Immigration bill killed

[bigeah]

"If we miss this opportunity, there is not likely to be another opportunity in the next few years to fix the system,'' she added. Feinstein said defeat of the bill would mean that between 700,000 and 800,000 illegal immigrants will continue to come into the United States each year.
"Amnesty like beauty is in the eye of the beholder,'' said Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., who has been one of the strongest Republican voices behind such a measure for the past two years. "These 12 million will be there whether we do something or not. To do nothing is to perpetuate anarchy."
Opponents said this morning's vote was about more than the substance of the immigration bill.
This issue, said Sen. Jim DeMint, "has become a war between the American people and their government.'' DeMint, R-S.C., is one of a group of senators who worked hardest to persuade their colleagues to vote against cloture and who used every procedural tactic they could to slow down the progress of the legislation. "I hope all of my colleagues will vote against cloture on this bill.''
"This would be a disaster,'' said Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala. He said the "masters of the universe" who controlled the floor debate even at the end only gave opponents 10 minutes, compared to the 40 minutes supporters had to talk about their positions.





The defeat for the bill climaxes two years of legislative wrangling over this issue. A comprehensive measure passed the Senate last year but failed to become law because House lawmakers did not take the matter up. This year, advocates of such a measure were buoyed by having Democratic majorities in the House and Senate.
The bill would have enhanced border and interior security, and created a workplace verification program, a temporary worker program and a path to legalization for the estimated 12 million undocumented immigrants living here now.
Had today's vote reached the magic number of 60 lawmakers needed to bring debate to a close and force a final vote tomorrow, the measure would have still faced a difficult path in the House. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has said she would wait to see what happened in the Senate before bringing up a bill in the House. But both sides in this debate have long said that if the Senate failed to pass a bill the House would not originate its own.


http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/homepage/abox/article_1747498.php

http://www.criminalgovernment.com/docs/rel/conquestofaztlan.jpg

[Jobu]

Yea votes:

34 Democrats
12 Republicans

Nay votes:

37 Republicans
15 Democrats
1 Independent

[2Sheds_Jackson]

"These 12 million will be there whether we do something or not. To do nothing is to perpetuate anarchy."

BS - how about enforcing existing law? How about a bill that withholds federal funds from states and municipalities who fail to uphold that law? I think Bush is dead wrong on this and I'm glad the bill was stamped flat.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

BS - how about enforcing existing law? How about a bill that withholds federal funds from states and municipalities who fail to uphold that law? I think Bush is dead wrong on this and I'm glad the bill was stamped flat.

x2!

I personally think we should have tried to strengthen the "real" barrier, not build a "virtual" barrier, along the border; with real enforcement.


Then work on guest worker / immigration reform.

[Huntr]

x2!

I personally think we should have tried to strengthen the "real" barrier, not build a "virtual" barrier, along the border; with real enforcement.


Then work on guest worker / immigration reform.



I agree completely! We must police our borders first!!

[shocker1]

The no votes got an ear full back home. They knew a yes would make this their last term. As 2-sheds said enforce the laws we have, seal the friggin border already.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

I agree completely! We must police our borders first!!

I seem to remember hearing that a lot of money for border security was added to the bill, but IIRC a Senator said that the GAO looked at it and they weren't convinced that it would really do anything to deter illegal entry.

[Surf City]

how anyone could think a bill that both Ted Kennedy and George Bush strongly endorsed would be good for the American people!?!:cantbeli:

[ren0312]

I think that immigration numbers should be limited to about 360000 a year, but then that is just me.

[noname]

I wonder how many that voted no employ illegals in their homes as housekeepers/ lawncare/ general contractors. 200 years ago the steps in front of the capital would have been filled with civilians holding firearms ready to enforce certain articles of the federalist papers. I hope the yay voters lose their jobs next round but i am not holding my breath.

[Abolith]

i"m just glad they killed it, although from what I understand the house was ready to cut it's throat if the senate passed it. What amazed me was that those politicians buried their heads in the sand so deeply... I mean they worked far harder to ignore the people then they would have had to if they would have just done what the people wanted.

[Sigfan]

I am disgusted at the lack of attention and repsect that these beaurocrats have for the people of this country. Just like gun laws we have enough damn LAWS. Enforce those. It is ALREADY ILLEGAL to come into this country illegally... DO something about it! Our government has alienated the people of this once great nation so much in the past 30 years. Don't make new laws, round up all 12,000,000.. and their social parasite anchor babies and send them back.We should recall McCain and Kyl for supporting this bill. Traitors! They need to listen to the people. If people don't open their eyes and see that this is a WAR we are going to be in a lot of trouble.

Godbless the USA
Please try to save it from the self important blowhards that will blindly run this country into the ground.

[Ordie]

Fact of the matter the border enforcement is working with or without the wall with 33% drop in arrests along the border during teh past year.

But at the same time, the increased enforcement of the border also has encouraged more Mexican migrants to settle permanently in the United States, rather than return after each season of work; that's leading more family members to follow workers north.

The guest worker proposal would have mitigated the overall number of people entering the country at the same time providing a safe and legal means to work in the US seasonally. (ebb and flow effect)

Building a wall from end to end will not stop undocumented immigration nor will it stop the potential of terrorist threats. (The wall did not prevent China being invaded by the Mongols or Manchus, nor East Germany to fall overnight on November 11, 1989.)

Keep in mind that 40% of undocumented immigrants arrived into this country legally. Ironically enough the 9/11 hijackers arrived here legally. There are only 40 agents assigned in the US to track and apprehend the 40% of all illegal visa overstays. Their priority is to track AQ suspects, not you typical Irish illegal contruction worker in New York. While everyone is fixated on the border, no one is addressing the people who are really screwing the immigration visa system.

Within the next 5-10 years there will be a labor shortage due to the baby boomers retiring, more specifically in the public sector. The struggle is to back-fill the retired positions and trying to keep up labor demand for goods and services for Baby Boomers. More specifically in the hospitality and medical sectors.

Sooner or later immigration reform will happen.

[mohica]

I have a simple solution to the illegal problem. I know this will ruffle some feathers, but this is a national security issue on several fronts. Terrorism, drugs, and economics to include but not limited to taxation, insurance costs, health care, and welfare.

Mine the damn border.

[Ordie]

I have a simple solution to the illegal problem. I know this will ruffle some feathers, but this is a national security issue on several fronts. Terrorism, drugs, and economics to include but not limited to taxation, insurance costs, health care, and welfare.

Mine the damn border.

It would bankrupt the DHS not to mention most of the border property is privately owned.

You may need the government eminant domain process to seize private property.

Not to mention the environmental impact report on the use of land mines on endangered speices.

[Andrew Chalmers]

Increased border security alone isn't going to "sweep" the US clean of illegal immigrants. Like the "war on drugs" - the problem is the high demand for laborers by employers who don't want to pay up for the social costs involved with hiring documents workers.

The generally more pro-business folks in Congress are opposed reform because the current system helps certain businesses profit with less long-term social responsibility (illegals can be worked until they're old and fired without real problems), and the ultra-liberal are opposed to the current deal because it seeks to curtail entry rights.

Mining the borders won't do much - aside from increasing fatalities of people crossing the border (if you hate them that much? ok...) but people will find a way through the border eventually - even if they have to demine with bare hands.

[Desk Jockey]

I got to agree with the guys who say enforce the law,



Increased border security alone isn't going to "sweep" the US clean of illegal immigrants. Like the "war on drugs" - the problem is the high demand for laborers by employers who don't want to pay up for the social costs involved with hiring documents workers.


But there is it, I can look out my office window and in the parking lot of the local Stop & Stop, see the immigrants line up, then the landscapers, contractors, general laborer managers, etc. come by in their nice pick up trucks and get some labor without giving Uncle Sam his dime.

Day is winding down and I can see then dropping the guys off, broad daylight.

And sadly just like drugs when there is a demand, there will be people willing to find a way to meet that demand with supply.

[Abolith]

Fact of the matter the border enforcement is working with or without the wall with 33% drop in arrests along the border during teh past year.


just because there is a drop in arrests doesn't mean there is an equal drop in border crossings.


The guest worker proposal would have mitigated the overall number of people entering the country at the same time providing a safe and legal means to work in the US seasonally. (ebb and flow effect)

You wish. why would they leave after getting here? they can get bennies, get a different job and have a kid or two then stay forever, sucking the system dry.


Within the next 5-10 years there will be a labor shortage due to the baby boomers retiring, more specifically in the public sector. The struggle is to back-fill the retired positions and trying to keep up labor demand for goods and services for Baby Boomers. More specifically in the hospitality and medical sectors.

the vast majority of baby boomers are those that had decent SKILLED jobs, something uneducated illegals cannot fill. ok MAYBE there will be a slight jump in demand for hospitality workers but not 12 MILLION!

[mohica]

Mining the borders won't do much - aside from increasing fatalities of people crossing the border (if you hate them that much? ok...) but people will find a way through the border eventually - even if they have to demine with bare hands.


It is not about love, hate, or any type of emotion Andrew, it is about enforcing the LAW and PROTECTING MY COUNTRY FROM INVASION.

I have no problem with LEGAL immigration. I am not inlcined to change the law or give amnesty because of past lack of enforcement by our government for whatever reason. This is a country of laws, plain and simple.

Maybe you could be the first guy "to find a way through" after mines are placed?

Maybe you could be the first guy to "find a way through" after mines are placed?

Mining the border is a cost effective way to stop illegals from crossing for whatever reason be it work, drug importation, terrorism, human smuggling, etc.

[Sigfan]

"Their priority is to track AQ suspects, not you typical Irish illegal contruction worker in New York. While everyone is fixated on the border, no one is addressing the people who are really screwing the immigration visa system."

C'mon Ordie.. Get real. Because we should be fearful of the Irish migration.. because there are so many of them, because they live 10 to a house? Because they drive down the property value in neighborhoods that they move into? Because they park their cars on the lawn? Because they make up 30% of the entire prison population? Get real, we all know what the real problem is.

[Abolith]

Mining the border is a cost effective way to stop illegals from crossing for whatever reason be it work, drug importation, terrorism, human smuggling, etc.

and what happens when some angry people remove some live mines and place them in new places...like where border patrol agents frequent ?

[Shadowstorm]

It is not about love, hate, or any type of emotion Andrew, it is about enforcing the LAW and PROTECTING MY COUNTRY FROM INVASION.

I have no problem with LEGAL immigration. I am not inlcined to change the law or give amnesty because of past lack of enforcement by our government for whatever reason. This is a country of laws, plain and simple.

Maybe you could be the first guy "to find a way through" after mines are placed?

Maybe you could be the first guy to "find a way through" after mines are placed?

Mining the border is a cost effective way to stop illegals from crossing for whatever reason be it work, drug importation, terrorism, human smuggling, etc.
So your telling me you want a war with Mexico, because putting land mines and other military equipment like tanks and APC/IFVs on border would help stop immigration. Think again.

[GIJOEJK]

http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/homepage/abox/article_1747498.php

http://www.criminalgovernment.com/docs/rel/conquestofaztlan.jpg

"What the Illegal Aliens really think about us"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HFRXAxNlvQ

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Mining the border is a cost effective way to stop illegals from crossing for whatever reason be it work, drug importation, terrorism, human smuggling, etc.

Well that's a start anyway. We'd also need a series of towers with interlocking sight lines, where we would mounts snipers. The snipers primary job would be to suppress any media entities who approach the border to get pictures of all the body parts of migrants and kids and what not decomposing in the sun.

I would also support a covert two-****ged attack, using JDAMS dropped from B2's at altitude and Apache's using hellfires at night (for more mobile targets) against employers who give illegals jobs, and local governments who use illegals to entrench their political power. CIA should create a shell company to produce a series of Barbie-like dolls, marketed exclusively to the illegal community - each doll containing a transponder and half a pound of remotely detonated C4.

[Ordie]

You wish. why would they leave after getting here? they can get bennies, get a different job and have a kid or two then stay forever, sucking the system dry.

Your argument is moot

Many migrants have homes and families in Mexico. It was not uncommon for many migrants to return to thier homes and families in Mexico for Christmas or any Christian holidays. And return seasonally to the US for work.

Many migrants I've talk to have been here for several years and not returned to see thier families due to border enforcement. They are compelled to stay and feel pressured to send for thier families. Or find American spouces.

Ideally, what many migrants wish for is the ability to live in Mexico and work in the US temporarily is a safe and dignified manner. They are willing to pay whatever price (fines, fees, taxes) for the privilage to work in the US.

Currently there are 50,000 Mexican nationals living in Tijuana commuting back and forth each day into San Diego for work. Many have the ability to settle in the US but choose not to. The reason being is that the cost of living, health care and housing in Tijuana is much more affordable than in San Diego.

For these commuters they have the best of two worlds. A US salary with an affordable lifestyle in Mexico.

[bigeah]

Your argument is moot

Many migrants have homes and families in Mexico. It was not uncommon for many migrants to return to thier homes and families in Mexico for Christmas or any Christian holidays. And return seasonally to the US for work.

Many migrants I've talk to have been here for several years and not returned to see thier families due to border enforcement. They are compelled to stay and feel pressured to send for thier families. Or find American spouces.

Ideally, what many migrants wish for is the ability to live in Mexico and work in the US temporarily is a safe and dignified manner. They are willing to pay whatever price (fines, fees, taxes) for the privilage to work in the US.

Currently there are 50,000 Mexican nationals living in Tijuana commuting back and forth each day into San Diego for work. Many have the ability to settle in the US but choose not to. The reason being is that the cost of living, health care and housing in Tijuana is much more affordable than in San Diego.

For these commuters they have the best of two worlds. A US salary with an affordable lifestyle in Mexico.


ahh.. ****! just make new union with mexico...

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Many migrants have homes and families in Mexico. It was not uncommon for many migrants to return to thier homes and families in Mexico for Christmas or any Christian holidays. And return seasonally to the US for work.

Migrant work is an entirely different subject. Migrant workers are legal. they are documented, they are screened and processed etc. Florida is full of migrant worker camps for the people who come in to work the various fields in central FL (tomato's, oranges, melons, whatever). The camps are well funded, with homes, schools, transportation etc. There's nothing quite like a Friday night in Imokalee when everybody gets their paycheck. It's that dark red patch in the map in south central FL.

The border debate is about illegal workers who are deliberately outside our system.

[mohica]

So your telling me you want a war with Mexico, because putting land mines and other military equipment like tanks and APC/IFVs on border would help stop immigration. Think again.

F**K Mexico. Probably the most corrupt gov't in the western hemisphere. Those people have NO right to be here, period. If they want to abide by OUR laws and immigrate legally (the operative word), so be it.

Like I said in a previous post, see what happens when you as a foreigner break Mexican law, particulary immigration. Try immigrating to Mexico. You must have a large bank account. Interesting is you cannot own waterfront property. Of course this "law" as well as most others obviously could change depending on whose palm you grease south of the border. In fact, I believe you could do anything in Mexico for the right money.

I can tell you this, when a couple of amigos decide to make a run for it and last only 100 yards in before they turn into a pink mist, others won't be too quick to follow, so give your head a shake.

[Name Taken]

As a legal immigrant, any kind of amnesty given to these people is outrageous.

Bottom line: America is a great country. What makes it great? The rules/laws that America has. If you come to this country and intentionally break those rules you're taking away what makes it great.

[oregongrunt]

BS - how about enforcing existing law? How about a bill that withholds federal funds from states and municipalities who fail to uphold that law? I think Bush is dead wrong on this and I'm glad the bill was stamped flat.
I agree, fix the border first, then we"ll deal with the illegals.

[shocker1]

In fact, I believe you could do anything in Mexico for the right money.

I can tell you this, when a couple of amigos decide to make a run for it and last only 100 yards in before they turn into a pink mist, others won't be too quick to follow, so give your head a shake.
While I am just as upset over how the Mexicans are abusing our country's free and just society, The right amount of money will buy you loop holes a plenty in this land. Also I have no desire to kill illegal border crossers and would not stand for such nonsense and gore. That said the government has NOT fulfilled it's primary mission of securing the borders of this country. Even with all the bi-partisan fluff about this bill it still failed. which gives me a ray of hope that when enough people write and call their reps things can change. Power of the people killed this horrible excuse of immigration reform.

[GromGrad]

AWESOME! WHAT A RELIEF! DEY TOOKRRRJAAARRRBBSSSS!

:bash:

[Shadowstorm]

F**K Mexico. Probably the most corrupt gov't in the western hemisphere. Those people have NO right to be here, period. If they want to abide by OUR laws and immigrate legally (the operative word), so be it.

Like I said in a previous post, see what happens when you as a foreigner break Mexican law, particulary immigration. Try immigrating to Mexico. You must have a large bank account. Interesting is you cannot own waterfront property. Of course this "law" as well as most others obviously could change depending on whose palm you grease south of the border. In fact, I believe you could do anything in Mexico for the right money.

I can tell you this, when a couple of amigos decide to make a run for it and last only 100 yards in before they turn into a pink mist, others won't be too quick to follow, so give your head a shake.
Now your talking stupid. Mexico is far from being corrupt compare to Cuba, Venezuela and other Latin American nations. So if you want talk common sense go ahead, but what said stupidest thing I heard. So stop hanging out on the far left & right nationalists websites, because they won't get you nowhere except pissing people off.

[Shadowstorm]

While I am just as upset over how the Mexicans are abusing our country's free and just society, The right amount of money will buy you loop holes a plenty in this land. Also I have no desire to kill illegal border crossers and would not stand for such nonsense and gore. That said the government has NOT fulfilled it's primary mission of securing the borders of this country. Even with all the bi-partisan fluff about this bill it still failed. which gives me a ray of hope that when enough people write and call their reps things can change. Power of the people killed this horrible excuse of immigration reform.
And I agree we need immigration reform which both sides can accept. But like I said on this forum a few months ago any immigration bill too hard or too easy will never pass they got to have middle ground. People who talks about putting land mines on the border will not help the cause, but make it more worse than it already is. They should read about the Football War.

[Roids]

I'm probably going to take a few jabs for this, but I agree with Mohica.

No, I don't have a brutal hatred for Mexicans and I don't hang immigrants by hooks in my basement. It's because I think we cannot come up with a better idea to actually have a working physical barrier. We don't have the manpower to patrol the whole border and a wall will just be an expensive project that any Mexican with a witty mind can pass through. I think hell will freeze over sooner then Mexico actually giving us a hand. They could keep the status quo right now, wasted arguing over a bill over and over again and be in great shape. If anyone has a better solution then please bring it on the table, because I don't want us to have to resort to possibly killing people that just want to make a living.

Otherwise, all this "Secure the border first" talk is total nonsense if we do not have any solution to back it up. Maybe our congressmen are taking the right action, maybe we cannot physically secure the border and one of these amnesty bills are the right way to go if even us citizens are not willing to accept any means necessary to protect our borders.

I hope I am wrong and there is another way.

[Shadowstorm]

Well violence ain't going help the immigration problem it would make it worse. However United States and Mexico need's help each other out on the immigration, drugs and illegal gun trade issues. But the immigration issue is one of most diffcult issue to solve, because their are too much issues involved in it.

[nyarlathotep]

I seem to remember hearing that a lot of money for border security was added to the bill, but IIRC a Senator said that the GAO looked at it and they weren't convinced that it would really do anything to deter illegal entry.

I believe there was a part of the bill that allowed dual use of the money to allow speeding up the z visa issuing process which really doesn't apply to border security so that didn't sit well with many.

[nyarlathotep]

Both sides are trying to court future votes, millions of em, at the expense of current voters.

Staunch the flow, we can do it we just have to frickin' apply ourselves just like dieting. We'll never be able to stop it all but we can do a damn sight better than what we got now. After that then we get to addressing migrant worker reform. Hell I'm all for just doing a special deal with mexico only on that.

[mohica]

Now your talking stupid. Mexico is far from being corrupt compare to Cuba, Venezuela and other Latin American nations. So if you want talk common sense go ahead, but what said stupidest thing I heard. So stop hanging out on the far left & right nationalists websites, because they won't get you nowhere except pissing people off.

Really? I'm stupid. I will go a bit further, you don't have a f**king clue to what you are saying dumbass. Mexico is a "democracy", a corrupt one, while Cuba and Venezuela are communist/socialist dictatorships. Apples and oranges. Give your head a shake and take some remedial world government classes so you know what you are saying PRIOR to running your mouth. While you are at it genius, name some of "the other Latin American nations" that are corrupt seeing you are the sociogeographic expert on this site.

I presented a cost effective way to STOP BORDER CROSSINGS OVERNIGHT. All the whiners say we can't do that. Why not? Extraordinary times require extraordinary actions.



Well violence ain't going help the immigration problem it would make it worse. However United States and Mexico need's help each other out on the immigration, drugs and illegal gun trade issues. But the immigration issue is one of most diffcult issue to solve, because their are too much issues involved in it.

As previously stated, no one is advocating violence and it is difficult to understand how you gleaned that from the posts. Mexico "helping" the US on immigration and drugs is a pipe dream at best. They want the money!!!! Not sure where or why firearms came into the discussion, not an issue.

[HR24]

Not sure where or why firearms came into the discussion, not an issue.

It is in the border towns, especially Laredo. Rival Cartel's are having fun going at each other on both sides of the line, trying to gain control to the POE.

[mohica]

It is in the border towns, especially Laredo. Rival Cartel's are having fun going at each other on both sides of the line, trying to gain control to the POE.


Good, then let them kill each other. If it is on US soil, again, kill 'em.

[Shadowstorm]

Really? I'm stupid. I will go a bit further, you don't have a f**king clue to what you are saying dumbass. Mexico is a "democracy", a corrupt one, while Cuba and Venezuela are communist/socialist dictatorships. Apples and oranges. Give your head a shake and take some remedial world government classes so you know what you are saying PRIOR to running your mouth. While you are at it genius, name some of "the other Latin American nations" that are corrupt seeing you are the sociogeographic expert on this site.

I presented a cost effective way to STOP BORDER CROSSINGS OVERNIGHT. All the whiners say we can't do that. Why not? Extraordinary times require extraordinary actions.

No I'm far from f**king stupid like you. Their is no such thing perfect country anywhere in this world. And I know Mexico is corrupt, but the goverment is working to cut that **** down. Yeah I know Venezuela, Cuba, Bolivia and Nicaragua are socialist countries and the other countries in Latin American like El Salvador, Guatemala and Colombia are currupt too.



As previously stated, no one is advocating violence and it is difficult to understand how you gleaned that from the posts. Mexico "helping" the US on immigration and drugs is a pipe dream at best. They want the money!!!! Not sure where or why firearms came into the discussion, not an issue.

Will don't write some stupid s*** down like that. And also Mexico is helping United States out on a lot of issues like drugs and terrorism. But both nations should sit down and talk about the immigration issue and illegal gun trade which a lot illegal firearms coming from the U.S. to Mexico which are being used against the police, military and civilians.

[PsychoMantis]

Well that's a start anyway. We'd also need a series of towers with interlocking sight lines, where we would mounts snipers. The snipers primary job would be to suppress any media entities who approach the border to get pictures of all the body parts of migrants and kids and what not decomposing in the sun.

I would also support a covert two-****ged attack, using JDAMS dropped from B2's at altitude and Apache's using hellfires at night (for more mobile targets) against employers who give illegals jobs, and local governments who use illegals to entrench their political power. CIA should create a shell company to produce a series of Barbie-like dolls, marketed exclusively to the illegal community - each doll containing a transponder and half a pound of remotely detonated C4.
From the looks or avatar and this post,soudns like you got your head on right. Mine the borders,People! Better yet,get thoese metalstorm guns installed there.
http://www.metalstorm.com/freedomweb/clientuploads/March2007Redesign/Redback_integration/Redback_ready_graphic_37.JPG

[mohica]

Will don't write some stupid s*** down like that. And also Mexico is helping United States out on a lot of issues like drugs and terrorism. But both nations should sit down and talk about the immigration issue and illegal gun trade which a lot illegal firearms coming from the U.S. to Mexico which are being used against the police, military and civilians.

The only person that said anything stupid was you my friend. Your idealistic ignorance knows no bounds.

Half of the local and fedral gov't in Mexico are on the take and/or partnered with the drug cartels. It is about the MONEY. How damn thick headed are you? For every time the US is 'helped' by a Mexican authority, another is backdooring us..

You don't think they have talked about it ad nuaseum? Talk is cheap. While you offer your smarmy "sit down and talk" bullsh!t, I am offering a real solution to the problem. If you can't stomach it, then go back inside with your toy poodle and watch Oprah.

[Shadowstorm]

Well I know that stupid. Go and take a damn chill pill and talk some common sense instead running gosh damn mouth about me.

[Roids]

Now now boys, settle down or DW58 will have all our asses.

[Shadowstorm]

Really I'm getting tried arguing these issue especially the immigration. Because too much bull**** and not a enuff facts.

[mohica]

Well I know that stupid. Go and take a damn chill pill and talk some common sense instead running gosh damn mouth about me.

If you know it, then acknowledge it. Don't post like you have your head up your ass. Nobody wants to talk about it any longer, they want action. I think that is evidenced by the cloture vote yesterday.

Ewwwwww, did you call me stupid? Again? Common sense? I don't know that you would recognize it. That is all I have offered, common sense. If you want to immediately stop the illegal trafficking in terrorism, people, drugs, etc., mine the border. Do I think it will happen? Of course not, nobody has the balls to take such a measure.

Therefore, build a wall, criminalize illegal immigration, deport them, don't give citizenship status to babies born here to illegals, take the illegals out of our prisons and ship them back to Mexico, fine businesses that hire illegals, give harsh prison terms to enablers like those that deal in counterfiet documents both Mexican and American, etc, etc,.

[Ordie]

don't give citizenship status to babies born here to illegals.

I'm one of them.

What are you going to do about it?

There are many of us who are in Iraq and Afghanistan serving our beloved country giving back in blood, sweat, and tears.

Sometimes paying the ultimate sacrifice....

[Dasein]

don't give citizenship status to babies born here to illegals.

That would require an ammendment to the Constitution overturning part of the 14th Ammendment.

[mohica]

I'm one of them.

What are you going to do about it?

There are many of us who are in Iraq and Afghanistan serving our beloved country giving back in blood, sweat, and tears.

Sometimes paying the ultimate sacrifice....

I would change the rule. As the other fellow says, I don't think it would take a Constiutional change. Maybe someone else better versed can chime in. I need to check it, but is currently accepted precendence, and it is wrong.

Yeah, and for every one of "you" that are "sometimes paying the ultimate sacrifice", there is 10,000 or more currently costing the American taxpayer $19,000 dollars per year, EACH. That is allot of pesos amigo.

[Roids]

That would require an ammendment to the Constitution overturning part of the 14th Ammendment.

Ron Paul actually wants such legislation, I think he's spot on once again.

[Dasein]

I would change the rule. As the other fellow says, I don't think it would take a Constiutional change.

The 14th Ammendment makes it very clear that all persons born in the United States are citizens. There's really no room for interpretation there. Further, I think most people would be very reluctant to change the requirements for being a citizen.

[shocker1]

The 14th Ammendment makes it very clear that all persons born in the United States are citizens. There's really no room for interpretation there. Further, I think most people would be very reluctant to change the requirements for being a citizen.
An illegal does not legally reside in the US and therefore is not protected. By law their legal residence is in their country of origin However it is not clear cut and if the authors knew how some would take advantage of that 200 odd years later it would not read so all inclusive. We can outlaw booze we can change this loop hole.
Amendment XIV

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Ewwwwww, did you call me stupid? Again? Common sense? I don't know that you would recognize it. That is all I have offered, common sense. If you want to immediately stop the illegal trafficking in terrorism, people, drugs, etc., mine the border. Do I think it will happen? Of course not, nobody has the balls to take such a measure.


Where the hell are the mods? This guy should be permanently banned.
I'm pretty sure that nazis thought that there was nothing wrong in what they were doing to the jews and that putting them in concentration camps and in gas chambers was merely using "common sense". After all, they were saving money by not having to use bullets. Does this sad individual even realize that he is espousing taking measures that would purposely lead to the deaths and mutilations of hundreds or thousands of innocent civilians who's only crime would be to want a better future for them and their children? How many dead women and children would be acceptable to him? Does he even know he's talking about killing humans or does he think that they are some sort of sub-human animal? Only a psychotic mind would preach such barbaric stupidity.
You want to stop drugs from comming accross? One, legalize them or two stop f%#*g using them because you've been fighting the "war on drugs" since the 70's and you're still the world's number one drug using country. Besides, the US produces more mariguana than what is smuggled in anyway.

[schwarz]

Where the hell are the mods? This guy should be permanently banned.
I'm pretty sure that nazis thought that there was nothing wrong in what they were doing to the jews and that putting them in concentration camps and in gas chambers was merely using "common sense". After all, they were saving money by not having to use bullets. Does this sad individual even realize that he is espousing taking measures that would purposely lead to the deaths and mutilations of hundreds or thousands of innocent civilians who's only crime would be to want a better future for them and their children? How many dead women and children would be acceptable to him? Does he even know he's talking about killing humans or does he think that they are some sort of sub-human animal? Only a psychotic mind would preach such barbaric stupidity.
You want to stop drugs from comming accross? One, legalize them or two stop f%#*g using them because you've been fighting the "war on drugs" since the 70's and you're still the world's number one drug using country. Besides, the US produces more mariguana than what is smuggled in anyway.

Mining is waaaay out of control and will never happen. Hes a moron. But the border needs to be locked down. And after that is done anyone caught trying to cross should be dealt with accordingly. I know most only want a better future but they are still breaking the law. Thats like saying oh well Billy Bob robbed the bank so he could feed his baby. Well he is still stealing(just like illegals are stealing tax dollars) and breaking the law he should not be rewarded. The rest of the worlds problems are not always ours but we still help them more than any other country. Just because parts of Mexico are hell holes and people are starving **** jobs, gangs and drug trafficers run some northern towns doesnt mean we take on Mexico's burden at the expense of our civilians. Mexico is a lot better of than some places in this world(Africa for one) and they need to take care of their own problems not encourage them to come to the US and break the law.

The reason the jackasses in DC dont want to touch this is because both sides have sold their sole. Democrats always play the minorities and Republicans sold their sole to big business.


Another opinion I've heard float around(to me it sounds a little "tin foilish") Is if we shut down the border eventually it will cause a backlash in Mexico because of the conditions and so on. Causing a "revolution" and possibly a "unfriendly" govt would get in power. Crazy I dunno doubt it but I guess anything can happen these days.

[Shadowstorm]

It's highly unlikely the 14 Amendment would be overturned even with immigration problems.

[Ordie]

Yeah, and for every one of "you" that are "sometimes paying the ultimate sacrifice", there is 10,000 or more currently costing the American taxpayer $19,000 dollars per year, EACH. That is allot of pesos amigo.

Xenophobia is alive and well in this thread.

Undocumented workers pay an estimated $7 billion in Social Security and $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes a year, with little hope of ever receiving benefits (New York Times).

Everyone pays for sales and property taxes regardless of status (renters pay the property taxes of their landlords). About 60% of undocumented immigrants also pay federal income tax without access to the many federal programs they fund (PewHispanicCenter).

In terms of crime, the arrest and incarceration rate of the US born (3.51) is four times the rate of the foreign-born (.086). (US Census)

Less than 5% of state prison inmates are non-U.S. citizens, which includes permanent residents, temporary legal residents, and undocumented immigrants. (Department of Justice)

Had the reform passed it would have added $4.4 billion for patrols, barriers, cameras and other mechanisms to strengthen the borders. Gone, too, is a plan for the first smart, effective way for employers to verify if workers are legal, as well as stiff criminal penalties for businesses that break the law. (USA Today)

The conversion of undocumented immigrant to legal status would had added more tax payers generating $700 Billion into the US economy.

For those advocating total deportation and enforcement here's the breakdown of costs.


$28 billion per year to apprehend illegal immigrants
$6 billion a year to detain them
$500 million for extra beds
$4 billion to secure borders
$2 million to legally process them
$1.6 billion to bus or fly them home. Appox: $41 Billion (The entire annual budget of the DHS)
(Source:Washinton Post)


In the mean time where F--k is Osama Bin Laden?

[Ordie]

It's highly unlikely the 14 Amendment would be overturned even with immigration problems.

To introduce an amendment you need 2/3rds approval of both the Senate and the House. (With a quorum)

Then the proposed Amendment must get 2/3rds approval of each state legislature.

All it takes is one state to shoot down a proposed amendment.

[Ordie]

Here's an interesting analysis.
It shows alot of hipocracy.



Immigration bill's demise suggests many are OK with status quo

Carolyn Lochhead, Chronicle Washington Bureau (clochhead@sfchronicle.com)
Saturday, June 9, 2007
San Francisco Chronicle
(06-09) 04:00 PDT Washington -- The collapse of the giant immigration overhaul in the Senate might demonstrate that the dreaded status quo -- 12 million people living in the country illegally and more arriving each day -- is not really so dreadful after all.
The multitude of interests involved in the immigration debate -- business groups, ethnic lobbies, politicians in both parties and the American public -- in the end proved unwilling to yield enough to support the bipartisan compromise.
As California Sen. Dianne Feinstein, a Democrat who helped negotiate the failed deal, said, the current immigrant situation in the United States is a de facto amnesty. Even the most ardent advocates of a border crackdown concede that it will be impossible to apprehend and deport 12 million people living here illegally.
But as much as everyone complains about the situation, the enormous black market in labor operating openly in the United States serves the interests of many involved, however imperfectly. It is an amnesty without amnesty.
"Inaction, the status quo, is particularly helpful to employers of unskilled, undocumented workers, because they obviously aren't going to face the potential teeth of tougher employer sanctions," said Daniel Tichenor, a research professor at the Eagleton Institute of Politics at Rutgers University and author of "Dividing Lines: the Politics of Immigration Control in America."
Low-wage industries such as landscaping and nursing homes could fare better in the current freely operating black market than under a heavily regulated temporary worker program that would require migrant workers to leave the country after two years.
A technology company lobbyist complained at one point that Silicon Valley is the only business group that really couldn't live with the status quo, because tech companies rely on legal immigrants.
Peter Duignan, a fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University who has written extensively about Latino immigration, observed that as angry as the public gets about illegal immigration, when it comes to deporting their nannies or housekeepers, people change their views. Economists frequently point out that the middle class benefits enormously from the wide availability of low-cost immigrant labor in restaurants, hotels, retailing, construction and many other service industries.
Unions complain of worker exploitation but are divided over whether the influx is a threat to wages or a large new recruiting pool.
Although everyone claims to want tougher enforcement, recent raids on employers have generated an enormous outcry, not just from immigrants' rights groups but from the same Republican senators who have been demanding a crackdown.
Five Republican senators, including Charles Grassley of Iowa, Wayne Allard of Colorado and John Cornyn of Texas -- all of whom helped block the Senate immigration reform bill -- called Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff to Capitol Hill to complain after federal agents arrested 1,282 illegal immigrants at Swift and Co. meatpacking plants last year.
For Democrats, the failure of the Senate bill allows them to keep the immigration issue alive for the 2008 election, when they will be courting Latino voters. Among the urgent business items next week that Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., said needed to take precedence over the immigration debate is a "no confidence" vote on Attorney General Alberto Gonzales.
Asian and Latino immigrants' rights groups wanted legalization for the 12 million undocumented immigrants but seemed unwilling to accept a major change in the immigration system that would have curtailed the migration of extended families in the future.
Republicans insist on shifting the current immigration system, which relies on family ties, to a merit-based point system that emphasizes job skills and education.
Ironically, the family migration system was designed in the 1920s as a means of keeping out "undesirable" immigrants from southern and eastern Europe, because newer migrants did not have relatives in the United States, Peter Salins, a political scientist at Stonybrook University, noted in a recent article.
The family migration system continues to heavily favor groups with established kinship ties in the United States, which today are Latinos and Asians.
Cecelia Munoz, a top Washington advocate for the National Council of La Raza, argued vehemently against opening immigration "to anybody in the world." Experts believe a point system could open new channels to African immigration, which historically has been heavily under-represented in the United States since the end of American slavery.
The day before the bill failed, supporters had narrowly beaten back Democratic efforts to add 833,000 green cards for extended family migrants -- a defeat that made the bill far less palatable to many pro-immigrant groups.
Those who are most hostile to more immigration, led by Sens. Jim DeMint, R-S.C., and Jeff Sessions, R-Ala., have railed endlessly about toughening the border. But in helping to kill the legislation, they also killed tougher enforcement and identification systems they say would help stop terrorists.
"They're not getting employer sanctions with teeth," Tichenor said, referring to lawmakers who brought down the bill. "They are not getting plans for border reinforcement. They're not getting the more uniform tamper-proof ID system that was to be put into effect with this."
Tichenor said that historically, the odds of enacting any comprehensive immigration reform are never more than 40 percent because a compromise on immigration always involves painful trade-offs among groups with very different vested interests.
"There are so many odd bedfellows, there are so many intra-party battles that end up forming around this issue, that it's always a long shot," he said. "The compromises require uneasy and fleeting alliances and often involve folks swallowing a bitter pill to get some of the reforms they want."
The Senate might yet resurrect the bill. Feinstein and other supporters vowed Friday to press forward. President Bush is scheduled to meet Tuesday with Republican senators at the Capitol.
Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., threatened to attach the immigration overhaul to bills naming a post office if it comes to that. "We are not giving up; we are not giving in," said Sen. Edward Kennedy of Massachusetts, the top Democratic sponsor.
Rep. Zoe Lofgren, a San Jose Democrat and former immigration attorney who chairs the House immigration subcommittee, outlined the many problems that both parties had with the Senate's compromise.
"The conservatives in the House feel that the way they dealt with the undocumented was amnesty," Lofgren said. "Nobody in the business community thinks this point system the way they've created it will work for the American economy. The family system they set up is really quite unworkable. The temporary program doesn't work. I mean, there's a lot not to like about this bill. Having said that, there are remedies for these things. ... I think they should pass something and allow the House to work its will."

[Shadowstorm]

To introduce an amendment you need 2/3rds approval of both the Senate and the House. (With a quorum)

Then the proposed Amendment must get 2/3rds approval of each state legislature.

All it takes is one state to shoot down a proposed amendment.
Yeah I know, but I very doubt amendment will be touch.

[shocker1]

Undocumented workers pay an estimated $7 billion in Social Security and $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes a year, with little hope of ever receiving benefits (New York Times).

Everyone pays for sales and property taxes regardless of status (renters pay the property taxes of their landlords). About 60% of undocumented immigrants also pay federal income tax without access to the many federal programs they fund (PewHispanicCenter).
I am sorry but it is not our responsibility to support these people. That fly under the radar, use stolen or borrowed SSI numbers. If they are illegal in their status who gives them these SSI numbers? If they have an EIN from the Feds, how did they obtain that since their status is illegal? Just because the Pew Hispanic center and the NYT says this I should look over them being since they pay. How about the thousands that live 10 20 to a house. Do all of them pay their share of property tax? Don't tell me this is a false assumption because the evidence is all around.

Hutchison Medical center is millions of dollars in the hole due to undocumented people using the hospital and then never paying back. How many more medical facilities are in financial straights because illegal border crossers abuse the system? I do not owe them (illegals) anything, they owe us the courtesy of using the system in a legal fashion. We owe LEGAL migrant workers an easy way to get to the jobs they need to fill. Letting it slide because they use some dead guys SSI and then the poor folks can't use the benefits of the system. BS they have ran up county and state costs out of control. It is time to stop it the right way. No matter how much you think it will hurt the country's purse.

[shocker1]

There are even local farms that buy up houses around and house their illegal workers. Some of them are my customers and I do fell sorry for the position they are in but they made that bed not me. However this group home thing these farmers do and paying substandard money is akin to slavery. I am not an advocate of mass deportation and even would forgive those who step up. That bill however would do to little to stop illegal border crossers. While granting a pass to millions. At some point this must end.

A friend of mine is a contractor and he only hires legal residents. he is continuously under bid by folks who pick up their $10 an hour workers at the street corner. While my bud pays the skilled labor rate of $18 to $25 an hour and loses bids thereby undercutting LEGAL workers. This is WRONG!

Then lets not forget that most who run the border have never had any inoculations to our standards.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Those people that like to read real publications that don't just invent facts and figures out of thin air know that it is a well established fact that undocumented workers contribute way more to the U.S. economy than what they take away: http://www.dallasfed.org/research/swe/2003/swe0306a.html
Some xenophobes even conveniently like to forget the contributions that undocumented immigrants have done to the U.S. in the past. It was braceros and undocumented immigrants that kept the U.S. countryside productive during WW2, evectively feeding the whole United States and many of its allies while at the same time freeing hundreds of thousands of young men so they could go to war. They also kept the U.S. countryside going during the Vietnam and Korean wars. During these times of crisis border patrolmen would even detain illegal immigrants, put them in the back of their vehicles and drive them to the employers. I guess some people just have very poor memories, that, or very selective ones.:roll:

[Shadowstorm]

I'm split on the immigration issue. Because if people are working and doing good let them stay and pay some of the money, like taxes. However the ones are causing trouble send them back to their country. I agree we do something about the borders, but not putting mines or building a wall, because to me the wall is a waste of money and time. However we need more border patrol agents and high-tech systems to protect are borders.

[0rphie]

How do european countries deal with illegal immigrants?

[AZRON]

I'm split on the immigration issue. Because if people are working and doing good let them stay and pay some of the money, like taxes. However the ones are causing trouble send them back to their country. I agree we do something about the borders, but not putting mines or building a wall, because to me the wall is a waste of money and time. However we need more border patrol agents and high-tech systems to protect are borders.

One well kept secret is how the Mexican economy works.

Basically 9% of the population is of nearly pure White-European ancestory.
The have near total monopolistic control of the Mexican economy. Some 40 Euro immigrant families( Spanish-French-Irish) own 30% of the wealth in Mexico. The tax rate in Mexico is about 11% of the GNP , it's about 29-33% of the GNP in the U.S. Many of these families date back to Spanish times and were recipients of large Land Grants. These 9%'ers are about 80% of the faces you see on Telemundo.

The next group in Mexico are about 60% of the popoulation they are generally a mix of Euro and Indian ethnic groups , you can call them Hispanics or Metizo. They are generally the middle-class and some of the upper class and are very nationalistic towards Mexico.

The lowest class in Mexico is the Indigenous Indians making up 30% of the population . The Spanish and now the Mex. Fed. gov't has been at war with many of these tribes forever. These people are dirt poor and entire tribes have been nearly irradicated by the Mex. gov't , such as the Yaquis who have migrated to the U.S. from the 1920-1950s or face near genocide. There are still Indian wars going on in s. Mexico in Chappas.

During the '50s an oil boom happened in Mexico with the promise of the money would help all Mexicans ( the 9%'ers the most) . Clinics , hospitals , schools etc. But mainly near Mexico City not the rest of the country. Miss management , corruption and decay of the PEMEX infrastructure has occured. They can't borrow money to fix it since they keep devalueing the PESO to cover up the miss management. So world banks are leery of helping them. In a nutshell the Mexican economy is screwed up badly to prototect the 9% White - Euros( 80% of the face time on Telemundo). The corruption is so bad it's estimated to be 14% of the GNP. As things get more and more screwed up many come here as there is little opportunity in Mexico unless you belong to the White-Euro 9% ( Which get 80% of the facetime on Telemundo).
Those coming here send $40-50 B back a year. This relieves the pressure on the 9% White-Euros( Which get 80% of the facetime on Telemundo) . It keeps them fat rich and happy while they pay one of the lowest tax rates in the developed world . While we Americans pay 29% taxes and are supposed to help the 9% White-Euros ( Which get 80% of the facetime on Telemundo) stay in power by using our tax money to support the poor Mexicans here while the poor Mexicans here .While the Mexicans here send money to Mexico that relieves the pressure on the 9% White-Euros( Which get 80% of the facetime on Telemundo) and keeps them in power.

P.S. Calderon is aware of this and is trying to change things. Plus an honest middle-class is growing up north near the U.S. border . But the violence and corruption from the Drug Cartels and the illegal smiuglers is most challenging to this emerging middle-class . But it may take 20 years to fix the problem if it can be done. In the meantime we keep the 9% White-Euros( Which get 80% of the facetime on Telemundo ) in power.

[AZRON]

I'm split on the immigration issue. Because if people are working and doing good let them stay and pay some of the money, like taxes. However the ones are causing trouble send them back to their country. I agree we do something about the borders, but not putting mines or building a wall, because to me the wall is a waste of money and time. However we need more border patrol agents and high-tech systems to protect are borders.

I surely don't want mines as I don't want to kill the illegals.
But this no wall talk is pure B.S.
Why not ????

Some say they don't work 100% and that is true. Try they work 80-85%
Ask the Israeli's on this forum if the wall to keep out homicide bombers has helped .

The Great Wall of China didn't work either , after 1000 year a traitor opened a gate and let invaders in.

The Berlin Wall didn't work either , it just slowed down escapes from the Workers Paradise from about 5000 a week to about 500 a year to Berlin.
I guess that is total failure among some people.


Any wall is just one of many tools and it discourages and slows you down.
With electronic devices , fine you see them on a TV screen and wait :30 minutes for the BP to arrive , ooooppsss ....... they're gone !

I've read wher one neighborhood in San Diego had a horrific crime rate of Mexicans sneaking over and commiting crimes then going back to Mexico.

A wall was built and crimes dropped 80% . But of course it's not perfect since only an 80% drop.
Use all tools including walls , the reason many don't want the wall is they are aware of the success in Israel and E. Berlin and so build a mythical case againist a wall. Pure propaganda.

P.S. Have you surveyed the Isrealis' yet ?

[mohica]

Where the hell are the mods? This guy should be permanently banned.

Ahhh, Felix, I knew it was just a matter of time before you showed up. We have gone round before. Aside from your juvinile name calling and obviuous incapability of understanding the merits of my "plan", you espouse first rate liberalism with a passion. Typical of you socialist libs, try and silence those you disagree with.



I'm pretty sure that nazis thought that there was nothing wrong in what they were doing to the jews and that putting them in concentration camps and in gas chambers was merely using "common sense". After all, they were saving money by not having to use bullets.

Comparing WWII era Nazi's treatment of Jews to the United States current ILLEGAL migrant issue is not only a poor analogy, it is disingenuous and an insult to the intelligence of readers of this thread, well some of them.



Does this sad individual even realize that he is espousing taking measures that would purposely lead to the deaths and mutilations of hundreds or thousands of innocent civilians who's only crime would be to want a better future for them and their children? How many dead women and children would be acceptable to him? Does he even know he's talking about killing humans or does he think that they are some sort of sub-human animal? Only a psychotic mind would preach such barbaric stupidity.

My idea to mine the border is as I stated is a surefire measure to seal the border. That is the topic I hand, sealing the border. Simple really. I also stated, and I will recap for Felix and others that have a hard time with the written word, I am fully aware this won't happen.

What you have done with you limited capabilities of comprehension is distorted the purpose of my statement which completely escaped you. What I was conveying Felix, is that the border could be protected IF there really was a desire to do so by the powers that be. Again, my proposal obviously would not be used, but protecting this country could be accomplished.

Also, it is not my responsibility to give anyone anything, particularly when they are LAWBREAKERS coming into MY country ILLEGALLY. That is the crime Felix, not wanting a better life. I don't give a rat's ass what they are looking for, either abide by the rules or you are out.



You want to stop drugs from comming accross? One, legalize them or two stop f%#*g using them because you've been fighting the "war on drugs" since the 70's and you're still the world's number one drug using country. Besides, the US produces more mariguana than what is smuggled in anyway.

Hey, lookee there!! Felix has it all solved, and so simply. Hot damn, as good as you are and applying your logic and technique we could solve the border problem in no time!!



Mining is waaaay out of control and will never happen. Hes a moron. But the border needs to be locked down. And after that is done anyone caught trying to cross should be dealt with accordingly.

Ok, genius. Now that you have the talking points down, lets have some substance. 1)Lets here YOUR plan to "lock the border down." using your term 2) How would you deal with them "accordingly"?


I know most only want a better future but they are still breaking the law. Thats like saying oh well Billy Bob robbed the bank so he could feed his baby. Well he is still stealing(just like illegals are stealing tax dollars) and breaking the law he should not be rewarded. The rest of the worlds problems are not always ours but we still help them more than any other country. Just because parts of Mexico are hell holes and people are starving **** jobs, gangs and drug trafficers run some northern towns doesnt mean we take on Mexico's burden at the expense of our civilians. Mexico is a lot better of than some places in this world(Africa for one) and they need to take care of their own problems not encourage them to come to the US and break the law.

I will say that was well said.


The reason the jackasses in DC dont want to touch this is because both sides have sold their sole. Democrats always play the minorities and Republicans sold their sole to big business.

Pretty accurate statement. FYI, it is soul, not sole. Unless you are giving away shoes.



Another opinion I've heard float around(to me it sounds a little "tin foilish") Is if we shut down the border eventually it will cause a backlash in Mexico because of the conditions and so on. Causing a "revolution" and possibly a "unfriendly" govt would get in power. Crazy I dunno doubt it but I guess anything can happen these days.

Never heard that one but it is an interesting theory but unlikely.




Xenophobia is alive and well in this thread.

Ordie, late here but I will give it a try. Be advised, your figures or statistics are skewed or screwed, whichever you prefer.

Have your read the Heritage Foundation report that was presented to Congress? You need to so your facts are straight.


Undocumented workers pay an estimated $7 billion in Social Security and $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes a year, with little hope of ever receiving benefits (New York Times).

FYI, an estimated 12,000,000 illegals at 19K per. You do the math. Oh yes, $22,000,000,000 is sent back to Mexico each year, much of it not taxed. They ain't spending much here either. Even it that was the case, why should they receive benefits anyway? They are ILLEGAL!!!!

Explain to me how an undocumented/illegal worker pays taxes? You beleive the NY Times? You may as well read Bejing Today.


Everyone pays for sales and property taxes regardless of status (renters pay the property taxes of their landlords). About 60% of undocumented immigrants also pay federal income tax without access to the many federal programs they fund Pe
wHispanicCenter.

Again, how does an undoucmented/ILLEGAL MIGRANT pay fedral income tax? I am sure the Pew Hispanic Center has no interest in skewing their figures.


In terms of crime, the arrest and incarceration rate of the US born (3.51) is four times the rate of the foreign-born (.086). (US Census)


Foreign who? If you look at the ILLEGAL Mexican arrest and incarceration rate, it is much higher than the overall illegal rate that you quote.

[quote=Ordie;2602330]Less than 5% of state prison inmates are non-U.S. citizens, which includes permanent residents, temporary legal residents, and undocumented immigrants. (Department of Justice)

How in the hell do they know? Most of them have fake identities.


Had the reform passed it would have added $4.4 billion for patrols, barriers, cameras and other mechanisms to strengthen the borders. Gone, too, is a plan for the first smart, effective way for employers to verify if workers are legal, as well as stiff criminal penalties for businesses that break the law. (USA Today)

The money for those things you mention is already there and has been for some time. None has been invested while this abortion of a bill was debated.

How about some stiff penalties for ILLEGAL MIGRANTS that break the law. How about some stiff penalties for those that supply false indetifications documents.


The conversion of undocumented immigrant to legal status would had added more tax payers generating $700 Billion into the US economy.

What are you smoking?


For those advocating total deportation and enforcement here's the breakdown of costs


$28 billion per year to apprehend illegal immigrants

$6 billion a year to detain them
$500 million for extra beds
$4 billion to secure borders
$2 million to legally process them
$1.6 billion to bus or fly them home. Appox: $41 Billion (The entire annual budget of the DHS)
Source:Washinton Post

Cheap compared to what they are costing us now. I emphasize, read teh Heritage Foundaton report to Congress.

If you mine the border, it wouldn't cost near that much, probabaly not more than mid seven figures. It is virtually maintainance free!! Plus, you could cut down on the required number of border agents, stop the drug trafficking and the associated problems and costs, save on welfare, free medical care , housing, and shcooling, curb potential terrorism, etc.


[quote=Ordie;2602330]n the mean time where F--k is Osama Bin Laden?

Probably dead.

[Calanen]

It is not about love, hate, or any type of emotion Andrew, it is about enforcing the LAW and PROTECTING MY COUNTRY FROM INVASION.

Mining the border is a cost effective way to stop illegals from crossing for whatever reason be it work, drug importation, terrorism, human smuggling, etc.

Although effective, that would be a pretty difficult PR campaign to sell. Some of the immigration changes made sense to me, to change away from family quotas to favour English ability and educational qualifications seems sensible.

It is however up to the US to decide what it wants to do - but neither the problem or its solution is going to be simple.

[Dasein]

Have your read the Heritage Foundation report that was presented to Congress? You need to so your facts are straight.

Why should we assume a conservative think-tank's numbers aren't biased? You seem quick to accuse any of your opponents numbers of bias, so why not apply the same reasoning to the Heritage Foundation. What agenda are they pushing, and how have they skewed the data to support that agenda?


Explain to me how an undocumented/illegal worker pays taxes?

Pretty easy - if they use a fake Social Security number, the SS taxes are automatically withheld from their paycheck, but since the SS number is fake, they will never take out of social security what they put in. The same goes for Federal and State income taxes, they're withheld from the paycheck, regardless of immigration status.

[Shadowstorm]

I surely don't want mines as I don't want to kill the illegals.
But this no wall talk is pure B.S.
Why not ????

Some say they don't work 100% and that is true. Try they work 80-85%
Ask the Israeli's on this forum if the wall to keep out homicide bombers has helped .

The Great Wall of China didn't work either , after 1000 year a traitor opened a gate and let invaders in.

The Berlin Wall didn't work either , it just slowed down escapes from the Workers Paradise from about 5000 a week to about 500 a year to Berlin.
I guess that is total failure among some people.


Any wall is just one of many tools and it discourages and slows you down.
With electronic devices , fine you see them on a TV screen and wait :30 minutes for the BP to arrive , ooooppsss ....... they're gone !

I've read wher one neighborhood in San Diego had a horrific crime rate of Mexicans sneaking over and commiting crimes then going back to Mexico.

A wall was built and crimes dropped 80% . But of course it's not perfect since only an 80% drop.
Use all tools including walls , the reason many don't want the wall is they are aware of the success in Israel and E. Berlin and so build a mythical case againist a wall. Pure propaganda.

P.S. Have you surveyed the Isrealis' yet ?
And I agree, but Israel is the size of New Jersey and it's easy for them patrol their's border to protect them from terrorism. The Berlin Wall "or the wall that almost started World War III" which forced their own people to stay in East Germany or else.

[Shadowstorm]

Ahhh, Felix, I knew it was just a matter of time before you showed up. We have gone round before. Aside from your juvinile name calling and obviuous incapability of understanding the merits of my "plan", you espouse first rate liberalism with a passion. Typical of you socialist libs, try and silence those you disagree with.




Comparing WWII era Nazi's treatment of Jews to the United States current ILLEGAL migrant issue is not only a poor analogy, it is disingenuous and an insult to the intelligence of readers of this thread, well some of them.




My idea to mine the border is as I stated is a surefire measure to seal the border. That is the topic I hand, sealing the border. Simple really. I also stated, and I will recap for Felix and others that have a hard time with the written word, I am fully aware this won't happen.

What you have done with you limited capabilities of comprehension is distorted the purpose of my statement which completely escaped you. What I was conveying Felix, is that the border could be protected IF there really was a desire to do so by the powers that be. Again, my proposal obviously would not be used, but protecting this country could be accomplished.

Also, it is not my responsibility to give anyone anything, particularly when they are LAWBREAKERS coming into MY country ILLEGALLY. That is the crime Felix, not wanting a better life. I don't give a rat's ass what they are looking for, either abide by the rules or you are out.




Hey, lookee there!! Felix has it all solved, and so simply. Hot damn, as good as you are and applying your logic and technique we could solve the border problem in no time!!




Ok, genius. Now that you have the talking points down, lets have some substance. 1)Lets here YOUR plan to "lock the border down." using your term 2) How would you deal with them "accordingly"?



I will say that was well said.



Pretty accurate statement. FYI, it is soul, not sole. Unless you are giving away shoes.




Never heard that one but it is an interesting theory but unlikely.





Ordie, late here but I will give it a try. Be advised, your figures or statistics are skewed or screwed, whichever you prefer.

Have your read the Heritage Foundation report that was presented to Congress? You need to so your facts are straight.



FYI, an estimated 12,000,000 illegals at 19K per. You do the math. Oh yes, $22,000,000,000 is sent back to Mexico each year, much of it not taxed. They ain't spending much here either. Even it that was the case, why should they receive benefits anyway? They are ILLEGAL!!!!

Explain to me how an undocumented/illegal worker pays taxes? You beleive the NY Times? You may as well read Bejing Today.



Again, how does an undoucmented/ILLEGAL MIGRANT pay fedral income tax? I am sure the Pew Hispanic Center has no interest in skewing their figures.

[quote=Ordie;2602330]In terms of crime, the arrest and incarceration rate of the US born (3.51) is four times the rate of the foreign-born (.086). (US Census)[quote]

Foreign who? If you look at the ILLEGAL Mexican arrest and incarceration rate, it is much higher than the overall illegal rate that you quote.



How in the hell do they know? Most of them have fake identities.



The money for those things you mention is already there and has been for some time. None has been invested while this abortion of a bill was debated.

How about some stiff penalties for ILLEGAL MIGRANTS that break the law. How about some stiff penalties for those that supply false indetifications documents.



What are you smoking?



Cheap compared to what they are costing us now. I emphasize, read teh Heritage Foundaton report to Congress.

If you mine the border, it wouldn't cost near that much, probabaly not more than mid seven figures. It is virtually maintainance free!! Plus, you could cut down on the required number of border agents, stop the drug trafficking and the associated problems and costs, save on welfare, free medical care , housing, and shcooling, curb potential terrorism, etc.




Probably dead.
Mochica you are sounding like a hypocrit everytime you write something down. Your like a broken record.

[Felix U. Gómez]

One well kept secret is how the Mexican economy works.

Basically 9% of the population is of nearly pure White-European ancestory.
The have near total monopolistic control of the Mexican economy. Some 40 Euro immigrant families( Spanish-French-Irish) own 30% of the wealth in Mexico. The tax rate in Mexico is about 11% of the GNP , it's about 29-33% of the GNP in the U.S. Many of these families date back to Spanish times and were recipients of large Land Grants. These 9%'ers are about 80% of the faces you see on Telemundo.

The next group in Mexico are about 60% of the popoulation they are generally a mix of Euro and Indian ethnic groups , you can call them Hispanics or Metizo. They are generally the middle-class and some of the upper class and are very nationalistic towards Mexico.

The lowest class in Mexico is the Indigenous Indians making up 30% of the population . The Spanish and now the Mex. Fed. gov't has been at war with many of these tribes forever. These people are dirt poor and entire tribes have been nearly irradicated by the Mex. gov't , such as the Yaquis who have migrated to the U.S. from the 1920-1950s or face near genocide. There are still Indian wars going on in s. Mexico in Chappas.

During the '50s an oil boom happened in Mexico with the promise of the money would help all Mexicans ( the 9%'ers the most) . Clinics , hospitals , schools etc. But mainly near Mexico City not the rest of the country. Miss management , corruption and decay of the PEMEX infrastructure has occured. They can't borrow money to fix it since they keep devalueing the PESO to cover up the miss management. So world banks are leery of helping them. In a nutshell the Mexican economy is screwed up badly to prototect the 9% White - Euros( 80% of the face time on Telemundo). The corruption is so bad it's estimated to be 14% of the GNP. As things get more and more screwed up many come here as there is little opportunity in Mexico unless you belong to the White-Euro 9% ( Which get 80% of the facetime on Telemundo).
Those coming here send $40-50 B back a year. This relieves the pressure on the 9% White-Euros( Which get 80% of the facetime on Telemundo) . It keeps them fat rich and happy while they pay one of the lowest tax rates in the developed world . While we Americans pay 29% taxes and are supposed to help the 9% White-Euros ( Which get 80% of the facetime on Telemundo) stay in power by using our tax money to support the poor Mexicans here while the poor Mexicans here .While the Mexicans here send money to Mexico that relieves the pressure on the 9% White-Euros( Which get 80% of the facetime on Telemundo) and keeps them in power.

P.S. Calderon is aware of this and is trying to change things. Plus an honest middle-class is growing up north near the U.S. border . But the violence and corruption from the Drug Cartels and the illegal smiuglers is most challenging to this emerging middle-class . But it may take 20 years to fix the problem if it can be done. In the meantime we keep the 9% White-Euros( Which get 80% of the facetime on Telemundo ) in power.

Azron:
I really appreciate you trying to understand my country, de verdad I do, but buddy you really need to stop reading the same comic books as monica does. Your little Mexico 101 piece is so full of holes that it would make a decent slab of swiss cheese. For example:

It is a well accepted fact that the term hispanic applies to all of us that live in a Spanish speaking country or that have ancestry from such a country. Race plays no part in calling oneself hispanic, you could be black, white, indian, mestizo, or something else. We are all hispanic or latino which are interchangeable. What's more, what color or tone you are really doesn't matter to the vast majority of us, if it does to someone, it means that they are idiot slobs. I personally don't know anyone in Mexico that goes around asking about race. To believe that is just ignorant. Besides, let me remind you that we abolished the institution of slavery early after our independence, and that in our first century as an independent nation we had several presidents of mixed blood (Vicente Guerrero (Spanish, Indian, Black), Benito Juarez (a full-blooded Zapotec Indian), and Porfirio Diaz (of Mixtec blood). Whithin more than 231 years of U.S. independence, how many non-whites or people of mixed blood have you had as president?

Another false statement that you make: that the Yaquis were nearly exterminated and that there are wars against indians in Chiapas (not Chappas). The Yaquis still exist, they have their own lands, and there is no current war being fought against indians in Chiapas or any other Mexican state. Besides, it is a little like the case of the pot calling the kettle black, no mon ami? I can claim to have a lot of indian blood in me, and so can most Mexicans. How many US citizens can claim the same, what percentage? I can answer that; very, very few, because the US followed a very aggressive war of virtual extermination against the indian tribes in all its territory during the 1800's, especially those that would not give up their lands.

The other false thing you say is about Telemundo. First let me explain one thing to you, neither Telemundo nor Univision are Mexican owned. They are owned by Cuban-Americans in the US, not Mexico. Perhaps you can't tell us appart, but we can.

About the 40-50 billion sent back to Mexico by Mexicans in the US. First of all let me say... we wish!!! Show me, from a reliable source were you got this figure. Last year it was the largest ever for remitances, but they weren't even half of what you claim. Another point that people like to omit about the remitances is that a very large part of that is sent home by legal alliens, who also have families in Mexico. Besides, the remitances are a product of "work", not handouts, and in my book, work=money. In other words, they earned it, not stole it.

One thing that you are right is about the taxes. The Mexican government doesn't collect enough. At this moment a debate in congress is about begin on the fiscal reform presented by president Calderon. It forces businesses to pay their fair share. We hope that it passes.

Lastly, please tell me who these "40 families that own 30% of the wealth" in Mexico are? It is true, we do have a very large share of rich people in Mexico. But, it is way more than just 40 families. I think that you are confusing us with El Salvador or Belice. However I will tell you who makes a krap load of money in Mexico and don't pay their fair share of taxes: US corporations. They love cheap labor and low taxes, and here in Mexico they make a killing. Already the maquila industry are starting to be the first critics of the proposed tax reform. Did you that Walmart is the second largest employer in Mexico after the government (who has teachers, beaurocrats, soldiers, healthcare workers, etc. in its payroll)?

There are a few more mistakes that you make, but I will leave it there (it's not worth it). If you really wan't to know about our history I suggest that you read something like Mexico Biography of Power, A History of Modern Mexico 1810-1996, by Enrique Krauze (a real Mexican that tells it how it is).

P.S. Monica: is the best you can do is to call me a liberal? How stupid and closeminded can you be? First of all, I don't live in your country. Mexico's political spectrum is different from yours. Second, people who live in other countries have different perspectives than you (that's why they're called other countries). The last time you were making some extravagant claims that Texas belonged to the Apaches (all ten of them), and now you are ranting and drooling about placing mines the border. How are we ever going to win the drug war if people like you keep stuffing their peace pipes with mariguana instead of cow dung and smoking up a hallucinogenic storm?

[Calanen]

My idea to mine the border is as I stated is a surefire measure to seal the border.


A minefield that stretches for nearly 2000 miles?

[mohica]

Why should we assume a conservative think-tank's numbers aren't biased? You seem quick to accuse any of your opponents numbers of bias, so why not apply the same reasoning to the Heritage Foundation. What agenda are they pushing, and how have they skewed the data to support that agenda?

The Heritage Foundations report was accepted by Congress as factual evidence during testimony. I highly doubt the NY Times or Washington Post reporting was considered thus.


Pretty easy - if they use a fake Social Security number, the SS taxes are automatically withheld from their paycheck, but since the SS number is fake, they will never take out of social security what they put in. The same goes for Federal and State income taxes, they're withheld from the paycheck, regardless of immigration status.

Uhhhhh, with a "fake" SS number they are no longer undocumented now are they. I have news for you, that "fake" SS number once entered in the system ceases to be "fake."



Mochica you are sounding like a hypocrit everytime you write something down. Your like a broken record.

Really? Back it up big boy. How about an example of my hypcorisy, if you can.




P.S. Monica: is the best you can do is to call me a liberal? How stupid and closeminded can you be? First of all, I don't live in your country. Mexico's political spectrum is different from yours. Second, people who live in other countries have different perspectives than you (that's why they're called other countries). The last time you were making some extravagant claims that Texas belonged to the Apaches (all ten of them), and now you are ranting and drooling about placing mines the border. How are we ever going to win the drug war if people like you keep stuffing their peace pipes with mariguana instead of cow dung and smoking up a hallucinogenic storm?

Liberal is a politically correct term for socialist, which is what you are. I thank God you don't live in MY country, and I wish your ILLEGAL bretheren weren't here either. That is the operative word Felix, ILLEGALLY.

Your liberalism/socialism, how could anyone glean anything else from reading your posts? You think Mexican nationals should be able to come to the US unfettered. You believe Texas belongs to Mexcio. What kind of horsesh!t is that?

I don't care what a Mexican's perspective is Felix, nor how tough it is in Mexico. That is Mexicio's problem, not the US of A's. In case you hadn't heard, things are tough all over.

Not only Apache Felix, but Commanche and a few others. I believe Geronimo earned a good portion of his reputation fighting and killing Mexican inturders on Apache land. Remember, the American Indian rightfully saw no boundries to their terrritory or was the American Indian wrong too Felix? It is alway poor old Mexico getting the short end to of the stick with you isn't it.

Felix, I can't figure out if you are just stupiid, have dislexia, or both. I will say if for the third or fourth time. Landmines would work to almost immediately stop the problem for MY country Felix. You don't want it for YOUR country because all the crap coming out of Mexico is not a problem for Mexico but a boon, that is why it is condoned by the government there as well as people like you. All I can say to that is, Remember the Alamo !!!

I am aware landmines are not gonna happen. I was simply making a statement about an immediate cost effective solution to the myriad of problems coming from our southern border. That is all, it is a nothing more.

Seeing that you are so pro Mexicans ILLEGALLY coming to the US, why don't you tell everyone how Mexico treats ILLEGAL migrants coming up from Nicaragua, El Salvador, etc. Tell the truth Felix, I am watching.

[Dasein]

The Heritage Foundations report was accepted by Congress as factual evidence during testimony. I highly doubt the NY Times or Washington Post reporting was considered thus.

That doesn't mean it's not biased, nor does it prove that the other reports are less factual. Congress, after all, has its own set of biases.


Uhhhhh, with a "fake" SS number they are no longer undocumented now are they. I have news for you, that "fake" SS number once entered in the system ceases to be "fake."

I don't really see what your point is here. Using a bogus SS number (stolen, fake, etc.) doesn't make one documented in the sense of having a legal right to work in the US. However, that won't stop SS and income taxes from being deducted from a paycheck. Really, only people beng payed in cash under the table would not be paying taxes. Of cours,e everyone pays sales taxes and other usage-based taxes regardless of immigration status.


Liberal is a politically correct term for socialist, which is what you are.

I don't think you have the slightest idea of what a socialist is. Please explain to me how liberalism is the same as socialism as Marx described it.

[Ordie]

Heritage Foundation is a regressive conservative think tank. Do not pretend they are not biased.

Xenophobia an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers.
-dictionary.com

[mohica]

That doesn't mean it's not biased, nor does it prove that the other reports are less factual. Congress, after all, has its own set of biases.

The numbers are the numbers. You can sugarcoat it all you want, the bottom line is that ILLEGAL MIGRANTS cost the US taxpayer much, much more than they contribute. It's all dollars and sense.



I don't really see what your point is here. Using a bogus SS number (stolen, fake, etc.) doesn't make one documented in the sense of having a legal right to work in the US. However, that won't stop SS and income taxes from being deducted from a paycheck. Really, only people beng payed in cash under the table would not be paying taxes. Of cours,e everyone pays sales taxes and other usage-based taxes regardless of immigration status.

It was your point my friend. You extolled the virtues of the abundance of monies going into the reserve by "undocumented" aliens, when in the same sentence you say they have "fake" SS numbers. If that is the case, THEN THE AREN"T UNDOUCUMENTED!! Jesus H Chist, how f**king hard is that to understand? If they can put money in, they can get it out. Whether they choose to or not is another story.

I am not even gonna get into the huge underground criminal enterprise stealing and creating SS numbers and other forms of doc's to facilitate the ILLEGALS transgressions against the sovereignty of the Estados Unidas.



I don't think you have the slightest idea of what a socialist is. Please explain to me how liberalism is the same as socialism as Marx described it.

Uhhhhh, you better read up, Marx didn't "describe" socialism. Try the Communist Manifesto, learn a little. I don't want to get into a politcal ideaology discussion here and take away from the topic at hand, which in case you have forgotten is ILLEGAL MIGRANTS.

I will say this though to help you understand, in our "capatilist" society, I will start with income redistribution, the fundamental ideal of the lib/socialist. The lib/socialists want to penalize the hard worker or dare I say it, the evil wealthy, and tax him into oblivion to support the welfare status of a large amount of the non-working or lazy population. Primarily though, it is to just give more to those who don't have as much as the guy down the street. No individualism - eveyone is the same. In case you haven't realized, not everyone is created equal as you are led to believe. Equal opportunity may be there, but recoginition of it, drive, initiative, and/or talent may not.

In their eyes, the libs/socialists think they know what is best for the individual, how he should live, how much he needs, what he should do. Of course this doesn't apply to the "ruling polituburo leftist elitists", they are exempt from their own ideaology because somebody has to run the show, right?

I can go on but I think you get the point?

[mohica]

Heritage Foundation is a regressive conservative think tank. Do not pretend they are not biased.

Xenophobia an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers.
-dictionary.com


Ordie, Ordie, Ordie. You too suffer from dislexia. The one "large" word in your vocabulary and you're feeling pretty good. Problem is you are incorrect in your assessment of the situation.

I have no fear nor hatred of foreigners, I just don't want them in MY country ILLEGALLY. Pretty simple isn't it buddy. Is there something about the meaning of word ILLEGAL that escapes you? The pernicious effect the ILLEGALS have and will have on this country will be irreversible if not controlled.

Tell you what, since you are in favor of ILLEGAL MIGRANTS, why don't you put a couple up in your house to help out tough guy.

[shocker1]

Heritage Foundation is a regressive conservative think tank. Do not pretend they are not biased.

Xenophobia an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers.
-dictionary.com

Xenophobe? No Americans demanding action. Wanting a system that controls our border. Is that too much to ask? Is security the a primary function of government? What am I as an American expected to think about someone who's first action upon entering my country is to break laws?

Main Entry: crime http://www.webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:popWin%28%27/cgi-bin/audio.pl?crime001.wav=crime%27%29)
****unciation: 'krIm
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin crimen accusation, reproach, crime; probably akin to Latin cernere to sift, determine
1 : an act or the commission of an act that is forbidden or the omission of a duty that is commanded by a public law and that makes the offender liable to punishment by that law; especially : a gross violation of law
Main Entry: an·ar·chy http://www.webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:popWin%28%27/cgi-bin/audio.pl?anarch11.wav=anarchy%27%29) http://www.webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:popWin%28%27/cgi-bin/audio.pl?anarch10.wav=anarchy%27%29)
****unciation: 'a-n&r-kE, -"när-
Function: noun
Etymology: Medieval Latin anarchia, from Greek, from anarchos having no ruler, from an- + archos ruler -
1 a : absence of government b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government
2 a : absence or denial of any authority or established order b : absence of order : --

[Dasein]

The numbers are the numbers.

Unless they're published ina source you consider biased, like the New York Times?


It was your point my friend. You extolled the virtues of the abundance of monies going into the reserve by "undocumented" aliens, when in the same sentence you say they have "fake" SS numbers. If that is the case, THEN THE AREN"T UNDOUCUMENTED!! Jesus H Chist, how f**king hard is that to understand? If they can put money in, they can get it out. Whether they choose to or not is another story.

A fake social security number is not documentation and more than a fake ID saying I'm 21 makes me 21. It might be enough to get me in a bar, but that's not the same as making me 21 for real. The fake social security number might be enough to get you a job, especially if the employer is willing to look the other way a bit, but that's not going to be good enough to get benefits from the program.


I will say this though to help you understand, in our "capatilist" society, I will start with income redistribution, the fundamental ideal of the lib/socialist. The lib/socialists want to penalize the hard worker or dare I say it, the evil wealthy, and tax him into oblivion to support the welfare status of a large amount of the non-working or lazy population. Primarily though, it is to just give more to those who don't have as much as the guy down the street. No individualism - eveyone is the same. In case you haven't realized, not everyone is created equal as you are led to believe. Equal opportunity may be there, but recoginition of it, drive, initiative, and/or talent may not.

First, Socialism advocates the abolition of private property, with workers or the state controlling industry. Income redistribution is by no means the defining characteristic of socialism.

Second, all governments that engage in taxation and spending (which is pretty much all governments) engage in income redistribution, as the tax dollars are income that is redistributed through spending. This spending could be in the form of social welfare or government contracts, but the effect is the same in that income is redistributred by the government form one party to another.

Third, social welfare programs are the result of urbanization and industrialization, and are pragmatic, not ideoligic. Social welfare is neither liberla nor conservative, but simply a necessary aspect of the modern state.

[AZRON]

Azron:
I really appreciate you trying to understand my country, de verdad I do, but buddy you really need to stop reading the same comic books as monica does. Your little Mexico 101 piece is so full of holes that it would make a decent slab of swiss cheese. For example:


Hey I'm pro-Mexican what I'm againist is your monopolistic economy and tax structure that keeps the oligarchic merchantile princes in power and using my country to do so.

As to the Yaquis about 1920 few if any in the U.S. Over the next 30 years bands and bands came here as they were driven out of the tribal area by the Mex. Fed. gov't. They became a recognized tribe in the U.S. during the 1970s era. Today the run casinos in the Tucson metro area.

My best example is go back to 1953 and the end of the Korean War.

Korea litterly destroyed by years of Chinese and Japanese occupation and three years of devasting war just ending .

Mexico a poor impoverished country that has just starting to develope an industry based on petroleum making economic progress possible for it's citizens.

Fast forward to 2007.

S. Korea a economic success with a relatively prosperous nation. Having slowly developed democracy and losening the grip of the oligarchs.

N. Korea , a workers paradise of starvation and brutality.

Mexico - still waiting for the economic prosperity.

Why is S. Korea a success with less natural resources and more devastation than Mexico ? While Mexico can't survive without remittances from the U.S. and my tax money supporting their exported workers.

The Mexican oligarchs (white-Euros) still run the country that is why . As they have since the Spanish conquered it.

I wish Calderon maximum success the people of Mexico deserve better treatment from their gov't.

[mohica]

Unless they're published ina source you consider biased, like the New York Times?

Are you saying the NY Times is not THE liberal bastion of the United States? Like I said, you might as well read Bejing Today.



A fake social security number is not documentation and more than a fake ID saying I'm 21 makes me 21. It might be enough to get me in a bar, but that's not the same as making me 21 for real. The fake social security number might be enough to get you a job, especially if the employer is willing to look the other way a bit, but that's not going to be good enough to get benefits from the program.

Boy, you really don't get it do you? The SS number is the root of all other identification relative to "becoming a citizen". It is the gold medal, the Hope diamond. Don't forget that. Drivers licenses et al are secondary for long term goals but are often acquired with greater ease.




First, Socialism advocates the abolition of private property, with workers or the state controlling industry. Income redistribution is by no means the defining characteristic of socialism.

COMMUNISM advocates the abolition of priviate property rights, and most other rights for that matter. Socialism, being tantamount to a watered down communism, is a little more liberal in it's acceptence of ownership ability. More often in socialism, the gov't allows limited ownership and is the "partner" of the individual owner. Of course this doesn't hold true in all socialist societies, but most have come to this because why? They want the MONEY!!

Income resdistribution is by all means a (not the) defining characteristic of soccialism. Most are taught that in grade school government class. Where were you? The thing is, the governemnt generally controls all the income through the state so it is redistributed prior to an inidiviudal ever seeing any of it. In essence, everyone works for the government.


Second, all governments that engage in taxation and spending (which is pretty much all governments) engage in income redistribution, as the tax dollars are income that is redistributed through spending. This spending could be in the form of social welfare or government contracts, but the effect is the same in that income is redistributred by the government form one party to another.

Under our form of gov't, federal taxation was not intended for redistribution amongst the citizens based on econmic standing. Being different from the socialist description above, the citizens earn the income then have it taken after the fact. Big difference. Ironic is the initial intent was to help fund the common defense and federal programs to benefit all, not a few i.e. the poor. Granted, as society grew there became a need to help the disinfranchised or ill, but not what the system has become.


Third, social welfare programs are the result of urbanization and industrialization, and are pragmatic, not ideoligic. Social welfare is neither liberla nor conservative, but simply a necessary aspect of the modern state.

Not so fast my friend. Russia and most of the Eastern Block before the fall were nothing but social welfare societies, not just programs but whole societies. Check out Holland and Denmark. Are you kidding me?

Our system is abused beyond belief and is perpetuated in force by the liberals in this country. You have people with their hands out voting for people giving the handouts. Freeloaders and many ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS abuse the good people of this country and their generosity for a free ride.

Cutting through all the bullsh!t, the premise of this thread, at least my contributions, is not to reward LAWBREAKERS, DON"T GIVE OUT FREEBEES, PUNISH THOSE THAT VILOATE THE LAWS. I don't know how much simpler I can voice my opinion.

[deagle]

i dont think that is immigration control. our country can barely support our own CITIZENS right now. the immigration bill COULD work, if it was revised i think. there's a process to be able to become a US citizen, one that most ppl are proud of to go through thru, and to just let it be given away it seems is a slap in the face to other immigrants who are legit.

[Henry's Fork]

I wonder, if it was next to impossible for a illegal to find work here in the US, would there still be millions of them crossing the border, illegaly, every year?

That said, something needs to be done to keep the illegals out. The above mentions of mines and sentry guns is great if we were the commies or nazis. Not gonna fly. Admittingly, i dont have a real answer.

The real sad part is, and my family hire them, is that legal migrant workers are still very cost saving, on top of that, they almost always do a quicker, cleaner, better job than a illegal. (in my personal experiences)

Oh well, we already sold out to China, might as well open the borders completely. Let Beijing deal with them.

[Dasein]

Cutting through all the bullsh!t, the premise of this thread, at least my contributions, is not to reward LAWBREAKERS, DON"T GIVE OUT FREEBEES, PUNISH THOSE THAT VILOATE THE LAWS. I don't know how much simpler I can voice my opinion.

This country was founded by lawbreakers, and has a long tradition of rewarding and romanticizing those who break laws. Frankly, calling someone a lawbreaker is not much of an insult in a country founded by revolution.

[AZRON]

I wonder, if it was next to impossible for a illegal to find work here in the US, would there still be millions of them crossing the border, illegaly, every year?



It would slow it down quite noticeably to a manageable self fixing problem.

The current slow down in the construction industry has to be playing a part in the invasion scenario. But do they go back or go on welfare or into crime ?

I'm pissed over our gutless pols being unable to do something.
We do need a Barcero type program and other methods of controlling migrant labor but we do need migrant labor.

One problem few mention is the numbers. In 1986 the estimated 1 million turned out to be 3 million.

So now we estimate 12 million but I would guess it's 20 million or more.

[Shadowstorm]

The Heritage Foundations report was accepted by Congress as factual evidence during testimony. I highly doubt the NY Times or Washington Post reporting was considered thus.



Uhhhhh, with a "fake" SS number they are no longer undocumented now are they. I have news for you, that "fake" SS number once entered in the system ceases to be "fake."



Really? Back it up big boy. How about an example of my hypcorisy, if you can.




Liberal is a politically correct term for socialist, which is what you are. I thank God you don't live in MY country, and I wish your ILLEGAL bretheren weren't here either. That is the operative word Felix, ILLEGALLY.

Your liberalism/socialism, how could anyone glean anything else from reading your posts? You think Mexican nationals should be able to come to the US unfettered. You believe Texas belongs to Mexcio. What kind of horsesh!t is that?

I don't care what a Mexican's perspective is Felix, nor how tough it is in Mexico. That is Mexicio's problem, not the US of A's. In case you hadn't heard, things are tough all over.

Not only Apache Felix, but Commanche and a few others. I believe Geronimo earned a good portion of his reputation fighting and killing Mexican inturders on Apache land. Remember, the American Indian rightfully saw no boundries to their terrritory or was the American Indian wrong too Felix? It is alway poor old Mexico getting the short end to of the stick with you isn't it.

Felix, I can't figure out if you are just stupiid, have dislexia, or both. I will say if for the third or fourth time. Landmines would work to almost immediately stop the problem for MY country Felix. You don't want it for YOUR country because all the crap coming out of Mexico is not a problem for Mexico but a boon, that is why it is condoned by the government there as well as people like you. All I can say to that is, Remember the Alamo !!!

I am aware landmines are not gonna happen. I was simply making a statement about an immediate cost effective solution to the myriad of problems coming from our southern border. That is all, it is a nothing more.

Seeing that you are so pro Mexicans ILLEGALLY coming to the US, why don't you tell everyone how Mexico treats ILLEGAL migrants coming up from Nicaragua, El Salvador, etc. Tell the truth Felix, I am watching.
First thing you wanted to mined the border, then you turn around said you don't want no violence and now your back saying you mined the border. That's hypocritical man.

[Shadowstorm]

Hey I'm pro-Mexican what I'm againist is your monopolistic economy and tax structure that keeps the oligarchic merchantile princes in power and using my country to do so.

As to the Yaquis about 1920 few if any in the U.S. Over the next 30 years bands and bands came here as they were driven out of the tribal area by the Mex. Fed. gov't. They became a recognized tribe in the U.S. during the 1970s era. Today the run casinos in the Tucson metro area.

My best example is go back to 1953 and the end of the Korean War.

Korea litterly destroyed by years of Chinese and Japanese occupation and three years of devasting war just ending .

Mexico a poor impoverished country that has just starting to develope an industry based on petroleum making economic progress possible for it's citizens.

Fast forward to 2007.

S. Korea a economic success with a relatively prosperous nation. Having slowly developed democracy and losening the grip of the oligarchs.

N. Korea , a workers paradise of starvation and brutality.

Mexico - still waiting for the economic prosperity.

Why is S. Korea a success with less natural resources and more devastation than Mexico ? While Mexico can't survive without remittances from the U.S. and my tax money supporting their exported workers.

The Mexican oligarchs (white-Euros) still run the country that is why . As they have since the Spanish conquered it.

I wish Calderon maximum success the people of Mexico deserve better treatment from their gov't.
I agree with their man. I wish Calderon can do more for Mexico, but right to him fighting the drug cartels in Mexico is a number one issue there.

[Henry's Fork]

It would slow it down quite noticeably to a manageable self fixing problem.

The current slow down in the construction industry has to be playing a part in the invasion scenario. But do they go back or go on welfare or into crime ?

I'm pissed over our gutless pols being unable to do something.
We do need a Barcero type program and other methods of controlling migrant labor but we do need migrant labor.

One problem few mention is the numbers. In 1986 the estimated 1 million turned out to be 3 million.

So now we estimate 12 million but I would guess it's 20 million or more.

I have to agree with ya.

Our gutless pols seem to be part of the problem themselves. They cant piss off the people who are hiring these tens of millions of illegals. Too many pesos involved.

Legal Migrant workers are needed, and by the number of illegals, that number is high. But this can be done all by the book more or less properly, one would think.

[mohica]

This country was founded by lawbreakers, and has a long tradition of rewarding and romanticizing those who break laws. Frankly, calling someone a lawbreaker is not much of an insult in a country founded by revolution.

Yawwwwn.


First thing you wanted to mined the border, then you turn around said you don't want no violence and now your back saying you mined the border. That's hypocritical man.

Dude, what is your major malfunction? I said mine the border, not go out and shoot the ILLEGAL MIGRANTS.

If the border was mined and a guy wants to break American laws by entering this country ILLEGALLY, it is at his own risk. That is what I am talking about.

[shocker1]

This country was founded by lawbreakers, and has a long tradition of rewarding and romanticizing those who break laws. Frankly, calling someone a lawbreaker is not much of an insult in a country founded by revolution.
Oh now that's just stupid. What the hell is this? So your saying........

"It's not right for us to want laws enforced due to the riff raff that fomented the civil criminal activity that was the American Revolution. Therefore I should support these lawbreakers in their quest for law and order" rofl

[Felix U. Gómez]

Tell you what, since you are in favor of ILLEGAL MIGRANTS, why don't you put a couple up in your house to help out tough guy.

Ay, ay, ay, monica. You're so lame. Tell you what, since you're so hot up on placing mines on the border between two countries that are neighbors, at peace, and each others principal trading partners (give or take a couple of spaces), and the idea of killing other humans doesn't bother you, why don't we start by putting a mine in your head so you won't be walking around with so much empty space up there.
About the terms liberal and socialist. I don't think that you have a clue as to what they mean either. To you its probably just anyone that doesn't agree with radical extremist way of seeing the world. People like you are what's wrong with this world, you you do know that right?

[mohica]

Ay, ay, ay, mohica. You're so lame. Tell you what, since you're so hot up on placing mines on the border between two countries that are neighbors, at peace, and each others principal trading partners (give or take a couple of spaces), and the idea of killing other humans doesn't bother you, why don't we start by putting a mine in your head so you won't be walking around with so much empty space up there.

You are such a nimrod. How in the hell do you get along in life? I can bet it isn't through much effort of your own.

If you weren't so ignorant, it would almost be laughable, but it isn't, it is tragic.

There is a concerted effort in the Mexican gov't to "export" humans to the US because the Mexican gov't is corrupt and wants the money. The Mexican gov't can't creat jobs and industry in their own country so they encourage poor Mexicans to invade mine.

The people in the US owe nothing to the people of Mexico, regardless of their living conditons or lack of work. That is a Mexican problem, don't keep tryihg to make it an American problem.

To clear it up for you oh challenged one, if in fact the border was mined, the Mexican populace would have fair warning so how is it if someone was injured it is anyone's fault but the person trying to cross ILLEGALLY?

Let me simplify your warped logic for everyone. Little Felix's mommy tells him not to touch the stove because it is hot and he will get burned. Felix, being the dumbass he is, touches the stovetop. Using Felix's logic he would blame his mother for turning the stove on!!

Do you even have the slightest understanding of LAW? I wouldn't expect you to know American law, but you should have some idea of Mexican law. Do you know if the US had similar immigration laws as Mexico's, every Mexican coming into this country would be thrown in jail? You still haven't answered several questions posed to you, one being how does Mexico treat ILLEGAL migrants coming up from Nicaragua and El Salvador, just to name a couple. C'mon buddy, fill us in on the welcoming arms of Mexico's southern border.


About the terms liberal and socialist. I don't think that you have a clue as to what they mean either. To you its probably just anyone that doesn't agree with radical extremist way of seeing the world. People like you are what's wrong with this world, you you do know that right?

I can assure you, the last person I would take any politcal or government oriented information from would be someone like yourself that lives in la la land. How is the Kool Aid?

[Dasein]

Oh now that's just stupid. What the hell is this? So your saying........

"It's not right for us to want laws enforced due to the riff raff that fomented the civil criminal activity that was the American Revolution. Therefore I should support these lawbreakers in their quest for law and order" rofl

I'm just pointing out that we have a long traditon of civil disobedience that is honored and respected in this country, from the Boston Tea Party and Underground Railroad (escaped slaves were breaking the law) to the bootleggers of the prohibition era, the civil disobedients of the Civil Rights Movement and draft resistors during Vietnam. All were breaking the law, but we see them as heroes or romantic figures, not criminals. Thus, when you say illegal immigrants should be ostracized simply because they are violating the law, I must ask why those laws should be respected? Obedience to law is not an absolute concept in the United States, and we often give great leeway and respect to those who refuse to obey laws due to issues of conscience.

[Ordie]

I wonder, if it was next to impossible for a illegal to find work here in the US, would there still be millions of them crossing the border, illegaly, every year?.

The largest employment sector for undocumented labor in the US are private households.

[Ordie]

i dont think that is immigration control. our country can barely support our own CITIZENS right now. the immigration bill COULD work, if it was revised i think. there's a process to be able to become a US citizen, one that most ppl are proud of to go through thru, and to just let it be given away it seems is a slap in the face to other immigrants who are legit.

The majority of the undocumented do not want citizenship.
They want to work and the freedom to fail.

They are willing to pay any price, fine, fees and taxes for that priviliage. Cross the border with dignity, work seasonally, and return home to thier families with dignity.

When you're placed in limbo, day to day survival is the primary goal.

Not citizenship.


Regardless of the nativist attitudes, they have more faith in America than many in the USA. Otherwise they would not sacrifice leaving thier families, living in poor conditions, and risking everything.

[schwarz]

Ok, genius. Now that you have the talking points down, lets have some substance. 1)Lets here YOUR plan to "lock the border down." using your term 2) How would you deal with them "accordingly"?




You finish building the fence that has been ordered/funded to be built. But they keep putting it off for some reason:cantbeli:. You have a consatnt military
presence on the border with Mexico and you deal with anyone trying to cross the border "accordingly" by shooting and killing them where they stand no questions asked. Is it going to be cheap?No. Will it be easy? No but you cant put mines on the border with a country like Mexico. If they were a military threat then I would agree.

I am not one to ever listen or give a flying **** what the world thinks about us(U.S.) but you cannot put mines on the border with a country like Mexico everybody and their brother will go ape****(trust me you dont want people getting mangled/killed my mines on the Mexican Texas border).


Mines are a no no now days even on the battlefield let alone on the border. What if one of our civilians is being a dumbass and decides to go dig up a mine(oh I am sure some jackass would try it) or it just out walking around maybe gets lost or something and steps on a mine(hey anything could happen).

I know where your coming from on the mine issue. And I dont think you just want to put them there "cuz them goddamn Mexicans" or "took errr jerbs". Mining is a cheap and simple solution but it will never happen. It wont happen and I am not just saying that because I dont think its the best solution. Just like we will never take the gloves off in the GWOT and finish the job once and for all. Because were too afraid of what people will think about us.

[Ordie]

What am I as an American expected to think about someone who's first action upon entering my country is to break laws?

"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone".
-John 7:53-8:11

Fact of the matter Americans break laws everyday.
Whether its speeding, jaywalking, parking in a red zone, avoiding taxes etc...

This is why I find the argument of accusing others in breaking laws hippocritical.

[Shadowstorm]

Like I said, don't listen to Mochica sarcastic views.

[Ordie]

How do european countries deal with illegal immigrants?

Depends on the laws of each European nation.

Undocumented immigrants in Europe are more likely to be unemployed than in the US. Ironically Western Europe needs immigrants to lessen the strains of an aging population and low birth rates.

This has been specifically true in Spain, Italy and Germany.

Of these three nations, Spain has taken a more inclusionary policy as a means to curb decline in the rural sector, and build its industrial sector (shipbuilding, auto, aircraft etc..)

Italy has been granting citizenship of Italian grandchildren in Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil.

France on the otherhand, has employment protection laws that are more strict. High minimum wages, union privilages, social protection and regulation discourages new hires and industrial devlopment. This is why young French people are emigrating to the UK, and the US for jobs. And manufacturing jobs to Spain and Poland.

[Pigdog]

What are the reasons for borders again?

[shocker1]

"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone".
-John 7:53-8:11

Fact of the matter Americans break laws everyday.
Whether its speeding, jaywalking, parking in a red zone, avoiding taxes etc...

This is why I find the argument of accusing others in breaking laws hippocritical.
Ordie, thats the lamest reasoning you have there. While I forgive these poor folks in my heart, as an American citizen I demand law enforcment. Not "well it's ok to ignore Americas laws I got a speeding ticket yesterday which gives license to all comers to break our laws."

With all due respect to your family history Americans breaking laws does not justify illegal immigrants breaking our laws. Simple as that.

BTW, what laws have I broken? I pay my share in taxes, provide jobs and services to the community. I did lay some rubber in front of the house yesterday, guess that excludes me from demanding action.

[Andrew Chalmers]

Yaderlin Hiraldo Jimenez, the wife of missing Army Spc. Alex Jimenez, no longer has to worry about being deported as she awaits word of her husband's fate.On Friday, Yaderlin walked into a U.S. Citizenship and Naturalization Services Office in Buffalo, N.Y. She left with a green card in her hand, guaranteeing she can stay in the U.S. for the rest of her life."She was moved to tears," her lawyer Matthew Kolken, who went with her to the immigration office, told the Boston Sunday Globe."Her immigration problems have been solved in their entirety and now her focus is completely dedicated to her hope and desire that she's going to see her husband again," Kolken added.The move came after U.S. Department of Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said last month that his agency would "terminate" the deportation case against Yaderlin so she could stay in the country and apply for permanent resident status.At the time, Chertoff said in a letter to Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., that "the sacrifices made by our soldiers and their families deserve our greatest respect."Jimenez, of Lawrence, Mass., and a comrade, Pvt. Byron Fouty, 19, of Waterford, Mich. have been missing since their unit was attacked by insurgents in Iraq on May 12.Jimenez had petitioned for a green card for his wife, whom he married in 2004.Yaderlin illegally entered the United States from the Dominican Republic in June 2001, paying $500 to a smuggler and walking three days from Mexico to California.Her husband's request for a green card and legal residence status for her alerted authorities to her situation.On Friday, the Pentagon changed the status of Jimenez and Fouty from "whereabouts unknown" to "missing/captured."The change reflects an official determination that the two were seized by hostile forces. The earlier designation is typically used when a soldier goes missing but military officials have not confirmed the circumstances.The change does not mean the military has gained any new information about their whereabouts.Kolken said Yaderlin hopes to apply for citizenship so she can eventually vote. She also hopes to attend college, he said."She commented about how much she loved this country," Kolken said.

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/13602764/detail.html

Still want to mine the border?

[Dasein]

You finish building the fence that has been ordered/funded to be built. But they keep putting it off for some reason:cantbeli:. You have a consatnt military
presence on the border with Mexico and you deal with anyone trying to cross the border "accordingly" by shooting and killing them where they stand no questions asked.

The problem with this approach is two-fold.

First, many people, soldiers included, have a problem with shooting unarmed women and children in cold blood. The people that can shoot women and children should be in prison, not guarding our borders.

Second, as soon as they step foor on US soil, they are protected by US law.

[mohica]

I'm just pointing out that we have a long traditon of civil disobedience that is honored and respected in this country, from the Boston Tea Party and Underground Railroad (escaped slaves were breaking the law) to the bootleggers of the prohibition era, the civil disobedients of the Civil Rights Movement and draft resistors during Vietnam.

Civil disobedience by AMERICAN CITIZENS, not illegal migrants. Trying to gain independence from a tyranical gov't 250 years ago and 3000 miles away is a far cry from a guy coming into an established country to pick strawberries and have babies.



All were breaking the law, but we see them as heroes or romantic figures, not criminals. Thus, when you say illegal immigrants should be ostracized simply because they are violating the law, I must ask why those laws should be respected? Obedience to law is not an absolute concept in the United States, and we often give great leeway and respect to those who refuse to obey laws due to issues of conscience.


You see draft dodgers as heroes or romantic figures? I guess we don't need any more information than that to understand where you are coming from.

Illegal migrants violating a soverign nations laws, hmmmm. "Illegal migrants should be ostracized simply for viloating those laws?" Are you f**king kidding me? What kind of stupid sh!t is that?



The majority of the undocumented do not want citizenship.
They want to work and the freedom to fail.

They don't want citizenship? What is your source for that information? Freedom to fail what, an attempt at entering our countyr illegally?


They are willing to pay any price, fine, fees and taxes for that priviliage. Cross the border with dignity, work seasonally, and return home to thier families with dignity.

Really, pay any price? Taxes? I think you are misguided. They don't want to return to their families, they want to bring their families here !!


When you're placed in limbo, day to day survival is the primary goal.

Not citizenship.

Nobody is placing them in "limbo" but themselves, by violating US law by entering the country ILLEGALLY and getting false ID's, not learning english, abusing our welfare system, etc. Do we need to get into the Mexican gangs and drug dealing?



Regardless of the nativist attitudes, they have more faith in America than many in the USA. Otherwise they would not sacrifice leaving thier families, living in poor conditions, and risking everything.

The faith they have it in the abitity to come here and earn money because their own gov't is inept, courrupt, and incapapble of any effort to stimulate the Mexican economy to create jobs.

The new Mexican president hopefully will be step in the right direction and he will make an ernest effort to improve the lives of his citizens.



"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone".
-John 7:53-8:11

Fact of the matter Americans break laws everyday.
Whether its speeding, jaywalking, parking in a red zone, avoiding taxes etc...

This is why I find the argument of accusing others in breaking laws hippocritical.

I am dumbfounded. How can you respond to that? It is unbelievable there are people in this country that can actully get through life with such a galactically stupid "thought" process. I guess you just skate by riding everyone else's coat tails.


http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/13602764/detail.html

Still want to mine the border?

Even more so now that you take one case of a guy that probably went in the military for a better job than farm labor, not necessarily for any great love of this country. I could be wrong, appreciate his service, but don't make him out to be anything more than the American citizens that have served their country.

[shocker1]

Boston Tea Party and Underground Railroad (escaped slaves were breaking the law) to the bootleggers of the prohibition era, the civil disobedients of the Civil Rights Movement and draft resistors during Vietnam.
Besides the fact you are fine with FOREIGN CRIMINAL ACTIVITY, all the above mentioned are and were Americans. Your analogy is flawed in so many ways that if you do not see it why bother explaining.

Now I am an American demanding my government secure our borders, provide a cost effective fair entry method for NAFTA nations migrant workers, provide for the enforcement of immigration laws and put out of business those who undermine law abiding business owners like me.

I expect foreign migrants to respect the process my elected government provides for them to enter and for NAFTA nations to pull their weight(Mexico).

Is this to much of me to ask? Why is it the argument turns on what America is going to do? If times get rough here do all these "brave" people jump ship here? Loyalty anyone? No one asks these questions because it gets in the way.

We need migrant workers that want to follow the law and we need a government to provide for and enforce those laws. That is what is NOT happening.

[AZRON]

The majority of the undocumented do not want citizenship.


Regardless of the nativist attitudes, they have more faith in America than many in the USA. Otherwise they would not sacrifice leaving thier families, living in poor conditions, and risking everything.

That sounds good and noble but let's deal with reality.

Reality is a refrigeration technician making $200 a month in Ensenada and jumping the border to Las Vegas and making $200 aday.

Once again the the Mexican economy is totally FU and at this point in time the game is to cover their sorry assed oligarchic contolled economy by exporting labor to the US and getting the remittances allowing the oligarchs to survive. The oligarchs plan to ease pressure by dispersing the PEMEX cash flow to the masses while the oligarchs are among the lowest taxed Elites in the world.

Even Pres. Calderon stated his nations path to success is reversing the flow of it's workers and population.

The Mexican economy hasn't advanced much in style of doing business since the Spanish conquered it. Throw in 71 years of PRI control and here we are.

The proud Mexicans want the hated Yankees to bail them out of a mess they created themselves under terms dictated by the Mexicans.

[Ordie]

.
Now I am an American demanding my government secure our borders, provide a cost effective fair entry method for NAFTA nations migrant workers, provide for the enforcement of immigration laws and put out of business those who undermine law abiding business owners like me.

I expect foreign migrants to respect the process my elected government provides for them to enter and for NAFTA nations to pull their weight(Mexico).

We need migrant workers that want to follow the law and we need a government to provide for and enforce those laws. That is what is NOT happening.

You're right. Unfortunately what you proposed was killed in DC.

The only way for incresed enforcement would be implementing a legalization program that recognizes there are an estimated 12 million immigrants living in the shadow of the law. It's not practical nor in our country's economic interest to deport them all.
For all the noise about "amnesty" from nationalist critics, the fact is that the existing status quo amounts to a tacit amnesty for the vast majority of undocumented workers.

Enforce the laws? For every raid or two, there are hundreds of employers that get away with it and the workers knows the chances of getting caught are slim.

Nothing will change.

[SPROCKET]

I just listened to a Senator (Biden?) refer to those who oppose illegal immigration as xenophobes. I guess we've discovered the price of betrayal is 12million votes. At some point the masses of Americans who want to live in America and not Aztlan need to kick our "betters" to the curb and let them know we don't want to be buried under the mass immigration of a foreign culture.

Frankly, if Mexico sucks so much, it's people need to get their **** together and have a revolution. I suspect one of the undercurrents that drives our government's rediculous immigration policy is the knowledge that without illegal immigration and the remitences it brings, Mexico would degenerate into chronic civil unrest, if not outright collapse in a matter of years.

[Ordie]

Frankly, if Mexico sucks so much, it's people need to get their **** together and have a revolution.

Be careful of what you ask for.

You might end up having a refugee crisis.

[mohica]

The only way for incresed enforcement would be implementing a legalization program that recognizes there are an estimated 12 million immigrants living in the shadow of the law.

There is a word that describes what you are proposing - AMNESTY.


It's not practical nor in our country's economic interest to deport them all.

1)You have to right a wrong at some point so you start by sealing the border and you know what I am offering. If you have a better way to immediately stop border trangressions, by all means. I am talking real world solutions, not talking points.

2)Then pass laws to make in incumbent upon local authorities to hold ILLEGALS until the feds come get 'em and ship them out.

3) At the same time, institute a guest worker program that does NOT include any fast track provisions towards US citizenship, if at all.

One of the mistakes is people thinking the Mexican worker is here for any other reason than work. Many do not want to assimilate into our society, don't care to learn english, live in enclaves of their own people, and have a complete disregard for our laws, borders, and culture. They are here for two things, work/money and of course the benefits of our welfare programs.



For all the noise about "amnesty" from nationalist critics, the fact is that the existing status quo amounts to a tacit amnesty for the vast majority of undocumented workers

True to some degree, but you would feel better if we just handed them legal status? In essence reward them for breaking US law.






Enforce the laws? For every raid or two, there are hundreds of employers that get away with it and the workers knows the chances of getting caught are slim.

Nothing will change.

Only if people are not willing to do what it takes to straighten it out. If you want to take the easy way, let 'em all stay and believe the smoke and mirrors show of the pro-ILLEGALS crowd, then you're correct and nothing will get done.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

You're right. Unfortunately what you proposed was killed in DC.

The only way for incresed enforcement would be implementing a legalization program that recognizes there are an estimated 12 million immigrants living in the shadow of the law. It's not practical nor in our country's economic interest to deport them all.
For all the noise about "amnesty" from nationalist critics, the fact is that the existing status quo amounts to a tacit amnesty for the vast majority of undocumented workers.

Enforce the laws? For every raid or two, there are hundreds of employers that get away with it and the workers knows the chances of getting caught are slim.

Nothing will change.


Pork.

Pork in the sense that items that were not neccessary were added to force amnesty in, its clear as day.

Bamboozle the opposition to amnesty by putting an item to "enforce border security and to build a fence.

The opposition was not stupid.

The gumment hasn't enforced the border along with multiple illegal immigration laws and hasn't funded the fence the way they promised they would.

They were gonna have the whole chicken to themselves and throw a bone at us by: 1) having immigration raids in the weeks and months before the votes took place (lets see if we hear of anymore raids after the failure) 2) promising to enforce border security 3)promising to build the fence and 4) promising to force the supposed 12 million ( I'd wager to say that its more like 30-40) to return to their home countries, even though everytime someone would ask a proponent of the bill about that particular item, they would mumble or slither their way out of the question.

Bottom line, they didn't enforce **** before the bill was introduced and they sure as hell weren't gonna after.

[AZRON]

Be careful of what you ask for.

You might end up having a refugee crisis.

That is exactly what we have right now. Economic refugees.

What would you call a trained refrigeration technician leaving Ensenada for Vegas because of a 2500% increase in wages ?

I've been to Ensenada it's a beautiful place.

What Mexico needs to do but never will is to turn PEMEX into a national corporation like Norway did with STATOIL. A stock company with the Mex. Gov't owning 51% of the stock but professionals running the business.
Instead of the nepotism of the 9% White-Euro types running the business.
STATOIL is a major success for Norway it's now a major player in UK gasoline sales. But we both know the scare tactics anti-Yankee screaming to keep PEMEX FU beyond belief that goes on in Mexiico.
We also both know that the shenanigans pretaining to the pilfering and mis-management of PEMEX led to the devaluation of the PESO three or four times which when it happens kicks the **** out of people like the Ensenada tech and this leads to the economic refugees coming here.

P.S. Posters , research STATOIL for the model of the right way to run a gov't owned corporation and then research PEMEX for the model of the wrong way to run a gov't owned corporation.
PEMEX is soon to be followed by City Oil of Ven.

[ElHombre]

Frankly, if Mexico sucks so much, it's people need to get their **** together and have a revolution.

I'm going to make a wild guess and figure your not an American Indian (please correct me if wrong and in the meantime, this arguement can apply to most folks demanding a revolution). What would you say to all the folks who have entered the US throughout its history? I'd like to see one of these modern-day Nativists demand one of my Irish ancestors to return and starve to death.

Or, given the lack of time travel available, why don't you go into Mexico and help them organize another revolution?

[Ordie]

What Mexico needs to do but never will is to turn PEMEX into a national corporation like Norway did with STATOIL. A stock company with the Mex. Gov't owning 51% of the stock but professionals running the business.
Instead of the nepotism of the 9% White-Euro types running the business.
STATOIL is a major success for Norway it's now a major player in UK gasoline sales. But we both know the scare tactics anti-Yankee screaming to keep PEMEX FU beyond belief that goes on in Mexiico.
We also both know that the shenanigans pretaining to the pilfering and mis-management of PEMEX led to the devaluation of the PESO three or four times which when it happens kicks the **** out of people like the Ensenada tech and this leads to the economic refugees coming here.

P.S. Posters , research STATOIL for the model of the right way to run a gov't owned corporation and then research PEMEX for the model of the wrong way to run a gov't owned corporation.
PEMEX is soon to be followed by City Oil of Ven.

I like the model

Here's my recommendations to fix the Mexican Economy.

Fix Pemex (Need to take care of the Goose that lays the golden egg)
Break - up monopolies and cartels (Create more competition and jobs)
Promote micro lending for small to medium start-ups. (Unleash the entrepeneurs).
Create a corporate flat tax (Allow for more revenue income for the state and reign in tax cheaters) Note: Ireland and Russia had gone this route with positive results.
Transparency in the banking and financial sectors.
Give the Federal Competition Commission (Comisión Federal de Competencia) greater autonomous powers to ban collusion and price setting.Mexico’s economy will never reach its full growth potential, until the government is willing to take on both public and private monopolies, politically connected and protected businessmen, and other vested interests (such as privileged unions) that impede innovation, competition and growth.

This will be an exceptinal challenge given that many of the monopolies and duopolies are partially owned by US interests.

We know Mexican immigrants thrive in a liberal democratic/capitalist enviroment. Especially the large numbers of medium to relatively large companies in Los Angeles founded by immigrants.

The key is re-creating a system of transparency, fairness, and access to capital for the common folk.

[AZRON]

I like the model

Here's my recommendations to fix the Mexican Economy.

Fix Pemex (Need to take care of the Goose that lays the golden egg)
Break - up monopolies and cartels (Create more competition and jobs)
Promote micro lending for small to medium start-ups. (Unleash the entrepeneurs).
Create a corporate flat tax (Allow for more revenue income for the state and reign in tax cheaters) Note: Ireland and Russia had gone this route with positive results.
Transparency in the banking and financial sectors.
Give the Federal Competition Commission (Comisión Federal de Competencia) greater autonomous powers to ban collusion and price setting.Mexico’s economy will never reach its full growth potential, until the government is willing to take on both public and private monopolies, politically connected and protected businessmen, and other vested interests (such as privileged unions) that impede innovation, competition and growth.

This will be an exceptinal challenge given that many of the monopolies and duopolies are partially owned by US interests.

We know Mexican immigrants thrive in a liberal democratic/capitalist enviroment. Especially the large numbers of medium to relatively large companies in Los Angeles founded by immigrants.

The key is re-creating a system of transparency, fairness, and access to capital for the common folk.

You and I are now on the same page now.

As an Angle-American I'm aware of what goes on in the Mexican economy and the U.S. is supposed to bear the cost of being the steam valve for a never ending corrupt economy in Mexico. As you say fix the the monopolies and cartels instead of using my tax money supporting the refugees from those cartels and monopolies.
Calderon knows what needs to be done but how much can he do or what if a Socialist follows him in office ? In the meantime the U.S. must get it's house in order on immigration having ignored it for 20 years.

BTW, Arizona passed and signed a law today to penalize companies hiring illegals. This is the first such law in the U.S.
Effective 1/1/08 all employers must use the new gov't verification computerized system for all hiring.
If anyone knowingly hires an illegal after 1/1/08 they loose their business license for 10 days the first offense and permamently the 2nd offense.
Estimates of 250-600,000 illegal workers in Az.
So basically this cuts back on most hourly type jobs but leaves the day worker cash game still in play.
One owner of 37 MacDonalds complained he can't staff them without illegals. Time will tell and the cost of a Big Mac may go up along with wages.

[Shadowstorm]

That is exactly what we have right now. Economic refugees.

What would you call a trained refrigeration technician leaving Ensenada for Vegas because of a 2500% increase in wages ?

I've been to Ensenada it's a beautiful place.

What Mexico needs to do but never will is to turn PEMEX into a national corporation like Norway did with STATOIL. A stock company with the Mex. Gov't owning 51% of the stock but professionals running the business.
Instead of the nepotism of the 9% White-Euro types running the business.
STATOIL is a major success for Norway it's now a major player in UK gasoline sales. But we both know the scare tactics anti-Yankee screaming to keep PEMEX FU beyond belief that goes on in Mexiico.
We also both know that the shenanigans pretaining to the pilfering and mis-management of PEMEX led to the devaluation of the PESO three or four times which when it happens kicks the **** out of people like the Ensenada tech and this leads to the economic refugees coming here.

P.S. Posters , research STATOIL for the model of the right way to run a gov't owned corporation and then research PEMEX for the model of the wrong way to run a gov't owned corporation.
PEMEX is soon to be followed by City Oil of Ven.


I like the model

Here's my recommendations to fix the Mexican Economy.

Fix Pemex (Need to take care of the Goose that lays the golden egg)
Break - up monopolies and cartels (Create more competition and jobs)
Promote micro lending for small to medium start-ups. (Unleash the entrepeneurs).
Create a corporate flat tax (Allow for more revenue income for the state and reign in tax cheaters) Note: Ireland and Russia had gone this route with positive results.
Transparency in the banking and financial sectors.
Give the Federal Competition Commission (Comisión Federal de Competencia) greater autonomous powers to ban collusion and price setting.Mexico’s economy will never reach its full growth potential, until the government is willing to take on both public and private monopolies, politically connected and protected businessmen, and other vested interests (such as privileged unions) that impede innovation, competition and growth.

This will be an exceptinal challenge given that many of the monopolies and duopolies are partially owned by US interests.

We know Mexican immigrants thrive in a liberal democratic/capitalist enviroment. Especially the large numbers of medium to relatively large companies in Los Angeles founded by immigrants.

The key is re-creating a system of transparency, fairness, and access to capital for the common folk.
I agree with you guys a 100%. Mexico need's to fix PEMEX, because it is falling apart little by little.

[Ordie]

One owner of 37 MacDonalds complained he can't staff them without illegals. Time will tell and the cost of a Big Mac may go up along with wages.

In - n - Out Burger (California Burger Chain) Starts its full time employees with $9 an hour, flexible schedules, paid vacations, free meals, comprehensive training, 401k plan, medical, dental, vision, life and travel insurance coverage.

The food is cheaper and better than McDonalds.
(Ask for the "animal" ; a burger patty fried in mustard, extra pickles, grilled onions, and thousand island dressing)

I don't know how this law will affect employment within the Indian Reservations. Indian nations are sensitive about autonomy and state interference in natural resources and gambling.

[shocker1]

One owner of 37 MacDonalds complained he can't staff them without illegals. Time will tell and the cost of a Big Mac may go up along with wages.
Well, he is my hero for breaking the labor laws to get my Big Mac price down.:bash: As a law abiding business owner I find this self righteous greedy jerk a threat to my business and country.

[AZRON]

In -I don't know how this law will affect employment within the Indian Reservations. Indian nations are sensitive about autonomy and state interference in natural resources and gambling.

Don't know about the Indian Casinos but I think their employees are covered by State Comp. and State Unemploy. taxes and insurance therefore they need to comply.

Serious unanswered question include what if hospitals and power plants violate the law do they go out of business ? Or one grocery store in a chain of 50 or so like Albertsons and Frys , do all the stores go out of business ?

[AZRON]

Somebody ridiculed my statement that 40 families own 30% of the Mexican wealth and to gives some names.

Well lt's start with Carlos Slim who has passed Gates as the worlds most wealthy and his wealth is equal to 8% of the Mexican GNP.

In the meantime a whole bunch of people want me to directly support the poor of Mexico through my American taxes and then throw in the race card if I complain.

[Ordie]

Serious unanswered question include what if hospitals and power plants violate the law do they go out of business ? Or one grocery store in a chain of 50 or so like Albertsons and Frys , do all the stores go out of business ?

What would happen if a US Airways (HQ in Arizona) employee was discovered to be an undocumented immigrant. Does the airline lose its business licence and shut down Arizona flights for 10 days?

I have my doubts this law is enforcible. The powerful business lobby will mostly likely introduce exemptions to this law. Therefore watered down to the point of being irrelevant.