Putin's Arctic invasion: Russia lays claim to the North Pole

[Fenix]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=464921&in_page_id=1811

Russian President Vladimir Putin is making an astonishing bid to grab a vast chunk of the Arctic - so he can tap its vast potential oil, gas and mineral wealth.

His scientists claim an underwater ridge near the North Pole is really part of Russia's continental shelf.

One newspaper printed a map of the "new addition", a triangle five times the size of Britain with twice as much oil as Saudi Arabia.

The dramatic move provoked an international outcry. The U.S. and Canada expressed shock and environment campaigners said it would be a disaster.

Observers say the move is typical of Putin's muscle-flexing as he tries to increase Russian power.

Under current international law, the countries ringing the Arctic - -Russia, Canada, the U.S., Norway, and Denmark (which owns Greenland) - are limited to a 200-mile economic zone around their coasts.

A UN convention says none can claim jurisdiction over the Arctic seabed because the geological structure does not match the surrounding continental shelves.

But Russian scientists have returned from a six-week mission on a nuclear ice-breaker to claim that the 1,220-mile long underwater Lomonosov Ridge is geologically linked to the Siberian continental platform - and similar in structure.

The region is currently administered by the International Seabed Authority but this is now being challenged by Moscow.

Experts estimate the ridge has ten billion tons of gas and oil deposits and significant sources of diamonds, gold, tin, manganese, nickel, lead and platinum.

A Russian attempt to claim Arctic territory was rejected five years ago, but this time Moscow plans to make a far more serious submission to the UN Commission on the Limits of the Continental Shelf. A British diplomatic source warned

that Russia was planning to secure its grip on oil and gas supplies "for decades to come".

He said: "Putin wants a strong Russia, and Western dependence on it for oil and gas supplies is a key part of his strategy. He no longer cares if it upsets the West."

The U.S. state department said the Russian claim was completely unacceptable. "It's an extraordinary idea and I can't believe it will go anywhere," an official said.

A Canadian official called the move a complete surprise.

Green groups warned that the Kremlin claim could devastate one of the world's last unspoilt areas.

John Sauven, director of Greenpeace UK, said: "We think nations should stop searching for new sources of fossil fuel and focus instead on the alternatives - renewables, energy efficiency and decentralised energy systems.

"Only then will disputes over natural resources become a thing of the past."

Ted Nield, of the Geological Society in London, branded Russia's claim nonsensical.

"The notion that geological structures can somehow dictate ownership is deeply peculiar," he said.

"Anyway, the Lomonosov Ridge is not part of a continental shelf - it is the point at which two ocean floor plates under the Arctic Ocean are spreading apart.

"It extends from Russia across to Canada, which means Canada could use the same argument and say the ridge is part of the Canadian shelf.

"If you take that to its logical conclusion, Canada could claim Russia and the whole of Eurasia as its own."

[stuntman]

We will just have to put up a few interceptor missle there and they will stop..

[Bulletproof]

I really like that one: "It extends from Russia across to Canada, which means Canada could use the same argument and say the ridge is part of the Canadian shelf. If you take that to its logical conclusion, Canada could claim Russia and the whole of Eurasia as its own."

[Merfeller]

I think ol' Vlad is starting to lose it. Silly little Judo instructor with a Napoleon complex.

[Canuck Farrier]

Canada could claim Russia and the whole of Eurasia as its own."
[/QUOTE]

Lets git R Donep-) Imagine the Arctic a battlefield.It would be worse that the Russian Front.

[JJC]

If this is true then I say we (the West not only U.S.) should stop treating Russia like a cuddled baby when it comes to relations. If Putin is so bold about his intentions with this supposed plan, it shows that he first doesn't have respect for other world players, and if he doesn't have respect it means that Cremlin doesn't have any fear for their ambitions.

The West is too gentle and careful not to offend Russia in any way; I say the moment that Putin threatened to target Europe with his missiles because of the missle defense issue in Poland etc.. we should have came out strong with outrage for such open rhetoric but we didn't....

[GromGrad]

Being a geologist I can tell you that the Russian geologic community has been waiting for a long time to get their hands on this. I don't see them being stopped and there are a bunch of drawn up plans for economic activity in the area. Some make economic sense some don't but the better technology gets the more wealth you will be able to squeeze out of this place. The Russians are smart here, it is a major major investment in economic future of the country. Also this areas will be the last spot on the earth to have oil and while all the pumps in the middle east and in the united states go dry, this place will probably be one of the last suppliers of oil before we run out...very shortly. For those of you who don't know btw, at current population growth rates we have till 2060 before ALL of the possible deposits of oil on this planet are used up. Ofcourse before that it will not be economically viable to use oil so we will either all kill each other for oil or switch to something else. The big problem is that oil is not just used to run engines but also used to make plastics and other very usefull materials. Can we live with out gasoline? Yes. Can we live without plastic? No.

[Dima-RussianArms]

If this is true then I say we (the West not only U.S.) should stop treating Russia like a cuddled baby when it comes to relations. If Putin is so bold about his intentions with this supposed plan, it shows that he first doesn't have respect for other world players, and if he doesn't have respect it means that Cremlin doesn't have any fear for their ambitions.

The West is too gentle and careful not to offend Russia in any way; I say the moment that Putin threatened to target Europe with his missiles because of the missle defense issue in Poland etc.. we should have came out strong with outrage for such open rhetoric but we didn't....

The West is/was too gentle?!
Wow!
In case that you have lived under the rock for the better part of the last 20 years - the West was anything but gentle with Russia and its interests.
It broke every promise its made, i.e. CFE and eastward NATO expansion, it tried to choke Russia with the financial "aid", etc...

You call that gentle?! The West had a choice to become a friend but it chose to be the a**hole... Now reap what you sew...

For the argument's sake: what can West possibly realistically do to Russia?
Economical sanctions - ha! West has 0 economical influence on Russia.
Military - that is not even funny...

Face it, if Russia really wants it - it will take it and there is not a damn thing besides crying and screaming you can do about it.

[KZ_Finland]

Isn't "Daily Mail" something close to US equivelent of "National Enquirer"?.

Haven't seen these claims anywhere in russian or western news sources other than this one and can't exactly buy into it.

[dimasorokine]

Go Putin Go! Leberate the Penguins and give them a taste of "Freedom" - hey, if the US can invade countries when ever it feels like, break international laws and install it's Missile sheilds on almost on Russia's borders - Russia should do what ever it can to grab all the power and influence it possibly can.

-Dima

[Rifleman]

Being a geologist I can tell you that the Russian geologic community has been waiting for a long time to get their hands on this. I don't see them being stopped and there are a bunch of drawn up plans for economic activity in the area. Some make economic sense some don't but the better technology gets the more wealth you will be able to squeeze out of this place. The Russians are smart here, it is a major major investment in economic future of the country. Also this areas will be the last spot on the earth to have oil and while all the pumps in the middle east and in the united states go dry, this place will probably be one of the last suppliers of oil before we run out...very shortly. For those of you who don't know btw, at current population growth rates we have till 2060 before ALL of the possible deposits of oil on this planet are used up. Ofcourse before that it will not be economically viable to use oil so we will either all kill each other for oil or switch to something else. The big problem is that oil is not just used to run engines but also used to make plastics and other very usefull materials. Can we live with out gasoline? Yes. Can we live without plastic? No.

I geuss you did not get the memo from EIA, they say with no "new" discoveries peak production will not occur until after 2047.

[Bulletproof]

We don't even have the technology to extract the petrol from the arctic. Anyway, even China tried to claim territories in the north and now the commies...

[ArmedPacifist]

Denmark (which owns Greenland) -


but not Hans Island :P

[bigeah]

Go Putin Go! Leberate the Penguins and give them a taste of "Freedom" - hey, if the US can invade countries when ever it feels like, break international laws and install it's Missile sheilds on almost on Russia's borders - Russia should do what ever it can to grab all the power and influence it possibly can.

-Dima

Pinguins on north pole?

roflrofl


For the argument's sake: what can West possibly realistically do to Russia?
Economical sanctions - ha! West has 0 economical influence on Russia.
Military - that is not even funny...
rofl

seriously... why are you make such poor comments?

[dimasorokine]

Pinguins on north pole?

roflrofl

I guess I'm not an expert on Penguins then :(

-Dima

[GromGrad]

I geuss you did not get the memo from EIA, they say with no "new" discoveries peak production will not occur until after 2047.

ummm absolutely not. This memo is based on the 1956 Hubbert curve. It is sooo out of date and its being used is a deliberate ploy to keep investors and the public from panicking. Ask any good honest petroleum geologist, most will say we already hit our peak and even the most stubborn will say we will either hit it this year or next. Even the guys in charge of making sure the investors don't panic, the eternal optimists whose jobs depend on it, will say 2010. Even wikipedia will tell you that peak discoveries happened in 1965 and peak production per capita happened in 1979. The truth is that the future is very very grim.

[JJC]

So how long before the needle drops to empty?....

[GromGrad]

We don't even have the technology to extract the petrol from the arctic. Anyway, even China tried to claim territories in the north and now the commies...

You edited your comment but i will tell you this. If we can get oil by drilling through rock or if we can get to oil by drilling through rock that is under water, which we have been doing for awhile, there is no reason we can't get oil under ice. It is probably more expensive due to having humans out in those conditions and bringing equipment out on ice cutters but the technology is no problem. If you ask me drilling underwater is a bigger accomplishment then drilling under ice. At least you don't need a giant floating mini city to drill on ice.

[GromGrad]

So how long before the needle drops to empty?....


You mean when do we totally run out of petroleum deposits if people keep buying at rising and rising costs and population grows at the rate it's growing? About 2060 not a drop will be left in the earth. The titanic is sinking! Everyone in the know is sweating. Everyone is lying about their reserves, trying to spit on the thin ice to make it thicker so we all don't fall in. Shell a few years ago claimed that 20% of their oil reserves "evaporated", the reality is that they never had that much and those fake numbers what a bunch of the optimistic information is based on.

[bigeah]

i think just that russian president try to get all possible sea trade routes until brash ice under own control. (immagine that all sea trade will switch from suez to north pole sea-streets. you win 2 weeks time and peace from pirats.)

geology and fishing areas are good bonus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Sea_Route

[JJC]

You mean when do we totally run out of petroleum deposits if people keep buying at rising and rising costs and population grows at the rate it's growing? About 2060 not a drop will be left in the earth. The titanic is sinking!

Ye that's what I meant. At the same time I think that all these oil industry corps have an interest to make sure they stay in the business, so wouldn't they have their own honest data to know where they stand and push for ulternative fuel search by that time?..

[GromGrad]

Ye that's what I meant. At the same time I think that all these oil industry corps have an interest to make sure they stay in the business, so wouldn't they have their own honest data to know where they stand and push for ulternative fuel search by that time?..

Yeah they do and nobody gets to see it. Every major oil company has a team whose sole job is this very thing, and these guys let me tell you, they don't sleep well at night. At the same time these companies make a KILLING on petroleum alot more then they could on any kind of alternative fuel so they are milking it for as loooooong as they can., trying to tell everyone...no the house isn't on fire, its just really hot, go back to bed.

[Kilgor]

Its pointless to discuss this, no one is just going give Russia this bounty.

[Kilgor]

Face it, if Russia really wants it - it will take it and there is not a damn thing besides crying and screaming you can do about it.


I would really like to see it try... It isnt the superpower of the 70's anymore buddy.

[GromGrad]

Its pointless to discuss this, no one is just going give Russia this bounty.

No one needs to give Russia any thing. What do you think, the UN's mighty army is going to remove the oil rigs by force? Russia isn't in the position where it really need permission to do much these days. Not trying to win hearts and minds, just trying to stuff the pockets.

[Bulletproof]

In case that you have lived under the rock for the better part of the last 20 years

Sorry we were looking at the downfall of communist.


the West was anything but gentle with Russia and its interests.

Canada is giving a few millions to Russia, to help them get rid of these old nuclear submarines who rusts in the sea. But at the same time you guys building new nuclear subs.


It broke every promise its made, i.e. CFE and eastward NATO expansion, it tried to choke Russia with the financial "aid", etc...

Financial aid you said? Oh you mean all that money who disappeared in the pockets of your corrupted comrades?


You call that gentle?! The West had a choice to become a friend but it chose to be the a**hole... Now reap what you sew...

...lol


For the argument's sake: what can West possibly realistically do to Russia?
Economical sanctions - ha! West has 0 economical influence on Russia.
Military - that is not even funny...

Face it, if Russia really wants it - it will take it and there is not a damn thing besides crying and screaming you can do about it.

Arguments: 1/10 (1 point for the entertainment)

[bigeah]

Its pointless to discuss this, no one is just going give Russia this bounty.

well. defacto russia have it a long time.. from the end of 60-ens.

and hey... i say they can have it.

polar areas needs master who will take care about.
not that bull**** areas where everyone can dump his nuclear trash without to pay.

p-)

[GromGrad]

I would really like to see it try... It isnt the superpower of the 70's anymore buddy.


Don't need to be a super power, just need to a hair stronger then Iraq to do whatever you want. See Iran for further learning.

[dimasorokine]

Bulletproof, why don't you argue his points with some facts rather than posting "lol" and adding nothing interesting to the debate? It looks like you simply have nothing to say.

-Dima

PS: Montreal is fun.

[Bulletproof]

Bulletproof, why don't you argue his points with some facts rather than posting "lol" and adding nothing interesting to the debate? It looks like you simply have nothing to say.

-Dima

PS: Montreal is fun.

If you want to know more about that, take a history book and look for the section about cold war. I don't feel like typing a whole text about what the east and west did against each others during 45 years.

[Lazarou]

"If you take that to its logical conclusion, Canada could claim Russia and the whole of Eurasia as its own."
I, for one, would welcome our new Canadian overlords.

[dimasorokine]

If you want to know more about that, take a history book and look for the section about cold war. I don't feel like typing a whole text about what the east and west did against each others during 45 years.

And there is the flaw - what history books are you reading? American, British, Russian? Facts can be spun to form biased opinions, and history books are full of them.

-Dima

[martinexsquaddie]

on another site a russian going on about this totally owned by somebody who works in the oil business point is
the kit needed to exploit any oil resources that are there is all western as is the majority of the rigs experts and kit working in Siberia now.
Russia does'nt have the tech the kit or the experience to operate there neither does the US lot of the specialized kit is actually dutch or Norwegian

[Thor]

US/NATO will probably start patrolling this part of the Arctic to claim it's international status, and there's nothing Hitl... sorry, Putin will be able to do about it. Russia is a third world country with nukes.

[Bulletproof]

And there is the flaw - what history books are you reading? American, British, Russian? Facts can be spun to form biased opinions, and history books are full of them.

-Dima

You know exactly what I mean, stop posting irrevelant comments like that. Just stick to the basics facts of that period.

[Kaapeli]

No one needs to give Russia any thing. What do you think, the UN's mighty army is going to remove the oil rigs by force? Russia isn't in the position where it really need permission to do much these days. Not trying to win hearts and minds, just trying to stuff the pockets.

It's not by force that economic disputes are handled.
If a nation "outlaws" itself it can kiss goodbye to trade agreements, WTO etc. And then there's the possibility of sanctions and bans.
These reactions from the international community can be more damaging to the economy than the potential gains from not playing by the rules.
It's not fun or profitable being an outcast in the world like North Korea or Iran for example.

[Digimon]

I understand that there are no universally recognized methods for delineating borders in such cases. There is simply no one that can permit or not permit Russia, Norway, Canada, or the US to do anything in these territories since there is simply no legal foundation for it. Hence speaking of it in these terms is useless and empty...Furthermore, Canada has been even more concerned with the US presence in its Arctic waters than with the Russians. Many methods for making the delineation are proposed. Here are at least two different approaches favored by different stakeholders (Russia and Norway prefer the lower, "sector-based" method):

[dimasorokine]

You know exactly what I mean, stop posting irrevelant comments like that. Just stick to the basics facts of that period.

Let's pretend that I don't know what the f*ck you're talking about, please educate me on how the West was "Nice" to Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union.

This is a forum, so silent nods and "you know what I'm talkng about" doesn't quite work.

-Dima

[Xaito]

haha thats a funny story - the west is outraged because it wants the area itself but didn't dare to try to claim it yet - first come, first served thats how it goes in this dog-eat-dog society.

I don't know wtf some people here are talking about putin showing his real intentions - what oh so evil intentions would that be? Improving Russia's financial situation?
there's nobody up there so nobody is harmed when Russia claims this piece of nothing and there will be business opportunities for everybody - Russian energy companies often make deals with other companies (eg. from germany and japan) with the means and know how to do things they can't - like building pipelines through harsh terrain etc.


"It extends from Russia across to Canada, which means Canada could use the same argument and say the ridge is part of the Canadian shelf.

"If you take that to its logical conclusion, Canada could claim Russia and the whole of Eurasia as its own."
too bad that eurasia is already claimed - this mineral rich area isn't ... yet.

[asch]

You know exactly what I mean, stop posting irrevelant comments like that. Just stick to the basics facts of that period.

you are priceless addition to this forum. fill all the emptiness with empty sentences.
keep it up!
p-)

[vryhpyammoadded]

AH HAH! The Russian plans have been exposed. The whole global warming thing was all some commie oil industry plot to melt the arctic ice cap so they could put drilling rigs on the North Pole. And Iraq, the mid East, all must all be some gas price fixing plot too. p-)

On a more serious note... Not a big deal.

[IvanIII]

Its ourswoot

[Merfeller]

Go Putin Go! Leberate the Penguins and give them a taste of "Freedom" - hey, if the US can invade countries when ever it feels like, break international laws and install it's Missile sheilds on almost on Russia's borders - Russia should do what ever it can to grab all the power and influence it possibly can.

-Dima

I hate to ruin your rant, man, but there are no penguins in the Northern Hemisphere.

-A Nerd

[Kroforit]

Its pointless to discuss this, no one is just going give Russia this bounty.

This claim is actually supported by international rules. The floor under ice has to be "continental", not sure what exactly it means but I guess it has be and extention of the continent of the country who's placing the claim. The area can only be extended to economic claims and not to expansion of national borders.
The Russian geological team just finished the survey of the surface and has concluded that it was "continental", so now they will present their facts to international community. Any country that has access to the arctic water regions can place such claim, except for the United States; US hasnt ratified the accord which makes them eligible to place such a claim.

Although Russians have said that they are ready to prove their claim international community is totaly against it, and eventualy this could turn into another "ABM shield in Europe" issue; and looking at how Russians are becoming more indenpendent, they might just disregard the arguments and go ahead with the claim.

[Mu-Meson]

Since we've already got the Russia Strong guys worked up, I think it would only be fair to call on my fellow Canucks. Canada Strong! Eurasia belongs to us!!

[KillerBD]

This thread is getting more and more amusing...

[Anthony91]

Since we've already got the Russia Strong guys worked up, I think it would only be fair to call on my fellow Canucks. Canada Strong! Eurasia belongs to us!!

AMERICA/CANADA STRONG!!!!

[darkstorm08]

AMERICA/CANADA STRONG!!!!

Now only if we could get those darn wells drilled in AK. :bash:

Anyhoo.... its been awhile since we've had a land(ish) grab take place... why not now. Last one there is a rotten egg...

[CG51]

Its ourswoot

LOL!!! You have to have a navy to get up there LOL!!!

[Bulletproof]

AMERICA/CANADA STRONG!!!!

We all know the USA have also interests in the north. You treacherous bastards! You think you can fool us? Acting all friendly, but waiting for an opportunity to stab us in the back:-*$

[Xaito]

By controling the north pole Russia will monopolise Santa Claus

[Flamming_Python]

I don't know what all the hu-ha is all about. A minor issue about Geologists bloats, exaggerates and twists into a frenzy of Russia-Bashing?

This is a scientific claim. Yes it is in Russia's interests that the area is included into the Russian economic space.

No it's not a big deal if it isn't, despite the amount of resources there. Russia has plenty enough of its own untouched minerals & hydrocarbons to exploit, and the Arctic area won't become an issue for quite some decades to come.

By that time, there wouldn't be any more Geologists or International Community to solve these types of issues, it will simply be solved by force.

[Kroforit]

By controling the north pole Russia will monopolise Santa Claus


What...! Mien Christmas is in dangers!

[Flamming_Python]

By controling the north pole Russia will monopolise Santa Claus

Santa Claus has already been monopolised by those damn Finns, or at least I was under that impression :)

[Mishka Zubov]

By controling the north pole Russia will monopolise Santa Claus

Lame excuse! No reason can grasp Russia! :-)



F.I. Tiutchev: "No reason can grasp Russia...", November 28, 1866
No reason can grasp Russia
No strange yardstick can measure her:
For she has this particular state -
That you can only believe in Russia


This was my incompetent translation from Russian:


Ф. И. Тютчев. «Умом Россию не понять...»
Умом Россию не понять,
Аршином общим не измерить:
У ней особенная стать –
В Россию можно только верить.
28 ноября 1866


References:
[1] http://www.ruthenia.ru/tiutcheviana/stihi/bp/281.html
[2] http://max.mmlc.northwestern.edu/~mdenner/Demo/poetpage/tiutchev.html

[kamaz]

if russia invades the arctic we should arm every eskimo.. like this


http://lonelymachines.org/red_dawn/red_dawn11.png

[Kroforit]

US/NATO will probably start patrolling this part of the Arctic to claim it's international status, and there's nothing Hitl... sorry, Putin will be able to do about it. Russia is a third world country with nukes.


Russian northern fleet is being rebuilt and upgraded.

[Chounch McGavin]

Hopefully they fall through the ice

[Kroforit]

Hopefully they fall through the ice


Hahahaha

12345

[Mishka Zubov]

I don't know what all the hu-ha is all about. A minor issue about Geologists bloats, exaggerates and twists into a frenzy of Russia-Bashing?

This is a scientific claim. Yes it is in Russia's interests that the area is included into the Russian economic space.

No it's not a big deal if it isn't, despite the amount of resources there. Russia has plenty enough of its own untouched minerals & hydrocarbons to exploit, and the Arctic area won't become an issue for quite some decades to come.

By that time, there wouldn't be any more Geologists or International Community to solve these types of issues, it will simply be solved by force.

Like this?


"A commission for combating pseudo-science and falsification of scientific investigations, RAN, began publishing its half-annually bulletin «В защиту науки»."
...


source: Russian Academy of Sciencies, 31.01.2007:
http://www.ras.ru/news/shownews.aspx?id=5e2c567b-8cc3-4c17-9d48-c2c7c28fd0f1&_Language=ru

Now, seriously, nothing wrong with it, I am actually aplauding that initiative of fighting pseudo-science and scientific fraud. But some stories from this report are actually funny: http://humanism.al.ru/en/articles.phtml?num=000010 .
:-)

[Bulletproof]

The US didn't sent a submarine patrolling in the north 2 years ago without telling us?

[SOG]

the hippies in america will never let russia destroy such a large nature preserve. we will send our hippies to russia in a official delegation of loud mouth bitches. (i trust you ruskies know what to do with them ;) )

[Briggs]

Well maybe the US can buy Northern Russia...afterall they were stupid enough to sell Alaska...just pump a lot of money into alternative fuel sollutions.

The local news today had this article on a 'air' fueled engine...its an ugly car and it can't go fast. Honda presented its new 'clean' car driving on hydrogen & air in Visby (Sweden)...bugger only hits 160km/hr thats just too slow. Time to get rid of oil dependency for transport.

[Digimon]

The US didn't sent a submarine patrolling in the north 2 years ago without telling us?
p-) well, that was certainly in the news raising the question of Canadian response... As Canadian experts pointed out at the time, in some situations the only way to lay a claim to a territory is military presence.

[Neptune333]

Yeah as others have already mentioned, its not the Russians we should be worried about..

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article341518.ece