Resegregation Now

[J-10]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/29/opinion/29fri1.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Resegregation Now
Published: June 29, 2007

The Supreme Court ruled 53 years ago in Brown v. Board of Education that segregated education is inherently unequal, and it ordered the nation’s schools to integrate. Yesterday, the court switched sides and told two cities that they cannot take modest steps to bring public school students of different races together. It was a sad day for the court and for the ideal of racial equality.

Since 1954, the Supreme Court has been the nation’s driving force for integration. Its orders required segregated buses and public buildings, parks and playgrounds to open up to all Americans. It wasn’t always easy: governors, senators and angry mobs talked of massive resistance. But the court never wavered, and in many of the most important cases it spoke unanimously.

Yesterday, the court’s radical new majority turned its back on that proud tradition in a 5-4 ruling, written by Chief Justice John Roberts. It has been some time since the court, which has grown more conservative by the year, did much to compel local governments to promote racial integration. But now it is moving in reverse, broadly ordering the public schools to become more segregated.

Justice Anthony Kennedy, who provided the majority’s fifth vote, reined in the ruling somewhat by signing only part of the majority opinion and writing separately to underscore that some limited programs that take race into account are still acceptable. But it is unclear how much room his analysis will leave, in practice, for school districts to promote integration. His unwillingness to uphold Seattle’s and Louisville’s relatively modest plans is certainly a discouraging sign.

In an eloquent dissent, Justice Stephen Breyer explained just how sharp a break the decision is with history. The Supreme Court has often ordered schools to use race-conscious remedies, and it has unanimously held that deciding to make assignments based on race “to prepare students to live in a pluralistic society” is “within the broad discretionary powers of school authorities.”

Chief Justice Roberts, who assured the Senate at his confirmation hearings that he respected precedent, and Brown in particular, eagerly set these precedents aside. The right wing of the court also tossed aside two other principles they claim to hold dear. Their campaign for “federalism,” or scaling back federal power so states and localities have more authority, argued for upholding the Seattle and Louisville, Ky., programs. So did their supposed opposition to “judicial activism.” This decision is the height of activism: federal judges relying on the Constitution to tell elected local officials what to do.

The nation is getting more diverse, but by many measures public schools are becoming more segregated. More than one in six black children now attend schools that are 99 to 100 percent minority. This resegregation is likely to get appreciably worse as a result of the court’s ruling.

There should be no mistaking just how radical this decision is. In dissent, Justice John Paul Stevens said it was his “firm conviction that no Member of the Court that I joined in 1975 would have agreed with today’s decision.” He also noted the “cruel irony” of the court relying on Brown v. Board of Education while robbing that landmark ruling of much of its force and spirit. The citizens of Louisville and Seattle, and the rest of the nation, can ponder the majority’s kind words about Brown as they get to work today making their schools, and their cities, more segregated.

[shocker1]

Wow, a ruling that says schools can not make policy decisions based on race. Oh how racist! We must fill our schools based on racial quotas of color. To hell with districts and grades. It is like the magnet schools here, they were compelled to base student quotas on race now they must take students first come first serve. wow how racists of us to not consider race in policy.:cantbeli:

I wonder when they will open up the SBA programs to all based on need and not what minority group you are or not a part of.

[Martial]

Thank God! I have to drive right past a nice elementary school 1/2 mile from my house to bring my kid to a ****ty school 5 miles away in the middle of ****-town.

[Dasein]

So I assume you advocate alternate means of funding public schools, Martial? After all, why should any kid have to go to the ****ty inner city school? Or is it ok if the poor folksgo to the ****ty school? After all, if they deserved a better education, their parents would live in a better neighborhood.

[shocker1]

So I assume you advocate alternate means of funding public schools, Martial? After all, why should any kid have to go to the ****ty inner city school? Or is it ok if the poor folksgo to the ****ty school? After all, if they deserved a better education, their parents would live in a better neighborhood.

When you stop using property tax as the means to fund school systems then we can talk. I would be willing for my Federal or even State taxes to increase and property to go down. To help other systems have more money but when you base it on your property ownership status then you drag down poor elderly, single, infertile people that neither have children in the system. All the while lower incomes folks who never bother gaining proper credit to buy a home pay nothing. As a minority they really should have no problem getting HUD money for that. There is even money to fix up their house with no need to payback. Neighborhood improvement programs are a plenty, you just have to get off your rear.

So spare me the we must spread around the color code way of allocating and make everyone who works in the system pay. Not just people who own property.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Horrors! Are you telling me that if our goal is to eliminate race bias, then we should...eliminate race bias? It's almost makes too much sense.

[California Joe]

Vermont has a backasswards way of funding school sysyems that annoys the piss out of me. All of our property taxes fund education, but they all go to the state and then the state doles the money back to the school districts based on the number of children that are in school there. So in order to get more money for your district you need higher enrollments. Your district could have the highest property tax base in the state, but if you don't have a lot of kids in your local school all of your tax money is sent to another community. It's basically communism.

[mi35d]

Damn you man! Stop thinking logically!

[AZRON]

So I assume you advocate alternate means of funding public schools, Martial? After all, why should any kid have to go to the ****ty inner city school? Or is it ok if the poor folksgo to the ****ty school? After all, if they deserved a better education, their parents would live in a better neighborhood.

Sounds good , as long as you ignore the fact that Washington D.C. has close to the highest , if not the highest $$$$ per student in the entire U.S.

The problem with the schools has more to do with the teachers union's stranglehold on education than on a lack of funding.
IIRC , only one teacher got fired in all of the NYC school system in 2004.
Teacher unions are all about pay , benefits and job protection they have no leadership credentials in the quality of the product they market.
But what the hell, let's just throw more money down the darkhole , that is the Dem Party way !

[joe mama]

Don't you people understand that we need programs that favor and give preferential treatment to certain races because all races are equal and can compete equally and don't need preferential treatment? uh...no...wait a minute...

[Danik]

This guy should keep his opinion to himself.

I can summarize briefly with a conversation that was had with a jewish hippie at NYU: "Hey, in your opinion, what is more important, Diversity or Justice?"
Hippie: "Diversity"

[kamaz]

i could never understand race-based quotas. it just fundamentally seems racist, using the color of a child's skin to determine what school he or she goes to.

Brown decision was about integration, letting minorities into the same schools as whites. How is this in any way repealing Brown? If anything, it reafirms Brown decision by taking out racial barriers aka quotas.

I guess its only racism if against non-whites. Mindboggling that this decision wasnt implemented earlier.

whats even worse is hearing the liberals rant on about how Justice Thomas is an "Uncle Tom" or a "House Nigg-r" for not following the liberal groupthink.

the nerve of these people, who self-proclaim a monopoly on minority rights.

[Big Bad Bob]

here in South Carolina we fund schools with your counties property taxes fund your county schools. This benefits the really populated counties with major cities in them like Greenville, Spartanburg, Columbia, Mrytle Beach and Charleston, but due to the fact that we still have a majority of rural areas and counties those counties subsquently do not have equal funding for their county schools. Some lacking new books, old buildings, some even dont have air conditioning, which here in the deep south is actually pretty serious.

But i give a crap about public education, IMHO it has become state sponsored day care. At present i do not have kids, but when i do me and my wife will be looking for alternate forms of education to keep our kids out of the public school system.

I agree with the courts, why should schools be forced to keep quotas? If segregation is not being intentionally enforced, ie no black or hispanic or whatever can attend here. And the result of imbalance is just geographical, Why should the school system carry the burden of transporting students away from their homes to other side of town just so we get a nice warm fuzzy that are schools have equal racial mix?

This is not a slippery slope to reintroducing segregation. MY God i swear some people have damn chicken little syndrome, a small change and they think the sky is falling!

For one this premise of this argument is what is wrong with public education. Children dont learn better because the child on the left or right of them is a different race. This Social education is garbage and maybe this is why the US school system is substandard. Public education should care more about reading, writing,math, history and science more than a racial quota, and maybe when we have 100% high school graduation rates and 100% literacy rate then maybe we should start caring about racial quota but until then i think we have bigger issues to deal with.

This is just some stump speech for political candidates to run thier mouth about so it looks like the care about race, and bleeding hearts can get a nice warm fuzzy!

ITS F-ING FRIDAY!!

[thscott83]

Umm... read my location. Yeah, Seattle used to force students to bus across town for school because the north end was "too white" for district officials. Students would have to spend hours on the bus to go to a school that they had no local ties to, just because some politically correct bureaucrat implied that they were racist if they didn't sit by people of "color".

Neighborhood schools are better, period.

Despite hyperliberalism here, and being overwhelmed by peaceniks and geriatric hippies, the city is actually very segregated defacto by neighborhood. I grew up around more "diversity" in the suburbs than the part of Seattle I'm in. They will lynch you if you throw a can into the garbage, but don't mention the fact that your neighborhood is whiter than Western Nebraska. Forced busing did nothing to make Seattle more "diverse". If blacks started moving to Ballard, you'd see instantaneous white flight.

Many families left town for neighborhood schools on the Eastside, and other suburbs. The private schools in Seattle thrive. It's ironic that many Seattlites left the public schools to attend LOCAL Catholic neighborhood schools. I grew up in a neighborhood school in a middle class, suburban district, and my friends were very "diverse", but not in the eyes of government (Indians, Blacks, Russians, and Mormons... and as a non-Mormon, that can be a culture shock... I also learned that in a Russian house, you take your shoes off, and don't touch anything... there might be 5 items in the entire house, but they are worth more than you.). Apparently diversity is only skin deep.

I'm a teacher, and students across racial boundaries do a good job for the most part in getting along. It's mostly the parents who you have to worry about having primitive, racist views. It's too bad that they still think that students "of color" (aka black) WANT a handout. How do I tell my black students that though I expect their best, government still believes they should be judged by another standard.

SEATTLE HAS AN ENTIRE PUBLIC SCHOOL CALLED THE "AFRICAN-AMERICAN ACADEMY"....... it's 99% black... isn't THAT racist?

[shocker1]

You see I send my oldest to a Private school. However just like many here have said my property taxes fund the vast majority of education in Georgia. Cobb county gets all my money while the local county has to make excuses every year to raise property tax. I say get rid of all BS taxes and have a flat tax or 25% sales tax on non-food.

[Desk Jockey]

Umm... read my location. Yeah, Seattle used to force students to bus across town for school because the north end was "too white" for district officials. Students would have to spend hours on the bus to go to a school that they had no local ties to, just because some politically correct bureaucrat implied that they were racist if they didn't sit by people of "color".


"Busing" was a disaster in Boston during the 70's, so I am told and read, and it is not because it is a Charlestown or South Boston racist thing, it was a stupid policy. Forced integration and all.

[Martial]

At the nearby PUBLIC middle school they make parents buy certain school supplies. So mom takes kid to Wal*Mart and kid picks out the pink notebook and the My Little Pony pencils or whatever. First day of school they take up all of the supplies and randomly re-distribute them so the kids whose parents bought ****ty supplies don't feel slighted. ****ing communists.

[kamaz]

At the nearby PUBLIC middle school they make parents buy certain school supplies. So mom takes kid to Wal*Mart and kid picks out the pink notebook and the My Little Pony pencils or whatever. First day of school they take up all of the supplies and randomly re-distribute them so the kids whose parents bought ****ty supplies don't feel slighted. ****ing communists.



you serious? the parents can sue the school. no doubt about that.

you gotta be kidding.. jesus.

[Andrew Chalmers]

There's really no easy solution to this problem... you risk de jure discrimination on one hand (allowing race to be a controlling factor) or de facto segregation by going to the other extreme (no race allowed).

There's no easy solution and the Court is both right & wrong - the lingering effects of the ugly racial past remains (even if we assume that society is race neutral now)... the problem isn't going to go away if people just adopted the idea that "we'll start to be fair now" if an entire segment of the population that can be identified by race remains underprivileged. OTOH - categorically placing people by their "Race" also sets up a problematic system of institutionalizing race... ick

[seraosha]

At the nearby PUBLIC middle school they make parents buy certain school supplies. So mom takes kid to Wal*Mart and kid picks out the pink notebook and the My Little Pony pencils or whatever. First day of school they take up all of the supplies and randomly re-distribute them so the kids whose parents bought ****ty supplies don't feel slighted. ****ing communists.

And the teacher who gets a pittance as her paycheck ponies up the cash to buy supplies for the kids whose parents buy nothing.

[kamaz]

There's really no easy solution to this problem... you risk de jure discrimination on one hand (allowing race to be a controlling factor) or de facto segregation by going to the other extreme (no race allowed).

There's no easy solution and the Court is both right & wrong - the lingering effects of the ugly racial past remains (even if we assume that society is race neutral now)... the problem isn't going to go away if people just adopted the idea that "we'll start to be fair now" if an entire segment of the population that can be identified by race remains underprivileged. OTOH - categorically placing people by their "Race" also sets up a problematic system of institutionalizing race... ick



this has some weight to it, its true.

what we as a nation must avoid is 2 things.

1. using racial quotas to favor one race over the other, which is in essence, racism. pure and simple

2. buy into a false notion that we are all equal as people, which while true de jure, is in fact very false de facto.

France has such policy, where the republic officially recognizes everyone as equal and does not acknoweldege the factual differences in terms of income, opportunity and education, where huge, HUGE gaps exist between whites and non-whites.

so we must find a balance between these 2 extremes in order to have a just, racist-free environment that gives people, black or white, an equal opportunity to succeed and have good foundations for social mobility.

[PsychoMantis]

This guy should keep his opinion to himself.

I can summarize briefly with a conversation that was had with a jewish hippie at NYU: "Hey, in your opinion, what is more important, Diversity or Justice?"
Hippie: "Diversity"
Please tell me you curb stomp him. I know alot of my Asian friends that wont get accepted into College because they met their "Racial Quota"

[Shadowstorm]

Is it me or this country heading backwards.

[Thor]

I can see why parents over there send their kids to private schools.

[Shadowstorm]

Or home schooling, because the public schools are f**ked up over here and I can tell you stories.

[Danik]

I can see why parents over there send their kids to private schools.

Yea, its very easy for senetors and childless hippies, or hippies w/ children that advocate and pass these fantastic quota systems, living in their suburban 99% white communities with a 1% minority presence in their high schools. For them its all theoretical, for the people on the ground like me, I invite those folks to send their kids to a NYC public school. Its not all the fault of justice inept senetors but also the advocates, such as hippies, and black "leaders" who like to say things such as "oh noes alls them standardz is keeping our black kids out of school".

Heres somethin the "reputable" Journal of Blacks in Higher Education had to say about my college:


Critics of reforms at the City University of New York over the last eight years are suggesting that the emphasis on standards has caused the number of black students at CUNY's elite schools to plummet. And for that reason, the reforms may not be worth it.

For one, theres nothing elite about any CUNY schools, and whats even more interesting is that my CUNY is the most ethnicaly diverse college in the whole country, it has been that way for years, we have students from everywhere, every nationality, every race, every religion, YET only the black students are struggling? I mean what else can we blame? Why dont the other people struggle, including the African students? You want to blame it on public high schools? I went to one, why arent I struggling? Why not just admit that the fantastic quota system has alowed students without the capabilities to perform into the institution instead of finding scapegoats?

[kamaz]

For one, theres nothing elite about any CUNY schools, and whats even more interesting is that my CUNY is the most ethnicaly diverse college in the whole country, it has been that way for years, we have students from everywhere, every nationality, every race, every religion, YET only the black students are struggling? I mean what else can we blame? Why dont the other people struggle, including the African students? You want to blame it on public high schools? I went to one, why arent I struggling? Why not just admit that the fantastic quota system has alowed students without the capabilities to perform into the institution instead of finding scapegoats?


dude, let me tell you something, i went for 2 yrs to Brooklyn Tech, one of the 3 'elite' NYC high schools. It was a mixed school, tons of Russians, tons of Asian and tons of black kids.

I can tell you that because of the quota, about 10-15 % of the black students were bused there, who had no business being there, academically wise. It was surreal, on one hand you have asian and other students that studied their ass off to pass the entrance exam, that are good students, and then you have a few hundred 50cent types that kept mugging people and hanging around in hall ways. I got mugged in that school several times by the quota kids.

Not making this into a racial thing, but the quota system did nothing to advance these kids from the ghetto, all they did was hang out, smoke pot and mug the asian kids.

The principal, Lee McCaskill was a real douchebag too, he was the main advocate for this quota BS. some of those kids didnt know how to tie their shoes, and had no business being in an 'elite' HS. Why do some kids need to study and take exams, while others slip by based on the color of their skin?

[Danik]

Exactly. If it gave the right kids the chance to succede it would be worth it, all it does is throw criminals in training in with kids that need an enviornment that fosters learning, not robbery.


I think NYC is the perfect case. I had a guy come in from a big financial company to talk to the class back in HS, he was still learning to READ!!!! but he had the job, because we wouldnt want to appear racist. I think when we as a generation grow up, any one that screams racism will be smited, that sh_t doesnt faze me. In my experience the most blatantly racist and anti-semetic people are blacks and hispanics.

[SOG]

but you see whats going to happen is all the black kids from one ghetto will go to a local school and that local school will fail miserably. so if you spread them out then you lessen the impact in one area. also politiclly speaking, it looks bad to have a school packed full of black kids that are failing and fighting.

i mean we have crappy schools with white kids in trailer trash ghettos, but you know, they are white, so we cant count that.

[sarcasm off]

all aside, when the law was passed back in the day it had a real purpose, racism, now its just used to hide a failing eyesore.

california teachers union mafia. OUCH.

[Abolith]

california teachers union mafia. OUCH.

soooo true. a family member just retired 3 weeks ago after 20 yrs in the public school system teaching... last yr she made 87K and her retirement package is one of the best I have ever seen, and yes she was from a "Gehtto" school. money and teacher pay is not the problem.. it's the freaken useless parents who could care less and expect the system to raise their kids... [/rant]

[PsychoMantis]

but you see whats going to happen is all the black kids from one ghetto will go to a local school and that local school will fail miserably. so if you spread them out then you lessen the impact in one area. also politiclly speaking, it looks bad to have a school packed full of black kids that are failing and fighting.

i mean we have crappy schools with white kids in trailer trash ghettos, but you know, they are white, so we cant count that.

[sarcasm off]

all aside, when the law was passed back in the day it had a real purpose, racism, now its just used to hide a failing eyesore.

california teachers union mafia. OUCH.
Why should we infect a good,promising school with the problems of a bad one? The real question should be "How can we solve this problem without getting the other schools contaminated?"

[kamaz]

I can tell you as a former immigrant that economic level has nothing to do with keeping generations of black kids in poverty cycles, it all has to do with mentality and ambition.

The liberal-sponsored mentality is that the states owes you something if you're black. Are you lazy and dont study enough? Its ok, because quotas get you thru the door, and you dont have to put the work in like others. This creates a mentality of dependence and failure, resulting in a cycle of poverty, under achievement and failure.

My family came to US with $500 in their pockets, and never had any quota advantages or anything else except for 6 months of welfare help during our first year in the States, and we are now upper middle class. Its all about your ambition and work ethic, not your skin color and quotas. Ive met soo many blacks who hate the quota and hate being treated different because theyre black.

[IraGlacialis]

when you think about it, weren't the policies that the Supreme Court struck down were pretty racist in themselves? To not allow someone to come into school just because they were white and didn't meet the racial guidlines sounds a lot like discrimination.
Plus, sometimes it seems that many minorities who scream for busing and affirmitive action seem to at the same time self-segregate.

So what if a school is like 95% white? As long as there is equal opportunity, I see no problem.

Now there is the issue about majority black schools in the intercity being less than standard. The are two solutions that come from this. The most obvious one is for cities to stop trying to force interate schools, and focus on improving the current ones. The other is for the people that are whining to be discriminated against to move to a school district that is more reliable. There is a chance that there are nice places affordable to live in with a good school district nearby.

A few people I knew were surprised at my reaction to this, and my opposition to affirmative action, considering my race. My answer is that to have equal opportunity is one thing, to force quotas is anpthor. This the isn't ****ing 60's in Mississippi.

[shocker1]

The other is for the people that are whining to be discriminated against to move to a school district that is more reliable. There is a chance that there are nice places affordable to live in with a good school district nearby.
Your on track except this. One can not expect people to relocate, as most in the situation you describe could not afford it. However during my research in to public grant monies and SBA loans. I found many minority favored programs to improve ones existing home.

Also those parents who live in the public housing and the low end neighborhoods need to get off their ass and do something. Help fund the school with a monthly fee. Heck they pay no property tax for the most part and/or receive thousands of dollars in assistance from social programs already. Why not require money from those who pay no property tax? Since most districts in the country get most of their funding that way. The ones having the most children pay little or no monies into the school system. Bad policy and very unfair to everyone.

[SOG]

soooo true. a family member just retired 3 weeks ago after 20 yrs in the public school system teaching... last yr she made 87K and her retirement package is one of the best I have ever seen, and yes she was from a "Gehtto" school. money and teacher pay is not the problem.. it's the freaken useless parents who could care less and expect the system to raise their kids... [/rant]

**** she made a lot! no teacher is worth that, and i have fond memories of 99% of my teachers.

parents fault to an extent yes, id say alot actually, but in some cases also the teachers. many teachers do not like their jobs or are simply not good at it. for teachers, i think they need some level of oversight ie being reviewed by the students then the reviews need to be looked at carefully by the administration to see where they can better improve.

but your right, a lot of crap parents send their kids to school to be raised, then the kids come home and are raised by the tv, crap music and equally stupid kids. in some cases parents just have a hard life and have to work to provide a living, in many other cases parents are just damn neglectful and should be kicked.


Why should we infect a good,promising school with the problems of a bad one? The real question should be "How can we solve this problem without getting the other schools contaminated?"

oh i agree, notice i was ranting about what we do and why its stupid.

solve the problem? you cant. it really is that simple. the problem doesnt start at the school, it starts in the home. my mom was a san diego school teacher for 15+ years, she worked with the mentally disabled, angry, pissed etc. its really ****ed up, 90% of the "mentally angry" kids had total **** parents who didnt care about their kids or schooling. were talking criminal neglect here. utterly sad.

as for schools with large amount of failing kids, it runs with the territory. bad neighborhood, **** school. pretty much runs hand in hand. the law mixing kids up and spreading them out actually does work to some extent. bad apples who suddenly find themselves around privaleged well to do pricks often pick up their game and actually try to academically achieve. but more often then not they simply seek out their own and form a "click" ie a group of similar persons.

my solution in california would be to stop spreading around stupid students (scratching at the disease only makes it worse), push teacher reform with regular surveys. fail to act or improve results in disciplenary actions not only on the teachers but also the principal/administration as well. basically make the system carry an ounce of responsibility. i also believe although this may be a little contraversial but: parents keep popping out kids and neglecting them. i believe if a student is having social trouble ie fitting in, fighting etc then their parents should be contacted. if the parents are found to be non-caring, neglectful etc, then they should be held criminally responsible for neglect and abuse. one thing that tortured my mom as a teacher was the parents never coming to talk to her when she scheduled them to. she knew the parents were bad apples and had no way, shape or form of bringing the fight or responsibility to the parents. IE, in most cases you cant go to jail for being a bad parent unless your kid hurts someone else which then brings your parenting and control into question.

basically it comes down to: everyone needs to be accountable. im not saying be ruthless and go after people, but we need to make an effort. the students, teachers, administration and parents must all carry their load. if one part fails, it will screw up the other parts therefore weakening the whole chain.

and i can tell you right now, aint gonna happen. the teachers union will never let teachers be scrutinized, only played as victims in a defunct system. the city will never let you go after bad parents or instill a set of laws against bad parenting. too many open ends, accusations, court loads etc. were going to live in the chaos we created until we hit bottom like a tapped out drunkard then we will cry and install some finger in the dyke measure to continue on. thats reality anyway.

only thing that will make a difference is people who care and do something about it.

[IraGlacialis]

Your on track except this. One can not expect people to relocate, as most in the situation you describe could not afford it. However during my research in to public grant monies and SBA loans. I found many minority favored programs to improve ones existing home.
Yeah, you got a point there. Yet, at the same time, with the quota deal, you might as well say to a person of a certain race, no matter how able they are to, that they would have to move unless they want to commute 30 minute just because the school's quota has been filled (yes that was slightly unrelated to the point you made).
Plus, the biggest whiners seem to do nothing but whine. Nothing to help their community. Especially the ones such as Sharpton and Jackson that have a lot of money that could be used to inprove those schools, just use the their wealth to further their pissy agenda. Improve, don't ignore, the dilapidated schools. And the community as well.
Seriously, if a school is all black (by de facto) and is a well running school, or is all white (by de facto) yet allows anybody, as long as they live in the district, come in, then what is the problem?

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Vermont has a backasswards way of funding school sysyems that annoys the piss out of me. All of our property taxes fund education, but they all go to the state and then the state doles the money back to the school districts based on the number of children that are in school there. So in order to get more money for your district you need higher enrollments. Your district could have the highest property tax base in the state, but if you don't have a lot of kids in your local school all of your tax money is sent to another community. It's basically communism.

And that's a bad thing?

Sorry man but what Vermont does seem very fair and balanced as it should ensure each receives the same funding no matter where they live.

Lets put it like this.

2 kids go to 2 government owned and funded school. 1 kid is the daughter of some local businessman who has done alright for himself. the other is the son of a welder who because of no fault to his own (The job market has been pretty flat so less overtime) lives in a small 3 bedroom terrace house in a working class suburb that is close to work and where the kids can walk to school so a 2nd family car is not needed.

Now if both of these kids go to government schools. Why should one kid receive a better government funded education because she lives in the outskirts in some mansion then the other who lives in a small 3 bedroom terrace house in a working class suburb?

I'm sorry Joe but doing it any other will only create further class conflict. Remember it's not the children's fault their parents are in different jobs. Government should ensure that by the time both kids finish college they have had the same funding and quality of teaching as each other. Do do it any other way IS discrimination.

[SBL]

I'm glad J-10 is keeping a watchful eye on things.

[Calanen]

I think this is a really dishonest way to categorise the Supreme Court's opinion, re the article.

The Seattle School District was allocating placements in schools using the category either 'white' or 'non-white'. Students were then given a place, it is said, depending on the percentage of whites and non-whites at the school, to meet a specified quota....

Now come on people, that's just a no brainer that you cannot do that in 2007 and it violates the 14th Amendment. There is nothing remarkable about this decision.

To twist it around and say, that the US Supreme Court wants segregation again is just...crapola. For those who would like to read the 185 page opinion (heh) : http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/06pdf/05-908.pdf

This is a neat summary from the decision of what was actually occuring:

Some schools are more popular than others. If too many students list the same school as their first choice, the district employs a series of "tiebreakers" to determine who will fill the open slots at the oversubscribed school. The first tiebreaker selects for admission students who have a sibling currently enrolled in the chosen school. The next tiebreaker depends upon the racial composition of the particular school and the race of the individual student. In the district’s public schools approximately 41 percent of enrolled students are white; the remaining 59 percent,comprising all other racial groups, are classified by Seattle for assignment purposes as nonwhite. Id., at 38a, 103a.2 If an oversubscribed school is not within 10 percentage points of the district’s overall white/nonwhite racial balance, it is what the district calls "integration positive," and the district employs a tiebreaker that selects for assignment students whose race "will serve to bring the school into balance." Id., at 38a. See Parents Involved VII, 426
F. 3d 1162, 1169–


What if not many white people or not many black people just don't want to live in a particular area - because they just dont....the Schools District shouldn't get to play God and determine the racial mix of the school on the basis that some arbitrary quota of various races meets their utopian ideal.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

As for the decision. Kids should simply go to their closest school.

Anything else is ****ing stupid. And this so called experts will still get their racial/poor mix balanced. Be suprised how many suburbs that border each other. One is dirt poor the other is filthy rich. Build a school between the two and problem solved.

[shocker1]

Yeah, you got a point there. Yet, at the same time, with the quota deal, you might as well say to a person of a certain race, no matter how able they are to, that they would have to move unless they want to commute 30 minute just because the school's quota has been filled (yes that was slightly unrelated to the point you made).

Those government programs are racial themselves. The only place I could put Jewish was other, and some applications I used my Dads Caucasian classification. Thats like being lumped into a whole genre IMHO. They need a mutt class since most Americans of the fairer skins are just that, mutts.

[Briggs]

I got an idea...how about you ethnically intermix and get multi-ethnic kids...that way you can bend the quotas :) I can start picturing it... A White-Black-Native American-Jewish-Irish-Latino child...its like a zorse.

[shocker1]

I got an idea...how about you ethnically intermix and get multi-ethnic kids...that way you can bend the quotas :) I can start picturing it... A White-Black-Native American-Jewish-Irish-Latino child...its like a zorse.
In a thousand years we will be grey colored with black almond shaped eyes.

[Desk Jockey]

I got an idea...how about you ethnically intermix and get multi-ethnic kids...that way you can bend the quotas :) I can start picturing it... A White-Black-Native American-Jewish-Irish-Latino child...its like a zorse.

Already done,if I was to have checked those stupid boxes on college and job applications, it would be other.

Guess I don't get a group? I like Mutt just fine, nice shocker.

And Kamaz is right, plenty, but not enough minorities hate the quota system and want to earn their way into institutions and just plain old f ing work. Asshat activists drown out the sensible folk.

[Hollis]

Unless I am wrong, it is about forced integration. This is not the 50's nor have we lived under segregation for a long time. The court did not reverse itself.

[Calanen]

Their really shouldn't be any groups on college applications or anything else. Assistance should be on economic need, not race. There are a hell of a lot of poor white people in america. For white people that live in a trailer park, left wing essays on whites having all the power, wealth and opportunity doesn't mean a whole lot.

[Calanen]

Unless I am wrong, it is about forced integration. This is not the 50's nor have we lived under segregation for a long time. The court did not reverse itself.

You are absolutely correct. The Court did not reverse itself at all - the article is just a beat up.

If anything the Court only said, you cannot divide people up in school districts on the basis of race, which is unremarkable. There are exceptions to the rule for places which have had forced segregation as part of their history, they get to use quotas to reverse previous discrimination. Seattle is not on that list.

[SOG]

And that's a bad thing?

Sorry man but what Vermont does seem very fair and balanced as it should ensure each receives the same funding no matter where they live.

Lets put it like this.

2 kids go to 2 government owned and funded school. 1 kid is the daughter of some local businessman who has done alright for himself. the other is the son of a welder who because of no fault to his own (The job market has been pretty flat so less overtime) lives in a small 3 bedroom terrace house in a working class suburb that is close to work and where the kids can walk to school so a 2nd family car is not needed.

Now if both of these kids go to government schools. Why should one kid receive a better government funded education because she lives in the outskirts in some mansion then the other who lives in a small 3 bedroom terrace house in a working class suburb?

I'm sorry Joe but doing it any other will only create further class conflict. Remember it's not the children's fault their parents are in different jobs. Government should ensure that by the time both kids finish college they have had the same funding and quality of teaching as each other. Do do it any other way IS discrimination.

sort of. but your looking at the situation as if it actually worked that way and it doesnt. in THEORY it sounds great. also you are plying a honest case of someone really trying to make a living VS thousands and thousands of lazy welfare receipients leaching off the sytem.

the government/state is simply playing the numbers. you have more numbers so we give you more money. alright, that works to an extent. BUT, what about oversight, responsibility and results?

with a leading population comes greater responsiblity to utilize the money with which you are given. however in those areas, there is a CLEAR case of disregard and neglect for appropriated resources. the parents are pumping out kids on welfare and neglecting them. the teachers are going nuts because the kids are socially disruptive and unable to learn.

joe (i think) is contending: why do we have to pay for your ****ed up kids. they arent doing better with more money, so why enable them to receive more when others can produce better results?

its the same situation as welfare. giving someone the money to better themselves is one thing. giving someone money to continually leach off of, is another. in the case of schools, you have a lot of leaching with no accountability or results.

so the consensus is: your funneling money for a good cause down the drain with no results. your running a failed charity yet insisting on donating. would you donate to that charity? no.

in theory, it sounds good. give to the have-nots so we can all live a better life. in reality, it simply has not worked and has utterly failed. the same stance can be taken with welfare and medical insurance. sounds good in theory, but will it work on such a mass level. what works in sweden, denmark, finland etc, may not work in china, usa etc.

[California Joe]

We actually have the highest per capita tax burden of any state in the union. My contention is that if I have less kids in my local school, my bloody property taxes should go down or at least not skyrocket like they have. The system as it is set up should work well, in theory. But in practice it's killing us.

[IraGlacialis]

In a thousand years we will be grey colored with black almond shaped eyes.
And no hair. :|

Their really shouldn't be any groups on college applications or anything else. Assistance should be on economic need, not race.
I am in full agreement with you about that.
However, hypocritical as it may be, that won't stop me from pulling out the race card for scholarships while that standard still exists. It's not like I am mediocre at school and riding solely on my minority status (I graduated with college prep & college credit). It's just that in this case practicality outweighs personal convictions.

[Hollis]

We actually have the highest per capita tax burden of any state in the union. My contention is that if I have less kids in my local school, my bloody property taxes should go down or at least not skyrocket like they have. The system as it is set up should work well, in theory. But in practice it's killing us.


In Oregon, the school funding system got way out of proportion. Some schools could were almost broke and actually had the highest property tax rates per $1000.

Other schools had tons of money to spare. It was bases on assessed valuation in the school taxing district. Not on a state wide funding per student. That change with a So-called tax revolt. In some ways it help moved school funding in a fair direction, it also crippled schools.

I think we are still paying for the "trickle down" economics of the '80s.