact the Greeks and the British were outnumbered, not to mention Germany's vast superiority in tanks and airplanes. And here's the source:
"The Metaxas Line was held by three infantry divisions, the 7th and 14th east of the Strimon, the 18th west of that river. The 19th Motorized Infantry Division was in reserve south of Lake Doiran. Including the fortress garrisons in the Metaxas Line and some border guard companies, the total strength of the Greek forces defending the Bulgarian border was roughly 70,000 men. They were under the command of the Greek Second Army with headquarters in the vicinity of Salonika.
The Greek forces in central Macedonia consisted of the 12th Infantry Division, which held the southern part of the Vermion position, and the 20th Infantry Division in the northern sector up to the Yugoslav border. On 28 March both divisions were brought under the command of General Wilson. The bulk of the Greek forces—First Army with its fourteen divisions was committed in Albania"
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/balkan/20_260_3.htm


As for the percentage of dead per capita, I wouldn't like to elaborate more because I think one shouldn't turn such issues like the number of dead into pissing contests. I provided a source earlier, and here it is again: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm)
There's lots of numbers there, and you also have to compare them with total populations at the time to find out. I think it is substantiated that Greece is second only to the Soviet Union in the percentage of dead, however I acknowledge that other countries, especially Poland or Yugoslavia, also had tremendous losses; so if that places them higher on the "list", that's fine. I won't make the calculations. I respect them anyway.

Very well said

[hasanito]

(...) The issue was, which opponent confronted the German army with the best fighting skill and spirit, in view of the circumstances. And I think it has been documented by German sources, that this was the Greek one.

I have no doubt of the heroism of the Greek soldiers defending their homeland nor their sacrifices agains Fashist invaders... I just can't see the point this rhetoric keep getting put over and over again Greeks being the best ones!!!!!!
...nor am I going to keep arguing over it.

However I find it offensive to the millions of Russians, Serb and Poles as well as many other nations who fought Nazis at every inch of their homeland, with every drop of their blood.

If anyone who deserves the credit as
opponent confronted the German army with the best fighting skill and spirit, in view of the circumstances that'd be the Russians, not underestimating British at the battle of Britain!

[Pleonasm]

[...]As for the percentage of dead per capita, I wouldn't like to elaborate more because I think one shouldn't turn such issues like the number of dead into pissing contests. I provided a source earlier, and here it is again: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm)
There's lots of numbers there, and you also have to compare them with total populations at the time to find out. I think it is substantiated that Greece is second only to the Soviet Union in the percentage of dead, however I acknowledge that other countries, especially Poland or Yugoslavia, also had tremendous losses; so if that places them higher on the "list", that's fine. I won't make the calculations. I respect them anyway.Look, I certainly did no have any intentions to make such a list and to judge countries and their war effort according to it.

Ok, what I'm supposed to see on the homepage you linked, eh? I see various numbers. Poland 6M, Yugoslavia 1.55M, Soviet Union 20M, Greece 64'000 to 515'000.

What was Greece's pre war population? About 7-7.5 Million? Let's take 7 and assume that Greek losses were really 515'000. That's about 7.35%, right?

Yugoslavia had a population of about 15 Million. That's a percentage of 10%.

Soviet Union. With the territories gained in 1939 and 1940 the Soviet Union had a population of a bit less than 200 Million. That's also 10%.

And Poland? Population = roughly 30 Million, Losses = 6 Million. That's 20%.

Think what you want, respect who you want. But please do not let national pride or whatever to interfere with history. If this happens, you end up with strange claims concerning losses or ridiculous statements like the one beneath.

[...] The issue was, which opponent confronted the German army with the best fighting skill and spirit, in view of the circumstances. And I think it has been documented by German sources, that this was the Greek one.


Very well said
Still waiting for sources, mate.


At the beginning of the Italian invasion, 6 Albanian Regular Army Battalions (Battaglioni Regolari) invaded Greece, attached to various Italian divisions:
-Infantry battalion "Tomori" (15 officers and 636 soldiers) attached to infantry division "Parma"
-Infantry battalion "Kaptina" (20 officers and 708 soldiers) attached to Alpini division "Julia"
-Infantry battalion "Korata" (28 officers and 732 soldiers) attached to Alpini division "Julia"
-Infantry battalion "Tarabosh" (20 officers and 513 soldiers) attached to High Command Albania
-Infantry battalion "Grammos" (22 officers and 706 soldiers) attached to infantry division "Ferrara"
-Infantry battalion "Daijti" (20 officers and 669 soldiers) attached to infantry division "Ferrara"
-Arty battery "Drin", attached to infantry division "Ferrara"
-The Albanian Blakshirt Legion (of two blackshirt battalion comprised of three companies each), attached to the Ferrara infantry division.
During the first Italian offensive (October 28-November 13) the Albanian battalions saw very little action. Inf.Btn. "Tomori" engaged the Greeks for the first time on November 3. It was literally thrashed and many soldiers deserted. On November 14 (the day the Greek major counter-offensive began), two btns ("Grammos" Btn stationed at Mavrovouni & "Daijti" Btn) took the full blow of the Greek offensive, which brought them to disorder (200 Albanians defected). Italian High Command questioned the reliability of the Albanian troops & ordered them to deploy at Shjak, thus forming the Gruppo Battaglioni Albanesi "Skandenberg" ("Skandenberg" Albanian Battalion Group). They never saw any more action. One might ask (I do not have any further details) if this Skandenberg Group was the progenitor of the SS-Skandenberg Division.
Oh, thank you for this detail. Didn't really have a idea about Albanian regular army's contribution to war. Only a little and well-intentioned correction: It's spelled Skanderbeg.

[valtrex]

Oh, thank you for this detail. Didn't really have a idea about Albanian regular army's contribution to war
My Pleasure

Only a little and well-intentioned correction: It's spelled Skanderbeg.
I stand corrected...lapsus linguae

[achilles]

Think what you want, respect who you want. But please do not let national pride or whatever to interfere with history. If this happens, you end up with strange claims concerning losses or ridiculous statements like the one beneath.

What is ridiculous is your attempt to downplay what has been said by Greeks here, regarding the ferocity and importance of the Greek resistance against the axis. Hitler himself said that the most tough opponent with the greatest disregard of death was Greece. I do not really see your problem from that point on. Claiming that a historical quote is ridiculous is indeed ridicilous.

Refresh your memory and take a look again at what Hitler himself said about the Greeks. Or is this a manipulated quote that never took place?

We are not saying that the Greeks won the war. The war could not be won without the brave Russians (of course), the Brits and the Americans, among others. Each one played its important role in this struggle and Greece, given the then conditions, did a pretty good job. THATs the essence of what we are saying here.



Still waiting for sources, mate.

I think i already implied that my numbers are kind of warped. Thanks to the information provided by my compadres in this thread the picture is more clear now. I think an estimate of 5-7% of Greece's total loses as a population percentage is the most corroborated one. This is wikipedia's account, although it contradicts valtrex's estimate ( and i think yours) of the Greek casualties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

Playing with numbers in such cases is pure pettiness. It does not honour the memory of the dead and certainly does not promote the image of anyone trying to downplay the struggle of certain countries.

By all means, do not bombard us with further extemporary calculations while being so eager for the consolidation of my claims.

My numbers were twisted, beyond my knowledge. I stand corrected.

[Pleonasm]

Achilles,

Before I said anything, I had made clear that I respect the Greek defense. I had called it heroic and outstanding.

How can you even think of me having the aim of downplaying anything Greeks have done during the second World War. Hell, I respect Greece and Greek culture and Greek history and Greek people. In addition and as a Serb I regard Greeks as my friends and the ones I personally know are all more than ok.

I was only interested in a clearer picture and you should be too. Valtrex started a great thread with interesting facts and details and I didn't like to see it going to a direction where facts are affected by nationalism.

I honestly regret if I offended anybody with this casualtiy numbers issue and I certainly didn't want to portray the suffering of the Greek people less terrible.

Do you actuelly think that more realistic numbers downplay the struggle of certain nations? I don't think so and like Amateur and you I respect them anyway. But as a person interested in history, I would like to know as much realistic as possible estimates nonetheless.

[Vorian]

WW2 was the last(so far) great Greek achievement in war, so it's natural we get a little hot headed with it.

There are many idiot Greeks, (not in this forum of course), who actually suggest that if we hadn't fought the Italians we would have stopped the Germans!!
Frankly, the only reason we withstood the Germans for a month was the lack of proper roads that stalled German advances.

As for the casualties, the majority were civilian deaths due to starvation. In war we lost relatively few soldiers. Still 500,000 is the number closer to truth and it's a very big percentage for a country of Greece's population.

[achilles]

Pompejus,

I never claimed infallibility of the numbers i provided. I did not hesitate to adopt valtrex's (or amateur's for that matter) depiction of the Greek resistance in numbers, or otherwise.

I think we are all happy if we accept the fact that the USSR had the most casualties, both in absolute numbers and as a percentage of the populace, and that Greece's losses fluctuate somewhere between 4.5 % and 7.5 % of her total population at the time. We should be also happy with the fact that both Greeks and Serbs ferociously resisted the German Axis.

I see nothing nationalistic to my posts and neither should you.

[valtrex]

@Vorian
Yes, the famine of '41, claims 41,188 lives in Athens only. For a well-documented study:
Famine and Death in Occupied Greece, 1941-1944; Violetta Hionidou, University of Newcastle upon Tyne (http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521829328&ss=exc)
NSFW
Famine1 (http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/5715/peina01ap6.jpg)
Famine2 (http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/7789/peina06hp1.jpg)
Famine3 (http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8673/peina09zk9.jpg)
Famine4 (http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/9585/peina07cs1.jpg)
PS: One must pay tribute to the Swedes (especially to the Red Cross admnistrator Paul Mohn), the Greek-Americans of GWRA (Greek War Relief Association) & above all the Turks (the Kurtulus was the first cargo ship that carried food aid for the people suffering under the Nazis), for their humanitarian role.

[achilles]

The people of Turkey thus became the first to lend a helping hand to Greece. Foodstuffs were collected by a nationwide campaign of Kızılay (Turkish Red Crescent), and were sent to the port of İstanbul to be shipped to Greece. SS Kurtuluş was prepared for her voyage with big symbols of the Red Crescent painted on both sides.

After receiving permission from London to interrupt the blockade, the ship left Karaköy Pier on October 6, 1941. Upon landing in Piraeus, the port city near Athens, the International Red Cross took charge of unloading and the distribution of the foodstuffs. In the following months, SS Kurtuluş made 3 more voyages to Greece delivering around 7,100 tons of food aid in total.

On her fifth voyage, after leaving İstanbul two days ago, the old ship was caught in heavy weather and rough seas in the Sea of Marmara. On the night of February 20, 1942, Kurtuluş was blown onto rocks off Saraylar village, north of Marmara Island. She sank the next morning at 9:15. All 34 crew members reached Marmara Island. The place was later named Cape Kurtuluş in her memory.

Despite the loss of SS Kurtuluş, Turkey maintained her determination to help, and continued sending aid until 1946 with other ships like SS Dumlupınar, SS Tunç, SS Konya, SS Güneysu and SS Aksu. One ship, the SS Dumlupınar brought around 1,000 sick Greek children aged 13-16 to İstanbul to recuperate in a safe place [2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Kurtulu%C5%9F

[Kitsune]

As a sign of their appreciation Greece should perhaps officially declare that the Turks can keep Konstantinopolis forever. How about that? ;-)

[Freibier]

My grandfather rolled with 2. Panzer-Division into Salonika.
He only had pleasant memories regarding greece and even after the war visited on a regular basis.
He said that the whole campaign was like a holiday compared to what followed later on the eastern front.

[valtrex]

As a sign of their appreciation Greece should perhaps officially declare that the Turks can keep Konstantinopolis forever. How about that? ;-)

What?
Was Constantinople a Turkish city in 10th century byzantium?
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3417/outragenc5.jpg
;)
PS: Kitsune I'm surprise by you..you're using the Greek name of the city (Konstantinoupolis)...which is not well..politically correct

[Freibier]

Sounds nicer than the current name imho

[Pleonasm]

[...]
I see nothing nationalistic to my posts and neither should you.

I thought that there is a bit of the usual "[insert nation here] strong111" rhetoric. But, ok, when you say you didn't have such intentions. Fine.:)

[Kitsune]

PS: Kitsune I'm surprise by you..you're using the Greek name of the city (Konstantinoupolis)...which is not well..politically correct.
A friend of mine is Half-Greek, thus I know a bit about how Greeks think about this. And how many still call that city. ;-)

[hasanito]

A friend of mine is Half-Greek, thus I know a bit about how Greeks think about this. And how many still call that city. ;-)


What's really ironic is that the city's current (and for the last 554 years!) name IS_TAN_BUL is also a greek word, meaning "the city" or "to the city".

In ancient times, people refered to the city as simply the city as it was a such a well known place that didn't needed an introduction :cantbeli:

[valtrex]

What's really ironic is that the city's current (and for the last 554 years!) name IS_TAN_BUL is also a greek word, meaning "the city" or "to the city".

In ancient times, people refered to the city as simply the city as it was a such a well known place that didn't needed an introduction :cantbeli:

Yep, it was simply Η ΠΟΛΙΣ (The Polis). When Mehmet the Conqueror (Fatih) conquered the city, he renamed it to Konstantiniye (the Ottoman version of its original Greek name Konstantinoupolis), and later was named Istanbul (from the Greek ΕΙΣ ΤΗΝ ΠΟΛΙΝ-->Eis ten Polin, to the city). What's interesting is that Greeks use a latin name for the City, while Turks use a Greek one...but that's another story

[103]

Did Bulgarian forces help the German army?
Were there any clashes between Bulgarian and Greek forces during the German attacks?

[valtrex]

Did Bulgarian forces help the German army?

Yes they did


Were there any clashes between Bulgarian and Greek forces during the German attacks?

2. Bulgarian Forces: The coverage of the Greek-Bulgarian border was undertaken by the VII Infantry Division (stationed at Sveti-Brats), by the X Infantry Division (at Dospat) & the I Infantry Division (at Pasmakli). Bulgarian forces, did not engage the Greeks.

[Vorian]

As a sign of their appreciation Greece should perhaps officially declare that the Turks can keep Konstantinopolis forever. How about that? ;-)

:D :D

LOL. Actually we already have after the 1922 treaty, we have relinquished any claims of eiter Constantinpople or Anatolia. Still we can call it anyway we like, no?

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Yes they did



2. Bulgarian Forces: The coverage of the Greek-Bulgarian border was undertaken by the VII Infantry Division (stationed at Sveti-Brats), by the X Infantry Division (at Dospat) & the I Infantry Division (at Pasmakli). Bulgarian forces, did not engage the Greeks.

So they helped the Germans while not actually doing any fighting?

[Vorian]

The Bulgarians just occupied the territory promised to them, eastern Macedonia and Thrace that is. They wanted it since the Balkan wars and annexed it during 1941-44. Actually Bulgarians were responsible for more executions than the Germans (around 40,000 ) with the massacre in Drama being their worst crime. Even Bulgarians were opposed to the events of Drama.

[Douros81]

Thats a great read, thanks. Also does any one have the photo of the
He-111 flying over the Parthenon, I can't seem to find it.

“Until now, we knew that Greeks were fighting like heroes; from now on we shall say that the heroes fight like Greeks.” - Winston Churchhill, Prime Minister of Britain - 1940

[INAT]

Great thread.In modern times we need a strong Serbia and a strong Greece
to have a stable Balkan peninsula.

[achilles]

Great thread.In modern times we need a strong Serbia and a strong Greece
to have a stable Balkan peninsula.

If the current policy of the ultra civilized "West" continues, you can only expect a strong Albania, Croatia and FYROM (pseudomacedonia) within a few decades down the line. A militarily strong Turkey is already in place.

I wouldnt hold my breath when it comes to a stable Balkan peninsula... "divide and conquer" rules...

[valtrex]

If the current policy of the ultra civilized "West" continues, you can only expect a strong Albania, Croatia and FYROM (pseudomacedonia) within a few decades down the line. A militarily strong Turkey is already in place.

I wouldnt hold my breath when it comes to a stable Balkan peninsula... "divide and conquer" rules...

I don't mind having a strong Serbia, Albania, Croatia & FYROM in the Balkans, as long as they are part of the EU. I hope I 'll live to see the day the western balkan states join the EU as full members

[achilles]

I don't mind having a strong Serbia, Albania, Croatia & FYROM in the Balkans, as long as they are part of the EU. I hope I 'll live to see the day the western balkan states join the EU as full members

I dont mind either. Quite the opposite. Yet i do mind FYROM appropriating our history and the Albanians dreaming of a greater Albania with the blessings of the "West". Countries with such attitudes do not belong to the European Union. Once they change, they will be more than welcomed.

[GREEK71AIRBORNE]

Like Today 6th April 1941 the Nazi German Forces invated Greece
<strong>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgZxhBsfkM8http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/989/roupelafisaoxyra.jpg (http://img717.imageshack.us/i/roupelafisaoxyra.jpg/)

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7089/roupel14.jpg (http://img215.imageshack.us/i/roupel14.jpg/)
The German Comander Salutes the Greek Commander as a sighn of respect an honour for their braveness after the Battle

[GREEK71AIRBORNE]

Here is a nice video in English

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c841W29ARoQ

[valtrex]

Here is a nice video in English

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c841W29ARoQ
Nice video; just a minor correction though, the ground attack against Yugoslavia was codenamed "Unternehmen 25" (Operation 25, after Hitler's Order, "Direktive 25" for the German preparation of the Balkanfeldzug/Balkan Campaign); "Operation Punishment" (Unternehmen Strafgericht) was the relentless aerial bombing of Belgrade.
The attack against Greece was codenamed "Operation Marita" (Unternehmen Marita) or "Unternehmen Maritza" (probably named after the river Maritza (Bul.)/Evros (Gr.) which forms at some point, part of the Bulgaro-Greco-Turkish border); Hitler's Order for the invasion of Greece was "Direktive 20".
Memory Eternal to the Fallen.